"New York City was... the first jurisdiction to insist on 'full gender neutrality,' meaning an employer can 'require an individual identifying as female to wear a bra or hide her nipples, but only if the same rule applies to a male employee.'... When it comes to federal law... 'it only requires that dress codes have gender parity with regard to burdens such as cost.'... As to the notion that bras are necessary for women’s health... there is no particular medical reason to wear a bra (and... bras don’t prevent sagging).... To be faced with freed breasts, whether or not nipples are visible, is to be forced to confront deep-seated prejudices about all of this, and that is both upsetting and distracting to a lot of people. Especially at this particular moment in time, when control of women’s bodies and their reproductive purpose has become once again a hot-button political issue.... It is not, of course, your job to make other people comfortable or to help them sort through their own feelings about all of the above...."
Writes Vanessa Friedman in "Are There Any Rules About Going Braless? A reader wonders when it’s OK to abandon the undergarment" (NYT)
The wondering reader is from Madison, Wisconsin, I note. It wasn't me, I should add, though I have the same question. And I believe Friedman did not answer the question asked.
The question — asked of the fashion columnist — was: "I find bras totally uncomfortable, hot and itchy, for both work and leisure. But looking around, I seem to be in the minority. What are the rules for going braless? Is it OK to show my nips, or is it rude?"
I think this woman wanted fashion rules — and tips on how to do it well, how to balance your selfish interests against the interests of others. I don't think she was looking for license to make other people uncomfortable but just good advice about getting the most comfort for herself, both physically and mentally. She didn't want to be "rude." Is the visibility of the nipple shape an imposition on others? Think about that NYC rule. We accept the visibility of male nipple shapes. It would be funny to begin to get very annoyed at having to glimpse the telltale sign of nipples under men's T-shirts.
But maybe Friedman is tired of the usual fashion advice. How tedious to explain the "pencil test" and to suggest silicone nipple covers and all that. They took away the right to govern whether your body will go through pregnancy and childbirth, so it's not the time to go looking for more rules about controlling the female body.
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Even Hillary was distracted by what both attracts and distracts me,
https://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/566750/85033835.jpg
There is no mystery in sex and conception. Women have four choices and six weeks until their baby legally and rationally meets granny in biological state in all 50 states. That is to say that women can elect to abort their child in the first six weeks of her life. It's a wicked solution, but a viable starting point to mitigate social progress.
I don't care. My body, my choice. I never wear a bra ever....
When speaking to you, should people address your eyes or your nipples? That's a gender neutral question.
If bras don't keep the breasts from sagging (really?) then they at least stop the appearance of sagging. Many people try to look younger than they are. Perky is youthful.
There is ideology and there is pragmatic reality. Some of us choose to fiddle as Rome burns.
Women have very large breasts and nipples by mammal standards -- and they are permanently large. This was (until Woke happened) routinely interpreted as (1) something to manage to limit unwanted attention, and (2) something that evolved hundreds of thousands of years ago because human female fertility is invisible (no swollen butts nor strong scents that males detect).
So, fight nature if you want. Or be pragmatic. Men welcomed bra burning in the early feminist movement and will again (on bio females). Those who jerk others around will -- as always -- be shunned or bullied. You reap what you sow.
As for the nipple, its sexual significance became ambiguous with transgender pride and congruence. However, in the vast majority of the human population, it has not changed from the days of human biology. Self-moderation is still in effect.
"They took away the right to govern whether your body will go through pregnancy and childbirth...."
A right to abortion never existed under the Constitution. Neither did state-enforced segregation under the rubric of "separate but equal." Get over it.
I worked in Richmond Virginia in the late 70's. From about June to September almost all the women of almost all ages stopped wearing bras. The humidity, I suppose.
The thing is, men think differently about women's breasts than women do about men's. That's simple evolutionary biology.
If women want the same legal/regulatory freedom as men, vis-a-vis the showing of breasts or nipples, go for it.
But don't expect men to ignore yours as we ignore other men's. That ain't gonna happen - we're going to look, and (depending on the specific circumstances) we're going to enjoy the view.
If you don't want that to happen, you'll have to choose to cover up.
There are no rules! Burn those useless contraptions, women!
I don't think men (for the most part) have any problem seeing braless women in the workplace. I think it's other women who will object, because of the perceived effect some of those nipples will have on male coworkers.
Wasn't there a piece just a few days ago about how women pay just as much attention as men do to other women's boobs?
Actually the medical research says it is inconclusive if bras help or hurt in preventing sagging. Some think bras help by reducing the stress on the skin and muscles to hold them up. Others think bras hurt by not training the muscles and skin to hold them up. But the research is usually summed up as not enough data to be certain.
I find it interesting that the NYT can say something conclusive about unsettled science.
"Are There Any Rules About Going Braless?"
Which country we talking about? Some countries basically let you do what you want. Those are the countries I like.
"I got a heavy stacked woman with a smile on her face"
There was a time in the 1980s when prominent nipples were quite fashionable. In fact, there were department store mannequins with them, some depicting teenage girls.
I'm in favor of no bra wearing!
When speaking to you, should people address your eyes or your nipples? That's a gender neutral question.
Some of the things always left out of those discussions is the height difference of the two people. A shorter person looking at a taller person will have to strain their neck to constantly look at the other's eyes. A taller person isn't necessarily looking down your shirt if looking down to see your eyes. A confident person will keep their head up generally and have no issue with making eye contact. A less confident person will avoid eye contact generally.
So yeah, a gender neutral question.
While we're on the subject, why is it that women with large bosoms always wear necklines that reveal their cleavage?
My ladies need a house.
“To be faced with freed breasts, whether or not nipples are visible, is to be forced to confront deep-seated prejudices about all of this, and that is both upsetting and distracting to a lot of people.”
That depends on the owner of the breasts. If it were, say, Margo Robbie, I wouldn’t feel upset or compelled to confront anything. Though I might be a bit distracted.
My sense of fascination and wonder only increased when I heard Jeannie C. Riley singing about Shirley Thompson’s “nipple chin” in Harper Valley P.T.A.
If women can show their legs, does this mean that men can too?
So, The Law* says, that you can wear the slinkiest, sluttiest clothing you WANT to wear..
The law*, Also says; that NO MATTER how slinky and slutty you and your clothing are:
a Man is REQUIRED, by The Law*, to ONLY look you in the eyes, and NOT to think ANY sexual thoughts about you, EVER.. AT ALL! Unless, of course, that Man is a hottie; and then OF COURSE!
The Law* as interpreted by women, for women
Back before I retired my company’s dress code was simple: if you were going to meet a customer, or might be called into a meeting with a customer, you should be “neat and professional” in your attire. Many male managers and males at the senior engineer level kept a navy sport coat in their office and a couple ties in a desk drawer, and were careful to come to work in leather shoes, grey or khaki slacks, and a shirt that would look appropriate with a color-coordinated tie under a navy blazer. Women couldn’t do that as easily, but had a much wider range of tasteful business attire available, so probably came out ahead.
But a woman who comes to work looking as though she was thrown out of the sleaziest brothel in town for dressing too provocatively has chosen to limit how high she can be promoted. If they might be the face of the company towards customers, then they should look as though they are professional scientists, engineers, and/or managers, not hookers.
This will be great! Get rid of the law that makes women wear bras, then scream about not having a law that makes it illegal for men to look at women's nipples! It will give all those bored Manhatten women something to do this Fall!
Technically they're wearing clothes, but I see a lot of women in these tight yoga pants. They're second only to thong bikinis in approaching full on nudity. Should men be allowed to see the rounded shape of women's derriere's? I hope nipple awareness doesn't distract us from this important moral issue. My consciousness has been raised, and I'm paying attention.
Bras can offer structural support, which may be welcomed by well endowed women, and others in certain contexts.
I was in college in the 75-80 period here in Texas... lots of braless abounding, especially at registration time.
Brought smiles to us males! We didn't mind it at all!
Kate said...
"When speaking to you, should people address your eyes or your nipples? That's a gender neutral question."
Genetics has programmed me,(male), to notice all female secondary sexual charcteristics. So yeah. I'm looking at your boobs and nips. I'm just not being obvious about it. It's a guy thing.
Most of my braless girlfriends wore lots of sweatshirts and loose sweaters. Problem solvers…
I did a stint in fashion retail in college. I was always surprised how designers loved sheer clingy fabrics for women. Every flaw, every strap, every nipple. Yuk…
Men often wear undershirts/t-shirts/tank top (the English term, vests) under shirts, especially thinner shirts.
If a bra is uncomfortable, how about a sports bra? It isn't necessarily for sports. Also, it's possible to wear clothes which don't accentuate the fact that one is braless, no?
I think this woman wanted fashion rules — and tips on how to do it well
Did you use the word tips purposefully?
Tips for Nips would be a good name for a fashion column on all things bra-related.
Woman in her 20s:
*points to her eyes* "Hey! Eyes up here!"
Woman in her 60s:
*points to her chest* "Hey! Eyes up here!"
Tsk, tsk, @Enigma. Starting with observable facts and demanding that theory and conclusions be consistent with them is an outmoded Western method of analysis. Modern analysis demands that we begin by identifying a power relationship in which our preferred conclusion advantages an oppressed class. Any observable “facts” that are inconsistent with the preferred conclusion may then be dismissed as “socially constructed” through abuse of the power relationship. This is the path to our glorious future.
Don't wear a bra if you don't want to. I know lots of women who never wear one and nobody takes any notice, probably helped by enough sag or small enough size so that the body itself supplies anti-jiggle support.
Nipples are a nothing if it's the same every day.
That's how Playboy could sell a magazine every month. No interest in the old ones.
Cyril (Bearing Away), "Going to college must do 'something' to girls' tits. Just look at them. Campussies and sororititties."
I met two women at the vet this morning and don't remember a thing about their breasts. Just a data point. Mostly in women I remember tattoos and nose rings.
[staring at her nose ring] My eyes are up here.
This is what happens when someone invents a “right” and demands that government codify it and enforce it.
A happy consequence is that lawyers make lots of money when some nut job decides to sue.
Should men be allowed to see the rounded shape of women's derriere's?
Allowed? It should be mandated.
(See what I did there?)
As Rodney Carrington so eloquently put it “show them to me”.
How has Sue Ellen Mischke not been mentioned? She simply must be involved in this conversation, especially in an article from New York. https://seinfeld.fandom.com/wiki/Sue_Ellen_Mischke
“ If bras don't keep the breasts from sagging (really?) then they at least stop the appearance of sagging. Many people try to look younger than they are. Perky is youthful.”
By avoiding the bra you keep the internal structures strong. It guards against sagging.
What bras sell, mostly, is shape.
There's a history of bras somewhere, I think called "Lifts and Separates."
This is HR, Mr. JAORE. We need to speak about an incident where you reportedly stared at another employee's nipples.
Me: Man or woman?
HR: We are not at liberty to say. And it really makes no difference.
Me: Hahahahahahaha. Ya'll are nuts, and that's a gender neutral comment in case you can't figure it out.
I suppose SueAnn Mishke was unavailable for comment?
John Henry
This again? As I recall, ditching the bra was part of hippiness, then banning it outright was a political statement made by the women's movement. Also recall guys going 'commando' in those days.
By avoiding the bra you keep the internal structures strong. It guards against sagging.
The law of gravity grinds slowly but it grinds exceedingly fine.
“Most of my braless girlfriends wore lots of sweatshirts and loose sweaters.”
…and they looked like two fat little boys, wrestling under a blanket…
" ... to be forced to confront deep-seated prejudices about all of this, ... is ... upsetting ..."
This is one of the six ideas which have replaced all other ideas in our impoverished intellectual landscape. If you can force these words onto a situation, you win - for now. But one day sociologists opposed to traditional behaviors will be forced to confront their seep-seated prejudice against people who are happy in their traditions and they'll find it upsetting to hear the prejudices inculcated by Sociology 101 challenged.
It's like the people who will soon have to realize that they challenged injustice - which is a great and good thing to do - but that they themselves did it in such a way that they brought into being even greater injustice against the original victims. As when BLM caused policing changes which increased the murder rate in Milwaukee and only in the black community.
“By avoiding the bra you keep the internal structures strong. It guards against sagging.”
I’m not a structural engineer by profession, but I suspect Althouse is on solid ground here.
Remember that Saturday Night Live skit where buxom space aliens with eyes where their nipples should be arrived to to warn us about global warming, but the guys didn't hear anything the aliens said because they were too busy staring deep into their "eyes"
So if you're an environmentalist, you should definitely wear a bra.
"To be faced with freed breasts, whether or not nipples are visible, is to be forced to confront deep-seated prejudices about all of this, and that is both upsetting and distracting to a lot of people."
That there's one of them "tough shit" issues.
I personally don't worry about staring - I don't have to. I'm blessed with the ability to "store" an image I see. A simple sweep with a blink at the right moment and I have a photo to peruse for the next ## minutes. I've always had it, but I refined it when I was doing portraits, as people never really sit still enough.
I will take the contrarian position that sometimes men should (morally or aesthetically if not legally required) wear bras. I am looking at -- or rather away from -- Andrew Cuomo and photos that suggest some extra hardware in that department.
To the original topic, though, I'll do my best to not be distracted, and I really don't care about someone's choice to wear or not wear a bra unless someone wants to fault me if I occasionally am distracted.
For a long time I had problems with my underwearing until I discovered the problem was me. I wasn’t meticulously drying my boys after a shower. So I was creating a moist sticky environment which led to always having to… how can I put it… move them boys around because the stickiness felt uncomfortable. For a long time I thought it was just the way it was for everybody.
Bottom line… we ought to come with a manual.
It is not, of course, your job to make other people comfortable or to help them sort through their own feelings about all of the above....
I see the author also opposes trying to force or control men to not stare or leer at the now braless women in the workplace. As long as men and their employers can't get in trouble or be sued for looking at or failing to prevent men from looking at braless women I fully support the author's goal. After all if women feel uncomfortable with men looking at them in such a fashion that is on them. It is not men's nor their employer's job to help women sort out their feelings.
Is it ok for a man to wear a size Z codpiece if they are a public school teacher?
My wife used to complain about them all the time, but at some point, IDK, 10-15 years ago they started making more supportive all-cloth bras (sort-of of like exercise bras plus) which she loves & says are super-comfy.
Go braless, go makeup free and skip the hair coloring.
Freedom from the patriarchy..
Sexual harassment was deprecated with #MeToo and similar NOW, wait, friendly fire, DEI, take a knee movements.
The preceeding message has been brought to you by the makers of Bag Balm!
Odd that she equates "rules" with "laws". Of course there are no laws on whether a woman has to wear a bra when otherwise covering her breasts. There's no law that requires anyone (man or woman) to wear underwear at all as long as their sexy bits are covered.
But there a lot of rules. Dress codes, for one. Social mores and expectations for another example.
I think this speaks to a certain tendency of the progressive mindset, and particularly feminism. Feminists and progs want to destroy social cohesion that is built around norms, social mores, and expectations of behavior. And when these benighted femmies and progs realize that they miss the benefits of these long-understood and accepted norms they agitate for these norms to become laws and be enforced by gun-wielding government employees.
Femmies and Progs want to be subjects, not citizens. And they want everyone else to be the same.
It would be funny to begin to get very annoyed at having to glimpse the telltale sign of nipples under men's T-shirts.
Insert Trump tweet about Barney Frank ("nipples protruding") here.
It's funny to imagine the HR meetings a guy would have if he wore super-tight pants to show off his genital bulge to unappreciate coworkers.
There's a post-9/11 SNL sketch with Will Ferrel in a patriotic thong that comes to mind.
The rule, as usual, is that women must be free to do as they please (dress, etc) and if their choices impose discomfort on others that's too bad--other people will just have to deal with that (women's *BODIES* are theirs and how dare you even comment on how they're presented/used) --while, simultaneously, we must all be acutely sensitive to any discomfort or unease women might themselves feel.
If you're overheard saying something that a woman finds offensive (whether or not you intended to give offense or could have imagined you might give offense) that's actionable--women have a right not to be made to feel upset. If, on the other hand, you're upset by a woman's visibly erect nipples you'd better just keep that to yourself, bucko; suck it up, be a man, stop trying to control how others present themselves!
Me personally I'm all for it, blast 'em out, free the nipple, etc: no objections here!
I might spare a thought for kids in school who have to ignore their peers wearing leggings/stretch tops/workout gear as everyday clothes, but I guess they'll just have to learn early to look but not stare (Seinfeld cleavage-style).
There was man known as "bicycle shorts guy" in Atlanta who used to wear just that as pants and had an unmistakably, probably medically-worrisome crotch area on full display at the intersection at which he hung out (so to speak). He was just a fashion pioneer, avant garde, turns out!
I never heard the end of that story about the Canadian HS teacher who transitioned--or claimed to--and was photographed in school with grotesquely large fake breasts (a plastic appliance, likely): was that determined to be a troll/intentional false action designed to highlight the absurdity of the rule, or was that guy actually nuts?
Either way it was fun to watch the spin: as an official woman it was his body (even though it clearly wasn't) and the Nice People understood it would be wrong to criticize her/him for dressing in any way she/he chose.
I'd love a rule that said no visible nipples through clothes for both men and women. Men who don't wear an undershirt look gross.
They sure hurt after hanging free a few hours tho. It's the tendons or something.
i just learned on tiktok, that MANY people are "D.I.D." ..
[
Dissociative identity disorder, which means, that:
a) They are CRAZY
b) They like to pretend that they have multiple personalities (identities)
]
Of these people with D.I.D, according to TikTok, OFTEN Some of their identities will be trans
(seriously, are you surprised?).. BUT! Some of their identities will be de-transitioning..
But That's OKAY! and DOESN'T Mean that you shouldn't keep taking your Hormone Replacement Therapy, or worry about your surgeries.. Because (And, i am QUOTING HERE)
Gender is Just a Personal Choice and has NOTHING to do with biology.. Gender is WHAT EVER YOU WANT.
So, if Some of your identities want to de-trans, they can do that WITHOUT changing meds or surgeries.. Because GENDER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BIOLOGY (again, i am Just QUOTING the TikTok person).
All of which, makes ME think.. IF
Gender is Just a Personal Choice and has NOTHING to do with biology.. Gender is WHAT EVER YOU WANT.
Why the f*ck do Any of their identities need any HRT or surgery?
If the de-transitioning identities aren't hurt by the HRT or surgery.. And can get by JUST FINE with it
WHY can't the trans identities get by WITHOUT it?
if a person is pretending to be insane (D.I.D., gender dysphoria, etc)..
Doesn't That pretty much mean, they ARE insane?
And; If an insane person wants to take drugs, or chop off parts of their bodies...
Don't WE, as a Society, have a DUTY to protect them, from themselves?
If they say: "If you DON'T LET ME chop off parts of my body.. I WILL Kill myself"..
Doesn't THAT just PROVE that they are Really REALLY insane? and should be protected from themselves?
Inga? What am i missing? you're a nurse.. Please explain? Thanx!
The only issue I see is some women go braless then feel they've a right to complain when their "nips" are noticed. That is the same as pronouns, putting an imposition on others. Wear or don't wear a bra, if you are concerned with protuberances causing distraction take some measure to limit them. Or get enough women doing it from an early age so that the female nipple is no more remarked on than the male nipple.
All in all, it is a plot by Big Bra to keep the less endowed girls down. Toplessness favors woman with less need for cantilever balance after 23 or so.
Visibly erect penis (usually a sign of sexual arousal) on a man = rude in public, impolite; in an office setting could certainly cause hostile workplace claims.
Visibly erect nipples (sometimes a sign on sexual arousal) on a woman = perfectly fine in public, how dare you stare at me you pig, if you think they're distracting that's your problem; even mentioning being bothered by seeing them in a workplace would probably be grounds for action against the noticer.
This was all hashed out in a court case covered by that New York documentary show on NBC in 1996, wasn't it?
If all of our cultural disputes involved women's boobs, we'd be better off as a society.
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I usually don't wear bras but I do wear undershirts or camisoles if the blouse is revealing.
The "laws" come from other women, especially older women. Statutes wax and wane as the poor girls push convention but eventually the middle class girls take up the freedom. Until they don't then they impose the iron tyranny of social opinion with denigration of the "sluts" poor "servant" girls who miss the cue.
These implacable costumes, male and female, reflected the prevailing credo as to the relations between the sexes. The ideal woman was the sheltered lady, swathed not only in silk and muslin but in innocence and propriety, and the ideal man, whether a pillar of rectitude or a gay dog, virtuously protected the person and reputation of such tender creatures as were entrusted to his care. If unmarried, a girl must be accompanied by a chaperone whenever she ventured out to an evening’s entertainment in the city. If she were a daughter of the rich, a maid might take the place of the chaperone; it was never quite clear, under these circumstances, who was suppose to protect the maid’s virtue. Eleanor Roosevelt has recorded in her autobiography her relief when, at the age of twenty or so, she found that her friend Bob Ferguson was considered close enough to the family to be permitted to escort her home from evening parties at the studio of Bay Emmett the painter. “Otherwise I always had to have a maid wait form me — that was one of the rules my grandmother had laid down.” And James W. Gerard has added his testimony as to the iron code which still governed New York Society in that period. “Even when I was thirty years old,” wrote Gerard in his old age, “if I had asked a girl to dine with me alone, I would have been kicked down her front steps. If I had offered her a cocktail, I would have been tossed out of Society for my boorish effrontery.” Needless to add that a woman must never be seen in a bar — or even a smoking car.
The chaperone was, to be sure, chiefly an urban institution. In the smaller places, especially west of the Alleghenies, and among city people vacationing in the country, the rules were greatly relaxed.
--'The Big Change: America Transforms Itself 1900-1950' (1952), Frederick Allen Lewis
As we see the restrictions were on Society and in the city. Middle class girls were held to a semblance of society rules for respectability.
So, look not in the statute book but the social reputation register for when "braless" is acceptable.
As a trade off for stealing my shirts to lounge about in, the woman sharing my space shall go braless.
I recommend bench presses and pull overs. But that takes time. So silicone implants here we come.
Now about viagra overdosages. Remember the 4 hour rule is more a target than a warning.
My brother was once reprimanded for not wearing an undershirt in the office.
I'm in favor of no bra wearing!
For everyone, Dave?
Before I had kids, my boys (as Patty or Selma Simpson called them, which always cracks me up) were perky as could be, and I wore bras only to hide my nipples - no need for a bra for support. Then - children and chestfeeding, except that I can assure you it was breastfeeding, and the boys were more comfortable to haul around with a bra than without.
And now, in my 50s, they're considerably more relaxed than before, and in my home climate of southeast Texas, I am still more comfortable, even in summer, wearing a bra that holds them off my upper abdomen. And as I think Kate commented above, I'm young enough still that I appreciate the ability to look younger than I am by this simple artificial means. I can't imagine that as I get older and gravity continues to exact its tax, I'll be more comfortable having them continue their slide down my body.
I have friends who are less endowed and can comfortably go without. I can't, at least not without an effective air conditioner.
I don't care if women decide to wear a bra or not. I do think that, as with all sorts of other general rules about appearing in public (zipping your fly, not showing butt crack, not walking around shirtless except at the pool or beach - which is an argument for topless bathing for women and I have no issue with that, though we all know that most of the men who don't wear shirts at the beach are not eye candy and so we can infer that most of the women won't be either) (and oh, how I wish there were an appearance rule about not wearing leggings that are the same color as your skin, so I could stop having my eyes pop out of my head when I see apparently pantsless young women), women should take social context into account in their dress decisions, if they expect to be treated with respect in that particular social context.
I think it's Ben Shapiro who calls it the "face tattoo effect": you cover your face with tattoos, then get deeply offended when anyone notices or comments on them. So if you're really going braless because you want to, cool, go for it. But if you're doing it to make a point, expect people to notice and comment.
"By avoiding the bra you keep the internal structures strong. It guards against sagging."
I'd like to be the judge of that.
"rules, that is to say, laws"
Ms. Friedman has an...interesting...view of social relations. Very (classically) Fascist. How kind of her, and her editors, to make their political philosophy so clear, right up front.
I can't help myself, Ann posts about "bralesness," instead of Biden's "lawlessness."
When Vanessa F worked for the Financial Times, her writing was wonderful. Now, she has this stupid-even-for-NYT column answering dumb AI questions. What a waste.
"A reader wonders when it’s OK to abandon the undergarment" (NYT)"
Apparently at least from the late '60s to the late '70s.
Re: the "pencil test," Florence King once wrote that she could not only hold the pencil but write with it if she had to :-)
As for bras, I've basically gone without for 30+ years. "Bra-burning" (early 70s, so pre-bra for me, but not by much) struck me as more a puzzling waste of time than anything else. Why bother?
But, then, my problems weren't those of most women; I never had to deal with hauling vast quantities of adipose tissue around. Itty Bitty Titty Committee, that's me. At the moment they are barely distinguishable from the average middle-aged man's moobs, which is fine by me. I am inclined to treat this as a whole lotta nuthin', but I do understand that "better"-endowed women might have more pressing concerns.
As for the general persnickityness of women about dress: Jeez, ladies, get over yourselves. Men do not have to undergo this incessant soul-searching about what to wear and whether it will make them look slutty/fat/declasse/overdressed/frou-frou/not "quite-quite." Men throw on whatever happens to be uppermost in the clean-clothes pile and have done with it, full stop. This is the right way to handle it, IMO. These days I am wearing mostly men's shirts (Carbon2Cobalt, 32 Bar Blues, that sort of thing) and women's skirts and casual pants. I get the odd raised eyebrow, but that's about it. So far as I can see, I look about as good as can reasonably be expected.
Nor "n"(erds) wearing shirts portraying certified organic females in sexy poses. Albeit bras included. So TnERF. So trans/genderist. Swarm!
That said, cut out the middle garment and do the walk... the slut walk. Keep women affordable, available, and taxable... and a step below her feminine simulated male counterpart.
"By avoiding the bra you keep the internal structures strong. It guards against sagging"[, she claimed without evidence.]
FIFY!
Probably nothing pisses men off more than to be scolded to "keep your eyes up here" from a woman wearing nipples-poking clothing or bust-out skimpy tops.
"IGNORE my sexual provocations, you pig!!"
Women who persist in this bullshit generally wind up with no man, but lots of cats---and wonder why that's the case.
Put me down as a "yes" to chubby men with man-boobs wearing bras when out in public. I don't want to see a man with bigger tits than mine flaunting them in my face!
I see what CJinPA did there.
This is a topic that comes up regularly when a vacuous female journalist approaches a deadline.
Are boobs obscene? I sure hope they are, if not then there are only a couple of things left.
Bras, Bros and Bratwurst.
It was a dark and stormy night...
I don't think any men where I worked - or where I go to church or went to school - showed any nipple, ever. Women, at times, and some women often. At the beach there is a lot more male nipple whenever they aren't wearing shirts. But otherwise, at the grocery store, walking in the park, going to the doctor's, I see female nipples much more often than male. Even at the convenience stores, because most have rules about shirts.
Women, of course, never notice men's physical appearance in any way related to sexuality.
Men throw on whatever happens to be uppermost in the clean-clothes pile and have done with it, full stop.
Or as Kris Kristofferson wrote in his song, his”cleanest dirty shirt.”
Department store manikins had nipples back in the 70s when women were abandoning their bras. Made me wonder why a woman would buy a sweater that couldn't even keep a manikin warm.
Lem - a friend of mine saw a guy blow-drying his genitals in the men's locker room. (thought - hmmmm - that's a good idea)
Just saying.
Males and females alike are allowed to go topless in Austin, Texas. In my 23 years here, I have not seen a single topless female outdoors. Although I am told they occur in certain parts of the park system and around the university, I feel no need to seek them for viewing.
The Overton window of fashion and acceptable public decorum has moved so past this issue the church ladies complaining against protruding nipples seem insane. The issue arises only in these dog days of summer as an easy filler for printed space.
To be faced with freed breasts, whether or not nipples are visible, is to be forced to confront deep-seated prejudices about all of this, and that is both upsetting and distracting to a lot of people
Oh, bullshit.
If you want to show off your kitties, I'll be happy to check them out.
If you want to complain about me checking out the kitties you've decided to show of, you can GFY.
If you're going to try to define me checking out the kitties that you decided to display as "workplace sexual harassment" on MY part (rather than it being on your part, since you're the one who decided to shove them in our faces), then again you can GFY.
Yes, there is a "prejudice" against selling sex at work. It's called "sexual harassment law". Decent human beings used to think that banning such things was the proper thing to do
"They took away the right to govern whether your body will go through pregnancy and childbirth...."
Really? When did we make rape legal?
Hell, when did we make birth control illegal? It's the GOP fighting to make birth control "over the counter", so you don't have to get someone else's permission to buy it, and the Dems who are fighting for forcing you to get that permission.
All the GOP has done is remove the Constitutional travesty that claimed women had the right to murder their babies.
If you are too fuckign pathetic to be able to take responsibility for your actions, then you probably should just be sterilized. Then you won't have to worry about "going through pregnancy and childbirth".
If you're not a complete fucking loser, then take responsibility for your own actions, just like men have always had to do.
(Roe didn't give men the right to demand that unwanted baby be aborted. They didn't have the right to chose to forgo 18 years of child support, either. So STFU with the whining, no one cares)
It is not, of course, your job to make other people comfortable or to help them sort through their own feelings about all of the above....
Absolutely!
Which means its' not MY problem to amen YOU comfortable. So if I want to stare at the kitties you put on display, that's perfectly fine. And if my action makes you uncomfortable, well "It is not, of course, my job to make you comfortable."
I'm perfectly happy handling those rules. If you are, too, then go for it.
Just remember: if' it's ok for you to make me uncomfortable, it's equally ok for me to make you uncomfortable
Greg the Class Traitor said...
"To be faced with freed breasts, whether or not nipples are visible, is to be forced to confront deep-seated prejudices about all of this, and that is both upsetting and distracting to a lot of people
Oh, bullshit.
If you want to show off your kitties, I'll be happy to check them out."
Like the sage said," If you've seen one, you want to see both of them."
I love these fundamental differences between men and women. I am amused when women fail to comprehend these differences.
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