"... as he and U.S. intelligence services expected. Russian forces would now control nearly all of Ukraine and man the border of Poland and other frontline NATO states. If an insurgency broke out in Ukraine, Mr. Putin would be blaming those countries for aiding the 'terrorists,' whether they did or not, and threatening retaliation. Moldova would have been next to fall to Russia, and one or more of the Baltic states would be in his sites [sic]. NATO would be divided over how to respond for fear of Mr. Putin’s wrath.... The cost of shoring up NATO, with Russian tanks on its doorstep, would arguably have been even greater in the long run. U.S. credibility also would have suffered another blow, compounding the damage from the Afghanistan retreat...."
Writes The Editorial Board of The Wall Street Journal.
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১৮৩টি মন্তব্য:
It’s worth thinking about what the world would look like if the FBI and Twitter hadn’t conspired to censor a truthful story about the criminality of Joe Biden.
Crushing Kiev would've done nothing. People need to get this capture the flag/take the enemy's capital view of warfare out of their heads. Modern warfare isn't like that. It may never be like that again.
all of Ukraine and man the border of Poland and other frontline NATO states.
????
Wasn't The Ukraine part of the Warsaw Pact? So, wasn't it ALWAYS opposed to NATO?
If Fact.. Wasn't The Ukraine a Soviet Socialist Republic (PART of the USSR)?
Tell me Again? WHO is moving these 'borders'?
Isn't it NATO that is doing the Expanding?
{These aren't rhetorical questions.. They aren't even Questions; just statements of Fact}
Precisely.
See Hitler, A, 1936
Also, Sowell,"Intellectuals And War".
But...this cannot and should not be used to force us into an unending proxy war that lasts for years. To force us to ignore our own needs so that we continue to send billions in arms and money to a black hole in eastern Europe.
What cannot continue will not continue. We are in the greatest debt in the history of the world. How do you suppose this ends? Would you go to Joe Biden, Ron Klain, and Janet Yellen to oversee your personal finances? They are putting the national finances in a direction today (in many ways, not just Ukraine) from which we may never recover.
WSJ has rarely found a war it would not recommend paying for. But wars are fluid and in the end, die out unless financed to keep going. What is the end game? Where is the end game?
But...what about the drifting mission of NATO and promises literal or implied with the fall of the Iron Curtain? Why face the past and beat the dead horse that is the USSR? Russia is an incredibly resource-wealthy country with lots and lots of nuclear weapons.
Russians are also dying young from alcoholism, they aren't reproducing in large numbers, and they are stretched thin across a vast frozen wasteland. Power fills a vacuum. Look to the debate about Assad in Syria before and after the 2012 "Arab Spring." He was considered evil until ISIS and other groups came to power. Assad remains today.
Realpolitik Thursday, Althouse?
They may well be correct, but the WSJ lost me some time ago. If I recall, Assclown Douthat and Buttwipe Stephens used write for the WSJ editorial board. The only one I actually respect is whatshername.
- Krumhorn
The Domino Theory Part Deux.
Now we see what the WSJ and all the other neocons feared would happen. This, just like Millhiser trying to dump Kagan, is all about guessing the future and laying their worst scenario on it, and then deciding policy accordingly. Playing a dark version of God in their heads.
Ukraine is larger than France, which is the largest country in West Europe.
Ukraine's population is larger than Poland, which has the largest population in East Europe.
Conquering Ukraine is a huge task. It can't be done "within days".
It's worth thinking about that the world would look today if Mr. Putin had occupied just Ukraine's eastern regions where Russians clearly are in the majority.
Attacking Kyiv and other Ukrainian-majority cities was Putin's major mistake.
Yes, the country that is having a hard time getting out of Donbas is a threat to the whole of Europe. Oh wait, that's an imaginary Russia that doesn't exist, apparently, but still, it was worth all of the carnage to have this war we wanted, and with any luck, we will get to divvy up Russia's mineral wealth!
Wow there is a heavy media campaign, "flooding the zone," if you will, to get billions more to Zelensky. Did you know that Zelensky and his Ukrainian cronies made up 40% of the oligarchs in the Panama Papers? Did you know that Joe Biden is credibly implicated, by actual evidence that nobody denies, in Ukrainian corruption?
"Russian forces would now control nearly all of Ukraine"
Yes, that would be bad. How much would it endanger us? How many billions should we spend to react?
"man the border of Poland"
They already do in Kaliningrad. So?
"If an insurgency broke out in Ukraine . . . Moldova would have been next to fall to Russia . . . NATO would be divided . . . The cost of shoring up NATO, with Russian tanks on its doorstep, would arguably have been even greater . . . U.S. credibility also would have suffered . . "
If, would, would: the hypothetical scenario spinning shows that no immediate material interests are at stake. To avoid spending some speculative amount in the future we must spend humungous sums now. US credibility suffers how? What credibility?
"compounding the damage from the Afghanistan retreat...."
The real problem in Afghanistan was the extent of our involvement, the basic error the WSJ now wants to repeat.
Sounds like woulda coulda shoulda Vietnam dejavú all over again.
Fuck! Dam war clock is always ticking.
It’s worth thinking about what the world would look like today if there hadn't been a complete failure of diplomacy.
I definitely prefer all of that to what is happening now.
It’s worth thinking about what would have happened had the US not shoved NATO up against Russia’s front door. Europe would not be facing a winter of $2000 a month electric bills, the US economy might be roaring out of a recession, millions of Ukrainians might not be disposed, and Ukraine itself might be intact.
Hypotheticals are fun and easy.
"It’s worth thinking about what the world would look like today if Mr. Putin had crushed Kyiv within days as he and U.S. intelligence services expected."
Is it though? Alternate history is an interesting genre of speculative fiction, but when that approach is applied to an ongoing conflict, it reads like a false dichotomy.
"The cost of shoring up NATO, with Russian tanks on its doorstep, would arguably have been even greater in the long run."
Maybe Joe Biden should have picked up the phone and talked seriously to Putin, instead of telling him where he can shove his red lines. What Biden did was wrote a letter to Ukraine, in November of 2021 paving the way for them to enter NATO, crossing a Russian red line, Putin responded with a speech in December laying out Russia's position, Biden didn't take that as a start of negotiations, he preferred this war.
Could have had a deal for a neutral Ukraine, intact, with the Russian speaking regions part of Ukraine, paying taxes to Kiev, but with autonomy, for instance, allowed to do official business in Russian. That deal was actually made, Minsk, but Ukraine didn't live by it, but it was on the table again before the intervention in Ukraine's civil war, where we were arming one side, and Russia the other.
Merkel admitted that the Minsk accords were just a ruse to buy time for this war, and eight years of arming Ukraine against Russia later, here it is.
We say we only gave them defensive weapons, well that freed up a lot of Soviet era weaponry already in Kiev's possession for offensive operations.
Gee, it seems like it would have been a good idea to keep Ukraine in no man's land instead of doing a pro-Nato color revolution and dangling joining the West in front of it...
This is all for the War Machine.
Look at the spectacle going on in DC - the media gushing over Biden and Zelinski...
While the entire Democrat party and 21 Republicans agree to fork over billion and billions MORE (on top of the billions already sent) of OUR tax dollars - to the WAR.
The industrial war complex and insiders smile. Thank you, Putin.
The globalists and elites need wars. So -we get more war.
There must be a war going on somewhere.
Let's do realpolitik. So far Russia has lost about a third of its operable, or even potentially operable tanks, missile launchers, infantry fighting vehicles and so forth. Its missile stores are pretty depleted as well.
So it looks like they will be unable to seriously threaten Eastern Europe with a conventional invasion for a generation. (Hard to see with their birth rate and economy how they can seriously or quickly rearm).
So we have helped defang a pretty bad state which did threaten our friends and trading partners, and showed another one (China) the heavy cost of forceful expansion, at relatively little cost to us, since others are doing the fighting. (What's a hundred billion between friends?)
This is such utter bullshit. Invading a non-NATO country is (at least supposed to be) different than invading a NATO country. Taking Ukraine would not in any way imply a willingness to take a Baltic country.
Based on the analysis at the time of the invasion, taking all of Ukraine would have been doing NATO a favor; the worst case at the time was taking the eastern productive half and leaving the poorest, least useful western half for NATO to deal with.
The best argument in favor of what we've done is the message it sends to other countries tempted by seemingly easy neighboring invasion targets.
At what time will the involvement of the US in the Russia/Ukraine war leave China thinking it can take Taiwan? That would really be a blow to the rest of the world.
Ukraine supplies India, China and Egypt with vast amounts of food oils and grains. If Russia controls those supplies, the two largest countries on earth and the most powerful country in Africa are less likely to be opponents of Russia. Keeping Russia less powerful than it could be is a worthwhile goal, as long as the cost doesn't lead to the US becoming less powerful.
In the immediately preceding paragraph they say, "There’s no predicting what the willful Kremlin dictator might do, but one thing the war has taught is that Russia’s military is far less formidable than most believed."
Then they go on to predict what Putin would do if he did have a formidable military, which they just told us he doesn't have.
I guess we narrowly avoided the impossible. Phew! That was a close one.
"Crushing Kiev would've done nothing. People need to get this capture the flag/take the enemy's capital view of warfare out of their heads. Modern warfare isn't like that. It may never be like that again."
Wait. You don't even need the city. Just occupy the capitol building and the coup is accomplished.
If any of that is true, it shows why it was a good idea to leave Ukraine as a buffer zone between Russia and NATO, rather than try to make it part of NATO.
This is such an improvement on Afghanistan: You get both Russia and the U.S. there at the same time.
I hate to admit this, but arguing with ritmo changed my outlook and made me a peacenik. He is prolly on Twitter right now with a Ukrainian flag in his handle.
“Wait. You don't even need the city. Just occupy the capitol building and the coup is accomplished.”
Genuinely brilliant, I actually laughed out loud! Then cried a little.
I speculate Russia was there in Afghanistan and Iraq, just covertly or indirectly.
This is balderdash. Russia couldn't have taken over all of Ukraine. The forces Russia started with and is using now cannot occupy the whole of Ukraine. Our own government didn't even leave Ukraine before the invasion, but just moved folks to Lviv because they understood this.
This is a great money making and power broking scheme for folks in Washington. They get rich off weapons sales and get to act like they are Churchill or Churchill's friend.
China is much more important than Russia globally. If the West didn't help Ukraine then Taiwan most likely would be next. Seeing how Ukraine has done so well with western weapons and help, makes an invasion of Taiwan much more unlikely.
Unlike Afghanistan, Vietnam and Iraq, there are no US or Nato troops fighting in Ukraine. There's no need for it. The Ukrainians are motivated and capable of doing the fighting themselves if they get needed weapons and intelligence.
"The cost of shoring up NATO, with Russian tanks on its doorstep, would arguably have been even greater in the long run."
Oh snap! This is the same exact situation we will be in if Ukraine wins! I can't imagine why Putin wouldn't want American tanks on its border just a couple of hundred miles from Moscow! He must be "paranoid"! His idea for a non aligned Ukraine separating two great armies was complete and utter nonsense!
"But NATO is a defensive alliance!"
Tell that to Georgia, Libya, Syria, Iraq...
Instead of sending new military equipment to Ukraine, couldn't we just send them some of the stuff we left behind in Afghanistan?
Wait. You don't even need the city. Just occupy the capitol building and the coup is accomplished
A J6 committee fan.
There is still a huge, but diminishing, difference between the editorial pages and the front page. Sadly, that is slowly disappearing.
NATO stronger and more united than ever. Ukraine showing guts and backbone standing up to an evil bully. Trump's phony macho traitors Cucks and Putin apologists hardest hit... unexpectedly
"Wait. You don't even need the city. Just occupy the capitol building and the coup is accomplished."
I was thinking more decapitation strikes, but I like where you're head's at!
And to think all Zelensky would have to do is put up some velvet cordons to keep armies of Russian babushkas from stealing his podium. Olena Zelensky hides in a building across the river cowering in fear while the Ukrainian version of Roy Epps shouts encouragement and leads viking helmeted hordes of Russian retirees like the Pied-piper into the Dnieper River! No chance in hell they've modeled THIS at the Army War College!
I come down to bottom to compare this with the leftist lie, Jan 6 was an insurrection, with unarmed grandparents swarming the capital, but Keeping Kiev wont keep the govt. Leftist can't keep up with their own "truths"
But our host did it sooo much bester.
It’s worth noting that our intelligence services are always wrong. They said Putin wouldn’t invade but if he did they’d take Kyiv over the weekend and be done. Recalling these intelligence failures only frustrates me more after hearing the same talk yesterday about “defensive weapons only” limitations on the current aid package for Ukraine. Why are we half-assing a war that is so allegedly important? Why has reporting and intelligence been wrong wrong wrong all along?
While I do not like Putin, the fact still remains he didn’t invade Ukraine, he entered the 2 breakaway regions at their request to protect them from Zelensky and the oligarchs neonazi Azov battalion terrorists who have been targeting the ethnic Russian Ukrainian citizens for well over a decade. Hating and blaming the ethnic Russian Christians for what the ancestors of Zelensky and the oligarchs did to Ukrainian Christians but also to the ancestors of the ethnic Russian Christians Ukrainian citizens. The Azov neonazis are morons.
There's more to this than just Ukraine. I have to wonder what China is thinking. Did they go from licking their chops about Taiwan to possibly stepping back and rethinking their plans? Sometimes a stitch in time saves nine.
By keeping this 'war' a stale mate we get to donate out stockpile NOS weapons, and replenish them with newer weapons. Baring any economic reasons, Russia/Ukraine doesn't matter.
"If an insurgency broke out in Ukraine . . . Moldova would have been next to fall to Russia . . . NATO would be divided . . . The cost of shoring up NATO,
If Trump were President, he would show up at the next meeting of NATO and explain to Europe that the United States has pre-paid their NATO dues for the next decade and the rest of the members will be responsible for funding NATO graft.
Frankly, I'm shocked at the "Sites" thing. So, now the WSJ is so sloppy it can't hire a proof reader?
As for the rest of it, man talk about stupid. Yeah, we need to fight them over there or before long the Russkies will be landing on Daytona Beach.
Just to repeat: If Kiev had fallen, and a pro-Russian Government had made peace, nothing signficant would've changed. Parts of the Donbas and crimea would've officially become part of Russia. Ukraine would've agreed to not be part of NATO. That's it.
If Putin wants the Baltics, he can take them whether Ukraine is ruled by Zelensky or someeone else. Lets back up and look at some facts. Russia has approximately 150 million people and 1/10 the GNP of NATO. It just expanded its armed forces, which will be about as large as the USA's 1.5 million.
Russia has no desire to conquer Europe, and couldn't do it even if it wanted. ON the other hand, NATO/USA do want to conquer Russia. We're one step away from having "Russian Regime Change" as our goal. Along with giving the crimea and Donbas back to Ukraine, and having Ukraine be part of NATO.
This isn't our war and never has been. Its killing thousands of Russians and Ukrainians and accomplishing nothing. But that's the USA. We love war. We love no-win wars. We love endless war. We love moralizing.
As someone stated "What is the end game" - the obvious end game is regime chanage in Moscow. Which means endless war. Cold or hot. My suggestion: Buy Defense stocks.
Howard -
Putin didn't advance while Trump was president. Putin waited until the Ukrainian Burisma grifter - Crook Biden- was installed.
Be happy - you're a democrat who likes the $$$ War machine. Hooray for Democrat smiles and tax payer rape and war machine subsidies!
Putin is an asshole (who should be stopped) - yet isn't it funny how useless FBI and CIA are? They cannot even touch Putin and take him out. Good thing we are paying for a new FBI building.
We screwed up Ukraine policy for 30 years.
People fail to Realize that Russia wouldn't have had the money or nerve to attack Ukraine were that crazy Sumbitch still in office.
Lyle said:
This is a great money making and power brokering scheme for folks in Washington. They get rich off weapons sales and get to act like they are Churchill.
Just wanted to bold that.
Proxy wars are so fun for neo-cons and neo-liberals. All the defense spending with none of the US casualties. Plane-loads of untraceable cash-on-pallets. And no end in "site." We just need a designated proxy to take the nuclear hit if it comes to that. Germany? Do I hear a second?
from the op-ed:
"The U.S. has so far provided some $21.9 billion in total military or other aid, and Congress this week is voting on another $45 billion in support that will be rolled out in the coming months. Some countries such as the Baltic states have donated more as a share of national GDP. But the U.S. has provided by far the most in dollars and military hardware."
You don't say.
more from link:
"Mr. Putin’s strategy is to punish the Ukrainian people and impose economic costs on the West with a goal of outlasting the democracies. But Mr. Zelensky and Ukrainians deserve continued U.S. support, and the fastest way to end the war is to provide Kyiv with the weapons to win as soon as possible.
Some Republicans in Congress are now claiming there should be no support for Ukraine while the U.S. southern border isn’t secure. But that argument is a non sequitur. There are enough resources to do both. The problem at the border is Mr. Biden’s failure of will to do anything to stop the migrant flood.
All wars end with some form of negotiation, and this one will too. But Mr. Putin betrays no willingness to do so on anything other than his terms. The faster and more decisively Ukraine regains its territory, the sooner Russia may reconsider its disastrous war."
WE'VE HEARD THIS SONG BEFORE. WE'VE WATCHED THIS MOVIE BEFORE.
The US has no choice but to fund. Happy coincidence!
The UN was set up to deal with situations exactly like this. The UN is feckless. So, we should simply say -- Hey UN, you solve it or we will withdraw our membership, de-fund you, and kick you out of NYC.
End of story.
mikee said...
"At what time will the involvement of the US in the Russia/Ukraine war leave China thinking it can take Taiwan? That would really be a blow to the rest of the world."
There's a funny YouTube clip of the Chinese Army trying to cross into Indian territory. Maybe a hundred or so Chinese armed to the gills. There are a handful of Indian soldiers. With sticks. Beating back the Chinese.
Howard said...
"NATO stronger and more united than ever."
Mmmm. No. But being right or accurate has never been your strong suit.
The UN was designed to deal with situations exactly like this.
The UN is feckless.
Therefore, we should tell the UN to fix the Ukraine thingy, or we will withdraw our membership, stop paying $$ to the UN, and kick them out of NYC.
Easy, peasy
The UN was designed to deal with situations exactly like this.
The UN is feckless.
Therefore, we should tell the UN to fix the Ukraine thingy, or we will withdraw our membership, stop paying $$ to the UN, and kick them out of NYC.
Easy, peasy
The UN was designed to deal with situations exactly like this.
The UN is feckless.
Therefore, we should tell the UN to fix the Ukraine thingy, or we will withdraw our membership, stop paying $$ to the UN, and kick them out of NYC.
Easy, peasy
Would this be a world in which Germany continues to shirk it's defense responsibilities?
Is it a world in which the Green Party still wants to rely on Russian gas?
Let’s not forget Brandon “inviting” Putin to make a minor incursion into Ukraine. This administration is feckless and ignorant (also plain old stupid) beyond belief. Biden who believes that he is sophisticated in these matters has always been and always will be a D student.
https://www.hudson.org/foreign-policy/biden-s-inviting-putin-to-invade-ukraine-he-needs-to-fortify-it-instead
What is conveniently memory holed - During Obama's presidency - the O admin did all they could to makes pals with Putin's Russia. Re-set and all that. Recall the left Mocked Romney for his comments about the dangers of Putin.
"the 80's called"." mocking mocking mocking. All forgotten.
I’m appalled by all the apologists for or admirers of Russia’s naked terrorist aggression. At least now we don’t have to worry about Russia demanding a land kink to Kaliningrad through Poland or Lithuania. Oh, wait, you wouldn’t care about that, either.
Maybe so, WSJ, but if DJT was still President, it's unlikely any of this would have happened.
All well and good but no one has explained why it's in the interests of the US taxpayers to fund this war. Why not Germany and Poland? Germany is the powerhouse of the EU economy. Let them spend billions of marks on arms for Ukraine. They are the ones most threatened by Russia, not us.
Recalling these intelligence failures only frustrates me more after hearing the same talk yesterday about “defensive weapons only” limitations on the current aid package for Ukraine. Why are we half-assing a war that is so allegedly important?
Because the political and bureaucratic classes are filled with cowards who are happy to make all sorts of promises that they think will never need to be honored but are loathe to make any commitment which might be politically costly.
As for the intelligence question, the answer is two-fold: first, we tend to be much better at the technical side of intelligence than the human side. We do well with quantifiable metrics, such as "how many tanks does the enemy have," or "what are the capabilities of the new Chinese jet," or "where is the enemy submarine located" than we are with more nebulous questions about issues like military corruption, or soldier morale. Second, there's a tendency to err on the side of caution. Assuming the worst and being wrong is less costly than assuming the best and being wrong.
NewsWeek: “Zelensky made "fatal mistake" by visiting U.S., Russia warns”
Howard: "NATO stronger and more united than ever."
LOL
Every day Howard sets a new standard for transparent gaslighting lies.
The German military remains a complete shambles and hollowed out joke and the Eastern Europeans can basically only offer some motivated ground troops.
You might get an operational squadron or 2 from the low countries, ("The Ghosts Of Western Europe"!!!) though the Dutch certainly know how to throw fun parties at villas in Northern Italy, and there might be some surplus stuff hanging around the rest of Europe.
Its all a farce and everyone knows it.
Howard is overcompensating as much as Biden's Earpiece with this stuff which shouldnt be surprising as Howard appears fixated on his own lack of actual combat time.
Howard is the "Da Nang" Dick Blumenthal of Althouse blog.
How many of our failing schools could be retrofitted to 2023 building code? How many new computers could they hand out to kids who need them? How many of our crumbling highways could be rebuilt for $100 billion?
America First! Dammit.
The Truth about the Vietnam War
You might want to watch that, Howard.
The War Machine is real.
"At least now we don’t have to worry about Russia demanding a land kink to Kaliningrad through Poland or Lithuania."
Does the land kink involve vegan leather harnesses? Leggy Lithuanian vixens in naught but strips of vegan leather defending their homeland...I shudder with anticipation.
Howard said...
NATO stronger and more united than ever. Ukraine showing guts and backbone standing up to an evil bully. Trump's phony macho traitors Cucks and Putin apologists hardest hit... unexpectedly
Remember that Howard just a few years ago was opposed to NATO countries spending more on their own defense and living up to their NATO obligations.
Because Trump was forcing them to do it.
Russia didn't start any wars when Trump was president because we were a serious country when he was president.
Now Howard cheers as the US is forced to fund Ukraine's defense while the inflation this causes is destroying the middle and working class here in the US.
This war was started so that Joe Biden could get his 10%. Joe Biden OK'd a "minor incursion" before this war started.
Howard doesn't give a shit about Ukraine or the people there. He never cared about NATO or stopping Russia.
Howard is just a complete piece of shit who doesn't care about anything except attacking his political opponents. His words and his actions over the last 8 years are completely at odds.
It would be difficult to be a more pathetic human being than Howard is right now.
Without claiming any military expertise, I am attracted to the theory that Putin never wanted to actually take Kiev. This was a bit of a diversion, or an attempt to spread Ukrainian forces. Based on what he has done in Georgia and Crimea, Putin is interested re-identifying and re-uniting areas that are largely ethnically or linguistically Russian, and perhaps Russian-friendly. Donbass, maybe other areas east of the Dnieper, but not Ukraine as a whole. If Moldava is attacked, it would be for the "unofficially autonomous" Transnistria. And then there are ports on the Black Sea.
Who would want Ukraine as a whole? I'm not at all sure it's ever been economically viable, even with Crimea and the Donbass. In peacetime workers went every day from the west to Poland, and from the east to Russia.
Also a bit outside of my wheelhouse: the Patriot anti-missile missile, supposedly a wonderful gift for NATO and now Ukraine: does it actually work?
We're all supposed to pretend that Ukraine is the center of the universe so that Zelensky and Biden can get what they want, and supposedly Putin can't do much about it.
How many of our failing schools could be retrofitted to 2023 building code?
Zero, they are in Democrat run locations.
When exactly was it that all the anti-Soviet Republicans became pro-Putin Republicans. Seemed to happen overnight. Why did the Soviet empire with its expansionist goals and bloody dictators pose a greater threat to American security and way-of-life than the Russian empire with its expansionist goals and bloody dictators?
btw - saying that Democrats loved Stalin and hate Putin - first, is not an answer to my question and second, is inapplicable to me.
The Neocons need to be purged from the Republican party. None of this gets better until at least one of our parties is not infested by globalist shitheads.
It is time for the United States to be run by people who put he United States first.
The next step is to charge the corrupt traitors profiting off these wars. It is time for 4AM raids. Everyone in DC needs to be given the Manafort treatment. Solitary confinement. Seized phones. Turn out all of their communications.
There might be 50 people in DC that aren't completely corrupt laundering tax payer dollars.
In 5-20 years Howard will be cheering when we abandon the people of Ukraine.
"What is conveniently memory holed - During Obama's presidency - the O admin did all they could to makes pals with Putin's Russia. Re-set and all that."
That was a good thing. (Aren't the Trump lovers always praising him for managing a good relationship with Putin?) It is a BAD thing for us to continually behave belligerently with the other major adversary nations of the world (particularly Russia and China).
Drago
It's so bad that Poland and the Baltic states are prepared to go it alone and not rely on the rest of NATO should Russia invade.
If we are going to be funding Europe's war the least we could do is make our dollars contingent on the EU matching the amount.
I would think Europe would happily comply, being that this is existential for them all.
Daddy will pay for your crashed car.
I am Laslo.
Drago
It's so bad that Poland and the Baltic states are prepared to go it alone and not rely on the rest of NATO should Russia invade.
Douglas B. Levene said...
I’m appalled by all the apologists for or admirers of Russia’s naked terrorist aggression. At least now we don’t have to worry about Russia demanding a land kink to Kaliningrad through Poland or Lithuania. Oh, wait, you wouldn’t care about that, either.
I am appalled by your dishonesty.
You support ethnic cleansing and state sponsored murder too.
Ukraine has been murdering Russian ethnics since the 2014 coup.
You are just too dishonest to admit it. In lieu of an honest argument you pretend the people who disagree with you support Putin.
You are just a piece of shit too.
The UN was set up to deal with situations exactly like this. The UN is feckless. So, we should simply say -- Hey UN, you solve it or we will withdraw our membership, de-fund you, and kick you out of NYC.
The UN is not a world parliament where the majority can impose it's will on a miscreant major power. The veto given to members in the security counsel precludes that. It can be a useful forum for countries to meet and try to work out differences behind close doors. Resolutions passed have no significance except to show where countries stand on various issues, which in turn can show the status of the major powers.
Amexpat said...
China is much more important than Russia globally. If the West didn't help Ukraine then Taiwan most likely would be next. Seeing how Ukraine has done so well with western weapons and help, makes an invasion of Taiwan much more unlikely.
Just tell Taiwan to test a nuke in the China Sea.
Give them the capability to reach Beijing.
Problem solved.
No muss. No 45 Billion dollar aid packages. No fuss. No 10% for the big guy.
But now you can see why the corrupt shitheads in DC will never go for this.
It is worth thinking about the world had Romney won in 2012. Well worth as least as much as this WSJ Op-Ed.
Krumhorn - "Whats her name" is the worst RINO columnist of all. Do NOT read her and give her clicks that pay and sustain her. She is stuck in an endless time-loop, where Reagan ia a hero, but MAGA is beneath her and needs to be stomped out. She writes the same column every week.
Howard: "NATO stronger and more united than ever."
LOL The Germans just reneged (AGAIN) on meeting the 2% of GDP for defense spending. It's all happy faces and platitudes while the US does the heavy lifting.
Anyone who tries to make sense of American Foreign policy and its insane twists and turns will go crazy themselves.
People who in 2021 couldn't locate the Donbas or Crimea on a map, are now chattering about "Who lost the Donbas?" and shrieking that "We must stop Putin. He's another hitler!!!".
Nothing can stop Americans from their love of war and moralizing imperialism. Look at how happy Biden, Schumer and the gang were yesterday. They get all sad and annoyed when someone suggests they spend 10 cents on securing the USA borders, but their eyes light up and its all smiles when they give Zelensky $48 billion to protect Ukrainians border.
All that applause, all those Ukrainian flags. You'd think Zelenksy was doing his nightclub and playing the piano with his penis.
"Interested Bystander" asks about retrofitting schools, giving school children computers, repairing crumbling highways.
These are state responsibilities, except for federal highways, not federal responsibilities. The federal responsibilities include defense, and in today's world, that includes keeping Russia (and yes, China) from buying up the cooperation and fealty of Middle Eastern and African nations with Ukrainian grain.
Yes, it's a shame Europe won't take responsibility, and our executive should demand it--but he won't. For that matter, it's a shame our federal government and lots of our states, like Europe, are mesmerized with the green dream and deliberately weakening themselves and their populations.
Yes, it is expensive to assist Ukraine. But we have a crazily expanded welfare state now, and we're paying for a green revolution--both great ways to destroy our economy. Those are the expenses we should watch, not the price of checking the communist powers from expansion by a relatively short-term payment.
Some mention is made in previous comments of Russians in eastern Ukraine.
It was a Russian policy throughout the Cold War to deliberately move citizens of Baltic states into the Soviet Union and replace them with exports of Russians. Moving Ukrainians to Russia has been part of Putin's war recently. I don't see how it "justifies" an invasion to rule another country.
Ann Althouse said...
"Crushing Kiev would've done nothing. People need to get this capture the flag/take the enemy's capital view of warfare out of their heads. Modern warfare isn't like that. It may never be like that again."
Wait. You don't even need the city. Just occupy the capitol building and the coup is accomplished.
12/22/22, 8:37 AM
Good one Ann!!!
The Domino Theory is back again.
They brought Zelensky to Washington because Biden wanted to know firsthand what his hair smells like.
Ain’t nobody on the WSJ editorial staff going over and fighting any wars. Fuck each and every one of those cockroaches.
And yeah, it’s fucking NATO constantly expanding on Russia. It’s the guy who took bribes from Ukraine financing this bullshit with American tax payer dollars. We’re the bad guys. It’s kinda crushing to come to that realization at 62.
“Wait. You don't even need the city. Just occupy the capitol building and the coup is accomplished.“
Althouse wins the dreaded 🧵
“This is such an improvement on Afghanistan: You get both Russia and the U.S. there at the same time.“
I know this is not comedy’s best (saying stuff one doesn’t believe) but… we keep going down the same roads. The alternative is just too depressing.
he didn’t invade Ukraine, he entered the 2 breakaway regions at their request
their?Exactly who is 'their'? 8 people at morning coffee? You have taken a big bite of propaganda handed out by somebody (Russia?)
Cue Van Morrison: “Whoa, Domino, there you go…”
What America really needs is a big federal building named for Nancy Pelosi to unite us all while babies go without formula or medication, while the national debt is accumulating faster than ever, while Brandon “helps” the homeless with crack pipe kits and gender-affirming care, while our electric grid falls apart at the same time our leaders insist on limiting other ways to power necessary things, NOW is the perfect time for a costly tribute to the mendacious madam Speaker.
apparently whatever we have given the president of one of the most corrupt nations on earth........it just isnt enough.
Sound familiar?
apparently whatever we have given the president of one of the most corrupt nations on earth........it just isnt enough.
Sound familiar?
Are there any “Antiwar” lefties left?
How about “principled” Democrats?
Or do they only show up when Republicans are in charge?
"There are enough resources to do both."
On line voice (OLV): This is MasterCard, how may I help you?
POTUS: Yeah, hey. This is old lunch bucket Joe. seem to be bumping up against my credit limit. Can you help a guy out?
OLV: Just one minute, please (puts POTUS on hold.... background music plays). Yes, Mr. Biden I see your account right now. It seems you ARE at the $31 trillion dollar limit. How much do you wish to increase this by?
POTUS: Well we've got another couple of trillion coming down the pipeline for the interim spending bill. So a couple more?
OLV: Based on our review of your spending habits I fear that limit will be exceeded soon. Why don't we just raise that to $35 trillion to get you through the holiday season?
POTUS: Great, let's do that.
OLV: Just to let you know, your interest rate will be increased as well.
POTUS: I love having people take interest in my plans! Thanks. (Hangs up).
POTUS: (Turns to McConnell) Good news, there are enough resources to do both.
Russia already borders Poland at Kaliningrad. It also already borders the NATO countries of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. It has had troops in Transdnistria, which technically part of Moldova, since the end of the Soviet Union. It's as if these "experts" don't know history or geography or much else. Or maybe they are counting on us not knowing much.
“NATO stronger and more united than ever. Ukraine showing guts and backbone standing up to an evil bully. Trump's phony macho traitors Cucks and Putin apologists hardest hit... unexpectedly”.
It takes a complete moron cocksucker, one who wouldn’t put his pussy ass on the line to write garbage like this. Joe Biden has a 55 year record as an evil bully. You want to blow him.
Douglas B. Levene: "I’m appalled by all the apologists for or admirers of Russia’s naked terrorist aggression."
Mischaracterization is a prerequisite for our Keyboard Warrior Heroes.
You are free to volunteer to fight for your beloved Ukraine there Audie Murphy. Let us know how it goes.
Meanwhile, our borders are wide open and under open cartel control with fentanyl pouring over and killing thousands of Americans, all the while military veterans are languishing in homeless shelters and under bridges across the nation.
But it must be comforting to some to know that our tax dollars are being spent, UNAUDITED(!), to pay the salaries of the entire Ukrainian political bureaucracy and no doubt filling not just a few swiss bank accounts. And lets not get started on how much US equipment is diverted to the black market. I'm sure the African and islamic warlords will be pleased with the haul coming their way.
Because that's what's important. Team "No Slava to America!" has made its position known.
“I’m appalled by all the apologists for or admirers of Russia’s naked terrorist aggression. At least now we don’t have to worry about Russia demanding a land kink to Kaliningrad through Poland or Lithuania. Oh, wait, you wouldn’t care about that, either.”
A good many people here still express more appreciation and loyalty to Putin than to our own government, that is an important part of Trumpism. Republicans didn’t have this sort of affinity for Putin/Russia before Trump. Trump stood there on the podium in Helsinki with Putin and said he didn’t know why he shouldn’t believe Putin. That was shocking, appalling and should’ve shown all of America who and what Trump really was.
Putin is no different than Hitler who claimed he wanted “Lebensraum” for ethnic Germans in Eastern Europe.
Wow, I'm appalled. There sure are a lot of Russian agents here at Althouse. Just as I always suspected. Communist infiltration. Communist subversion. Don't think us patriotic Americans aren't keeping you under surveillence - COMRADE.
As that Great American Christopher Wray said: Anyone opposed to the Ukrainian Government is opposed to Democracy. And is spreading disinformation and misinformation and is probably a domestic terrorist.
We need to fall in line and support our Commander-in-Chief Joesph P. Biden. All real American are.
“Every day Howard sets a new standard for transparent gaslighting lies.”
You are the master of “gaslighting lies” Drago. You project this onto Howard to deflect attention away from what you’ve been doing on these threads for years now.
I believe in the Salvador Allende leadership model. If our political/business/social elites want to fund/fight wars, demand that they directly participate. No volunteering, conscript them. Issue them M4/MaA1 rifles, 100 rounds of ammo, all the gear and protection our regular troops receive and send them to the front lines. They were brave with the lives of the 58,000 men and women who died in the Vietnam War. Now let them show their bravery to their countrymen.
I appreciate all the heavy lifting from all those European countries. We really need to step up our efforts to match theirs.
World’s most successful gigolo.
https://mobile.twitter.com/fabushka_/status/1605824857165496323
Unknown said...
While I do not like Putin, the fact still remains he didn’t invade Ukraine, he entered the 2 breakaway regions at their request to protect them from Zelensky and the oligarchs neonazi Azov battalion terrorists who have been targeting the ethnic Russian Ukrainian citizens for well over a decade. Hating and blaming the ethnic Russian Christians for what the ancestors of Zelensky and the oligarchs did to Ukrainian Christians but also to the ancestors of the ethnic Russian Christians Ukrainian citizens. The Azov neonazis are morons.
**************
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Holodomor genocide.
Perhaps you suffer amnesia over that 40-mile long convoy of tanks and trucks entering Ukraine from the north, far from those "breakaway regions" aided and abetted by the Russians.
Perhaps you can explain how the (Jewish) "ancestors" of Zhelensky wound up working with the Azov neoNazis"---or are you implying the Jews have always been crypto-Nazis?
“ When exactly was it that all the anti-Soviet Republicans became pro-Putin”
Maybe it’s because you guys transparently lied about us and Trump for six years and we began to wonder what else you were lying about, and then again, maybe it’s because maintaining a global empire is not a conservative value.
Opposition in parliament to Britain’s world-wide empire also came from conservatives.
Interested Bystander said...
"How many of our failing schools could be retrofitted to 2023 building code? How many new computers could they hand out to kids who need them? How many of our crumbling highways could be rebuilt for $100 billion?
America First! Dammit."
Our ANNUAL military budget is now up to $800b. The annual Federal budget is about $5t. We are the richest country the world has ever seen. If we were choosing between retrofitting schools/buying computers/fixing highways and sending billions to Ukraine, we'd have been doing that stuff before the war started, and pulled money out to send to Ukraine.
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...
"It’s worth noting that our intelligence services are always wrong. They said Putin wouldn’t invade but if he did they’d take Kyiv over the weekend and be done."
Biden said over and over again in the leadup to the invasion that Russia would invade. So much so that Ukraine got annoyed! All based on information from intelligence services. Do you think we all have amnesia?
Unknown said...
"While I do not like Putin, the fact still remains he didn’t invade Ukraine, he entered the 2 breakaway regions at their request to protect them from Zelensky and the oligarchs neonazi Azov battalion terrorists who have been targeting the ethnic Russian Ukrainian citizens for well over a decade."
Are you joking, stuck in 2014, parroting Russian propaganda, or all three? Remember that hundred mile Russian convey that got jammed up on the way to Kyiv in the first days of the war? Let alone all the missiles raining down day after day. Dude.
You and Big Mike need to wait a little longer before attempting to rewrite history. At least beyond the calendar year!!
Responses aside -- we need to be super skeptical at every turn about endless blank checks for war. I am thankful that there is starting to be real pushback from both right and left on never ending war spending. I just wish you weren't doing it based on Russian propaganda and your own personal insight into Putin's benevolent and purely defensive intensions.
Russia Collusion Truther and Hillary/FBI Hoax Dossier Dead Ender Inga: "You are the master of “gaslighting lies” Drago. You project this onto Howard to deflect attention away from what you’ve been doing on these threads for years now."
Inga has been, hands down, the biggest and longest running lunatic left conspiracy commenter and advancer of every single transparent democratical lie on these boards for at least the last 5 years. Dwarfing even Howard, though her defense of her fellow lefty is entirely unsurprising.
To list all of the hilarious and debunked lies and conspiracies Inga has pushed would deplete the known pixel reserves of Earth.
And to this very day Inga has retracted not a single one...primarily due no doubt to her precarious temporal disorder whereby she cannot recall anything she has written more than 15 minutes ago.
A common affliction amongst those on the left.
Ann Althouse said.
"Wait. You don't even need the city. Just occupy the capitol building and the coup is accomplished."
I see why Meade keeps you around.
The CIA killed JFK.
Our nation is a mirage - run by the corrupt elite. The mob.
They are all raiding the treasury and stuffing their pockets.
See: Pelosi, Clinton, Biden family - Fauci - the heads of the FBI/CIA more...
Inga said...
"Republicans didn’t have this sort of affinity for Putin/Russia before Trump."
I don't think it's specifically about Putin, whom Trump had a very mixed relationship with (sometimes hyper friendly, sometimes hyper aggressive).
No, Republicans these days don't fantasize specifically about Putin, they fantasize about hard right dictatorships. Starting with Viktor Orban and Hungary.
Achilles said...
"Just tell Taiwan to test a nuke in the China Sea. Give them the capability to reach Beijing. Problem solved. No muss. No 45 Billion dollar aid packages. No fuss. No 10% for the big guy. But now you can see why the corrupt shitheads in DC will never go for this."
Unknown and Big Mike, take note: this is how you rewrite history. It's been a whole 60 years since the Cuban missile crisis, so you can now suggest sending nukes to an island right next to a geopolitical opponent as a simple, cheap, and easy solution.
Achilles, counterproposal -- put Taiwan on the blockchain! That should do it.
Summer in Spring.
Iraq retreat... Afghan retreat... Libya... people left behind in a prelude to the World War Spring series in progress.
boatbuilder said...
Are there any “Antiwar” lefties left?
Letter sent by antiwar lefties in Congress to Biden (retracted under extreme pressure a couple days later).
Rusty: "Drago
It's so bad that Poland and the Baltic states are prepared to go it alone and not rely on the rest of NATO should Russia invade."
Quite so.
The Eastern Europeans know how useless our western European NATO "allies" are and unlike the corrupt openly Nazi-types in Ukraine, these allies really would fight like crazy with minimal assistance...which is why we would happily give more to them.
In Ukraine its the US and UK special forces and hired gun mercenaries that are doing the real work.
Just as predicted.
Every successful operation against russki forces in Ukraine has been delivered by our forces, not the Ukrainians.
Zelensky knows this perfectly well, along with his current Swiss bank account balances, which is why he wants the more advanced US weapons systems...which will require more US troops to operate and maintain them...and of course you will need additional trained US manpower to create "safe" zones of operations for those advance systems...which will require more US frontline troops to carve out and extend those safe zones...US troops that will then be put on the offensive, you know, to give those "hardworking" and "totally competent" Ukrainians a break...and of course heavy US aircover will be necessary to establish air supremacy to protect those US troops on the ground...and gee, those russian air bases and missile batteries are in russia proper and will have to be taken out...
Yeah, its "impossible" to see where this going.
Meanwhile: The ChiComs just keep rolling along with coordinated geo-economic/military strategy....which funds their lobbyists in DC...with 10% for "the Big Guy".
Daniel12: "Unknown and Big Mike, take note: this is how you rewrite history. It's been a whole 60 years since the Cuban missile crisis, so you can now suggest sending nukes to an island right next to a geopolitical opponent as a simple, cheap, and easy solution."
Just this Oct our own Defense Dept announced its plans to speed up deployment of our upgraded B61-12 nukes to Europe...
...but they wanted to assure everyone it has nothing to do with Ukraine and we would never dream of putting tbose upgraded nukes into Ukraine or anywhere near there.
Of course not! Pish posh! Perish the thought!
"Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Holodomor genocide."
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the role of Ukrainian hyper nationalists in that "genocide" or the millions of other citizens in other Soviet Republics who also died in that famine caused by the Georgian, Joseph Stalin and his moronic communist economics. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the role of Ukrainians hyper nationalists in the Holocaust, rounding up Poles and Jews and sending them to death camps or just shooting them on the spot and burning their villages. Did you know that part of Poland fell into Ukrainian hands in the Hitler Stalin Pact, and that the Ukrainian nazi collaborators ethnically cleansed that zone? Stephan Bandera, who was a leader in this cleansing is a national hero in western Ukraine to this day.
Open a fucking history book, one not written by apologists for the Hitler-loving Ukrainian nationalists. Zelensky is a figurehead, sent around the globe like an organ grinder's monkey, tin cup in hand, collecting money and weapons for the people running the war and running Ukraine.
Daniel12: "Responses aside -- we need to be super skeptical at every turn about endless blank checks for war. I am thankful that there is starting to be real pushback from both right and left on never ending war spending."
LOL
There is zero pushback of any note from the left, and any pushback from the traditional liberals has led the lefties to declare those traditional liberals far-right Putin apologists.
"Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Holodomor genocide."
Also, I definitely don't think that the US should get involved in blood feuds between slavs, avenging wrongs done when the region was run by long-gone Soviets.
Daniel12: "No, Republicans these days don't fantasize specifically about Putin, they fantasize about hard right dictatorships. Starting with Viktor Orban and Hungary."
"hard right dictatorship" = Doesn't allow Soros free rein and unlimited immigration
BTW, here's a link to the 2019 letter 40 democratical lawmakers sent to then Secretary of State Mike Pompeo complaining about the Ukrainian-Nazi Azov Battalion and US funding:
That's right. 40 Democratical lawmakers who, in 2019, didn't want to fund any Nazi battalions.
From the democratical letter:
“For Example, the Azov Battalion is a well-known ultranationalist militia organization in Ukraine that openly welcomes neo-Nazis into its ranks. The group is so well-known, in fact, that the 115th Congress of the United States stated in its 2018 omnibus spending bill that ‘none of the funds made available by this act may be used to provide arms, training or other assistance to the Azov Battalion.’ The United Nations has chronicled human rights abuses and incidents of torture in this group’s relatively short history. Despite these facts, Azov has been recruiting, radicalizing, and training American citizens for years according to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
The Christchurch, New Zealand massacre was a turning point for counterterrorism efforts. In his manifesto, the shooter claimed he had trained with the Azov Battalion in Ukraine, and he routinely wore a neo-Nazi symbol associated with them. Both the Poway, CA and El Paso, TX shooters said they were directly influenced by the terrorism committed at Christchurch. The link between Azov and acts of terror in America is clear.”
....but now it's all okay because they promised not to be nazi's anymore...(wink wink)
To list all of the hilarious and debunked lies and conspiracies Drag Queen has pushed would deplete the known pixel reserves of Earth.
I forgot to mention the efforts of the UN.
The isolationist wing of the GOP crawled under a rock after Pearl Harbor and stayed there through the Cold War, but they’re back, as belligerent and foolish as ever. No, I am not surrendering the GOP to the new Lindbergs. The world will not be a better place for the US with Putin and Xi calling the shots while we hunker down in Fortress America.
“Mischaracterization is a prerequisite for our Keyboard Warrior Heroes.”
Good grief! Drag Queen is the master of mischaracterization. This has been Drago’s modus operandi for years, or he even outright lies. He is projecting again to take the focus off of his own relentless mischaracterizations of people and events here on these threads.
Trump's phony macho traitors Cucks and Putin apologists hardest hit... unexpectedly
Do you ever get tired of being a tedious, boring asshole?
Thwarting Russian Empire 3.0 is not a bad thing.
Putin paid Trump to scuttle NATO before mobilizing. Trump failed. Once Don and Vlad fucked up the election and the coup attempt, Putin had to go it alone. Trump then gave him two thumbs up and green lighted the brilliant genius Ukraine invasion of peacekeepers.
When exactly was it that all the anti-Soviet Republicans became pro-Putin Republicans.
When exactly was it all you Code Pink thugs became such war-mongers?
Being opposed to spending billions of dollars on a war that gains us nothing doesn't make anybody Pro-Putin.
Why can't you get that through your thick skull?
Republicans didn’t have this sort of affinity for Putin/Russia before Trump.
And we still don't. But you did.
Now, here's a nice, new, shiny Reset Button to stick somewhere.
Maybe it'll give you more flexibility.
Putin is no different than Hitler who claimed he wanted “Lebensraum” for ethnic Germans in Eastern Europe.
Or the Irish who want all of Ireland to be under one Government. Or Poles who wanted all Polish speaking people to part of Poland. Or French who wanted all the Frenchmen in Alscae-Lorraine back in France. Or the Spainards who wanted Spain free of the Moors. Or....
Remember, none of this would have happened if Trump was in office. Trump's bombing in Syria where there were Russians stationed, Biden's disastrous pull out from Afghanistan, and Trump's warning to Europe not to be dependent on Russia would have kept the Russians from invading Ukraine.
walter @ 12:42 A very strong second place.
I think some American citizens need to understand that there's little difference between treason and some of this subversive talk about our Commander in Chief. Oh, and not supporting our noble allies, the Ukrainians.
Althousians: Don't give aid and comfort to the Russkies. Don't betray our noble flag. Don't betray Democracy. Or our President, who we all support in this time of war. Follow our democractically elected leaders, Mitch, Nancy, Kevin, and Chuck. All fine upstanding Americans who believe in Democracy.
Final words. All real Americans had a tear in their eye and a Ukrainian flag pin in their lapel, as they watched that brave fighter for Democracy, Mr. Zelensky give his speech. If only we could have given him $100 billion and a boatload of American boys willing to give those Ruskiess what for!
Of course, there were a few shirkers, malcontents, and unpatriotic elements who refused to give him the standing ovations he deserved. Hopefully the FBI is investigating.
"Republicans didn’t have this sort of affinity for Putin/Russia before Trump."
I think is is more hostility towards Ukraine, I blame the scummy Vindman brothers for that. I'll also note that the Biden administration was willing to overlook the invasion until it failed and the realpolitik approach became embarrassing.
Russia should have calculated that it is better to remain peaceful and be thought powerful, than to go to war and prove the opposite.
Inga said...
Putin is no different than Hitler who claimed he wanted “Lebensraum” for ethnic Germans in Eastern Europe.
No Putin is more like Stalin. Nobody here supports Putin.
Zelensky is the one using Nazi paramilitaries. Zelensky is the one acting like Hitler.
40 democrats refusing to send military aid to Azov battalion in 2019 because they are Nazis.
But if we point out what a hypocritical piece of shit you are you fluff about saying we support Putin.
It is what dishonest gullible idiots like you do.
You support ethnic cleansing.
You are just a terrible person.
jim5301 said...
When exactly was it that all the anti-Soviet Republicans became pro-Putin Republicans. Seemed to happen overnight. Why did the Soviet empire with its expansionist goals and bloody dictators pose a greater threat to American security and way-of-life than the Russian empire with its expansionist goals and bloody dictators?
It happened in the minds of dishonest shitheads like you who support actual Nazi's and support ethnic cleansing.
Just 3 years ago democrats were refusing to send aid to the Ukraine.
But you are too dishonest and really just too shitty of a person to take responsibility for what you support so you have to make up lies about people who disagree with you.
Douglas B. Levene said...
The isolationist wing of the GOP crawled under a rock after Pearl Harbor and stayed there through the Cold War, but they’re back, as belligerent and foolish as ever. No, I am not surrendering the GOP to the new Lindbergs. The world will not be a better place for the US with Putin and Xi calling the shots while we hunker down in Fortress America.
Trump kept Russia from invading it's neighbors. We support leaders who prevent war.
Biden failed to keep Russia from invading it's neighbors. You support leaders who start wars.
Then you say stupid shit about isolationism because you are dishonest and not very bright.
You are just a stupid person.
Drago, a hard right dictatorship (well, any dictatorship) does this:
Hundreds of private Hungarian news outlets have been simultaneously donated by their owners to a central holding company run by people close to the far-right prime minister Viktor Orban, cementing Mr. Orban’s grip on the Hungarian news media.
If approved by the country’s regulatory authorities, which are led by an official appointed by Mr. Orban, the deal will place most leading private Hungarian outlets under the control of a single, state-friendly entity, in a move that is unprecedented within the European Union, according to Freedom House, a global rights watchdog that analyzes press freedom.
This sort of stuff gets you invited to CPAC. The new right's wet dream.
If I had to choose which of Inga's most debunked lies was my favorite, it would be a difficult choice to select just one.
The transparently false (and proven in court with under oath testimony by the hoaxer perpetrators) Alfa Bank-Trump Tower secret server pinging communications thing certainly ranks right up there.
The hoax russian bounties on US soldiers soldiers lie is close in rank to the debunked "suckers and losers" hoax and both could be top ten.
Inga's continued insistence that russia collusion happened AND the hoax dossier was "proven" true absolutely rate a mention.
And there are so very many others but I'd like to keep this in a more humorous vein, so I'll mention one that Inga moronically revisited just in the last day or so and one where she added an additional twist, just to spice the lie up I guess, and its the "Trump lunged for the steering wheel of the Beast" debunked lie.
But Inga made it even "better"! Inga now claims Trump literally grabbed the Secret Service driver by the throat!!
LOL
I mean, why not just say that Trump pulled a gun on the Secret Service agent while threatening his family? If you're going to go to the trouble of lying to support your team, why not just go all the way?
Funnist bit of all? Inga STILL believes in every single one of the above. Go ahead and ask her if you dont believe it...though I admit it seems almost impossible for anyone to be that delusional, but there you go.
It would be nice if all the Zelinskyy-haters here would try to get the basic facts straight. As it is, they tend to sound like Cliff Clavin. Examples:
1. 'tim in vermont' says (7:56am) that "Zelensky and his Ukrainian cronies made up 40% of the oligarchs in the Panama Papers". That is a bald-faced lie. The Panama Papers were leaked in 2016, and specifically name Petro Poroshenko, then half-way through his six-year term as Prime Minister of Ukraine. Volodymyr Zelenskyy didn't even declare his candidacy for the job until the last days of 2018. He and Poroshenko were never "cronies" and he had nothing to do with P's corruption. In fact, he ran as the anti-corruption candidate.
2. 'M Jordan' says (8:11am) that if it weren't for the Russian invasion of Ukraine "the US economy might be roaring out of a recession". With Joe Biden and the usual gang of idiots in charge? Hahahaha! Another 50+ million to spend would have been spent on something else within weeks.
3. Unknown (9:14am): "the fact still remains [Putin] didn’t invade Ukraine, he entered the 2 breakaway regions at their request". Liar. In 2014 he sent a KGB colonel born in Moscow to start the violence in the Donbass; In 2022, he sent a huge army across the border into several oblsasts that had no "breakaway" areas at all, including Kyiv by way of Belarus. The only capital he captured was Kherson, but he also grabbed large parts of Zaporizhzhia, Kharkiv, Sumy, and Chernihiv oblasts, smaller parts of Mykolaiv. Who was he protecting there? Note also that pushing Belarus into helping the invasion made Lukashenko a war criminal: his chances of dying of natural causes have dropped enormously, and if he achieves that, it will most likely be in a cell in The Hague.
The only way Putin would ever allow Ukraine to be 'neutral' as he demands is if they allow the Russian army free passage on their way to Transnistria or anywhere else they wish to go at any time. In other words, a puppet, like Bela Rus.
4. 'tim in vermont' (1:40pm) calls the perpetrators of the Holodomor the "long-gone Soviets". If they're so "long-gone", why did the Russians put up a brand-new statue of Lenin in Mariupol after crushing all resistance and murdering tens of thousands of civilians? The only reason it made the news is that some patriotic Ukrainian splashed red paint on it while the Russians weren't looking. Lenin murdered far more people than Stephan Bandera ever did, yet somehow it's OK for people to admire him still.
Dr Weevil: "It would be nice if all the Zelinskyy-haters here would try to get the basic facts straight."
Not Zelensky haters. Just not Zelensky worshippers who declare Zelensky a combination George Washington/Winston Churchill.
Maybe get that straight.
Or don't. Whatever.
Daniel12: "Drago, a hard right dictatorship (well, any dictatorship) does this:..."
LOL
You just described Zelensky to a tee, who also outlawed opposition parties, imprisoned without trial opposition leaders, shut down the opposition press and TV stations and shut down churches and imprisoning their priests.
I suspect that last part is what you lefties most adore.
chuck said...
"Republicans didn’t have this sort of affinity for Putin/Russia before Trump."
I think is is more hostility towards Ukraine, I blame the scummy Vindman brothers for that.
*******************
Sure. Republicans know nothing of the centuries-old conflicts between the Ukrainians and the Russian Empire, the USSR and the Russian Federation that succeeded it.
All we know are the admittedly scummy Vindmans the Dems tried to use to impeach Trump..
It's a knee-jerk sort of thing, especially the jerk part.
And it's all "affinity"---nothing about complexity, nuance, skepticism, real-world geopolitical dynamics, leading to a "pox on both their houses", and an unwillingness to ignore American borders while pouring billions into protecting Ukraine's.
SNORT
Talking about "un-American" attitudes, I find it especially galling that some Americans support the idea of One United Centralized Ukraine, put forth by Kievan regime. Obviously, Ukrainians are bitterly divided, as demonstrated both by Maidan uprising and Donbass resistance. It is understandable that Kievan regime is pushing the idea of One Ukraine. However, I would expect that any American, born in raised in the Federal Union, would support limited regional autonomy within a Federal political network, overseen by Central government. Such a system is probably the greatest US political accomplishment. And yet, why would any Americans deny the benefits of it to Ukraine? Why would they support the idea of a centralized, old Soviet/Nazi style political apparatus to rule over Ukraine?
Captain America, also known as Achilles is brave, smart, honest, good and the ultimate patriot. We should all strive to be as brave, smart, honest, good and patriotic as Achilles thinks he is.
Dr Weevil said...
It would be nice if all the Zelinskyy-haters here would try to get the basic facts straight.
Let us test the honesty of Dr Weevil.
True or False:
Zelensky has jailed all of his political opponents.
Zelensky has jailed the free media in Ukraine.
Zelensky and the US are now funding and arming the Azov battalion.
Nobody here is arguing that Putin is a good guy. He will be dead soon and that will make me happy.
The problem here is dishonest shitheads like you making shit up about what the people who disagree with you think.
You are making shit up about us because you cannot look in the mirror and be honest about who and what you support.
Daniel12 said...
Drago, a hard right dictatorship (well, any dictatorship) does this:
Hundreds of private Hungarian news outlets have been simultaneously donated by their owners to a central holding company run by people close to the far-right prime minister Viktor Orban, cementing Mr. Orban’s grip on the Hungarian news media.
Zelensky skipped that step when he arrested the media in Ukraine.
He did that right after he arrested his political opponents.
Howard said...
Putin paid Trump to scuttle NATO before mobilizing. Trump failed. Once Don and Vlad fucked up the election and the coup attempt, Putin had to go it alone. Trump then gave him two thumbs up and green lighted the brilliant genius Ukraine invasion of peacekeepers.
I think Howard is starting to realize how stupid the leftist look right now.
Blogger Howard said...
Putin paid Trump to scuttle NATO before mobilizing. Trump failed. Once Don and Vlad fucked up the election and the coup attempt, Putin had to go it alone. Trump then gave him two thumbs up and green lighted the brilliant genius Ukraine invasion of peacekeepers.
Howard, you and Inga keep posting these DNC memos as if they were gospel. I find it hard to believe that you think the Steele fiction was worthwhile. I have no doubts about Inga as she is, at best, dull normal. Any more stupid comments like this and I will have to accept that you and Inga are two peas in a pod.
from TODAY'S WSJ
https://www.wsj.com/articles/europe-is-rushing-arms-to-ukraine-but-running-out-of-ammo-11671707775?mod=hp_lead_pos6
Europe, home to some of the world’s largest weapons manufacturers, is struggling to produce enough ammunition for Ukraine and for itself,
Ukraine’s battle against the Russian invasion is consuming ammunition at rates unseen since World War II. Kyiv’s forces have been firing around 6,000 artillery shells a day and are now running out of antiaircraft missiles amid a relentless aerial onslaught by Russia,
Ukraine uses up to 40,000 artillery shells of the NATO caliber 155mm each month, while the entire annual production of such projectiles in Europe is around 300,000
“European production capacity is grossly inadequate,” Mr. Strnad said. Even if the war were to stop overnight, Europe would need up to 15 years to resupply its stocks at current production rates, he said.
The resident dullard:
A good many people here still express more appreciation and loyalty to Putin than to our own government, that is an important part of Trumpism. Republicans didn’t have this sort of affinity for Putin/Russia before Trump
Dullard does not remember the famous "Recall Button" of Obama and Hillary. Trump started no wars and settled the middle east with the Abraham Accords, which Biden's handlers are trying to disrupt.
Nobody is expressing "loyalty to Putin." He is a nasty oligarch who has harmed normal Russians much the way LBJ harmed normal Americans. We have no strategic interest in Ukraine. We are technically bankrupt and sending billions to country that is not worth it. Another stupid Ingagram.
whatever you say, Johnny.
jim5301 said...
When exactly was it that all the anti-Soviet Republicans became pro-Putin Republicans. Seemed to happen overnight.
___________________
First, I suggest you take that "pro-Putin" slur and stuff it back into the orifice it came out from. There is literally not a single "pro-Putin" statement in this whole thread or any other threads I visited on this blog. There are some posters explicitly praising Zelensky or Biden, but not a single example of praise for Putin as far back as I can recall. Being critical of the official pro-Kievan propaganda is not at all similar to being "pro-Putin".
Second, as far as purportedly changing anti-Soviet attitude, USSR ceased to exist 30 years ago but its spectral legacy continues to wreak havoc in the world. Take the war in Ukraine. Did you notice that Kievan regime insists on the exact preservation of the borders set up by Soviet commissars? This war is simply a dirty fight between two old Soviet subjects about the old Soviet borders. People refusing to care about old Soviet conflicts are perfectly consistent with their old anti-Soviet positions. Personally, I abhorred all things about USSR, including its cynical manipulation of borders between ethic groups that split apart people from similar ethnicities and forced them into unions with other groups that often hated them. That was deliberate "divide and rule" policy, calculated to perpetuate regional and ethnic divisions in order to ensure Communist Party hegemony. You can see at everywhere over old USSR domains, with all the regional fighting still going on unabated.
We should all quote “foreign service officers” as if they own the truth, like the senile coot does. The foreign service officer that the senile coot so looked up to that he quoted him about a “Covid hoax”, lied and smeared an American nun by the name of Sister Dianna Ortiz. She was raped and tortured by American backed Guatemalan Security Forces. The senile coot’s foreign service officer also emailed Clinton to tell her he was “sacrificing a chicken to Moloch” in his backyard.
The name of his foreign service officer is Lewis Amselem. That is the type of person the senile coot looks up to and quotes.
Achilles (7:48pm) demands that I answer some yes-or-no questions, though he can't be bothered to say whether he agrees that the four lies I had just called other people on are in fact lies. For instance, is Zelenkskyy so much as mentioned in the Panama Papers, or did 'tim in vermont' lie about that? Does Achilles think it's OK to tell lies about people, as long as you hate them?
So, for his first yes-or-no demand: "Zelensky has jailed all of his political opponents." All of them? The answer is NO, obviously NO. For instance, Petro Poroshenko, his predecessor, whom he defeated in the last election, and who quite likely should be in jail for gross corruption, was just seen walking around free a couple of days ago, with Russian drones fly overhead, looking like he wants to run for office again and needs to demonstrate courage and patriotism to win votes. That alone means that Z. has not in fact jailed "all" of his political opponents. He hasn't even banned most of them, much less jailed them.
Indeed, it's easy enough to look at Wikipedia's "List of political parties in Ukraine" and find five opposition parties with 20+ members each in parliament, and three more "parliamentary groups" with 11-23 members each, two of the latter being successors of the largest banned party, so those voters are still represented.
Should I go on and tell whether I agree with Achilles' other statements? Why bother? a. I'm not his performing monkey and will not dance at his command. b. He's already disgraced himself with his contemptible lie about "jailing all of his political opponents". And his lies about Zelinskyy demonstrate that he (like Drago) is in fact a whole lot closer to a 'Zelinskyy hater' than I have ever been to a 'Zelinskyy worshipper'. Just for the record, I have never bought, and never will buy, a votive candle with a human being's face on it - not Michael Avenatti, not Stacey Abrams, not Ruth Bader Ginsberg (though I was born on her 205h birthday). Worship is for divinities, not humans.
Candide: "And yet, why would any Americans deny the benefits of it to Ukraine? Why would they support the idea of a centralized, old Soviet/Nazi style political apparatus to rule over Ukraine?"
When you are skimming billions off of US financial assistance its easier to deal with 1 corrupted central boss.
Dr Weevil: "And his lies about Zelinskyy demonstrate that he (like Drago) is in fact a whole lot closer to a 'Zelinskyy hater' than I have ever been to a 'Zelinskyy worshipper'."
False.
You are demonstrably more a Zekensky worshipper than I am a Zelensky hater.
I view all of these cats similarly. They are all helplessly corrupt authoritarians in that part of the world. So I focus on whats best for the US, and that is most certainly not $100+ Billion...and we all know its going to go much higher with even more US personnel presence on the way.
So, continue on with your Zelensky worship, funding their coming status as a permanent US client state all the while ignoring the only real long term existential threat: the ChiComs with their plan and capability for global hegemony. Unlike the russkus who couldnt even project enough power to keep 2 squadrons operationally effective in Syria.
Russia Collusion Truther and Hillary/FBI Hoax Dossier Dead Ender Inga: "We should all quote “foreign service officers” as if they own the truth, like the senile coot does."
LOL
You've spent the last 6 years worshipping the hoax dossier which was bought and paid for by Hillary that was prepared by a failed British foreign service officer from the drunken hoaxy rantings of 2 russki nationals!
Too funny.
You retain the title of Least Self-Aware Poster Of All Time.
Which is something considering how much competition comes from the left.
Oops, RBG's 20th birthday, not 205th, duh!
By the way, all the people claiming on various threads that the U.S. is paying all of Ukraine's bills for weapons, ammunition, economic needs, and NATO isn't pulling its weight, should check the actual numbers as percentage of GDP here. If you're too lazy to follow the link, the U.S. is in fact 9th most generous, a hair behind Canada (#8). The U.K. (#6) is about 10% more generous. That's three wealthy countries. The other seven in the Top Ten are all much poorer and closer to Ukraine: Czechia and Slovakia (#7 and #10), Poland (#3), and Estonia (#1), Latvia (#2), and Lithuania (#4). At #14, Germany is about 3/5ths as generous as the U.S. by GDT, but it's such a huge economy it's one of the biggest total contributors. By the way, the numbers show that Poland and Lithuania have contributed proportionally more than twice as much as the U.S., Estonia and Latvia more than four times.
Sure. Republicans know nothing of the centuries-old conflicts between the Ukrainians and the Russian Empire, the USSR and the Russian Federation that succeeded it.
It is not Republicans who gutted any teaching of history in schools. Not to mention math and any other topic that requires thought and some reading.
In 1939, Poland was not a democracy. There had been a coup and it was being run by a military junta. France and Britain could have revoked their treaty with Poland because of that, but they didn’t. Hitler and Stalin thought nobody would do anything if they attacked and divided Poland. On Stalin’s side, he was right, but Britain and France declared war on Germany. They had come to see that German aggression had to be countered or it would never end.
The situation was similar in Asia. When Japan attacked China, the Chaing Kai-shek government was a semi-fascist corrupt dictatorship. His army had actually been trained by the Germans. The US unofficially supported him because the Japanese were considered to be worse. Events proved that to be true. The point is aggressors have to be stopped.
Ukraine does not have to be pure as the driven snow to deserve US support. Of course that support needs to be reasonable and well managed. But it is in our interest and the world’s interest to counter Russian aggression.
These guys. They praise Orban, you point out that Orban literally ended private media in his country, and boom they're off to some illuminati shit about Zelensky, the Jewish Nazi, with Soros, the other Jewish Nazi.
Same as always, bouncing from one wild insane made up accusation to another, just moving on when they get called out. Election 2020, crypto, Ukraine, whatever.
Dr Weevil said..
This isn't a morality tale.
You support ethnic cleaning.
You support paramilitaries killing Zelensky's political opponents.
This is a war with no good guys. Deal with it.
Inga said...
Captain America, also known as Achilles is brave, smart, honest, good and the ultimate patriot. We should all strive to be as brave, smart, honest, good and patriotic as Achilles thinks he is.
It must hurt a little bit inside you realize how pathetic and hypocritical you are. Even someone with as shriveled and broken a soul as you.
There are at least 20 lies you have clung to to attack me and other Trump supporters in the last several years.
Now you pretend I support Putin somehow. You have to make things up because you are such a dishonest person and you can't face the truth.
And every time you just look more gullible and twisted.
You know I don't support Putin in any way and I will be glad when he is dead. By attacking someone like me by saying I support Putin just makes you a terrible dishonest person.
I stop reading Weevil at his first bone headed comment.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/03/revealed-anti-oligarch-ukrainian-president-offshore-connections-volodymyr-zelenskiy
Sorry, Pandora Papers.
“Even someone with as shriveled and broken a soul as you.”
We should all have souls that Achilles deems worthy. Of course God loves me, that’s the only higher power I’m concerned with. Achilles’ power of discernment over the quality of others’ souls just can’t match God’s, but he can continue to try to elevate himself to godly status, alas he is only mortal. God loves him too, good thing, because he must be pretty hard to love on the human side of things.
“Ukraine does not have to be pure as the driven snow to deserve US support. Of course that support needs to be reasonable and well managed. But it is in our interest and the world’s interest to counter Russian aggression.”
Well said! Thanks for that cogent comment, ken in tx.
REasonable and managed... I'm hearing that only 10% of US military hardware and advanced weaponry in Ukraine can be accounted for and that Ukrainians don't know how to use it or maintain it.
weee.
Still waiting for Wray's FBI and the CIA to take out Putin. LOL.
Oh wait - they are too busy playing Putin's Democrat Party gestapo back home.
Danie12--Those Antiwar lefties are as committed to the cause as those Republican pols opposed to excssive government spending are to their cause. Strong letter to be rescinded.
Profiles in Courage.
Achilles accuses me of supporting ethnic cleansing. I support supplying the Ukrainian armed forces with the weapons they need to stop the blatant ethnic cleansing, genocide, and other war crimes the Russians have been committing in Ukraine for just about 10 months now. Achilles opposes doing anything to stop Russian genocide, but pretends, like the shit-eating slug he is, that he also opposes what Putin's doing, while making sure to do so in a totally ineffectual and pro-forma way.
It's fine with Achilles if the Russians bomb, shell, and drone civilian neighborhoods every night, aiming particularly at hospitals and schools, heating plants, electric substations and transformers, and water and sewer plants. Russian TV propagandists openly say that they want to make all Ukrainians either emigrate to western Europe, or die of hunger, thirst, cold, and epidemics caused by unclean conditions. Blatant war crimes, and just fine with Achilles. He swears he doesn't hate Zelenskyy or love Putin, he just supports everything a Putin-lover or a Zelenskyy-hater would support. Pure coincidence!
It's fine with Achilles that every city or town recaptured from the Russians has mass graves, torture chambers, crippled victims of torture, lots of raped women and girls, and anti-personnel mines spread all over civilian neighborhoods to keep the killing going after the Russians are gone.
It's fine with Achilles if the Russians draft ethnic Ukrainians in areas they occupy, and force them to go into battle to kill their fellow Ukrainians or be killed by them.
It's fine with Achilles if the Russians have kidnapped hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian civilians, confiscated their passports, and taken them thousands of miles away to Siberia with little hope of ever returning.
It's fine with Achilles if the Russians have 'adopted' tens of thousands of Ukrainian children into Russian families, telling them their Ukrainian parents didn't love them and didn't want them any more. The woman running the program was openly bragging a few months ago that all of the kids started out cursing Putin and saying they wanted to go home, but "now they've settled down". How much of that settling down was done by starving them, how much by beating them, is unclear.
It's fine with Achilles if the Russians steal all the exhibits from all the museums they capture, even the animals out of the zoos, or if they just burn down the museums so they can pretend that the Ukrainians have no culture. That is a form of genocide: the cultural form.
As for 'tim in vermont', he stops reading me whenever he's refuted, so he can go ahead and lie the already-refuted lies all over again. He rarely has to read far to find an obstacle. Another shit-eating slug.
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