“Is this genocide?” @margbrennan asks Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.
— Face The Nation (@FaceTheNation) April 3, 2022
“Indeed. This is genocide,” Zelenskyy says, adding that Ukraine is being “destroyed and exterminated” by Russian forces.
Tune in at 10:30a E.T. to hear more. pic.twitter.com/VyI246euAH
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"Is this genocide?"/"Indeed. This is genocide."
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Eight years, and two years under the current regime in progress.
In my view, the propaganda war waged by Ukraine puts Russian Propaganda to shame. I get I'm not privy to all of it, but the west swallows everything they see out of Ukraine whole.
AZOV murdering their own countrymen to blame the Russians? Unheard of! Beware the images coming out of Bucha. Azov was the first one's in after the Russian withdrawal. Some of the bodies on the streets are Russian soldiers being sold as Ukrainian citizens.
No, even if true, it is not "genocide" unless Ukrainians are a race.
I say even if true because nobody here has any way of knowing what is going on.
John Henry Henry
I really that this story should be taken with great suspicion, and the details need to be independently verified - including who did what. https://twitter.com/yotsuba0377/status/1510693886347390983
https://mobile.twitter.com/politblogme/status/1510640190146191365
Other possible explanation
He was asked the question. He could either say yes or no or equivocate. He chose to say "yes." Was that the wrong choice?
He was asked the question. He could either say yes or no or equivocate. He chose to say "yes." Was that the wrong choice?
If you want to de-escalate a conflict, you avoid rhetoric that could make de-escalation less likely. This is the equivalent of Biden's “for God’s sake, this man cannot remain in power” remark.
No, even if true, it is not "genocide" unless Ukrainians are a race.
Genocide can be carried out against an ethnic group. Jews are not a race. Ukrainians were not a race in the thirties either, nor are the Tutsi, but the Holocaust, Holodomora and Rwanda were genocides.
In my view, the propaganda war waged by Ukraine puts Russian Propaganda to shame. I get I'm not privy to all of it, but the west swallows everything they see out of Ukraine whole.
In my view, if you think the Russians are more credible than Ukraine, you are seriously deluded, maybe even insane.
The Russians started this war and have performed horribly. That alone should tell you where you are more likely to find truth.
He gave the politically best answer. It puts his critics on the back foot, quibbling about the definition of genocide. Wiki says the UN definition covers “five acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such.” I’d say that executing people —civilians, BTW— because they are Ukrainian (a “national group”) would qualify.
Of course all these atrocities may turn out to be staged, or a false-flag op, or otherwise as real as the noose found around Jussie Smollett’s neck. But pending such debunking, I’d call it genocide. As an historical matter it fits easily into the template for Russian military conduct in WW2 described by Timothy Snyder in “Bloodlands.”
Is this genocide?
Good enough for government work. Especially since, contra John Henry, genocide is not restricted to race but includes ethnic and religious groups.
And what leader, given the opportunity, isn't going to call atrocities against his people genocide?
Ann Althouse said...
He was asked the question. He could either say yes or no or equivocate. He chose to say "yes." Was that the wrong choice?
He could/should have said; "Well as David Bowie would say, This Ain't Rock 'n' Roll"
https://twitter.com/MoonofA/status/1510635534321860611
"Mar 31: Mayor of Bucha announces town 'liberated', makes no mention of atrocities."
Althouse,
Point taken. Not so much a right or wrong choice, as was it the best choice from a Propaganda standpoint. The same can be said of his wardrobe choice.
As you said, he was asked a question. Perhaps, the better subject for analysis is the question itself, and how it came to be, and put in the interviewer's mouth.
I am told Ukraine is winning in a genocidal war [titprotat]
It's not genocide, just trying to piss off the Ukranians. A calling card.
https://twitter.com/AliceFromQueens/status/1510721610029936646?cxt=HHwWjMC5hZvTlPcpAAAA
"wartime propaganda is normal; journalists falling for it shouldn't be."
Not genocide.
Ann Althouse said...
He was asked the question. He could either say yes or no or equivocate. He chose to say "yes." Was that the wrong choice?
No.
From his perspective calling it genocide is only good. It is a term that most people don't understand and that provokes strong emotional reactions.
He is trying to manipulate other people into supporting his cause. He is doing nothing wrong here.
I really want to go along with the zeitgeist and hate Putin 100% and think that Zel and his Ukes are the second coming of Churchill, but he does this kind of stuff.
Genocide means exterminating a group of people because of who they are (religion, culture, or some immutable characteristic. Putin's rationale for his war is irrational, evil, and possibly criminal, but he's not invading Ukraine because it's inhabited by Ukrainians. He's invading because of a twisted misunderstanding of Western intentions and classic Russian paranoia, combined with a good amount of sociopathy.
Nazis vs Jews, homosexuals, Roma, Hutus vs Tutsis. That's genocide. Russia vs Ukraine is war for geography, politics, and economy. Calling it genocide is propaganda, and diminishes the man who would be Churchill.
@Freder "In my view, if you think the Russians are more credible than Ukraine, you are seriously deluded, maybe even insane." That's an odd presentation. It in no way makes the Ukrainians credible. There have already been multiple debunked stories coming from there, clear wartime propaganda. This sounds like that too, though we'll have to see.
Lem said...
If you want to de-escalate a conflict, you avoid rhetoric that could make de-escalation less likely.
De-escalation is nice, and a goal Zelenskyy should pursue. Having the ability to stop Russian advances is another goal he should pursue. The requires advanced weapons, which would only come from NATO countries. Referring to this as genocide likely helps him get those weapons.
Biden's remark was both harmful and useless.
So this is what the right wing has come to. Even bodies laying in streets dead with hands tied behind their back, people on bicycles or walking mowed down, for what, and right wingers here couldn’t care less, as it appears by the commentary in this thread. I think my level of disgust with conservatives couldn’t get any worse after the Trump cult, but then reading and hearing conservatives still coming down on the side of Putin…even after all that has transpired the last 6 weeks, it has. It is truly a disgusting reflection of people who can’t find their own humanity anymore and consistently try to deny the humanity of others.
I guess I will never understand the Russian mind. How in the world do they believe that the way to convince a population to come to your side is by murdering them? The Ukrainians have a lot of reasons to hate the Russians, including the Holodomor. And yet, the Russians seem to think that we just haven't kicked their ass enough, so lets kill even more Ukrainians. All the Russians are doing is ensuring that they will have a populace on their border that hates them forever. Great job, Vlad!
Corpses in the street, and we're arguing about what to call it. Might as well be arguing over pronouns.
And what leader, given the opportunity, isn't going to call atrocities against his people genocide?
Which people? They are all Ukrainians, including: Jewish-Ukrainians, gypsy-Ukrainians, Russian-Ukrainians, etc. from both sides: east and west, north and south, nearly half of whom were disenfranchised, denied essential services, and under assault by a Kiev-aligned military and paramilitary axis since the Biden/Maidan/Slavic Spring.
Not genocide. The goal was to install a pro-Russian government, not to kill the Ukrainian people. If the Ukrainian people has surrendered, they would not have been killed. Contrast that with the holocaust, where Jews were killed for no reason other than they were Jewish. They did not have the option of surrendering and living.
(I'm not suggesting that the Ukrainians should have surrendered. If they feel their country is worth fighting for then they should fight for it.)
Blogger Browndog said...
...
AZOV murdering their own countrymen to blame the Russians? Unheard of! Beware the images coming out of Bucha. Azov was the first one's in after the Russian withdrawal. Some of the bodies on the streets are Russian soldiers being sold as Ukrainian citizens.
4/3/22, 3:18 PM
By all reports the ASOV are all down in Mariupol which isn't exactly next door to Bucha. Also I didn't realize the Russian solders included women and children.
In my view, if you think the Russians are more credible than Ukraine, you are seriously deluded, maybe even insane.
The Russians started this war and have performed horribly. That alone should tell you where you are more likely to find truth.
As I said, I don't know the Russian side. I see what RT puts out, that's it. I don't bother with it. I'd rather listen to Kamala speak. I do know what Ukraine puts out. I make it a point.
Yes, the Russians started the war. Yes, war is horrific. And yes, Ukraine starts at a place of given credibility. Until they lie.
You fucking libs and your "if your a victim you're a saint--a hero!". No, you're the same person you were before, just with more hospital bills/burial fees.
Why would Ukraine lie? They were attacked!..is some of the stupidest "logic" I've ever heard.
the propaganda war waged by Ukraine puts Russian Propaganda to shame
It's the same propaganda, the same steering engines, the same fourth estate, the same braying voices that put American propaganda to shame daily, nightly, in classrooms, in corporate boardrooms and offices, etc. We just happen to be the native, and longtime indigenous, population by conception/birth and number, for now, when our votes exceed the margin of irregularities, fraud, misinformation, and disinformation.
More Crisis Actors? It's curious why you people reliably give the Stalinist Union the benefit of the doubt.
At the end of WWII in Europe, the Red Army raped millions of German women as they occupied Eastern Germany. Was that genocide?
Ukraine has 40 million people. A couple thousand have killed in the war. If that's "Genocide" than we were doing "Genocide" against Iraq and Afghanistan.
Can people ever push back against hysteria? Further, Zelensky (no extra Y for you, Mr. Z) should do the sensible thing and agree to Putin's terms and stop the war. Stop killing your own people for NO REASON. THe Ukraine cannot win.
Period.
The question was moronic.
"Disgusting" was the word I used several weeks ago now.
It is even more apt for you folks.
Russia is claiming that the Ukrainians are Russians rather than Ukrainians, a people with their own country. The Russian premise is being promoted with killing and imposing living conditions meant to make the Ukrainians give in and be Russian, including threats of nuclear attacks. That's an attempted genocide. It's not like an attack on Poland where the Russians say: we are going to dominate; it's an attack on the idea that the Ukrainians are a nation.
Here's the words to the Ukrainian national anthem:
"Ukraine’s glory has not yet died, nor her freedom,
Upon us, my young brothers, fate shall yet smile.
Our enemies will perish, like dew in the morning sun,
And we too shall rule, brothers, in our own land."
The attack on Kiev has failed and the Russians have withdrawn the troops they had around Kiev. This was a retreat with a rearguard, not a rout. Nevertheless it was very quick, it took place in about two days, and Russian units were left behind. The Ukrainians call them "lost orcs" and are rounding them up. But Russia still has more territory in the eastern Ukraine than when the war started because in the south it launched from the Crimea and the so-called republics and if it keeps that newly seized territory then it can launch another attack and so nibble away the Ukraine. So again, the genocide.
Looks like you Deniers were right. From the Russian Embassy UK:
⚡ @mod_russia: All photos & videos published by Kiev allegedly of "crimes" by 🇷🇺servicemen in #Bucha are another provocation. When the town was under control of 🇷🇺armed forces, not a single local resident suffered from any violent action.
#DebunkingFakes https://www.facebook.com/mod.mil.rus/posts/3197015560541178
https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassy/status/1510696458588246026
In my view, the propaganda war waged by Ukraine puts Russian Propaganda to shame. I get I'm not privy to all of it, but the west swallows everything they see out of Ukraine whole.
A major pillar of the Russian propaganda campaign is undermining trust in anything the Ukrainian government says. 'Snake Island' is an example - the Ukrainians first they were dead; but then 48 hours learned that they had been captured, and announced that. They openly gave updated information when they got it, but Snake Island is now on a list of 'fake news' items.
AZOV murdering their own countrymen to blame the Russians?
Didn't happen. Russia has been lulling credulous Western journalists with this outright bullshit for several years.
Genocide means exterminating a group of people because of who they are (religion, culture, or some immutable characteristic. Putin's rationale for his war is irrational, evil, and possibly criminal, but he's not invading Ukraine because it's inhabited by Ukrainians. He's invading because of a twisted misunderstanding of Western intentions and classic Russian paranoia, combined with a good amount of sociopathy.
Russia have admitted that they're invading because Ukraine belongs to them. All the stuff about NATO enlargemment, biolabs, Azov nazis, protecting Russian-speakers from Ukrainians, is all just smoke. It's a raw display of power.
What went wrong is that it was supposed to be a rapid decapitation (hence the drive to Kyiv), and an installation of a puppet government... not an actual war. That's where the whole thing went sideways.
"So this is what the right wing has come to. Even bodies laying in streets dead with hands tied behind their back, people on bicycles or walking mowed down, for what, and right wingers here couldn’t care less..." Some of us are wondering if Russia actually did it. Is that of interest to you, or are you angry at us for not buying your narrative before it is verified? Does it matter to you if it's true?
One thing it isn't is World War III. Yet.
Mar 30:
Ru troops leave Bucha
Mar 31:
Mayor of Bucha announces town 'liberated', makes no mention of atrocities.
https://ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3445989-bucha-liberated-from-russian-invaders-mayor.html…
Apr 1/2:
Azov Nazis enter Bucha
https://nytimes.com/live/2022/04/03/world/ukraine-russia-war#scenes-of-desperation-and-death-as-the-russians-retreat-from-suburbs-outside-kyiv…
Apr 3:
Ukr MinDef publishes video of 'Russian' atrocities
https://nytimes.com/live/2022/04/03/world/ukraine-russia-war#ukraine-accuses-russian-forces-of-executing-civilians-in-the-town-of-bucha
https://twitter.com/MoonofA/status/1510635534321860611
Russia has asked for a meeting of the Security Council for this atrocity. My guess is that it won't happen, because the US runs the UN, and Google already said that anybody suggesting that anybody other than Russia was behind it would be demonetized. and Google runs the US. I wish Google would present their evidence, bit I guess they don't have to.
Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aimed at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. [Lemkin]
Genocide in Tibet. Genocide in America. Genocide in eastern and southern Ukraine over eight years... 32 trimesters of progress in the Slavic Spring. Diversity, Inequity, and Exclusion. #HateLovesAbortion
Interesting how important pronouncements by modern politicians are usually made in response to some reporter questions. And the answer should be always, yes.
Compare when Reagan said, "... tear down this wall", it was in conclusion of a speech. There was introduction of a certain theme, than development and only than a conclusion. Nowadays, it seems almost like politicians need to be prompted to make a statement. Recently, Biden was prompted to state if Putin is a war criminal. Biden gave a wrong answer, so he had to circle back to the same reporter and ask for another chance to give the right answer.
"More Crisis Actors? It's curious why you people reliably give the Stalinist Union the benefit of the doubt."
Ignoring the asinine "you people" slur for the moment, being skeptical of the Russians on this one is entirely justified. They have just as much (if not more) reason to lie about what's happening as anyone else.
It's not full on Auschwitz, but it's no drive by shooting. It's definitely a crime against humanity. Over three million people are refugees and ten million people have lost their home. I don't know at what point war crimes rise to the level of genocide, but calling such crimes genocide is not propaganda......I don't think it's a right wing position to be hesitant about committing whole heartedly to Ukraine. It's Biden's position.....It isn't hard for Zelensky to make a better case than Putin. Ten million people don't leave their homes to make a propaganda point. This war is Putin's fault. Solely and exclusively.
Yeah, we already got that, tim, from the Russian embassy.
President Zelensky is not needed for anything other than to sign the act of surrender. He is simply a hand puppet of the US Dept. of State. It’s painful to watch his poor acting. Russians haven’t started this war, they are finishing it.
Re: Browndog:
AZOV murdering their own countrymen to blame the Russians? Unheard of! Beware the images coming out of Bucha. Azov was the first one's in after the Russian withdrawal.
I thought Azov was more active in the south, e.g. Mariupol, since they had apparently been critical to the defense of Mariupol back in 2014, and are only a component of the Ukrainian armed forces -- not all uniformed armed forces, partisans, or guerillas fighting for the Ukraine are affiliated with Azov.
And frankly, although Azov are unrepentant Nazis, I don't actually think they have any reason to commit false flag attacks on their own people. The Russians, following in the proud tradition of the Soviet Red Army, are perfectly capable of committing gang rapes and mass murders without prompting.
More support for vermont tim. And you know it is reliable because it uses the same language and makes the same points as tim's source:
From a Russian government official:
The Bucha hoax debunked.
🇷🇺 MoD Statement:
❗️The photos and video footage from Bucha are another production by the Kiev regime for the Western media, as was the case in Mariupol with the maternity hospital, as well as in other cities.
https://twitter.com/A__Alimov/status/1510661357586333704
The Bucha hoax debunked.
🇷🇺 MoD statement:
👉🏻 🇷🇺 units completely left Bucha on 30 March;
👉🏻 Bucha city mayor Fedoruk on 31 March confirmed there were no 🇷🇺 militaries in the city, didn’t even mentions any residents shot in the streets with their hands tied;
2/3
https://twitter.com/A__Alimov/status/1510646393416859649
The Bucha hoax debunked.
🇷🇺 MoD statement:
👉🏻 all the so-called "evidence of crimes" in Bucha appeared only on the 4th day, when 🇺🇦 Security Service officers and 🇺🇦 television arrived in the city.
3/3
https://twitter.com/A__Alimov/status/1510646677782245384
From the Russian Mission in Geneva:
Your daily #Fakes pushed by the Western media
❌ Russian troops committed atrocities in Bucha
✅ The @mod_russia and the city’s mayor confirmed that the 🇷🇺 troops left the city on March 30. It’s yet another 🇺🇦 provocation in order to stir emotions and call for more weapons
https://twitter.com/mission_russian/status/1510669717350064134
Real genocide is being shoved into the same semantic grave as real women.
This attempt to pin the massacre on Russia is really devious. Those evil Ukrainians who really did it were even able to infiltrate the town BEFORE the Russians left!
Satellite images show a 45-foot-longtrench dug into the grounds of a Ukrainian church where a mass grave was found this week after Russian forces withdrew from the town of Bucha, a private U.S. company said on Sunday....
Maxar Technologies, which collects and publishes satellite imagery of Ukraine, said the first signs of excavation for a mass grave at the Church of St. Andrew and Pyervozvannoho All Saints were seen on March 10.
Aussie Pundit: "A major pillar of the Russian propaganda campaign is undermining trust in anything the Ukrainian government says."
A major pillar of the any government's propaganda campaign is undermining trust in anything opposing governments say.
Remember when Russia/Putin "hacked" the US electrical grid in the northeast US?
Of course, that lie by US intelligence was in service to the color revolution they were running against Trump.
Some of us are wondering if Russia actually did it.
Russia does this in every invasion. Poland 1940; Hungary 1956; Chechnya 1999. Syria, etc. They execute lots, and lots, and lots, of civilians. Every time.
It's okay to be skeptical if it is surprising and unexpected. But if they do the EXACT SAME THING every time, then your skepticism is just amoral posturing.
How many deaths is considered a tragedy?
One death is a tragedy, a million deaths a statistic. attributed; first attributed to Stalin in the form ‘If only one man dies of hunger, that is a tragedy. If millions die, that’s only statistics’ in Washington Post 20 January 1947; see Tucholsky
=========
would it be correct to say /genocide/ as a term is to be used as rebut to Stalin and others?
"Yeah, we already got that, tim, from the Russian embassy"
I thought you were going to debunk it. A mass grave after a combat operation is not evidence if genocide. Many of the dead were wearing white armbands, given to those helping to distribute aid given by the Russians.
Did you come up with a rebuttal for the one I posted above, yet?
“The city is being cleared from saboteurs and accomplices of Russian forces.”
https://mobile.twitter.com/politblogme/status/1510640190146191365
Because it's from theUkrainians, and explains a lot of the dead bodies.
Blogger Freder Frederson said...
In my view, the propaganda war waged by Ukraine puts Russian Propaganda to shame. I get I'm not privy to all of it, but the west swallows everything they see out of Ukraine whole.
In my view, if you think the Russians are more credible than Ukraine, you are seriously deluded, maybe even insane.
The Russians started this war and have performed horribly. That alone should tell you where you are more likely to find truth.
4/3/22, 4:09 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Hell must be frozen over. I agree with Freder
Balfegor said...@10:31
That has been my understanding as well. I'm more likely to attribute the atrocities to Russia since this is their standard practice to do things like this and then vehemently blame the other guy.
Inga, et al;
You guys voted for this. Isn't this what you all wanted?
It's okay to be skeptical if it is surprising and unexpected. But if they do the EXACT SAME THING every time, then your skepticism is just amoral posturing.
Worse. It's complicity.
Two points of note:
1. In the Panama Papers scandal, the nation of origin most represented among the worst offenders was: Ukraine.
2. With the Clinton Foundation, the nation of origin with the highest dollar numbers by foreign donors was: Ukraine.
It's a mistake to believe any of the reporting by any journalist on any subject in this war, unless you know them by previous reputation. The propaganda, disinformation, and misinformation is unlike any other armed conflict in history, because these tools are just as important in this information age as military weapons are.
Blogger Freder Frederson said...
"In my view, the propaganda war waged by Ukraine puts Russian Propaganda to shame. I get I'm not privy to all of it, but the west swallows everything they see out of Ukraine whole."
This is ironic since you've swallowed everything that you were told to swallow about Trump and spat it out on command. You maybe want sit back for awhile and not contribute so much because your view is sh*t.
The terms "genocide" and "racism" get applied to more than race nowadays, especially in Europe.
I would hold off on applying it now until we have established what is actually happening in Ukraine.
The terms "genocide" and "racism" get applied to more than race nowadays, especially in Europe.
I would hold off on applying it now until we have established what is actually happening in Ukraine.
The evidence is overwhelming, from a variety of sources. There are photos and videos from multiple sources. Satellite images. There are first hand reports from Ukraine government, from journalists, from foreign observers, from international organizations, from survivors. There are even intercepted Russian documents and communications that back it up.
Yet there are self-proclaimed experts (mostly in the US, who have never been to Ukraine) throwing doubt on the whole thing, alleging a large-scale 'false flag'. It's so ridiculous. That's now on the same level of stupidity as believing that the moon landings were faked.
"It was AZOV! Azov did it!" You guys realize, right, that Azov had a total membership of 500 before the war started, and anyway they're in the east?
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