That's the top-rated comment on "What Can Americans Agree on? Wolves" (NYT). That's a free access link. The article is by Erica Berry, author of "Wolfish: Wolf, Self, and the Stories We Tell About Fear."
January 30, 2024
"There is no threat to humans from wolves. I live in northern Minnesota wolf country, and wolves avoid people like the plague."
"I've come across them when walking in the woods and they always run away. The two most dangerous animals for me are very large and very small: a bull moose during rut, and deer ticks which spread Lyme's disease. Deer are more dangerous because of car accidents. When Wisconsin reintroduced wolves, car-deer impacts went down. I'm a retired farmer, and farming is a high-risk business. You can't eliminate all risk from it. As for wolf attacks on dogs, the problem is small ankle-biter dogs who don't know when to back off. I had huskies, and they never received any attacks from wolves. But then, huskies speak fluent wolftail and know when to submit."
That's the top-rated comment on "What Can Americans Agree on? Wolves" (NYT). That's a free access link. The article is by Erica Berry, author of "Wolfish: Wolf, Self, and the Stories We Tell About Fear."
That's the top-rated comment on "What Can Americans Agree on? Wolves" (NYT). That's a free access link. The article is by Erica Berry, author of "Wolfish: Wolf, Self, and the Stories We Tell About Fear."
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The numbers of wolves in the wild in the U.S. is a small fraction of what it once was. This is the true source of the ex-farmer's lack of fear. Additionally, as an ex-farmer, he no longer has livestock and no need to worry about increasing the wolf population.
They are a very real threat to cattle. This matters to many people. Reintroduce them, but don't give them special protected status. Ranchers should be allowed to protect their herds. Human needs should be superior to some magical back to nature crap. Nature doesn't give a shit about anything but survival. Humans are a part of that.
"When Wisconsin reintroduced wolves, car-deer impacts went down."
Wolves are making a dent in the deer population? Very hard to believe.
Wolves are the new pit bull? They aren’t dangerous until they are.
Ok. A predator who won’t bite people. Sure. Now do bears and mountain lions oh wise farmer of northern Minnesota. I bet you don’t have livestock either
So little “ankle biter” dogs are just asking for it. They deserve to be eaten. Deer are deadly, kill them all. This guy is a real treasure.
Oh, Hell yes! Get him some timber rattlers too! Those are loads of fun, you can juggle them. Maybe some Siberian tigers. They almost never eat anybody important.
I think a western rancher in most states can shoot a wolf he finds attacking his livestock. As I understand it in California the rancher is forbidden from protecting his stock and is supposed to just let the wolves have their way.
"wolves avoid people like the plague."
So some walk around the woods in ridiculous face masks?
Once the wolf population recovers, the old conflict with ranchers and farmers will arise once more. Losing a mature heifer to predation is a sizable loss for these people and they are justified in protecting their livelihood. Of course the disconnected laptop class is completely fine with this.
Save teh Wolves! Feed ‘em teh Left!
"Clap for the wolfman"
I miss Wolfman Jack
John Henry
A Coase Theorem problem, except:
1.) Instead of a "social cost," the externality is a private cost imposed by a "social" decision, and
2.) This time the cattle are the victims.
Of Coase and Cattle: Dispute Resolution Among Neighbors in Shasta County
This article reports the results of an investigation into how rural landowners in Shasta County, California, resolve disputes arising from trespass by livestock. The results provide an empirical perspective on one of the most celebrated hypothetical cases in the law-and-economics literature. In his landmark article, "The Problem of Social Cost," economist Ronald Coase invoked as his fundamental example a conflict between two neighbors- a rancher running cattle and a farmer raising crops. Coase used the Parable of the Farmer and the Rancher to illustrate what has come to be known as the Coase Theorem. This unintuitive proposition asserts, in its strongest form, that when transaction costs are zero, a change in the rule of liability will have no effect on the allocation of resources. For example, the Theorem predicts that as long as its admittedly heroic assumptions are met, the imposition of liability for cattle trespass would not cause ranchers to reduce the size of their herds, erect more fencing, or keep closer watch on their livestock. The Theorem has become the most fruitful, yet most controversial, proposition in law-and-economics. Coase himself was fully aware that obtaining information, negotiating agreements, and litigating disputes are all potentially costly, and that thus his Parable might not portray accurately how rural landowners would respond to a change in trespass law. Some law-and-economics scholars, however, assume that transaction costs are indeed often trivial when only two parties are in conflict. Therefore, these scholars might assume that Coase's Parable faithfully depicts how rural landowners resolve cattle-trespass disputes.
It is interesting that the old mythical fear of "throwing babies off the sled" in order to keep the wolves occupied, and save others (alone in the dark), goes back to Russia and perhaps the Balkan lands. Smart people will say there is no documented case of a wolf killing and eating a human being in North America.
Did the Russian story start or spread after the numbers of bears and big cats had been substantially reduced? I would think these animals are always scary as hell, especially if they exist in significant numbers, and I would think they would eat babies. There is some interest in re-introducing a sub-species of grizzly in Southern Cal; of course such an animal is on the state flag.
I actually enjoy the cynical humor of politicians behind closed doors; now I guess it is condemned as a kind of celebration of callousness, particularly to people who are more or less used to being victims. Hand-written notes, Prime Minister Lloyd George to First Lord of the Admiralty (Secretary of the Navy) Churchill. It's budget time, and cuts need to be made someplace in order to proudly announce new spending someplace else. "Have you no more babies to throw off the sled"? "I've thrown off every possible baby."
I've only had one sighting from a few hundred yards. I know of a story of my fishing guide solo camping in Glacier and a pack came in to his campfire, surrounding him. They didn't run away. Scary...
Ranchers should be allowed to protect their herds.
Trouble with this is for some ranchers 'protecting their herds' means hunting all the wolves where their cattle may range. In the 90s the compensation for wolf kills kind of worked...with some ranchers, for a while...
The problem with the logic is we know that animals will change their behaviors towards humans over time. Bears are not instinctively attracted to garbage cans. All you need is for a wolf pack to get desperate enough and kill and eat a human, and then suddenly humans are a legitimate food source. There's a reason they have to kill maneater lions and bears that are too comfortable with humans.
The question is whether the risks to humans, their animals, and their property are offset by the rewards of reintroducing wolves to various regions. "Wolves aren't dangerous" is not a real argument.
Nothing happened to me the one or two times I stumbled across a (lone?) wolf. Ergo, wolves pose no threat to anybody.
Logical? No.
Egotistical? Yes.
But Jack London's "To Build a Fire" says otherwise!
There's a really interesting study about the massive ecosystem influence wolves had in Yellowstone after being reintroduced.
When the wolves get hungry enough humans will be on the menu.
Nature is indifferent to your concerns.
Fatal attacks are rare, but can be dramatic:
“On 12/23, an elderly trapper left his camp to "mush down" to the village to pick up his mail. Later in the day, two miles from the settlement, two First Nations men discovered his bones and blood in the snow amidst torn pieces of harness. The two men took their own dog teams and extra ammunition out in pursuit of the same wolves but did not return. The following day, two miles from the village beyond the scene of the first fatal attack, a search party discovered the rifles and bones of the two First Nations men amidst bits of clothing and empty shells. Scattered in a circle about the scene were the carcasses of 16 wolves.”
This is the situation in Colorado re: wildlife/wolf regulation:
https://www.coloradopolitics.com/opinion/call-to-carpet-cronies-behind-curtain-of-polis-contorted-cpw-gabel/article_16db5bfa-bca6-11ee-9ef9-e3380ac23f47.html
Colorado farmers and ranchers don't stand a chance to successfully argue their position in the face of such bias against. Oh, and rural Colorado is governed by the urban Denver/Front Range elite, who don't give a flying you-know-what about Colorado's rural economy.
An interesting book that describes and explains the habituation of predators to human activity is "The Beast In The Garden." Although the author writes of mountain lions, it pertains as well to wolves.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/103071.The_Beast_in_the_Garden
Such trash. Stupid, gullible people. But here we go.
Wolves will kill large dogs, including mastiffs. They killed a farm dog and a small pet dog in Jackson County, Colorado. Fact finding is as simple as Google.
Original Mike said...
"When Wisconsin reintroduced wolves, car-deer impacts went down."
And when they run out of deer- which people hunt for food- what do they hunt next?
Jupiter said...
Oh, Hell yes! Get him some timber rattlers too!
The idiots in NY government are doing that. Maybe not timber rattlers, but rattlesnakes. Their ecological niche is easily taken by non-poisonous snakes.
As an amateur astronomer who frequently spends all night up and alone in remote northern Wisconsin locations, I've actually started to be a bit concerned about this. Last summer, quite close to one of my observing sites, there was a freshly dismembered deer carcass and a paw print in the mud that looked like a mountain lion.
As for wolf attacks on dogs, the problem is small ankle-biter dogs who don't know when to back off.
I lived outside Anchorage, AK from 2007 to 2015. During that time, there was a pack on the east side of the Fort Richardson reservation.
They took some of those small ankle biter dogs. Off leashes. As their owners were walking them.
One particularly notable instance: Two women were hiking with their chocolate Lab up Arctic Valley (NE side of Anchorage.) and were set upon by a pack of wolves intent on taking the dog. The self-defense the women had was a can of bear spray. Took them forty five minutes to get back to their car. The dog needed 142 stitches.
(Whenever I hiked outside the neighborhood, I carried a Ruger Redhawk .44.)
For humans, the deadliest animal is a wolf, lion, or shark. It's the mosquito. The mosquito sickens or kills hundreds of thousands to even millions of humans every year.
My opinions are so important, you must treat them as facts!
Coyotes don't attack people either, until they did.
Just cause here in Texas a Coyote has never attacked me DOES NOT mean they have not attacked anyone else... or their livestock... or their pets...
And Wolves are 10x worse than Coyotes.
it ALL makes purrfext sense!!
when there were no wolves.. No one was ever attacked by wolves..
in the few years that we've had Some wolves.. no major attacks..
THEREFORE, WHEN we have packs of hungry wolves running around.. It STILL won't be a problem,
because?
One or two wolves per county (away up north), is a LOT different from wolves all over the place.
Will they get 'all over the place'? what's to stop them? There are NO LIMITS on wolves currently.
ps (and not at all related) i saw a red fox here in town (west union iowa) yesterday..
Never saw one in town before. I guess ONE GOOD THING about wolves, they'll eliminate the foxes
Paddy O said...There's a really interesting study about the massive ecosystem influence wolves had in Yellowstone after being reintroduced.
You're probably thinking of this video on the Reintroduction of wolves at Yellowstone
"Of course the disconnected laptop class is completely fine with this."
I wonder if that attitude would change if their internet access and Doordash deliveries were threatened.
Self-defense. Next question.
Me? I’m not going to risk it. This is one place where an AR-15 in 5.56/.223 is the perfect gun. Except, of course, CO has idiotic mag size limits. If Eugene Stoner had wanted them to have 10-15 round magazines, he would have invented them that way.
Note that while MN might have some cattle ranching, it isn’t significant, in comparison with that of MT, which has a significant one. And the ranchers there know that the wolves we have, imported from Canada, do take livestock. So why not ask MT ranchers, instead of whomever they talked to in MN?
The causal link between wolf-introduction and number of deer-car accidents cannot be established yet -- the number of deer-car accidents varies each year based on weather, amongst other things.
Unfortunately, in CO, the wolves aren't going to eat the dumb city dwellers that support the reintroduction of wolves here first. The ranchers will be hardest hit.
It will take time, but I think the wolves will eventually find their way into the open spaces near suburban housing near the front range. We already have a lot of coyotes, bobcats, occasional bears and mountain lions. The coyotes kill a lot of pets. The more the merrier for the dumb people.
From what I understand, the major problem with wolves is that they kill livestock, not people.
@Gospace - be more careful with your reading. The quote about deer/car collisions is a quote from the original article. That's. Why. I. Put. It. In. Quotes.
My comment was to doubt its accuracy. I'll repeat it: Wolves are making a dent in the deer population? Very hard to believe.
Original Mike said:
As an amateur astronomer who frequently spends all night up and alone in remote northern Wisconsin locations, I've actually started to be a bit concerned about this. Last summer, quite close to one of my observing sites, there was a freshly dismembered deer carcass and a paw print in the mud that looked like a mountain lion.
1/30/24, 11:33 AM
Hey Mike, are you part of the astronomers group at Wyalusing State Park? If so, many thanks for evenings my grandson got to spend star gazing up there.
And yes, mountain lions are perfectly happy to hunt even cattle and humans solo. And wolves can do it in a group. Not got for WI dairy when the beasts start crossing the big river.
“One particularly notable instance: Two women were hiking with their chocolate Lab up Arctic Valley (NE side of Anchorage.) and were set upon by a pack of wolves intent on taking the dog. The self-defense the women had was a can of bear spray. Took them forty five minutes to get back to their car. The dog needed 142 stitches.”
“(Whenever I hiked outside the neighborhood, I carried a Ruger Redhawk .44.)”
Wolves where we live in MT do exist, just not, yet, in as large numbers as further east of us. We have them on the south ridge, and brown bear on the north ridge, of the river valley that runs through our county. Black bears are very common in the valley where the people live, and Mtn Lions somewhat. I carry a 10 mm G20. I go with it, because of the 15 round magazines, and it was easier (and much cheaper) to build up to the recoil. My worry about wolves is that the Canadian wolves that were “reintroduced” run in bigger packs than the indigenous ones killed off a century ago. The 15 round magazines are a plus there. When the threat is mostly wolves and mtn lions, I carry (JHP) SD ammo, to maximize tissue damage. For bears, I carry (often hard cast) Bear Loads for penetration. And when I walk the ankle biter, down in the valley, I will typically alternate rounds in the loaded magazine. Each to their own.
@Laughing Fox: I wish I could say yes, but I am not. I've been curious about the observatory at Wyalusing, but have not investigated it.
At my primary Northern Wisconsin observing site, twice I've had coyotes take up howling in the woods directly adjacent to me. I'd guess a couple of hundred feet away.
@ Left Bank of the Charles...
“On 12/23, an elderly trapper left his camp to "mush down" to the village to pick up his mail. Later in the day, two miles from the settlement, two First Nations men discovered his bones and blood in the snow amidst torn pieces of harness. The two men took their own dog teams and extra ammunition out in pursuit of the same wolves but did not return. The following day, two miles from the village beyond the scene of the first fatal attack, a search party discovered the rifles and bones of the two First Nations men amidst bits of clothing and empty shells. Scattered in a circle about the scene were the carcasses of 16 wolves.”
This wouldn't have happened if they had ARs w/ 30 round mags!
@ Left Bank of the Charles...
“On 12/23, an elderly trapper left his camp to "mush down" to the village to pick up his mail. Later in the day, two miles from the settlement, two First Nations men discovered his bones and blood in the snow amidst torn pieces of harness. The two men took their own dog teams and extra ammunition out in pursuit of the same wolves but did not return. The following day, two miles from the village beyond the scene of the first fatal attack, a search party discovered the rifles and bones of the two First Nations men amidst bits of clothing and empty shells. Scattered in a circle about the scene were the carcasses of 16 wolves.”
This wouldn't have happened if they had ARs with 30 round mags.
Tim, thanks! That's most likely what I was thinking about. Been a few years since I saw it and didn't remember where I'd heard about that.
A few severe winters in a row are the main culprit for lower deer populations. That's been the case in the past and it's still the case. To blame this on wolves is not only lazy but also just plain wrong. Wolves kill the weak and young and only the number that are needed. The percentage they take is only a fraction of what dies from severe winters. To manage a native predator because hunters want more to shoot at is a sad take from animal rights activists. I guarantee that after a few mild winters this "problem" goes away. Minnesota is just a small southern tip of a massive wolf range in the Canadian boreal forest. They are far from threatened or endangered.
Google Wolf attack Saskatchewan or find the article "Death by Wolves" for a grim, detailed account of the death of Kenton Carnegie in 2005 near Points North airfield. Also, I believe the young woman hiking in a provincial park in Canada was killed by two wolf/coyote hybrids. Wolves are not a benign social good for those living near them.
Original Mike said...
"As an amateur astronomer who frequently spends all night up and alone in remote northern Wisconsin locations, I've actually started to be a bit concerned about this. Last summer, quite close to one of my observing sites, there was a freshly dismembered deer carcass and a paw print in the mud that looked like a mountain lion."
They're referred to as Pumas over here in Illinois. The Illinois DNR like to discount any sightings of Pumas in Illinois. Until a couple of years ago about 30 miles south of Aurora somebody claimed to have seen a Puma in their yard. The catch was they had a picture to prove it.
I saw a (probably hybrid) emotional support wolf in the Dawsonville Walmart.
Its owner was wearing a hooded (with the hood on) giant pink fuzzy onesie that didn't reach her knees, and flip-flops.
Both were given a great deal of latitude. I noticed she bought pink marshmallows.
They hand out free samples of moonshine at the City Hall in Dawsonville. Part of the building is a NASCAR museum, which is surprisingly interesting, even for a non-car person like me.
And we have one of the largest nudist colonies in the South.
This is why I have no desire to travel: there are universes upon universes in your own back yard. James Dickey wrote his best poems around here.
Wolves reduce car-deer impacts by keeping deer scared and hiding in brush and woods, and not eating along the open shoulders of roads. The last wolf I saw in person was in Yellowstone, a member of that highly publicized reintroduced pack. It was sitting 10 feet off a road, watching early morning traffic and warming himself in the sun. Not a deer or elk was anywhere to be seen that morning, as I recall.
The wolves I have seen have all freaked out and ran away when they spotted me. They know humans are extremely dangerous. But in Minnesota, wolves were never wiped out. Reintroduced wolves might not have the pack memory to keep a healthy distance from humans.
There is a great deal of space between “farming is high risk” and “you can’t eliminate ALL risk” and I’m pretty sure eliminating wolves as a threat to your livestock falls right there in that huge freaking gaping hole, Mr. “Retired Farmer.”
-Rafe
I can't say how dangerous they are, and I don't want to be the guinea pig in that experiment.
I can say there is a primal shiver that went up my spine when I heard them howl in a snow laden forest.
Yup. The wolves "always" run away. Until they don't. You could ask Kenton Joel Carnegie or Candice Berner, except that wolves ate them. And there have numerous attacks where the human survived through good sheer good luck, like the unnamed female student in the state of Washington in 2018 who was surrounded by a wolf pack but escaped by climbing a tree and contacting the local Sheriff's office using a satellite phone. A helicopter chased the pack away and rescued her. About 20-25 years ago I took my wife with me on a business trip to Alaska, and one night on TV a news reporter was interviewing three women who had been out jogging together and found themselves surrounded by a wolf pack, presumably with dinner on their minds. Something happened that startled the wolves away, but the women were still very shaken (one was crying) when they were interviewed.
@Bruce Hayden, the Glock 20 is highly recommended by Alaskans, and the conventional wisdom says to have an FMJ or hardcast lead round in the chamber for bear, then alternate hollow point (best for wolves) and FMJ or hardcase (best for bears) for the rest of the magazine. The recommendation is to carry a second magazine of all hollow points, "because if you are still alive to change magazines you must be fighting a wolf pack, not a bear." I'd be sure to carry a second magazine in your shoes, because it's not at all hard to find wolf packs of twelve wolves or more captured on YouTube videos. You probably know all that, but just in case...
I almost forgot to mention that wolves are members of the canine family, and therefore very susceptible to rabies. People have been bitten by rabid wolves; it's a risk same as rabid foxes, rabid coyotes, and rabid dogs.
"Trouble with this is for some ranchers 'protecting their herds' means hunting all the wolves where their cattle may range."
I am entirely fine with this approach. I am confident that the ranchers, if left to their own devices, can manage the threat. It's pretty much what I had in mind when I made the comment. Even better would be not reintroducing them in the first place... .
@Rusty - I believe there have been pictures in Wisconsin, too, though I don't have a link for one.
I live in the northern woods of Wisconsin. Last week wolves killed a deer in my yard, they left the carcass remains on the frozen lake my house overlooks. I’ve heard them howling at night, I like the sound. I’ve only seen one once while riding my fat bike last winter. It was walking across a frozen marsh. It gave me some stink eye for a bit, then went on its way. From the look he gave me, I think if hungry enough human would be on the menu. I haven’t noticed an impact on the deer herd here, despite the carcass on my lake, I’m still dodging deer on my drive to the gym in the morning.
Old and slow said...
"Trouble with this is for some ranchers 'protecting their herds' means hunting all the wolves where their cattle may range."
I am entirely fine with this approach. I am confident that the ranchers, if left to their own devices, can manage the threat. It's pretty much what I had in mind when I made the comment. Even better would be not reintroducing them in the first place... .
Yes, of course. I've heard the rancher entitlement argument for my whole life. Trouble with it is more people give a damn about usage of public lands and the environment and ecosystems now. It isn't 1876 anymore and there are disparate interests...
Darkisland said...
"Clap for the wolfman"
I miss Wolfman Jack
John Henry
1/30/24, 10:42 AM
I miss The Guess Who.
"There is no threat to humans from wolves..."
Absolutely false, falsus in unum, falsus in omnibus.
I have seen one wolf, a female grey in Lake Louise Alberta. She was lying by a river stretched out in the sun, about 10 feet long including legs. I was on the hillside above, walking away fast. Great looking animal, full of power.
“The recommendation is to carry a second magazine of all hollow points, "because if you are still alive to change magazines you must be fighting a wolf pack, not a bear." I'd be sure to carry a second magazine in your shoes, because it's not at all hard to find wolf packs of twelve wolves or more captured on YouTube videos. You probably know all that, but just in case...”
Not an issue, because I do carry an extra magazine, or two. Just not in my shoes. Part of my point was that facing a wolf pack with a 15 round G20 is maybe preferable to doing so with a (powerful) 5-6 round revolver. Plus, you really don’t need the power of a .44 (mag?) round with wolves, just as you usually don’t with humans.
For humans, the deadliest animal is a wolf, lion, or shark. It's the mosquito.
Well.... In the interest of science, maybe you should try slapping at a wolf, when he bites.
"It gave me some stink eye for a bit, then went on its way. From the look he gave me, I think if hungry enough human would be on the menu"
I had large coyotes do this to me a couple times in suburban LA county. Very bold. Once it circled around me while I was sitting in an open space adjacent to a large county park. Just stared and circled. That one definitely was just curious but also unafraid. Another time not far away I met one while walking on a sidewalk, usually they trot away. This one walked toward me with those sizing me up predator eyes. I waved my arms and yelled them it trotted away, but those eyes made me realize a wild canine would do what it needs to do.
Never met a wolf except in a zoo, but can imagine their eyes being that much more fierce because they could pull it off more easily
Rafe,
I still haven't decided if I think this guy is just a bad speller and meant to type "Retarded Farmer", or if instead he is a farmer in exactly the same way that He Who Must Not Be Mentioned is a "lifelong Republican".
Paddy O,
Maybe it is our civic duty to put a little more fear of humans into our local coyote populations. If your encounter is simply hearing or sighting them over there, no biggie; but if they come right up to you they ought to be encouraged not to do that again.
Rafe,
I still haven't decided if I think this guy is just a bad speller and meant to type "Retarded Farmer", or if instead he is a farmer in exactly the same way that He Who Must Not Be Mentioned is a "lifelong Republican".
Plus, you really don’t need the power of a .44 (mag?) round with wolves, just as you usually don’t with humans.
@Bruce Hayden, I don’t know how you get into wolf country without being deep into bear country. And if charged by a large bear —black, brown, grizzly, or polar — I’d be happier with a .44 mag than extra rounds of 10 mm I’m not going to get off before the damned thing kills me. But right now the discussion is moot — to my knowledge there are no wolves in Virginia, but there are large black bears and a few years ago one of them came up on my deck to raid my bird feeders. Too close for comfort! Since then I bring the feeders in at dusk.
What about rabies?
It seems academic. In rural areas, wolves will be shot when the shooter feels that it’s necessary. No one will be asked or, likely, told. I’ve seen it done with foxes, coyotes, and mountain lions. No wolves locally but if there were, I imagine the same outcome.
The point is; The minute you leave your front door you're prey for something.
Cartel coyotes kill.
I had a friend at work who was of Finnish extraction and grew up in the Iron Range. He told the story about how many generations back in the old country, he had a many-times great uncle who was eaten by wolves. They’re not just friendly would-be doggies.
Last night I heard our local Gray Foxes calling from the meadow behind my house. Tiny, high pitched barks. We do things big here in Texas, but we also accept size limitations in close-built suburban ecosystems when necessary. The foxes avoid the coyotes, who are very urban adapted.
The wolves of Paris and The Wolf of Soissons. Modern wolves are, um, kitties.
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