One is just making sure you actually have a comprehensive list, because, if you’re going to single out certain people for protection and you miss others, then the people you miss are going to be the ones that the incoming Administration is going to target. Let’s say the current Administration pardons twenty or thirty people. It’s not as if there aren’t others who also worked on congressional investigations into Trump, or were part of January 6th prosecutions, or were members of the Mueller team—whoever it is that’s on the Trump hit list. If you are not comprehensive in terms of the list of people that you’re shielding, then I suspect what the incoming Administration is going to do is just go down the line and find whoever’s left, and prosecute them. Because doing that still enables it to do what it aims to do, which is to embarrass people, and make it into a political sideshow. It turns out that you’re not going to get the benefit of avoiding all of these really awful investigations.Then, the other issue is the fact that it might be better to have a public investigation of some of these ridiculous claims so that people can see there’s nothing to them, and can learn how the government actually works, and can realize there’s nothing there. There are some benefits to having investigations when someone’s name is cleared, whereas, if you do a preëmptive blanket pardon, there’s always that question of why they needed it. Was there something that actually was bad that was going to come out? If you keep things open and transparent, you avoid any kind of taint or doubt that someone actually was engaging in something problematic.
That last sentence sounds way too optimistic, because things will never be perfectly open and transparent, and it's hard to see how to avoid any kind of taint or doubt, but Barkow's point is that the blanket pardons will make things seem closed and opaque and will create some degree of taint and doubt. And, as she says, there could still be all of these really awful investigations. You can't even get opacity even if that is what you want.
Not discussed in the interview, but something I'm thinking about is whether Trump will benefit from these proposed blanket pardons. He may end up hurting his own cause weaponizing the government the way it was weaponized against him. If the pardons stop him from doing that, he can excoriate Biden for pardoning those who persecuted him and he will never need to prove that what they did violated any law. Yes, he could, as Barkow says, find targets who were not recipients of a pardon and pursue investigations against them, but he would also have the alternative of saying Biden covered it all up, in which case he can persist in making whatever claims he likes.
Perhaps Biden should stand back and let Trump make more mistakes.
১৫৫টি মন্তব্য:
No mention of the anger this will draw from ordinary citizens that blanket pardons were handed out to the near whole of government?
I think people are seeing the reaction from the left to the assassination attempts on Trump and the successful assassination of Brian Thompson, and they may see how to play the game these days.
Then, the other issue is the fact that it might be better to have a public investigation of some of these ridiculous claims so that people can see there’s nothing to them, and can learn how the government actually works, and can realize there’s nothing there.
Except there are many things there. Which is why the people running Biden want pardons
“Perhaps Biden should stand back and let Trump make more mistakes.”
Where are these more mistakes? He doesn’t seem to be making any mistakes.
"Barlow" in the last paragraph, should be "Barkow".
I think there should be investigations of everything - not necessarily prosecution. Just opening it all up for everyone to see would go a long way to showing - proving - how corrupt the government has been. Name names. Fire corrupt actors.
I see nothing but upside. He should pardon the whole lot. It would be a tacit admission of the rampant illegality of the Biden administration. A confession, if you will. That’s all we want anyway. Not a pound of flesh, but they need to publicly take the first step on the road to recovery. It would save us all a lot of time and money.
Trump won't go after everyone. It's too distracting. But Biden better pardon Liz Cheney, because Trump would rightfully pursue her all the way to SCOTUS. She is a worse human being than Hillary, and that's a high bar to clear.
How about everyone quit, you know, doing crimes? That's probably too much to ask, I guess.
I hope Hunter is aware that his pardon does not cover shooting someone on Fifth Ave. That would be a local crime and not covered by the pardon. He can, however, cheat on this year's taxes so there's that.
"[I]t might be better to have a public investigation of some of these ridiculous claims so that people can see there’s nothing to them, and can learn how the government actually works, and can realize there’s nothing there."
A lot of assumptions being indulged there . . . .
no, this year's taxes were not filed by Dec 1 2024, so that crime is in the future
I don't know if you can convict a Democrat before a DC jury. There was that guy who shot Reagan and a bunch of people in DC. He was found innocent by reason of insanity. Iirc, he now walks the streets a free man. I just hope that if any charges are brought forward that the trials will be held in Idaho.
Ah projection. If Trump does it, it "will be a really awful investigation". Has the professor who uttered that prediction thought about what happened in the last four years? There were some "really awful things" done in the lawfare against the Bad Orange Man--but that's different, because the Democrats did it.
As for pardoning Hunter --and maybe others--for all crimes that may have been committed over a ten year period, all I can say is that it's good to be part of the Nomenklatura.
I'm not a lawyer, but is not a pardoned individual still subject to being called as a witness to possible criminal behavior? And in view of his pardon unable to claim the fifth amendment?
Blanket immunity for what? If you can't identify the supposed crime, how can you grant "immunity". But "blanket immunity" would probably save US taxpayers the federal cost of a protracted investigation, indictments, and trials. Let's go fix our highways and bridges, let's ensure adequate funding for medicare and SSA, let's reduce the overall federal employee personnel count --- how about it guys??
Let's pardon everyone for everything! Fresh start!
The fundamental assumption, that none of those people did anything wrong, is patently false. Just to take one example: Anthony Fauci used a non-governmental email to hide things from FOIA requests, and his deputy did the same and also deliberately used mis-spellings and/or Greek letters to foil FOIA requests.
I think the simplest thing that the Trump DOJ could do is to pull all the "private" email addresses of public officials that have surfaced from the Hunter Biden laptop, various FOIA results, communications with media that have become public, etc., subpoena the full email account contents from Google, and prosecute for every single instance of conducting government business or placing classified documents or material from classified documents, or hiding from FOIA requests.
Get this all out in the open, with speedy public trials, and let's see what exactly our "public servants" have been up to.
Trump should also impose by executive order the immediate firing of any government official who deliberately avoids FOIA through these techniques or others. He should also massively restrict the power of government officials to classify or redact information from FOIA'd documents. Nothing that is more than 50 years old except for weapons designs/capabilites, nuclear doctrine, and technical military capabilities should remain classified.
^ This is the correct answer. Trump hasn't got the stones to actually wield power in an effective manner. It's his downfall.
I am looking forward to a Truth and Reconciliation Commission where anyone that has been pardoned by Biden is brought before a joint House and Senate Commission to review the crimes that they were pardoned for. NO 5th Amendment in their future. Just grill them all for a week and stream on Twitter, since you know the networks won't cover it.
Don't take this question the wrong way (I'm no Liz Cheney supporter), but what crime did she commit?
Trump could just declare the entire lot of them "clear and present dangers to the national security of the United States" and jail them at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba with all the other terrorists.
We don't have trials any more. You're thinking about the past, when we had a Democracy. That time is passed. The President of the United States warned us if we elected Trump, we'd get a dictator and so then we all when out and said, "Hell yeah, bitch."
That's Trump's mandate. Be a dictator and just execute these people.
"Where are these more mistakes? He doesn’t seem to be making any mistakes."
The mistakes would be going too far in weaponizing the criminal justice system against his enemies. He could squander his presidency with all this backward-looking revenge. That's what his enemies are saying they think he will do and it is the proffered justification for the blanket pardons.
I don't think that's how he will use his presidency, but if that is the justification for the pardons, it is also, I'm saying, a reason for not giving the pardons.
We need to be hauling the Democrat Party in front of the Hague and then shooting them out back once the show trial is over.
I can help: witness tampering, destruction of official records, suborning perjury... to start.
They tried to murder Donald Trump.
And you're discussing niceties about legacy and stuff.
He needs to remember that they were riffling through his wife's underwear drawer at HIS house and that they let Crooks get off 8 shots. That's what should be motivating Donald Trump.
Vengence.
Sounds like lawprof Barkow has just about had her fill of these bananas.
Trump is playing Biden and the Democrats with suggestions that he might go after those who conducted lawfare against him. If Biden issues a number of “blanket” pardons, Trump is empowered to pardon everyone he’d like to pardon and the left will be reduced to trying to convince the public that it’s different when a Democrat does it. Trump is playing chess while the left is playing Candyland.
+1
Blanket pardons could be good for DOGE. Obviously, Biden will pardon those on the marquee, but there were lots of career Democrats in the bureaucracy who worked under those namebrands. Those people may not need a prosecution, but if bad acts are found, they can be demoted or transferred to some out of the way desk. And they will be heavily among those trying to impede DOGE for their agencies.
Best of all, those pardoned will not be able to avoid telling all since they will have immunity. Any reluctance will be louder than any investigation. And those writing Biden admin tell-alls won't have any reason not to speak frankly about acts by those covered by the pardons.
If Pam Bondi brings a case, I'd guess it would have to be filed in DC, not Judge Cannon's court. No way she can get a conviction in DC. And liberals will contribute to a defense fund. So Elon and Vivek will be after her for wasting taxpayer money on a frivolous investigation and prosecution.
Blanket pardons are wrong, whether Ford or Biden.
Thanks, Mike.
I would have thought the question for the law professor would have been "Can Biden do this?" not "How can Biden do this in a way that would help Democrats the most?"
It's hard to see Cheney or Schiff or Fauci put on trial and put in prison. Congressional investigations would be better. If Liz, Adam, and Tony are pardoned and deprived of 5th Amendment protection, it could help us to get to the truth. Probably not, as they -- and the media -- are willing and able to lie and deny their way out of anything.
Also, no recognition of the fact that Barack Obama set the precedent in his tenure that the President of the United States can simply order the death of a citizen. Without any trial. Without any charges. He just killed American citizens.
And walking around a free man, talking about how Democrats need to fake out the voters the way those mega-church preachers do it.
Liz Cheney ordered the destruction of evidence in the case of J6 defendants. That's a felony crime.
Covid killed several million people worldwide. If there weren't crimes committed in the creation of the virus (and I believe there were) there were certainly crimes committed, by Fauci and others, in the coverup. I can't believe that no one is going to be held to account.
I would think blanket pardons would lead to some pretty potent attack ads in the 2026 elections.
Investigating criminal activity is not "weaponizing the government against your enemies" no matter how desperately the Democrats want to spin it as they try to hide from the consequences of their actions.
I don't much care about the pardons so long as the investigations continue regardless. The justice system doesn't offer the only punishment for the guilty.
Why not just let the courts decide who is guilty and who is innocent? Isn’t this an admission that the courts can be manipulated, as Biden did with Trump?
" the blanket pardons will make things s̶e̶e̶m̶ BE closed and opaque...'
FIFY (or maybe I'm fixing it for Barkow)
It didn't take long to move from "no one is above the law" to blanket pardon bingo.
Dixcus said: Barack Obama set the precedent in his tenure that the President of the United States can simply order the death of a citizen. Without any trial. Without any charges
Well, i'm Pretty Sure, that our Living Constitution states that that ability ONLY resides in Democrat Presidents.
If a Republican President did that, it would Clearly be Murder
Why would Biden want to protect the people who forced him out of office?
Yes, he could, as Barkow says, find targets who were not recipients of a pardon and pursue investigations against them, but he would also have the alternative of saying Biden covered it all up, in which case he can persist in making whatever claims he likes.
He will do this regardless and when has he ever shied away from "making whatever claims he like.
correct!
They would be required to do like Hilary! did, and have: "No Recollection"
I don't think that's how he will use his presidency, but if that is the justification for the pardons, it is also, I'm saying, a reason for not giving the pardons.
And if he does use his presidency in this way, will you have the basic integrity to admit you are wrong and condemn Trump as harshly as you did Biden?
You're going down swinging, aren't you, Freder?
You really don't care about anything except power to the Democratic Party. People like you are why it is so important, not just for the US, but for the entire world, that the left lose.
Maybe we are seeing a new norm a-birthing.
Maybe from now on, each outgoing President just blanket pardons him/herself and the whole Admin.
It would re-establish the old norm that we don't prosecute the losing side for losing. Which is an important ingredient in the precious "peaceful transition of power." If you think you're going to jail, you are disincentivized from giving up control.
Doesn't do anything for the coordinated state-level prosecutions, but it is a start.
JSM
Let's go fix our highways and bridges, let's ensure adequate funding for medicare and SSA, let's reduce the overall federal employee personnel count --- how about it guys??
If Elon and Vivek have their way, none of this is going to happen. Remember how in his first term Trump always had a comprehensive plan to fix infrastructure. It was always going to be announced in two weeks just like his fix for the ACA (and apparently even after nine years of promising he still only has a "concept of a plan"
That would only work if you could shine the light on the fact, day after day. But the Republicans don't control the media, and they only control a fraction of social media. So, as soon as it happens, it will be quietly put to bed, with no crying. You won't hear about it again, except from conservatives on X, or online. But that audience has already been reached and enlightened. They know already, and have voted accordingly. How to reach the unenlightened, then?
"I don’t see this as, if Biden does it, then that somehow sets the precedent and therefore Trump will do it. I think Trump will do what Trump will do, no matter what Biden does. To me, that is a downside that doesn’t really exist, because I just don’t believe each side plays by the same rules anyway."
This is exactly the wrong answer. Of course, everything that moves the Overton Windows further enhances what Trump does. If Biden hands out blanket pardons to administration officials and others it only increases the likelihood that Trump will do the same and more. Trump can point to Biden's actions as political cover and Democrats' complaints will just look like (and be) partisan hackery. It's sauce for the goose and the gander, etc.
Here's the primary downside to the idea: It creates an incentive to commit a bunch of crimes while in government knowing you're essentially immune. Once Biden grants these blanket pardons it becomes the standard. Trump will of course do the same and it'll be something presidents do going out the door. How is that good for the country? It's not.
Let's review the example you've set, Freder, before getting to your demands.
I wonder if you could pardon an entire zip code.
"That's what his enemies are saying they think he will do..."
His enemies are afraid he's going to do to them what they've already been doing to him.
"He may end up hurting his own cause weaponizing the government the way it was weaponized against him."
As a statement of the general uselessness of legal scholarship in the United States, this is pretty comprehensive. If the previous government is basically the Corleone crime family but without the charm and intelligence, the American legal system would be confessing its total impotence. That would supercharge the drive to declare Trump as the new Caesar, not squelch it. "You're not going to get the swamp legally, so stop trying?" Hah, good luck with that.
Such blanket preemptive pardons are absurd and should be forbidden in a modern democracy. They're a vestige of the medieval "divine right of kings." What's to stop Biden from granting a preemptive pardon to "all Democrats for any/all crimes they have ever committed or will ever commit in the future"?
Such pardons should only be applicable to a very limited subset of people who have already been convicted of specific crimes. This blanket and preemptive use makes a mockery of any reasonable justice system.
Do they really think that's going to work? If you can prosecute President Trump's lawyers but not Biden's caporegimes, a lot of people with a lot of guns are going to take the United Healthcare approach to justice.
A signicant amount of evidence has been adduced and reported in alternative media that the J6 Committee violated laws including subornIng perjury. A bubblemedia law prof would likely be unaware of that.
More importantly, as Trump likely knows, Biden needs the cover of blanket pardons to protect the Biden Crime Family.
The leftmedia continues to focus on what Trump says to avoid covering what Democrats and other TDSers do.
This idea of blanket pardons is a double-edged sword. I don't think the President has this power - to grant immunity where no offenses are cited. Blanket immunity is not in the Pardon Clause.
However, if these so-called pardons are in place, I'd like to see someone like Matt Taibbi (and Co) be given free access to all the docs and data, and lay it out in an easily absorbed format (not X, too chopped up), so we all can see what has transpired in the last decade or so behind the scenes by the administrative state on all subjects related to Trump's campaigns and administrations. If people can't be tried, then there should be no reason not to collect and disseminate the info. So, the cost of the pardons should be transparency.
It's best to ignore lefty female law profs except, of course, Althouse, who is in remission.
OTOH, as Biden likely knows, no Democrat will be convicted in DC.
The evidence over time is the Framers actually intended and even used the power to pardon is largely the way Biden is using it (though its never been extended as far as you imply). Washington pardoned the instigators of the Whiskey Rebellion, even those not charged. Lincoln and Johnson pardoned vast numbers of Confederates not found guilty of any crimes.
Hopefully the election of Trump will demonstrate to Democrats that lawfare is a dangerous business. Hopefully.
If you are pardoned for crimes in a specific window of time but are called to testify about those crimes without being able to resort to the 5th Amendment, and you are found to have lied under oath, can you be prosecuted for perjury for having lied outside the window of time about crimes for which you have been pardoned?
The president hires a hit squad to kill all of the congressmen from the opposition party then he quickly pardons the assassins. Yeah, this is getting into dangerous territory. I think the founders imagined a world where everyone had more or less the same values and religious beliefs. That world never existed and it's worse now than it has been since? The 1920s? 1930s and the rise of Nazism?
Even the Ford pardon of Nixon was done partly because Nixon was the president and the alternative was a grueling legal battle during a time of peak tension in the United States. Handing a ten year blanket pardon to a nonentity like Hunter Biden not only solidifies the presumption of guilt in all accusations about Burisma, leading up to Biden himself, but gives President Trump a chance to ask what else this degenerate meth addict has been doing. Did Rudy Giuliani really have evidence of Hunter abusing children? Did the Bidens contract murder against their political enemies? These are questions you don't have to ask when normal and specific pardons are issued.
Tom Kratman already brought this up in Caliphate, which in retrospect looks like what would have if Islam took over Europe, but in a more moderate and compassionate (?!) way than the ISIS offshoots offer.
You'd think I would be more enthusiastic about the Wake Up America policies of President Buckman, but he's crazy even by my standards, and Kratman confirms this explicitly. It's a major reason to not have trusted President Trump with these kinds of powers to start off his first term.
The erroneous assumption the only reason the pardons are granted is the propaganda’s suggestion that Trump will abuse the justice system. That assumption creates the problem of allowing criminals getting off free because they’re important enough to warrant a pardon.
To continue to frame the issue in the way the propaganda wants is to incentivize more Democrat crime…
Re: Unknown:
I think that's correct, although I've never dealt with that personally. If you think Trump's objective is to put people in jail, sure pardons will frustrate that, but I think his political objective is actually to shine sunlight on the activities of the civil service and thereby expose them to opprobrium and ridicule. Stripping them of the fifth amendment right to refuse to testify only helps. And the other privilege they might claim (executive privilege or deliberative process privilege) is arguably within Trump's control. As is a DOJ that might be willing to prosecute bureaucrats for contempt.
Doctrev: "If you can prosecute President Trump's lawyers but not Biden's caporegimes...."
True. Trump may very well pardon as many of his non-admin hangers-on as he can federally, and use the DOJ civil-rights division to go after their state and bar-association persecutors. These additional proceedings would help tamp things down back into the new/old norm.
JSM
Revenge on the Democrats?
Wow, the FIRST "disadvantage" of blanket pardons cited by this professor is "just making sure you actually have a comprehensive list, because, if you’re going to single out certain people for protection and you miss others, then the people you miss are going to be the ones that the incoming Administration is going to target." How ridiculously shallow and partisan.
Isn't the most serious downside the possibility that Biden would be letting actual criminal misconduct go unpunished, and encouraging future public servants to think that they'll likewise be given a free pass for any criminal misconduct they may commit in office?
Dixcuss, you keep saying this bullshit about Obama "just killing" citizens. Obama and his DOJ relied on:
"Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF, 2001):
The AUMF, passed after the 9/11 attacks, gave the President the authority to use all necessary and appropriate force against those responsible for the attacks or those who harbored them.
The Obama administration argued that al-Awlaki's role in AQAP and his involvement in planning and encouraging attacks against the United States placed him within the scope of the AUMF.
2. Self-Defense and Imminent Threat:
The administration claimed al-Awlaki posed an imminent threat to U.S. national security due to his operational leadership role in AQAP and involvement in plots, including the 2009 Fort Hood shooting and the 2010 cargo plane bombing plot.
Under international law, the U.S. maintained it had the right to act in self-defense against such threats, even if they involved a U.S. citizen."
The administration relied on a memorandum drafted by the Department of Justice's Office of Legal Counsel (OLC), which set out the legal framework for the strike. (ChatGPT)
You may not agree with those justifications, but Obama's actions were not arbitrary and capricious when he took out al Awlaki and his son.
And if Obama's actions set some sort of lawless precedent for unilateral action, please explain why no other such actions occurred under Obama's presidency, nor under Trump's or Biden's.
The reason fish fry is so big on Friday is because the Pope granted fish special dispensation and declared fish is not meat. These preemptive pardons simply prove crimes were committed and laws violated and stretched by powerful people out to stop one man and a massive political movement.
The idea that clemency is needed "because of Trump" is all bullshit. Clemency is needed because these shithead seriously violated the law.
THIS* The corrupt democrat party used lie after lie to destroy Trump. Those lies should come with a price tag.
A coordinated Uniparty regime who cheated in elections to remain in power, violated the first amendment by censoring speech, and then weaponized the justice system against Trump, his allies, and J6 supporters (now political prisoners) needs clemency. Their crimes are MASSIVE.
Fauci's crimes are crimes against humanity. The people who still support Fauci have to live with that, while so many others died.
I don't see Liz getting a pardon. Jill doesn't like Kamala. Liz went on the stump for Kamala. Jill tells Joe, no pardon for Liz.
What Tim said. Lying liar leftists need to lose. and lose and lose and lose.
There is a Peanuts cartoon in which Lucy shows Charlie Brown a paper that states that (I am paraphrasing) she is not responsible for anything that happens in the future. Charlie Brown replies that is a good thing to have. If Biden can pardon people for all crimes that may have happened in the past, why can't he also pardon them for all crimes that may happen in the future? How is it legal to be able to pardon someone of committing hypothetical crimes? If you can't state what the crime is, how can you give someone a pardon for that crime?
That assumption creates the problem of allowing criminals getting off free because they’re important enough to warrant a pardon.
Isn't that the exact same argument that you used to fight Trump's convictions for the last four years. That the charges against Trump should not have even been filed because he was too important to charge with a crime?
"Let's review the example you've set, Freder, before getting to your demands."
Fine by me. Not that I asked you, I asked Althouse.
I agree with you 100%. But unfortunately, that ship sailed in 1974 when Ford pardoned Nixon and nobody challenged it (at least nobody willing to challenge it in court) .
... because he was too important to charge with a crime?
While I won't say nobody argued that, it was hardly the most common argument. For the most part statues and fact patterns were interpreted, when they weren't specifically enacted as in New York, to prosecute Trump when no other person had been prosecuted (and in some cases, officials claimed nobody else would.)
Your reading comprehension sucks as bad as your ability to form an argument. Richard is making the claim that pardons could be given for *future* acts which was not part of the Ford pardon and something nobody has ever claimed to be able to do under the pardon power. It makes no logical sense since such forward-looking immunity could simply be revoked by the next President in the same way existing EOs are routinely overridden.
what is difference between such blanket pardon and amnesty to immigrants by President Order ?
Expired paperwork "misdemeanors" that no one wanted to touch - turned into bogus felonies...
The Private residence of Trump broken into by Soviet-like FBI and fake photos were staged because they didn't have anything but magazine clippings?
Or perhaps the Hillary Clinton/ Fake Steele Dosier - Maddow lie regarding Trump's Russian Collusion! that was not true in any way. Did you read the Mueller report? The mulit-million dollar tax payer funded fraud.
Yes. The perjury happens in the current moment and pardons are only effective for past acts.
Of course there's always the possibility Joe could pardon him again for things he does between 12/1/2024 and 1/20/2025. It's not an unreasonable expectation.
Somehow we need to take this to the USSC and get a definitive statement on what the pardon power covers. I strongly suspect that the Founding Fathers would not have recognized any such thing as a preemptive pardon, especially for unknown crimes that are not even specified by name. They would have let the judicial system proceed with normal arraignment and trial of any offenses until a verdict is rendered. Then and only then could a Presidential pardon be issued to reverse that specific conviction and none other. This is especially important in cases where government workers commit politically-motivated partisan crimes while taking a salary from the taxpayer, but it really should apply to all offenses.
Ford pardoned Nixon and nobody challenged it
=================
who would have standing to sue? Post reporters Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein ?
Another lawyer I like to read (as a columnist) wrote that Congressional hearings can still be held, and given the record of the J6 commitee and ability to "refresh their memoeries" the targets would look even dumber claiming "no recollection." Even civil trials could be used to recover damages on behalf of the DOJ. Ironically, this too was one tack the Left used to go after Trump.
A network of secret prisons and torture sites helped Assad keep control in Syria. Could the same thing work for Trump here in the United States?
what is difference between such blanket pardon and amnesty to immigrants by President Order ?
OTOH, as Biden likely knows, no Democrat will be convicted in DC.
Nor can any Republican count on a fair trial there, or in any of the other one-party shitholes. Perhaps there is a case to be made for Presidential pardons being effective at the state and local level too.
They are building a gulag for dissidents in California, and the sane and free parts of the country need to attack Newsom and the rest of those enemy scum with every weapon we can muster.
what is difference between such blanket pardon and amnesty to immigrants by President Order ?
The main downside is that it'll confirm that the USA is a corrupt banana republic and it cannot be trusted to play fair. Blanket pardons would confirm an absolute double standard versus political opponents: Trump must be prosecuted for everything, even when not actually criminal, while Democrats cannot be prosecuted for anything, even when the facts are unknown.
This will undermine trust and cost the country (or, mostly Democratic states and cities) a fortune over the long term. Any person not suffering from TDS can see this.
Not for those who keep changing their names.
The Democrats are doing it right now to the J6 political prisoners. Trump's pardon cannot come a minute too soon. The government goldbrickers, news-media puppets and parrots, and other nanny-state Democrat scum will take it very personally and scream bloody murder. I don't mind this a bit. I am glad that they are going to get an unmistakable message about the hatred and contempt we have for all of them.
If it hasn’t been challenged in court, the ship hasn’t sailed. The Nixon pardon was done as an attempt to heal the nation by putting Watergate in the rearview mirror after Nixon was no longer in power. The Biden pardons would not be healing. We don’t yet know the extent of the crimes Biden would be hiding.
Don't give the corrupt Democrat Party any ideas.
100% agree
Clinton's sale of the Marc Rich pardon suggests another standard for evaluating Biden's pardon program: did he maximize the Biden family fortune? Apparently there is no legal consequence to the President selling pardons either during or after his term in office, so why not set up an online bidding process? Let those with the most to fear pay the most! And since everyone in the Congress, DOJ and FBI had the chance to bid, no one should mind the complaints of those who didn't bid or bid too low.
I'm betting that Biden doesn't do a damned thing to help anyone except himself and his family. He's a venal, nasty person, but Democrats humiliated him and pushed him out of his campaign. Why would he help them?
That is exactly my understanding. A pardon has to be for a specific act, not for something that may or may not have occurred.
We don’t yet know the extent of the crimes Biden would be hiding.
And it was different in Nixon's case how? Reagan also preemptively granted pardons for the possible crimes committed by his administration over Iran-Contra.
Why blanket pardon innocent people? Innocent people don't run when no one is chasing them.
Remember when Trump said, "Lock Her Up". He didn't did he? She wasn't innocent was she.
My point is there will be Congressional investigations, but Trump won't over play his hand. With Trump's personal history of helping persons and families in need on his dime why would he not be magnanimous. I believe Trump would have freed Hunter sometime before the 2026 midterms.
@Narayanan, one is the trial run for the other.
I thought the word was "transitioning".
Consider the possibility that President Emeritus/Elect is trolling. He puts the names out there, Brandon pardons them, they are forever tainted. But they are not tainted by President Trump, they are tainted by Joe Biden.
Forever after they can be referred to as "Jim Smithers, who was pardoned for unspecified crimes, wants to ..."
It's almost as good as convicting them of something.
John Henry
effinayright:
I would add that if, for instance, FDR had had the ability to precisely target American citizens actively at war against the US, he would not have hesitated to approve killing them. I suspect he would even have approved a strike that killed Tokyo Rose, though she was a woman and a civilian as well as an American citizen: she was actively aiding the Japanese war effort, and that would likely have been enough. The same goes for Churchill and Lord Haw-Haw, who was hanged after the war. Looking him up to check the spelling, I find that he was "an American-born Irish fascist". I found no indication that Truman objected to his hanging.
EffinAyright, now do his 16 year old son.
I understand that it is technically legal as you explained. How many Americans care whether it is legal. It is just not right in the minds of many americans.
John Henry
"Not discussed in the interview, but something I'm thinking about is whether Trump will benefit from these proposed blanket pardons."
Also not discussed in the interview is the crazy notion that some of these folks actually may have done something wrong that warrants investigation, exposure, and punishment.
@Leland, Amnesty just absolves them from the past crime of being here illegally. It doesn't confer citizenship, so they are still here illegally in the future.
What's to stop Biden from granting a preemptive pardon to "all Democrats for any/all crimes they have ever committed or will ever commit in the future"?
The Precrime unit won't go online until sometime in the late 2040s.
The evidence over time is the Framers actually intended and even used the power to pardon is largely the way Biden is using it (though its never been extended as far as you imply). Washington pardoned the instigators of the Whiskey Rebellion, even those not charged. Lincoln and Johnson pardoned vast numbers of Confederates not found guilty of any crimes.
It's an act of generosity and clemency when governments pardon those who rise up against it. Blanket pardons for those in government who commit crimes, often at the behest of the government, are a different matter, and not perhaps something the Founders would have accepted. Arguably, a government unwilling to put its opponents in jail for opposing it enhances liberty, while a government that opposes putting its own subordinates and agents on trial for what they may have done doesn't.
4/1,000,000 in China
3400/1,000,000 in the US
I don't like these numbers any better than anyone else. I think the US is overstated and China is understated. So far nobody has posted any significantly different death rates here. So, unstrustworthy as they may be, they seem to be the best we have.
John Henry
How much more could Biden stand back? He is so absent from American political life that I would request proof of life before paying a ransom on him!
The wicked flee when no man pursueth.
The assumption that DOJ hirelings will do what Trump orders is amusing. We can hope it happens but Trumps agenda was stymied before.
First thing Trump should do is pardon Dr. Jill for unspecified crimes.
Keep 'em guessing ,and denying.
And let's be honest, people like the al-Awlakis are textbook cases against birthright citizenship. He was born here to non-citizen parents who were only in the country temporarily. People like that should not automatically be given citizenship through an accident of birth. Few, if any, other countries would do so, and it needs to end.
The politics will have to wait to see what happens -- what Biden (more likely Jill) does, and then what Trump does. But the pardon power is much in the news because of Hunter. A pardon is only effective if accepted by the person to whom it is issued, and the president can condition the pardon in whatever way the president deems proper. Acceptance may carry with it a public perception of guilt but it does not amount to a finding or admission of guilt unless the pardon was expressly so qualified.
Not much law on the subject, but what there is got a thorough review in Lorance v. Commandant, 13 F.4th 1150 (10 Cir. 2021), which concerned a lieutenant who was convicted at a court martial of murdering two Afghanis. Lorance was sentenced to 19 years and (after he exhausted his direct appeal) sought habeas relief. The pardon was issued during the habeas case, and the issue was whether acceptance of the pardon meant that Lorance was no longer 'in custody.' Being in custody is a requirement for habeas relief. The 10th Circuit found that (i) acceptance of the pardon was not an admission of guilt (if it had been, that would have ended the habeas case); and (ii) even though Lorance was released from prison upon acceptance of the pardon, he still suffered collateral consequences from his conviction (loss of pay, no credit for active service during his imprisonment, no VA benefits) sufficient to establish the 'in custody' element.
In all seriousness, FullMoon, " Pardon Dr. Jill" is a great idea, and one I think Trump would seriously consider. Jill is going to know where most of the bodies are buried, and she has absolutely no future career in national politics, so it would be very much in her best interests to defect from the Obama-Pelosi cabal that threw her and Joe under the bus for a candidate who then went and lost. Trump should magnanimously offer Dr. Jill a pardon in exchange for all telling us who made what decisions over the past four years and who was really pulling the strings.
I assume that Biden is going to croak within the next calendar year, and that might be the perfect time for Trump to announce that out of compassion for the widow, he is pardoning her. He doesn't have to mention publicly the quid that goes with the pro quo, but Jill gets to sleep easier and keep the ill-gotten mansion, the beach house, and the bank accounts, in exchange for turning on people who are (a) actual criminals and (b) back-stabbed her and her husband.
Whatever happened to concerns about "optics"? Most normies regard the granting of a pardon evidence that a crime took place.
Any DIJ “hireling” who defies a Presidential order is in for some rough sledding.
Remember how in his first term Trump always had a comprehensive plan to fix infrastructure.
Remember all those 'shovel-ready' jobs?
When ya get a pardon, it's understood that you committed a crime. You b tainted. Forever, pal, forever.
Not only was Hunter pardoned, he also was able to keep his Dr. with Obamacare.
Tim maquire said:
"Investigating criminal activity is not "weaponizing the government against your enemies" no matter how desperately the Democrats want to spin it as they try to hide from the consequences of their actions."
worth a bold reminder.
Tim maguire said:
"Investigating criminal activity is not "weaponizing the government against your enemies" no matter how desperately the Democrats want to spin it as they try to hide from the consequences of their actions."
And that is correct.
Not how the game is played here, dumbass.
@ John Henry:
"Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, the son of Anwar al-Awlaki, was 16 years old when he was killed in a U.S. drone strike in Yemen on October 14, 2011.
Abdulrahman was born in Denver, Colorado, making him a U.S. citizen, like his father. The strike that killed him occurred two weeks after his father, Anwar al-Awlaki, was also killed in a separate drone strike. Abdulrahman's death raised significant controversy, as he was not specifically targeted, and the U.S. government described his killing as "collateral damage" during a strike aimed at al-Qaeda operatives."
As for the father's death being "technically legal", say what? Obama and his DOJ argued it was allowable under the AUMF. A law is not a "technicality". If you go to the mid-east to engage in terrorism against the US, your disagreement will get you bupkis.
But yes, as I said, many Americans disagreed. My main point was to remind that fuckwit Dixcus that no, a President cannot " simply order the death of a citizen. Without any trial. Without any charges."
Remenber how the Democrat Congress blocked all of his proposals?
"Isn't that the exact same argument that you used to fight Trump's convictions for the last four years. That the charges against Trump should not have even been filed because he was too important to charge with a crime?"
Uh. No.
Mueller lawyers destroyed their apple phones. Such heroes.
Its funny how dealing with Iranian moderates was a crime back then but when Obama and Kerry do it, its not a big deal.
I would like the President to pardon me for the crimes of my ancestors.
I don't think Dr. Feelgood is actually a licensed medical doctor.
The first thing you do is investigate those who were pardoned to get them to tell what they know. Having been pardoned, they no longer have the 5th Amendment to fall back on. Once subpoenaed, they must testify completely and truthfully. Not cooperating or being dishonest will bring charges of contempt or perjury. Prosecute them on these referrals.
The second thing is to make them pay lawyers to prepare and assist. It'll be expensive, but the process is the punishment.
Finally, when they implicate others who haven't been pardoned, go after hose individuals with the full force of the DOJ.
Why bother pardoning them? It would be done in DC, right? Democrat does it, who's gonna prosecute the killers? Not the Garland DOJ! They would be busy printing medals for the killers....
Those who accept a blanket pardon during a period of government employment should lose their employment eligibility,, security clearances and pensions. There has to be a presumption of felonious conduct in office.
What if the pardoned people are, in fact, guilty of fraud and misuse of government power? Would it still be best not to include them in a blanket pardon?
If Biden issues 20 or 30 pardons, including himself, he ruins the Democratic party for 5 to 10 years.
Low trust society.
I would think a politician could get pretty far issuing a blanket pardon to ALL citizens. Drop all current investigations. Empty the jails. The costs savings would be enormous. A bit of collateral damage to society, mind you.
They also know Trump has one term left and they don't want to set an expansive pardon precedent. Because TRUMP might do the same!!!!
Althouse, you wrote "more mistakes" but only mentioned the future in your reply of sorts. Please elaborate on the original mistakes you mention as existed/existing. TY
the original mistakes == running agin Hlry
so then : more de better???
no govt employee should be allowed to 5A wrt their official acts
Here's an idea: Trump gets inaugurated and Trump pardons all the criminal Democrats, starting with Obama and Hillary and working his way down to the entire staffs of the legislators on the J6 Committee, noting the precedent of Gerald Ford pardoning the totally corrupt Nixon in order to end the controversies of the past and move forward. Of course, none of those people could have, ever again for the rest of their lives, a security clearance or government employment or any association with party politics or any role at all with the federal governemnt, because well, hey, they are criminals who got pardoned just like that bastard Nixon. So they can all go sit on a beach until they die.
I start by working backwards. The Deep State has engaged in war against Trump for nearing 9 years now. It shifted into high gear with the election and inauguration of FJB in 2020. The House under Pelosi, working closely with the Deep State, and esp the FBI and DHS, turned a peaceful protest on 1/6/21 into a pretend insurgency, which the same Dems in the House (plus Liz Cheney) investigated. This was, of course, to protect their steal of the 2020 election through fairly blatant election fraud. Then, Pelosi’s J6 Committee transferred their evidence to the Biden DOJ, which proceeded to prosecute hundreds and hundreds of innocent, nonviolent, protesters on 1/6/21 for pretend crimes, and then sending them to prison. Meanwhile, the National Security parts of the DOJ and FBI continued their war on Trump, started when he commented that anyone interested in what was on Crooked Hillary’s illegal mail server should ask the Russians (who had, with a high degree of certainty, hacked it, so that they were getting her work emails in real time). That was Jay Bratt, with the same people who pushed RussiaGate, etc, in the FL document case. The FJB WH thought that that was such a good idea, that they orchestrated 3 more criminal and a couple civil suits against Trump.
So, by the election this year, the FJB WH, DOJ, and FBI had been engaging in rampant LawFare warfare against Trump for most of the last 4 years, in order to intimidate him and his followers. It was unethical, immoral, and illegal. Illegal because the prosecutions were based on LawFare statutory misinterpretations that violate Due Process, utilizing intentionally incomplete evidence that violated Brady, and failed to disclose the FBI’s (and Pelosi’s) parts in the J6 “insurrection”. The DOJ, FBI, and Congressional Dems, lied through their teeth, and hundreds went to prison as a result.
Trump and his people know this. So do the top Dems, as well as most of the perps involved. They will be investigated, and, if possible, sent to prison. At a minimum, fired, and pensions revoked. Trump and his people have to do this, in order to prevent it from happening again. They have learned from hist 1st Term, where 4 years of attacks on Trump by the Deep State and Dems netted 5 firings/resignations (Comey, McCade, Strzok, Page, and Clinesmith), with a couple lost pensions, and a short suspension of Clinesmith’s law license (despite blatantly lying on a pair of FISA warrant applications, which would usually result in disbarment). Meanwhile the National Security community worked with Dems in Congress to impeach Trump, etc. What the Deep State learned from that was that they could attack a Republican President, with his own power, with impunity, if they work with Congressional Dems. And the only way to fight that, and reinstate the ideals of our federal republic is to make those involved pay the price for their unethical, immoral, and illegal acts over the previous 8 1/2 years.
Blanket pardons will be seen by large swaths of the public as an implicit admission of guilt, whether or not they did something wrong. I would think they would be hesitant to accept the pardons unless they know they did something questionable/illegal. If it was all above table I would think that they would want that aired publicly.
So, how does this tie into Ann’s question?
The dozens of Deep State operatives who worked so long and hard against Trump and his supporters are probably SOL. The cost in political capital in granting them pardons would probably be too high. It would be an admission that these prosecutions actually had been unethical, immoral, and esp he re, illegal. On the flip side, I expect that the WH staff involved will try to protect themselves with pardons, as well as their most visible high level Deep State operators, like AG Garland, Fauci, etc. Can they get FJB aboard (extra ice cream as a bribe maybe)? I think that pretty much anyone pardoned at this point to be investigated, if for no other reason that to determine why they were pardoned. And, to muddy them up, showing that the reason for their pardons was their political use of their government power. It’s going to be interesting to see how far down the pardons go. For the most part, powerful Dems aren’t all that loyal to their underlings, and FJB is probably worse than most of them. We shall see.
Of course, it wasn’t all above the table. They know it. They know the rules. They know the laws. They just see themselves having a higher calling. I am not saying that this is true of all government workers, but rather those involved self selected. So, for example, prosecutors who went light on J6 defendants because of FBI entrapment, LawFare misinterpretation of statutes, and Brady violations were, no doubt, replaced by those wouldn't go light on them.
Here’s the thing though. Why accept or reject the pardon up front? I would wait until either indicted, or put under oath, to decide. Use the pardon as a shield, and don’t discard it, until necessary.
Blanket pardons have a way of rebounding to the disadvantage of those who issue them. I am reminded of this:
“It is by my order and for the good of the state that the bearer of this has done what he has done.
“RICHELIEU”
All this talk of mass pardons overlooks the fact that the 6th Amendment provides an AUTOMATIC pardon for a specified class of offenses : specifically for any crime committed by a Democrat, or a government official working for a Democratic administration, within the District of Columbia.
Trials have to be conducted in the District in which the alleged crime took place. Thus unless some part of the offense took place outside DC, the trial has to be in DC where there is a zero chance of conviction. (Conversely it is impossible for a Republican to be acquitted in DC.)
So this persecutin' your opponents game is asymmetrical warfare, and pointless for the GOP to engage in. 85% of Dem (and Dem admin government officials) offenders are not prosecutable, simply because of venue.
Mass pardons of Dem officials are unnecessary. Biden would only need to pardon a small fraction of Dem offenders - those who had put a foot wrong outside DC.
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