২৩ সেপ্টেম্বর, ২০২২
"If I am simultaneously bankrupting and killing myself to make karate happen for one child, uptown, at 4pm, and French, downtown, for the other..."
"... I want to see results. Fun is an inadequate metric.... I want some kind of externalised measure of success. The business model for child activity centres in the city understands and exploits this intuitively.... What was this compulsion to furnish them with a suite of accomplishments like tiny Regency ladies in a Jane Austen novel? Why not needlepoint?
We quit violin. (Take the feeling you get when someone cancels a dinner and quadruple it.) We opted out of taekwondo (initial enthusiasm, followed by endless weekly foot-dragging). We’re about to exit dance (loved it, then didn’t love it). I put it into Google: 'What’s the opposite of a tiger?' Google suggests jellyfish. Jellyfish parenting – boneless, diaphanous, endlessly flexible. I’m almost there...."
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French and karate?
She should hire Jean-Claude Van Damme.
A two-fer : )
Then there is parenting that provides the child a world view that speaks of free will but teaches the need to closely pay attention to what kinds of free will choices result in in feeling dark, angry, depressed, discontent, lonely, or broken, and what kinds of choices result in feeling fulfilled, joyful, light, happy, connected to others, and healed.
Engaging in art - whether visual, musical, culinary, or marshal - is an overpay to how you feel inside. It is better to be at the tai-kwan-doh class feeling happy and connected, than feeling depressed and lonely.
LOL re needlepoint. Some girls in my daughter's school had a brief enthusiasm for knitting. It lasted about a week for my daughter. There are classes and you can definitely turn your daughter (or son, I suppose, if you want) into an accomplished knitter.
Let your kids do what they want to do...don't push them into things you think will benefit them...or will satisfy your vanity. For kids, "fun" is the only reason most kids will pursue any activity, and sufficient in itself as a motive for their participation. If they're having fun, then mission accomplished! even if you can't see measurable improvement in their competence at the particular activity. If your kids feel you are expecting them to demonstrate their increased skill, they will resist and lose their interest in the activity, (assuming the interest was ever theirs to begin with).
That is the world we (or at least the upper middle classes) are living in now. If you grew up with Depression-era parents who just kept nagging you get a job you may not fit into this world (though maybe you managed to have kids and had to drive them around to all those lessons or have to do that for your grandchildren now).
For some it's the long game for the college application.
Ah, so my parent was a jellyfish! Always ahead of her time.
I really did need to be doing more than just school all those years before high school. But she said the clarinet would mess up my teeth, and the accordion teacher who came to the door was a lesbian.
So I watched TV instead.
We played all the sports, except baseball, as kids. Never had a coach or a referee, until Jr High. Little league baseball consisted of a coach the threw 5 baseballs at once, for outfield practice. I can count on one hand the number of parents that showed up at all the games combined. The reason kids cant get along is because they have always had a referee. Never had to agree to get along, in order to have fun.
Help your child cultivate friends outside of school settings- multiple friends getting together for play at regular times, but don't set an agenda. Give them the things they need for this play, sporting equipment, toys, etc. If you want your child to learn a musical instrument, for example, learn one yourself- children love to mimic what adults do.
During their school years, I'd sign my kids up for any activity (although only one activity at a time) on the condition that they agree to complete a full session or class schedule. After the initial session, they'd know if they were enthused enough about the activity to enroll for another, required, full session. Or not. And continuing in this or that activity was totally THEIR choice. I truly did not care what they chose to pursue or not pursue: their choice.
Over their school years, we went through a lot of single sessions in a lot of different activities, ...because how do you know unless you try, but they had to commit to finishing what they started, so it encouraged them to seriously set priorities.
I feel sorry for the children. My son wanted to quit taekwondo when he was a purple belt, but we made it very difficult for him to give up (you can't actually force a child to do much of anything). He ended up co-opting me into taekwondo classes, and now we are both 2nd Dan black-belts and he is an excellent instructor as a part time job. If you just allow children to search for their "true passion", they will decide that lying on the couch playing video games is it.
Ah, but "human capital" is not just about some series of "skills" but more complex. I suppose it is ironic that the high-order human capital skills are better developed by the child having more free-play time with others. I know I learned about about problem solving and teamwork when my friends and I were trying to "fix" something we'd done so we didn't have to face parental discipline.
This paper synthesizes what we have learned about human capital … into four stylized facts.
First, human capital explains a substantial share of the variation in labor earnings within and across countries.
Second, human capital investments have high economic returns throughout childhood and young adulthood.
Third, the technology for producing foundational skills such as numeracy and literacy is well understood, and resources are the main constraint.
Fourth, higher-order skills such as problem-solving and teamwork are increasingly economically valuable, and the technology for producing them is not well understood.
We have made substantial progress toward validating the empirical predictions of human capital theory. We know how to improve foundational skills like numeracy and literacy, and we know that investment in these skills pays off in adulthood.
However, we have made much less progress on understanding the human capital production function itself. While we know that higher-order skills “matter” and are an important element of human capital, we do not know why.
https://conversableeconomist.com/2022/09/15/some-human-capital-controversies-and-meditations/
It isn't about the kids 'wants and likes' all the time. Sure, interest is important, but so is skill development, kinesthetic AND character (persevere). The notion of 'do what you love' is misguided in a lot of ways. Rather, love what you do, how you do it. That is how you find meaning in the hard things.
Start a French karate school. Problem solved.
Completely different from my parents.
My mom circa 1958: "Go outside and play NOW. DO NOT come back into the house while my shows are on (As the World Turns and The Guiding Light). If you're thirsty use the hose - don't forget to turn it off. Now GO - as she held the door open and shooed the three of us - and assorted friends - into the front yard.
Gerbil socialization: keep women affordable, available, and taxable, and running on the wheel.
Do not let your kids choose anything. They actually crave to be told what to do and appreciate clearly delineated and strictly enforced boundaries. Fill up their days beyond school with physical activities, chores and homework. Whatever you do, make it easy and practical for the parents.
It's so tawdry to project your own ambition through your child, then enslave yourself to a grueling schedule and drive them to serve your ambition, and ensure that you and your family sacrifice pleasure and freedom for the sake of the future achievement of these new humans who were never allowed to grow into whatever it was they might have been. Why do this? This is an area of competition that's ripe for quiet quitting.
Ah. The ubiquitous partnership between modern, elite parents and their spoiled children searching for meaning in young lives that have none.
How rewarding that the journalist/jellyfish parent can write inane pieces for the leftmedia to give meaning where it would otherwise not exist.
'It's so tawdry to project your own ambition through your child, then enslave yourself to a grueling schedule and drive them to serve your ambition...'
We let our kids try everything to see what they liked.
Fortunately, they both loved almost all sports, so I figured out a way to coach most of the teams they were on.
That was awhile ago.
These days with ubiquitous cell phones and computer games, I'm afraid parents need to be a little more persistent to get little Johnny and Janey out of the damned house : )
I did as Colocomment. My kids could try out many things. However, we also had what we lovingly called "forced marches" or, in other words, nature hikes. The whining and complaints were legion, but all of my adult children now love hiking and the great outdoors. So I think there are different developmental demands. Skills take time but a child needs to have at least some natural bent toward the skill to develop love for the activity. Skills that had to be mastered earned money or screen time in our house. Skills where there was a bent were strongly encouraged. Trying out activities just to see were allowed. Forced marches were required.
JK Brown said...
9/23/22, 11:25 AM
How fun to see that someone else reads Timothy Taylor's "Conversible Economist" blog! It's one of my daily stops....
There are over 23,000 high schools in the USA. Most of them have a band- and most have a "best violinist". There about 1300 professional violisinst in the USA.
There are about 1700 professional football players- no minor leagus like baseball. Most of those 23,000 hgh schools have a best football player- who probablt isn't going into the NFL.
Professional swimmers? Are there any? The article wasn't behind a paywall, I read it. Yes, your child should learn how to swim- the basics. Why get them into competition?
As for sports that are carried on into adulthood- bowling, tennis (and other racquet sports), martial arts, and basketball probaby lead the list. Swimming is so so, usually it's just let's get in the surf and enjoy ourselve, or get in the pool and relax.
What does your child need to succeed in life? For the most part, being well rounded and able to do a lot of things, without actually being an expert in any.
I have 5 adult children, all doing well, 4 boys. For all, we required they take a martial art for a few years. Since karate schools are easier to find then judo, they all ended up in karate. Teaches self confidence.
And for the boys- Scouting. Wnat to learn how to swim? Summer camp. They'll get the basics. Swim requirements for 2nd and first class, then one of the required merit badges is either swimming, cycling, or hiking. All or mine got the swimming one. They all swim better then I do. Want to go further? Another either/or requirement Lifesaving or Emergency Preparedness. Actually, all 4 of mine got both. Want to go further? 2 became BSA certified lifeguards. Tougher requirments then ARC lifgueard certification.
Want them to learn how to cook? Scouting. The Scouts do all the cooking AND cleanup on weekend camping trips. Cooperation and teamwork? Scouts set up their own tents with help from each each other, and makes out the cooking and cleaning schedules. Leadership? Each Scout gets a shot at a leadership position if he (and now she) sticks around. If the troop is large- they might not gat a chance to be senior patol leader, but they'll be a patrol leader, or some other position withon the troop.
Firearms safety? Scouting. Bow and arrow? Scouting. The odds of them becoming "the best" in any of these? Minimal, but they'll have passing familiarity with them.
The 14 required merit badges for Eagle: (a) First Aid, (b) Citizenship in the Community, (c) Citizenship in the Nation, (d) Citizenship in Society, (e) Citizenship in the World, (f) Communication, (g) Cooking, (h) Personal Fitness, (i) Emergency Preparedness OR Lifesaving, (j) Environmental Science OR Sustainability, (k) Personal Management, (l) Swimming OR Hiking OR Cycling, (m) Camping, and (n) Family Life. Pretty good list of things a child should learn, isn't it?
And- you don't have to chase around all these schools and teachers and instructors. Once a week meetings, occasional weekend camping trips, and a week of summer camp each year.
I made my boys participate in Scouting until age 18. Two Eagles, two Life. And all 4 credit their experience in Scouts for later success in life. They've all used their Scouting skills in real life. The first aid skills have been used in real life, according to stories I've heard over the years, by virtually every Scout that's ever been in a troop. Knowing what to do averts panic...
There isn't a real job in the USA where putting "Eagle Scout" on the resume is a megative thing. And- you don't have to be a genius, you don't have to be the best at something. You simply have to persist, usually with some urging from a parent, and any Scout can become an Eagle. "I was the best left wing on the soccer team" isn't going to mean squat for most jobs, neither is "I can read music" or "I can play the violin" or "I made the swim team".
My experience from 30+ years ago is, first, that a parent may — and probably will — go through a number of after school and/or summer activities where their interest quickly peters out. Perhaps the child was interested because of a charismatic teacher. Or a friend is into the activity and raves about it. Or perhaps an older sibling is into the activity. Our younger son took up karate as soon as he was old enough for the dojo to accept him, because his older brother was very caught up in that martial art. The younger son didn’t stick with it, but that’s okay. And sometimes a child may be very interested in an activity, but not be all that good at it.
What’s great is when interest plus talent find each other.
The second consideration is that sometimes a child finds an activity where he or she really is interested, but the kid moves into a flat spot, and starts talking about quitting. It’s important for the parents to push the child to stick it out and see if the passion returns. (See whst “Old and slow” wrote at 11:21.)
Kids, lacking any experience, have no idea what skills will be useful over the long run. Music training is supposed to be useful in developing ability in mathematics - I hated practicing but did end up with some capability in mathematics. Physical coordination is extremely useful for developing "presence" so activities that promote coordination tend to have long term usefulness - dance, gymnastics, martial arts, etc. Finally, the most important skill with lifelng usefulness is self discipline. Knowing that skill can be developed in something they are initially poor at will help them down the road when faced with living on their own.
I've also thought that competition where there are winners and losers helps the kid learn to deal with the fact that things won't always go their way and certainly are unlikely to go there way if they don't put the effort in to perfect the skill involved.
But - parents get to choose how they raise their kids. As long as they aren't abusing them (and how do you draw the lines to define that?) there is little I should do to change their ways.
It's so tawdry to project your own ambition through your child, then enslave yourself to a grueling schedule and drive them to serve your ambition, and ensure that you and your family sacrifice pleasure and freedom for the sake of the future achievement of these new humans who were never allowed to grow into whatever it was they might have been.
Ideally, schools ought to give students a variety of ways to develop special talents. Too often they don't. That could be one reason parents push their kids. The other is of course, that it's not enough to get "good" test scores to get into a "good college." You need all the extracurricular bullshit, like you need a cause of one sort or another.
But I wouldn't have minded if, instead of giving me a trumpet and expecting me to learn or not learn by myself how to play it, they had gotten me the lessons I was expecting, even if it meant driving around a little. End of gripe.
'There about 1300 professional violisinst in the USA.'
I call bullshit.
Think of all the bands playing weddings and bar mitzvahs.
It might not be the New York Philharmonic, but it ain't chopped liver : )
Give a kid bagpipes and he'll annoy someone for the day.
Teach a kid to play bagpipes and he'll annoy people for a lifetime...
Oldest son tried baseball, football, soccer, lacrosse. Hated them or was indifferent. Tried roller hockey. Loved it. Migrated to ice. Loves it. Not very good but loves it.
My father had been fairly athletic and very musical, active in the Scouts (I think) and in JROTC (I know) in his youth, and was an assistant scout leader at our church (which he rarely actually attended). My older brother followed as far as playing some baseball, being an excellent junior golfer, and achieving Eagle (God & Country?) Scout rank.
But those were just phases, and after our father died he slid off the rails entirely and spent the rest of his life with the exception of a few years in the Army, lying, cheating, conniving, and defrauding others.
I was a much quieter and mellow person, even in the womb. And boy did my brother (he came back from the Army as Chuck) resent me showing up after almost four years as the spoiled apple of all eyes. Chuck made it clear that my interests were stupid and my prospects poor, and we NEVER (I mean NEVER EVER) enjoyed one another's company. He OD'd in 2004.
It wasn't hard for me to become the favorite son and grandson, even after two more. I'm the only one who was close to our Oma, and count myself fortunate that she and my aunt Louise (before SHE died young) took me to symphony concerts and operas, and even to Europe when I was 11 or 12.
In second grade I took piano lessons but would not practice; in seventh grade I took my father's old trombone to band class . . . but would not practice. They tried to teach me a lot of other things too, and my standardized test scores were always in the top few % . . . but I wouldn't study. It never occurred to me either, to try out for a team, or even pay attention to them. I never went to a game (and only one in college).
I spent one year in Scouts, with guys who I really didn't much like, and some of whom were pervs (like some of the adults).
It's possible that my father could have motivated me in ways that the womenfolk couldn't, of course, and when it came to fatherhood I had no role models at first hand. I didn't force, or motivate, my son much, I have to admit.
I did, and do, encourage him to pursue his graphic arts interests, and to be happy.
JL Oliver: Too Funny! We still call them forced marches with the grandkids. When the kids and grandkids were real little and would fall behind, we would warn them about the Banshee up in the trees waiting for the little child to fall behind so they could swoop down and eat them. Every noise in the forest was potentially the Banshee.
Forced marching in the woods hills and valleys is the key to mental and physical health. If kids and their parents were tasked to do this for one hour three days per week, the prescriptions for happy pills and happy meals would plummet to a crisis level.
Junior Lifeguards in California are psuedo paramilitary organizations where kids (ages 6-17) are forced to run to exhaustion in soft sand, swim for a mile or more in cold shark infested waters, compete in athletic events, make ocean rescues, learn first aid, surf and paddle, jump off the lifeguard building on the pier into the ocean...
Our overarching ambitions for our kids and grandkids was to make them strong, stable, fit, healthy, tough, resilient, capable, confidant, happy and smart. Trust me, they will thank you later.
Parents offer breadth. Children choose depth. Raising "our Posterity" is the hardest job you will ever choose, perchance love.
My daughter tried gymnastics, ballet and ice skating, then quit when it stopped being fun. Fine with me. She rejected soccer, because "there's lots of running." Since it also required me to get up early on Saturdays, I was fine with that. She took piano lessons for awhile, but I decided there was no point paying for it if she wasn't going to practice. "I'm not willing to pay money to make you miserable," I said. "I should be able to do that for free."
BTW, Tim Taylor ("Conversable Economist") was my colleague on the San Jose Mercury News editorial board. We're having dinner this week. I'll tell him he has fans on the Althouse blog.
How many people grow up to regret not using their inordinate amount of free time as a child to do things that they actually wanted to do as a child?
For us, scouting was more for the dads. When they were growing up it was the only way to get out of the city or off the farm. And the skills they learned came in useful in one war or another.
We already had too many distractions, and kids today have even more. Unstructured time tends to mean videogames and social media. They don't even go to the malls any more.
4H and FFA are said to be big minuses for admission to Harvard and its clones. Eagle Scout may be one as well.
I took a class once on resume writing. The instructor told us that the only extracurricular activities he allowed his clients to put on their resume were Eagle Scout (or the GS equivalent) and black belt in a martial art. He thought it an excellent demonstration of discipline and persistence. Judging from the other comments on this post, I am guessing many of you would agree.
She's discovering that children are mercurial in their likes?
Why do this? This is an area of competition that's ripe for quiet quitting.
It's a big business. There's a lot of pressure to join. I know of plenty of families that put down 10s of thousands of dollars to belong to a "travel" team for volleyball, soccer, or the dreaded "cheer".
Cheer seems to be a true racket. It requires coaching and outfits in the $100s, travel to far cities to participate in 3 minute routines which always results in a "trophy" no matter the skill level.
Not surprising that a Guardian writer would imagine that there are no activities for children except expensive ones that require parent escorts. Imagine the private transport needed only because these same gits make the streets and trains and entire cities unsafe with the policies and social norms they endorse for others.
It would be amusing to require a carbon footprint for college applications for miles commuted to magnet and charter schools far from the local hellhole ones, after-school programs, internships, flights overseas for enrichment or poverty porn, and so on.
Though it's not too much fun to watch other people ground up in the maw of such obvious schadenfreude.
A man said to the universe: "Sir, I exist!". "However," replied the universe, "The fact has not created in me. A sense of obligation.". ― Stephen Crane
This is how you respond when a kid says, “I’m bored.” You don’t have to fill every one of their - and your - spare moments with activities. (See also, “I can find some chores for you.)
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