June 13, 2024

"There was one really good thing about 'Hillbilly Elegy,' meaning the response to it: People were actually genuinely trying to understand something about a part of the country they didn’t understand."

"But there was something that wasn’t so good, which is that people were looking for some interpretive lens for Trump’s voters that never really asked them to challenge their priors or to rethink what they felt about those people. And I realized that I was being used as this whisperer of a phenomenon that some people really did want to understand, but some people didn’t. And the more that I felt like, not an explainer and a defender, but part of what I thought was wrong about the liberal establishment, the more that I felt this need to go very strongly away from it...."

Said J.D. Vance in an interview with Ross Douthat, "What J.D. Vance Believes" (NYT). This is a long interview, and that is a free-access link.

ADDED: This interview made me want to go back and read the reviews of "Hillbilly Elegy," which became a best-seller in the summer of 2016, before the shock of Donald Trump actually winning the election. I bought the book then myself, and I had the sense that it was written for liberals... who were pretty much exactly like what Vance describes in his new interview. 

From the NYT review by Jennifer Senior, August 10, 2016:
This is a historically peculiar election cycle, boisterously disrupted by outsiders, one of whom found the perfect host body in the Republican Party and became its presidential nominee.

The writer blithely portrays Donald Trump as a disease. 

An investigation of voter estrangement has never felt more urgent, and we’re certainly not getting one from the lacquered chatterers on the boob tube.

Now, along comes Mr. Vance, offering a compassionate, discerning sociological analysis of the white underclass that has helped drive the politics of rebellion, particularly the ascent of Donald J. Trump. Combining thoughtful inquiry with firsthand experience, Mr. Vance has inadvertently provided a civilized reference guide for an uncivilized election, and he’s done so in a vocabulary intelligible to both Democrats and Republicans....

See? There was a neat little place prepared for J.D. Vance. 

In a town where many children don’t finish high school, [Mamaw] raised a grandson who managed to graduate from Ohio State University and Yale Law School, defying skyscraping odds.... How much should he hold his hillbilly kin responsible for their own misfortunes.
In Mr. Vance’s estimation, the answer is: a lot. Economic insecurity, he’s convinced, accounts for only a small part of his community’s problems; the much larger issue is hillbilly culture itself. Though proud of it in many ways, he’s also convinced that it “increasingly encourages social decay instead of counteracting it.”

His frustration with the nonworking white poor is especially acute.... Time and again, Mr. Vance preaches a message of tough love and personal responsibility.... It’s always treacherous business to blame a group for its own misfortunes. Certainly, an outsider cannot say what Mr. Vance is saying to his kin and kind. But he can — just as President Obama can say to fellow African-Americans, “brothers should pull up their pants,” as he did on MTV.

The difference is that President Obama believes poverty, though it may have a cultural component, is largely a structural problem, one the government can play a large role in fixing. Mr. Vance, a conservative, takes a far dimmer view....

97 comments:

Shouting Thomas said...

I’m like most Trump voters, I’d assume. I voted for Trump and will vote for him again on policy.

I agree with him on policy. The most important policy issues are closing the southern border and no new foreign wars.

These articles attempting to assess a purported psychological pathology afflicting Trump supporters are lies, just another part of the psy-ops to defeat the policy stands Trump embraces.

Such articles are just insults masquerading as intellectual analysis. There’s nothing difficult to understand about Trump voters. They support him on policy.

rehajm said...

…what Shouting Thomas said. They are not trying to understand voters they are belittling the savages. Fuck them…

Breezy said...

One of my friends just asked me to explain why I vote the way I do, as if it’s perplexing why anyone would vote for Trump. Honestly, I need new friends who don’t live in a bubble.

Christopher B said...

Republicans In The Mist.

tim maguire said...

people were looking for some interpretive lens for Trump’s voters that never really asked them to challenge their priors or to rethink what they felt about those people

Nothing is more important to the liberal than not having their worldview challenged. They don't notice liberal bias and they are incapable of examining assumptions and principles--if a liberal program didn't work, it's because they didn't try hard enough. Real communism has never been tried. (This is generally true of partisans, but it's ingrained on the left in a way that goes beyond politics into every aspect of their lives.)

They will rally around anyone who tells them what they want to hear and will reflexively dismiss as stupid or evil anybody inconvenient to their plans.

Humperdink said...

What ST said.

It amuses me when I ask why people why they are voting for the walking cadaver. The name Trump highlights their response ..... as in every other word.

rhhardin said...

A Don Rickles sense of humor defeats the deep state, is why.

Immanuel Rant said...

Christopher B beat me to it, but I was going with "Hillbillies in the Mist."

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Right off Shouting and Chris B put their fingers on the problem, further explicated by Rehajm. But there’s another factor at play here that the DNC Media Complex is continually working like Sisyphus to overcome. We have rejected their mythology wholesale and every day more Americans join us in ignoring their propaganda. They and Leftists stubbornly cling to the Narrative even as it crumbles around us: J6, “fine people,” “steady statesman Joe,” “no election fraud,” “Trump is Hitler,” “DDay ‘suckers and losers,’” “Trump is Stalin,” etc.

There are of course too many to name or even keep track. New themes and lies (“the border is secure”) are added to their burden, and as in 1984 they become more absurd (“men can menstruate “) as the Uniparty demands obedience over all. They learn to simultaneously declare Trump a Nazi while giving full support to rampaging mobs waving swastikas and chasing down and assaulting Jews. This cognitive dissonance doesn’t work on hillbillies or normies or anyone who believes in the Classical Liberal truths and principles on which this great nation was founded.

Keep rejecting their myths. Keep thinking for yourself. That simple act is driving them to self destruction.

Drago said...

Shouting Thomas: "These articles attempting to assess a purported psychological pathology afflicting Trump supporters are lies, just another part of the psy-ops to defeat the policy stands Trump embraces."

Completely correct.

Trump support is policy and "he fights for me" driven.

What continues to surprise is how many republicans still act like leftists/dems in pushing the "cult" lie...even on this very blog.

gspencer said...

Conservative-thinking people understand, by and large, why liberals (in contrasts to out-n-out lefties*) think as they do. This understanding is not reciprocal.

*Who are bent on destroying for the sake of destroying the status quo and then substituting tyranny in its place

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/conservative-and-liberal-brains-might-have-some-real-differences/

Tina Trent said...

Douthat would not treat Nancy Pelosi or any other Democrat this way. Vance was very honest and fair, and he wanted to bring the conversation back to issues and debunk the pernicious lies used by the left. Douthat wanted to wallow in them, and whenever immigration cane up, he just tried to talk about anything else.

This was shameful.

Humperdink said...

Former Republican Speaker Paul Ryan stated he would not vote for Trump. What does this mean? It means hard-core conservatives were right all along about this fraud.

boatbuilder said...

I thought that in Hillbilly Elegy he was too accepting of the elite liberal consensus. Based on this interview, the scales have fallen from his eyes. He gets it.

I agree with just about everything he said in the piece. Which means he's brilliant, of course.

Kakistocracy said...

He comes from Ohio, the home of the Taft family, once upon a time the Great Republican family, far more accomplished than the Bush family and other ne'er-do-wells. Senator Robert Taft, the great appeaser and anti-internationalist of the 1930s, 40s, and 50s — and almost the 1952 Republican presidential candidate — was nicknamed Mr. Republican.

That is who these people are — and always have been. The bell tolls for the Eisenhower legacy to the Republican party. The Tafts are back!

boatbuilder said...

Like a lot of other elite conservatives and elite liberals, I allowed myself to focus so much on the stylistic element of Trump that I completely ignored the way in which he substantively was offering something very different on foreign policy, on trade, on immigration.

His comments on the crisis for the working class, immigration and tariffs are spot on. As are his positions on Ukraine, the 2020 election, and China.

boatbuilder said...

Also Rich doesn't like him. Need I say more?

imTay said...

The lived experience of many Trump voters has led them come to the conclusion that competition for rentals has greatly stiffened as Joe Biden has let in millions and uncountable more, increasing the pricing power, as Rich puts it, of landlords, who skew affluent and Democratic.

No major news outlets have the slightest interest in running stories on the legitimate issues that motivate Trump voters.

God of the Sea People said...

Amusing that the NYT starts out the piece by disclaiming that Vance is "unsupported and unpersuasive," lest any reader make the mistake of listening to him with an open mind.

MartyH said...

I see Vance as a modern day Nick Carroesy. Comes from the Midwest, explores the East, returns home in disgust. IIRC, they’re both Yalies and vets.

Maybe there’s also a parallel between Nick’s relationship with Gatsby and Vanc’s relationship with his voters-that he’s the only one who really cares. People went to Gatsby’s parties and didn’t attend his funeral; politicians expect votes while destroying communities.

Chuck said...

Thanks for the free link, Althouse. I needed to read that in its entirety. Because it's necessary to be specific, in order to debunk J.D. Vance. J.D. Vance, who might just be the one politician in America who is in the most serious need of the most serious debunking.

Just off the top; Douthat never asks Vance about all of the stuff that Vance has said about Trump in the past. That's not simply 'politelness in the interest of doing a more in-depth interview.' That's depriving a whole world of readers -- who don't actually know what Vance said about Trump in the past -- of critical information connected to this interview.

“I’m a Never Trump guy,” Vance said in an interview with Charlie Rose in 2016, a clip used in both the new ads. “I never liked him.”

Both ads also feature a screenshot of a Vance tweet from October 2016. “My god what an idiot,” he wrote, referring to Trump.

Vance expressed a similar sentiment in other interviews and since-deleted tweets from that time, including publicly mulling the idea of supporting Hillary Clinton, calling Trump “noxious” and “reprehensible.”


As usual, J.D. Vance prattles on about how he is a standard bearer for the working poor, without any mention of health care for them. Seemingly without even acknowledging the terrible joke of Trump promising a "replacement for Obamacare" a hundred different times without ever delivering so much as a line of reform.

I was fascinated, reading Vance's long appraisal of the complex principles involved in obtaining a workable peace plan for Ukraine. Loaded with compromises and tradeoffs and substantially a win for Russia. If I had been Douthat, I would have allowed Vance to finish anything he wanted to say, and would then have asked him, "But Trump says he will solve the war in a day as soon as he is back in office. Why haven't you asked him about what THAT plan is?"

One thing Vance does in this interview is to claim that his early self-authored "first TV ad" was what propelled him to a primary victory in Ohio. That is simply untrue. Vance was languishing in third or fourth place in a five-person race while that ad was running. Vance became the leader in that bitterly-fought primary only when -- and not before -- he got Trump's personal endorsement in that race.

Vance's bullshit about the 2020 election would be hateful if it weren't so funny, at least as to what he conceded in this interview. "Do I think [that after a Constitutional challenge with alternate electors pressed forward by Vice President Pence; a crisis that Vance said he would have been good] Joe Biden would still be President right now? Yeah, probably." I know that I would have spent the next half-hour with him reviewing Trump's reapeated, regular claims that it had been "stolen."

Thanks again for the link, Althouse. I think it was good to be exposed to this kind of Vance-info, no matter how (Vance's word here) "noxious" in might be.

hawkeyedjb said...

The New York Times and Ross Douthat do not exist to assuage or even understand the concerns of the lesser beings that exist outside their ken. They are here to prick any sores and exploit any weaknesses they see. How remarkable that they are all Democrats. Franklin Roosevelt spoke of the ill-clad, ill-housed, ill-nourished. Modern Democrats say: If they're white, fuck 'em.

Temujin said...

Christopher B nailed it at 6:15.

Chuck said...

Shouting Thomas said...
I’m like most Trump voters, I’d assume. I voted for Trump and will vote for him again on policy.
...
Such articles are just insults masquerading as intellectual analysis. There’s nothing difficult to understand about Trump voters. They support him on policy.

"Policy..." for a party that has literally abandoned all pretense of a party platform. Hasn't had one in years.

Even Trump knows that it isn't about "policy." At least not any serious policy. We are just about exactly one year removed from Trump's infamous speech to the NC GOP state convention. Where Trump spontaneously remarked on his crowd's wild reaction to his anti-transgender position, while only clapping politely to "tax cuts." It was never about policy. It was about being given public permission to hate.

Achilles said...

Shouting Thomas said...

Such articles are just insults masquerading as intellectual analysis. There’s nothing difficult to understand about Trump voters. They support him on policy.

There are two groups that use this same tactic.

Democrats and Nevertrump Republicans. Both pretend to be smarter than Trump supporters and ignore the real reasons we support Trump.

The real reason we support Trump is we realized both of those groups are really just one group and Trump is the only alternative in these elections including all other Republicans not named Vivek.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

" is largely a structural problem, one the government can play a large role in fixing."

the government does not fix things. The government makes things worse.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

Agree with the first two comments.

The left have nothing but insults ... snooty down their nose insults.
How dare you not support the corruptocratic insider.

Kakistocracy said...

JD Vance is not the first isolationist from the middle of the country. There were many appeasers before 1941 and they were all discredited once the Japanese blew the newly installed Pacific fleet in Hawaii apart.

Senator Vance is half right on some things and misleading or forgetful in others.

Firstly framing America’s entire defense spending as a subsidy to Europe is disingenuous. It assumes that America’s armed forces would only be used to defend Europe. In fact they may be used in the far east (Vietnam), Middle East (Iraq, Syria), South America (Munro doctrine) or against China. They may also be used to defend America. The fact this seems unlikely is because the Americans have spent so much to amass the most powerful military in the world.

The senator is however correct that Europe should be able to defend itself. Europeans have historically been a continent at war with each other. The EU has brought them together. Europeans hoped that after the fall of the Soviet Union, they would not face war on their continent in their lifetime. Unfortunately they were wrong. Spending more money and spending it better on armed forces is a good idea.

The senator forgets that NATO’s article 5 has only ever been triggered by the United States. British men stood shoulder to shoulder with their American cousins. They fought and died alongside them. Painting it as a one sided transfer of American money to Europeans is misleading.

Finally, the senator takes it for granted that Europe is full of American allies. Imagine if Russia wins in Ukraine and moves onto Moldova and Latvia, while using hybrid war fare to weaken Europe further: funding parties on the extreme left and extreme right, transporting migrants to European borders, spreading disinformation, turning their citizens against each other and to favor Russian interests. We could see Europe destabilized and full of Russia-friendly countries like Hungary. If that were to happen and US lost its allies, its power and influence would be diminished.

The Senator thinks that the United States spends money and gets nothing in return. He is wrong.

Shouting Thomas said...

Note that ellipsis in Chuck’s response saying that issues are irrelevant to Trump voters. Here’s what he omitted from my remarks:

I agree with him on policy. The most important policy issues are closing the southern border and no new foreign wars.

I stated specific policy positions, which he hid from his response, for the obvious reason.

He then proclaims that the real reason I voted for Trump is that I’m a hateful bigot. Mind reading without any substance. Insults based on nothing.

Chuck inadvertently confirmed and illustrated my remarks. Thanks, Chuck.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

Chuck -
Then Trump became president - and horror of horrors - America got better.
I didn't like Trump either... Still not a fan of his communications skills. But America was thriving under Trump ... UNTIL the Chi-Com Fauci dem-party Arabella virus arrived.

JD Vance changed his mind.

Like you did, but you got it wrong and turned into a lying Maddow watching NBC swilling leftist.

So Chuck - YOU are allowed to change your mind - but no one else is? Is that how it works- oh hive-minder Chuck?

Chuck - you prefer decay, lies, government spread diseases, big pharma money whores, Fauci, and Crook Joe and his cabal... and all of the lying liars who lie in the corrupt msm(D).

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

War machine NBC Rich hath spoken.

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

JD Vance is in many ways an admirable man having come from such meager circumstances. He's also very naive if he thinks the Left can view anything in any way that doesn't ultimately turn into an explanation of their own perceived superiority over the rest of us.

Breezy said...

There’s a Russian naval group positioned off the east coast of Florida right now. Forget Moldova, how about if Russia moves into Florida?

Mr Wibble said...

That is who these people are — and always have been. The bell tolls for the Eisenhower legacy to the Republican party. The Tafts are back!

Good. Eisenhower was a disaster for the GOP. His legacy should be burned to ash.

Kate said...

Thanks, Althouse. Very interesting.

Vance's comments at the end of the interview about Jan 6 are a perspective I haven't heard expressed before. Trump's response was possibly the best option, not the worst as Douthat believes.

Vance stresses something that some commenters here haven't grasped: we are no longer a unipolar or bipolar world. We are multipolar. It's a huge shift in perspective and in foreign policy objectives.

Quaestor said...

Rich writes, "The Senator thinks that the United States spends money and gets nothing in return. He is wrong."

Rich is absolutely correct. A planet-destroying asteroid impact isn't nothing, either.

Some things aren't worth having.

Tom T. said...

Rich, the 1980s called, and they want their foreign policy back.

Chuck said...

Rich, at 8:17 AM...

Rich in connection with your comment, I just wanted to highlight one paragraph from this Vance interview.

And No. 3 is acknowledging that we’re in a multipolar world, and we need allies to step up in big ways so that we can focus on East Asia, which is where our most significant competitor is for the next 20 or 30 years.

Yeah; we need our allies to step up. We also need to cultivate, coordinate and really build those alliances. I cannot even say, how often I hear ignorant TrumpWingers fret about how the United States can possibly fight a war in Ukraine at the same time as a war in the Taiwan Strait. It's simple. The way we do that is with the help of our NATO allies in Europe (the most powerful military alliance in world history) and with the help of our Pacific rim allies (Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, and possibly with India as well) versus China.

The U.S. is a superpower. Whose real superpower is worldwide international alliances. And Presiednt Biden is doing a superb job of managing and nurturing those alliances. Trump was regarded as a clown by the international community. And the worst thing in all of that is that TrumpWorld thinks of that as a feature, and not a bug.

Michael said...

Marty @7:43 has a solid insight that deserves discussion. Vance is one of the very few in American politics who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks. What fascinated me in Hillbilly Elegy was how incredibly fragile his upbringing was. Just one small misstep, one slightly wrong turn and his path to the Marines and then college would have permanently truncated his possibilities. The rich and upper middle class kids can make those mistakes, but mommy and money can paper over the consequences.

That's what Nick saw in Gatsby and his hangers on. The absolute indifference to those they harm. It is a perfect analogy to America's political, business, academic and media elite.

Yancey Ward said...

Christopher B. wins the internet for today!

Yancey Ward said...

"The bell tolls for the Eisenhower legacy to the Republican party. The Tafts are back!"

Raised hands for those who didn't know Little Richie has absolutely no clue what Dwight Eisenhower believed in?

Drago said...

LLR-democratical And Violent Homosexual Rage Rape Fantasist Chuck: "Rich, at 8:17 AM...
Rich in connection with your comment,..."

LOL

The LLR-democratical Brigade is out in force on a Thursday morning and kicking up as much dust as they possibly can to try and obscure the complete and utter failure of their democratical policies.

Desperation is definitely settling in on the left and far left, as evidenced by Chuck's and Rich's hilariously pathetic offerings.

I suspect this trend will accelerate as their gaslighting lies about job numbers, inflation, open borders, massive increase in crime, foreign policy failure, even history etc., are failing across the board.

Ampersand said...

Too many of those who post here are closet Nevertrumpers who fail to see that they are not worthy to touch the hem of DJT's silk boxer shorts. They are too insignificant and broken as human beings to even be allowed to cast their votes for Trump. We reject their paltry support for mere "policies" and promise a stiff necked, stiff backed commitment to unyielding unquestioning support for DJT. We are strong believers in strong beliefs, and condemn these mealy mouthed lukewarm temporizers for the proto-traitors that they are.

Onward to total unity and victory in November!

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Ike was a Democrat.

Old and slow said...

It seems like Trump voters learned a valuable lesson from the complete failures in Iraq and Afghanistan. We figured out how pointless and expensive these wars were, and that maybe the US would be better served by avoiding these entanglements. Weird that the putative lefties are now all in for foreign wars.

Birches said...

He also offered a combative (and, to my mind, fundamentally unsupported and unpersuasive) defense of Trump’s conduct after the 2020 election

This throat clearing is so dumb, but exactly why Douthat is allowed to write at the NYT.

Meade said...

Chuck said...
“Simple! Because absolutely every conversation about Trump, or elections, should include mention of Donald Trump’s psychopathological unfitness for office. As ever, I’m working to drive wedges between the GOP, the Federalist Society, conservatism, etc., and everything “Trump.”

“I’m not trying to be fair or balanced or helpful or anything like that. I’m trying to undermine Trump’s campaign. All that other good stuff comes after we have driven a wooden stake through the vampire heart of Trumpism.“



Meade said…
Absolutely every reply to Chuck should include mention of Chuck’s psychopathological unfitness for commenting here, his Cluster B personality disorders, his unexamined dedication to sadism and maleficence.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

"One-China" policy is new - and is all Biden Cabal.


Since Biden and his cabal make so much money off the Chi Coms, and the rest of the insider class of grifting greed heads on the left are fine throwing Taiwan, a soverign nation - under the bus.

Iman said...

Margaret Mead… call for you on the white courtesy phone…

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

Ampersand..

Indeed. and Heh.
Trump must be worshiped as an unquestioned flawless deity. or - we are not good enough to vote for him.

Yancey Ward said...

That Chuck and Rich are anti-Vance says all you really need to know about J.D. Vance.

I read Hillbilly Elegy before Vance ran for Senator but long after it came out- there is a lot wrong in it about the culture and I grew up in a much more poverty-stricken region of Appalachia than Vance did, so I do know what I am talking about, but I put it down to Vance needing to get the book published and purchased by exactly the kinds of people he describes in the interview- people not like me at all. As it turns out, he just seems have been blinkered himself a bit and now realizes it. With that out the way, Vance got a lot right in the book, too. I kind of wish he would write a second edition.

Birches said...

Douthat is such a tool for the end of that interview. It's no different than "But what about your gaaafffes?!"

Birches said...

And to put on my tinfoil hat for a minute, I think we will find out years from now that Sydney Powell and Mike Flynn were being played by the CIA so they would end up looking like crazy people for talking about the kraken and whatnot.

Drago said...

I am a bit surprised LLR-democratical And Violent Homosexual Rage Rape Fantasist Chuck is posting at Althouse bloh today as I thought it was going to be a full workday for volunteers at the Michigan Democrat Party headquarters.

But then I also remembered that Chuck's 2 explicitly stated reasons for posting at Althouse are:
- smear and lie about conservatives
- drive a wedge between Althouse and her readers

Yancey Ward said...

Given the level of animus that Vance is drawing from the likes of Chuck and Rich, he is probably the very best pick for Trump's VP from the Republican Party itself. You know who the Never-Trumpers fear the most now.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

The way we do that is with the help of our NATO allies in Europe (the most powerful military alliance in world history)

Past tense. Was the most powerful. As Trump correctly diagnosed the problem was that none of our Euro allies were holding up their part of NATO, and still aren't even expending the minimum GDP to build up. That's why their "help" in Ukraine has been sorry and weak. Which is why we poured hundreds of billions of our dollars into unworthy hands in Ukraine, who are misusing it and lining their own pockets. And now Macron wants to actively enter it and invoke article 5 so we have to send troops. Stupid. NATO is dead if that happens. Trump's Asia-Pacific alliance is a far stronger and more effective force against China's aggression than your fantasy version of NATO. It's just makeup and good lighting, Chuck. It ain't real. Stick to analyzing michigan local races. You know zip about the world.

Trump was regarded as a clown by the international community

Bullshit. It's projection on your part and Bill Kristol's. Then the commie progressive Press tells you so and you believe it even harder. Our Allies were actually responding to the incentives and browbeating Trump employed and our enemies held their expansionism, which did impress our allies. You think they have confidence in poop-pants Joe? Joe practically invited Putin into Ukraine and has, and is, slow-walking "help" every step of the way. It's hard not to see it as a slow-motion start to WWIII.

Unless you're a dufus nevertrumper, then having blinders on is de rigeur.

Drago said...

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves: "Ampersand..

Indeed. and Heh.
Trump must be worshiped as an unquestioned flawless deity. or - we are not good enough to vote for him."

And there it is. Just as you might hear it on MSNBC.

The GOPe suckups have the same blindspots as the far left...and they likely always will.

Yancey Ward said...

And before I forget it, a plus 100 to Marty's analogy to Nick Carroway in The Great Gatsby- it is spot on and I wish I had thought of that one myself.

Freder Frederson said...

I agree with him on policy. The most important policy issues are closing the southern border and no new foreign wars.

You do realize that Trump is making noises about invading Mexico, don't you?

And for the record, more U.S. military personnel were killed during the Trump administration than under Biden. So your fond recall of "peace" during the Trump administration is just bullshit.

Yancey Ward said...

"And to put on my tinfoil hat for a minute, I think we will find out years from now that Sydney Powell and Mike Flynn were being played by the CIA so they would end up looking like crazy people for talking about the kraken and whatnot."

I wrote it at the time just after the election and many times since then- the 81 million ballots with Biden voted for exist physically- the huge fraction of election fraud was never in the voting machines- it was in the mail-in-ballots- recounts were never going to change the outcome or uncover the fraud. I don't know why the Trump campaign lawyers got side-tracked the way Powell etal. did but it could simply have been pure stupidity.

Drago said...

LLR-democratical And Violent Homosexual Rage Rape Fantasist Chuck: "The way we do that is with the help of our NATO allies in Europe (the most powerful military alliance in world history)..."

Go ahead Chuck/Rich: Describe the current full combat capabilities of say, just Germany. Lets make it easy for the LLR-democratical Brigade.

We'll wait....and wait...and wait....

Spoiler: a couple of Brigades, a couple tacair squadrons, a couple operational subs, etc.

A hollow shell.

Thats the NATO of today.

Why?

Because the "experts" and insiders Chuck/Rich follow like children enriched themselves as they let NATO hollow out as the US spent itself into readiness oblivion.

And here we are...with nothing to show for it after 30 years.

Drago said...

Field Marshall Freder: "And for the record, more U.S. military personnel were killed during the Trump administration than under Biden. So your fond recall of "peace" during the Trump administration is just bullshit."

Provide the total number of military deaths by the years in question along with a breakdown of the specific causes: combat fatalities, accidents, homicides, suicides, etc.

Dont worry Freder. We wont be holding our breath or anything.

Freeman Hunt said...

You can't use Hillbilly Elegy to understand "Trump voters." (Scare quotes because one so rarely sees "Biden voters" referred to as a distinct group.) The people depicted in Hillbilly Elegy generally don't vote. But they are what progressives like to imagine conservatives to be.

Drago said...

Freeman Hunt: "The people depicted in Hillbilly Elegy generally don't vote."

They "didn't" vote...but they did in 2016 and 2020 in large numbers to support Trump.

Trump, singularly, has demonstrated the ability to motivate these historically non-voters/low propensity voters to come out.

These are not GOP voters by any stretch, and they are fully aware the GOPe suckups hate their guts (as seen on Althouse blog as well) so it will be a challenge to get them to continue committing to voting GOP once Trump is gone.

Achilles said...

Freder Frederson said...

I agree with him on policy. The most important policy issues are closing the southern border and no new foreign wars.

You do realize that Trump is making noises about invading Mexico, don't you?

And for the record, more U.S. military personnel were killed during the Trump administration than under Biden. So your fond recall of "peace" during the Trump administration is just bullshit.



Freder Frederson is just a completely dishonest piece of shit. Notice the dishonest inferrances, innuendo, and non-sequitur. That is all these people have.

This is exactly what this post is about.

Freder is a warmonger, supports open borders, wants to raise taxes on the middle class, supports censorship and jailing political opponents. The NeverTrump republicans all supported the same garbage.

They cannot deal with the truth. This is just a carry over from the dishonesty in the Trump "trial."

They cannot honestly discuss what we want and what they want.

Mike (MJB Wolf) said...

Dont worry Freder. We wont be holding our breath or anything.

Military deaths are tragic, but also part of the package deal our armed services offer recruits.

What's more horrifying as an civilian American who used to travel overseas a lot, and relied on the State Department to have my back in case shit hit the fan ("always carry the number for the embassy"), is all the civilians that Biden has stranded overseas on his rush to set an unbeatable record of embassy abandonments and broken promises. And the bootlicking Press just moves along, no reporting on those stranded Americans, same as they show no interest in the Americans held by Hamas.

Big headline just today was that two Knights of Columbus pilots (retired NJ state troopers) have rescued 143 Americans from Haiti, including author Mitch Albom who founded an orphanage there. Another case of private actors stepping up where the US Government refuses to care for its citizens. Same thing happened in Afghanistan. Same thing happened in Somalia. No doubt I'm forgetting other Biden fuckups, but this is a big change from the past, when ambassadors were responsible for keeping a list of every single Americans in their country. We've never even heard an accounting from the Kabul embassy. We don't KNOW how many Americans still suffer there. General Milley testified even he couldn't get a numbner out of the embassy, much less a list.

But we know that embassy flew the Pride flag just before the bungle out. That's the order of priorities for the Left. Symbolism is more important than citizenship. Eggs and omelets and all that.

Drago said...

Just today:

"Saudi Arabia's 50-year-old petrodollar agreement with the United States has expired, with no new agreement in place.

Saudi Arabia will now sell oil in multiple currencies, including the Chinese RMB, Euros, Yen, and Yuan, instead of exclusively in US dollars."

This is no surprise whatsoever given the New Soviet Democraticals and their NPC foreign policy minions Chuck, Rich et al official policy is the elevating and establishing the Mad Islamic Supremacist Mullahs in Tehran as the supreme middle east power.

So very very "masterful"....

Drago said...

Hey Chuck/Rich, hows that Germany Combat Readiness Report coming along?

Don't leave us in suspense re: the key European "Playa" in the "Most powerful military alliance" in history!

Joe Smith said...

Haven't read the book or seen the movie but I might.

Just as no journalist knows anybody with a pickup truck, most middle/upper-middle class Americans don't know anything about 'real' America.

My grandparents lived in a trailer most of their lives. I was lucky to 'escape' that world, but I know it.

When we went to West Virginia on vacation to play golf, we met some very poor people in an absolutely gorgeous state. When I tell anyone about the trip, the first thing I usually hear is a marrying your sister joke or something about not having all of your teeth.

It's a snobbery, or maybe a fear of being that poor person. If they make fun of them they won't become them. But all the people I met there were very real and very kind.

Just trying to get along like everyone else.

mezzrow said...

We don't vote for Democrats any more because, like Chuck and Rich, they hold us in contempt. So do their policies.

Democrats run this culture and in their wisdom, maneuvered the politics of the situation so that all they had to do was beat Donald Trump (a life long Democrat), an individual widely held in contempt for his admittedly contemptuous personal behavior.

They are still holding us in contempt while they deal with the consequences of that decision. The degree to which they loathe and despise those who oppose them (that's you and me) becomes more apparent each day. My greatest fear is what they will do if and when they lose every thing they hold dear (that would be power.)

New York is providing a preview in their courts. Stay tuned.

Joe Smith said...

'Provide the total number of military deaths by the years in question along with a breakdown of the specific causes: combat fatalities, accidents, homicides, suicides, etc.'

Anyone killed in a foreign country was there because a democrat president put them there.

Or a Bush, which is the same thing...

Joe Smith said...

Btw, my comments keep disappearing.

Tina Trent said...

Rich: the Isolationist movements were very complex, and it wasn't just Americans who were looking back at the carnage of WWI and hoping for a different trajectory the next time. And when America went to war, isolationists didn't hesitate to volunteer and serve heroically, despite Roosevelt's spite. Even a divisive figure like Lindbergh provided a great service to Roosevelt before the war, relaying information back to the U.S. and its aircraft developers about the strengths and weaknesses of Germany's war machine -- gaining access by publically praising them, at great personal sacrifice. He then flew combat missions for the Allies and was a key figure in advancing our aviation capacities and flight routes.

People debate entering wars. The world was still shuddering, humanly and economically from the First World War, which changed warfare and the European political landscape so profoundly that the men who would be fighting the next one had every reason to believe they were being led by the nose to die merely for Roosevelt's growing incontinence and for wealthy men and leaders who didn't risk their lives but profited from the war machine. Kind of like the Lincoln Project. Roosevelt himself had reservations, when he wasn't off screwing his mistress on a mountaintop in Georgia.

Hassayamper said...

@Chuck: Trump spontaneously remarked on his crowd's wild reaction to his anti-transgender position, while only clapping politely to "tax cuts." It was never about policy. It was about being given public permission to hate.

People with wives, sisters, mothers and especially daughters care a lot more about their individual well-being than the long-term capital-gains tax rate, let alone the outcome of a war on the other side of the world that is none of our business. You bet your ass I hate the people who are forcing them to share locker rooms and showers with obnoxious male sex-fetishists.

This is not to say that I hate the poor disturbed men themselves as a class, although some of the more belligerent and violent ones are certainly worthy of it. Who I REALLY hate are the smug liberals assuring me that these deviants are in fact women, and people should go to prison for saying otherwise. I don't want to share a nation with such enemies of right and reason, and in the medium to long term, I don't think we will continue to do so.

Hassayamper said...

I wrote it at the time just after the election and many times since then- the 81 million ballots with Biden voted for exist physically- the huge fraction of election fraud was never in the voting machines- it was in the mail-in-ballots- recounts were never going to change the outcome or uncover the fraud.

Correct. Recounts in the Dominion era are like re-counting a cash register full of counterfeit bills. We need audits, not recounts. And we need paper ballots counted by hand.

who-knew said...

Chuck said/posted (I'm not sure if these are his words or the headline from the MSNBC clip he posted)"Where Trump spontaneously remarked on his crowd's wild reaction to his anti-transgender position, while only clapping politely to "tax cuts." It was never about policy. It was about being given public permission to hate." That's right, refuse to admit that the icky Trump supporters have any rational reasons for opposing anything and just boil it down to 'hate'. Same with the debate about Ukraine policy. It's a perfect illustration of North of the OneOhOne's point: " He's also very naive if he thinks the Left can view anything in any way that doesn't ultimately turn into an explanation of their own perceived superiority over the rest of us.". I thought the most perceptive thing Senator Vance said was that military power is downstream from industrial power. You can argue about how to reverse course on that but at least Trump speaks to it and has somewhat of a plan. The Democrats argue that the status quo is just fine despite the obvious hollowing out of our manufacturing capabilities caused by the very policies they will just continue.

Hassayamper said...

@Frederson: You do realize that Trump is making noises about invading Mexico, don't you?

He's making noises about attacking the cartels directly, with cruise missiles and such. Works for me. We won't be occupying one square foot of soil.

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Humperdink said...
It amuses me when I ask why people why they are voting for the walking cadaver. The name Trump highlights their response ..... as in every other word.

The response to that should be "so then, if DeSantis was running, would you vote for him?"

I expect their honest answer is "no", because it's all about policy and power, not about Trump. But it would be interesting to ask them.

The Vault Dweller said...

This was a good interview. If you are on the Left it is worth the read and can give you insights into the motivations of the emerging Trump majority populism in the Republican party. I doubt it will persuade you on anything but it can give you knowledge. It is my sense that J.D. Vance is being honest and forthright in his responses. I think there is great value to be had similar to how I think there is great value to be had for folks on the right in reading some of the comments from the Lefties who post here.

All that being said, this passage was very alarming but also convinced me Trump is absolutely needed now because he has the courage and political adroitness to deal with it if elected.

I first met Trump in 2021. One of the stories he told me was about how some of our generals were changing the timings of troop redeployments in the Middle East so that they could tell him that the troop levels were coming down when in reality they were just changing the way in which troop levels jump up and down in the short term.

This kind of behavior is exactly what I think of when I think of "The Swamp.' Self-serving and swamp ecosystem-serving behavior obfuscated by dishonest but technically true statements. The institutions are corrupted and they need to be cleaned up. Those that can't be cleaned up need to be amputated and tossed in the medical-waste bin.

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Chuck said/posted (I'm not sure if these are his words or the headline from the MSNBC clip he posted)"Where Trump spontaneously remarked on his crowd's wild reaction to his anti-transgender position, while only clapping politely to "tax cuts." It was never about policy. It was about being given public permission to hate."

Yeah, you top really have to hate girls and women, to want to let males to take over and destroy "women's sports"

You really have to hate females, to want to take away their ability to have private spaces where they can go to the bathroom, shower, change, etc. without having men their showing off their dicks to little girls, and googling teh naked women

You really have to hate mentally disturbed kids to want to get them addicted for life to "gender affirming" drugs, while permanently destroying their ability to have functional sexual relationships.

Why are you leftists such haters?

JK Brown said...

How much should he hold his hillbilly kin responsible for their own misfortunes.In Mr. Vance’s estimation, the answer is: a lot. Economic insecurity, he’s convinced, accounts for only a small part of his community’s problems; the much larger issue is hillbilly culture itself. Though proud of it in many ways, he’s also convinced that it “increasingly encourages social decay instead of counteracting it.”

Vance can say that about white rednecks and people nod, but when Thomas Sowell describes similar culture for urban blacks in 'Black Rednecks and White Liberals" the reaction is structural racism, etc. as Obama intimated.

A10pilot said...

Selena Zito nailed it years ago:
“Trump voters take him seriously but not literally. Liberals take him literally but not seriously.”

Or words to that effect.

Yancey Ward said...

On the pacifists of the WWI era- had the U.S. never entered World War I, it is quite probable that World War II never would have occurred- the combatants would probably have killed each other until 1925 or so before finally swearing off war in complete and utter exhaustion.

The Cracker Emcee said...

"It seems like Trump voters learned a valuable lesson from the complete failures in Iraq and Afghanistan. We figured out how pointless and expensive these wars were, and that maybe the US would be better served by avoiding these entanglements."

Huuuuge for this Cracker. Truly an Emperor's New Clothes moment in terms of my understanding of the Establishment and the essential meaningless of party affiliation as an indicator of competence. Or a lack of malice towards the average American.

Readering said...

Shouting Thomas: I've always accepted your rationale for general elections. It explains my mom's vote for Trump in 2016. But he was her last choice in the 2016 primary for the reasons so many reject him altogether. (She voted against him over covid in 2020--then died from it before the year ended.)

Aggie said...

The people in Hillbilly Elegy are a subgroup of a larger class of rural / semi-rural Americans that have been made into sad victims of their deteriorating environment. The deterioration is a result of the indifferent neglect from corporate capitalism and from establishment politics. But the suffering its toll are indisputable.

The people that scorn this class have been made into victims in their own way, by a similar process - the deterioration arising from the indifferent neglect and malfeasance of corporate media, and from establishment politics.

Only the first of these groups acknowledges their status as an underclass. The other celebrates it, ignorant of their own plight.

Mason G said...

"The response to that should be "so then, if DeSantis was running, would you vote for him?""

If DeSantis was running, leftists would say he's worse than Trump. Everybody knows this.

traditionalguy said...

The conundrum of the American experiment has always been that Hillbillies were the point of the spear that fought in many desperate battles to defeat national enemies. Boy does that factoid anger the EDU elites who are ashamed of having such deplorable Scots Irish among us.

I suppose that is also why woke people in authority insist that history be cleansed of their exploits. But there is a time for war. And losing a war is about as bad as it gets. Ergo: Trump who turns 78 tomorrow needs J D Vance to be our VP.

traditionalguy said...

Just looked up J D Vance and discovered his J D stands for James David. One more reason to like him. I are a James David too.

Kakistocracy said...

"There’s a Russian naval group positioned off the east coast of Florida right now."

Of course Russian ships want to go to the Caribbean, it's a lot safer for them there than the Black Sea. Putin wants to keep what's left of the Russian navy intact.

Rusty said...

Breezy said...
"There’s a Russian naval group positioned off the east coast of Florida right now. Forget Moldova, how about if Russia moves into Florida?"

It's four ships and one of them is a tug in case one of em breaks down. The sub isn't a boomer. Hardly Teddy Roosevelt Great White Fleet stuff. Leaving port with a tug along does not exactly instill fear.

phantommut said...

When we went to West Virginia on vacation to play golf, we met some very poor people in an absolutely gorgeous state...

...But all the people I met there were very real and very kind.


If you want a feel for WV in this century, check out Anthony Bourdain's Parts Unknown episode visiting the state. I had many problems with his politics but he was a gifted observer and writer. If you're interested in seeing how the ultimate flyover culture feels it's worth the watch.

walter said...

A lot of typing and jiving.
But Chuck! will vote for Joementia.
Conserving Cuckservatism.

Achilles said...

Greg the Class Traitor said...

Humperdink said...
It amuses me when I ask why people why they are voting for the walking cadaver. The name Trump highlights their response ..... as in every other word.

The response to that should be "so then, if DeSantis was running, would you vote for him?"

I expect their honest answer is "no", because it's all about policy and power, not about Trump. But it would be interesting to ask them.

The average leftist would call Desantis Hitler.

But the DC crowd would quiet down a lot and there wouldn't be any lawfair for 2 reasons:

1. Desantis proved he is part of the machine in 2017-18 when he helped Paul Ryan backstab Trump. He would just be taking over the spot Jeb left vacant so if he somehow did win the general it would just be Bush the 3rd.

2. Desantis would get about 60 million votes in the general and democrats wouldn't really have to cheat much to beat him.

Achilles said...

Rich said...

"There’s a Russian naval group positioned off the east coast of Florida right now."

Of course Russian ships want to go to the Caribbean, it's a lot safer for them there than the Black Sea. Putin wants to keep what's left of the Russian navy intact.

It is posts like this that make me think Rich is a moby trying to make democrats look stupid and evil.

Cappy said...

I vote Republican because I like to pounce.

RMc said...

But JD Vance believes, he sees
No wise man has the power to reason away
What seems to be
Is always better than nothing
Than nothing at all