An indelicate question, sourced anonymously at Instapundit, inquiring after the new policy announced by MIT admissions: "We are reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles."
From the policy announcement, there's an excess of delicacy — to the point where you might find it funny or terribly disturbing:
Our research can’t explain why these tests are so predictive of academic preparedness for MIT, but we believe it is likely related to the centrality of mathematics — and mathematics examinations — in our education. All MIT students, regardless of intended major, must pass two semesters of calculus, plus two semesters of calculus-based physics.... The substance and pace of these courses are both very demanding, and they culminate in long, challenging final exams that students must pass to proceed with their education. In other words, there is no path through MIT that does not rest on a rigorous foundation in mathematics, and we need to be sure our students are ready for that as soon as they arrive.
It sounds as though they have a large number of students whom they misled into believing that they could do the work. These students are not morons. Most of us are in no position to jump into fast-paced college physics and calculus! The students I visualize are suffering and properly outraged at the administration for tempting them with an opportunity that they were naive to take. Don't blame the students. Blame the administration. They did it for themselves. That's the right presumption. Now, they're in damage-control mode.
I'm giving this post the tag "stupid" because of the administration. I don't think any of the students are stupid. They're just at the wrong school because a wrong was done to them.
পোস্টগুলি
১১৭টি মন্তব্য:
Affirmative action, by any other name, smells as foul.
Parents/guidance counselors didn't have any concerns? What are the demographic breakdowns of the students in question? That would be very beneficial for society to know - it could help identify problematic areas that could then be addressed. Which is why we will likely never know ...
"In other words, there is no path through MIT that does not rest on a rigorous foundation in mathematics, and we need to be sure our students are ready for that as soon as they arrive."
Wait, so being good in math predicts being good in math?
"It sounds as though they have a large number of students whom they misled into believing that they could do the work."
How so? Did MIT tell them they would dumb things down? Or hold out the possibility that they could scrape by with passing grades and still get an MIT degree?
"These students are not morons."
How do you know? Depends on what the definition of "moron" is. Anything lower than a 700 math SAT is moronic for MIT.
"The students I visualize are suffering and properly outraged at the administration for tempting them with an opportunity that they were naive to take."
Huh? They are adults. The took a chance. Everyone knows what MIT is and does.
"They're just at the wrong school because a wrong was done to them."
What do you mean? They applied. They wanted to get in. They thought they could get the credential without the talent. Plus everyone knows mismatch is a right-wing smear.
The wonder here is that MIT has thus far refused to dumb down the curriculum and inflate grades too much. Kudos to them, for now.
Of course, they still peddle the illusion of trying to get a "diverse" student body. Percent black SAT scores between 1400 and 1600: 1. Percent perfect black math scores: ?.
I went to Caltech. It's quite a change from high school. I was failing at the midterm during the first freshman quarter in one class, can't remember which. Studying in high school wasn't really required, it was mandatory at Tech to succeed. That was quite a shock.
MIT would be the same. If they used AA admission standards, then those students who would do well at State University would be drowning. Their only solution would to head to the exit as fast as they could. With $10,000s of debt.
Prof A: you nailed it. This is the "mismatch" hypothesis once again being confirmed. The fraud in admissions is a fraud on those whose hopes are falsely raised, for whom the paranoia of "imposter syndrome" (felt by every student) is amplified and perpetuated, who waste time and money scrambling to catch up or evading the most rewarding but challenging courses.
The fraud is also on the school itself, turning its brand into a message about false kindness and, yes, not-so-benign racism.
It is therefore also a fraud on every alumnus, faculty member, employee and trustee; all those whose interests and loyalties depend on the school being true to its mission.
The corruption is so widespread that I don't see how it can be cured except by a general collapse in the industry. A "Great Re-set" indeed.
Math is racist - DIE Barbie.
Somebody should write a book about this problem!
Or MIT could do as almost all other elite schools have done and offer degrees in "_______ Studies."
Hah! Math is hard.
I remember when "moron" was considered a scientific, technical term.
The oldest quote for "moron" in the OED is:
"1910 H. H. Goddard Let. 29 Apr. in Jrnl. Psycho-asthenics Sept.–Dec. 65 The other (suggestion) is to call them [sc. feeble-minded children] by the Greek word ‘moron’. It is defined as one who is lacking in intelligence, one who is deficient in judgement or sense."
2 years after that: "1912 H. H. Goddard Kallikak Family 54 The type of feeblemindedness of which we are speaking is the one to which Deborah belongs, that is, to the high grade, or moron."
And: "1926 Chicago Tribune 28 Jan. 14/1 Legislation to provide for a moron colony has the support of County Judge Edmund K. Jarecki."
There's a separate entry for a much older use of "moron," which is now obsolete: " A dark-coloured salamander, perhaps the fire salamander, Salamandra salamandra/1774 O. Goldsmith Hist. Earth VII. 141 With respect to the Salamander, the whole tribe, from the Moron to the Gekko, are said to be venomous to the last degree."
What do these have in common?
- Whistling past graveyards.
- Burying one's head in the sand when frightened.
- Walking off a cliff but not falling until one looks down.
- Pretending that 100 years of data on IQ tests and academic success does not exist.
None of these cartoonish fantasies are progressive. Dropping tests is willful, wishful, and the path to guaranteed failure. The California State University system just announced they were dropping the SAT and ACT yesterday. How long until they return, or until their performance rankings fall of the bottom of the US News college list?
https://www.pleasantonweekly.com/news/2022/03/28/csu-drops-use-of-sat-act-tests-for-undergraduate-admissions
Althouse said...
The students I visualize are suffering and properly outraged at the administration for tempting them with an opportunity that they were naive to take.
"It was my understanding that there would be no math."
"They're just at the wrong school because a wrong was done to them."
you Can NOT go through life, concentrating on your mistakes.. you F*cked up; you trusted us
So they treated the incoming students like they were black? Thomas Sowell has pointed out repeatedly that with affirmative action and the need by the white liberals to pat themselves on the back, schools admit good black students to the fast paced programs unprepared. Schools like MIT are set up for the pace and the students arrive having gone to schools that train them to the pace for near a decade. But a bright student who was top of their school in the languid public schools does not have the training to the pace. They would do very well in a less frenetic program. So affirmative action, in reality, often takes promising blacks and breaks them on the campus.
And real learning is about brooding going the wrong way. Gameshow education is about quick response with facts.
Here Joseph Epstein, Andrew Ferguson and Peter Robinson discuss this but weirdly no one wants to change the gameshow, rapid response. system.
https://youtu.be/JF2eJSHKKd0?t=1053
The corporate world including academia has signaled that the woke moment has passed. It took me until now to fully realize how cynical the left really is about all their supposed core beliefs. The pacifist left? Hey, Ukraine, fight and die! The BLM left? George who? The environmental left? So what if renewables actually consume more net energy and create more net carbon? They’re Green! The transgender world will soon find out what fair-weather friends their progressive supporters turn out to be.
Most of us are in no position to jump into fast-paced college physics and calculus!
A large portion of the population is not able to jump into college-level reading.
College textbooks are significantly harder to read than high-school textbooks.
If a person did not really read even his high-school textbooks -- because they were too difficult -- then he will not be able to read his college textbooks.
It's not just that the person lacks the vocabulary and general knowledge. He lacks also the reading skill.
When he reads, he gets lost. He does not follow the train of thought. He cannot summarize the last passage that he read. He does not foresee where the author might be going.
Reading is unpleasant. He avoids doing it. He gives up quickly.
He will fail academically in college.
Where did this adult backbone suddenly emerge from? If the administration abolished entrance exams because they are 'systemically racist' then why have they now abandoned the cause simply because the newly-endowed students can't do the work? The work must ergo be 'systemically racist,' not so? It sounds like the STEM Department Heads, or maybe the Board of Regents, finally gained a place at the policy table - formerly occupied by the Student HR and Social Science representatives.
The only argument that these people will hear is that the alternatives to standardized tests hugely advantages the dullard children of wealthy parents. You can't make the common sense argument because that's populism.
Diversity (i.e. color judgment, class-based bigotry), Inequity, and Exclusion not limited to affirmative discrimination. If they were sincere, they would pursue affirmative action during her formative years, and not wait 8 years or more until they can feign virtue in public spectacles with "benefits".
There was an identical requirement at University of Chicago when I was an undergrad there, lo-o-ong ago. It applied only to science majors, but Calculus and calculus derived physices were requirements. I struggled mightily but got A's in calc and physics, using my not so secret method. Ultimately it was just learning to solve the problems by cook book method, just follow the rules of mathmatics, which would lead to the right answers. We didn't have to know what the answers meant or how to apply them outside of the classroom. Happy to say I have reached old age without ever having to use that knowledge.
But Statistics 220 on the other hand, I didn't even understand what it was I didn't understand. Got a passing grade somehow, but still cringe at the thought of that course.
While there may be an affirmative action element to this, I suspect there were also plenty of white kids who dreamed of helming the next Silicon Valley unicorn, who saw MIT as the express route to that dream, but don’t really have the math skills.
I hate to generalize, but this is the Age of Generalizations, so...
The Left does not like standards. It's been made very clear to me over the years. Standards that have created the most prosperous civilization in the history of mankind (definition: the human race) have been regularly, systematically attacked and when possible, removed. People responsible for those standards, are also either attacked or removed (e.g. Founding Fathers).
The Left demands we defund the police. Crime rises. The Left is surprised. Now trying to hire more police, but the police don't want to work for them anymore. They're all moving to Florida.
The Left demands the removal of college admissions standards such as standardized tests, grades, and accomplishments to be replaced by quotas based on skin color and/or existing vagina. The Left is surprised when it turns out that testing IS an indicator of knowledge and that Math is NOT actually racist, but Science, and that incoming correctly colored and vagina'd people might be struggling with classes if they did not get the training needed for those classes.
I could expand this list to 100 lines but the picture is the same. If you want the next generation to be capable of running their world, you best train them in things the world will require. Multiple pronouns are not one of those things.
Heh. Robert Heinlein once said “Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best, he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear his shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house.” While he was only talking basic math and algebra, MIT is supposed to be the top tech school in the country. If you cannot do Calculus and Physics, you should be going to Harvard or Yale. No one expects them to be particularly STEM savvy. MIT is a different story even today. Reminds me somewhat of my alma mater, Tenn Tech University. HUGE Freshman Engineering program. Then a much smaller Soph program, and the Junior and Senior classes tend to be a lot smaller. But with a much higher GPA...because they already passed all the gateway classes. The progression is Engineering Major becomes Business Major if they cannot do the math, then becomes Education major if they cannot handle what the Business Department calls Quantitative Analysis and what the Engineering Department calls Cookbook Stat. The only exception is the Nursing School, which is aiming to have the same high reputation for its grads the Engineering Department has for its grads ....and is picky about admissions.
I used to tell Italian jokes and the Italians complained. Then I told Polish jokes and the Polish complained. So I went to moron jokes, and now the morons are complaining. - some comedian
Our research shows standardized tests help us better assess the academic preparedness of all applicants, and also help us identify socioeconomically disadvantaged students who lack access to advanced coursework or other enrichment opportunities that would otherwise demonstrate their readiness for MIT.
We are reinstating our SAT/ACT requirement for future admissions cycles
Not our fault. Blame it on the socioeconomically disadvantages students. They should have picked their parents better.
Being smart in high school often means breezing through with little homework, even in subjects like physics. Real first year engineering classes present challenges and always functioned as a way of weeding out people who were not able and willing to make the jump to high-level work. For me calculus seemed easy enough on a day-to-day basis but in 2nd term integral calculus retaining a whole term's content for the final was a bit of a disaster. I had to learn to do roughly twice the work needed just to get by if I was going to really learn the material, and I had high SATs. There are plenty of smart people as well who don't seem to have the mathematical/logical facility to do the work. They would sometimes be in tears at the end of the examination period, with too many questions left blank. They had to eventually find a different path. Perhaps they ended up in law school.
"I remember when "moron" was considered a scientific, technical term."
I do too. Funny. Today I use that word so often to describe so many people, either I'm overusing it or our society as a whole has become 'moronized'. We've truly dumbed down. We're working on our Idiocracy while our talking heads continue to tell us about Democracy.
@Mike Sylvester A large portion of the population is not able to jump into college-level reading.
For all but the elite schools, a major part of the first two years of college involves demonstrating to students that they do not have the skills to match their dreams and ambitions. Wannabe doctor...nope. Wannabe rocket scientist...nope. Wannabe lawyer...nope. The lack of suitability issue increases in direct proportion to the number of students pressured to attend college by (clueless and inexperienced) high school career advisors who tell them they can do anything.
And with that imagined "discrimination" transforms into debt, bitterness, and despair.
“some standardized exams besides the SAT/ACT can help us evaluate readiness, but access to these other exams is generally more socioeconomically restricted relative to the SAT/ACT”
Mike Sylwester says: "A large portion of the population is not able to jump into college-level reading.
College textbooks are significantly harder to read than high-school textbooks.
If a person did not really read even his high-school textbooks -- because they were too difficult -- then he will not be able to read his college textbooks."
This is so true, in STEM as well as in regular classes. Encourage your children to read. ANYTHING. Fiction, non fiction, the back of the cereal box. Hell, the summer after I read all my moms and sisters romance novels for lack of anything else (public library limited us to 3 books, and I only got to go once a week, so that left 5 days to find something to read) I ended up reading the World Book Encyclopedia set pretty much cover to cover on all 26 volumes.
Hell, reading is so important you should pay them to read if that is what it takes.
The implications of this for non-math humanities speak to the unimportance of rigor in those fields. And therefore also to the malleability of the humanities to fit the desired incoming demographic. I wonder if this will ever affect their perceived value.
More than a decade ago, Soros' OSF bought up two major academic departments: the John Jay Criminal Justice and Journalism program, which used to be the place for police and higher-ranking officers to gain degrees and advanced degrees to rise through the ranks and conduct research, and MIT's Digital Technology, Media and Culture Department -- can't remember the precise term. Both were immediately transformed into hardcore leftist cesspools at had once been intellectually rigorous or bastions of sanity for reality-based research and training for journalists who wanted to cover crime beats and policy.
Students from the MIT program literally ran the communications and media uprising part of the Occupy Movement, straight from the playbook of David Graeber and Slavov Zizek.
And yes, it was the administrations' fault at both schools, but it was also the fault of the many faculty who happily pocketed fat grants to destroy the credibility of their own programs or yield to hiring new tenure-track educators who were openly Marxist. MIT set out to expand capacities to monitor and censor internet speech and invade privacy; John Jay went from being "The Cop's University" to an epicenter of anti-police, anti-incarceration slop fed out to the pigs in the media.
I had several high school friends who went to MIT. We were in an IBM town, after all, and the Asian and South Asian engineers had no interest in sending their offspring (male, anyway) to some Ivy League joke of a school. They wanted them to become scientists and engineers.
I guess that 'eliminate the SAT' program produced precisely the expected results. Give parents a choice, and they will choose to send their children to schools where they actually have to pass tests to get in.
Soros also either invented or handed out grants to race and ethnicity agitators -- front-groups really -- that have created all the agitation that led to schools abandoning the SAT/ACT in the first place. No normal parents wanted this for their kids: it was an entirely fake movement astroturfed by Soros.
We are us all morons. This is how I raised my kids in the era of boosting self esteem. Because we were all morons, school was geared for morons and straight A's was the minimum standard required. Because my children recognized the truth of my moron theory of humanity, they knew they had to work hard to understand the material. The moron theory also teaches that if something goes wrong, it's because you made a stupid mistake so double check everything to discover where you went off the rails. Another aspect of the moron theory is that the dumbest among us humans are college educated and the sharpest morons work with their hands and bodies building things. This is why we stressed art, athletics, shop class and working.
The boy easily got into MIT and earned the keys to the machine shop before the end of freshman year. He's now a finalist in the Avatar XPrise and is currently at the Mars conference.
The girl is the only female director of a biotech startup focused on accelerated single cell analysis for curing cancer and other horrible diseases.
I've got morons on my team. Splat, bingo.
In other words- another affirmative action failure.
MIT should just get rid of the math exams, too. Diversity in engineering and physics requires it- indeed, demands it.
Mike of Snoqualmie said...
I went to Caltech. It's quite a change from high school...
At Caltech, MIT, RPI, RIT, all the service academies, and probably all engineering schools, at the end of the first grading period half the class finds themselves in the lower 50% academically for the first time in their lives.
And I can pretty much guarantee that the valedictorian from most large city high schools aren't set for success at any of them.
My son, a PSU graduate (BS, MS engineering), related to me the initial physics course was so difficult it would eliminate 50% of the potential engineering graduates - and the students were told so on the first day of class.
Enigma said...
None of these cartoonish fantasies are progressive. Dropping tests is willful, wishful, and the path to guaranteed failure. The California State University system just announced they were dropping the SAT and ACT yesterday. How long until they return, or until their performance rankings fall of the bottom of the US News college list?
The UC system has already dropped the SAT/ACT requirement and I'm seeing rumblings that some of the more expensive LA private schools haven't been able to get any of their seniors accepted in the UC system except the few minority students they have. Needless to say, this is not going to go over well with wealthy, white Lefties in the long term.
Extrapolate how many other wrongs are being done at other institutions, especially those not committed to foundational and rigorous knowledge.
I struggled with calc during undergrad because my math background in HS was fairly weak. Went back to school ten years later to finish the calc sequence and linear algebra before grad school and actually enjoyed it a bit more. I was older and much more focused. And I finally figured out how to study properly and put in the work.
Now I'm working through diff eq problems for fun, trying to learn the basics, and seriously considering switching careers.
Yancey Ward said...
MIT should just get rid of the math exams, too. Diversity in engineering and physics requires it- indeed, demands it.
Aw, Hell! They need to really commit! They need to start doing the faculty payroll using woke math; 2 + 2 = 3! That'd really show them racists a thing or two!
When CalTech moved away from SATs it dawned on me that these tests are quite useless for top notch schools. Indeed, the number of students who score 800 on SAT Math exceeds - by a huge factor - the number of students these colleges want. Therefore, they need tools to sift from among those 800s. And they have them, in the form of AMC 10/12 and AIME competition scores. Thus, I am actually surprised by MIT’s decision.
MIT did make a mistake in accepting unqualified students and should have known better. They made a mistake in going there, but that's not so hard to understand or explain.
How little I knew -- how little anyone knows -- at 17. I'm not going to go into my own experience here, but considering the lack of real knowledge about oneself and the world, the expectations and influence of parents, guidance counselors, and peers, and the soft grading and woeful inadequacy of high school instruction, it shouldn't be too hard to understand why students have trouble in college.
Even when standardized tests were required, many students at elite universities intended to study the hard sciences, but retreated to softer options when they saw the grades they got freshman year, and at MIT such a retreat isn't so easy. I note too, that the students who were prepared in high school and who did do well on exams and in college have a lot of illusions and unrecognized influences to work through themselves.
At MIT, all of the freshman courses are graded on a pass/fail basis. The idea is that the adjustment to the college learning environment is hard, so the students shouldn't have their GPA be penalized for that transition. There must have been a lot more failures than anticipated.
At my school, Engineering and Finance were considered the hardest majors. Math was involved. I remember sitting for a final exam (Finance) and, in those quiet moments after the exam has been handed out and before everyone starts to work on it, a soft voice came from the back of the room: "Fuck, I don't know any of this shit."
hmm Maybe there is a Solution, to All our Problems
problems
Minority students seldom to go school, and If they do, they seldom learn
Testing is RACIST!!
Schools are NOT supposed to discriminate racially
Many minorities Demand reparations
reparations would be expensive, and Who is going to pay?
solution
All those with slave ancestors receive Free, Honorary Diplomas!!!
Now, minority folk won't have to waste their time not going to class!
Testing can continue, because testing will Only be for those Without degrees
Schools WON'T be discriminating, on accord of because, No minority folk will go
Minority folk GET reparations!!
reparations would be cost free! (except for a increased number of engineering related accidents)
see? Problems SOLVED!!! (except for a increased number of engineering related accidents)
But, do you Honestly Care; if a bridge will stand, or a plane will stay in the air?
Isn't a somewhat more dangerous world a Small Price to pay?
It's not an intelligence issue and these students are not necessarily morons. I had a similar experience 50 years ago. Very poor family. Neither parent got otr of high school. Only my mother still alive and she could barely read. My grades were above average because a went to an urban high school and I did well in SAT's etc. I ended up getting a full academic scholarship to a good state school. First time away from home, no family support system, large school = easy to get lost. In 6 months I was gone. It wasn't that I was stupid. I just had no idea how to study, plan my day, prioritize and avoid distractions. Even smart people at that age need some structure. If they come from families who can't provide it and the institution won't provide it, it doesn't;t matter how smart they are, they will likely fail.
"Our research can’t explain why these tests are so predictive of academic preparedness for MIT, but we believe it is likely related to the centrality of mathematics — and mathematics examinations — in our education."
"Our research can't explain…". Oh, boy. There are morons in this story but, yeah, they aren't the students. I didn't realize MIT had joined this bandwagon. How embarrassing.
When all this equity stuff started I was comforted by the thought that it would not invade my beloved STEM. How could it? Contrary to the woke crowds pronouncements, there are CORRECT answers in these fields and it takes hard work, study, and yes, smarts, to be able to obtain them. And obtaining them is critical or bridges fall down, planes fall from the sky, power systems fail, people freeze to death, scientific progress falters. How could MIT not know this? Surely the scientists do. Was this forced by the administrators? Was the pressure to conform overwhelming?
I'll say it again. Embarrassing.
It's not an intelligence issue and these students are not necessarily morons. I had a similar experience 50 years ago. Very poor family. Neither parent got otr of high school. Only my mother still alive and she could barely read. My grades were above average because a went to an urban high school and I did well in SAT's etc. I ended up getting a full academic scholarship to a good state school. First time away from home, no family support system, large school = easy to get lost. In 6 months I was gone. It wasn't that I was stupid. I just had no idea how to study, plan my day, prioritize and avoid distractions. Even smart people at that age need some structure. If they come from families who can't provide it and the institution won't provide it, it doesn't;t matter how smart they are, they will likely fail.
Our research can’t explain why these tests are so predictive of academic preparedness for MIT
What a mystery!!!!!
The applicants try to answer a lot of mathematics questions. Those applicants who answer the questions poorly are likely to fail mathematics classes at MIT.
The applicants try to answer a lot of reading questions. Those applicants who answer the questions poorly are likely to fail humanities classes at MIT.
Why -- oh, why? -- are such tests so predictive of academic preparedness? Our research cannot explain it!!!!
I'm circulating the MIT announcement around my office as an example of using too many footnotes.
My HS grades were crap, and included the bare minimum of STEM. SAT/ACT got me into the local mediocre state u, and my son into a better one and more rigorous program. But I was a match, and he wasn't, so his college career was brief.
I missed getting a second major in polisci because of a long-avoided stat course.
Oh well. As it turns out there are a great many things an intelligent but not math-abled person can find to do in life, and history is more interesting than polisci too.
Of course, if having a lot of money is important one proceeds to mediocre state u law school as some of my friends did.
@muzovir:Indeed, the number of students who score 800 on SAT Math exceeds - by a huge factor - the number of students these colleges want.
That's because the SATs were renormed in the 90s. Before the renorming perfect scores were nearly unheard of. The renorming was designed to spread out the scores of the middle performers and lump all the high performers to 800.
A >730 verbal or >780 math renormed to 800.
"When CalTech moved away from SATs it dawned on me that these tests are quite useless for top notch schools. Indeed, the number of students who score 800 on SAT Math exceeds - by a huge factor - the number of students these colleges want. Therefore, they need tools to sift from among those 800s. And they have them, in the form of AMC 10/12 and AIME competition scores. Thus, I am actually surprised by MIT’s decision."
Yes- this is an important point that is frequently missed. I took a glance at the present day's SAT math section a couple of years ago- it seemed easier to me than the one I took in 1983-84 on which I scored in the low 700s with basically nothing but algebra I and II in high school. I imagine the distribution of real talent for those at 800 today is probably much wider than it generally believed, and the SAT and the ACT can't reveal that spread at all.
The students likely had been in the very tops of their very uncompetitive high schools and had been given A plusplusplus in every course their entire academic lives. Their teachers loved them and heaped praise on them constantly.
The kids weren’t morons but they were given to believe they were geniuses. Reality is hard.
@Jefferson's Revenge
I worry about people like you. I hope things turned out well.
It's important to remember that to the SJW crowd everything is power.
The rest of us assume math competence is necessary in order to build bridges that don't fall down.
To the SJW crowd, "math competence" is a tool that people who build bridges use to allow people they like the privilege of getting to build bridges. They honestly don't think that "passing Calculus" means anything but "acting white" enough to get through the gatekeepers. They don't understand math themselves, so they honestly believe that if the math professor gives you an A that makes you as competent as you need to be.
Ergo, to fix structural racism, make it easier for minorities to get into the good schools and get As while there. That will automagically make them good at building bridges or whatever it is those STEM people do.
“A large portion of the population is not able to jump into college-level reading.“
This.
I teach English Lit at a New York City public college and boy howdy they do not understand what they read—not all of them but a good 50%. They may pass my class via Cliff notes or other cheat sheets, but many won’t graduate. It’s a cynical method of collecting tuition or, since most of these kids qualify for full ride aid, tax dollars.
I know when I taught physics to college juniors and seniors, many of them could not read their textbook. They could not read long words, for example they'd read "remediation" as "redemption". (Lots of students have been taught to look at the beginning and end of a word and guess.)
One professor I knew was so frustrated she made the students read the textbook out loud, one after another, like second grade. She had to stop because she was humiliating the ones who could not read.
Well designed tests identify those with intellectual capacity. But for those tests, many [people with potential would be denied a chance to develop. That is a significant harm.
Once you move away from quantitative measures, you have systems based upon a mix of politics, corruption, and subtle ingratiation.
Thank you Ann. I used in to my advantage by getting into sales and then started my own company. Moderately successful. But I never forgot where I came from. Socially, I have a lot of friends who came from second and third generation wealth and when they hear about my childhood and early adulthood they are speechless. Literally. I take great satisfaction from that..
Mathematics doesn't care anything at all about your group identity unless you're studying set theory.
Do teachers capture the imaginations of the students? A friend at a top seed high school was only an average physics student. His father was one of the premier theoretical physicists in the country, head of the largest corporation in the country's physics lab. At a PTA festival day the parent went in and played dumb with the child's instructor. Parent later exonerated the child saying the instructor was best suited for putting a class to sleep. My understanding is that such teachers abound in the urban schools today. I could be wrong.
I graduated from MIT in 1973 and it sounds like the curriculum hasn’t changed that much. In my day there were three introductory physics classes: Physics for Engineers, Physics for Scientists, and Physics for Idiots. I took the latter. It, too, required the ability to use differential calculus. There’s no way to get through MIT without calculus, and a lot more math if you major in engineering or science.
I suspect this is also a response to the huge increase in applications. From 20000 for class of 24 to almost 34000 for class of 26. Acceptance rate fell below 4%.
Given the destruction this admissions decision caused - I.e. high rate of low performing students with possible high debt - will anyone in the admissions department lose their job? Will MIT absorb the debt? This seems to have been an avoidable scenario for anyone with common sense. The threat of the loss of a well-paying job focuses the mind.
MIT can’t afford to have fewer donating alums over the course of a few years….
I like the source's use of "Admission" rather than the standard "Admissions" Department, since it's the department being forced to admit that SAT scores are actually useful predictors of first-year success.
Of course, once MIT's freshman class is once again full of students who buried the needle on the SAT it will once more appear to be useless as a predictor of anything but socioeconomic status--and thereby presumptively racist.
The state of California tested me, and the results say that I am really smart, despite the many stupid things that I do.
That said, I am not MIT smart, and certainly not math-smart.
Could I study reaaaalllly hard and squeak by?
Maybe.
But when it comes to the ability to understand advanced mathematics, there are levels.
And I am smart enough to know that I am closer to the basement than the penthouse : )
Excerpt from "When is an African American student not Black?
"One day in pre-calculus, my friend turned toward me and asked, “Why do you act like that?” “Act like what?” I responded, genuinely confused as to what he was referring to. “You know,” he said. “Like, not Black. I was flabbergasted that he would ask me this question because he was black as well. Little did I know that this was the beginning of me being labeled as 'Asianized.' To my African American classmates, being 'Asianized' meant that I had been brainwashed to academically perform as an Asian student would. I was never referred to as a high-achieving African American student."
- Zewditu Nora Herring of Oakland
Winner of the “Think for Yourself” college scholarship essay contest
They honestly don't think that "passing Calculus" means anything but "acting white" enough to get through the gatekeepers. They don't understand math themselves, so they honestly believe that if the math professor gives you an A that makes you as competent as you need to be.
All too true. Stanford now has its Physics class for POCs. Affirmative Action does this. Nobody has read "Mismatch," that should know this.
I have a friend--now in his mid 80's who spent his career working for NASA at Vandenberg AFB/Pacific Missile Range. He told me he was surprised when he was hired by NASA because he had "graduated in the middle of his class". Well as Paul Harvey used to say, "there's more to the story".
My friend had enrolled as an engineering student at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. There were 300 freshman engineering students. The Dean of Engineering told the incoming 300 that he would flunk out half of them at the end of their freshman year, and at least half again at the end of their sophomore year. He would do so because, "I don't have the faculty or classroom space for upper division engineering courses for all of you."
The Dean was a man of more than his word. Four years later my friend was one of six students from that entering class of 300 to graduate with an engineering degree. And yes he was "middle of the class" since he ranked 3rd.
I asked my friend why such terrible attrition had occurred. He replied that the engineering curriculum required complete mastery of each subject taught; and unless you had done that, you would struggle in the next course and you could never catch up. Math and math related physics classes are like steps--and you have to master each step before you can succeed on the next one--and many don't.
Commenter Tim saw something similar in his experience at Tennessee Tech.
Blogger Humperdink said...
My son, a PSU graduate (BS, MS engineering), related to me the initial physics course was so difficult it would eliminate 50% of the potential engineering graduates - and the students were told so on the first day of class.
On my first day of Physics class, the professor said, "Look at the person in front of you, behind you and on either side. By the end of this class only one of you will still be here."
“When CalTech moved away from SATs it dawned on me that these tests are quite useless for top notch schools. Indeed, the number of students who score 800 on SAT Math exceeds - by a huge factor - the number of students these colleges want. Therefore, they need tools to sift from among those 800s. And they have them, in the form of AMC 10/12 and AIME competition scores. Thus, I am actually surprised by MIT’s decision”
That’s the thing - 800 SATs keep a lot of the riff raff from applying. My kid scored close, high enough for all the top liberal arts colleges (Williams, Amherst, etc), but not high enough for MIT, so didn’t apply there. They probably could have survived it, but it would have been very hard, and they wouldn’t have enjoyed it, or at least not nearly as much as they did. Ended up getting a PhD in ME anyway from a well ranked school.
Similar to me (no PhD though), with similar pre-normed math SATs, except that I did apply to MIT, and didn’t get in (I would have been in the class ahead of Douglas Levene). I was 2nd or 3rd in my HS class in math (and math SATs), and probably didn’t belong there. The one guy in our class who did belong, who helped the teacher teach calculus to us dummies, belonged there, and went.
These are the standard requirements of all engineering schools as far as I know, based on my UConn degree from the 1970s. In fact when my son went to Boston University 10 years ago they also required at least one differential equations class on top of that. The important thing is that there should be no grade inflation in engineering and sciences, and that seems to be the case at MIT. Otherwise they wouldn't care.
To the point on the limitation of top SAT scores today. There is a high intelligence society Triple Nine (TNS). Accepts almost 30 different test scores for admission depending on year of the test. But does not accept SAT after February 2005.
'A large portion of the population is not able to jump into college-level reading.'
When I attended a state university as a freshman, everyone had to take a basic English test to see if they could skip 'bonehead' English.
It was laughably easy.
But back then, nobody whined about self-esteem problems, and the results were posted on the bulletin board.
I was shocked at how many people failed the test...
"This is so true, in STEM as well as in regular classes. Encourage your children to read. ANYTHING. Fiction, non fiction, the back of the cereal box. "
This is so true. My father had only an 8th grade education, but loved to read, as did my mother (who did graduate high school). We always had books in the house and we were always encouraged to read. I did the same for my children and they are doing the same with my grandchildren. If you start reading to your children nightly when they are very young, they will soon take over the reading for themselves. My father always said, "If you learn to read, then you can learn to do anything".
I read a study a few years back that said the number of bookcases in a family's home, was an indicator of how well the children of that family would do in school. Besides our household small library room, each bedroom has its own bookshelf.
Ah, I remember my first day in physics class, the professor, later Nobelist, handed out a thick set of mimeographed notes on tensors for us to study. I'm not sure why, the text (Feynman Lectures) didn't require them, but it set the tone. Many in the class had attended specialized schools, so those of us from more ordinary schools needed to work hard. It was a good education, but many would probably do better with a more gentle introduction and a more traditional text.
"They're just at the wrong school because a wrong was done to them."
MIT did not stop requiring SAT math scores because of some grand theory of socioeconomic discrimination.
They suspended the requirement (but allowed voluntary submission) for one year and then a second because the SAT testing system was seriously disrupted due to Covid restrictions and some substantial number of students were unable to take the test under fair conditions.
They noted at the time that "we consistently find that considering performance on the SAT/ACT, particularly the math section, substantially improves the predictive validity of our decisions with respect to subsequent student success at the Institute" and planned to reinstate the requirement "when public health situation would improve such that taking the tests would be safe and accessible to everyone well in advance of the application deadline."
Judge them on the decision harshly if you must but judge them based on the facts. As they planned, they have now reinstated the test requirement that they acknowledged then and now as critical to admission decisions.
The students admitted without the SAT weren't wronged by they University. Some of them were given an opportunity they would not otherwise have had.
Some may have failed but others may have thrived.
MIT?! Everyone always knew this. Simply unbelievable.
First Tenor, 9:18:
"At MIT, all of the freshman courses are graded on a pass/fail basis....There must have been a lot more failures than anticipated."
There were a lot more suicides.
Freshman class was composed of students who were not only the strongest in their school, they were used to people being amazed with their brilliance. The kind of student who obsessed about academic achievement was well represented - not to mention the kind of kid who hadn't had much of a social life. (As one of my undergrads put it, "Work, friends, sleep: Choose two.")
Now imagine when that kid gets his very first D. Most coped. Too many didn't.
"we consistently find that considering performance on the SAT/ACT, particularly the math section, substantially improves the predictive validity of our decisions with respect to subsequent student success at the Institute" and planned to reinstate the requirement "when public health situation would improve...
That's a fair statement and policy.
So, once again, reality has trumped (!) the magical thinking prevalent in lala-land. Also interesting that this comes at the same time as the Harvard/UNC appeals alleging discrimination against high-performing Asian kids are getting teed up in the SCOTUS. It's easy to see how one's reaction to developments like this can influence how one reacts to thee ostensibly distinct arguments in those appeals.
"Most of us are in no position to jump into fast-paced college physics and calculus!"
Which is why you didn't to apply to MIT. And MIT would have been ill-advised to admit you if you had. But there are thousands of kids who take a year or more of calculus and physics in high school. For them, this kind of coursework is a more rigorous refresher, and they have the study habits needed to do well at it. MIT could easily have filled its classrooms twice over with such students.
Cal States ended their use of the SAT for admission.
Reason is:
“In essence, we are eliminating our reliance on a high-stress, high-stakes test that has shown negligible benefit,”
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/cal-state-university-system-drops-sat-act-admission-requirement-01648073500
So much for the excellence of Cal Poly San Luis Obispo's Engineering Program.
"Freshman class was composed of students who were not only the strongest in their school, they were used to people being amazed with their brilliance."
Right. And they failed Calculus? Not buying it. Calculus isn't that hard, folks.
Lots of interesting comments on this post. In addition to helping make admissions decisions, these tests can also be used diagnostically to help identify students who may benefit from taking remedial or other preparatory courses. At a state university where I taught, every
student that scored below a low cutoff score on the ACT, became candidates for remedial courses in writing and math. These students then had to take additional standardized, diagnostic tests to confirm their levels of competence and then placed in the appropriate remedial or prerequisite classes.
Indeed, the number of students who score 800 on SAT Math exceeds - by a huge factor - the number of students these colleges want. Therefore, they need tools to sift from among those 800s. And they have them, in the form of AMC 10/12 and AIME competition scores. Thus, I am actually surprised by MIT’s decision.
An excellent point . . if MIT had moved in the direction of relying on even more selective exams. But it seems evident that they didn't -- the whole point of abolishing standardised exams (whether it's making it easier for the stupid children of rich families to get in without resorting to fraud, making it easier to conceal discrimination against Asians, or adding more non-Asian minorities) would be lost.
But more generally, MIT isn't solely a math school -- they don't need all math geniuses in their chemistry or biology departments. A selection process directed at getting people who excel at a certain sort of math problem isn't necessarily going to identify students who are a good match for other areas (even in mathematics). Rather, you just need to make sure students are good enough to do the work.
Overall, though, I am most impressed that their response was to tighten admissions again rather than relaxing academics. My impression is that my own alma mater, Harvey Mudd, has chosen the opposite path in its quest for gender and racial balance. And I think that was a great pity for Mudd.
Anne, you're forgetting the most important group of people to blame here, the student's administration, ie, the parents. If they allowed themselves to be convinced their little darlings could cope with one of the most demanding programs on the planet, they bear some responsibility.
Calculus is why I went to law school.
"There were a lot more suicides."
Anything to back that up? It's a relatively small school so "a lot more" would be easy to spot.
As frosh in college this future history najor had 3 science roommates. There were 4 intro physics courses on offer. A double credit seminar for true geniuses (since discontinued); a course for future STEM grad students; a course for premeds; and a course for humanities majors seeking to fulfill a distribution requirement ("physics for poets"). We were each enrolled in one. I dropped out after the first class. The genius ended up a concert pianist (he now codes for projects requiring a security clearance), one got a PhD at Harvard, the other an MD at Columbia. It was an interesting intro to college life. I of course was the odd one because I rose last (no labs), except for for Mass Sundays. We stayed together sophmore year, and 2 remained friends for life (one RIP).
I did well in math classes in high school only struggling with Geometry. I knew I needed to be good at math to succeed in my major in college. I was pretty good at at math for Base-2 (aka Binary) and Base-16 (aka Hexadecimal), which are needed in programming computers. When I went to a technical college 43 years ago for computer programming (now called “coding”), we had around 200 students in my incoming class. One of my teachers who taught programming, on the first day of class of class said bluntly that his job was not only to teach that particular course, but also to weed out the students who couldn’t program a computer properly. I myself passed the class by the skin of my teeth. After being a top 10% student in high school who didn’t have to study 3 hours a night at home for the HS classes, this got my attention and I buckled down for the rest of my college time. I even retook that class and passed it with flying colors. That teacher did tell me that his rigorous class made me a better student by forcing me to learn how to study better as well as prepared me better to survive in the real world. There were around 50 students left of the 200 that graduated.
So ... if a college application shows excellent high school grades but not-so-great SAT scores, what does that tell MIT? What should it tell the student, the student's parents and the taxpayers? Probably just documents something they all knew already.
>>hawkeyedjb said...
I remember sitting for a final exam (Finance) and, in those quiet moments after the exam has been handed out and before everyone starts to work on it, a soft voice came from the back of the room: "Fuck, I don't know any of this shit."
Ha. Same for me in a couple advanced Stat courses. I took a page out of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and immediately upon getting the exam would write DON'T PANIC at the top. Calmed me down more than once, it did.
One other thing about computer programming. Obama famously said years ago about people who lost their jobs due to his policies, particularly his “green” energy policies, that they should learn how to “code”. That is pure ignorance by a self-proclaimed “smartest man in the room”. In order to code, a programmer needs to know how to think logically. If a person takes legitimate advanced Math classes in high school (not the dumbed downed versions taught in the name of “D.E.I” that the wokesters are championing today), that will train them to think logically. If a programmer doesn’t follow logically laid out steps while coding, the program will at best have bugs and at worst crash. My tough as nails teacher that I referenced in my previous post called bad computer programming GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out. That was a big reason why only 25% of my incoming class in 1979 graduated with programming degrees. Also, knowing Base-2 math. In Base-2, there are 2 digits - 0 (off) and 1 (on). At their core level, everything a computer does is in either 0’s or 1’s. If a coder doesn’t understand Base-2 concepts, then they may have trouble debugging the software they write if they have to get to that level of debugging.
boatbuilder said...
"Calculus is why I went to law school."
Hah! Ulysses and Gravity's Rainbow are why I went to business school.
I give MIT credit for maintaining their rigorous requirements. Too many universities have carved out undemanding pathways to accommodate less-prepared and, in too many cases, less-serious students and their tuition dollars.
My history classes are the reason some people didn't go to law school. (If you believe the whining, anyway.)
Human diversity amazes me. Some commenters say Algebra was easy but Geometry hard (I found the opposite), and others insist that none of it is particularly hard . . .
I test better than OK, but higher math in the classroom stymied me every time and I avoided it as much as possible. My father was a bit of a math whiz AFAIK and might have been able to coach me into understanding if he had lived, but my interest in understanding all that stuff was low, as low as my interest in botany or basketball.
Perhaps there are people who are math-deaf, or math-blind. Like tone-deaf or color-blind.
Rabel, 12:19:
Well, I was echoing First Tenor's comment when I wrote "a lot more." I don't know if there was an acceleration in particular. I do think there was an accumulation.
When I got there for grad school in 1994, this is what we (incoming TAs) were told about the "hidden" freshman grades: that every year one or two freshmen committed suicide after getting the first unexceptional grade of their life. I did some Googling around to see if I was full of crap before answering you. I'm finding a lot of "when I got there, we were told." Could it have been an urban myth? I suppose so.
But I could also believe that one or two suicides out of a freshman class of 1200 or 1300, after enough years, would inspire the administration to take steps to relieve a little bit of the pressure at first – and to lessen the tendency for some obsessive high-achievers to think their bright futures were irreversibly dashed by one failure (or one non-A, or the knowledge that there are actually lots of people smarter than them, just not normally in one place.)
JPS, there is debate over whether the difficulty of the coursework causes a higher than normal suicide rate at MIT, or if that rate is just a reflection of the student body, or if it even exists.
I can't find any evidence that the two classes admitted without an SAT requirement were exceptional.
FWIW, my brother flunked out of MIT!!! Organic Chemistry did him in. And his study habits.
He did fine afterwards.
It seems to me this announcement is a good deal more important than simply as a way to talk about the word "moron." Hopefully it will get LOTS of attention. It is a sign that mismatch theory is confirmed to a dramatic degree at MIT. Temujin once again beat me to the punch. Jefferson's Revenge also gets at it. People promoted via misguided affirmative action programs that dumb down admission standards find themselves in over their head when confronted with actual rigorous courses. MIT's stress on math only makes this experience horribly worse, I can well believe. Students' reactions to this may include some kind of decent awareness about it, as Jefferson's Revenge appears to have had. But may also lead many students into a stance of defensive anger, a retreat to a subgroup to lick wounds and complain, a switching of plans to easier courses (e.g. grievance "studies" boondoggles), thereby emerging less prepared than the students would have been had they gone to a slightly less demanding school. Of course there are lucrative DEI positions galore for such people now. But perhaps not enough racist boulders for them to occupy their time railing against.
I placed out of two semesters of calculus via the AP tests, but I don't think I would have been smart enough for MIT. I'm surprised a majority of the freshmen there doesn't test out of the math requirement, or does MIT not accept AP results?
I had to live at home because I couldn't afford to live in a dorm.
Try studying calculus while your mother is going through menopause.
When I went to a technical college 43 years ago for computer programming (now called “coding”), we had around 200 students in my incoming class. One of my teachers who taught programming, on the first day of class of class said bluntly that his job was not only to teach that particular course, but also to weed out the students who couldn’t program a computer properly. I myself passed the class by the skin of my teeth.
After I retired and spent a year at Dartmouth, I decided to take some Computer Science classes. I was in my 50s and had done some programming before medical school but that was in the dark ages. I took an early programming class and the classroom was overflowing as classes began. By the final there were 6 of us left.
Narr said...
Human diversity amazes me. Some commenters say Algebra was easy but Geometry hard (I found the opposite), and others insist that none of it is particularly hard . . .
Perhaps there are people who are math-deaf, or math-blind. Like tone-deaf or color-blind.
=================================
I had trouble with Geometry in high school but aced Algebra, Trigonometry, Analytics, Statistics, and Calculus. My youngest son, who is autistic, couldn’t figure out Algebra yet Geometry came really easy for him. He was also great in his Computer Assisted Drawing class for Engineering in HS. It was almost like he can visualize shapes in his mind and then put it on paper or in the CAD program. Go figure.
My oldest son was really good at all types of math in HS and college. Good thing as he uses the calculus and trigonometry for his job.
Rabel,
"there is debate over whether the difficulty of the coursework causes a higher than normal suicide rate at MIT, or if that rate is just a reflection of the student body, or if it even exists."
Oh, I believe it, and I know attribution is a terribly tricky thing.
"FWIW, my brother flunked out of MIT!!! Organic Chemistry did him in. And his study habits."
Sorry to see that! I'm curious whether he took Orgo from the late, great (weird and awesome) Dan Kemp. And I'm glad he did fine afterward.
"Enigma said...
The UC system has already dropped the SAT/ACT requirement and I'm seeing rumblings that some of the more expensive LA private schools haven't been able to get any of their seniors accepted in the UC system except the few minority students they have. Needless to say, this is not going to go over well with wealthy, white Lefties in the long term."
I think this is a core issue here. Last June in most famous private schools the minority students were accepted at major universities and the others, not. Who's going to pay $50,000 for a school that doesn't get your kid into the top universities? Just because the discontent and pushback is skillful at flying below the radar and is not being covered doesn't mean it doesn't exist. "Wealthy White Parents Issue Ultimatums to Private Schools" You won't see that but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Having previously lived in Atlanta for years, I knew a number of people who had either gone to Georgia Tech or had kids going there. The expectation was that if you survived the school at all you knew it would take you 5 years to get your bachelor's degree. The workload, difficulty level, the standards were so tough that the very brightest needed 5 years to get through the computer science curriculum for a BS. Not even talking about an MS.
Georgia Tech is a great school. But it's not MIT. I cannot imagine any of these top tiered engineering schools dropping standards for admissions without entirely throwing away their textbooks, their professors, and their reputations. And importantly, I cannot imagine the cruelty in admitting kids you know are not up to the standards. To what purpose?
Readering — touching that you kept in touch with some of your freshmen roommates. I (also a future History major) unfortunately have not, but I have kept track of them. All of them I think rose higher than me, though I have been able to carve out a career in software that will probably keep me from having to eat cat food in retirement. Three of my freshman roommates were pre-med (this was at a small liberal arts college known in part for its pre-med program) and so they all fought their way through some brutal science courses, organic chem in particular. One is a clinical oncologist who directs research in new anti-cancer drugs; two are pediatricians, one of whom works on improving medical school programs to reduce risks of suicide and other pathologies. A fourth roommate is a successful executive in the insurance industry. I’m guessing that all four of these guys worked a lot harder in high school than I did and arrived at college better prepared to tackle the work than I was.
My HS friends were fairly brainy--many of them took and mastered the math courses I avoided--but the real high-achievers got into much better colleges than we did, and were seen no more. We tended to go down the street, whether at overgrown normal school u or semi-demi-Ivy, or maybe across the state
At my state u, faculty were more likely to suicide during early semesters than students.
Not really, other than some disappointed and depressed students in the few really good grad programs we had, after many years of mounting loans.
Even so, I faced a few tearful "But I've always made straight A's!" after handing back exams.
I'd like to think that the college I started out in had fixed their truly wretched mental health service so that fewer students committed suicide, but after the director of the service killed himself, I gave up hope that things would ever change.
I’m an MIT grad - 1976. Pretty sure I only got in because of SAT and achievement tests. Blue collar family so Princeton was not interested. 3 out of 7 in my fraternity pledge class graduated. Was afraid to talk to professors until I was a TA at Cornell, and I had to. IHTFP was a favored initialism back then.
My experience is that math and physics (and stats) teachers in high school and college are not really very good teachers…and they have attitude. The lack of effective teaching skills among these teachers, and the conceit that their knowledge is beyond the comprehension of most liberal arts students, insults the very real analytical skills of these students and robs society of a cohort of liberal arts students familiar with a strong understanding of math beyond arithmetic. Many people already unknowingly use math, including algebra and physics, in every day life. The failure in building on these experiences and of engaging students in something other than esoteric concepts is detrimental to all of us, including those developing public policy.
I excempt from my comments those in the engineering, medical, and related areas where training seems to be more directed toward practical applications…I think.
A little late to the party here, but since I went to MIT in the 1970s, perhaps I can offer some perspective:
I remember when a woman from the MIT admissions office came to talk at our high school, said at one point, "Occasionally we even take a math SAT score down in the high 600s if the person has something really special going for them." Some of my friends who attended the session basically to get out of a class groaned when they heard that.
I was there shortly after MIT instituted pass/no-credit for freshman. (Better than pass/fail, because a failure did not go on your transcript.) Word in the student body was that this was because there had been several suicides, but the administration said that it was to reduce pressure in general.
It caused a bit of a problem if you wanted to get the "good student discount" on auto insurance. But the school gave me (and anyone else who asked) a letter to give to the insurance company that basically said, "This is MIT! Got it?"
When my kids were in high school recently, I got a bunch of questions from other parents asking if I thought MIT would be a good fit for their child. I asked them if their kid had to work hard to get A's in math and science. If they answered yes, I would immediately say that their kid did not belong at MIT. I still believe it is a school for kids who can ace these courses in high school without breaking a sweat.
If they answered no, I would then ask if the kid breathed/ate/slept math and science. If they answered no to that, I told them that their kid would not be happy at MIT. It is (or at least was) and incredibly focused school
Been there, did that . Class of ‘74. The suicide issue was Asian students who had not just failed but had thus disgraced their families and could not face them upon flunking a class. My public HS did not teach calculus and I had never had to study hard in my life. Took me a semester to adjust but I got through it. Course VII (Biology) required a third semester of Calculus, 18.03, a.k.a. Ordinary Differential Equations, and a third semester of Physics, 8.03, Special Relativity. M.I.T. has about 27% Asian heritage kids - their parents make them study, take courses on weekends, no sports, all through K - 12.
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