I'm reading "Why Biden Should Not Debate Trump/The networks want their show, but to give the challenger equal status on a TV stage would be a dire normalization of his attempted coup" by David Frum (in The Atlantic).
The second half of the headline confirms my suspicion.
We're not supposed to read Biden's refusal to debate to mean that he lacks the mental capacity to debate. Frum and others will instruct us, repeatedly, in articles repeating the talking point.
An excerpt from Frum:
The Confederacy did not go away when Abraham Lincoln refused to concede the title of president to Jefferson Davis. That’s not why Lincoln consistently denied Davis that title. Lincoln understood how demoralizing it would be to Union-loyal Americans if he accepted the claim that Davis was a president rather than a rebel and an insurrectionist. Biden should understand how demoralizing it would be to democracy-loyal Americans if he accepted the claim that Trump is more than a January 6 defendant.
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78 comments:
Frum and others will instruct us, repeatedly, in articles repeating this talking point.
…short of a conclusion evidence is mounting that Ann has caught on…
" others will instruct us, repeatedly, in articles repeating this talking point."
Talking point is another term obliterated by leftist like Frum
'Talking Point' is now defined as spin, lies, disinformation.
"Gee, this is terrible for us, we need talking points to rebut the facts."
If Biden refuses, would it make sense for Trump to debate RFKjr?
Maybe with a third, empty podium on the stage?
Fools that they are, they’ll do it all over again.
Shit-grinning Crypt Kickers.
So now we're saving Democracy from a coup, and the coup is decided by a voting electorate?
Ah frum remember when he begged for the hostages that his choice made inevitable
This sort of implies that Frum and the other "union loyalists" will start an insurrection if Trump wins.
The left demand full submission.
You will accept the Husk- Puppet. or else.
My dear rajahm, just because Ann doesn't go rage-monkey like other bloggers doesn't mean she hasn't "caught on" you moron.
This was as predictable as the sun rising in the East. Anyone with half a brain predicted that this would happen.
The insistence of media elected to refuse to discuss Biden’s obvious cognitive issues is unpatriotic as what they accuse Trump and his followers of.
Running a against a Democrat in a election is an attempted coup. For the sake of democracy we need one party to rule us all, nine columnists doomed to help them.
Frum is a witch-columnist
"democracy-loyal Americans" LMFAO! The fucking chutzpa of the talking-point dependent democrat Party members today is beyond absurdity.
Democrats should prepare to be demoralized when they have to accept that Trump is the next president.
I don't really see why presidential "debates" are even held. They're not really debates, but are simply back and forth reiterations by the opponents of canned boasts about themselves and complaints about their adversary. They're just speaking to their respective audiences, and they simply repeat the rhetoric they have already spent months promulgating through campaign appearances and media advertising.
if he accepted the claim that Trump is more than a January 6 defendant.
You can see here Frum not-so-subtly laying the groundwork for Biden to go Jeff Davis if/when he loses in November.
Trump is obviously "more than a January 6 defendant." For one thing, he isn't even a January 6 defendant. But he's also likely to be our next president, at least at the moment.
The Confederacy did not come into existence because Lincoln found half the country beneath his notice. Rather it came into existence because, then as now, there were Americans who found equal justice under law too hard and who preferred the easy wealth that comes from disregarding the rights of others. (Selling people out to each other or to China - it's all one thing.) The lovers of slavery tried to form a "Confederacy of slave-owning states," apparently headed by Jefferson Davis. Not much is n=known about How Davis and his inner circle made decisions for the Confederacy but it was certainly not in consultation with the people living in Confederate states. Davis and his circle despised the Confederate people almost as much as they despised the Northerners and the slaves and excluded them from a real place in the halls of power. Lincoln fought this attempt to radically transform a part of America into a tyranny run on behalf of the wealthy, the slave-holders, and millions fought the tyranny with him. And we are still here.
Dear God, can anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together believe Frum’s drivel?
Who is this aimed at then? I shudder to think.
One more reason to vote for Trump: give the Frums our middle finger.
The Egregious Frum. Old Jerry Pournelle had a way with words, and I can never think of the guy any other way now.
1) Nobody gives a damn about David Frum anymore. This clown has burned his bridges to a whole bunch of people on the Right and the Left. He's been dishonst about his beliefs and motivations ever since he first rose to prominance in the 1990s as a "Conservative" who thought Rush Limbaugh and Pat Buchanan were just "too extreme". By 2008, he was refusing to support McCain because of Palin, and by 2012 he was voting for Obama. He's now a proud Liberal Democrat. But he's such a 2nd rater, only the Atlantic will publish him.
2) Frum the Dumb's only consistency in the last 30 years has been his warmongering Neo-Connery and love of Zionism. Remember the Axis of Evil?
3) The Democrats don't want Biden to debate because he will lose. That's it. Biden only got through the 2020 debates because the moderators were on his side. Trump had to debate a tag-team of Wallace-Biden. They not only slanted the questions, they jumped in to help Biden. But Trump will take any debate format this time, because Biden can't talk or defend his actions. He can't just sit back and call Trump a nazi this time, he'll have tod defend his record as POTUS - and he cant.
Biden should understand how demoralizing it would be to democracy-loyal Americans if he accepted the claim that Trump is more than a January 6 defendant.
Therefore, according to Frum, the half of the country backing Trump are "democracy dis-loyal Americans." Anyone willing to vote for Trump is nothing more than a J6 defendant. We are the deplorables. The lesser people. We are now...enemies.
Actually, we are just sick and tired of totalitarian liars like David Frum.
"democracy-loyal" = easily brainwashed. susceptible to believing media propaganda. vaccinated. wore masks on command.
Mike Pence could have been eviscerated by the Predator on Jan 6 and Biden was still going to be selected. Why do these morons insist that the VP is integral to the electoral counting?
In the arena of ideas, smart people that are informed on the topic of interest will always choose to engage in a debate with dumb, uninformed people.
We know which side of the Presidential slate wants a televised debate every single day, and which side will do anything to avoid having their guy on stage without a pre-written script on a teleprompter.
Frum is actively campaigning for Trump.
The next step in Frum's logic is that any Republican who does not agree with Liz Cheney is similarly lacking in legitimacy to participate in our sacred democracy. Congress too. The only way to save that sacred democracy is to have one party rule for an extended period of time by the Democratic Party.
"I'm rubber and you are glue" say the collusive conspirators of Crossfire Hurricane, and who have now attempted an 8-year cover up of their actions. It's a lot like playing a video game where you must run to cross a bridge as it falls. Don't stumble or it'll all be over.
Continued comparisons of Jan 6th to half of the States trying to leave the Union.
Frum is an unserious idiot. His pull quote on his own web page is "Those who seem to despise half of America will never be trusted to govern any of it." I wager that is easily as applicable to the Democrats as it is to the Republicans. Probably more so.
democracy-loyal Americans
More like democracy-averse americans...
Is Frum saying that primaries aren't part of the election process. This really does seem more actually insurrectionist than anything Trump did. They are actually saying that Biden has veto power over who is his opposition candidate and can refuse to accept the choice, right or wrong, of the opposition party?
This is actually dangerous rhetoric they are leaning into.
What happened on J6 is debatable. That it was tantamount to the Civil War is not.
Shorter Frum---we're going to do whatever it takes to inflict this senescent geezer on the nation again.
I also noticed. And it's a nice thing to see.
If Biden won’t debate Trump, it shows Biden’s weakness. If Biden debates Trump it amplifies Biden’s weakness. Trump won’t have a third term, people like Frum see J6 as an attempted coup, it wasn’t. Frum still doesn’t understand Trump supporters.
My prediction:
If Trump garners more electoral voters than Biden after November's election it will be the culmination of his illegitimate insurrection, according to David Frum, a respected Canadian columnist.
The simplest and clearest reason for Trump (not Biden) to evade a debate is that if Trump were to be confronted by Biden in any recorded statement, Trump might need to be given a Miranda warning. That is, to the extent that Biden might be regarded as a putative federal law enforcement officer, and to the extent that Trump is under multiple federal criminal indictments, it could easily be regarded as an extrajudicial contact in violation of Trump's rights.
This has happened, and recently.
In 2020, the Michigan Republican Party nominated extremist TrumpWing/insurrectionist/election conspiracist Matt DePerno to run for state Attorney General. The sitting AG, Dana Nessel, was approached for debates during the campaign. She declined any debate, citing the fact that DePerno's case, then under investigation, might come before her.
Nessel was right. Last August, DePerno was charged by a grand jury on four felony counts and is now awaiting trial. (A special counsel, assigned to avoid conflict with AG Nessel, was assigned for the grand jury proceeding and now trial.)
I know that if I were helping to prep Biden for a debate with Trump, I'd be digging into the criminal case files, looking for specific fact-issue questions that would be fatal to Trump's defense. I think I might additionally be planning on how to warn Trump, and the Special Counsel's office, and the assigned judges of what I intended to ask Trump on the record. Asking all of them for their input on a Miranda warning for Trump.
Frum seems insane.
I guess they've all gotten the message that comparing Trump to Hitler wasn't working. Now it's Confederacy topics. The other day someone compared Trump to John Wilkes Booth at the Lincoln assassination.
"Democracy loving Americans...."
Great God Almighty! He has no shame. I know this, but I continue to be shocked, appalled and taken aback by leftmedia corruption.
…short of a conclusion evidence is mounting that Ann has caught on…
@rehajm, I’ve been a member of the Althouse commentariat since well before Obama was elected. Don’t count on it. She’ll go right up to the edge, but then she’ll find some ridiculous excuse to vote for whomever the Dems put up. She cannot help herself.
I don’t think “democracy loyal Americans” means what he thinks it means.
The number of people in America who take seriously David Frum's views isn't enough fill up the old ballroom at the Michigan Union building. And that's in Ann Arbor. Even less in the rest of Michigan cities. And in Dearbornistan? I don't even want to think about their reaction.
Trump’s election victory in 2016 is about as “normalising” as it gets.
The “normalising”, if such a thing is happening, is the law faring of a former president. The flurry of legal action against one man might be unprecedented. The saying “there’s blood in the water” could be easily replaced with “there’s a Trump in the water”.
Mr. Frum should ponder the potential for armed conflict that goes with the Lincoln analogy. There were also other bits of unpleasantness that Mr. Lincoln did not initially have in mind.
Shorter Frum: Biden can’t debate because democracy.
Look, it doesn’t matter what Biden thinks. Trump has been chosen by his party and leads in the polls. The public sees him as a legitimate candidate for the office and you don’t get to override their judgement under the guise of “saving democracy”.
What you’re doing is fundamentally undemocratic.
Jefferson Davis never was nor ever claimed to be President of the United States.
I can’t speak for Ann, but in general Democrats, liberals do not catch on. It requires a recognition they’ve been wrong all their lives. Their identity is invested in being a good person which they equate with being a liberal. It means separating themselves from their friends, colleagues and getting used to the derision heaped on non liberals. They’ve laughed at Quayle, made fun of Pat Nixon, they’ve championed Saturday Night Live and John Stewart. To now watch any form of entertainment and to understand they’re no longer part of the cool kids is just too difficult. It’s difficult for conservatives. That’s why every time a liberal makes fun of Melania Trump for wearing this or that dress, we rush in and say she shouldn’t have worn that. Whenever a conservative says something liberals laugh at, we say he/she should have phrased it a different way. It’s psychologically wearying. It’s the reason so many conservatives don’t admit to being Republican, for supporting Trump.So no, liberals and Democrats won’t change.
When Trump has refused to debate any of the challengers in his own party, it takes a special kind of hypocrisy to insist that President Biden must debate him.
@Robert Cook: I don't really see why presidential "debates" are even held. They're not really debates, but are simply back and forth reiterations by the opponents of canned boasts about themselves and complaints about their adversary.
Yes and no. The lines are all calculated and canned. Ignore them. Still, the real personality often slips out and dooms a candidate. This includes grumpy Walter Mondale during good times, clammy fish Dukakis when asked about the death penalty if wife Kitty was raped and murdered, GHW Bush's tone-deaf dismissiveness, Bob Dole's paint-by-numbers attitude toward his "candidacy," Al Gore's many condescending sighs, Mitt Romney's stiffness, McCain's twitchy weirdness, and Hillary's excessive and creepy grinning.
The 2020 'debates' were not debates at all, rather, they were coordinated attacks on Trump. See moderator Chris Wallace, the son of leftist Mike Wallace, telling Trump to shut up.
"Jefferson Davis never was nor ever claimed to be President of the United States."
Yeah, that was odd.
No one is "insisting" that Slow Joe has to debate Trump. But if the guy is half as smart as he constantly brags he is, he would relish the chance to humiliate "dumb" Donald Trump.
The funny thing about this is that despite Lincoln, no one seriously denies that Jefferson Davis was the President of the Confederacy.
Original Mike said...
"Jefferson Davis never was nor ever claimed to be President of the United States."
Yeah, that was odd.
No; this is some weird confusion by commenters on this page.
Davis never claimed to be President of the United States. No one suggested that.
There is a significant historical point that Frum was rightly alluding to. As follows. Jefferson Davis was the declared/elected President of the Confederate States of America. The other secessionist state governments acknowledged him as such.
But Lincoln never did. And it was significant that Lincoln did not. As a result, Lincoln would not communicate with Davis from 1861-1865. Davis wrote letters that Lincoln would not acknowledge. Lincoln would not refer to Davis as a head of state, even a disputed one. There would be no diplomacy between the Union and the Confederacy under Lincoln's determination. And yes, all of that is significant and very rightly noted by David Frum. It's a beautifully written essay.
For those of us who have been reading this blog for years and claim to be Althouse-ologists, I can pretty safely say Meade will vote for Trump and Althouse will probably vote third party. I hope for the sake of us who are curious, she lets us know the day after election.
Trump is a showbiz guy amongst other things. He knows Biden won't debate him so he should take a page from Clint Eastwood and invite JFK jr and an empty chair and have a three way debate. I would pay money to see that.
Just tell Joe it's going to be a fistfight and hand him a mic when he arrives.
Stopped reading when it said "David Frum."
He is the Franklin Foer of the 2020s.
Nothing says DEMOCRACY like throwing your chief political rival in prison right before the election...
On one hand, they're telling us that multiple world leaders regularly call Joe Biden for direction, guidance on world affairs.
On the other hand, they're telling us that this mental giant cannot stand on stage to debate his political opponent whom he and his party are spending millions of dollars and hundreds of hours on, trying to put in jail before the election.
On one hand Joe is so powerful, not only is he overseeing massive growth in the US economy, but the safest, cleanest cities in recent memory, coupled with an improvement on our border situation.
On the other hand, none of that is true, the country is falling apart, the world is in chaos, with multiple World War triggers going on at once, and the last thing they want is for Joe to have to stand on stage looking incompetent next to Donald Trump.
Does Frum imagine that he is a "democracy-loyal American" when he compares a legitimate opposition presidential candidate to Jefferson Davis?
Sorry, Frum, but this is what democracy looks like.
Jefferson Davis was President of the Confederate States of America.
Ever think about the meaning of the word "state"? Especially as it was used in the 18th century? And is still used today "Head of State" for example, Golpe del Estado for another. Statecraft for still another. Ever think about why it is not the "United Provinces of America"?
It has been diluted down to where some countries, Mexico and Brazil call their provinces "states", although they are not.
But it still means an independent, sovereign, nation. Like France or Germany within the EU.
John Henry
PEDJT should say he does not care about the debate and then should continue doing his mega rallies 2-3 times a week as he does.
I don't think he does care much about the debate. They really are pretty meaningless and pretty rigged. I think more people see his rallies, in person and on Rumble and YouTube than see the debates.
But he should hammer home the idea that Brandon is scared to debate him, even in a rigged setting.
John Henry
@9:21 Robert Cook isn't always wrong. Presidential 'debates' are usually just as he describes them. Although, this round might be more informative than usual as Biden's handlers might not be able to juice him up enough to handle any unscripted moments that occur. I'd watch just for the prospect of the train wreck.
What happened on J6 is debatable. That it was tantamount to the Civil War is not.
===========
but Pelosi and Pence did perform a Sherman march on Atlanta = '/Trump/J6 insurrectionists'
If I had to pick a spot, I would say that it was at the debates that Trump threw away his re-election and gave the presidency to Biden by being an obnoxious insult machine. That is reason enough for Biden to give to refuse to be on the same stage as Trump - and to say that is why. And let Trump rant and rave and have his tantrum.
But if they were to debate, Biden could drool and fall asleep and generally just be the idiot he is, and Trump would still find a way to alienate votes by just being Trump.
Cubanbob: "Trump is a showbiz guy amongst other things. He knows Biden won't debate him so he should take a page from Clint Eastwood and invite JFK jr and an empty chair and have a three way debate. I would pay money to see that."
It has been suggested a live televised network debate between Trump and RFKjr with questioners Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan, Greg Gutfeld and, perhaps, Megyn Kelly, would break all debate audience attendance records.
Most importantly, we might actually hear the first question, in history, asked from an actual republican base voter perspective.
1. "No doubt exists about what Trump did, or why, or what his actions meant. Trump lost an election, then incited a violent mob to attack the Capitol. He hoped that the insurrectionists would terrorize, kidnap, or even kill his own vice president in order to stop the ceremony to formalize the victory of Biden and his vice president, Kamala Harris."
2. "Biden prefers to keep the temperature of politics low if he can."
The question I have is whether or not Frum believes his own BS.
Blogger Mark said...
If I had to pick a spot, I would say that it was at the debates that Trump threw away his re-election and gave the presidency to Biden...
C'mon Man,, it was STOLEN. Trump WON,,
The 2020 election had far too many irregularities and anomalies to be considered "free and fair". I see it as a de facto coup. Mail in ballots have always been ripe for fraud. Make them universal and allow ballot harvesting it will be a certainty.
Both Trump and Biden elected to deny equal status to their challengers. Biden has already won a victory by getting Trump to abandon his effort to set terms for debates. No reason for Biden to agree to debates before the Conventions. Then both candidates will have an eye on polling. Trump's jibes about dementia and performance enhancing drugs? He did the same thing in 2020.
VA Lawyer Mark: "But if they were to debate, Biden could drool and fall asleep and generally just be the idiot he is, and Trump would still find a way to alienate votes by just being Trump."
Just think, VA Lawyer Mark's preferred candidate, DeSantis, in Iowa, spent $200+ Million dollars, months and months in the state campaigning in every county, paid Bob Vander Plaats non-profit $90k+ to keep him on board, and had the endorsement of the now quite unpopular Total GOPe-er "republican" governor...and he still couldn't take a single county.
And yet "Trump" was still "just being Trump".
Like the DeSantis online "influencers" that helped incredibly in tanking the DeSantis campaign (DeSantis should sue them for political malpractice), VA Lawyer Mark remains butt hurt and non-recoverable.
Hey, if DeSantis were to sue his own incompetent crew of now defunct "online influencers", perhaps VA Lawyer Mark could step up with some pro bono defense of those buffoons!
Seems like it would be the right thing to do.
Howard said...
Frum is actively campaigning for Trump.
Wouldn't that be a turn!
Scene: it's January 2025. Trump won the election and has been sworn in as President of the United States. And Time Magazine runs a hagiographic piece by - I don't know, maybe Sarah Huckabee Sanders? explaining how a heroic, shadowy cabal of media executives, journalists, activists, and government officials pulled out all the stops to "fortify the election" and ensure this result. They couldn't get rid of Biden any other way (without leaving Harris holding the reins, which nobody wants), and they recognized the risks of four more years of the addled, belligerent midwit, so... Trump!
Again, I'm not holding my breath, but wouldn't that be fun?
"democracy-loyal Americans"
What is that? To a citizen that sounds dirty and ugly. I am not loyal, I am a free man who lives under the charter of a limited federal government, under an adversarial relationship. Under my State I have different freedoms, and if I don't like what my State does, I will go to hell or Texas. Or Florida, or Idaho.
I do not know why we hold these "debates" anymore. These shows are merely opportunities for the opponents to square off with one another, and try to make the other guy look bad.
I would like a "real" debate. Pick a topic, and argue a position. Allow for timed rebuttal.
There are plenty of opportunities for the candidates to showcase their showmanship outside of these staged exchanges.
I am more of a reader than a watcher, so I would prefer position statements on major issues, rather than video argument.
That's "Front Page Frankie" Foer to you guys...
"democracy-loyal Americans"
Josephbleau: "What is that? To a citizen that sounds dirty and ugly."
But to a New Soviet Democratical, it's practically perfect.
I am proud to say I am not a democracy loving American. I love the American nation, a Republic, where a 50%+1 vote cannot ride roughshod over the rights of the smaller minority.
Franklin's answer was “A republic, if you can keep it.”, not mob rule, which is what the founders thought of democracies.
Frum & company inflicted a doddering fool on the country once.
There's no reason to let them do it again.
Biden is not going to debate the man he's been trying to put in prison for the past 18 months.
Get real.
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