President William McKinley, the 25th President of the United States, heroically led our Nation to victory in the Spanish-American War. Under his leadership, the United States enjoyed rapid economic growth and prosperity, including an expansion of territorial gains for the Nation. President McKinley championed tariffs to protect U.S. manufacturing, boost domestic production, and drive U.S. industrialization and global reach to new heights. He was tragically assassinated in an attack on our Nation’s values and our success, and he should be honored for his steadfast commitment to American greatness.
In 1917, the country officially honored President McKinley through the naming of North America’s highest peak. Yet after nearly a century, President Obama’s administration, in 2015, stripped the McKinley name from federal nomenclature, an affront to President McKinley’s life, his achievements, and his sacrifice....
Obama changed the name to Denali, and Trump opposed the change at the time — "Great insult to Ohio. I will change back!" With this order, he's done what he said he would do — though now it's about recognizing a man as a hero and not about a particular state that supposedly cares a lot about that man. Note that "Denali" was not a person's name, so Trump isn't elevating one state's hero over another.
In fact, "Denali" was just a way to say "the big one," which is, presumably what anyone pointing out the landmark would say if they didn't know what it was called. But it is saying it in the language of Alaska Natives, and to use their language is to honor them as a group. And though the order directs the Secretary of the Interior is directed to work with natives in naming other landmarks, we can see that Trump's idea is to heighten recognition of a man deemed to be a great American hero, and part of making America great again seems to be to proclaim various components of America to be great.
Was McKinley really so great? Great enough to deserve to have his name on our greatest mountain? It's not for me to say, but let me recommend once again this book I read about him: "The President and the Assassin: McKinley, Terror, and Empire at the Dawn of the American Century" (Amazon Associates link).
And here's a picture of him when he was a boy:
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Well as long as Trump is reversing things done by Biden (hear hear--hear the man!) he may as well reverse a few things done by our New Very Light Worker.
Moose’s Tooth name still unchanged.
The Biden Family Crime family - it all happened under Obama.
We will never forget that.
But it is saying it in the language of Alaska Natives, and to use their language is to honor them as a group.
Or to appropriate their culture, depending on what day it is.
The amount of coastal frontage the USA has with the Gulf is almost 3 times as much as the coastal frontage Mexico has with it. Not even considering that Mexico is but one of numerous Central American countries that also have frontage, by that logic alone it should be The Gulf of America.
With all due respect to Ohio, I prefer Denali. Not that anyone asked.
The Gulf of Mexico was given that name 400 years ago. There is absolutely no valid reason to change it.
Speaking of what people used to look like, while watching the inauguration the obvious fact that Vance has a beard struck me. The last president to have a beard was Benjamin Harrison in 1893. So if Vance becomes the next President it will be historic, facial hair wise.
Slavery was instituted 400 years ago too. And North America was mostly controlled by the Spanish and French. And witches were executed and women didn't have the vote. Times change. So do names and customs.
What will GMC do with all of their unused Denali truck nameplates? They are gonna need a lot of GMC McKinley badges ASAP!
I also much prefer Denali. It's just a cooler name.
I read that the Alaska delegation in Congress had been pushing for the name change since the seventies and the delegation is against the latest change back. But Trump is no doubt on to confederate generals.
Natives can still call it Denali but Americans want to call it Mt. McKinley. Most do anyway.
Yes, Mt. McKinley avoids the cultural appropriation trap.
Gulf of America is geographically inclusive and nationally empathetic.
The fact it pisses you off is reason enough. New rules Fredo, cry more about it.
Our neighbor to the south is part of North America. Mexico's southern border prescribes the northern border of Central America.
people are so upset by America. upset we don't automatically apologize for our past 'sins'. I don't care what the name is, but I do enjoy the freak out by those who have normalized hate for America.
Perceptions are changing, and the left hasn't figured it out yet. Trump is trolling them, and they just can't figure it out.
Istanbul (not Constantinople)
Absolutely no one I saw was lobbying for Gulf of America. When the day comes Trump is pronounced senile, they will look back at Gulf of America as a signpost.
Tribes of humans have been conquering, enslaving, and abusing members of other tribes since prehistory.
Had there been an instance of a conquering tribe reversing course and acting on more humane instincts by voluntarily freeing slaves, raising up people that they conquered, honoring the history and culture of the vanquished, until the Enlightenment? The Brits ended slavery early in the 19th century, the US a half century later. Did anyone do similar things earlier? Certainly not in my understanding of human history, but I am open to correction- I do know that the Old Testament called for slaves to be freed during Jubilee Years, but probably not put into practice.
The renaming of Mt McKinley to Denali is a small example of this sentiment, more akin to virtual signaling than any actual benefit; other more recent examples are the change from Fort Bragg to Fort "Liberty," and other military scrubbings of history, as if changing the names will erase the historical fact of slavery. Everybody wants to get into the act.
Western Civilization does have its positive aspects after all.
Will GMC follow suit?
Has Jeep restored the Cherokee brand?
The mountain's natural, visual name is "the big one" no matter if it's called Denali or the "Big One." This is because it's the tallest mountain by topographic prominence over the adjacent landscape in the world. It rises 20,000 feet or 6,000 meters. You see it, you point, you grunt "the big one over there."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denali
So McKinley didn't ruffle Freder's feathers but the gulf did? Is there some hard cut-off date between 20 and 400 years at which point a name, a name like Upper Volta or Burma or Swaziland or Siam or Ceylon or Zaire, becomes fixed? Or is our grumpy resident a selective conservative, wanting to keep some things the same but not others?
Naming things is funny, you never know what'll stick, so who knows especially considering we might have another Republican administration in 2028 the way things are going. I have always considered Mexico part of Central America...regardless the Gulf of America still fits nicely.
If I'm correct Denali is "the Great One" not the big one.
Watching Trump troll you ninnies for the next 4 years is its own special joy.
I still call the Tappan Zee Bridge just that. The Cuomo's had it changed to honor their Daddy, so it is now known as the Mario Cuomo Bridge, but it never will be called that by me.
IMO Trump is renaming to America and McKinley as a prelude to re-renaming For Liberty and everything named or renamed by Clinton, Obama, and Biden.
Tit-for-tat. It's what we now do.
limit drilling in the Gulf of Mexico?
Oh really?
Watch this.
I lived in AK when the name was changed. It took awhile for it to stick, and I still have to double check myself, but the land around the mountain was always Denali "The Great Land".
No one has missed the miles and miles of signposts pointing to Readering's malignancy.
Too bad they don't accumulate into a clever Burma-Shave-style ABAB stanza.
On the clearest days I could see Denali from my front window in Anchorage. In a state that has a magnificent view no matter where you look, Denali is something special.
I don't think anyone in AK except the National Park Service will call it McKinley. Its name wasn't a contentious topic.
Think of it as a counter to the 120 or so geographic areas near China that the ChiComs have renamed in the last few years. Those are disputed by India, Viet Nam, Tibet and the other affected areas, as is the Spratly Islands rename and land-grab, disputed by the Philippines.
Trump isn't grabbing territory (in this case). Just renaming something that touches our coastline.
Enigma-
I agree that we will soon have Forts Hood, Bragg, Polk, etc.
Reluctance to embrace historical names can be a proxy for unfitness for command.
@RideSpaceMountain: Central America is part of the North American continent. "America" applies to everything from the northern Canada all the way down to southern Chile and Argentina.
What about "Gulf of 'Murica"? "I'm proud to be a 'Murican, 'cause..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_America
"Denali" is Koyukon, which is a minority native language in Alaska. Most of its speakers are Canadian.
Next step: Return all military posts to the names they had in 1945.
That's right. Biden's order put sites in the Gulf of Mexico off limits. Hmmm.
Look on the bright side. Mexico is off the hook for all the hurricanes that hit the gulf coast. It'll be America's fault because of global warming... er, climate change! It says it right there in the name, Gulf of America. Coincidence? I think not.
If the people who originally named it Denali were in charge, nobody else would know it exists.
Precedent has been set. The Tappan Zee Bridge was “named for the Native American Tappan people who once lived in the area and the Dutch word for ‘sea’”. Mount McKinley it is.
If the Commanders make it to the Superbowl, can Trump please change the name back to Redskins? Bring back those kick ass helmets too.
Well, gotta say - I've just gritted my teeth through about 10 years of having people changing the meaning of things to suit their agendas and am, by now, fed up with it - this included.
I have to go with Freder on this one. The totalitarian impulse inherent in every government includes a powerful appetite for changing definitions as a surreptitious means of control. Obvious examples are Daylight Savings Time and inflation. Changing the names of things for no good reason is another. Perhaps Freder is beginning to understand the logic of conservatism. Welcome aboard, Freder!
It will be interesting to see what NOAA puts on its maps (NOAA is so politically correct it puts the flags at half-mast if the wind dies down).
How about "The Dixie Chicks" and "Lady Antebellum" who changed their band names to honor wokeness???
I checked. The National Park Service says "The High One." All three are cognates, so not much of a difference IMO.
https://www.nps.gov/dena/learn/education/upload/Denali-The-High-One.pdf
Obama changed the name to Denali, and Trump opposed the change at the time Trump should change every violent inner city "Martin Luther King Blvd" to "Barack Obama Ave."
I propose a "Historical Geographic Names Preservation Act", a piece of legislation intended to restrict the President's extra-constitutional authority to rename long-established military posts, national parks, national monuments, and geographic features with a cutoff date of 2001. In other words, whatever name is associated with a feature appearing on a published U.S., Geologic Survey Map current in 2001 is its name forever barring a Constitutional Amendment to the contrary.
Why are we honoring Eskimos? They're not as culturally risible as American Indians but only because they're not in popular culture. No cowboys and Eskimos. The Eskimos in Greenland are STD infected drunks, according to recent articles. Who knows what they do in Alaska. If it's something good, we would have heard about it.
As long as we're renaming things, let's change the Defense Department back to the War Department.
There's squaw valley and grand teton still to deal with. Squaw means cunt, apparently. Anyway it's warned to be offensive. Cunt in the sense of handy for sex but maybe not worth the trouble otherwise.
Trump changed the name of the mountain back to McKinley, but left the park as Denali. I would have suggested the opposite: leave the name of the mountain as what the natives have called it for eons, but name the National Park “McKinley NP” because that is a creation of the US Government.
I also propose a real 28th Amendment that the several States can support: "The President's authority to offer pardons, commutations, and clemencies is limited to persons who have been lawfully indicted, tried, and convicted by a duly-constituted United States court." In other words, no more Biden-style corruption of the pardon process.
Many people like Obama, so it'd be more politically effective to name them all "Democratic Management Dead-End Street" or the "Boulevard of Broken Dreams."
Bring back Idlewild. JFK was crap.
the OBVIOUS name for it is, was, and will be: The Gulf of the Mississippi
do the math
"The Gulf of Mexico was given that name 400 years ago. There is absolutely no valid reason to change it."
What's so great about 400 years ago?
You realize you are referring a name that began with Europeans colonizing the area. We first see it on Spanish maps from the journeys of Ponce de León (1513) and Hernán Cortés (1519). If the idea is to be respectful to the native people, it's bad. We don't know what they called the Gulf. Changing the name could be regarded as anti-colonialism.
The Prisoner's Dilemma is in force. Tit-for-tat is now the rule of the day. After the last 4 years of insanity, I see no reason for Trump not to exercise the same power so ineptly wielded by his predecessor. Make the bureaucrats dance, even if that's all this does.
But Grand Teton is so big and firm and upright and pointy. It'd pass the pencil test. That name simply cannot change.
I'd prefer Gulf of the Americas. Not that anyone asked.
Hardin, you beat me to the Tetons! I too want to see Trump rename them to the English version. Maybe he can negotiate a tie-in with Race for the Cure.
JSM
Indeed. The recent proposals to return California and southwestern states to Mexico merely shifts from one European colonizer to another colonizer. European slavery in Latin America dates to Christopher Columbus.
Changing the name could be regarded as anti-colonialism.
My husband, in bilingual elementary school in southern CA, had a social studies teacher who refused to call citizens of the US "Americans" because Central and South America also exist and we shouldn't get some custody of the name. She called them (us) "United Statians." Speaking of being anti-colonialist.
I could live with "Gulf of America" or "the Americas" or, as gilbar suggests with some geographic perspicacity, "the Mississippi." I'm also fine with "Mexico." In short, eh.
I agree. I'm no fan of Obama..
But Denali is just fine.
the feud over Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf may still be ongoing
If we are renaming things, how about Monty McMountworth? Or Mr. Bigly?
Slavery is still a cultural tradition in some necks of the plains mostly in Africa. China also has a slave tradition and progression that is mysteriously exempt from empathetic scrutiny. Albinophobia in Democratic America, too.
Changing the name from Mt. McKinley was culturally insensitive to native United States of Americans.
Mount Moose and Squirrel. The Mms have it.
pacwest said…
“If I'm correct Denali is "the Great One" not the big one.”
So Mt Gretzky it is then.
if Denali means "The Great Land". the Mt. need differentiating name; no?
I lived in AK for 50 years, saw the name change, adapted to it. I think Trump should stick to his knitting on this one. I suspect most Alaskan would agree with me. There's a saying in AK. Dont fuck with us or we'll split the state in half and make Texas the third largest state in the US.
They were considering bringing back the old logo, but not the name. But apparently they aren’t going to do it.
So McKinley didn't ruffle Freder's feathers but the gulf did
Renaming Denali did indeed ruffle my feathers, but I commented on that yesterday on another thread.
Trump must be trolling on the Gulf of America thing. As far as I know, the name is subject to international agreement with commissions and such being it is not wholly in US economic zone much less territorial waters. But a good leader gives the disgruntled things to be disgruntled about so they don't find their own things.
What is freaking people out is having an active President.
The name Ä°stanbul (Ottoman Turkish: استانبول; pronounced [isˈtanbuÉ«] ⓘ, colloquially [ɯsˈtambuÉ«]) is commonly held to derive from the Medieval Greek phrase eis tḕn Pólin (εἰς τὴν Πόλιν, pronounced [is tim ˈbolin]), literally 'to the city'
I'll get excited when Turkey changes the name of Istanbul back to Constantinople.
We need our voter rolls cleaned up. Citizens only. We need all of Biden's illegal entrants - defunded and deported.
re-naming a Mountain that does not need a re-name is a vanity project - and not worth the time or the blow-back. Also - Did Trump ask the locals in Alaska?
I'm thrilled Trump won - and he's off to a great start - but this one is not good.
If this mountain had been named Mt. Cleveland, for example, Obama never would have changed the name. Trump should name some outcrop in a national park Mt. Obama.
New York? Get a rope.
Los Angeles? Separation of Church and State.
Planted Parenthood? Human rites? What are we, the Aztec empire?
The Washington monument is either in memory of our first president, a celebration of toxic masculinity, or a gay appeal to women's joy.
Squaw Valley (at least the ski area) has already officially changed its name.
Changing the name could be regarded as anti-colonialism.
Pray tell, how?
Ann - excellent.
They need to re-do the song. Denali (not Mt McKinley), or vice versa, I suppose.
@Rocco: No, it's "the High One," so it must become Snoop Dogg Summit.
Denali works. I think that people will still call it Denali, like everybody still call the Tappan Zee Bridge the Tappan Zee Bridge.
You mean, Myanmar.
"The Yuge One." Maybe we can get him to change his mind.
I'll get excited when Turkiye changes its name back to Turkey.
Istanbul (not Constantinople) by They Might Be Giants:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XlO39kCQ-8
Enigma said…
No, it's "the High One," so it must become Snoop Dogg Summit.
<< Willie Nelson has entered the chat. >>
Nice one, Aggie.
This is just a distraction from the real fight concerning the Sea of Cortez vs the Gulf of California.
I’m partial to Mt Rocco myself.
“Denali” rolls off the tongue better than “McKinley” or, even worse, “Mount McKinley”. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone call it “Mount Denali.”
I guess it's good to get this stuff out of the way on the first day so that it is behind us in the future. The next Democrat will just change it back, but we won't have to think about it until then.
...
Okay, so I forgot about the lawyers, who are going to tie everything up for the next ten years.
Changing the name of the Gulf along the south coast of the US is dumb, because It's been the "Gulf of Mexico" for hundreds of years, and there's nothing really wrong with that name. There's no native name for it because the natives didn't understand it as a coherent body of water. (And "Mexico" is a native name, though it originally refers to a people, not a body of water.)
Restoring the name "Mount McKinley" isn't nearly as bad, as it was changed less than ten years ago. Though maybe we could refer back to the Native name and at the same time honor our current President by renaming it "The Yuge Mountain".
"Did Trump ask the locals in Alaska?"
Doubtful. I'm guessing you'd get a 80/20 split. Leave the name as it is.
Sometimes a baby is just a baby, other times it's a fetus or a technical term-of-art socially distant, other times a "burden" to be not so Lovingly aborted and carbon sequestered in a clinic of judgment and labels. Perhaps we can scalp the Mount.
Lyndon Johnson for some reason named the two peaks of the mountain after Winston Churchill, though there actually is a Mount Churchill in the range 300 miles to the east (and another much further south in British Columbia named for one of Winston's ancestors).
Phoenix had Squaw Peak changed to Piestewa Peak (named after Lori Piestewa, the first Native American woman killed in combat while in the US military) by AZ Governor (Big Sis) Napolitano (a former partner in the firm I retired from). It kinda caught on, but mostly the freeway is called the 51. Actual peak renaming has fared better.
Yep. No one ever won a purely defensive war.
Nobody tell him about Mexico Pay on Lake Ontario.
I'll go on calling it Mounty McMountface.
Democrats renamed Columbus Day. They renamed US Army bases. They tried to create 45 new genders.
Gulf of America it is.
"los Estados Unidos Mexicano"
It's easy to play word games with translation, but I think that "The United States of Mexico" is a perfectly valid translation, just as one could translate The United States of America as The United American States in other languages.
Democrats and liberals have no gripes about this as they have been the most prolific name changers in this country, often (usually) against the will of the locals.
I'm with Quaestor, no pardons for the unconvicted should be an amendment. And so should one to end birthright citizenship for the children of non-citizens born here.
Enigma says "The recent proposals to return California and southwestern states to Mexico merely shifts from one European colonizer to another colonizerl" Very true, I've often said the Mexican War wasn't about the US taking land from Mexico but about whether the US or Mexico would get to take it from the Comanches (and Navajo and Hopi and Apaches...) At the time very few Mexicans or Americans lived it the area regardless of how various european colonizers had divided it up on the map
Ft Benning andBragg are eternal names for Paratroopers Rangers and Special Forcs. Intentionally dishonoring them is a criminal act by the Big Crimnal Biden.
Just rode an elevator with a couple from Anchorage, on the way back home. So, popped the question. He thought that changing it back to McKinley was just fine. Couldn’t determine if he were ethnically Native Alaskan or NE Asian. Just sounded American.
Changing the name could be regarded as anti-colonialism.
And "America" is not colonial how? Considering both American continents (or just one, depending who you ask) were named after an Italian cartographer.
Frank Lloyd Wright called us Usonians.
JSM
I had to go to Fairbanks for work a few years ago in the middle of winter. I had a day off, so I drove down to Denali National Park, even though it was closed for the season. Amusingly, you could see Denali from Fairbanks, but when I got to the entrance of the National Park the surrounding mountains were so large that they obscured any view of Denali.
I don't have strong feelings about renaming the mountain, but generally speaking I like taking opportunities to honor native people, so I feel like Denali was an appropriate name.
McKinley was a decent man but, as President, he was distinguished chiefly for his assassination. He was a genuine war hero though. He started the Civil War as an enlisted man and was in the thick of it in many battles. In later life he didn't look like a war hero. Teddy Roosevelt had been in combat for some three hours with the Rough RIders, and he's the one we remember as a war hero. Teddy Roosevelt looked like a war hero. You've got to look the part if you want to be a war hero.....Isn't America named by a whim of fate after some second tier cartographer? I can't work up much enthusiasm for either side of this controversy.
Why did Denali get the works?
That's nobody's business but Trumps.
BTW, just to spin the dial there is a tussle about how to pronounce Denali. Think "France" American vs "France" European. All the cool kids (PBS) call it "Molly from Denali" while Shem Pete, native informant of some renown, pronounces it "Sally from Denali". (pg 212, Shem Pete's Alaska)
- Alaskan
Don't mind the change, but I liked Denali. Reminded me of conjugating in Latin class.
There's the most valid reason of all to change the name, Freder. it will piss off you and the people like you.
"The delegation" is 3 people. So "shits to give" == 0
did any natives even know it was a 'gulf'? or they lived on a 'continent'
Congrats Freder, you have reached the point of names from non literate pre-history. Pick a name for this big blob of land using one of several hundred now extinct tribal languages. The tribes probably thought of the landmass as the entire Earth itself, so it'll be mighty vague. The reason why Columbus didn't name our landmass "North Columbia" is that he found supposed Asian islands (West Indies) not a continent, and he also had no clue that Japan's Eastern ocean existed on the other side of the new continent.
Continuing my "make thelefty heads explode" mood.... Change the name Death Valley to "The Biden Crime Family Pit of Despair".
We name it Gulf Of America. Then we name ThePanama Canal after the first or last American laborer who died there. Or the worst plague. Enough giving our lives away for ingrates.
Same goes for the mostly fake American Indians. No casinos, no tribal lands. Grow up and get a job. Fewer of you will die.
Plus go on a fucking diet.
When was the last time a leftard complained about something a Democrat politician renamed?
Well, that’s touching. What’s the name of your current town? And did they have black slaves, indentured servants, white women treated like slaves, or beat the crap out of their children?
If you don’t know, drop the preening.
I did a biography on McKinley way back in college. A very underrated - and popular - president.
Did the “indigenous” people own slaves? Where did they come from originally, and when? How about their predecessors? Come on. Christian theology eventually frees everyone. Before that, everyone were savages. Thank God for Western Civilization.
Tribes are a mess. Addiction, government dependency. Stop encouraging this garbage life,b
Now hopefully he will change "Salish Sea" back to Puget Sound. (Washington State)
I never stopped calling it Mt. McKinley. That is what I was taught in school and I refused to change in the name of political correctness. I always thought Obama was a moron playing pretend anyway.
So all J6 defendants would have to be tried first?
Bad news Tim. Most graduate school with higher opinion of Obama than McKinley.
Goldenpause said...
“I'll get excited when Turkey changes the name of Istanbul back to Constantinople.”
I’m old school. It should be Byzantium.
Tina Trent said…
“Then we name The Panama Canal after the first or last American laborer who died there. Or the worst plague.”
The William C Gogas Canal.
Per Wikipedia: “He is best known for his work in Florida, Havana and at the Panama Canal in abating the transmission of yellow fever and malaria by controlling the mosquitoes that carry these diseases… However, the measures Gorgas put into practice as the head of the Panama Canal Zone Sanitation Commission saved thousands of lives and contributed to the success of the canal's construction.”
Either that or the Rocco Canal.
Which kind? US of Mexico, or US of America? Or was he thinking that we didn't go far enough in the Mexican war?
I wonder if this has anything to do with the "South China Sea" where they just found a bug that looks remarkably like Darth Vader.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/darth-vader-supergiant-sea-bug-found-south-china-sea/
The "Great Slave Lake" is named after a tribe that the Cree called "the slaves" because whenever the Cree Indians wanted slaves, they would raid these people, who lived beside the lake. This is what they told the first French explorers, anyway.
Big and great mean exactly the same thing when you are talking about a mountain
Ah I resemble that
I lived there too in the 80's and 90's and nobody I knew ever called it Denali, although everybody knew that was the native/libtard-preferred version. You would hear things like: "The storms coming over the range, McKinley's already socked in" or "So-and-so's up on McKinley guiding climbers across Ruth glacier." If someone called it Denali, you knew they were either a tourist or a Party member from Anchorage.
That was my experience, granted 30 years ago, but even natives called it McKinley.
McKinley wasn't even president when the mountain was named for him. He didn't do anything to sponsor any exploration there.
Well, that settles it. LOL!
Sears Tower is still called Sears Tower.
Sometimes he says stuff just to get a rise out of people. It works.
I agree. And I think he throws up enough dust to confuse the opposition. In part, that's me, but I'm not so blind that I can't see the wisdom in some of what he wants to do, and his shrewdness in getting his enemies so worked up that they lose any focus or effectiveness.
Excellent idea. A man who saved thousands of lives, regardless of their nation or identity.
Freder, you left out who named it then. It was those nasty Aztecs, who also liked to chop off their own children's heads, though, in fairness, they generally didn’t carve them up like Thanksgiving turkeys until after the kiddies were dead. So to be really politically correct, let’s call it No, Please Don’t Daddy Bloodwaters.
Several 16th Century explorers had different names for the Gulf. Trump’s pick of the pack would undoubtedly be Golfo de Florida.
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