tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post111547140470723938..comments2024-03-28T19:23:37.979-05:00Comments on Althouse: Dylanology.Ann Althousehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115696102516984272005-05-09T22:35:00.000-05:002005-05-09T22:35:00.000-05:00Came to all this late on a slow computer. Just tw...Came to all this late on a slow computer. Just two dumb comments:<BR/><BR/>1) Ann writing about a particular song as Richard dreams about it is a flat-out case of telepathic communication, only proving that at SOME level those joined together can never be put asunder.<BR/><BR/>2) That said, eavesdropping on the postmortem of someone else's marriage through Dylan songs is kind of embarrassing.ambahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12042450225428891273noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115658133887592052005-05-09T12:02:00.000-05:002005-05-09T12:02:00.000-05:00Lmeade: You know that was the passage I was lookin...Lmeade: You know that was the passage I was looking for that was just out of my grasp when I keyed in "soothe."Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115655165818201092005-05-09T11:12:00.000-05:002005-05-09T11:12:00.000-05:00"BTW, Dylan has never used the word "soothe" in a ..."BTW, Dylan has never used the word "soothe" in a song."<BR/><BR/>True! He did, however (and please don't take this personally), compose the following:<BR/><BR/><I>Now I wish I could write you a melody so plain<BR/>That could hold you dear lady from going insane<BR/>That could ease you and cool you and cease the pain<BR/>Of your useless and pointless knowledge</I><BR/><BR/>Now if someone could just tell me when it was he purportedly repudiated his faith...Meadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03316388500723034455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115649598695057122005-05-09T09:39:00.000-05:002005-05-09T09:39:00.000-05:00Jim: I agree. Those are great albums. I played "Ne...Jim: I agree. Those are great albums. I played "New Morning" constantly back when it came out. "Blood on the Tracks" too. I remember the morning it came out, hearing "Tangled Up in Blue" on the radio for the first time. I get chills now remembering it.<BR/><BR/>But that early set of records, I listened to when I was a teenager, and they are deeply embedded in me. They meant so much when they came out. They were so different from everything else and opened up new ways to think about talking to people through song. I spent hours trying to understand what the hell he was trying to tell me. By contrast, "New Morning" was soothing. (BTW, Dylan has never used the word "soothe" in a song.)Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115648183115967152005-05-09T09:16:00.000-05:002005-05-09T09:16:00.000-05:00The Dylan topic got me thinking. I listened to tho...The Dylan topic got me thinking. I listened to those Dylan albums from the middle 60s for hours and hours. Looking back, I don’t think they are his best songs. They were too indulgent and repetitive. Just too long, really. Dylan's two best albums, in my opinion, are "New Morning" and "Blood On The Tracks" <BR/> On “New Morning” he’s singing with the same weak but soulful voice that we hear in “Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands,” and he’s playing with Al Kooper, which is good. And, he’s short and sweet. He's never been as amusing as he is in "If Dogs Run Free, Why Not me?" He’s even wholesome in “Sign on the Window.” (“Build me a cabin in Utah. Marry me a wife. Catch Rainbow trout. Have a bunch of kids that call me Pa. That must be what it’s all about.”<BR/> Blood on the Tracks is also well crafted and amusing. "Flowers on the hillside bloomin' crazy. Crickets talking back and forth in rhyme. Blue rivers runnin' slow and lazy. I could stay with you for ever and never realize the time. I looked for you in Honolulu, San Francisco and Ashtabula…”JZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06058503888667076896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115603805330665362005-05-08T20:56:00.000-05:002005-05-08T20:56:00.000-05:00RLC: hmmm...I'm bettin' on Rupert Brooke ( if only...RLC: <BR/><BR/>hmmm...I'm bettin' on Rupert Brooke ( if only to tar him with the whole First World War! Feh!),<BR/><BR/>but Emily Dickenson...that's a funky feminista kinda choice...I like it!<BR/><BR/>Can we name Vonnegut "poet-in-residence" in Dresden?Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791314877257904422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115598758007612322005-05-08T19:32:00.000-05:002005-05-08T19:32:00.000-05:00Mark: And thanks for your contributions. Congratul...Mark: And thanks for your contributions. Congratulations on your son's graduation!<BR/><BR/>Ron: That reminds me of J. D. Salinger's question (in "For Esme"?), Who was the better war poet, Rupert Brooke or Emily Dickinson?Richard Lawrence Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01951947957345891398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115523701004283152005-05-07T22:41:00.000-05:002005-05-07T22:41:00.000-05:00I think the distinction between fiction and truth-...I think the distinction between fiction and truth-telling is summed up by this old canard:<BR/><BR/>What's the difference between a fairy tale and a war story? A fairy tale begins with "Once upon a time...", while a war story begins with "No shit, this really happened."<BR/><BR/>Now...which is more truthful, the fairy tale or the war story?Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791314877257904422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115520607498964862005-05-07T21:50:00.000-05:002005-05-07T21:50:00.000-05:00Ron: FYI...Dylan isn't my favorite musician. He ma...Ron: FYI...Dylan isn't my favorite musician. He may be in the top five to ten, depending on my mood. But Macca and the Beatles are my absolute favorites by miles. Nonetheless, I think that Dylan, because of his lyrics is special.<BR/><BR/>That's where the Shakespeare analogy comes from, the lyrics. In his 1970 interview with Jann Wenner, John Lennon talked about sitting with Dylan while one of the latter's records was playing. Dylan told Lennon to, "Listen to the lyrics! Listen to the lyrics!" Lennon responded by saying that a song isn't just about its words, but the overall feel. This was what Lennon and McCartney knew and Dylan didn't. <BR/><BR/>This also explains why, during the Rolling Thunder tour of the mid-Seventies, Dylan could completely change the melodies of his most well known songs, at times practically rapping them. Dylan invests usually invests everything in the words. <BR/><BR/>And of course, that's how you can take a Shakespeare play, change the costuming, and have the thing still work, as was true of a production of 'Much Ado About Nothing' set in World War Two-America which my daughter saw a few weeks ago. The words carry the freight.<BR/><BR/>The wedding over which I presided this evening was simple, plain, dignified, moving, and beautiful.<BR/><BR/>Tomorrow another big event: Our son graduates with his Bachelors degrees in History and Philosophy.<BR/><BR/>I've enjoyed this discussion of Dylan, everyone. Thanks, Ann!Mark Danielshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18205344762960756655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115520433610004132005-05-07T21:47:00.000-05:002005-05-07T21:47:00.000-05:00Richard: I think you're lying.(Better say:) Just k...Richard: I think you're lying.<BR/><BR/>(Better say:) <I>Just kidding!!!</I>Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115518862289559842005-05-07T21:21:00.000-05:002005-05-07T21:21:00.000-05:00Thanks for explaining, Ann. Understood, and no har...Thanks for explaining, Ann. Understood, and no hard feelings. <BR/><BR/>Actually, I don't think fiction writing is either lying *or* a special, wonderful way of telling the truth. I think it's just a form of entertainment.Richard Lawrence Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01951947957345891398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115509053905184302005-05-07T18:37:00.000-05:002005-05-07T18:37:00.000-05:00Richard: My point there was that you are a fiction...Richard: My point there was that you are a fiction-writer and in fiction-writing, it's not lying. You can write something on your blog and if it turns out to be fiction, it doesn't hurt your reputation, because you have a reputation as a fiction writer. <BR/><BR/>It's just one of my little opinions that fiction-writing is -- often -- a type of lying, though fiction-writers like to think it's a special, wonderful way of telling the truth. <BR/><BR/>I believe you that the shopping cart thing happened, but I can't remember it myself. Since I haven't thought about it within my current memory, it's news to me and early to have to get over it. Are you trying to deprive me of my natural reaction?Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115508443282021602005-05-07T18:27:00.000-05:002005-05-07T18:27:00.000-05:00Ann: Thank you for mentioning me in the same breat...Ann: Thank you for mentioning me in the same breath as those others. But please get over that shopping cart thing. You don't remember -- there's nothing wrong with that. You know me well enough to know I'm not a liar. It's a very clear memory for me, largely because I have felt remorse over the years for putting you at risk by doing it. Are you trying to deprive me of my rightful remorse? <BR/><BR/>Ron, Mark: Are you sure you want more of the above?Richard Lawrence Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01951947957345891398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115500738283682822005-05-07T16:18:00.000-05:002005-05-07T16:18:00.000-05:00Ann: Yes, I grasp the difficulty...hmmm...well, y...Ann: Yes, I grasp the difficulty...hmmm...well, you could <I>say</I> this your first attempt at fiction...but, yeah, it would be hard. <BR/><BR/>Wouldn't it increase the verisimilitude if people who knew you thought it actually was possibly true? Would this require not just fiction-writing but acting on your part as well? Out of sheer cheekiness, I might argue that it would be an interesting and enlightening adventure, without any real long term consequences. (once the Big Reveal occurs) <BR/><BR/>I am truly mindful of your position; but to waste such a good high folly!<BR/>Drudge, Kos and Reynolds would be at your feet as you could say in your Darth Vader voice, "<B>I</B> am the blogmaster!"<BR/><BR/>You realize, of course, I'm engaging in a bit of wool-gathering sport.<BR/>The weather is nice, and I'm choc-a-bloc full of spring sass that seeks more fun outlets than merely pounding on Dylan.<BR/><BR/>Peace and Love, Doc!Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791314877257904422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115496156767715012005-05-07T15:02:00.000-05:002005-05-07T15:02:00.000-05:00Ron: "Ann: I dunno...it seem like RLC has started ...Ron: "Ann: I dunno...it seem like RLC has started down the road towards blogenfreude already. And besides, the wife can participate in the whole lie making it that much more delicious a fiction! <BR/><BR/>"1987? Perfect! You play the whole thing out for two years, and "reunite" --or break up --during the "New Summer of Love." (it was twenty years ago today...)"<BR/><BR/>The thing is <I>he</I>'s a fiction-writer. I'm not. Different rules of credibility apply to us. He can lie about stealing a shopping cart or actually steal a shopping cart and emerge unscathed. I don't play the fiction game. If I'm lying, I'm actually lying.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115495212399429162005-05-07T14:46:00.000-05:002005-05-07T14:46:00.000-05:00He's Shakespeare with a harmonica and I love him.W...<I>He's Shakespeare with a harmonica and I love him.</I><BR/><BR/>Wow, I couldn't write a line that sums up my Dylan-loathing better than that.<BR/><BR/>Let me clarify: I have mighty, mighty Beatle love, but I would <I>never,ever</I> make Lennon-McCartney comparisons to Rimbaud and Shakespeare. I believe such comparisons hurt our ability to appreciate all artists; do we know who will matter from 20th century art in 50, 100, 200 years? Do we really pay attention to all the people who were admired artistically<BR/>back 100, 200 years ago? We can agree with some of their choices, but a lot of they like will appear strange to us.<BR/><BR/>Even Shakespeare gets redone in modern garb from time to time; even the greatest art must be made into something <I>we</I> can use. But what I feel is great and what the universe must feel? I'm betting not the same.Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791314877257904422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115494144700407892005-05-07T14:29:00.000-05:002005-05-07T14:29:00.000-05:00Richard: I hadn't read that Dylan was now claiming...Richard: I hadn't read that Dylan was now claiming that 'Blood on the Tracks' was based on Chekhov stories. That's typical of Dylan. He's the master of "celebrity as mystery," up there with Garbo and Bowie. The minute you threaten to get close to what he's thinking or writing, he turns the tables on you, "don't he, Mr. Jones?"<BR/><BR/>Ann: As to Mary Travers' reaction to Dylan... <BR/><BR/>I remember taping that interview (with my 8-track recorder, no less) and listening to it several more times. I came away feeling that Dylan had granted the interview because PP&M had covered several of his songs, but that it may have been the last thing he wanted to do. <BR/><BR/>He had Travers on the defensive from the beginning, sort of like he did with Donovan in that documentary. (Or, like he tried to do with the Beatles, after hearing something they'd recorded at about the 'Rubber Soul' phase. He said to them, "So, you don't want to be cute any more?)<BR/><BR/>At one point, Travers started talking to Dylan about the poetry of his lyrics. Dylan almost spat out disdainfully, "Do you write poems?" It seemed the moral equivalent of a baseball player asking a sports writer, "Did you ever play the game?" When Travers said that she did write some poetry, Dylan, as I recall, reacted with a stony silence.<BR/><BR/>The other almost surreal aspect of the interview, I thought then, was that it was like the meeting of Tin Pan Alley and Greenwich Village. Yes, PP&M came out of the same folky milieu in which Dylan had operated. But PP&M were basically a cover-band who most of the time, recorded stuff by other people. They were homogenized folk, Three Dog Night on Hootenanny. Dylan was Woody Guthrie's heir apparent who fused it all with electric guitars and Ginsberg, Rimbaud poetry. <BR/><BR/>Travers simply didn't know what to do with Dylan. I can't say that I can blame her. So, when he objected to her saying that she loved 'Blood on the Tracks,' she reacted as any "pleaser personality" would: She tried to rephrase the compliment that Dylan had so ungraciously rejected.<BR/><BR/>Even though Travers probably shouldn't have done that, I can sort of identify with her. One of my own personality defects--one that has sometimes gotten me into trouble--is being a pleaser.<BR/><BR/>Now the bigger question: Why do I remember stuff like this?<BR/><BR/>I've got to get. I'm presiding at a wedding in a few hours.Mark Danielshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18205344762960756655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115493165403107502005-05-07T14:12:00.000-05:002005-05-07T14:12:00.000-05:00Mark: Personally, I think Dylan belongs with Nancy...Mark: Personally, I think Dylan belongs with Nancy Sinatra, Mike McCartney (Ok, "Mike McGear" to you '60's nerds out there!), and C.P.E. Bach. <BR/><BR/>Tom Waits has an even worse voice and I like him a lot better because he actually has a degree of charm, and is not a dour, self-important pompous ass like Mr. Zimmerman. He may even be a better songwriter, or at least a better poet, not that boomers would recognize that. But, hey, we can agree to disagree.<BR/><BR/>Ann: I dunno...it seem like RLC has started down the road towards <I>blogenfreude</I> already. And besides, <I>the wife can participate in the whole lie</I> making it that much more delicious a fiction! <BR/><BR/>1987? Perfect! You play the whole thing out for two years, and "reunite" --<I>or break up</I> --during the "New Summer of Love." (it was twenty years ago today...)<BR/><BR/>You think your American Idol blogging gets attention? Hah! Just imagine where this reputation-destroying meme goes!! <BR/><BR/>The mind officially boggles.<BR/><BR/>RLC: I have nothing bad to say about Jerry...except that Flock of Seagulls probably has more songs that more people would know and enjoy than the seemingly 800 year history of the Dead. Nope. Nothing bad to say at all.Ronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08791314877257904422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115490756492676322005-05-07T13:32:00.000-05:002005-05-07T13:32:00.000-05:00Richard: What's with Dylan, Woody Allen, and you c...Richard: What's with Dylan, Woody Allen, and you constantly bringing up Chekhov?Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115490431797840802005-05-07T13:27:00.000-05:002005-05-07T13:27:00.000-05:00As I begin writing this, KUT radio is playing Dyla...As I begin writing this, KUT radio is playing Dylan's "Sara" -- and then the song stops in the middle, some kind of technical miscue, and the DJ puts on a different song...<BR/><BR/>I don't even want to touch that.<BR/><BR/>Mark, Thanks for the backup re Dylan. It's interesting, and typical of him, that he's now claiming that "Blood on the Tracks" was actually based on Chekhov stories rather than being autobiographical. (Let's not forget he was always quite the humorist.) <BR/><BR/>Ann, I did think, once the coincidence was brought up, that that line about being friends applied to us. And thanks for the new key to thinking about that dream.Richard Lawrence Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01951947957345891398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115489935941477622005-05-07T13:18:00.000-05:002005-05-07T13:18:00.000-05:00Mark: How lame of Mary Travers to retreat like tha...Mark: How lame of Mary Travers to retreat like that! Surely, should could have made some profound-ish statement about love and pain.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115489817223587012005-05-07T13:16:00.000-05:002005-05-07T13:16:00.000-05:00Correction: You wrote about "Dear Landlord," not "...Correction: You wrote about "Dear Landlord," not "I Dreamed I Saw Saint Augustine," but I believe the paper included a discussion of "I Dream I Saw Saint Augustine." Sorry. Analyze <I>that</I>.Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115489103739799322005-05-07T13:05:00.000-05:002005-05-07T13:05:00.000-05:00Richard: I think that a strong case can be made fo...Richard: I think that a strong case can be made for Dylan as the best artist for the last half of the twentieth century. He did more than distill his times or even just speak for them. He envisioned something different and presented that vision to us.<BR/><BR/><BR/>lmeade: I think that you misunderstood what I wrote about not understanding the Sixties. Or perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. I meant that I didn't understand the romanticization of the Sixties.<BR/><BR/>In going back over the track listing for 'Blood on the Tracks,' I would say I misspoke myself and that really only one of the songs was overtly political, 'Idiot Wind.'<BR/><BR/>For the most part though, 'Blood on the Tracks' is a deeply personal collection, showing a man struggling with the aftermath of a relational break-up. Its poignance can still bring me to tears, especially the mixture of joy and sadness on 'You're Gonna Make Me Lonesome When You Go.'<BR/><BR/>I just remembered an interview with Dylan conducted by Mary Travers (of Peter, Paul, and Mary) when 'Blood on the Tracks' was released. (Travers had a short-lived radio show in the mid-Seventies.) She told Dylan that she loved the album and he seemed almost offended. "How," he asked her, "can you love something that's filled with so much pain?" Travers retreated and said that she "appreciated" it.<BR/><BR/>So,it seems that Dylan intended 'Blood on the Tracks' as more of a personal than a political statement.<BR/><BR/>Dylan, like Picasso or any great artist, has gone through many phases and permutations. That's to be expected: We either grow or we die. Dylan has grown. The overtly political Dylan was replaced by a man who was more introspective. It seems to me that 'Blood on the Tracks' was one expression of that intensely introspective period of his life. <BR/><BR/>But however you classify his songs, I believe that Dylan's lyrics will live on and on. One reason for that is that there is a poetic richness or ambiguity to what he writes. A single line can have implications for politics or our interior lives all at the same time. That's part of what makes Dylan great, I think: His music incorporates big chunks of human experience.<BR/><BR/>He's Shakespeare with a harmonica and I love him.Mark Danielshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18205344762960756655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115488892290617092005-05-07T13:01:00.000-05:002005-05-07T13:01:00.000-05:00Richard: I don't disagree that you can tie your in...Richard: I don't disagree that you can tie your interpretation to that song, I just think that if you take the song and the dream, you could go a lot further down that road of interpretation. <BR/><BR/>"At dawn my lover comes to me<BR/>And tells me of her dreams<BR/><A HREF="http://bobdylan.com/songs/gates.html" REL="nofollow">With no attempts to shovel the glimpse<BR/>Into the ditch of what each one means</A><BR/>At times I think there are no words<BR/>But these to tell what's true..."<BR/><BR/>It doesn't seem polite to say that I saw myself in that dream, and I'll just remind you that when I wrote that Poetry class paper about "Maggie Mae," which you commented on <A HREF="http://althouse.blogspot.com/2005/04/try-to-survive-tornado-with-post.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>, you wrote about "<A HREF="http://bobdylan.com/songs/augustine.html" REL="nofollow">I DREAMED I Saw Saint Augustine</A>."Ann Althousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01630636239933008807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329595.post-1115487001329575592005-05-07T12:30:00.000-05:002005-05-07T12:30:00.000-05:00I don't know, Tamar, I've been experiencing a lot ...I don't know, Tamar, I've been experiencing a lot of web synchronicity lately, like one recently (in email) with Josh Maday of DANCING ON FLY ASH. Maybe it's just because my network of communications is wider, therefore setting up more potential coincidences. But I don't believe in dismissing the eerie out of hand.<BR/><BR/>Ron, Mark: Don't ever say anything bad about Jerry!<BR/><BR/>I consider Dylan the greatest artist of the second half of the twentieth century, considering all art forms and all cultures I know of. True, the second half of that century pales in comparison with the first, but still -- it's been said he advanced his art form 1,000 years. <BR/><BR/>Ann: We always did want an unconventional relationship and now we've got one. BTW, I think my interpretation of my dream directly supports the line "All I really want to do is baby be friends with you" -- making friends with all my fictional personae - but as far as arguing with you goes, "It ain't me, babe."Richard Lawrence Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01951947957345891398noreply@blogger.com