This is a "café" post, so write about whatever you want in the comments.
২৬ সেপ্টেম্বর, ২০২৩
Sandhill cranes — at 2:34 p.m.
This is a "café" post, so write about whatever you want in the comments.
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মন্তব্যগুলি পোস্ট করুন (Atom)
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৬৭টি মন্তব্য:
mmmm! ribeye of the sky!!
Had a beer with a friend of mine today. He's a big believer in man-caused climate change. He's drunken the climate hoaxer's Kool-aide. He's afraid of climate change, "What if [I'm] wrong" about the risks of climate change? He didn't specify what the climate crisis is, just some nebulous catastrophic change.
He and his significant other have a house on Maui, way far away from the fire. Life is normal for them, except for a couple weeks right after the fire, where some things were in short supply. The biggest effect is the hit on the tourist economy. Instead of 9,000 arrivals a day, it's now only 1,800.
Meade and Ann need to drive out to NE in March and see millions of them near Kearney and the Pro Forma Monument over I-80.
It is prehistoric.
Beautiful. Thanks.
Speaking of "lying and cheating" (Althouse 9/24/23):
https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-letitia-james-fraud-lawsuit-1569245a9284427117b8d3ba5da74249
The sounds they make are so bizarre.
I'll see those things on Campus now and again, and I'm always wondering if they're about to attack me. Those bills could do damage, as well as the kicking feet.
Then I wonder if they're tasty.
The Ukrainian Nazi scandal would be fed into the memory hole if the memory hole was any longer needed. The populace is so distracted by trivial nonsense that this is no more than another indication--in highly amusing and telling form--that there are no fact checkers on certain claims and causes.
Turdeau was his usual unctuous self, and The Five had a field day with it this afternoon.
Wired from china directly to Joe's Delaware home. $250,000.
That's Rich!
One of my current reads is Catherine the Great, by Massie. This is one of the better ones of his that I've read, including his bio of Peter the Great.
I just read something that struck me as so contemporary (and it isn't the only one) that I have to share.
In two instances, high officials are accused of various crimes--bribery, treason, bad taste--and arrested, despite lack of any actual evidence, with the impeccable logic that once they are arrested more accusers will come forward with proof of those or other crimes.
Politics is always and everywhere a dirty game.
Serious civil litigation result against Trump in NY. Receiver appointed. Corp and LLCs dissolved. $250m fine. Maybe all properties to be sold. Taxable event. Seems very, very harsh.
Mated cranes out for an evening stroll. Well, if one of them were to trip, nature would likely have a harsh judgment as to its fitness. They and we have design limits as much as we may pray "just a little more time."
“Well, who ya gonna believe, me or your own eyes?”
Justice Arthur F. Engoron
Small programming note. I used to access the comments by clicking on the link to, for example, "8 comments". Now that link does nothing, and I access comments by clicking on either the headline, or the "More" link. Not a big deal, but fyi.
Pre Biden USA had what 12 million illegals in the country. Latest I've heard Biden's count is 7 million plus getaways. Close to %10 of this country is illegal aliens.
Teddy Kennedy and Joe Biden.
Looting reported at Foot Locker store in Center City Philadelphia
"PHILADELPHIA (WPVI) -- Philadelphia police officers have descended on Center City Tuesday night following a looting incident at a Foot Locker store.
It happened on the 1500 block of Chestnut Street just after 8 p.m.
Video obtained by Action News shows people running out of the store with items.
It's still unclear if any arrests have been made at this time.
Stay with Action News as we continue to follow this developing story."
I had visitors today. I haven’t seen this fella in about 35yrs. I recognized him immediately and his wife laughed so much. He was going to give me 10guesses, she said. Well, he hasn’t changed at all, I replied.
I invited them in- begging them to excuse my messy house. It’s hard to have energy to keep house when you’re the hired man(sorta). We had a great visit- he’s a dr and his wife is a rabbi!!! We reminisced and caught up and had a nice visit. They buy Organic Valley milk so I introduced them to some of my milkers.
Life blesses us.
Could we please just shoot anyone who writes or speaks the phrase “X has broken their silence about Y”?
Ampersand said...
I used to access the comments by clicking on the link to, for example, "8 comments"
still works for me
I like cranes. There's about them that reminds me of wild places. You know winter is coming when you hear their clacking call in the fall and that spring is near when you hear them in March.
Posting on X might very well be an act of civil disobedience.
Word on the street has the European Speech Police and the Biden administration going after X for… who knows what.
Kudos to Meade Lawrence for showing some chutzpah.
Wikipedia: “The sandhill crane (Antigone canadensis) is a species of large crane of North America and extreme northeastern Siberia.”
I stopped reading right there… I’m not falling for Putin puppet birds of propaganda.
Shame on you Althouse. 🇺🇦
The New Soviet democraticals really are going to run with "govt assessed value for property taxes" = market value via their Stalinist show trial "judges".
Elon Musk better be paying close attention as these fascists are just salivating at the thought of taking Musk out and divvying up his companies amongst their connected insiders.
About the looting… if and when it raises to the level of an emergency, it will be an opportunity to do things you thought you could not do before.
“And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Revelation 13:17
Trump Crime Family makes the Bidens look like pikers.
Via X: 🚨BREAKING: JUDGE RULES TRUMP DEFRAUDED BANKS & INSURERS
…a judge ruled Trump committed fraud for years as he built his real estate empire.
Judge Arthur Engoron found that Trump and his company deceived banks, insurers and others by massively overvaluing his assets and exaggerating his net worth on paperwork used in making deals and securing financing.
KEY POINTS:
- Engoron found that Trump, his company and key executives repeatedly lied about their wealth on their annual financial statements, reaping rewards such as favorable loan terms and lower insurance premiums.
- Engoron states that those tactics crossed the line, rejecting Trump’s contention that a disclaimer on the financial statements absolved him of any wrongdoing.
- Engoron ordered that some of Trump’s business licenses be rescinded as punishment, making it difficult or impossible for them to do business in New York.
- He also said he would continue to have an independent monitor oversee the Trump Organization’s operations.
- Engoron’s ruling, in a phase of the case known as summary judgment, resolves the key claim in the lawsuit, but six others remain.
“In defendants’ world: rent regulated apartments are worth the same as unregulated apartments; restricted land is worth the same as unrestricted land; restrictions can evaporate into thin air; a disclaimer by one party casting responsibility on another party exonerates the other party’s lies That is a is a fantasy world, not the real world.” - From Engoron's ruling.
MadTownGuy reports, Looting reported at Foot Locker store...
The looters are "not necessarily" protesting the dismissal of charges against a Philadelphia police officer.
It's all so boringly predictable. One must assume the Dems planned this descent into barbarism, that it's the intended result of wokism and not an unintended byproduct of naive policies. Even AOC isn't that brainless.
Scott Adams on the anti-Trump latest hit:
Context:
It was once my job to approve business loans for a bank. We believed nothing applicants told us, relying only on documents such as tax returns and third-party assessments.
Nearly all applicants "exaggerate" their ability to repay a loan. None were indicted.
I couldn't even insure my house without the insurance company walking through it to see for themselves.
So, I have questions.
Think about the precedent and the weapon this New Soviet democratical corrupted judicial "ruling" hands to the dems: literally any republican/conservative in New York state that has ever received a business loan or line of credit with a home or other asset valuation subject to property tax can now be targeted at the whim of the 100% New Soviet democratical controlled judicial system.
Anyone they want. At any time.
Which is the entire point. To be this openly corrupt and loving every minute of it. In precisely the same way that Che loved shooting farmers because they were naturally hard workers and instinctively entrepreneurial.
The International Crane Foundation in Baraboo, Wisconsin is doing wonderful work with all cranes. It is the only place in the world you can see all 15 of the world’s crane species. If you have a chance to visit, it’s amazing.
Despite their namesake, methinks they like marshy areas with cattails the best. However, they've been appearing in many terrains lately...including intersections.
The Ukrainian Nazi scandal would be fed into the memory hole if the memory hole was any longer needed.
There are repercussions. The Speaker of the Canadian Parliament has been forced to step down over the Ukrainian Nazi, sacrificing his career to save Trudeau’s. Meanwhile Poland has initiated extradition proceedings against the guy on war crimes charges — apparently the SS unit to which the guy belonged committed atrocities against Polish civilians. But would Poland really hang a 98 year old man?
Dave Begley said...
"Serious civil litigation result against Trump in NY. Receiver appointed. Corp and LLCs dissolved. $250m fine. Maybe all properties to be sold. Taxable event. Seems very, very harsh."
Don't forget the $7,500. sanctions levied on each of Trump's attorneys. Think they'll collect their fees?
“My Civil rights have been violated, and some Appellate Court, whether federal or state, must reverse this horrible, un-American decision”
armgirl said...
"It’s hard to have energy to keep house when you’re the hired man(sorta)."
Is this Meade posting under an assumed name?
Dave Begley said...
Serious civil litigation result against Trump in NY. Receiver appointed. Corp and LLCs dissolved. $250m fine. Maybe all properties to be sold. Taxable event. Seems very, very harsh.
Yep. Amazing. A judge found Trump and his organization guilty of fraud- yet- none of the defrauded parties suffered damages or complained. So who's going to benefit from all the fines since there are no damaged parties for money to be returned to?
Showing their winter grey. If the greens keeper at your golf club doesn’t deal with grubs, those things will, and the damage can be pretty extensive.
Dave Begley said...
Serious civil litigation result against Trump in NY. Receiver appointed. Corp and LLCs dissolved. $250m fine. Maybe all properties to be sold. Taxable event. Seems very, very harsh
You're the lawyer, Dave, but a $250 million fine is minuscule in the circumstances. And of course, in real estate all property sales are taxable, even if Trump's Saudi and Qatari "friends" buy up all the properties. Depreciation recapture gets you every time, so it is time for yet another monster MAGA fundraiser.
New York Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron granted the state AG’s motion for summary judgment (in part), which means he found that Trump had, in fact, committed fraud when he overvalued real estate assets by $2.2 billion dollars in order to secure bank loans and better insurance coverage, between 2014 and 2021 - what Michael Cohen told Congress a long time ago.
farmgirl said...
I had visitors today. They buy Organic Valley milk so I introduced them to some of my milkers.
Organic Valley Milk from La Farge on the Kickapoo? So the milkers were the folks who do the milking, the machines that do the milking, the cows, or all of the above?
I can picture those two cranes looking at you and thinking "I should've brought my camera,..."
Yeah, I got the "Far Side" in me.
Podcasters would do well not to introduce guests by explaining why they're important people, or worse let the guest introduce themselves that way. I doubt anybody listens beyond the beginning of that.
"Despite their namesake, methinks they like marshy areas with cattails the best."
I just planted cattail seeds in my yard. In the desert. We have a gray water drain that feeds the acacia and can become a little swampy if we do too much laundry. Cattail seeds are what you'd imagine, white fluff. I hope they take root, because I would find it a small miracle.
I don't expect sandhill cranes to visit, though.
"Yeah, calling Communist China behind the president's back and saying you'll give them a heads up if there's ever a military strike wasn't cool."
Skeptical Stoic
@StoicSkeptical
Replying to @JeffreyGoldberg
“Why doesn’t Trump just accept our election rigging with dignity?”
- Ruling Class Uniparty
12:04 PM · Sep 25, 2023
Jeffrey Goldberg
@JeffreyGoldberg
“I’ve worked for 8 presidents, and not even Lyndon Johnson or Richard Nixon in their angriest moments would have considered doing or saying some of the things that were said between the election and January 6.” -- Former Defense Secretary Robert Gates
The underTruth 🇺🇲✡️
@CryptoDetecti18
Replying to @JeffreyGoldberg
That's because the level of betrayal and sabotage of Trump's administration was unprecedented. It was basically a coup.
8:55 PM · Sep 24, 2023
https://twitchy.com/brettt/2023/09/26/former-defense-sec-robert-gates-never-worked-for-an-angrier-president-than-donald-trump-n2387779
Kiev is big mad that Poland wants the extradition of that Nazi whose unit murdered large numbers of Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Jews, probably Gypsies too, you know, in order to fight Russia in WWII, when fighting Russia meant defending the operation of extermination camps.
The nature of the Kiev regime cannot be hidden forever.
IF this were anybody else's dog...the dog would have been put to sleep after the 1st, if not 2nd bite....I blame the owners.
CNN Politics
@CNNPolitics
·
Follow
President Joe Biden’s younger dog, Commander, bit another US Secret Service agent at the White House Monday evening, CNN has learned, the 11th known biting incident involving the 2-year-old German Shepherd. https://cnn.it/3PU4dpi
https://x.com/CNNPolitics/status/1706774624036335982?s=20
This shocking scene reminds me that Freeland was so desperate to censor the history of her grandfather, Michael Chomiak, serving as Hitler's top Ukrainian propagandist in Nazi-occupied Poland, she had four Russian diplomats deported for daring to raise the issue
https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1706729839435431995
Yeah, Chrystia "Stop calling my grandfather a Nazi!" Freeland, Deputy PM of Canada, who was instrumental in freezing the bank accounts and seizing other assets of truckers who were protesting government vaccine policy, because a person, likely a plant, waved a Nazi flag, nods vigorously as the Canadian parliament votes to try to erase the fact that they all stood and cheered a Ukrainian Nazi, while Zelensky did a couple of fist pumps.
"Despite her wealth and prestige, Michelle Obama is a woman who feels that life has done her wrong. She’s a race hustler who waves her skin color around like an angry flag. If you don’t worship at her feet, it’s not because you dislike her values or her personality. It’s because you’re part of a systemically racist, capitalist, American system that offends her to the core, despite her having benefitted from that same capitalist, American system in a way few people ever have or will."
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2023/09/michelle_obama_got_750000_for_a_single_speech_in_munich.html
Celebration of 34th or 43rd birthday, plus discarded recliner pic
The recliner won't be picked up until it's wrapped in plastic, a new garbage rule.
Taibbi: Visual timeline shows who came up with Russiagate…
https://www.racket.news/p/timeline-darpa-and-the-dnc-hack?
We have turkeys. A flock of suburban turkeys. They add a little bit of spice to the lives our domesticated dogs.
Some years ago I got interested in the details of the exiled Nicaraguan Somoza's assassination in Paraguay. I read a book or two, and then Wikipedia, then forgot about it. But had I reread at least the last before my recent trip, I'd've recognized I was in the area! Not that I'd've seen anything significant. Things would've been tidied up. And I doubt there's a historical marker, although what a scene it must have been. Somoza's car took the rocket hit so hard, he had to be ID'd from his feet - your joke *here*. Yet among his effects there emerged his American Express card - your joke *here*. The killers had rented a safe house by claiming they were representatives of Julio Iglesias - your joke *here*. I was in any case pleased to find, 43 years later, a couple of really good-looking shopping malls. Third-Worlders do these things so nicely.
And my hotel was right next to the Porsche dealership! (I presume Asunción has just one, but I could be wrong.) Come to think of it, the very first thing I saw as the bus crossed the river from Argentina was a golf course, a great rarity in Latin America. And as I left the country, I found Ciudad del Este a lot more substantial than it had appeared on my first visit, in 1996. By "substantial" I do not mean "attractive," not in any esthetic sense. I just mean the bazaars were in actual buildings, not under black plastic tarps.
Lem the misspeller said...
Scott Adams on the anti-Trump latest hit:
"Context:
It was once my job to approve business loans for a bank. We believed nothing applicants told us, relying only on documents such as tax returns and third-party assessments.
Nearly all applicants "exaggerate" their ability to repay a loan. None were indicted.
I couldn't even insure my house without the insurance company walking through it to see for themselves.
So, I have questions."
I was a real estate appraisor for a short while. Depoending on who was paying I was either an appraisor or a "good" appraisor. The banks have their own appraisors. This is yet another desperate move to keep Trump off the ballot.
Gadfly. That would be the cows. The "girls". The "milkers". What's the point of going into a barn and being introduced to the milking machine?
"Just ignore those cows." "This is our milking machine." "This baby can suck the chrome off off a bumper!"
Guests, " ZZzzzzz."
wendybar said...
"Taibbi: Visual timeline shows who came up with Russiagate…"
Who needs that, when Jonathan Allen and Amie Parnes were invited by Hillary to be the room when they dreamed it up? Did everyone - everyone - forget? Or just ignored it - since 2016?
“Within 24 hours of her concession speech,” the authors report, campaign manager Robby Mook and campaign chair John Podesta “assembled her communications team at the Brooklyn headquarters to engineer the case that the election wasn’t entirely on the up-and-up. For a couple of hours, with Shake Shack containers littering the room, they went over the script they would pitch to the press and the public. Already, Russian hacking was the centerpiece of the argument.”
The way this country handles the Clintons - or doesn't - is criminal.
Many benefit programs are funded by the Federal government and administrated by the states. The SNAP program is one such. The states have no incentive to reduce fraud and in some cases actually create fraud because the fraud benefits them. The way to eliminate fraud is to eliminate the Federal grants to the states and make the states pay for the programs themselves. This split between funding and administration is inherently problematic. Stopping Federal funding will make the states have skin in the game and make them responsible for any fraud.
'tim in vermont' writes (5:39am):
"Kiev is big mad that Poland wants the extradition of that Nazi whose unit murdered large numbers of Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Jews, probably Gypsies too, you know, in order to fight Russia in WWII, when fighting Russia meant defending the operation of extermination camps."
Of course, he provides no link. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that Ukraine has done any such thing.
(As I've noted before, anyone who insisted on calling the Turkish city of Izmir 'Smyrna' would show himself to be an anti-Turkish bigot and an asshole. Yet 'tim in vermont' just can't bring himself to call the capital of Ukraine by its actual name.)
Of course, actual Ukrainians are shocked and disgusted that high-ranking morons in Canada provided Putin and his boot-lickers with such a handy bit of propaganda. Here are two (reposter and repostee): link. Read the whole thread.
And here's an actual expert on Eastern Europe pointing out that far more Russians than Ukrainians served in Nazi military units, many of them waving the same white-blue-red flag Russia adopted when the USSR collapsed: link. Why doesn't everyone already know this?
Wendybar,
Your comment inspired a TMR post
Dr. Weevil, thanks for that corrective.
Anyone with even passing knowledge of the Nazi-Soviet conflict knows about the "Hilfswilliger".
Unfortunately, even at Althouse some people who comment a lot about it, don't have even that passing knowledge.
Which isn't even to get into the fact that Ukraine itself suffered more in losses of population and infrastructure in 1941-44 than did Russia proper, which was singed while
Ukraine, Belorussia, and the Baltic States burned.
It's traditional though--those who cry and moan about the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk in 1918 like to present it as "Russia lost this" or "Russia was stripped of that," as if non-Russians and their gains don't count.
My bad - here's the link: "This Is NOT America - It's A Crime Scene (Media's Free Ride For The Clintons)"
So you need a link that Ukrainian members of the Waffen SS killed large numbers of Poles, Jews, Chechs, and Slovaks during Nazi occupation right up until the Red Army put a stop to it? Please.
The Red Army did a lot of murdering themselves, BTW, Putin actually apologized to Poland for the Katyn Massacre though, and that massacre was reprehensible. I haven't heard Ukraine apologize of the stuff Bandera did, they just seem to still be angry that the KGB killed him. An apology is a start.
Once again, none of our business to avenge the wrongs that commies committed against Nazis or to get involved in border disputes within the bounds of the former USSR, and indeed, the old borders of Russia anymore than it is China's business to cross the ocean and right the wrongs we have done to Mexico, even if Mexico invites them, or the Plains Indians, or... well you know I could go on and on.
"Of course, actual Ukrainians are shocked and disgusted that high-ranking morons in Canada provided Putin and his boot-lickers with such a handy bit of propaganda."
Zelensky surely knew exactly who this guy was, and whom he fought for and alongside of, and he pumped his fist in the ovation. You can't blame Canadian ignorance for that.
Lol!! Sorry.
I introduce only to the milk makers.
I guess it could be any of the above- but they already knew me.
"And here's an actual expert on Eastern Europe pointing out that far more Russians than Ukrainians served in Nazi military "
Are the Russians asking us for money and weapons?
'tim in vermont' (1:46pm) repeats a lie that I've refuted at least four times before, without him ever responding: "Once again, none of our business to avenge the wrongs that commies committed against Nazis or to get involved in border disputes within the bounds of the former USSR".
The fact is that Bill Clinton, as president of the United States, convinced Ukraine to give up their nuclear deterrent in return for a solemn guarantee of their 1991 borders. It is the business of the United States to keep its promises, and we are in fact obligated to defend Ukraine's 1991 borders.
He also demonstrates that he didn't bother to follow my links: I wasn't writing about the horrible atrocities of the Red Army - and only a mealy-mouthed shill would think "reprehensible" a sufficient characterization of the Katyn massacres. I was writing about the vastly more numerous Russian members of the Waffen SS, who are just fine with 'tim'. As are all the Neo-Nazis who support Putin and often have their pictures taken with him. For instance, the founder of Wagner (Utkin) had a swastika tattoo, named his group Wagner because he was Hitler's favorite composer, and had excellent relations with Putin until he and Prigozhin marched on Moscow. I've supplied numerous examples before, but 'tim' continues to pretend that Ukrainians are all Nazis and Russians are never Nazis, when the fact is that a far larger percentage of Russians are Nazis or act like them.
Will 'tim' respond to this? Probably not. He generally ignores refutations of his arguments, then repeats them in the next open thread as if they had never been refuted, like a common troll.
Yeltsin apologized for Katyn, tim-in-vermont.
And Bandera (whose importance and influence you magnify by orders of magnitude) was not the Ukrainian government. There was no Ukrainian government, whereas the crimes of the Soviets were all organized and carried out by the Soviet government. The Germans let Bandera posture for about a week and then kept him in a camp until they became desperate in late '44 and let him try to recruit and organize Ukes to fight for them, which didn't go that well.
Not that it matters--we've agreed that the Bloodlands are well-named--but I wonder if anyone has apologized for the almost 20,000 (twenty k) political prisoners murdered by the NKVD in Lviv, Sambir, Stanyslaviv, Rivne, Lutsk, and other places as they fled in panic before the Germans in June-July '41?
Just to throw in another wrinkle, in west Ukraine, Belarus, and adjacent areas the Soviets had to use multi-division operations to stamp out the -nationalist- partisans, as late as the late '40s.
Dr Weevil-
I too have heartburn over our reneging on our pledge to defend Ukraine's borders in exchange for them giving up their nukes.
Let's pretend that Ukraine still had nukes. How would that change anything? Would they use them against Russia first? That would surely result in the annihilation of Kiev and the rest of the country in short order, by very PO'd Putin, who has way more nukes than the Ukrainians would, and better delivery systems. Russia has not used their nukes despite losing terribly in their attempts at taking Ukraine by conventional means, so they are unlikely to use them at any point short of being on the receiving end from us.
Do you think that we should give Ukraine a few nukes now and tell them they're on their own? I don't see the nuke issue as being dispositive in the discussion of whether we should continue letting the Ukrainians raid our defense capability. Obama would call it "stray voltage."
"Let's pretend that Ukraine still had nukes. How would that change anything?"
For one, why wouldn't the Ukrainians, who actually had a lot of Soviet aerospace tech, develop their own delivery systems, which would only have to be good enough to ensure a high cost to the Russians. Would Putin or any other Russian leader risk Moscow and Petersburg just to take over a radioactive Ukraine? Or even a non-radioactive Ukraine?
FTR&WIW, I don't think we should give anyone nukes; how much or little we should help the Ukrainians in other ways is over my pay grade and my thoughts will be of no consequence to those in charge. (Historians get used to that.)
Narr,
"...those who cry and moan about the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk in 1918..."
Never met any of those. Not many of them around for a simple reason that this Treaty was never really put into effect. It was signed in March 1918 between Bolsheviks (Reds) and Central Powers (Imperial Germany). Whatever Bolsheviks conceded they had no control over anyway. November 1918 Imperial Germany sued for peace, basically admitting defeat in WW1, Bolsheviks immediately broke all the agreements and the treaty became null and void. In the interim, Reds were hanging for their dear lives through the 1918, while the Whites were on the offensive. Whites never signed any treaty and remained at war with Imperial Germany as nominal allies with Entente Powers.
"Never met any of those."
Historians argue constantly over the fairness and unfairness of Versailles in 1919, and one of the comparisons is to Brest-Litovsk. It is held up by some as a justification for the (supposedly) too-harsh Versailles Treaty.
Russophiles like to use B-L as an example of how -Russians- suffered. Nobody else counts.
You are correct that it only recognized the realities, and did not in fact deprive Russians of anything much that they hadn't forfeited through their own incompetence.
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