I'm reading "Extend wild camping rights across England, says Dartmoor boss/After the Supreme Court secured the right to backpack camp on Dartmoor, the national park’s chief executive has urged other national parks to be allowed to follow suit" (London Times).
ADDED: I was reminded of this passage in Bill Bryson's "At Home: A Short History of Private Life" (commission earned):
As conventionally related, events were straightforward: in AD 410, their empire collapsing, the Romans withdrew from Britain in haste and confusion, and Germanic tribes—the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes of a thousand schoolbooks—swarmed in to take their place.... The Romans had been in Britain for 367 years and the Celts for at least a thousand, yet now it was as if they had never been.... After the Romans withdrew, some Celts fled to France and founded Brittany. Some no doubt fought and were slain or enslaved. But the greater number seem simply to have accepted the invasion as an unhappy fact and adjusted their lives accordingly. “It didn’t have to involve a lot of slaughter or bloodshed,” my friend Brian Ayers, the former county archaeologist for Norfolk, told me one time as we stood looking at the field beyond my house. “Probably one day you would just look out in your field and see there were twenty people camped there, and gradually it would dawn on you that they weren’t about to go away, that they were taking your land from you. There were no doubt some bloody clashes here and there, but on the whole I think it was just a matter of the existing people learning to adjust to dramatically changed circumstances.”
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25 కామెంట్లు:
We definitely should NOT be doing that in the United States. The problem with allowing open camping on public land and national parks in the United States is that Americans show up.
Open-air camping?
Way ahead of ya, pal,
https://png.pngtree.com/background/20230611/original/pngtree-street-of-tents-in-front-of-a-city-picture-image_3171940.jpg
Their Supreme Court is worse than ours. British subjects don’t have the right to pray or to joke on social media but they have access to green spaces. Yay! Meanwhile their PM is dismantling their autonomy and in pursuit of reversing Brexit.
The Decline and Fall of Western Civilization is happening in the places in was birthed.
"The problem with allowing open camping on public land and national parks in the United States is that Americans show up."
I believe the idea of the tragedy of the commons predates America and Americans. I remember an episode of Rick Steves Travels Europe in which I think he was traveling through the English countryside (could have been Wales.) But you could hike through the country side, including traversing through people's properties provided you both opened and closed the gate on the fence. This must have been 20-25 years ago that I saw this though.
The reason people are allowed (sic) to camp on Dartmoor is because it’s Dartmoor. No one in their right mind would do it. ‘Bleak’ is a serious understatement. I used to go there as a kid to play on the rocks (Haytor) because I didn’t know what misery was.
isn't it INTERESTING, when "national parks" have "landowners"?
MAYBE, the solution; is for the Government to BUY the land they want people to camp on?
"you could hike through the country side, including traversing through people's properties provided you both opened and closed the gate on the fence."
can i picnic in Althouse's back yard? i mean.. If i open the gate?
We used to car-camp on or just off random Forest Service (dirt) roads in California and Washington. My husband had worked at the USFS as a college student and assured me you could do so, provided you packed out everything and didn't have a fire. I have no idea whether he was telling the truth, "telling his truth" (which in this case represents his wishful thinking), or straight-up lying to avoid paying campground fees.
We were never backpackers, so we were always in sight of the road. We stopped, at my insistence, when we camped one night on Bear Canyon Road with our six-week-old firstborn, heard some animal outside rustling through our camp chairs and such, remembered the name of the road, and - again at my insistence - made a mad dash for the car and spent a terribly uncomfortable half-night wondering if instead of being mauled by bears and having our baby eaten like a truffle, we were going to suffocate due to our (or at least my) hyperventilation.
What about latrines? You can't have open camping unless you follow the rule Jamie did -- packing it out -- or you have a civilized and clean place people can use.
"you could hike through the country side, including traversing through people's properties provided you both opened and closed the gate on the fence"
Our National Parks were created for the express purpose of keeping Americans OUT of those spaces. Because once you let Americans in, they absolutely ruin the place for everybody else.
We do not have a proper culture in the United States, and because of that, we have to have National Parks to protect the Earth.
From us.
The thru hikers on the AT are mostly good doobies and they’ll close the gate and pack out their crap and their crap if they have to. Some states like VA make it hard with permits and restrictions on where and when. IMO the rules and restrictions makes things worse for people and the forest…
…In MT used to be you paint the top of the corner post if you don’t want hikers. New land owners sometimes put out Restricted/No Trespass signs along their property like the requirements back east. Those guys get flamed pretty hard and never live it down. I recall the WE GET IT painted on every sign along one ranch…
…the other crap issue is the indulgence of the hikers by the courts. At your own risk doesn’t exist anymore…
Is there a difference between campers and the homeless?
Is there an actual problem with picnickers being subjected to trespassing charges? Or is this just a backdoor for legalizing homeless encampments on private land?
"My husband had worked at the USFS as a college student and assured me you could do so, provided you packed out everything and didn't have a fire. I have no idea whether he was telling the truth"..
from the Bighorns Natl Forest FAQ page:
Q). Where can I disperse camp or boondock?
A). Most Forest service roads have adjacent dispersed camping spots. Camping outside of developed campgrounds is permitted throughout much of the Forest. You are allowed to drive up to 300 feet off of an open road to set up camp, providing it will not result in damage to the land, is in an area that is not signed otherwise, or if restrictions are in place prohibiting that use.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/r02/bighorn/about-area/faqs
Kate said...
"What about latrines? You can't have open camping unless you follow the rule Jamie did -- packing it out -- or you have a civilized and clean place people can use."
That's a problem in England where every piece of private land over an acre is growing food or raising animals for food. You don't want human waste in your cabbage.
"You don't want human waste in your cabbage." Please! In North Korea they still use night soil. And back in the 80's when I was in S. Korea, many farmers still used it as well. I don't know if they still do.
You can, indeed, camp in the National Forests. I have done so many times. Many areas have a small fee for doing so. The biggest restriction is the prohibition of alcoholic beverages, and, of course, marijuana. This makes enjoying a cocktail before bedtime problematic.
When touring out west, we noticed Rangers enforcing a time limit on overnight camping. Apparently, some campers will establish themselves semi-permanently.
We ran into a group with a large yurt in South Carolina. They had been there for 6 months. No time restriction there, I guess.
You meet a few weirdos out there. They're all touching grass.
"you could hike through the country side, including traversing through people's properties provided you both opened and closed the gate on the fence."
can i picnic in Althouse's back yard? i mean.. If i open the gate?
I think it is more like an easement to pass through than an open grant to use the back yard for any and all purposes.
FormerLawClerk said..."We definitely should NOT be doing that in the United States."
We DO do that in the United States. You are free to camp on BLM (Bureau of Land Management) and National Forest lands, within some limited restrictions. I've done a lot of it over the years, out west and in northern Wisconsin.
About 20 years ago, there was a similar discussion and conflict regarding access to "Green Lanes" in the UK. Green Lanes are small dirt roads and paths that crisscross the countryside, often providing access to isolated areas. By law, these are considered public roadways. The issue, of course, was that wide access to motor vehicles led to increased interaction of people with differing ideas of proper use of the roads and pathways. This issue also required the UK courts to untangle. As far as I know all traffic is still permitted.
"My husband had worked at the USFS as a college student and assured me you could do so, provided you packed out everything and didn't have a fire."
No fire? That's not a rule in the Wisconsin National Forests.
I think the "fires" thing is location-dependent. From perplexity:
You can camp along Forest Service roads through dispersed camping, which is generally allowed on most National Forest lands unless specifically posted as closed or restricted. Dispersed camping means camping outside developed campgrounds, typically within 100 to 300 feet of designated Forest Service roads, on durable surfaces without damaging vegetation or blocking roads.
Key guidelines for camping along Forest Service roads include:
Camp at least 100 feet away from water sources, trails, and roads to protect natural resources.
Stay on established roads and use existing campsites or fire rings when possible; avoid creating new roads or campsites.
Dispersed camping is usually free, but some forests may require permits or passes; check with the local ranger station for specific rules and fire restrictions.
Time limits typically allow camping for up to 14 days within a 14 to 30-day period before moving to a new location at least 5 miles away.
Follow Leave No Trace principles: pack out all trash, bury human waste properly, and do not cut live vegetation.
Obey any fire bans or restrictions, especially during dry seasons.
Do not block roads, gates, or trails with your vehicle or tent.
Interesting that during the 8 year savage war for American Independence, Dartmoor was the site of the prison where the King held American prisoners in filth until they were starved to death.
IIR the Brits were the only country whose Army invaded the USA twice and were planning for a third invasion until 1865 when the North survived after Atlanta was surrendered.
"Probably one day you would just look out in your ***downtown, main street, kids' schoolyard, etc*** and see there were twenty people camped there."
Updated it for you.
JSM
More seriously ref Bryson's passage: I recall a study 10 or so years ago that found English men overwhelmingly have Saxon Y-chromosomes and Celtic mitochondria. In other words, the Saxons just ran off the Celtic men (or killed them, or enslaved them, or otherwise kept them from women) and settled down with the Celtic women.
JSM
Now when they say that you can camp out in Dartmoor, do they mean in the national park or in the prison yard?
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