Just before that riposte, they were talking about the documents seized at Mar-a-Lago, and he'd said:
What is very much like Trump is that, as soon as the administration sought to recover the boxes, he saw an opportunity to set up a test of strength against Biden — one that would stoke the paranoia of his supporters, rally wavering Republicans to his side and set up the Justice Department to fall on its face barring some spectacular disclosure. So my bottom line is that the Justice Department had better come up with something very damning, not just a charge relating to mishandling classified documents
If it doesn’t, it will be the fourth or fifth time in six years that the F.B.I. has meddled in politics only to cause irreparable damage to its own reputation.
Collins's response:
Congratulations, you’ve flung me into depression. I do agree with you that the story on Trump’s end is less likely a sinister plot than messy grabbiness, perhaps along with a reasonable paranoia that given the number of things he’s done wrong, there’d be evidence of something bad somewhere.
Notice that they both said the word "paranoia," but Stephens referred to the paranoia of Trump supporters — deliberately stoked by Trump — and Collins with the paranoia of Trump antagonists, who are afraid Trump has done something wrong.
Collins's paranoid Trump opponents are inferring that there's something more "sinister" than sloppy handling of documents because of all the other things they've seen — or believe they've seen —Trump do. Stephens' paranoid Trump supporters are inferring that the F.B.I. is sinister because of all the other things they've seen — or believe they've seen — the F.B.I. do.
ADDED: Many commenters are saying Collins wasn’t talking about paranoia in Trump antagonists but in Trump himself. I read it closely without seeing that, but now that it is suggested, I can see that idea and it seems more like something Collins would want to say, that he knows he’s done wrong and fears that evidence will be found. What a strange way to say that! Is as if Stephens influenced her to repeat the word “paranoia,” though it didn’t fit. She wanted to use it, perhaps to make Trump sound crazy, even as she backed away from it with the oxymoronic “reasonable.”
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129 comments:
You left out the "F them both" option. What a tedious pair.
Trump had complete legal authority to declassify anything he wanted.
The courts have reiterated this many times in cases with Clinton, Bush, and Obama.
Complete and unquestionable authority. Anything he wanted. Period.
It is impossible to legally charge him with mishandling documents because all he had to do was say "These are declassified." There is no world where Trump committed a crime stealing Classified documents.
I am not sure why Ann continues to pretend that these people are serious or intelligent or have any sort of point. This is all desperation and absurdity. It is gross. They are not beautiful people Ann. They are stupid idiots. Just because they don't have ads for toenail fungus treatments on their website doesn't make them smart.
But of course, the Trump antagonist's paranoia is reasonable while the Trump supporter's paranoia is only stoked by Trump. Please disregard all the evidence of bias, lies, and outright criminality they peddled over the last six years.
"I’ve always maintained that, with Trump, there are no deep, dark secrets: His absolute awfulness always stares you squarely in the face, like a baboon’s backside."
Said Bret Stephens in his conversation with Gail Collins, printed in the NYT.
Sorry I skipped over this part when reading the post.
This is why people read the New York Times.
They want to be a part of the elite tribe that looks down on the plebes. The only people that read the NYT's are class conscious douchebags who need constant reinforcement of their status because they are mediocre jerks who wouldn't be anything serious on their own.
I'm clearly in the "Trump was sloppy, but fear the FBI camp", but I'm still trying to figure out why Trump kept any documents. He could have just as easily photographed the documents and had them saved on encrypted storage. Since his defense is that he declassified them, then there is no crime in photographing them.
What am I missing? To what end does Trump keep the documents? Was the FBI raid the end, and the FBI are just dupes?
I would ask both Stephens and Collins to provide their own explanations of why the FBI's Crossfire Hurricane files still have not been declassified, even though Trump ordered them to be declassify while he still was the US President.
Imagine saying that and thinking that you just made a witty comment.
Calling DJT sloppy is all the Dems and their Media hoard have got. But that successful President is up against a totally destructive 2 year old tyrant in diapers attempting to destroy the USA to prove he can do it. And Red China laughs at how easy Biden was brought.
Another case of two libs agreeing that Trump had done lots of bad things without naming a single one. They extrapolate from their perception of Trump’s rude behavior to him being a presumed villain who breaks laws and does lots of bad things. It’s the stuff of the Grimm Bothers fairy tales. Mommy there’s a monster under my bed! These people have never grown up. Pathetic.
how about, Trump was less "sloppy" than most other Presidents, but the FBI* had it out for him?
FBI* Shield and Sword of the Party
That the DOJ sought and the FBI executed a general warrant from a magistrate is Trump's mendacity?
Bought, not brought. China only had to use their cheapest cocaine and youngest whores to make Hunter their own. The Big Guy just brags about getting away with that cheap of a sell out.
These News people are so passive aggressive that they believe action taken by the FBI was a passive setup by Trump. Trump didn’t even have to look at the documents to make the FBI look bad. That is Stephen’s argument along with “Trump is baboon poopie head”.
"one that would stoke the paranoia of his supporters"
After the last 6 years, why would Trump supporters be paranoid? These people are delusional.
‘…perhaps along with a reasonable paranoia that given the number of things he’s done wrong.’
Still waiting for that list of things he’s done wrong.
First thought: How many baboon's backsides has Bret Stephens been staring at?
My understanding is that Trump did send some documents to the National Archives. Is that true? Also, documents marked classified may have been declassified afterwards. And there is speculation that the documents don't relate to any Trump wrongdoing but to the misdeeds of his persecutors in the government.
Our Betters struggle to outdo each other in hyperbole, and like peacocks strutting for sex, they primp their feathers to show that they are the true royalty of the Trump-hatred club. You don't need to be a fan of Donald Trump to understand the depths of insecurity manifest in these preening, self-congratulatory mediocrities. They are the wallflowers in the dance of life, chosen for a brief moment to deliver the same message that ten thousand other middling nobodies have dispensed. Trump's great accomplishment is to reduce these spluttering buffoons to comical depths of absurdity in their struggle to maintain their bona-fides, all in hopes of a single pat on the head by some Democrat junior assistant to the third undersecretary of Bullshit.
When you hire Bret Stephens as your "American conservative journalist, editor, and columnist" (Wikipedia description), you are NOT doing conservatism correctly. Sorry, NYT.
Maybe the NYT should hire someone from west of the Hudson River, you know, someone who's actually lived in and knows about the god-forsaken fly-over country of the deplorables and semi-Nazi MAGA extremists. Just an idea.
Notice that for Collins the anti-Trump paranoia is "reasonable," while for Stephens the paranoia is being "stoked" by Trump. Stephens is aware of the FBI's misdeeds, but for him the "absolute awfulness" of Trump outweighs that. Collins and Stephens may both have some awareness that their attitude toward Trump has more to do with prejudices and emotions than with proven facts by neither will admit it.
I'm with Stephens. It seems to me that all politicians in high office are corrupt and incompetent to some degree. And it seems to me that most of their corruption and incompetence is hidden from us by the workings of the political establishment. It puts an event horizon around its members, and prevents information from getting out to us, the voters. Like a black hole of corruption, hidden by the establishment's political event horizon.
Trump, being outside the political establishment, and hated by the establishment, was not protected by this event horizon. Where a Romney or a Pelosi or a Harris will enjoy some measure of restraint from the press, and from the "leaks" of insiders, Trump gets nothing from the establishment. His incompetence and corruption is left on display for all to see.
And his corruption and incompetence is penny-ante, amateur-hour stuff, compared to what the protected politicians get up to. Like Michael Corleone, trying to buy his way onto the board of the Vatican's real estate empire, and discovering that they were a bigger organized crime outfit than he could ever imagine.
Wikipedia has it covered ...
Hanlon's razor is a saying that reads:
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
There are many similar sayings. One example is "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence", which has been attributed to science fiction author Robert Heinlein’s short story "Logic of Empire" in 1941 and erroneously to Napoleon Bonaparte.
Wikipedia
As usual, the options assume Republicans are either stupid or mendacious. How about this: Trump knew the documents were declassified, and everyone should fear the FBI as well as the rest of DOJ, since no one cares whether what Trump did was legal. All that matters is we drive the agenda somehow. Documents are sometimes declassified. If you think it takes someone other than Trump to declassify a document, tell me how that person's boss couldn't also declassify it.
Stephens: ". . . the Justice Department had better come up with something very damning[.]"
Yeah, get on it guys!
Something all the #nevertrumper's have in common: their reaction to Trump is highly emotional.
The conversation between Collins and Stephens starts with straight forward political commentary about things like the cost and value of a college constitution. Then the topic of Trump is raised and Stephens becomes a Trump-addled rage robot.
I have no emotional reaction to Trump. I voted 3rd party in 2016. I voted for Trump in 2020. I hope that Trump does not run in 2024 (too old), but if he does run, I will probably vote for him.
I am not sure why Ann continues to pretend that these people are serious or intelligent or have any sort of point. This is all desperation and absurdity. It is gross. They are not beautiful people Ann. They are stupid idiots
Same way the libs here just glide over the fact Trump had the authority to declassify any documents he wanted to. I wish Kash had finished organizing the Crossfire Hurricane docs and released them to the public before the raid because I think the DOJ’s motive in this fiasco was to recover and destroy evidence of FBI malfeasance. All the official reasons leaked sound like BS because they are BS. It’s an old fashioned CYA operation by people who unlike Trump have a lot to hide.
To regain trust, you have to go back to the beginning: the Democrats setting up Trump as a dirty trick in the 2016 primary (and co-opting the DNC on the other side); the refusal to accept the legitimate election result; and the whole Russia scenario. Once the Dems cleanse themselves of the people who did these things, we can start talking about trust.
"... reasonable paranoia that given the number of things he’s done wrong, there’d be evidence of something bad somewhere."
Given the number of things he's done wrong? Not the FBI? Not the Democrats in Congress? (think: Adam Schiff and his behind walls and closed doors meetings, his 'breathless' leaks to the press, his outright lying to the nation). Not the media itself? Most notably the Washington Post and the New York Times, primary recipients of faux leaks with the directive to amplify them, and primary culprits in censoring any news unfavorable to Dems, or favorable to Trump. Puleez, Gail. (I've long wondered- is she just stupid or does she play at being ignorant to keep her progressive cred up to date?).
And I love this one from Bret: "...set up the Justice Department to fall on its face barring some spectacular disclosure." As if they haven't spent the last 2 decades doing that just fine on their own? Particularly since 2016.
"With all the things we know he has done wrong, evidence of it is bound to turn up somewhere!" - Liberals... un-ironically.
The climb-down is beginning though the usual Trump-truthers will continue to insist he was sending docs to Putin.
Trump's trouser crease just doesn't give him a "semi," the way Obama's did.
’…but I'm still trying to figure out why Trump kept any documents.’
All presidents keep documents for various reasons.
None of the answers provided expresses my opinion. Are these people saying the DOJ's position is: Mommy, Trump made me hit him!
The "paranoia" of Trump supporters is that a loose cabal of enemies (the Clinton campaign or Democrats more generally, including state-level election officials, the Deep state including entrenched bureaucrats in the FBI and CIA, and influential members of the media -- NYT, WaPo, TV and cable News, ) have taken coordinated actions to keep Trump from being elected in 2016 and 2020.
The paranoia of Trump opponents is that Trump personally, and many close Trump advisors and family members, are actual agents of (or at least unknowing dupes serving the interests of) Russia, or other foreign countries.
Trump supporter paranoia has a pretty strong factual basis.
Trump oppponent paranoia does not.
Am I mis-stating the Trump opponent paranoia? Is there evidence stronger than Paul Manafort's conviction? What exactly were the policies adopted by Trump when in power that served the interests of foreign countries.
Donald Trump has only a vague idea of what’s in all of these documents. The notion that he read through boxes and boxes containing hundreds of documents with classification markings and chose to take these particular items strikes me as … unlikely....
Does anyone believe that ANY president personally reads through all the documents stuffed into boxes that they bring with them when they leave? Well, maybe Bush senior, but the rest of them? Does anyone seriously believe Obama read every single document in the boxes targeted for his presidential library in Chicago?
Do I think Trump is "sloppy" with documents? Sure. Do I think that is unique to that particular president? No way.
"You left out the "F them both" option."
The question is "How would you resolve the competing paranoias?" Your answer is sort of a refusal to resolve them but to just leave them to their paranoia. I think your position fits the first option best, which is the rejection of the paranoia and adopting a standoffish position. You can't expect survey options to use the same language you would. Really, I can't see how option #1 doesn't cover your reaction.
His flaws aside Trump's gift to the nation is that he has exposed the incredible extent of Democrat corruption. The troubling result of that is the shamelessness with which they wield it giving rise to concern about the integrity of the electoral process and/or the awareness of the American people.
Given the speed at which QuidProJoe's Administration and his Congress are destroying the economy, the military, border security, energy independence, geopolitical integrity and the Constitution, allowing them to continue is insane, stupid, ignorant or evil or some combination thereof.
It is not paranoid to notice.
"Really, I can't see how option #1 doesn't cover your reaction."
I mean, I do see one thing: You want to remain hotly emotional about it. I think the 2 paranoias are too emotional, so, yeah, I didn't think of the option of reject the 2 types of overemotionality while adopting a different overemotion for yourself. Is that your idea?
So my bottom line is that the Justice Department had better come up with something very damning, not just a charge relating to mishandling classified documents. If it doesn’t, it will be the fourth or fifth time in six years that the F.B.I. has meddled in politics only to cause irreparable damage to its own reputation.
I think this is exactly right. But a key question for Stephens and Collins to ponder is whether this phenomenon is unique to the FBI, or whether other organizations have had their reputations damaged, too.
For instance, the media?
We were told, for something like two years, that Trump was in secret cahoots with Putin. The people in the FBI pushed this dishonest fabrication. And the media reported these lies like puppets on a string.
You idiots in the media have reported these lies over and over, only to find out your anonymous sources are liars and knaves. So maybe in order to restore your reputation, you might start reporting the truth of "Crossfire Hurricane" and how wrong the FBI has been, and how wrong the media has been.
I think Collins is imputing paranoia to Trump, i.e. that Trump knows he has done things that are wrong and is paranoid that there may be evidence there.
If I can concern-troll the anti-Trump forces for a moment -- they really need to stop talking about Trump as though he's a uniquely horrible or corrupt threat to democracy or the republic or whatever. I have my own criticisms and reservations about Trump, but as soon as I hear that kind of hysterical rhetoric, I downgrade the credibility of the speaker several notches. If they really want to dispose of Trump as a political force, they need to stop engaging in these masturbatory fantasies about Trump as this world-historically awful figure opposed by the forces of light and goodness (viz them). It's so pathetic.
Rather than claim he's "authoritarian" or "facist," just say what he did that you disagreed with or that you thought transgressed unwritten norms. And if it was just "he had a call with the Ukraine and pushed them to announce their investigation of Burisma," or "he had a call with Georgian authorities and pushed them to refuse to certify the election results" or "he refused to concede defeat in the 2020 election and claimed it had been rigged," at some point, you just have to accept that people like me, while we may not approve of this conduct, see it as a difference of degree not kind -- not categorically different from the corrupt and unprincipled nonsense other politicians engage in.
Unless you can link him directly to the planning and execution of an actual plot to assassinate members of Congress and the Vice President -- the kind of thing one would expect based on the hysterical rhetoric around the Capitol riot -- you need to tone that rhetoric down. And of course, the fact that so many people were screaming about him in exactly these same terms long before the Capitol riot and have clearly switched to "January 6" as a matter of convenience rather than conviction (just as some of them are now switching to "mishandling classified documents") contributes to my lack of respect for most of these anti-Trump critics. They started with "I hate Trump" and have spent the past six years searching for reasons why.
I'm reading Collins' paranoia differently. I think she's referring to Trump's team as paranoid. They grabbed all these boxes and shoved them in Mar-A-Lago because they were paranoid that (given all the many wrong things he's obviously) there's incriminating info somewhere in the boxes.
People on the NYt Op-ed have lied about Trump and insulted Trump for 6 years. Why would anyone think they're making a serious SINCERE point about anything Trump or his supporters? Remember the teacher from Charlie brown's Peanut show? "blahblahblah" - that's what I hear when anyone in the NYT/WaPo starts talking about Trump.
Burt stephens pretended for years to be a conservative, then threw off the mask and became a biden and hillary supporter. So, when he talks about Trump lying, he's just projecting.
Hmm, rereading it for the third time, I think you're correct. I think it's confusingly put though, because "story on Trump’s end" made me think she was putting herself in the Trump team's shoes. But the larger context makes your reading more plausible.
Trump’s super power is that people who obsess over him, whether pro or anti, end up diminished.
I cannot think of one Trump addicted public person who has not let their addiction turn them into a clown show.
Hey, Bedbug says something smart for once!
Robert Marshall said...
Maybe the NYT should hire someone from west of the Hudson River, you know, someone who's actually lived in and knows about the god-forsaken fly-over country of the deplorables and semi-Nazi MAGA extremists. Just an idea.
8/29/22, 8:30 AM
Salena Zito would be a useful addition, although the crybabies in the newsroom wouldn't stand for it.
I tend to agree Trump was "sloppy" handling the documents, but only because Trump tends to be sloppy generally. He's very much a man who wings things. That said, he is very effective at winging things.
Anyone who trusts the FBI anymore in an obvious fool.
Ann, the way I read Collins' paragraph, she was saying that it was TRUMP that has the "reasonable paranoia" about the incriminating evidence in the boxes because he is such an Orange Man Bad. Nothing about his detractors.
While Mike MJB above makes a good point- that the raid was defensive in measure meant to acquire documents damaging to the FBI and D's, I think that if Trump had such documents, he was foolish for keeping them and not releasing the info sooner.
My thoughts on the raid, as I've said before, is that it was designed to do 2 things-
1) Amp up the D base.
2) Change the public discussion from Biden's disastrous policies and mental state to Trump! Trump! Trump! Right now, the D's are running against Trump and, if the polls are right, they are somewhat successful. The R's message has been changed from anti-inflation, anti-crime, pro-education etc. to either supporting or nor supporting Trump. Trump is not running so any question about Trump to an R candidate should be met with- "Trump is not on the ballot. Let me tell you about my opponents disastrous policies one xxxx." Stay the F...k on point!
Ask the Political prisoners rotting away in the DC gulag if Trump Supporters SHOULD be paranoid. Especially, when protesters on the left have done much of the same things...and they are still free and laughing at the Trump supporters they have imprisoned. WHY aren't the Colbert 9 in that prison?? THEY ignored the Capitol police who told them more than once that they were NOT allowed in the Capitol. WHY aren't the Kavenaugh screamers who were pounding on the doors of the Supreme Court when he got confirmed in the DC gulag? WHY aren't the Climate Change protesters who invaded the Interior Department building in the DC gulag? WHY did THEY get their hands slapped, whilst Trump supporters are rotting away in the gulag and being tortured?? And you wonder WHY Trump supporters are paranoid?? Two sets of rules in this country, and we aren't in the right club. https://spectator.org/a-visit-to-the-dc-gulag/
h wrote: "The paranoia of Trump opponents is that Trump personally ...."
The purveyers of TDS are not paranoid. They correctly believe that Trump's charge and his goal are, as John Podhoretz has noted, "... to save us from the evil on the left."
Their goal, by any means, fair or foul, is to prevent him from doing so - to prevent the exorcism.
I think Collins is referring to the paranoia of Trump himself, not of his opponents. She is giving two reasons ("on Trump's end") why he would take the classified documents: first, that he is just "grabby"; second, that he knows the things he has done wrong and is paranoid that the documents will provide evidence of his crimes to the Biden administration.
"and Collins with the paranoia of Trump antagonists, who are afraid Trump has done something wrong.
Maybe this is what Collins meant, but my reading is different- it is a paranoia that they won't ever find something awful that he has done.
Trump's outrageous behavior always seems to be not being woke. He's always had a Don Rickles sense of humor. Imagine Don Rickles roasting the NYT and you get Trump.
Temujin: "(think: Adam Schiff and his behind walls and closed doors meetings, his 'breathless' leaks to the press, his outright lying to the nation)."
Careful now.
Any criticism of The Hopeless gadfly's beloved Adam Schiff is sure to raise a storm of indignation as gadfly will simply not abide any criticism of his lord and master New Soviet Democraticals.
I mean, gadfly isn't going to fight you over it or anything. That would require some physical effort and our soyboy/girls/other's aren't up for that. But it will lead to furious 27 second of pounding on the keyboard and at least 2 full minutes of gadfly scanning the Media Matters website for more "True Conservative" content with which to critique Trump.....from a "True Conservative" point of view, naturally.
Jefferson's Revenge: "While Mike MJB above makes a good point- that the raid was defensive in measure meant to acquire documents damaging to the FBI and D's, I think that if Trump had such documents, he was foolish for keeping them and not releasing the info sooner."
Agreed.
AMDG: "I cannot think of one Trump addicted public person who has not let their addiction turn them into a clown show."
One side weaponizes the entire government against its domestic political opponents.
The other side notices and says Don't Do That.
AMDG stands apart and declares: a pox on both your houses.
I wonder if that's really the correct position to take?
hombre: "His flaws aside Trump's gift to the nation is that he has exposed the incredible extent of Democrat corruption"
His flaws aside Trump's gift to the nation is that he has exposed the incredible extent of Democrat, GOPe, entrenched bureaucracy corruption and the complete failure of our self-anointed "elites".
FIFY
I wonder what Bret Stephens thinks about Biden's awfulness? Does he think it's full of "deep, dark secrets"?
Because it is.
If Trump had a dollar for every libtard whos mind serves as a Airbnb for him, he could pay off the Russian mob ten times over.
Collins is referring to Trump's paranoia, not his opponents' paranoia. Read the sentence again.
What am I missing? To what end does Trump keep the documents? Was the FBI raid the end, and the FBI are just dupes?
No, they were after "crossfire Hurricane" documents and I hope he had them copied and hidden in a safe place. The FBI has been going after lawyers so that is probably not it. I don't think most people are paranoid enough. The FBI is acting as a DNC intelligence operative, just as BLM was their terrorist wing. Our only chance is their incompetence. Assuming they don't get us into a nuclear war.
wendybar at 9:28 AM
the Political prisoners rotting away in the DC gulag
That place is called The Garland Archipelago.
""... with Trump, there are no deep, dark secrets"
Julian Assange said Trump was unique in that when Assange called for dirt on Trump, all that came in was the same sort of stuff that was already public.
If you think it takes someone other than Trump to declassify a document, tell me how that person's boss couldn't also declassify it.
First, disclosure: I never finished Gulliver's Travels (I was ten, liked the Lilliputian part - especially where he pees on the palace to put out a fire, thought that was SO scandalous - but didn't like the Brobdingnagian part, and stopped), so the following is my recollection of a Heinlein reference to same.
In one of the places Gulliver visited, the king was constantly attended by servants called flappers, whose job it was to listen to the petitions of the king's subjects and, when the flapper thought the petition was worth listening to, to flap the king's ears with some big leaf or something to indicate the worthiness of the petition to him. The flappers were the agenda-setters of the kingdom.
I'd say that's a big part of the left's objections (!) to Trump: he didn't recognize and acquiesce to the supreme authority of the government bureaucracy to control the nation's agenda. The other part was alluded to above: they created him, they set him up to be the easy knockdown against H. Clinton, and he won. I know there's a literary analogy for the situation and I've been racking my brain for it without success... It has elements of Frankenstein's monster except that Dr. F created his creature out of scientific curiosity (and of course hubris), not to plunk into the gladiatorial ring to get killed by his weedy and craven offspring.
The battleground is not Trump supporter versus Trump hater. The fight is over the 30% to 40% of the people who are being hurt by Biden and D policies and who don't give a shit, rightly or wrongly, about addressing Trump's grievances.Trump's a big boy and can take care of himself right now.
If you can win the middle over by addressing their grievances, you can get into power. Once in power, you can then address Trump's grievances along with everyone else's
If you don't address the middle's grievances and instead focus on Trump, you never get into power. And, without power, you have just ceded the entire US Government to the Ds.
I have sympathy for the people in the DC jail but consider them POW's. They can't get released till you win the war. The first step is winning the House and Senate. If you do that those people will be released in 2 months.
“The notion that …. “
Wizard of Oz time.
“If I only has a brain”
It's Stranger Things! That's the literary reference I was looking for. My husband just pointed it out. To the Left, Trump is the gateway they opened out of hubris and a desire for power (Clinton certainly wouldn't have challenged their status as national agenda-setters), and now that gateway has loosed terrible monsters (like Trump supporters! Aaaugh!) on their world and they can't seem to close it and get it to stay closed, though at the end of every season they think they've finally won.
Uh... spoiler alert.
As with most here, I picked C.
Sure, Trump was probably sloppy with documents. I agree with that because it's exactly the sort of thing he'd be sloppy with. And Stephens is right (as we talked about here yesterday) that he probably doesn't know what he has but knows the fight over returning it is useful to him.
Trump's sloppiness is not a crime, whereas the FBI's meddling in politics is or should be. That is the real threat--not a president who doesn't concern himself with details that are generally left to the staff anyway, but a government bureau with access to people's personal secrets and a willingness to use that access to undermine our democratic processes.
I think that Balgefor is quite correct that Collins is saying that Trump is paranoid. She is saying that he must be thinking that his boxes contain some evidence of one or the other of his many crimes. Of course, this is absurd, since these are copies of various agencies' documents, the originals of which are retained by the various agencies that classified them, so any evidence they contain is redundant in making a case against Trump.
Collins notion of all-pervasive criminality seems rather paranoid to me, and Stephens likely encounters the image of a baboon's backside whilst shaving.
My opinion is that all the boxes were empty and there was just a note saying "Ask Melania where my blue socks are" in one of them. Like The Safe. We know that was empty but the fact of the "Ask Melania" note in the boxes has been suppressed. So then they found out Trump had sent out the contents of the boxes to the Archives the day before. So the word went out to destroy all trace of the boxes having been received at the Archive end and the boxes were then shipped down to where the FBI was guarding the empty boxes from Mar-A-Lago and these boxes were then filled with the contents from the National Archives. (First they checked Melania's rooms in case "blue socks" meant "Classified Documents.")
I developed this scenario because all the documents from the Obama years, 33 million of them, are sitting down in an old abandoned furniture warehouse in Illinois with all sorts of people going in and out. Supposedly the 5% of the documents which were undigitized were to be digitized and then the whole moved to the Obama library or another better location. Nothing has happened since the documents came there 7 years ago. Documents of all classification are there. This security risk is entirely acceptable to the National Archives and no one is doing anything wrong because a bureaucrat has stamped the situation "OK." But obviously this is a much greater danger than what Trump had even if the National Archives did not stamp "OK" on his arrangements. It's all so silly that in my mind the whole turns into a comedy routine though, of course I see that part of the national police has been politicized by the hard left and that's not really funny.
This is a good example of a push poll.
wendybar somewhat erroneously said...
Two sets of rules in this country
no No NO NO! there is Only ONE RULE in this country, that rule is:
Anything that helps the democrats is FINE!!
Donald Trump has only a vague idea of what’s in all of these documents
In other words, not merely not guilty on various charges, but there is not even probable cause or even reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing by Trump. Meaning an egregious violation of Trump's civil rights in this Stasi raid.
Let’s face it: the overwhelming paranoia on the side of Trump’s antagonists is the fear that he did nothing wrong. They can’t deal with that possibility. It would rock their worldview to its foundations.
Donald Trump is guilty primarily of being uncouth, and there is no law against that. His antagonists at a minimum are guilty of hypocrisy, but, as anyone who looks can see, they are not afraid to put trespassers involved in the melee on January 6 into jail indefinitely while awaiting trial.
I asked the dean of the UChicago Law School if any students were devoting any time or energy to assuring that J6 detainees have adequate legal representation. He said no. Quite different from the detainees at Guantanamo Bay in the 2000s or the Chicago 7 back in the early 70s, isn’t it? Quite different from accused violent offenders here in Chicago who are routinely released on electronic monitoring and therefore free to offend again.
Donald Trump has only a vague idea of what’s in all of these documents. The notion that he read through boxes and boxes containing hundreds of documents with classification markings and chose to take these particular items strikes me as … unlikely....
No shit, Sherlock.
He declassified and grabbed everything that might be relevant, so it could be looked through and the relevant things found.
A lot like what the FBI claimed they did with their raid on Trump's home.
The difference being that Trump had every legal right to do what he did, and the FBI didn't. Which is why they have to redact their affidavit, because otherwise their corrupt dishonesty will be revealed.
Your poll left out the correct answer:
Trump did absolutely nothing wrong here, all the wrong is on the side of the FBI
Stephens himself could have stated his opinion of Trump in a much less uncouth way. Yeah, Trump tweeted mean things and he tried to reset the federal government to an America first agenda, but he always obeyed court orders, some of which were from loopy liberal district judges.
Biden has been more extreme in his assertions of unilateral executive power. How is that southern border going, Joe? That Afghan pull-out was pure Biden: ill-conceived, unplanned, against the prudent advice he was given, catastrophic for our local allies. It was just like one of his press availabilities— anything can happen because Biden is stupid, unprincipled, and totally empty.
I don't buy Stephens's theory that Trump wanted a confrontation with the FBI over these documents. If that was so why did his lawyer attest that everything had been returned in response to the subpoena and why did Trump give up his crown jewels, the love letters from Kim?
I also don't agree that short term this has helped Republicans. I go with the Shapiro twitter thread that MAL and Trump in the news hurts Republicans running for Congress.
"His absolute awfulness always stares you squarely in the face"
Like, what? Getting tough on China? Limiting illegal immigration? Resisting the collusion hoax? Being nice to Israel? Avoiding needless wars? Nixing the Iran deal? Getting conservatives appointed to SCOTUS like he promised? What's so "absolutely awful"?
"the Justice Department had better come up with something very damning"
Why? Stringing this out is also to their advantage. Focusing attention on Trump and rallying GOPers behind him serves Dem interests.
"Stephens' paranoid Trump supporters are inferring that the F.B.I. is sinister because of all the other things they've seen — or believe they've seen — the F.B.I. do."
"Believe they have seen"? Like, with our lying eyes?
(eaglebeak)
The idea that the FBI/DOJ has only recently become corrupt is strange--it's just that with Trump they've reached the summit.
Let's not forget that in Watergate the "source" was the master manipulator--Deep Throat was Mark Felt, who was Associate Director of the FBI, and whose consuming interest was in destroying Nixon in revenge for Nixon's not having named him to replace J. Edgar.
During the '60s the left accused the FBI of various murders, and I'm beginning to believe they were right. The FBI and the CIA both were out to get George W. Bush, if you recall the tenor of his second presidential campaign--I hold no brief for Bush,
but honestly, you don't want your intelligence services scheming against a President in a constitutional republic.
Now there are those who argue that Peter Strzok (remember him?) didn't actually work for the FBI, but for the CIA, and had an FBI cover to enable him to do dirty domestic ops. There is some evidence for this, but I'm not going to go through it here, and don't know how to evaluate it.
The lurid story of the FBI/DOJ vs. Trump in 2015-2016 will some day be believed, although now it's fashionable to ignore it. The law enforcement/intel/counterintel apparatus of the United States is as disturbing as a baboon's ass, or whatever Bret Stephens said. And Trump has been their No. 1 target.
Of course he's paranoid. His supporters are paranoid. And with that cretin Joe Biden calling Trump's voters "semi-fascist" (I guess he means fascists who drive trucks), the cake has been iced. If you're a conservative, you'd be a fool not to be paranoid in this country right now.
Julian Assange said Trump was unique in that when Assange called for dirt on Trump, all that came in was the same sort of stuff that was already public.
Trump doesn't have much of a filter. He thinks something and he says it.
Much of our government is highly secretive (and paranoid). So Trump was always going to have a personality conflict with the swamp.
(It's kind of amazing how these secretive paranoid assholes in the government call themselves "the intelligence community" as if they are smart or something. If they were honest they would say, "we're spies." But since what they've been producing has been incredibly stupid, I think "swamp creatures" is a better fit).
Donald Trump: "I'm not into golden showers."
Could be an option, he's not judging. It's just not something he likes. Not a fan of the urine.
I think the swamp, and the media, would prefer a president that did awful things in secret, but put up a better facade.
Paranoia sells news. That’s why the NYT peddles it.
Paranoia sells news. That’s why the NYT peddles it.
My initial reaction to Trump's allegation that the election was stolen is that this was crybaby loser stuff.
I've heard it before.
Hillary was famous for it.
What makes me think my initial reaction was wrong is how the media keeps trying to squash the idea.
Honest election!
Very honest!
What a crazy assertion! We've looked into it. Definitely an honest election.
Hey, did you hear about our honest election of 2020?
As every journalist swears on his mother's life that the 2020 election was fair and balanced and totally legitimate, these same journalists seem completely terrified that this loser crybaby is going to run again.
That does not compute, right?
Meanwhile, all the sketchy spy people who do sketchy spy stuff like fixing elections also seem incredibly worried that this crybaby loser might run for president again.
Huh!
Because nobody worried about Al Gore or Mike Dukakis or Hillary Clinton. They immediately became irrelevant. When Richard Nixon lost in 1960? Irrelevant!
The swamp is obsessed with Donald Trump and is terrified that he might have popular support. Their proxies in the media are also terrified of Donald Trump and are equally afraid that he has popular support. It's the attitudes and actions of all the officials (and journalists) who hate Donald Trump that have caused my doubts about the 2020 election to grow.
Interesting that simile came to mind while he was talking with Gail Collins.
Molly mentioned...
Joe Biden calling Trump's voters "semi-fascist" (I guess he means fascists who drive trucks)
He got that from Pierre Trudeau's stepson, Justine
"It appears that "fascism" is the new accusation from the Left, started when President Never Blinks mumbled it during his alleged "rally".
Let's break down the definition and see if it applies, shall we?
"A political regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual"
What was Biden's sole qualification for SCOTUS?
An African-American woman. Selected minorities were given preferential treatment in distribution of Covid relief & treatments based on "equity".
Check."
Read the rest!! You won't be surprised, but some on the left will.
https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2022/08/29/receipt-filled-thread-breaks-down-exactly-what-fascism-looks-like-and-gosh-golly-gee-biden-might-want-to-get-a-mirror-or-two/
We all should be able to agree that Donald Trump has too much time on his hands.
Who will he drive to distraction first—his enemies or his friends?
I have met someone who hates Trump because he shorted her husband's company on a payment and he didn't get his bonus that year. I have met one of his investors who was unhappy about losing his money. Kevin Williamson hates Trump for grandiosity as eloquently expressed in his comparing his investment returns to Paris Hilton's. Those are the only three Trump haters that I know of that present any comprehensible reason for emotional their dislike.
" as soon as the administration sought to recover the boxes, he saw an opportunity to set up a test of strength against Biden "
And then Merrick Garland stepped right into Trump's trap. So predictable!
THIS is how Joe Bidens administration is treating American citizens.
If he treated illegals like this, the shit would hit the fan, but because they are Trump supporters the left is fine with treating human beings like animals.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/08/water-brown-feces-floor-ashli-babbitts-mother-dozens-patriots-hold-rally-outside-dc-gulag-explain-protesting-praying-outside-gulag/
Even the Australians get it!!! https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/08/want-talk-semi-fascism-look-mirror-australian-tv-biden-calling-americans-semi-fascists/
It started with the Clintons. They misused the Arkansas State Police, so it was an easy transition to restructure the FBI. Obama took it to the next level, creating a Stasi style secret police that served him personally, and the DNC, not the people. Today we see the fruits of their misdeeds. - .bLw (Frank Quotes)
"he saw an opportunity to set up a test of strength against Biden — one that would stoke the paranoia of his supporters, rally wavering Republicans to his side and set up the Justice Department to fall on its face barring some spectacular disclosure."
The Justice department set themselves up. If they couldn't predict the effect, they are idiots.
It is impossible to legally charge him with mishandling documents because all he had to do was say "These are declassified." There is no world where Trump committed a crime stealing Classified documents.
So if the President shouts in the forest "these are declassified" and nobody hears it, are the documents actually declassified?
Ann Althouse said...
"You left out the "F them both" option."
The question is "How would you resolve the competing paranoias?"
There's a saying that goes like this- It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.
The paranoid on Trump's side? Not paranoia. Law firms dismiss any lawyer representing Trump or Trump associates.
And as Wendybar pointed out: Ask the Political prisoners rotting away in the DC gulag if Trump Supporters SHOULD be paranoid. How many liberals were locked up when the Wisconsin staehouse was occupied and TRASHED?
The evidence is in- conservatives are being targeted. It's not paranoia. Leftists aren't, and their actions are excused. "No reasonable prosecutor would prosecute." for Hillary. Also no FBI raids, and not even an FBI search of her computer.
why did Trump give up his crown jewels, the love letters from Kim?
I missed that one. We're there actual letters stating Kim's admiration of Trump? Wow! I guess he was making better progress on that front than anyone could have hoped for. But that's history now. Back to the nuke threats. Much better.
stutefish said:
"His incompetence and corruption is left on display for all to see."
*********************
Oh really? Point us to Trump's incompetence and corruption.
What incompetent policies did he create and implement?
What corruption charges were proven?
Please offer sources that do NOT come from the career politicians and media you claim are equally incompetent and corrupt.
Confessions through projections. Hail the unearned esteem of the Fourth Estate.
Freder Freder. Just because it is marked classified doesn't mean it is still classified. Catch up with the rest of the class now.
First thought: How many baboon's backsides has Bret Stephens been staring at?
Mine, too.
Bathroom mirror, perhaps?
can they sic EPA on Trump if 'accidentally' the toilet paper hanging from his ass also went into one of those boxes and likely pollute waters of the USA in Everglades?
Anybody here remember that old Halloween trick where you filled a paper bag with doggy do then placed it on the porch then set it on fire, rang the bell, and hid in the bushes and watched them stomp it out?
And Trump got it all on CCTV.
when I watch THE AMERICAN SCENARIO FOR HISTORY : Atlas Shrugged is my preferred reference point.
Francisco saying 'I came to witness the farce'
Galt tortured to make him agree to become !Dictator!
then there is Hank Rearden and his TRIBULATIONS
Tried in Court , his response to the judges , response of the crowd
Blackmailed for 'l'affire' Dagny to give up his Intellectual Property
Q about Process/Procedure in /Our Nation of Rule of Law/ aka USA
if pre-chosen venue is DC
why was it necessary to involve local judge to execute the search warrant?
‘So if the President shouts in the forest "these are declassified" and nobody hears it, are the documents actually declassified?’
Remember when Truman told Stalin about the Trinity nuclear test? It remains the most secret program in US history and he revealed it in a time of world war to a foreign national. So, yeah - absolute authority is absolute, even if you don’t like it.
‘So if the President shouts in the forest "these are declassified" and nobody hears it, are the documents actually declassified?’
Remember when Truman told Stalin about the Trinity nuclear test? It remains the most secret program in US history and he revealed it in a time of world war to a foreign national. So, yeah - absolute authority is absolute, even if you don’t like it.
"’…but I'm still trying to figure out why Trump kept any documents.’"
Why did Obama?
effinayright said...
stutefish said:
You're going to have a long wait. He said what he was told to say. He's awaiting more input from his masters.
Freder Frederson said...
It is impossible to legally charge him with mishandling documents because all he had to do was say "These are declassified." There is no world where Trump committed a crime stealing Classified documents.
So if the President shouts in the forest "these are declassified" and nobody hears it, are the documents actually declassified?
Yes.
Donald Trump has only a vague idea of what’s in all of these documents.
It's hilarious how the likes of Bret Stephens think they know better about Trump's documents than Trump does. Reminds me of the head-shrinkers who diagnosed Trump as crazy without even talking to the man, an egregious violation of the rules of psychiatry.
Field Marshall Freder: "So if the President shouts in the forest "these are declassified" and nobody hears it, are the documents actually declassified?"
I see someone else already answered this, and correctly. The answer is yes.
But its more than that. The President need not even shout it. By previous court cases, intent to declassify can be discerned by action alone.
But then again, the New Soviet Democraticals have made it quite clear that no republican they oppose is allowed to exercise his/her authority without those legal actions being criminalized.
"Trump's outrageous behavior always seems to be not being woke."
For lefties, sure. But the conservative case against Trump is pretty substantive: 1. stealing private property to give it to Taiwanese conmen; 2. prohibiting property owners from evicting deadbeat tenants; 3. forking over billions in welfare checks to citizens who don't even need the money under the auspices of "COVID relief"; 4. ordering firearm restrictions (bump stocks) without an act of Congress, etc., etc., etc.
Actual conservatives (if there are any of us still left) find these things pretty outrageous. Trump is the RINO in the room that nobody wants to talk about.
So if the President shouts in the forest "these are declassified" and nobody hears it, are the documents actually declassified?
===========
only those documents composed of cellulosic molecules from forestal ancestors
I go with the Chuck option. Fuck em both.
Always the vague unsupported assertions with these people
"Actual conservatives (if there are any of us still left) find these things pretty outrageous."
OMG what a piss poor attempt at Moby
"AMDG stands apart and declares: a pox on both your houses."
OH! It's Both Sides Guy!
I wondered where he got off to
Actual conservatives (if there are any of us still left) find these things pretty outrageous. Trump is the RINO in the room that nobody wants to talk about.
You wouldn't know a conservative if he ran over you. Try harder, lefty.
D.D.Driver: "Actual conservatives (if there are any of us still left) find these things pretty outrageous. Trump is the RINO in the room that nobody wants to talk about."
Recycling the 2015/2016 talking points isn't really flying in 2022.
But you do you.
Butkus51: "I go with the Chuck option. Fuck em both."
In the future, make sure your refer to chuck as lower case c "chuck" and not the other one, as it is the One That Shall Not Be Mentioned as it will conjure up Lifelong Republicans Who Just So Happen Adore All Things Far Left And New Soviet Democratical.
I'm not a big fan of Trump, but I AM worried about the CIA/FBI and all using its influence to favor one Presidial candidate over another. Is there ANY doubt that this has been happening?
Is it OK with you?
The idea of Trump as the guy who always says what he's thinking and doing, Joe Montana in the SNL sketch, is intriguing, whether it's entirely true or not.
COVID, the once in a century pandemic that no one knew how to handle, meant a lot of trial and error. I don't hold it against Trump. Nobody wants to be Herbert Hoover.
D.D. Driver said...
"Trump's outrageous behavior always seems to be not being woke."
For lefties, sure. But the conservative case against Trump is pretty substantive: 1. stealing private property to give it to Taiwanese conmen;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say what? explain.
2. prohibiting property owners from evicting deadbeat tenants;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the government took away their jobs through the lockdowns. Would you rather they had been tossed out on the streets? GRANTED the lockdowns were a huge mistake, but Trump followed "the science"...remember?
3. forking over billions in welfare checks to citizens who don't even need the money under the auspices of "COVID relief";
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>And how many months would it have taken the government to figure out WHO deserved WHAT?
4. ordering firearm restrictions (bump stocks) without an act of Congress, etc., etc., etc.
>>>>>>>many gun regulations have not required an Act of Congress. Not allowing weapons to made effectively fully automatic---already unlawful---was meant to tighten up the law.
Actual conservatives (if there are any of us still left) find these things pretty outrageous.
>>>>>>>>You speak very well of yourself!
Trump is the RINO in the room that nobody wants to talk about.
>>>>>>>Yeah, he's no different from Romney, McConnell, Cheney, and all the other squishes.
SNORT
Trump is the RINO in the room that nobody wants to talk about.
[shrug] You go to war with the army you have. No True Scotsman isn't going to get you very far.
D.D. Driver said...
But the conservative case against Trump is pretty substantive: 1. stealing private property to give it to Taiwanese conmen;
You keep on making that claim
I keep on asking for proof
you keep on not giving
2. prohibiting property owners from evicting deadbeat tenants;
So, your "conservative proposition is, what? That it's perfectly fine for the gov't to order lockdowns that take away people's jobs, but it's entirely verboten to keep them from being evicted because they can't pay the rent since they no longer have a job, and haven't had one for the last 6+ months?
3. forking over billions in welfare checks to citizens who don't even need the money under the auspices of "COVID relief";
You mean Congress passed a law doing that, and he signed it?
If signing a bad law means you're "not conservative", there hasn't ever been a "conservative" President
4. ordering firearm restrictions (bump stocks) without an act of Congress, etc., etc., etc.
Love the "etc., etc., etc" there. because when you don't have anything else, it's a nice touch
In 1986 as president, Reagan signed into law the "Firearm Owners Protection Act", which “banned ownership of any fully automatic rifles that were not already registered on the day the law was signed.”
Did that make Reagan "not conservative"?
Actual conservatives (if there are any of us still left) find these things pretty outrageous. Trump is the RINO in the room that nobody wants to talk about.
Actual conservatives have serious problems with the Fulton County Democrat vote counter announcing on Election Night that they're shutting down for the night, kicking out all press and poll watchers, and then immediately resuming "counting" votes.
After which count the NYT "Election meter" needle for GA went from "Trump win 95%+ chance" to "possible Biden victory"
But you're ecstatic about that, and about them getting away with it. So the only thing you obviously are NOT is conservative
Hey Bret! How much are you paying to fill up your gasoline car now (heretic)? Party hack. Hope you are compensated well for your Democrat advocacy. You’ll need that extra change to buy your eggs. Blind leading the blind.
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