Said former White House press secretary Sean Spicer quoted in "Fox News hosts are pushing Trump to join the Fox News GOP debate/The former president’s refusal to commit to the first debate of the 2024 cycle could make it a ratings wash-out. Aides say he’s unlikely to change his mind" (WaPo).
University of Maryland broadcast journalism professor Mark Feldstein says: “A Trump-less debate would make it easier for viewers to get a better sense of his rivals without Trump hogging all the airtime and could help one or more shine or even break out of the pack." That could work as a reason for Trump to want to participate. He should want to get in there and hog the attention so none of the others get any footing. But that's not very convincing. If he participates, they'll all try to "break out of the pack" by getting into a successful back-and-forth with him.
Posts
62 comments:
No buts, but by in your last sentence.
Trump should make his appearances - all appearances - at debates conditional on pedopeter showing up to all of his. In fact, the entire slate of candidates on both sides should make their participation in the boomerfiic tradition of televised debates conditional on his participation.
If the incumbent administration such as it is continues to play this game, then there will be no traditional processes period. Everyone must hit the defect button. If sleepy Joe and his handlers want to fuck around, they can find out.
If he debates, it's likely that an alternative (DeSantis?) could look sane in comparison, while holding similar conservative (sic) views - as in, what are you going to do, rather than tearing into what's wrong with everyone else.
Trump will be the talk of the debate, whether he is there or not. I generally think debate is good, but the news media has shown its bias over the decades at debates. Worse is the media enjoys covering topics somewhere outside the top 5 concerns of the voters. As JBP pointed out well, the debate is won and lost just by the questions chosen by the moderators. Now considering the dynamics of this debate; I don't see why Trump would attend beyond his own narcissism.
But!
isn't THE ENTIRE POINT of Politics, Ratings for the media? HOW is That to happen, without Trump?
Network debates are so last century.
Whoa! Not THE Mark Feldstein?
Who is she?
Just spitbaling here, but Trump may want a front runner to emerge from the first debate so he can limit his attacks to a single candidate. He can be more effective attacking a single person, and the rest of them are also rans already without him being an asshole towards them. Logic being he is fighting one war rather than several.
But the entire point of it is to see which of the other candidates- DeSantis, Ramaswamy, Haley, etc. can do sparring with Trump. Can they handle him? Can they stand out and shine with him also on the stage?
In other words, Trump's presence would be there as a barometer to show us if any of the others are up to it. If Trump is not there, we'll get preset lines, platitudes, talking points, and...not much that we couldn't already get from the candidates existing videos and websites.
Trump should just say out loud what we already know- Presidential debates are fucking stupid…
This debate is a clown show. An entertainment product. Except for DeSantis none of these clowns have the slightest chance. Most are known quantities and can't poll over 8 percent. Christie had been talking about how much "Fun" the debate will be.
So, the whole debate will just be them attacking Trump. And it can only be bad for Trump and good for Biden.
Even worse, Fox News will rig the debate by asking Leftwing anti-trump questions. With the Brett Baird or some other Fox moderator breaking in and debating Trump. I can just hear it now: "That' not true Mr. Trump....", "Excuse me Mr. Trump, but Mr. Biden actually said..."
Under no cicumstances should Trump agree to a debate without Tucker Carlson.
Trump’s attendance should be predicated on whether there is an upside for Trump, not whether there is an upside for Fox. That Fox is hosting should be a non-factor.
The 40% of Republicans who strongly support DT are immovable. Donnie, you can just stay in the basement and coast to defeat in the general election.
The plan was gang up on Trump- the entire field plus whoever moderated the debate. I think Trump probably is making a mistake in not showing up, but it isn't a major mistake- more like a missed opportunity.
I suspect the debate will still be all about Trump though- each candidate vying for time to show that they aren't like Trump, no way no how. Will any of the candidates stake out policy grounds without invoking this non-Trumpness? If so, that is the person to watch going forward.
broadcast journalism professor Mark Feldstein
in the world, in the whole wide world..
Has there Ever been something as pointless as a broadcast journalism professor?
Go to College, to learn how to do broadcast journalism? Seems like something you don't learn in school.
But WAIT!, there's MORE!! while broadcast journalism WAS an actual thing, back in the last century..
And stupid people thought they could learn in in "school".. In the immortal words, of SE Hinton:
That Was THEN, This Is NOW.
broadcast journalism? As if! Why not learn horseshoeing? or some other obsolete practice?
broadcast journalism! Good Grief! This is the year 2023!
so nice to have debate about debates and debaters >>> truly meta-meta-meta
Fox began its turn left with the 2016 debate and Megyn Kelly's question. Now it has little credibility with Trump voters.
The best thing for the country would be for Trump to (a) not debate and (b) drop out of the race entirely. A guy who praises political enemies because they say nice things about him and trashes political rivals theoretically on the same side because they're "disloyal" is someone who should be kept far from the levers of powers.
We spend too little time (as in none) discussing how Trump plans to staff his administration. Who among the small subset of people capable of running a cabinet position effectively would dare accept the offer, given (a) how they'll be treated by the rest of the world after the gig is over and (b) how Trump speaks about them if they dare disagree? All the roadkill he leaves makes him the choice of vultures everywhere.
Ampersand - agree.
Plus - the left love to hate Trump. They get off on it.
Debates? Who needs debates. For that matter who even needs to actually campaign, cabbage head has shown us the new way.
As Michael K correctly points out, Fox News is not what it was. The organization is morphing into CNN Light. Part of the reason for the change (decline) is that a younger generation of Murdochs has taken over.
But there is a Murdoch family tradition of dumbing down newspapers and news outlets. Old Man Rupert Murdoch bought the London newspaper The Daily Herald in the late 1950s. The Herald was a left leaning newspaper with a working class subscribership. Still it published long pieces on economics, politics, social issues.
Rupert Murdoch turned the paper into a tabloid "The Daily Sun" in the late 50s. Its prime feature was the Page 3 girl. The Page 3 girl was a comely young thing wearing not very much if anything at all.
The Murdoch boys are likely to emulate their father in his destruction of a respected news outlet.
If Trump had good debating skills - he would show up. He is good at name-calling - and his base seems to think that is some sort of cutting edge outsider chess jujitsu.
The entire process is for naught. The debates aren't debates and make no difference. The pros are entirely cynical about them--Kamala excoriated Joe but then was chosen VP. Unless the anti-Trumpers unite in time, the plurality of Trumpists will determine the primary outcome--they won't, so unless he's in prison, he's the man. With the election jiggered for Dem advantage even more and Trump having pissed off all but his groupies even more, the losing loser will lose even more yuuugely. On the tiny chance he makes it, he won't be able to govern, for reasons Cassandra noted. Not that it matters.
Hannitty is still on Trump-Train. Have Hanitty in charge of the debate. Trump could not say no.
Cassandra Lite -
ooo watch out. Thems fighting words to the loyal Trump man-club for boys.
Under no cicumstances should Trump agree to a debate without Tucker Carlson.
Fox cut off the limb it was sitting on. Tucker's interviews in Iowa were great but that long form would not work in a debate format. Nixon lost the first debate because he wouldn't wear makeup. People who heard it on the radio thought he had won.
Wait just a minute!
Nearly twenty comments in, and no one -- including Althouse -- has challenged the notion that Fox News has "snubbed" Donald Trump. What the absolute fuck?!? How has Fox News "snubbed" Trump?
Fox has given Trump softball exclusive interviews, town halls, and a non-stop flow of supportive gibberish from practically every one of its program hosts. Only a 24/7 Trump Campaign infomercial could be any more supportive of Trump.
"Snubbed" has an additional connotation. It also means 'to have ignored Trump; to have made sure Trump was not mentioned.' Bret Baier did an interview with Trump where Baier asked Trump a few obvious pertinent questions and of course it was embarrassing for Trump, just because Trump doesn't have a whole lot of cogent non-criminal thinking to offer to anyone. But that is hardly "snubbing" Trump. Hell, Fox is paying more than $700 million for having foolishly and perhaps maliciously shilled for the Trump Campaign with false claims about Dominion voting machines.
But by eliding those issues, then it all becomes a question of whether or not Trump should participate under the presumed circumstances. Where Trump has been "snubbed." Trump again is the hard-working gallant victim of some form of institutional hostility. And Trump self-proves himself to be right, by dodging the debate. He says he is a victim of unfairness, and so he is. His avoiding the debate based on his claim of Fox News unfairness somehow "proves" to TrumpWorld that indeed Trump is fighting for them against everything, including (now) Fox News. All of the questions are turned away from how Trump might say something incriminating while he is awaiting trial on multiple federal felony counts, and back to whether or not Trump is some sort of media victim.
Total delusion. Mass hysteria. American cultism.
THIS is the real definition of "Trump Derangement Syndrome."
Oh well. It's not a problem for me. Part of me wants Trump to be the nominee so that we can beat him again. Little substantive information seeps into TrumpWorld brains. Losing repeatedly might just be something that seeps in. And if more indictments make Trump more of a lock on a nomination, all the better. Effectively a public national referendum on Trumpist pathologies.
I made this same point about early debates several days ago. The obvious strategy always works against the frontrunner. The smart play is to allow the hopeless hopefuls to wither in early debates, then concentrate against your true rival later on.
The obvious downside is the empty chair dynamic -- "My opponent who's not here (insert peanut gallery giggles) is scared of my questions..." However, Trump's strength is the persecution engendered by TDS. A GOP hopeless hopeful who plays the empty chair gambit risks going from low double-digit to single-digit footnote status. We'll see, but I predict the first Trump-less debate will be surprising. The scum-sucking j-school invertebrates will try to attack Trump through their questions, but the candidates won't rise to that rancid bait. They'll avoid such loaded questions by throwing them back with gut-slamming anti-press insults like "Before I answer, please tell the American People how much Joe Biden paid you to cover up the Hunter laptop revelations". In 2024, the Republican opposition research will be directed at Jake Tapper, Ashley Parker, and Mikey Shear because the only institution more despised than the Biden administration is the formerly-mainstream press.
Occam's Razor says this is just Trump telling Fox to fuck itself. No more complex strategy than that.
"Will any of the candidates stake out policy grounds without invoking this non-Trumpness? If so, that is the person to watch going forward."
------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm. I have a hunch that will be Vivek.
cassandra lite: "The best thing for the country would be for Trump to (a) not debate and (b) drop out of the race entirely. A guy who praises political enemies because they say nice things about him and trashes political rivals theoretically on the same side because they're "disloyal" is someone who should be kept far from the levers of powers."
Sounds like you'll have a very easy time convincing republican base voters to go along with you in choosing someone other than Trump.
Its so straightforward the GOPe should cease their collaboration with dems/left to lawfare Trump out of the race.
Piece of cake.
Trump has two jobs: secure the GOP nomination between now and next summer, and then win 270 (or more) electoral votes in November 2024. He has made the political calculation that participating in the debate on Fox helps him achieve neither goal, and so he has made the pragmatic choice. I don’t much respect his overall political acumen, but in this case I suspect he’s right.
Tough luck for Fox.
2024 is going to be a disaster. Signing on with Trump is signing on for a suicide mission. There aren't enough supporters. Independents hate him, and those who don't likely don't have the nerve to vote for him.
And he's old. He's still masculine and virile, but he is old. This country should not be run by old men, if you'll excuse the oblique Yeats reference.
DeSantis is young, good-looking, former military, conservative, and he's the chief executive of one of the only states that's working right now.
I was happy and proud to vote for Trump in the last election, and if he's the nominee this time, I'll vote for him again. But I want to win, and Trump is no longer the bulwark against the left he used to be.
DeSantis is the answer. Most Republican voters refuse to open their eyes.
Ampersand: "The 40% of Republicans who strongly support DT are immovable."
The 40%+ that support Trump are oddly unmoved by the arguments of the McConnellites/Ryans/globalists who despise the GOP base and betray that base every 15 minutes.
Yes indeed. Its all so very very strange and inexplicable....those darn "unmovable" Trump voters. Why wont those stupid voters just accept that their "betters" know better and shut up and do what they are told?
Btw, how much more for Ukraine next month?
Exit observation: its probably safer for the republican House to NOT pass Articles of Impeachment against Biden because once those Articles make it to the Senate there would be at least a 50% chance the republican senators would work with the dems to switch Biden's name to Trump and vote to impeach....and a 75% chance Roberts would ensure that action "stuck" after a SC review.
Trump just needs to put out an announcement that, "When I have a serious challenger, then I'll consider a one-on-one debate." Let the rest fight over who will be the one to face him.
In other words, Trump's presence would be there as a barometer to show us if any of the others are up to it. If Trump is not there, we'll get preset lines, platitudes, talking points, and...not much that we couldn't already get from the candidates existing videos and websites.
Which in itself is useful. Without Trump, every other candidate would have the opportunity to appear authentic and break out of the constraints of preset lines, platitudes, etc. If they cannot, then we have no reason to believe that they would in a general election.
Cassandra lite: "We spend too little time (as in none) discussing how Trump plans to staff his administration."
We spend too little time discussing other questions as well:
- Who are DeSantis' big money backers and what policies do they support? (Spoiler: nothing the base supports)
- If that's the case, how could DeSantis ever deliver for the base if none of his big backers support those policies?
- Why isnt DeSantis getting a bigger share of the non-Trump vote? Wasn't he supposed to be the obvious run-away-with-it alternative option?
- A big selling point for DeSantis was his "competence" in running things, unlike that horrific Deplorable-lovin' Trump...so why is the DeSantis campaign continuously being caught flat-footed, not managing cash well and revamping strategy again?
- Does the DeSantis congressional voting record provide clues as to what he really believes and would do as President...or is the argument now thst DeSantis has learned and would no longer support those Ryan-esque positions?
This game can be played with all the candidates and, quite frankly, its all fair since politics ain't beanbag.
rcocean: "Under no cicumstances should Trump agree to a debate without Tucker Carlson."
Agreed.
Temujin: "But the entire point of it is to see which of the other candidates- DeSantis, Ramaswamy, Haley, etc. can do sparring with Trump. Can they handle him? Can they stand out and shine with him also on the stage?"
Disagree. The entire point is to kill off the other candidates campaigns. Your take on this provides zero value/no upside to the Trump campaign participating on this very much non-neutral ground.
Were the Democratic debates in 1984 dominated by questions about Carter? Of course not. The debates should just focus on Biden and his inherent stupidity. One question about Trump is more than enough, then move on.
"DeSantis is the answer. Most Republican voters refuse to open their eyes."
The more I see and hear from DeSantis the less I think he is the best option beyond Trump.
We need a tough guy, yes, but appearances matter (a lot) and he needs to work on his because he needs people to like him on a personal level as well as agree with his policy positions if he wants to win the general election.
And will somebody tell him to get rid of that near constant scowl and the annoying head-bob tic when responding to questions (once you see it you'll understand). He has an attractive smile and should deploy it more often.
Right now, I can't say that I really like the guy. He seems to be a bit of a Debbie Downer as opposed to the "happy warrior" he's trying to beat for the nomination.
If none of these putative candidates have managed to distinguish themselves to date, with the empty political canvas that has been available to them for their vision, then why on earth would I be paying any attention to them in an artificially-contrived shark tank? DeSantis is the only reasonably well-known candidate aside from Trump, and he is proving to be a solidly Establishment product. I've had enough of Banana Republicans, thank you, and it would appear that I have plenty of company, according to any trustworthy polling. But the Establishment refuses to take instruction. Whoever secures the Republican candidacy would probably get my vote. I won't be wasting any time on beauty contests though.
What is more important is to discover where the piles of money for old Gimme-Graft Joe are coming from. They're being funneled into Dark Money PACs by the millions, foreign and domestic, but our investigative stalwarts, so-called, like Fox, ho-ho-ho, just can't seem to pull on that thread.
"broadcast journalism? As if! Why not learn horseshoeing? or some other obsolete practice?"
The number of horses in the United States totals 7.2 million, according to the latest data available.
Source: 2016 survey data published by the American Horse Council
Given that most horses have four hooves, that's a lot of horseshoeing.
Not all candidates in the alleged debate will hammer Trump. Vivek being one that will not.
Trump will decide after J6 indictment based on poll numbers at that time.
"DeSantis is young, good-looking, former military, conservative, and he's the chief executive of one of the only states that's working right now."
Sounds like he'll make a terrific Veep.
C'mon, we all remember that Kamala Harris was one of several candidates "challengine" Joe Biden back in 2020, right? The younger "rivals" to the heir-presumptive must be considered in general to be hoping for the stepping-stone toward later advancement. (The older rivals are taking their one last desparate shot...) Sometimes, it almost works. Remember Al Gore? Gore just didn't quite have Florida "fortified" in 2000 as well as modern Democratic electorial machines are now able to manage.
We also see that putting a nullity -- Quayle,Harris, Pence -- doesn't really help over the longer run.
Don/Ron, 2024?
Seems pretty obvious the smart move is not to participate. Nobody will watch and thus no risk someone’s performance will wow the nonexistent viewer.
DeSantis is the answer. Most Republican voters refuse to open their eyes.
@cfkane1701, Trump’s voters, some of whom think of themselves nominally as Democrats or Independents, are mostly focused on economic issues. DeSantis will not pry any of them away from Trump unless and until he credibly addresses economic issues. Do not let the 3:2 drubbing he gave Charlie Crist cause you to overestimate Ron DeSantis because Crust’s campaign was a textbook example of how to piss off his voters. I’m not calling DeSantis a bad candidate, but being a blank slate on how to fix the current and projected future problems of Bidenomics is not going to cut it.
cfkane1701: "And he's old. He's still masculine and virile, but he is old. This country should not be run by old men, if you'll excuse the oblique Yeats reference."
You very skillfully managed to avoid any mention of policy in your post.
That's quite the gap in your DeSantis advocacy pitch.
"Mr. DeSantis has privately forecast that the now twice-indicted Mr. Trump would struggle as his legal troubles mounted, but the governor continues to poll in a distant second place nationally."--New York Times today
"A ‘Leaner-Meaner’ DeSantis Campaign Faces a Reboot and a Reckoning"
Is the New York Times lying about DeSantis giving assurances, in private to insiders and funders, regarding his expectation that the dem/GOPe lawfare crew would bring Trump down?
Possibly. Maybe even probably.
But has DeSantis denied saying this privately?
Not exactly a rousing campaign theme if true. DeSantis to the GOP base: Vote For Me Once Your Enemies Corruptly Remove Your Preferred Candidate!
Lets hope, and sincerely so, that DeSantis is not actively chatting with parties connected to the lawfare abuse of Trump....because that would permanently end any fiture DeSantis political career.
As a Floridian I'm quite happy with DeSantis as my governor. If Trump wins the nomination he should pick Vivek as his running mate and make DeSantis Attorney General or FBI director and if a Supreme Court opening arises nominated Ted Cruz. Vivek is extremely smart with great positions and could be a real asset to Trump. Trump also needs to make nice with all of the Republican governors so he can poach a number of their cabinet offices or some them to run his cabinet and the numerous woke department and agencies. Otherwise he will get the usual worthless beltway Republicans. Trump needs to get the notion into his head that the best revenge for him isn't just winning but winning with as many committed non beltway Republicans as possible. Right now according to a recent poll Trump beats Biden. As for showing on debate, only on Trump's terms as noted above or on another network such as OAN or Newsmax. The Murdochs need a humiliation and pain for their arrogance and foolishness.
Lets hope, and sincerely so, that DeSantis is not actively chatting with parties connected to the lawfare abuse of Trump....because that would permanently end any fiture DeSantis political career.
I doubt that he's actively chatting, but I wouldn't be surprised if his advisors and big donors have all been feeding him that line of BS. He was hoping to wait on the sidelines until he could be handed the nomination to the acclaim of the the party, with Trump safely out of the way.
DeSantis is young, good-looking, former military, conservative, and he's the chief executive of one of the only states that's working right now.
Ah, the resume argument. It doesn't work, but the GOP keeps going back to it, because they have nothing else. They're the chubby dude who has a good job, goes to church regularly, and wonders why he can't get a date on a Friday night, when he clearly is a good catch for a relationship.
Blogger Chuck said...
Wait just a minute!
Nearly twenty comments in, and no one -- including Althouse -- has challenged the notion that Fox News has "snubbed" Donald Trump. What the absolute fuck?!? How has Fox News "snubbed" Trump?
Fox has given Trump softball exclusive interviews, town halls, and a non-stop flow of supportive gibberish from practically every one of its program hosts. Only a 24/7 Trump Campaign infomercial could be any more supportive of Trump.
Chuck tries to pretend Fox News is the same it was with Roger Ailes.
Would Ailes have fired their #1 star just to show they could ? Bill O'Reilly had gotten obnoxious and there were credible accusation of sexual harrassment.
Fox is trying to slip left without their audience noticing. Lachlan Murdoch lives in LA and he wants to get invited to those cocktail parties. That witch at Fox keeps threatening people like Judge Jeannine and Maria Bartiromo with firing if they don't tow the line. That early call in AZ in 2020 might have been a fluke but more is happening.
They're running for Vice-president. Trump sits at home and thinks who to pick.
A scenario.
After Biden's bribery problems finally come out in a Moscow paper in last dich effort by Putin to win the Ukraine special op by discrediting Biden, Trump wins. Then some kangaroo jury finds him guilty of a felony. But he pardons himself. Or does the Vice-president do it while the President is temporarily incapacitated?
Never get into a fight with an attention hog. Only the hog enjoys the brawl, and you end up covered in hog crap.
Narayanan said...
so nice to have debate about debates and debaters >>> truly meta-meta-meta
--
Like RFKjr being facing censorship in a censorship hearing.
Drago,
Put a link with the NYT quote.
Michael K said...
Chuck tries to pretend Fox News is the same as it was with Roger Ailes.
Would Ailes have fired their #1 star just to show they could? Bill O'Reilly had gotten obnoxious and there were credible accusations of sexual harassment.
How soon we forget! In 2016, a sexual harassment lawsuit brought against Ailes by former Fox journalist Gretchen Carlson kickstarted an internal investigation at the news network and, eventually, a wave of sexual harassment claims against Ailes. Megyn Kelly was among the women to report experiencing harassment at the hands of the network head. In total, more than 20 women accused old man Ailes, and he was forced to resign from his position in July of that year. Candidate Trump made sure that Fox got rid of Megyn after he won the election because she was singing out of tune.
Michael K: "Chuck tries to pretend Fox News is the same it was with Roger Ailes."
Remember, LLR-democratical and Violent Homosexual Rage Rape Fantasist Chuck has explicitly stated his only reasons for posting at Althouse blog is to smear conservatives and Trump as well as attempt to drive a wedge between Althouse and her readers.
LLR-democratical Chuck's pathetic, and probably alcohol induced, missive above is a perfect example of Chuck's pro-democrat mission.
gadfly. You're becoming a non sequitur.
I want Donnie Dumpster to participate in this debate, under the following conditions:
He is not on stage with the other candidates; he is dressed in an orange prison jumpsuit, shackled, and the camera shows the bars of his jail cell very clearly. Behind him, clearly visible, is a poster summarizing all of the criminal charges pending against him. It would be a nice touch to have him in a filthy cell with large cockroaches scurrying back and forth, but that would probably be over the top. Maybe some of my smaller Skaven(rat) minions could be bribed into showing up and squeaking into the microphone...LoL
I'm opposed to Trump for several reasons: his support for the bumpstock ban and other gun control measures, his moving the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem in Occupied Palestine, and his instigation of the J6 protests. There's lots of other reasons to despise this "Spherical SOB: an SOB any way that you look at him(writer and humorist H Allen Smith(Rhubarb, Low Man on a Totem Pole)" but this will do.
It won't make a difference, though, no matter who wins the GOP nod. There is no voting our way out of this mess; the Plague Nun and I no longer vote in any election here in SW Ohio. We no longer give to candidates, volunteer our time, or allow political signs on our property. Several local pols have asked us to support them, and they are shocked when we tell them that there is no such thing as an "honest politician."
Post a Comment