I have this "problem" too, and I don't even think it's a problem. People who throw the name of their interlocutor into the conversation seem conniving and insincere. When I'm reading comments, for example, if I see "Ann" added to whatever it is they're saying, I get suspicious — What bullshit is this?
I think it has to do with way parents address children using their name, so with experience as a child and, perhaps, as a parent, we come to feel that to say the name of the person you're talking to is to adopt the parental role and to cast the other person as the child.
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86 comments:
I don’t know anyone that is reasonably adaptable to society that has trouble using names
How many people are mentally ill?
Seriously?
Never considered this. I was always under the impression that the person I was speaking with knew their own name.
Althouse = She Who Cannot Be Named
Huh??? When I was training for a job in a service industry one of the first things we were taught was to call people by their name. I have paid attention to that advice since then and have noticed I like to hear my name.
I don't avoid using someone's name when talking to them, i just don't because it would feel unnatural. But prof., I do use names in forums like this if i am addressing my comment at someone specific. That feels natural.
The use of the vocative is a Southern thing. I had a boss who always used it, and I was very startled at first. My emotional reaction wasn't suspicion, but insecurity. I felt called out. But really he was just being personal. We were sharing a moment, a reflection of ideas.
I just call everyone "Hey, YOu". It works for me.
Totally. I associate being called by my name with my parents calling me, usually for something not good.
I especially hate a spouse/partner calling my name when we are the only two people in the house.
And there is also the phenomenon you mentioned of salespeople throwing your name into their patter. For me it has the opposite of their intended effect.
Thanks, Prof - sometimes I think I’m the only one!
JSM
Growing up:
"Yancey......." Probably my parents wanted me to do something I was supposed to do, but hadn't done.
"Yancey David" Probably my parents didn't want me to do something I was doing.
"Yancey David Ward" Uh oh!
I use people's name when talking in group of more than two, but it is always followed by a question, not a simple statement. Seriously, how do you ask a question in such a group without identifying who you are asking in such a situation, Ann?
The other night my wife and I decided to watch A Summer Place on TCM, for old-time kitsch's sake. Once Sandra Dee and Troy Donahue got together, we began laughing at how often she said his name, Johnny, in nearly every line of dialogue. And at a certain point it reached critical Chinese-water-torture mass, and was all we could hear. Like that old Far Side cartoon What We Say to Dogs v. What They Hear: "blah blah Johnny blah blah blah blah Johnny blah blah blah Johnny..."
I have this "problem" too, and I don't even think it's a problem.
Ann, you have the right idea. It is an odd problem, but if it's not a problem, it's just the manner in which a person speaks. People may be overthinking it.
Some of the commenters on Reddit work in situations where it is apparently necessary, and they can't bring themselves to get over the hump. That is a problem, but it seems like one that is easily solved with a little practice.
Do people go to business/social dinners? You don’t say “hey you” pass the bread. You say “hey Gator” pass the bread. Not using proper names is not normal behavior. This to me seems like evidence of anti-social behavior.
I wonder- is it a case, sometimes, that one isn't 100% sure of the name?
“Say my name.”
Or don’t.
In a situation where I have to identify the person, I don't have trouble saying the name. Obviously, I called on students in law school classes for decades. When there's a specific need to address one person within a group, the disinclination is gone. It's not like a strange taboo. It's the unnecessary sprinkling of names into conversation that seems off. As mentioned above, salespeople are taught to do it. Then there's the Dale Carnegie thing of even naming the person's family members.
What I hate is when people address me by name and they have the wrong guy. “Here you go, Larry. You see what happens, Larry? Do you see what happens, Larry, when you…”
To Yancey Ward (using the name) one of my favorite Seinfeld moments when Jerry forgot a name.......Mulva?
Ann is "suspicious" because it's not your frickin' name around here. It's Althouse, you're Althouse, sometimes you're Meadhouse. But you haven't been Ann in the 20 years of this blog (or whatever we're up to).
My Mom is an Ann, too. To me she's Mom and you're Althouse. But to damn Gmail -- I know it's you, Blogger, you AI bastard -- it's listed as Ann Althouse and Ann Carmichael. That's why one time, this was a couple of years ago I think, I accidentally sent an Althouse e-mail to Mom.
Mom was like, "huh?"
I was like, "Oh shit, wrong Ann."
I'm just blessed that I don't know any hot strippers named Ann. That's an e-mail accident waiting to happen right there. Thanks a lot, Blogger, you alphabetical shit-fuck.
I am now thankful to have found out that I'm not the only person who doesn't say the person's name while I am talking to them face to face. I will say a person's name when we're in a group and I want to get said person's attention. And...there are times when I can't remember names of people I don't see very often.
It's all situationally dependent. Even though we are the only two people in the house, I often call my wife by name to get her attention before beginning a discussion. It helps when hearing isn't as good as it once was.
In my gaming guild we play together while chatting on headset. We must call out names because there's no other way to identify people. However, we all use gamer names. It's wonderful and strange to learn to associate myself with a name I created.
BTW, the disinclination to use a person's given name when in face-to-face or in most group settings highlights the problems that can arise now that folks are suddenly deciding that their singular pronoun is "THEY."
Hey you.
That seems very rude. Doesn't work.
"When I'm reading comments, for example, if I see "Ann" added to whatever it is they're saying, I get suspicious — What bullshit is this? "
I guess the rule is to never direct a comment to our hostess, but always speak of her in the third person, despite the fact she is in the room. Also seems rude.
Well, her house, her rules.
The really suspicious "Ann" is when they stick an "e" on the end of it.
Who do you think you are, Anne, the queen of England?!
When I was little my Mom used to tell me Ann stories. There were a lot of Anns back then, apparently. And nobody knew how to spell it. That's because there were all these Anns named Anne. So, at least in my Mom's Ann community, they always asked the question...
"Are you plain Ann or fancy Anne?"
That's a question that works a lot better in text than it does in oral communication.
Anyway, one time Mom asked another Ann, "Are you plain Ann or fancy Anne?" And she said, "Oh, I'm just plain Ann." Which really screwed the pooch because she was actually fancy Anne. She just didn't know she was fancy.
My Mom thought that was hilarious. I didn't think it was hilarious, but it stuck in my brain for some damn reason.
I guess it's funny that the Anns sometimes have trouble spelling a 3-letter word!
You know what you are, Anne? You're a four-letter word, that's what you are.
No one calls me by my first name, not even my family.
"Ann is "suspicious" because it's not your frickin' name around here. It's Althouse, you're Althouse, sometimes you're Meadhouse. But you haven't been Ann in the 20 years of this blog (or whatever we're up to)."
I have said repeatedly that I prefer to be called Althouse and some people here know and follow that, but not everyone does — all the more reason why it annoys me to be addressed as Ann.
Ann just isn't much of a name. More of a syllable. That's why it's so often used as a middle name. Often the response to hearing my name is: "That's MY middle name." I think (and sometimes even say), yeah, that's everybody's middle name.
I really could have solved the problem of the extreme minimalism of my first name by always using my middle name, thus having the equivalent of a 3 syllable middle name. Instead of wishing I'd received some sort of 3-syllable name like Allison or Agatha, I'd just always have been Ann Adair. But I was over 50 years old before that occurred to me. Opportunity missed!
It's funny that you equate Ann with bullshit...
I find myself using proper names excessively to avoid pronoun trouble...
"How are you today, Mrs. Cleaver?"
"You don't have to call me darlin'..darlin'. You don't even call me by my name."
Of course, I no longer refer to Althouse as "Ann," per her expressed wishes in that regard.
But I recall -- and Althouse no doubt will as well -- being questioned by her why I was regularly using her name on a particular comments page. In fact, I somewhat frequently use her name, for the most obvious of reasons; it is because, on a comments page with dozens of participants, I am directing a comment or a question to her. I do that unapologetically, inasmuch as I am sticking to the subject(s) of and issues related to that blog post, of which she is the author/editor. (And in my case, I often find myself in the position of wanting to direct a comment or question to Althouse exclusively, or at least not directed to some of her other commenters.)
I'm really surprised that more commenters don't do it; I think that many of the better comments here are those that intelligently ask Althouse about the substance of a blog post. Or direct Althouse specifically to something else she has written in the context of that particular post.
Sorry; not sorry.
Sales training directs you to refer to the person/people by name. It is supposed to exhibit you care enough to learn their name and treat them as individual persons, with unique concerns. Eye contact, use their name and individual traits. Never say, 'everyone likes XXX'. It puts your prospect in a big pool, instead of understanding the unique circumstances. Of course you great everyone by name.
btw; I quite like Althouse's choice of using "Althouse." I get it; and I like it.
Every "Ann" I have ever known was either an "Anna" or "Annette". Never have known a simple "Ann".
If a girl used my name more than was strictly necessary, I always took that as a sign that she liked me a little more than just as a friend, and so she liked saying my name. This is because if I had a thing for a girl, I always liked saying her name. You can judge this by the number of popular songs over the decades that feature a name heavily, Family Guy did a bit on it once.
I saw a movie where Warren Beatty had the annonying name of "Berry-Berry" which everyone insisted on calling him, constantly.
Perhaps you could demand to be called Ann-Ann.
You are Althouse.
Meade is Meade.
Seems simple. I don't know you well enough to call you by your first name.
Call me Amadeus.
I have a very distinguished friend who goes by Ann Dudley. Now I know why.
"When I'm reading comments, for example, if I see "Ann" added to whatever it is they're saying, I get suspicious — What bullshit is this?"
Dave Begley hardest hit.
I never use people's names when speaking to them, and the only pronoun I use is "you" (which is another reason why the "him" "her" thing is absurd).
Of course, there are a lot of people who are essentially "Mulva" to me, if you catch my drift. So that's part of it. But even when I can remember their names, I don't often say them when speaking to them.
"Do you see what happens, Larry, when you…"
Find a stranger in the Alps? Feed a stoner scrambled eggs?
Speaking of names, I actually am a Larry. Larrys in fiction have a somewhat checkered reputation: Leisure Suit Larry, Larry the Cucumber, the Larry with the Darryl brothers...
I have this "issue" as well where I rarely address someone using their name. I make sure I have their attention and talk directly too them. It is something I actively avoid doing.
It has always been something that I found awkward but I have not found a reason to change. Of course this is one of many reasons I would have no success in sales.
There is a manner of using a person's name as a form of emphasis. "Ethel, that's a gun in the gentleman's hand." It implies that the person is not paying sufficient attention. Not, I suppose, particularly respectful.
Where else on the web does one encounter dialog like this?
"I especially hate a spouse/partner calling my name when we are the only two people in the house."
How is that supposed to work, then?
He would answer to "Hi!" or to any loud cry
Such as "Fry me!" or "Fritter my wig!"
To "What-you-may-call-um!" or "What-was-his-name!"
But especially "Thing-um-a-jig!"
Now I have a connection in my head between Althouse and "Red" Adair.
Why is it that last names often sound more bad-ass than first names?
Just spit-balling, but maybe last names are more serious because they go back throughout history. While first names are just shit the parents made up.
If it's obvious who I'm speaking with, why use their name? That's just extra words.
If I'm in a group, of course I'll use their name. Clarity!
Ann Ann bo-bann
Bonana-fanna fo-fann
Fee fi mo-mann
Ann!
The use of the vocative is a Southern thing. I had a boss who always used it, and I was very startled at first. My emotional reaction wasn't suspicion, but insecurity. I felt called out. But really he was just being personal. We were sharing a moment, a reflection of ideas.
1. I had to google "vocative" because I never heard that word before.
2. I'm from the South and I try to remember the names of people.
3. I was impressed that Donald Trump wants to know the names of janitors and people like that (janitors vote).
4. Christians are taught to love our enemies and love strangers, and you can't love people without finding out their names.
5. They've done scientific studies that show that people are able to hear their own name. Babies know their name. Dogs know their name. Names are pretty basic to identity. If somebody doesn't know your name, they don't know you.
6. On the Althouse blog, I've adopted the name Saint Croix, so lots of people know me by that name. If I were to adopt some other name, nobody would know me.
7. I adopted the name Saint Croix 25 years ago, on the Motley Fool message boards, because I wanted to get rich and retire in the Virgin Islands. I picked Saint Croix because it sounded cooler than "Saint John" or "Saint Thomas." I continued to use the name on the internet over the next couple of decades.
8. I was a little freaked out to discover that Saint Croix means "Holy Spirit." That's because any blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. (Very good discussion here of what is meant by an unpardonable sin). I later discovered that "Saint Croix" actually means "Holy Cross," which is arguably different than "Holy Spirit."
9. I'm no longer freaked out to use the name Saint Croix.
This post surprises me. When I am dealing with nametagged people who are performing some sort of function that involves a service to me, I always felt that using their name was a way of acknowledging their individual worth. It's a gesture toward the fact that they are more than the somewhat impersonal function that they are performing. It's also a way to politely suggest that I am more than a fungible recipient of their service.
When I am talking to people either in person or especially over the phone, the fact that they call me by my name is a way for them to say, "I'm paying attention and I know this is you that I'm talking to. I'm not just filling out a form. This is a human interaction between specific people and I respect your individuality." We are more than machines exchanging data.
LLR-democratical and Violent Homosexual Rage Rape Fantasist Chuck: "Of course, I no longer refer to Althouse as "Ann," per her expressed wishes in that regard."
What are your thoughts about adhering to, say, a banning from Althouse blog per her (Althouse) "expressed wishes in that regard"?
I think it has to do with way parents address children using their name, so with experience as a child and, perhaps, as a parent, we come to feel that to say the name of the person you're talking to is to adopt the parental role and to cast the other person as the child.
That's a rather insane perspective.
We use your name, Prof Althouse, to let you know we are addressing you. So that if you're just letting your eyes glaze over at people bickering back and forth, your attention might be caught by letting you know this comment is directly addressing something you said.
Most people really like hearing their names. they like the acknowledgment of their existence, their relevance.
To see that acknowledgment as some sort of power play is, in fact, a problem. On your part
Speak the name Eddie Haskell, and he appears.
Using someone's name when speaking to them face to face outside of a group context just seems weird. If you're in a work setting, standing a few feet away and you're trying to alert a person that you wish to speak to them, that's one thing. You don't want to surprise them. After that it's unnecessary and contrived.
As for retail workers using my first name, I truly dislike it. It implies a level of familiarity that doesn't exist. It falls in the same category as small children addressing their elders by first name without having been given leave to do so. But I have a complicated last name, so I've just resigned myself to being addressed by my first name.
I've noticed that Filipinos in service industry positions often append "Miss" to a woman's first name when addressing them. That works. It's simple and yet still implies distance in the relationship.
MadisonMan said...
If it's obvious who I'm speaking with, why use their name?
Well, among other things, it shows you actually remember their name.
As a lot of people get insulted when you don't bother to remember their name, and just about everyone takes it as "you don't think I'm worth your time / effort", it's a general social nicety to at least occasionally address people by name.
And if there's someone there who HAS forgotten the person's name, that someone will really appreciate it when you remind them of the name in a way that isn't socially embarrassing
Why would you need to overcome that? It's strange to address someone by name when you're in conversation with them.
If someone uses my name when we're already talking my assumption is that the person once had a job in sales.
It is not an uncommon occurrence in stories of myth and the supernatural that knowing a being's true name gives a person leverage or power over that being. Maybe that reflects something about human emotion and the power of names.
I tend to avoid using names as well. Switching from an unnamed "Hey" to a person's name feels like an escalation or an increase in attention demanded in a conversation. And while I wouldn't categorize the mere use of a person's name as aggressive, I like to keep conversations on the more easy-going side of the spectrum.
How are you today, Ann?
"NOOO!!! You don't have to call me Ann! My name is Ann Adair Althouse. Now you can call me Althouse, or you can call me A, or you can call me Anna, or you can call me Missy, or you can call me Annie, or you can call me Teach; now you can call me Ann A, or you can call me AA, or you can call me AAA, or you can call me AnnAA. . . but you doesn't hasta call me Althouse!"
Linguistics minor speaking here. It's always subtle, and internet communication is a mess of misunderstanding. Emojis are a miserable but understandable attempt to correct for how easy it is to misunderstand tone in text, email, comment, or post. Try not to apply a general rule, (Ann,) though I know what you mean about the use of the first name to talk down to someone or pretend to a familiarity that is not warranted.
But sometimes it's a good thing. An ex-girlfriend at a reunion used my first name to chide me about womething I was saying about my wife in humor. But she was absolutely right.
Growing up, we usually referred to people as Mets fans or Yankees fans. Now I have the not unhappy problem of being a Mets then Braves fan and will switch hit after eliminations.
But don't call me cis.
I started reading blogs quite late and sometimes forget or don't know the rules. It's odd to make a statement to a stranger without affixing a closing salutation. My favorite: "In Disappointment."
"You don't have to call me Johnson! My name is Raymond J. Johnson Jr. Now you can call me Ray, or you can call me J, or you can call me Johnny, or you can call me Sonny, or you can call me Junie, or you can call me Junior; now you can call me Ray J, or you can call me RJ, or you can call me RJJ, or you can call me RJJ Jr. . . but you doesn't hasta call me Johnson!"
“Are you plain Ann or fancy Anne?"
“You know what you are, Anne? You're a four-letter word, that's what you are.”
I’m one of those people who used Anne as one of my daughter’s middle name. I didn’t consider it fancy, just thought it looked better with her first name. By the time I had my third daughter, we picked the name of my mother, her first name was the name of many grandmothers, great, great great, great great great, all the way back to the early 1600’s.
Some commenter a couple weeks back accused me of calling Althouse, Ann, which I’ve never done in all the 11 years I’ve commented here.
In my Catholic nursing school, the instructors mostly called us by our last names, most often with a Miss, Ms, Mrs, or Mr. The ones who had served in the military just barked out the our last names sans polite prefix.
She Who Cannot Be Named
We all know who that is.
Unless it's someone else.
Replying to R C Bellaire, there are people so introverted they can’t order food either in a sit down restaurant or at takeaway. The younger brother of my high school best friend was this way. I’m no psychiatrist but I have heard there are sessions you can take to try to fix it. Didn’t know how ubiquitous it was.
I’m uncomfortable doing it when I talking to just one person, it would feel odd to use their name when who else would I be speaking to??
But I agree with Red, Red Rose: it’s a southern thing.
@SaintCroix I was curious what your link would say about the sin against the Holy Spirit. I really only know the Adventist answer, which always seemed very sensible to me. And that's what I found at your link. Hmm, I thought, I wonder who Bibleinfo.com actually is. It's...The Voice of Prophecy. Well, that explains it. :-)
Unless I'm addressing my immediate family (dad mom), I can't ever seem to use anyone's name.
I will say, it does strike as odd for a child, even an adult child, to use a parent's first name when addressing them. Unless I'm misinterpreting their statement and by using their name he meant "Mom" and "Dad".
Russia Collusion Truther and Hillary/FBI Hoax Dossier Dead Ender Inga: "Some commenter a couple weeks back accused me of calling Althouse, Ann, which I’ve never done in all the 11 years I’ve commented here."
I must say that in all the years I've been participating on this blog, I would have to agree that Inga has never called Althouse "Ann".
Inga did call Althouse a "b****", but never "Ann".
Ann Althouse: "Speak the name Eddie Haskell, and he appears."
Talk of the Devil, and he's presently at your elbow.
Lets just hope He Who Should Not Be Named doesn't vomit up another of his bizarre violent homosexual rage rape sexual missives nor his oddly "child-centric", if you know what I mean, obsessive posts.
Note: He Who Should Not Be Named has been a long time supporter of the Lincoln Pedophile Project and when that crew of lunatic psychos which includes George Conway, Ric Wilson, Steve Schmidt, Stuart Smalley...er...Stevens and John Weaver exposed themselves (all puns intended), He Who Should Not Be Named doubled and tripled down on his public support for them.
Related note: He Who Should Not Be Named has also recently come out in full favor of surrendering to the radical Trans agenda across the board, including drag shows in school and the grooming behavior of many within the radical trans groups. This naturally follows the complete collapse of David French's et al faux "conservatism" and complete embrace of the far left agenda in all cultural policy questions.
I'm sure all these data points are entirely coincidental and certainly do not betray any over arching pro-democratical pattern or purpose in posting at Althouse blog as a quite exposed Pretend "Principled" "True Conservative".
He Who Should Not Be Named: "btw; I quite like Althouse's choice of using "Althouse." I get it; and I like it."
Ugh. Total creepy cringe.
Under Diversity, Equity, Inclusion (DEI) it's hey blackie or hey person of color or hey albino in rainbow exclusion or hey baby... butterfly.
The Moscow Trained Propagandist thinks he’s scoring points with Althouse by being a repetitive tattletale, sort of like a creepy Eddie Haskell.
“Hey Ms.Althouse, Inga once called you a bitch!”
I think part of my reluctance to use names is that people so often get mine wrong - I'll introduce myself as Mary Beth but then they will just call me Mary. It seems pretty simple to me, but people frequently get it wrong. That makes me concerned that I will get someone else's name wrong. It's not rational, but it made me avoid names unless necessary for much of my life. I've gotten better as I've gotten older. I shouldn't avoid things just because some people can't listen or are dumb as rocks.
When people address me by name (whether they get it right or not), it seems weird, like they are trying to sell me something or they subscribe to r/PsychologicalTricks and read that this will make people like them. Whatever the reason, it often feels manipulative if it's someone I've just met.
Russia Collusion Truther and Hillary/FBI Hoax Dossier Dead Ender Inga: "The Moscow Trained Propagandist thinks he’s scoring points with Althouse by being a repetitive tattletale, sort of like a creepy Eddie Haskell.
“Hey Ms.Althouse, Inga once called you a bitch!”'
Althouse does not require any assistance in recalling the particulars of events that actually occurred.
Whereas you do not require any assistance in "recalling" the "particulars" of things that never actually happened but only existed as hoax talking points that you internalized.
The Alfa bank/Trump Tower server hoax comes to mind as a gem of an example of how you internalized easily debunked lies....which is precisely what it turned out to be.
But I'll bet you STILL believe that one....don't you?
LOL
If someone uses my name when we're already talking my assumption is that the person once had a job in sales.
Really bad sales!
In the South we use it to greet people.
Hey Joe, hey Sam, hey Britney, like that.
People like to hear their name. They've had scientific studies on this (if I remember right) about people being able to hear their name over all other words.
Our subconscious is also sophisticated and we often hear the emotional context, too. We hear the tone of your voice. So if it's a happy person calling your name, you're happy to hear it (usually). If you hear your name called and somebody is pissed, you go, "Uh-oh" or "oh fuck what now?" or something like that.
I did call Althouse Ann once, and Meade "Larry." It was in the Clerihews poem thread:
"Professor Ann Althouse
Larry’s her spouse.
He helps her with blogging
And the sink when clogging.
Good! First line is the name of a ((famous)) person and nothing more. Second line rhymes, then 2 more lines that rhyme with each other. There's no rule about meter or number of syllables, but keep it amusing and delightful."
In my defense, not that it's needed, I used her full name, because it's a required element, and I used Larry instead of Laurence because it flowed better, although that's not required as she points out. In retrospect I could have gone with Meade...
“Whereas you do not require any assistance in "recalling" the "particulars" of things that never actually happened but only existed as hoax talking points that you internalized.”
This may be a technique The Moscow Trained Propagandist learned while a star pupil back in Mother Russia. He tells a lie about certain commenters, he repeats the lie very often so that it can be internalized as a truth by readers here. If The Moscow Trained Propagandist really isn’t one, he certainly does a great job of imitating one…hmmmm.
Curious George, 😂
Inga: "This may be a technique The Moscow Trained Propagandist learned while a star pupil back in Mother Russia. He tells a lie about certain commenters, he repeats the lie very often so that it can be internalized as a truth by readers here. If The Moscow Trained Propagandist really isn’t one, he certainly does a great job of imitating one…hmmmm."
LOL
YOu have 7 years of conspiracy lunacy on full display at althouse blog which you yourself offered up all by your little lonesome.
Its hilarious you think you can gaslight away those 7 years of idiocy.
But go ahead, keep trying. Its entertaining.
Althouse, I am sorry my comment offended you so much that you did not post it. I did not keep a copy of it so I can’t reproduce it, but it was a take-off of a well-known comedy skit by Bill Saluga, not a dig at you.
His shtick goes: "NOOO!!! You don't have to call me Johnson! My name is Raymond J. Johnson Jr. Now you can call me Ray, or you can call me J, or you can call me Johnny, or you can call me Sonny, or you can call me Junie, or you can call me Junior; now you can call me Ray J, or you can call me RJ, or you can call me RJJ, or you can call me RJJ Jr. . . but you doesn't hasta call me Johnson!"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Saluga
I thought it fit the theme of your post and that if you did not know it some of your readers might. Maybe I have arrived at the age that my memory history has unplaced me with today’s culture.
But, me? I thought it was funny.
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