"... saying its purpose was to 'democratize the sky.'... Over the last few decades, we’ve pivoted from the ideal of egalitarian fairness (first-come, first-served) to the ideal of 'pay more, get treated better.' This is evident not only in commerce, but in politics: Both Democrats and Republicans have moved from having government regulation assure fairness toward using market solutions to ration goods and happiness. Examples: Lexus lanes, deregulated airfares, phone service.... But maybe Southwest is embracing a new American way. In the country where efficiency became a science, we’ve been bamboozled into accepting the idea that you have to pay extra to get the basics. How sad."
"Both Democrats and Republicans have moved from having government regulation assure fairness"
I reject the assumption that government regulation assures fairness.
rent-seek·ing Economics noun the fact or practice of manipulating public policy or economic conditions as a strategy for increasing profits. "cronyism and rent-seeking have become an integral part of the way our biggest companies do business"
Airlines can't survive on budget fares alone, and I haven't flown Southwest in ages because they never offer the lowest fare. If other people are willing to subsidize the cost of my low-fare ticket so that they can sit in the front of the plane, I take that as a win-win for both of us.
"Okay, sure, but the old Southwest system was all about choice; your seat was based not on how much extra you’d pay, but on how you want to use your points, when you want to check in, and how smart you are about choosing a seat once you’re on board. What’s more American than choice?"
Seems to me, choosing how much you want to pay is a choice: do I want a better seat or a cheaper seat?
I don't see how this change can be considered the least bit "unamerican." They're switching from a first come first served free for all to an orderly process of people paying for the convenience of purchasing their seat locations in advance. (Which is what most airlines already do.)
Plus, under the current Southwest system, passengers were able to pay more to get moved closer to the front of the line.
"The airline currently puts customers in one of three boarding groups and assigns a number, setting off a mad dash to check in a day before the flight. Customers can get earlier boarding though if they pay for a higher-priced ticket, they’ll get a better boarding slot."
The one-price-for-all/first come first served model has never worked for airlines. Anyone remember People Express? That lasted a year or two. Airlines' fixed costs are too high for that. The only way they can be profitable is to charge more for people who are willing to pay more for better quality (or priority seating, or whatever). As others have said, there's nothing "un-American" about it. Hotels and many other businesses with high fixed costs do the same thing.
"Okay, sure, but the old Southwest system was all about choice; your seat was based not on how much extra you’d pay, but on how you want to use your points, when you want to check in, and how smart you are about choosing a seat once you’re on board. What’s more American than choice?". (emphasis added)
How are "points" not equivalent to money in this equation?
I had forgotten just how mini the miniskirts were in those days. Microskirts, is that a thing? And the go-go boots! And the mandatory age and weight restrictions! Totally, inexcusably sexist of course, but wow, brought back some dazzling memories from my teenage years.
If the Greenies get their way, only Party elites will have the basics. The rest of us can walk, bike, or go Greyhound.
Greyhound? Bite your tongue. Choo-choo trains everywhere, just like those sophisticated Europeans, who still need government subsidies for their railroads despite having ten times the population density.
I'll say this for Jimmy Carter, he deregulated the airlines and interstate trucking. He also legalized home beer and wine making. By modern standards, he'd be a fantastic choice!
The Democrats control the Senate and the Presidency. Not to mention almost all the Federal Judiciary and DoJ. So, if American business is going to a two-tier "more money gets better service" economy, that's because the Democrats want it. Because they've done zero to stop it.
Its not an act of God. Or "the changing times".
Frankly, SW Airlines was right to get rid of "First in, first served". Its a dumb way to assign seating.
They usually offer my husband and me the lowest fare because we use our SW credit card for everything we possibly can, and therefore get an annual companion pass for me that's good for a year. I fly for $11 in fees wherever my husband goes. The empty nest means that I fly with him wherever and whenever he has to travel.
Jamie said... “They usually offer my husband and me the lowest fare because we use our SW credit card for everything we possibly can, and therefore get an annual companion pass for me that's good for a year. I fly for $11 in fees wherever my husband goes. The empty nest means that I fly with him wherever and whenever he has to travel.
I'm sure SW has calculated how much it costs to move baggage from one point to another and has figured that somehow into the price of their tickets. The fact that it's not itemized does not mean it's free, they're just not telling you how much you're paying for the service.
Southwest is getting squeezed at both ends. Those savvy egalitarians that are Southwest’s bread and butter are opting for cheaper fares from newer low fare carriers while the traditional carriers offer a wider range of fares for more restrictions. Plus flying SW is like taking the local bus instead of the express…
Yes, that old Southwest ad caters to the male business traveler of the 1970s. The democratization came from the lower fares. The airline business these days is based on the business travelers still being the most profitable, but needing the revenue from the many more nonbusiness travelers to cover the cost of flying the plane, the same business model as the Titanic.
I've been flying SWA for years, and nothing about this description sounds recent unless you're making a comparison to 1972. A-List Preferred (the first group boarding) has been restricted to frequent SWA flyers for years. "Check in" has also for years been an online process opened 24 hours prior to scheduled departure time so what you did to get a good boarding slot was be free to have your finger hovering over your mouse button at the appropriate time. An upcharge for an automated check-in that randomly assigns boarding slots after the preferred group and before non-payers was added later.
Ultimately, everybody gets a seat on the plane, and as far I've ever been able to determine, every seat in an airplane arrives at the destination at the same time. If you choose to arrange your non-flying schedule so that it really matters in you are in the front or back of the plane, that's your issue, not the air carriers.
" ... we’ve been bamboozled into accepting the idea that you have to pay extra to get the basics. How sad."
A center seat on a safe and reliable aircraft is basic. A window or aisle seat is a step or two above and its value is determined by the person buying the ticket. One could reasonably argue that selling some seats for "less" opens the market to many who couldn't otherwise afford to fly.
[shrug] Fortunately for me, I don't really care where I sit. My husband uses all sorts of strategies to choose the row we hope we can have to ourselves (for those unaware of it, all SWA planes have rows of three starboard and three port seats, and I don't know why I'm going nautical but there you are), but if someone comes along wanting "our" middle seat, I just scoot over. And sometimes, especially when I'm tired, I sit in a different row altogether to have my own window to lean on.
But! I say again, we're not typical - he is an A List member so we always board in the first group of 60. So we have maximum choice. On those occasions when I fly alone, these days I've been flying Spirit for the most part, where I do have an assigned seat but have to pay to breathe. Whatever.
SW airlines used to have a lot of relatively short flights in the American west. LA-SF, SF-Las Vegas. phoenix - Portland. Etc.
So, first come first served seating made sense. Personally, I *DO* care where I sit, especially on long flights. Hell, is getting stuck in the middle. Give me a window seat any day, and if not, a row seat.
My worst flight experience was getting wedged in on a trans-continential flights with two fatties on either side.
The one airline commercial I remember from back then is where the passenger moves through the party in the front of the plane to the back and finds it is steerage with the dour passengers playing the Volga Boatman song.
I'm sure SW has calculated how much it costs to move baggage from one point to another and has figured that somehow into the price of their tickets. The fact that it's not itemized does not mean it's free, they're just not telling you how much you're paying for the service.
Just sayin'.
I can fly RT from Long Beach to Las Vegas on SWA for as low as $39 each way, and I can still check 2 bags and bring a carry on and a personal item on board.
"I can fly RT from Long Beach to Las Vegas on SWA for as low as $39 each way, and I can still check 2 bags and bring a carry on and a personal item on board."
Ok. Are you saying that SW doesn't know how much it costs them to do that?
In my business travel needs, dominated by the need to connect because San Antonio is not a hub, I've preferred to fly with airlines with strong Texas hubs. Over these decades that has made my choices: American, Continental (now United) and Southwest. The second criteria was international service. The third was the surety of reservation, particularly seating. While SWA passed the first criteria, it failed on the other two. I did fly on it occasionally, but I always hated the cattle car boarding experience.
SWA has been a major airline for a long time. The FAA keeps them as regional because they make the regional safety numbers look better. I OK flying on them, when needed, but I just don't. I'm thinking that a lot of business travelers are like me and want to know where they are going sit when they make their reservations. There's enough anxiety in business, we really don't need any extra.
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43 comments:
Say what you will. But you HAVE TO Admire their commitment to climate saving!
Just THINK of ALL THE FUEL they saved, by wearing those skimpy outfits!!
It is interesting to watch the Media gestapo go after companies that do not toe the regime line or donate enough to congressman.
Does the average person give a damn? How much air travel does the average person undertake?
1 class of seats, first come first serve, free bags. That's what i think of. I arrived after the hot pants era.
demos-cracy, equality, inclusion, then. NOW it's Diversity, Equivocation, Indoctrination with progressive prices, unreliable energy, rationed services, uncivil rites, etc.
"Both Democrats and Republicans have moved from having government regulation assure fairness"
I reject the assumption that government regulation assures fairness.
rent-seek·ing
Economics
noun
the fact or practice of manipulating public policy or economic conditions as a strategy for increasing profits.
"cronyism and rent-seeking have become an integral part of the way our biggest companies do business"
Those were the days, my friend
We thought they'd never end...
Flight attendants used to be hot.
We have fallen so far as a nation.
"In the country where efficiency became a science, we’ve been bamboozled into accepting the idea that you have to pay extra to get the basics."
Air travel is "the basics?" First class is the basics?
If the Greenies get their way, only Party elites will have the basics. The rest of us can walk, bike, or go Greyhound.
Airlines can't survive on budget fares alone, and I haven't flown Southwest in ages because they never offer the lowest fare. If other people are willing to subsidize the cost of my low-fare ticket so that they can sit in the front of the plane, I take that as a win-win for both of us.
"I watched it twice and I really couldn't pick up the "democratize" message"
The writer stretched "cocktails for everybody" as Lockean theory... or something.
"Okay, sure, but the old Southwest system was all about choice; your seat was based not on how much extra you’d pay, but on how you want to use your points, when you want to check in, and how smart you are about choosing a seat once you’re on board. What’s more American than choice?"
Seems to me, choosing how much you want to pay is a choice: do I want a better seat or a cheaper seat?
Also, isn't rewarding the "smart" anti-DEI?
I don't see how this change can be considered the least bit "unamerican." They're switching from a first come first served free for all to an orderly process of people paying for the convenience of purchasing their seat locations in advance. (Which is what most airlines already do.)
Plus, under the current Southwest system, passengers were able to pay more to get moved closer to the front of the line.
"The airline currently puts customers in one of three boarding groups and assigns a number, setting off a mad dash to check in a day before the flight. Customers can get earlier boarding though if they pay for a higher-priced ticket, they’ll get a better boarding slot."
The one-price-for-all/first come first served model has never worked for airlines. Anyone remember People Express? That lasted a year or two. Airlines' fixed costs are too high for that. The only way they can be profitable is to charge more for people who are willing to pay more for better quality (or priority seating, or whatever). As others have said, there's nothing "un-American" about it. Hotels and many other businesses with high fixed costs do the same thing.
"Okay, sure, but the old Southwest system was all about choice; your seat was based not on how much extra you’d pay, but on how you want to use your points, when you want to check in, and how smart you are about choosing a seat once you’re on board. What’s more American than choice?". (emphasis added)
How are "points" not equivalent to money in this equation?
Who's paying more under Southwest's new system?
I had forgotten just how mini the miniskirts were in those days. Microskirts, is that a thing? And the go-go boots! And the mandatory age and weight restrictions! Totally, inexcusably sexist of course, but wow, brought back some dazzling memories from my teenage years.
If the Greenies get their way, only Party elites will have the basics. The rest of us can walk, bike, or go Greyhound.
Greyhound? Bite your tongue. Choo-choo trains everywhere, just like those sophisticated Europeans, who still need government subsidies for their railroads despite having ten times the population density.
Hassayamper said...
I had forgotten just how mini the miniskirts were in those days. Microskirts, is that a thing? And the go-go boots!
you can't tell in that fuzzy video.. But they are Hot Pants, not Micro-minis*
Micro-minis* but YES, that IS a thing.
Many dancers CAN'T AFFORD complete outfits, and HAVE TO skimp on material.. It's WHY you should TIP!
I'll say this for Jimmy Carter, he deregulated the airlines and interstate trucking. He also legalized home beer and wine making. By modern standards, he'd be a fantastic choice!
The Democrats control the Senate and the Presidency. Not to mention almost all the Federal Judiciary and DoJ. So, if American business is going to a two-tier "more money gets better service" economy, that's because the Democrats want it. Because they've done zero to stop it.
Its not an act of God. Or "the changing times".
Frankly, SW Airlines was right to get rid of "First in, first served". Its a dumb way to assign seating.
Remember when airlines loaded planes from the back to the front. No one wanted on early because why would anyone want to sit on the plane even longer?
Me too, and I love all those things. I'm bummed about the change.
The Southwest model was viable in a high trust society.
They usually offer my husband and me the lowest fare because we use our SW credit card for everything we possibly can, and therefore get an annual companion pass for me that's good for a year. I fly for $11 in fees wherever my husband goes. The empty nest means that I fly with him wherever and whenever he has to travel.
I recognize that this is not the norm!
I loved the two free checked bags but not having an assigned seat is very stress inducing.
Jamie said...
“They usually offer my husband and me the lowest fare because we use our SW credit card for everything we possibly can, and therefore get an annual companion pass for me that's good for a year. I fly for $11 in fees wherever my husband goes. The empty nest means that I fly with him wherever and whenever he has to travel.
I recognize that this is not the norm!”
So, are you saying it’s weird?
"I loved the two free checked bags..."
I'm sure SW has calculated how much it costs to move baggage from one point to another and has figured that somehow into the price of their tickets. The fact that it's not itemized does not mean it's free, they're just not telling you how much you're paying for the service.
Just sayin'.
Southwest is getting squeezed at both ends. Those savvy egalitarians that are Southwest’s bread and butter are opting for cheaper fares from newer low fare carriers while the traditional carriers offer a wider range of fares for more restrictions. Plus flying SW is like taking the local bus instead of the express…
…he writes from a plane…
Plus those savvy egalitarians suck more now, knowing all the tricks to skeef costly bennies they don’t pay for…
1972. When flying didn't suck.
Hopefully SW will bring back the mini-skirt and gogo boots.
Yes, that old Southwest ad caters to the male business traveler of the 1970s. The democratization came from the lower fares. The airline business these days is based on the business travelers still being the most profitable, but needing the revenue from the many more nonbusiness travelers to cover the cost of flying the plane, the same business model as the Titanic.
1972. When flying didn't suck.
But just about everything else did, complete with the worst presidential nominees ever (until 2016).
I've been flying SWA for years, and nothing about this description sounds recent unless you're making a comparison to 1972. A-List Preferred (the first group boarding) has been restricted to frequent SWA flyers for years. "Check in" has also for years been an online process opened 24 hours prior to scheduled departure time so what you did to get a good boarding slot was be free to have your finger hovering over your mouse button at the appropriate time. An upcharge for an automated check-in that randomly assigns boarding slots after the preferred group and before non-payers was added later.
Ultimately, everybody gets a seat on the plane, and as far I've ever been able to determine, every seat in an airplane arrives at the destination at the same time. If you choose to arrange your non-flying schedule so that it really matters in you are in the front or back of the plane, that's your issue, not the air carriers.
" ... we’ve been bamboozled into accepting the idea that you have to pay extra to get the basics. How sad."
A center seat on a safe and reliable aircraft is basic. A window or aisle seat is a step or two above and its value is determined by the person buying the ticket. One could reasonably argue that selling some seats for "less" opens the market to many who couldn't otherwise afford to fly.
[shrug] Fortunately for me, I don't really care where I sit. My husband uses all sorts of strategies to choose the row we hope we can have to ourselves (for those unaware of it, all SWA planes have rows of three starboard and three port seats, and I don't know why I'm going nautical but there you are), but if someone comes along wanting "our" middle seat, I just scoot over. And sometimes, especially when I'm tired, I sit in a different row altogether to have my own window to lean on.
But! I say again, we're not typical - he is an A List member so we always board in the first group of 60. So we have maximum choice. On those occasions when I fly alone, these days I've been flying Spirit for the most part, where I do have an assigned seat but have to pay to breathe. Whatever.
SW airlines used to have a lot of relatively short flights in the American west. LA-SF, SF-Las Vegas. phoenix - Portland. Etc.
So, first come first served seating made sense. Personally, I *DO* care where I sit, especially on long flights. Hell, is getting stuck in the middle. Give me a window seat any day, and if not, a row seat.
My worst flight experience was getting wedged in on a trans-continential flights with two fatties on either side.
The one airline commercial I remember from back then is where the passenger moves through the party in the front of the plane to the back and finds it is steerage with the dour passengers playing the Volga Boatman song.
And related was the Samsonite gorilla tossing about the suitcases.
I'm sure SW has calculated how much it costs to move baggage from one point to another and has figured that somehow into the price of their tickets. The fact that it's not itemized does not mean it's free, they're just not telling you how much you're paying for the service.
Just sayin'.
I can fly RT from Long Beach to Las Vegas on SWA for as low as $39 each way, and I can still check 2 bags and bring a carry on and a personal item on board.
"I can fly RT from Long Beach to Las Vegas on SWA for as low as $39 each way, and I can still check 2 bags and bring a carry on and a personal item on board."
Ok. Are you saying that SW doesn't know how much it costs them to do that?
In my business travel needs, dominated by the need to connect because San Antonio is not a hub, I've preferred to fly with airlines with strong Texas hubs. Over these decades that has made my choices: American, Continental (now United) and Southwest. The second criteria was international service. The third was the surety of reservation, particularly seating. While SWA passed the first criteria, it failed on the other two. I did fly on it occasionally, but I always hated the cattle car boarding experience.
SWA has been a major airline for a long time. The FAA keeps them as regional because they make the regional safety numbers look better. I OK flying on them, when needed, but I just don't. I'm thinking that a lot of business travelers are like me and want to know where they are going sit when they make their reservations. There's enough anxiety in business, we really don't need any extra.
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