From "What Would the Founders Have Thought About TikTok and Online Porn?/The Supreme Court will hear arguments next month in First Amendment challenges to laws banning the app and shielding minors from sexual materials on the internet" (NYT).
TikTok, in a brief asking the Supreme Court to intervene, drew a different lesson from the past, citing a 1965 decision that struck down a law requiring people who wanted to receive mail that the government said was “communist political propaganda” to say so in writing.
“History and tradition show that this nation’s constitutional commitment to ‘uninhibited, robust and wide-open debate and discussion’ includes even supposed foreign ‘propaganda,’” the company wrote, quoting from the 1965 decision, Lamont v. Postmaster General, which in turn quoted from New York Times v. Sullivan, the landmark 1964 libel case....
Is the government claiming a power to cut us off from speech coming from outside of the country?!
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So is TikTok admitting they are “communist political propaganda”?
Steel trap logic!
I guess I missed where this became a first amendment issue. I thought the banning of TikTok was due to the harvesting of information about US entities by a foreign government? I guess I need to pay more attention…
Sexual license and queer expression enjoyed a grudging tolerance in limited contexts. The same with alien influences and steering mechanisms.
Yes, the government is claiming the power to block voters from hearing informant provided by foreign governments, even if it is true. It's because our foreign policy is decided by a small cabal of violently paranoid neocons.
If a neocon was a regular peon, he would think: "you know, my doctor could possibly put poison in my medication, it's not impossible! Therefore: I need to kill him." But with us, it's just "China is getting so big that if they ever wanted to, they could beat us in a war over their province, Taiwan, which was wrested from them by the Imperial Japanese, who used it to attack their mainland, and which we blocked them from recovering after the war, so we better fight a war with them now! And we need to use Taiwan to attack their mainland!"
You could say that the above is "propaganda," but you can't say that it's not true.
But what purpose is served by conflating these two clearly distinct arguments? TikTok must be afraid of losing a weak case, I guess.
I simply do not believe that "there were no statutes forbidding obscenity during the entire colonial era."
is this another bellesiles exercise, in faulty sourcing,
Re: Christy:
That was my reaction as well . . . the Massachusetts Bay Colony was literally founded by Puritans who were so puritanical they couldn't live alongside normal people back in England. But Christian religious extremists typically aren't actually anti-sex (be fruitful and multiply) -- just anti-fornication -- so maybe pornography was accepted as a kind of marital aid.
I am not sure that you are very familiar with the era. I think that they relied on their pastors to keep the flock in the fold. I am reading an account from officer's journals right now of the Sullivan Campaign, and some recruits were showing up "dressed as John the Baptist in the Bible," that is in sackcloth with a belt, and another he gave his spare shirt because of the "obscenity" of a man's dress. I think that they had other things to worry about rather than keeping sinners from straying by force of law and intervention of the state.
."...shielding minors from sexual materials".
Sure. That's possible, just make it against the rules. hahaha.
If TikTok is going with "we're disseminating propaganda, and that's okay", isn't the difference between this and the case they cited about the mail that TikTok users may not be aware they are receiving foreign propaganda? I assume the mail recipients, if they had previously had to state they wanted to receive it, actually did know what they were getting and wanted it.
Speaking of foreign propaganda, the largest shareholder of The New York Times, which still sets the mainstream news agenda for the nation, is a Mexican billionaire. Perhaps we should force the sale of the NYT to a CIA front company. Oh wait, the NYT already is a CIA front company. Never mind.
It's not about the dissemination of information. It's about the harvesting of information. That's why divestiture is the remedy being pursued.
Under new ownership, people will still be able to view their stuff. They can revel in their Weimariness.
They didn't have photographs in the 18th century. And Pornography would be artist paintings and text. Not the same thing.
I wouldn’t rely on much Prof. Stone has written on this, and check the publication dates of his footnotes. Provost of U Chicago, former president of the (anti-free speech for conservatives only, because, you know) Constitution Society (an entity of Soros’ OSP), palled around with Obama’s Intelligence leak investigations, also Cass Sunstein — these are all markers of “free speech for leftists and lock the rest of them up.”
I’d say yeah, narciso, it may be another Michael Bellisles academic sourcing issue. I remember when Bellisles claimed the dog ate his historical research (actually that a convenient rooftop flood destroyed ALL it). The guy didn’t know how to research early wills and how property was listed in them, thus he made up a bunch of stuff about how nobody really owned guns in our Colonial past.
I’m very worried about this new trend of casually using (politically misusing) historical definitions of words to try to alter our current laws, done by people without the proper historical training. It’s never a good sign when the Comp Lit, History of Sexuality, and law profs get together searching for penumbras. It’s not your speech they’re trying to protect.
Colonial America had laws against "lewd and lascivious behavior", public nudity and other affronts to its era's ideas about "indecency". Anyone familiar with Hawthorne's "Scarlet Letter" knows that adultery and fornication were punished. Pornography was rare, as access to printing presses was limited, and printers known to deal in such materials were subject to social shaming.
A bill directed at a specific business entity is a Bill of Attainder.
"Common, widespread, legal and quite explicit", the perfesser said. Did he provide any examples?
Put this in context. In those days, only the wealthy elite had access to books, pornographic or not. The great unwashed had no access to books or pornography.
Gee … sounds familiar, one set of rules for the wealthy; a different set for the lower class(es).
The concern with TikTok is not the progress of social liberal license, but with ownership and accountability. NYT is steering the conversation away from the factual issues through an appeal to authority and ahistorical account to serve special, peculiar, and alien interests.
Jaq writes, "You could say that the above is "propaganda," but you can't say that it's not true."
It is and I can because what you have claimed is both propagandistic and untrue. Yes, Japan invaded and effectively annex Formosa. However your "them" is not who you imply. The regime from whom Formosa was wrested was the Kuomintang, often referred to as the Nationalist Party, the only lawful government of China recognized by the Allies, including the Soviet Union. The communist regime has the inferior claim.
Like, is there an extended-format coffee-table picture book about all this Colonial Erotica? Seems like there would be. I mean, there are coffee-table books about waterfalls in Switzerland. My dentist used to have one in her waiting room about the history of dentistry. Not for the faint of heart.
Sounds like Matt Gaetz was born in the wrong era.
https://scholarship.law.unc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1267&context=falr the premise rests on a supra note in another stone review article,
https://socialchangenyu.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Geoffrey-R.-Stone_RLSC_31.4.pdf again very dodgy
took me about 15 seconds to debunk his premise, some obscure limerick he can't date, with any certainty,
"In the 18th century, bookstores in the American colonies carried an extraordinary array of erotica..."
Extraordinary how, Mr. Stone? By its abundance? Or its scarcity?
It is generally believed, with some dispute, that free public libraries were not heard of much before the mid 1700s, and the first Drag Queen reading hour definitely didn’t occur until at least some time after 1920.
Sounds like Bellisles. He was a real piece of work.
the punchline, is they gave bellesiles another book contract, after Arming America, so this borders on Sokalian logic, or now AI parameters,
Now in the 18th century of Fielding's Tom Jones, that might have been something else,
However the sanction on tiktok don't rest on First Amendment grounds but the party owning and managing the company, if this is an Amicus brief, Alito or Thomas would cook it on the Barbie,
BUT! what would Professor Stone have thought about a young Florida Congressman allegedly dating a 17 year old?
"It's not about the dissemination of information. It's about the harvesting of information."
So they say. I don't believe them.
Stone is politically congruent (e.g. couples "=" couplets, sex "=" gender). Now homosexuals are attempting to dissociate from their transgender spectrum brothers and sisters. Women are being replaced by persons of the male sex identifying with the feminine gender, assaults carried out as crimes, but noth hate crimes. Hamas Palestinians celebrating social progress and women and children used as human shields after wresting control from Fatah Palestinians.
the other issue with tiktok is the type it purveys in the states, (deviational behavior, if not mere nonsense) and the patriotic and uplifting in Chinese circles,
1. "So is TikTok admitting they are 'communist political propaganda'?"
- No.
2. "Is the government claiming a power to cut us off from speech coming from outside of the country?!"
- Only in a limited sense of targeting "Foreign Adversary Controlled" speech.
3. The evidence that the CCP is controlling TikTok US is classified and comes from the FBI and the Intelligence Community.
-Thus it deserves no credence whatsoever without hard facts.
4. Really interesting issues raised in this case. If you read the TikTok filing linked above, the summary beginning on page 6 explains most of the issues from their side. The DC Court's decision explains them from the government's side.
5. They'll get the injunction and hear the case.
6. I'm now better informed than I was and I'm still unsure of what the correct ruling would be.
Congress has the power to ban foreign ownership of companies who do business in the US. This is an easy case. If Tik Tok doesn’t want to sell to US owners then it’s their decision. But they can’t operate it here then.
Computers were designed for porn. I first noticed it in 1963 when BCD nudes were coming off the 7090 printer. Actually 1401 printer, which gets its input from a 7090 tape.
The first color display I noticed at work in 1979 had a nude on it in a day.
It isn't the content that is the problem, almost every bit of it is protected speech. The problem is the Chinese Communist Party's control of the platform. To hell with that, and to hell with the CCP.
The family my church sponsored in the 1950s in their escape from Chinese Communism came through Taiwan, IIRC. They have a very different opinion of the history of China, and saw the Communist Revolution their as a disaster equivalent to another Ice Age, destroying everything in its path. Hmm, and they lived through it. Who am I gonna go with, them or Jaq?
Not our business, or our war. If you want to go fight China, go ahead. If you are. suggesting that we need to go fight a war to "free" China, when Mao is long mouldering in the grave, well, you go ahead without me.
Tik-Tok is an app created by a foreign power to undermine the United States of America, and thus represents a clear and present danger to the security of the country.
It will be shut down on that basis and that is all the law requires.
On second thought, the idea that you can so freely declare a negative like that is pretty ridiculous. Not to mention that we fought a war to get the English king out of our lives.
The Constitution of the United States does not protect China's interests.
There is zero limits to the context on queer sexual grooming. It is occurring in your neighborhood. In your child's school. In the library, where they show the kids how to suck each other's dicks.
When do these endless wars to "free" people, like the Libyans, the Afghans, the Syrians, etc, etc.. end? Are you sure that we are really the good guys?
People didn't have obscene thoughts until fairly late in the twentieth century. Sex itself wasn't invented until 1964. Even then many sex acts weren't performed or even known about until after the introduction of internet porn.....That's the way it goes. If you deny all those random sexual urges, you're miserable. If you indulge in random acts of fornication, you achieve a different kind of misery or guilt. I suppose some people achieve the right balance, but one doubts if that balance can be legislated.
“It's not about the dissemination of information. It's about the harvesting of information.”
The underinclusiveness of the law hurts that argument
I can 100% guarantee the founding fathers would not have proved of the internet where their pre pubescent daughters could be exposed to hard core porn and be groomed into mutilating themselves.
Maybe they had a Vargas-like artist or two,
https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/vargas-pinup
Have to go with @effingayright's reference to the Scarlet Letter. Given some of the other commenters take on Stone I would have to say that Hawthorne had a much better handle on the attitudes of the early settlers.
I thought about that too.
In space there are only two sexual positions.
The Human Comedy had a whorehouse telegram delivery, omitted from my high school text.
Those two positions are Yes, and No.
In space there are still 3 orifices combined with 2 phallic objects (male mammal phallus, and dildo) giving 6 ways of having sex in space. You may quibble with my inclusions and exclusions if you wish.
In the 18th century, bookstores in the American colonies carried an "extraordinary array of erotica... and there were no statutes forbidding obscenity during the entire colonial era. To the contrary, throughout this period, the distribution, exhibition and possession of pornographic material was simply not thought to be any of the state’s business.' Indeed, Professor Stone wrote... Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin collected such works..."
They had no cinema or video. Taking someone up to view your etchings is more constitutional than "Lets watch a prono flick."
Or Pedo Pete and the smartest man he knows.
"In the 18th century, bookstores in the American colonies carried an extraordinary array of erotica... and there were no statutes forbidding obscenity during the entire colonial era. To the contrary, throughout this period, the distribution, exhibition and possession of pornographic material was simply not thought to be any of the state’s business.' Indeed, Professor Stone wrote... Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin collected such works..."
The founders had no cinema or video. Taking someone up to see your etchings is more constitutional than "Lets watch some pron."
TEST
"In the 18th century, bookstores in the American colonies carried an extraordinary array of erotica... and there were no statutes forbidding obscenity during the entire colonial era. To the contrary, throughout this period, the distribution, exhibition and possession of pornographic material was simply not thought to be any of the state’s business.' Indeed, Professor Stone wrote... Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin collected such works..."
12/23/24, 6:45 PM
TEST
TEST
"In the 18th century, bookstores in the American colonies carried an extraordinary array of erotica... and there were no statutes forbidding obscenity during the entire colonial era. To the contrary, throughout this period, the distribution, exhibition and possession of pornographic material was simply not thought to be any of the state’s business.' Indeed, Professor Stone wrote... Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin collected such works..."
12/23/24, 6:45 PM
TEST
"In the 18th century, bookstores in the American colonies carried an extraordinary array of erotica... and there were no statutes forbidding obscenity during the entire colonial era. To the contrary, throughout this period, the distribution, exhibition and possession of pornographic material was simply not thought to be any of the state’s business.' Indeed, Professor Stone wrote... Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin collected such works..."
The founders had no cinema or video. Taking someone up to see your etchings is more constitutional than "Lets watch some pron."
12/23/24, 6:45 PM
Test
"In the 18th century, bookstores in the American colonies carried an extraordinary array of erotica... and there were no statutes forbidding obscenity during the entire colonial era. To the contrary, throughout this period, the distribution, exhibition and possession of pornographic material was simply not thought to be any of the state’s business.' Indeed, Professor Stone wrote... Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin collected such works..."
The founders had no cinema or video. Taking someone up to see your etchings is more constitutional than "Lets watch some pron."
12/23/24, 6:45 PM
Wasn't the Marquis de Sade imprisoned for obscenity? Same era as the Founding Fathers.
Josephbleau
"In the 18th century, bookstores in the American colonies carried an extraordinary array of erotica... and there were no statutes forbidding obscenity during the entire colonial era. To the contrary, throughout this period, the distribution, exhibition and possession of pornographic material was simply not thought to be any of the state’s business.' Indeed, Professor Stone wrote... Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin collected such works..."
12/23/24, 6:45 PM
Interesting, if I quote another comment it does not go to spam, it I comment it does not go to spam. If I quote and comment it goes to spam. Just a short experiment.
And if I announce the results of my experiment to see what goes to spam, it goes to spam.
The founders had no cinema or video. regardless of the founders, asking someone up to see your etchings is more constitutional than saying "Lets watch some pron."
Russia Russia Russia
In a day or so my experiment will come out of the spam file. I don't care if i am in spam, but it diminishes the desire to post.
Julia Roberts Finds LIfe And Her Holes Get Better With Age headline typo
Here is a comment:
Asking someone upstairs to view your etchings is more constitutional than "Lets watch some pron."
It posted, so spam diversion seems less about content and more some x factor.
Is the government claiming a power to cut us off from speech coming from outside of the country?!
Did the US Gov't have the legitimate power to block Nazi / Japanese broadcasts to the US during WWII? How about leading up to WWII?
If the Hitler Youth wanted to bring in Nazis to the US in 1939 to set up "Hitler's Youth Speaking Tours", would the US Gov't have had the legal right to stop them?
Tik Tok is speech by the CCP, and will remain that way so long as it's owned by the CCP. It is fundamentally insane to claim that the CCP has First Amendment rights
So, you live on a farm miles away from the nearest print shop or bookstore. Maybe you're on the frontier. The only books you have are the Bible, the "Pilgrim's Progress" and an almanac from 10 years ago -- and maybe you can't even read them. You work from sunup to sundown and maybe go into a sizeable town two or three times a year. When are you going to find the time for pr0n and, realistically, how arousing could it be?
I imagine it was like Rowlandson prints over in England, more scurrilous than erotic. Pitt or George III with a giant pecker. Queen Charlotte with a more than ample bosom. Imagine trying to get aroused by Steve Bell's "Guardian" cartoons. I note that Benjamin Franklin was what they called a "whoremonger" and the "Washington Post" has called Thomas Jefferson the "R. Kelly of the American Enlightenment," but I doubt the average American had much familiarity with pr0n or erotica.
" underinclusiveness" is the word of the day.
What would the founders have thought? Is that actually a serious question? They would be horrified to know they pledged their lives, fortunes and sacred honor for such unabashed degeneracy.
Well, except maybe Franklin.
Tina Trent, did you ever meet Clayton Cramer? He was the guy that fired the first deadly salvo against Bellesiles -- showing that the San Francisco archives that he supposedly referenced did not actually exist but were burned in the great fire.
Our institutions have been rotted out so badly by social justice that my natural inclination is to assume this isn't true. Remember Michael Bellesiles' Arming America? That turned out to be filled with falsified data, and until an objective researcher can validate these findings, my working assumption is that these findings are similarly falsified.
Both Franklin and Jefferson traveled to Paris. Were they more likely to have acquired erotica there or in Philadelphia?
You got a few more to go back and prune. Just saying. 😀
Academia is pure scum.
Explain more, please. Cite the law and its precedents. This is far too vague.
My husband was Bellesiles’ randomly assigned research assistant, but far more diligent and knowledgeable about historical estate law; warned him, and not by choice was much later forced to travel back to Atlanta on our dime to testify against him. Emory offered no travel or lodging, those rich, lazy and dishonest scum. He was treated like shit by a bunch of academic nobodies; the History department at Emory treated him like shit though he was by then clerking for a high-ranking federal judge and had surpassed them professionally and academically. What a bunch of cheeseballs — I could name names. Think guys who wrote one lame book in the Sixties or Seventies; wore white knee socks with shorts, got full tenure, then never did anything again. It fucked with our life plans and cost us thousands, none paid back. What a bunch of fucks. Cramer’s a very legitimate and intelligent guy and a great writer and researcher. Thank God we’re not academics. We paid and my husband went because it was the right thing to do.
Good on him. I would have expected nothing less from him. But what it cost us financially was not insignificant, and Emory didn’t make any effort to remunerate us. What a shit hole department and school. I mulched my Ph.D.
Even zucchini didn’t grow in it.
This is extremely selective and inaccurate.
Accurate.
Do read Clayton Cramer’s memoir, My Brother Ron. Raised with an extremely, extremely dangerous schizophrenic brother, Cramer has an unique view on gun rights that challenges mainstream opinions on absolutist gun rights despite his hard work to define them historically and legally.
You won’t find answers in this fascinating memoir. You will find questions everyone must confront. Great read by a thoughtful guy.
They were found to be falsified and he lost his academic position.
@Tina Trent
I just released a bunch of your comments from Spam. My theory (which I've stated before) is that your style of publishing a bunch of very short comments in a row looks like spam. I recommend not doing that.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I would need to see the documented research, which I doubt very much exists.
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