Writes James Marriott, in "We Who Wrestle with God by Jordan Peterson review — rambling, hectoring and mad/The conservative polemicist’s new book is a bizarre study of the Bible featuring Jiminy Cricket, Harry Potter and Tinkerbell the porn fairy" (London Times).
Tell me about an "interpretative system" that is better than Jordan Peterson's "whim." He's one man, interpreting things. If my "job" is to "sit still" and take in his ideas, how is that different from reading any book? The author isn't here with me, the reader, to be "argued with." But I buy the Kindle version and excerpt any passage I want to pick apart, and I do my own writing here on this blog, which you are sitting still and reading. If you are "overtaken with apathy," you stop reading. If you want to argue, you go into the comments section. If it's just too much interpretation, coming at you endlessly, take a break. Nobody said you had to read this all at once. I heard that Elon Musk read the entire Encyclopedia Brittanica when he was 9 years old. That's unusual, and it's not what the encyclopedia writers had in mind.
Anyway, here, buy the book and send an Amazon commission my way: "We Who Wrestle with God: Perceptions of the Divine."
Anyway, here, buy the book and send an Amazon commission my way: "We Who Wrestle with God: Perceptions of the Divine."
ADDED: The book review says that Peterson asserts that "the archetype of the intellectually arrogant adversary represented by the biblical Cain is manifested in the figures of Milton’s Satan and Goethe’s Faust, as well as, less exaltedly, 'Felonious Gru, of Despicable Me fame,' Jafar from the Disney film Aladdin and 'Syndrome in The Incredibles.'" So — without mentioning Peterson or Cain — I asked Grok what those characters have in common. Answer:
Ambition and Desire for Power: Each character is driven by a profound ambition. Milton's Satan seeks to overthrow God and establish his own rule, Goethe’s Faust yearns for unlimited knowledge and experience, Syndrome wants to become the world's greatest superhero through technology, Jafar aims to rule Agrabah and gain ultimate power through the Genie, and Gru initially seeks to prove himself as the greatest villain by stealing the moon.
Complex Morality: They all exhibit a complexity in their moral alignments. While traditionally seen as antagonists or villains, each character has moments or narratives where their desires, motivations, or transformations are explored, suggesting a depth beyond simple villainy. Satan is often interpreted as a tragic figure with a compelling charisma, Faust's deal with Mephistopheles explores themes of human ambition and its consequences, Syndrome has a backstory of rejection fueling his villainy, Jafar's cunning and ambition are paired with a certain charm and intellect, and Gru undergoes a transformation from villainy to heroism through the influence of his family.
Charismatic Leadership: Many of these characters lead or attempt to lead others. Satan rallies the fallen angels in Hell, Faust influences those around him with his knowledge and later his devilish pact, Syndrome commands an army of robots, Jafar manipulates through cunning and magic, and Gru commands his minions. Their leadership, while often tyrannical or misguided, showcases their ability to inspire or dominate.
Rebellion Against Authority or Norms: There's an element of rebellion or subversion in each character's story. Satan rebels against divine authority, Faust against the limitations of human existence, Syndrome against the traditional idea of superheroes, Jafar against the established rule of the Sultan, and Gru initially against societal norms by choosing villainy.
Transformation and Growth: Characters like Gru and Faust experience significant personal growth or transformation in their stories. Gru evolves into a hero through his love for his adopted daughters, while Faust's journey with Mephistopheles leads to his eventual redemption or damnation, depending on the interpretation.
Use of Wit, Cunning, or Ingenuity: Each character uses some form of intelligence or cunning to achieve their goals. Satan uses rhetoric and persuasion, Faust uses knowledge and deals with the devil, Syndrome uses technology, Jafar employs magic and manipulation, and Gru uses gadgets and strategic planning.
These themes highlight their roles not just as villains or anti-heroes but as complex figures within their narratives, exploring human (or supernatural) desires for power, recognition, and change. Their stories delve into the consequences of such desires, making them intriguing for their depth and the moral questions they raise.
ALSO: Looking for archetypes in children's stories isn't odd or paranoid. It's traditional in the field of psychology.
113 comments:
I'd rather read a Peterson book than listen to him conduct an interview. Good grief, his guests can't get a full sentence out before he starts interrupting them to pontificate.
I think he's an interesting speaker, but as we can see, he's been branded 'Conservative', and that makes him an evil that must be treated with vanquishing hostility.
The first problem comes when you call Peterson a "Conservative" used this way.
This writer needs unattached loose labels because he can't deal with the meaning of Peterson's words.
The collective left hate him - because he is smart, and he doesn't follow their narrow-minded leftist rules.
To deny Peterson's point that modern stories reflect the most ancient allegories is to deny the theory of evolution. I do not doubt that these stories were first dreamed up on the African plains a million years ago by Homo erectus.
Peterson is a psychotherapist. This makes his interview style rather invasive and rough for the interviewed.
In order to enjoy Peterson's interviews you need to be interested more in how the person came to a decision than in what that final position was.
Whatever Jordan Peterson's thesis, I'm sure it will involve lots of weeping.
The collective corrupt left hate smart people who do not fall in line with their narrow minded narratives.
Exactly. Peterson is just expanding upon and making more digestible the overall philosophies and insights of Fredric Nietzsche Karl Jung and Fedor Dostoevsky
I’ve never taken Jordan Peterson seriously because of his thick Canadian accent. I just tune him out.
Why do you keep telling us you are deeply insecure? You must be embarrassed by the lack of punches in your man card.
Yes no doubt. I'm sure Gore Vidal is more to your taste
Peterson is definitely a better interviewee than interviewer.
Joseph Campbell was unavailable for comment.
I think they liked it better when the same concepts were explained by Joseph Campbell in his interviews with Bill Moyers. It's all about the messenger, not the message.
Great minds Kate 😝
Maybe the algorithm deletes comments based on the number of comments in the nested threats I've had three deleted so far
Speaking of weeping...
In We Who Wrestle with God, Dr. Peterson guides us through the ancient, foundational stories of the Western world. In riveting detail, he analyzes the Biblical accounts of rebellion, sacrifice, suffering, and triumph that stabilize, inspire, and unite us culturally and psychologically. Adam and Eve and the eternal fall of mankind; the resentful and ultimately murderous war of Cain and Abel; the cataclysmic flood of Noah; the spectacular collapse of the Tower of Babel; Abraham’s terrible adventure; and the epic of Moses and the Israelites.
Sounds like its worth a purchase and a read.
I would say Peterson is expanding on the old? I don’t know how old, idea, that “there’s nothing new under the sun” and then I remember it’s from the Old Testament.
Peterson is better in short clips of him with podcasters.
Eh?
Andrew Klavan went useless when he gave up humor (A Shock to the System 1990) and started going Biblical in every situation. The Bible itself being narrative with literary effects and so forth is not a possibility for him. It's a positive narrative but it makes its dogmatists stupid.
Everything has already been written. The rest is metaphor.
Was reading your way through the encyclopedia at the age of nine weird? I’ve been called worse, I guess.
As usual, democrats accusing others of what they are actually doing "no making a rational argument".
So, is that Jordan Peterson? Jung + Disney pictures? Maybe just ignore the "Little Mermaid" and "Moana" stuff and concentrate on the rest.
La Nature est un temple où de vivants piliers
Laissent parfois sortir de confuses paroles;
L'homme y passe à travers des forêts de symboles
Qui l'observent avec des regards familiers.
I like to listen to/read Jordan Peterson. He makes/proposes interesting connections between people and concepts.
Some a-hole the media says "he certainly doesn't believe"...
ugh- More BS mind-reading from the leftist a-hole crowd.
Where's the Lightweight Religion substitute tag?
Read Christians do not need to go for a walk with Peterson through Disney characters like Jabbar to understand God. This is pretty weak... but I can see where your readers would be all in, most of them. Begley's Jesuit education laughs at you, girl...
Howard wants it chewed up, pre-digested and dropped into his open mouth.. I would have thought you had more well developed religious beliefs of your own at your age than needing a Peterson to expand upon things for you. Lol.
Peterson's "thesis" is not unclear. He is trying to answer the question.
At some point everyone answers that question for themselves. Some spend more time on it than others.
"Thick Canadian accent"? I guess, now you mention it, he does have a slight accent.
Dostoevsky's not hard, for those of you who missed out on him in undergrad.
Really. You don't need Peterson guiding you. Harder than Fitzgerald for sure,
but there are more college grads than high school educated here, right ann?
Maybe start another reading club for your crew here? Peterson maybe can guide your book choices, so there's that. Doubtful you're gonna get em to admit watching Alladin tho. ;-)
How come the ant- Christian bigots on the left never discuss Authoritarian Islamic theocracy -- like in Democrat Party supported Iran?
"I heard that Elon Musk read the entire Encyclopedia Brittanica when he was 9 years old. That's unusual, and it's not what the encyclopedia writers had in mind."
It was on the bottom shelf of the bookcase in my parent's living room, and I would guess I had read most of it before I was 8, although I wasn't systematic about it. Open any volume, to any page, and wonders abounded, lavishly illustrated. Why do you think that isn't what the authors had in mind?
"The obvious problem is that if you convince yourself that every animated children’s film is rich with ancient allegorical meanings, it induces a kind of symbological paranoia."
That's the obvious problem?
I think ann nailed it in closing: this is about selling books as status symbold. Not grappling with God. Much better material for that, but harder to make coin off you in the buying class. Ann's wily like that: she could sell you guys an apple in the garden of paradise, I'd bet... *wink*
I read Joseph Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces years ago. It explained nearly everything and improved my mood for months. Most of us no longer believe in God, but we all have this wish to believe in some higher power and flail around in pursuit of it. There's some comfort in belief. Make your bed and eat leafy greens. That's the way forward .
People like that tend to get banned while the simps get to stay on...
Isn't that just assumed since religion is for lightweights?
There are not very many people who can be mentioned on the same level as Peterson with respect to the search for the meaning of our existence. I will go so far to say none could be mentioned above him in modern times.
What you see in this discussion of meaning is how deep people are willing to participate before they become uncomfortable and start lashing out.
It is a bit of a puzzle to exactly what extent Peterson takes the whole archetype thing seriously. He's a psychologist, and they are in the business of believing in things that do not exist. Like "minds", and "emotions". I expect he marinated in Jung at some point, and believes that there is an emotional or spiritual truth that is largely independent of physical reality. The fact that the Universe kills you does not prove that it was right and you were wrong.
"The Power of Myth"
Life is a lot more than early bedtimes and leavy greens, tho. "Thou Shalt Not Murder" is something US taxpayers really ought to be grappling with before our enemies, and allies, act in kind... God believes in us, even if some of you have no need for him and are putting your faith in clean bedrooms and ... leafy greens. lol Gird them loins fellas, God isn't done with us...
The higher power ruling this planet is gravity. Let that sink in, LOL
Thanks for the link. I bought a copy with an Audible credit. I don’t need a reviewer that doesn’t understand the book to tell me about it. Peterson recognizes that what is God or how God presents is different to the individual, hence the title of the book.
That was great delivery.
One of the cool things that Peterson does in his book maps of meaning is that he boils down the hero's journey into the yin yang symbol. If you watch as early Harvard lectures on YouTube he explains this in great detail. Pretty interesting stuff
I have always been underwhelmed by Peterson. Add to that his drug abuse, his unimpressive polemics in response to online trolling (he is extremely thin-skinned), and his tendency to burst into tears at times for almost no reason at all leave me confounded as to what the man actually believes or has ever believed, and even more dubious at his ultimate motivations. In my opinion there is something not quite right...something artificial, even manufactured (especially as soon as fame found him) about him. Early on he had some cogent points, but those have long since been drowned out by his full-fledged entry into some of the pettiest aspects of the culture wars. To me he comes across as extremely flaky, unserious, and odd. Whenever I see him mentioned those are the first things that come to mind, as well as the first things I comment on.
RSM: I definitely agree that Jordan Peterson was much more interesting before he became popular.
Comment eating is probably related to multiple posts with an attempt at a conversation
Dr. Peterson is a very interesting figure. When I was training as a psychologist, one was either a logical empirical scientist or a neo-Freudian cultist.
Peterson is well aware of the empirical research, and cites it correctly. However, he seems to relish much of the Neo-Freudian lore that is completely unscientific (at least in my view).
If this were the 1980's, my reaction to Peterson would have been somewhat derisive. As time goes on and my view of the world evolves, I find him quite interesting and far more enlightening than the current mainstream psychological thinking.
this "Bible" suffers from Exactly the same problem that Shakespeare works do..
They are NOTHING BUT CLICHES
"Looking for archetypes in children's stories isn't odd or paranoid. It's traditional in the field of psychology."
Historically, it's probably the entire point of children's stories! It may be hard to imagine now, but children's stories were essential touchstones of cultural cohesion and moral instruction, especially when most children did not get any formal schooling.
remember Joseph Campbell?
another conspiracy theorist. These people see MYTHS in EVERYTHING!
Biffer's Diary
November 23, 2024: I agreed with Howard.
Thanx Kate! i posted before i read (again)
we only had World Books.. and i was at least a teen by the time i got to Zebras
I experienced serious abuse as a child, but the bright spot is that I learned to read before going to school, and we had three different sets of encyclopedias in the house (mom was a severe hoarder). I probably sat with them for hours on end, just looking at the pictures at first. Once I began to read, I devoured them. I can't say that I read every single word, but I'm sure I read most of them by the time I was ten or so. Those books held the promise of an escape and a different life for me.
Time spent reading/thinking about what Peterson writes/says/believes is time you're never gonna get back. Enjoy your precious, finite life and try not to fuck up someone else's. Maybe get a hobby or go outside, or something.
yes they are terrible at it, some more than others,
Shoes signify class, occupation, purpose, role and destiny
Marriot thinks that's silly. I see that as bordering on profound. Perhaps Marriot is confused by the and, thinking it is unconditionally inclusive. As an Englishman of some education earning his keep as a writer, perhaps he is hobbled by a rote Marxist notion of class.
I gave some thought to Peterson's shoe thesis, and mostly agreed with it, except destiny. Is there destiny, or does the future contain only a limited number of outcomes available to us? But then I applied the shoe thesis to archetypes. They certainly have destiny, Jason's one sandal being a fine example of shoe-siginified destiny.
Crap. Now boldface is broken.
Peterson is reductive like most thinkers. Reductivism is the most ancient and common of interpretive systems. Reductionists impose order
The last time Howard got his man-card punched was for making through a day without shitting in his diaper.
Petersen is trying to explain the Bible to non believers how dare he,
You'll never prove God by "rational" argle-bargle. I suspect that's what JP is wrestling with.
Sounds like a standard English Lit class to me. Still a good reason to avoid Peterson, but not one unique to him.
Petersen wrestles with big ideas and concepts, the likes of marriot well they grab your knees,
I haven't figured out if Howard's puns are intentional or serendipity. Those are the best kind of puns, though. Don't spoil the mystique.
There is a video of Peterson crying saying he believes in God.
True 👆🏽
Bruno Bettelheim.
JSM
Weeping shows he really cares.
Having "Grok" weigh in was brilliant. Brilliant.
A dismissal based on how the reviewer feels, which is apathetic. Apathy is the opposite of love. Most people think hate is the opposite of love, but hate is a very strong emotion based on caring about something, while apathy is absence of emotional response, the oblivion of caring, the total loss of love or hate.
So he can go to hell, because he's lying about not caring. He desperately wants to diminish Peterson with his review, because he dislikes or hates Peterson for reasons he cannot or will not articulate. His review is almost an archetype, a stereotype, of belittling that which you cannot have. Sour grapes, I'd say.
I love Peterson. But when someone finds a way to shut up a Jungian, we should make him or her an ancient god and let the Jungians try to extrapolate on that.
So the problem that Marriott has with a clinical psychologist exploring the philosophical underpinnings of modern popular drama through reference to Jungian archetype theory is that he isn't engaging in 'rational argument?'
Maybe someone is a little obtuse. (Or jealous? I'm sure Peterson would have a field day with it).
David Mamet has an excellent op-ed in today's WSJ that is full of biblical references in an effort to explain, essentially, TDS. Well worth reading. (The link should bypass the paywall.) The ancient stories still resonate today.
Ouch that's really so unfair when you hit below the belt.
By Thors Hammer, that would be a mighty power
I suggest Jaguar change its name to Liger.
The obvious problem is that if you convince yourself that every animated children’s film is rich with ancient allegorical meanings, it induces a kind of symbological paranoia.
Bruno Bettelheim has entered the chat.
It's Encyclopaedia Britannica—one ‘t’—ditto for the Island of Britain, along with the Roman province of Britannia. With two ‘t’s it refers to the northwestern France traditional province of Brittany (in English; Bretagne in French)—which region was settled during the early Middle Ages by Bretons from (still Celtic areas of) Britain.
Althouse said...
Looking for archetypes in children's stories isn't odd or paranoid.
Somebody tell Joy Bahar the bad news that Robert DiNiro agrees with Joe Rogan.
"Well, Puff's just the name of the boy's magical dragon>."
Gravity is ruling everywhere in the universe, Howard. In some places more than others. It was one of the things that was created at the start. Along with time.
Kate. Sometimes they are intentional.
I tuned Peterson out when he tried to expain and defend himself by saying,
"I come down here. I do da best I are."
Men who criticize other men who get teary-eyed (which is more descriptive of Peterson's emotional moments than "crying" or "weeping") are basically dickless men and just like the stupid women who bitch that men won't open up about their innermost feelings, and then criticize men who when they do open up and shed tears.
It seems that I can get Peterson's book on Audible so I will use the portal for that. I no longer read books because of my ADHD -- which makes me teary-eyed about a pleasure I have had all my life, and now I cannot do properly enough to enjoy the writing.
Peterson is NO conservative and he would be the first to tell you that. But because he not only is not Woke, but fought and still fights against people that demand that he tow the line, the "reviewer" tags him as "conservative". I admire his fight against people that demand he say certain approved words (mostly pronouns) and have gone after him to try to put him out of a job. If his lectures and writings and interviews weren't so interesting to me (he often takes complex subjects and whittles them down to the basics), I would still admire and honor him for his fighting back. Some of the people here that are criticizing him are, in my mind, the malevolent creatures who, if given a chance, would assist on loading Peterson and the others into the cattle train to be re-educated, not realizing that they are destined for the next cattle car.
Aka Benno Brutalheim for his child abuse.
I had the classic EB 11, from my Opa, practically unused by him and his son and daughter--a few maps had been badly refolded but there's scant evidence of usage otherwise. And while some of my friends parents had the 15th (or whatever was the next 'full revision') and almost everyone had World Book, none of us ever read them cover-to-cover, or claimed to.
Wouldn't an extrapolation on polarity in a Jungian examination of Aladdin and the Lamp be relevant to this post? Lots of archetypes there apparently.
- Krumhorn
I'd like to ask our hostess if her Grok setting for that response was in the 'fun mode'?
- Krumhorn
Came for the Napoleon Dynamite reference. Leaving satisfied.
Does faith in God, gods, or mortal gods repudiate a claim to exercise rational thought?
Peterson's thinking is very much a product of mid-20th-century intellectualism, and he preaches the meat-and-potatoes functional ideology of that era. He is a standard liberal democratic academic and would have been left-of-center until a generation or two ago. Today's left has moved very far into totalitarianism, authoritarianism, and autocracy and cannot be called liberals or democrats in any way. I mean you, young David Hogg and Greta Thunberg.
While Jordan's focus on archetypes and symbolism isn't my cup of tea, it follows directly from old-school Christian hermeneutics, Freud's analysis of "the unconscious," and most directly, Carl Jung's academic work on archetypes and symbolism.
What's old is forgotten and then it becomes new once again.
The energy spent trying to debunk, discredit, and disrespect Peterson is amazing. It's like he might be a real threat or something.
his guests can't get a full sentence out before he starts interrupting them
I don't listen to him much, but I gotta agree with this. And it is annoying when the discussion is about a something he has little understanding of, which seems to be anything involving STEM. I find myself wishing he would just shut up already.
I agree that he's not the greatest interviewer, and often doesn't know when to shut up, but he has a curious, probing, and sober mind-- a lot of the critique of him seems cognate with TDS. Call it PDS.
As you say, he must be considered a threat.
No.
Back in my twenties, an astute girlfriend generously shared that a man's shoes were the first thing women considered at second glance.
Peterson's lecture series on Genesis, available on YouTube, is even better than an Althouse fisking. It's truly great to see and listen to a brilliant scholar summon everything he knows to revel in the most foundational of texts.
Joseph Campbell and Peterson both are indebted to Eric Neumann's The Origins and History of Consciousness, (a foundational work of a different sort and one that more than lives up to its modest title) for their understandings of archetypal stories and psychology.
... a man's shoes were the first thing women considered at second glance.
Hence Red's observation in Shawshank Redemption.
Anyhoo.... I tried reading Maps of Meaning years ago and, as with Das Kapital, gave up halfway through the first chapter, tried skim-reading at random, and then finally gave up.
Despite the impact of the work on human society I feel no loss, much as I've never read the Bible.
I suspect I'll regret absorbing MoM even less.
Ha
I heartily agree about the Genesis lectures. Excellent.
Intellectually arrogant adversary?
I'm thinking Wallace Shawn in The Princess Bride.
Need more be said?
Excellent point. Probably afraid.
Nicely put. You cannot teach history or literature without teaching the various roles religion played throughout history. Jung lays out deeper patterns and also explains his own times and place. So do the ancient Greeks and others. I’m sure Peterson is a great educator. If you don’t like it, change the channel.
I just wish he’d dress like a normal person. It’s getting weird.
As opposed to whom?
Very funny
The man was persecuted by the state, refused to back down, inspired people worldwide to fight tyranny, dragged before a kangaroo court, lost his life’s work and earned credentials, and is still standing. Would you have the fortitude to do that?
And now he is building an online school which will cost a modest amount, only fair to him and others who deserve pay for work. It’s also been proven that if you pay even a little for something, you tend to complete it. This is wonderful news. It fits his best skills; it will bring classical education to many people who could not afford it or fit it into their lives. It circumvents the endless wrangling with academic establishments spewing leftist garbage. A life well-lived. My joking about Jungians is not meant to demean them, but in my experience, there really is a tad too much of the numinous in their everyday lives. I’ve known a few. Sometimes a flagpole is just a pole holding a flag.
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