"Doesn’t it sometimes feel that it would be simpler if you each just brought over a small TV and left it running in the kitchen, tuned to your respective network, while the two of you went into the yard and talked about something about which you possess some original knowledge? Once you’re out there, talking like that, won’t it be nice to feel your pre-formed 'political' carapaces drop away? And won’t it be discouraging and alarming when, as soon as one of you slips up and utters a triggering word or phrase ('immigrant' or 'Trump' or 'politically correct' or 'eating cats and dogs,' for example), you veer back into your canned 'political' jargon, like actors suddenly aware that the scripts you’ve been given must, at all costs, be honored?"
Writes George Saunders, in
"Five Thought Experiments Concerning the Underlying Disease/Our civic wells are poisoned. Why?" (The New Yorker).
Saunders is a fine writer, but I'll be
cruelly neutral and give him the
"civility bullshit" tag he deserves. If Kamala Harris had won, would he be urging us to abandon political speech and get back to the little life of the backyard about which we possess "original knowledge"?
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90 comments:
I don’t have political arguments with close friends or family members, because we tend to talk about many other things than politics. Perhaps the New Yorker should try doing it.
No publication did more to poison the political environment than The New Yorker did in pushing the Russia collusion hoax. All the villains who pushed the hoaxes, served as conduits for CIA propaganda on the Ukraine War and participated in the lawfare against Trump are now begging for mercy. “Please don’t do to us what we did to you!”
A Trump supporter does not have an argument with a leftie Democrat. We are the recipient of harangues, laced with epithets buttressed by made-up “facts” that are patently untrue, bullshit, conjectures, and bullshit conjectures. I have no plans to start an argument, but I will not concede one God-damned inch of ground to these deluded assholes.
It used to be standard practice that you didn’t talk religion or politics in mixed company.
Who ended that convention? I’m having trouble remembering.
something about which you possess some original knowledge
People don't possess original knowledge of their own political beliefs or why they hold them? (Which is a separate subject from whether various claims and counterclaims are factually true.) Sounds like projection to me.
You don't possess original knowledge of your own birthday or the names of your parents <-- amazing fact pointed out in the law school class called Evidence.
It would be funny if the hearsay rule applied to ordinary social conversations.
lol!
Just do what Mark Cuban has done: scrubbed his X account of all kamala posts!
George Saunders is no Saint, but this is a start: "you veer back into your canned 'political' jargon, like actors suddenly aware that the scripts you’ve been given must, at all costs, be honored"
If that's the case, do I possess original knowledge of my own name? I only know what other people told me my name is.
I think our culture might need some role modeling on this front. We’re being told it’s ok to turn our backs on friends and relatives who have differing political opinions, without really understanding what the differences are or why others may have drawn other conclusions than we have. We’re afraid we might change our mind, maybe…. That would be intolerable(!), but it’s how we grow.
If you really drill down, the only thing you have original knowledge of is that you exist.
"Who ended that convention? I’m having trouble remembering."
“Let’s make sure we show up wherever we have to show up,” Waters told a crowd in California over the weekend. “If you see anybody from that cabinet in a restaurant, in a department store, at a gasoline station, you get out and you create a crowd, and you push back on them, and you tell them they’re not welcome anymore, anywhere.” - Maxine Waters
I beg your pardon, Professor. I’m quite certain I can prove I was there at my birth in the hospital room. In fact my memory is so good I can remember being in my Daddy when he got into bed, and inside my Mommy a half hour later.
Ah, the old jokes are still the best!
It's not "immigrants" that worry most Americans, it's "illegal aliens," the legal term of art, that the Biden Administration, filled with Obama retreads, chose to flood the country with.
You don't get to retreat into civility bullshit when your plans to break the law to help your side get found out.
I am astounded at the viciousness and emotion of the Harris voters. They have been saying and doing the most hateful things. Among the most divisive is the concerted effort to damage otherwise healthy and warm relationships. My step daughter with whom I have developed a relatively close and cordial connection has asked her mom to instruct me to remain in another part of the house when she comes over, not to hug her, and only to say hello if passing by….because I voted for OrangeHitler. She and I never discuss politics so it is not part of the fabric of our conversations, but it is now apparently.
I’d like to think that it is not her intention, but it is clear to me that I am to be made to feel chastised and quarantined because of my vote for a political figure who won. My first inclination was to be gracious about it and give her space, but as the week has passed, I have become more pissed about it. It’s unlikely that without a word about it ever having passed between us, our relationship will ever be the same.
The oh so tolerant left.
- Krumhorn
AA, remind me if we ever should meet to bring a certified copy of my birth certificate. One's age or birthdate may come up in the conversation.
When I was a baby, I kept a diary.
Recently, I was rereading it and it said, "Day 1: Still tired from the move."
"Day 2: Everybody talks to me like I'm an idiot."
I remember turning from one years old to two years old and I was real upset 'cause I figured in one year, my age doubled.
"If this keeps up, by the time I'm six, I'll be 90."
--Steven Wright
I am astounded at the viciousness and emotion of the Harris voters.
thousands of girls on tictok are taking breaks from their scream rants, to Proudly Announce; that they are cutting off ALL contact with their families..
There is a word, for groups that encourage you to cut off with your family..
the word is: Cults
I knew what carapace means without having to look it up so good for me!
has asked her mom to instruct me to remain in another part of the house when she comes over, not to hug her, and only to say hello if passing by….because I voted for OrangeHitler.
Someone needs to teach your stepdaughter how to be a grown-up.
They are also announcing plans to murder men. Let's get real with the mental health crisis we are currently confronting thanks to Tik-Tok.
I don't. It is NOT worth the trouble. If they don't share your politics there is not a damn thing you could say will dissuade them. Either they have already heard your arguments and don't agree OR they are too locked into their current positions and won't hear you/don't care. They are also your friends and family, just leave that crap outside.
Related, it seems that progressives CAN'T have conservative friends and will cut off friends/family over politics whereas most conservatives I know can maintain relationships with "everyone". They will just avoid politics when around "those people". There is more to life than politics unless politics is your life/religion.
It's the backyard of Eden.
We know their arguments they only know caricafures of ours
That's true. You only have their word for it and they've lied to you about so many things. Bastards.
@Althouse, thinking seriously about what you wrote regarding evidence. It seems obvious, once you think about it, but first someone had to think about it.
I thought you were giving me a new word. So I looked it up. Caricatures.
And yes. They have no on hand knowledge so they make things up.
and MSNBC - but yes. American media is a heaping pile of worthless junk.
I was sitting at dinner with five Democrats who were all dejected when Trump appeared on the TV as President-Elect, and I came as close as I have in a long time to arguing politics. When they all laughed at some orangutan joke that Bill Maher had made years ago, I said "Who had the last laugh?" and left it at that.
I just drop little nuggets that are hard for them to argue with, like "we wouldn't have millions of migrants if we weren't constantly starting wars in their countries, and at least Trump is promising not to start new wars."
@ Todd...agreed. My husband and I are "conservative" and voted for Trump. There is another couple that we often see at the local barista coffee shop who are very "liberal progressives". During the election, we all had an unspoken rule to not bring up politics. After the election, it was a spoken and agreed upon request.
Does the conversation sometimes veer into political? Yes, but we immediately change the subject...because we are intelligent adults with manners. We have great conversations with this couple on many other topics.. There are plenty of other things to discuss.
Otherwise...we just avoid being around people who are unable to be civil. Not worth the time or effort.
Good God. Aside from sites like The New Yorker being primarily responsible for poisoning the wells, have they ever gone to a site like patriots dot win? The Reddit alternative not only has zero respect for the "rules" set out by liberals, they mine the tears better than most of Conservative Inc. If your liberal family members want to be nasty this Thanksgiving, let them have it with both barrels. You won. Act like it.
Kick her narrow ass out of the house, dude.
I spent election night at the cask and Cleaver in Rancho Cucamonga. It was raucous as hell. That place is as melting pot as it gets, it was not ce.
I spent election night at the cask and Cleaver in Rancho Cucamonga. It was raucous as hell. That place is as melting pot as it gets, it was not ce.
I like the idea of my friend and I putting two TV's next to each other, and letting them debate, as we go outside to do real stuff. [Using Youtube for the scenario would be more relevant]
The Democrats always hire the best talent for their propagandizing, as they've found that Star Power has the biggest impact. But they've more recently discovered that propaganda is no substitute for the creative power of ideas, and that endless bullsh*tting & gaslighting has its limits.
In my experience you can try to understand the gripes and resentments of populist or liberal voters, but they will have a whole endless new batch of fresh grievances. And they also never admit they may have made an irrational choice.
“Here are my grievances, if you don’t like them I have others”
If her mom didn't respond by telling the daughter not to visit - to punish her bad actions, to stand up for you, and to try to teach her a better way of thinking and living - then she has let you down worse than the daughter.
"If that's the case, do I possess original knowledge of my own name? I only know what other people told me my name is."
Exactly. You don't know a lot of the most basic things about yourself as a first-hand witness.
My in law is from San Francisco and worships the ground Pelosi walks on. When we see each other, I told her, we can NOT talk about Politics, because we will always disagree, but I love spending time with you, so let's have a good time. It's the only way we can get a long, but it is worth keeping the peace for family. She doesn't have that pact with others in the family, so there are arguments...but I leave the room.
The Narrative has just had a painful encounter with reality and needs a few weeks of windowless-room seclusion to recover its strength, so please don't turn that light on. But don't worry, it will be back in your face soon enough.
Normally, after every Democrat loss the MSM talks about how the R needs to "Unite the country", reach accross the asile, and tamp on all the "anger". When the D wins, its about how wonderful it is, and how the liberal/left agenda can now be put into action.
Its same with Senate filibuster. Its an undemocratic tool when the D President wins. And then it flips to being the "Bulwark of Democracy" "Preventing the tyranny of the majority" when we have a R President.
My brother, Kool aid drinking champion of Nevada, claims Trump supporters are a cult. But I've noted people like Joy Reid saying it's OK to cut off family and friends if they voted for Trump.
Isn't that a tactic used by all cults?
Why yes, yes it is.
“If you covered him with garbage, George Saunders would still have style.”
"Have Americans rejected wokeness? No, it's the voters who are wrong."
"I’d like to think that it is not her intention, but it is clear to me that I am to be made to feel chastised and quarantined because of my vote for a political figure who won. My first inclination was to be gracious about it and give her space, but as the week has passed, I have become more pissed about it. It’s unlikely that without a word about it ever having passed between us, our relationship will ever be the same."
I'm a bit meaner than you. I'd greet her warmly when she enters. I'd ask about her life and how it's going. I'd follow her room to room being silent and smiling. When she squawks, I'd ask, Are you OK, sweety. Is there something on your mind? What can I do to help".
If your wife gets mad... tough (yeah, I know happy wife....) but your wife raised a spoiled brat willing to cast you aside. She should, IMO, be a mediator. If not, I'd be questioning that relationship too.
As has been pointed out a gazillion times, within a 24-hour period late in the campaign both Obama and Harris went from shouting "Nazi threat to democracy!" to "How did politics get so divisive?" So I can't be fooled by the faux self-reflection from The New Yorker or any other leftist mouthpieces. Either hold your side responsible for what they say and do or fold your tent a STFU.
There are plenty of people that are first-hand witnesses to basic things, and still don't know them, either, as evidenced by the events of the past week.
I don't remember "original knowledge" from Evidence but I recall "actual knowledge," which we really have so little of.
I would argue that the media outlet that had to pay nearly 800 million for their lies might be in the lead for "did the most to poison the political environment"
I would argue that the media outlet that had to pay nearly 800 million for their lies might be in the lead for "did the most to poison the political environment"
We've been visited recently by about 15 extended family members and politics never came up. Meanwhile my Trump-deranged spouse hasn't uttered his name since election night.
I played golf with my three Democrat regular buddies on Saturday. They politely congratulated me on the first tee, and didn't bring up anything political until the 14th tee, when the match was getting tense. One of them started jokingly muttering about Trump (it is sort of a running joke that they bring up politics to throw me off my game).
I said-"Speaking of Trump, I was at Barnes and Noble picking up a book for my wife. I asked the clerk about the new Trump book about his policy for deporting illegals.. She looked at me hard, and said "Get the fuck out of here, right now, and don't ever come back!"
I said "Yeah, that's the one. Do you have that in paperback?"
They all cracked up. A good laugh was had by all.
On the next tee one of them brought up Stormy Daniels...
All I know for certain, is that I saw a light at the end of the tunnel, and voices yelling: come out, get out, keep going... and my fondest memory in a woman's warm embrace. Later they would tell me that she is my mother, and the man holding her hand is my father.
I guess we're back to the "Dissent is the Highest Form of Patriotism" mindset.
Althouse said...
"If Kamala Harris had won, would he be urging us to abandon political speech and get back to the little life of the backyard about which we possess 'original knowledge'?"
No. They would not. These guys just cannot step off their self-constructed pulpit of moral high groundedness which they think they have in order to lecture others. Please ignore that stuff FYOG. If you have ever been lectured to by an atheist about how a Christian (ie, yourself) should behave, act, or think in their opinion? Yah, like that.
Well at least he is not telling the left to abandon their family and cut ties with the racists who voted for Trump. In my circle several families have been impacted by this. It is awful and hurts.
"If that's the case, do I possess original knowledge of my own name? I only know what other people told me my name is."
I chose my confirmation name. So I have original knowledge of that.
Was it The New Yorker that publishes a how to guide for arguing with your Republican uncle at Thanksgiving, Christmas, and other family gatherings?
About a year and a half back I was hanging out with the bass player in my band after a jam. Don't know how it started (I think it was me saying "All political violence is on the Left") but Trump came up. He's the only close friend I have who leans left but he's very common sense about immigration, strong supporter of Israel, and hates woke BS. Anyway, he was down on Trump and sure he was going to jail for the "crimes" he committed. I told Chris that Trump hadn't really committed any crimes that weren't at heart a difference of opinion about presidential powers and further predicted the cases would all eventually be dismissed or fall apart. Then I delicately picked apart the myths of J6, "fine people" and the Russia hoax. He was shocked that I believed so strongly in Trump's innocence. It made him curious but only after OCT 7th did he start turning on the leftwing media and admitting the street violence was absolutely leftwing. He came to visit just before the election, but we didn't talk about any of this. I have a hunch he changed a lot of what he used to think about Trump. He did laugh when I flipped off a bunch of people waving Harris-Walz signs when we were coming back from the beach, after honking and waving for the pro-Trump rally nearby.
Bich is now a chick, huh? Nobody cares what Paul Ryan and the flaming leftist Murdoch kids have done to Fox dude! We moved on a long time ago.
@Krumhorn, I’m sorry this happened to you. But in a way Aggie is right — there have to be consequences for the childish acting out of the Dumbocrats. Can your stepdaughter live in a world where anyone with whom she interacts is better than 50% likely to have politics unlike hers? Never call for a plumber? Never have a mechanic work on her car? Never get served in a restaurant by a waiter or waitress? (I have reason to know that servers in restaurants were well aware which candidate meant it about not taxing tips.) No man is an island — and the same goes for stepdaughters.
And tommyesq is also right. Your wife has an obligation to you to see to it that her daughter respects you. You and she need a heart to heart talk.
Your assessment may or may not be "cruel," but a "neutral" point of view wouldn't assume that Saunders would write differently if Harris had won. He would probably have very different emotions in real life, but advice about how to handle the holidays with relatives who think otherwise is an established genre and an easy way to write and sell an article. George Sanders is a familiar name in literary circles, so the New Yorker might have published the same article even if Harris had won.
That happened to me too when I got stuck in the Old Mill ride at the amusement park as a small kid.
I was having a beer with a couple of my liberal friends. I assured them that when Trump started putting his political enemies in concentration camp that I would vouch for them. They laughed. Being sane their viewpoint was that their party lost what should have been an easy election because its ran by idiots and they had a lousy candidate. I think there is more to it than that, but there is no point in arguing about it.
"Doesn’t it sometimes feel that it would be simpler if you each just brought over a small TV and left it running in the kitchen, tuned to your respective network, while the two of you went into the yard and talked about something about which you possess some original knowledge?"
Didn't the left just try this when all their ideas about covid turned out to be crap?
I love it. I think that is the best way to handle it. Let her be a spoiled brat elsewhere, not where you RESIDE.
You don't know a lot of the most basic things about yourself as a first-hand witness."
Brings to mind the movie "the Truman show".
Ray Davies of the Kinks said, “If you covered him with garbage
George Sanders would still have style.”
Oops, there’s that polispeak again!
Why did he say to bring the 2 TV's? Did he just put that in there because as a media member, he doesn't want to be telling people to tune out the media altogether?
so Professora et al >>
how can anybody at all be sued under their own name?
who gets burden of proving parties are identified correctly?
I don't need a TV proxy to sit inside and discuss politics for me. I'm fine with not discussing it with people I know who vote differently. They have their reasons for how they vote. I really hate when people start lecturing others because they are "voting against their interests". Lives are too complicated. How does anyone know what is in the best interest of someone else?
“Train leaving on Track 5 for Anaheim, Azusa and Kook … amonga!”
Civility Bullshit is the right call.
I'm still waiting to see Dem leaders accepting that they need to stop with all the Leftist crap, and try to at least act like a party of the people again. Hasn't happened yet. The two Dems who publicly stated, "hey, maybe embracing Trans Religion wasn't a good idea, guys" were body-slammed by their own party, and as long as that's happening, the Dems are going to lose again and again.
The Dems would have lost in 2020, but Lara Trump finally lubricated the election machine with enough observers and lawyers to stop the major shenanigans.
"Here are my talking points presented without evidence; if you don't like them, I have others."
The vast majority of Americans are perfectly capable of having the backyard conversation this author describes and there’s nothing “civility bullshit” about it. That’s because most Americans don’t carry their politics around like an ersatz identity, like junior-varsity Sean Hannity and Chris Hayes, waiting for the moment they finally get to spout their dopey political talking points. Most Americans are normal.
I subscribe to Jim Treacher’s Substack. His latest post looks at the lessons Democrats will not learn from this election (hint: all of them). Here’s his assessment of the lesson they will not learn about condescending towards the voting public:
Even now, a lot of them are insisting they weren’t big enough assholes. Fortunately for them, that dial goes to infinity.
Yup. Keep it up, Dems. There will be another gubenatorial election here in Virginia just next year.
He is just mad that the Democrats didn't find a way to beat Trump so that he could crow about it the rest of his life.
I, for one, am able to keep my opinions to myself, and can avoid being an ass even though surrounded by a virtual stable full at family gatherings, or a table full of them at mealtimes.
I'd be more than happy to not talk about politics AT ALL with my family and friends. Thing is, I'm not the one who brings it up.
I would argue that the media outlet that had to pay nearly 800 million for their lies might be in the lead for "did the most to poison the political environment"
Just as long as you include in your 'argument' why left-wing media outlets aren't being sued for their lies.
instruct me to remain in another part of the house when she comes over
Your house? She's telling you what to do in your house?
It's your family, dude, but I know what I'd be doing if she tried to pull that shit with me.
I spent election night at the cask and Cleaver in Rancho Cucamonga.
We hit the Cask and Cleaver every time we come down to Pomona for the drag races. Love that place.
But what happens when the conversation remains stuck on "Orange Man Bad", and "He's EVIL"? My progressive-democrat senior-citizen friends seem to get all their news from CNN and MSNBC (showing their age?) and don't listen to the big podcasters like Rogan and his cohorts, hate Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly (for unspecified reasons), and still think Fauci is a hero. I suspect they're in deep deep denial, because their household finances haven't weathered Biden years very well, and most are still working at their white-collar professional jobs because retirement is too expensive.
Good thing normal people don’t live by hearsay rules.
Other rules include civility, restraint, sociability, kindness, and simply ignoring idiotic anger out of affection for someone who means something more than politics to you, even if they’re showing their ass.
It passes if you ignore it.
If it doesn’t, just make distance for a while. We are monkeys, after all.
Monkeys forget.
As a professional political operative, I’ve lost nearly all of my family and friends. Because they acted out. To keep a few, I had to hone these skills.
It’s worth it.
File under Coping Mechanisms. The longer they go on the shorter they will last.
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