"After the two sides departed, Kremlin aide Vladimir Medinsky, the head of the Russian delegation, said that they had found 'certain points where we forecast common ground' and that they expected to meet again in the coming days after consulting with their respective presidents.... Ukraine’s goal was an immediate cease-fire and Russian withdrawal. Russian President Vladimir Putin has demanded that Ukraine accept the loss of the eastern Donbas region, which he recognized as two independent republics a week ago. Putin has also insisted that Ukraine end its quest to join NATO, remove all its weapons and recognize Crimea, annexed in 2014, as part of Russia."
From "Russian bombardment of Ukraine’s second city intensifies as talks fail to yield breakthrough" (WaPo).
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If this summary is accurate, why doesn't Ukraine just take the best deal available and declare victory. Sounds like Putin is looking for a way out.
If this summary is accurate, why doesn't Ukraine just take the best deal available and declare victory. Sounds like Putin is looking for a way out.
The irony is that city is in the Russian speaking part of Ukraine. They should be supporting Putin and he is bombing them. Hmmmmm.
If this summary is accurate, why doesn't Ukraine just take the best deal available and declare victory. Sounds like Putin is looking for a way out.
"Russian President Vladimir Putin has demanded that Ukraine accept the loss of the eastern Donbas region, which he recognized as two independent republics a week ago. Putin has also insisted that Ukraine end its quest to join NATO, remove all its weapons and recognize Crimea, annexed in 2014, as part of Russia."
"All I want is the Sudentenland. It is entirely unfair that all those true Germans should be forced to live under the Czech government!"
That doesn't sound at all familiar to what's happening in Ukraine
/sarc
The correct long term solution is that every single person of "Russian extraction" gets a choice: they can move back to Russia, or they can accept that they're going to be under a non Russian government.
Sadly, we're unlikely to get that right now.
OTOH, if the Russian logistics are as bad as they currently appear to be, then the Russian invaders in Ukraine could more or less collapse in the next 1 - 2 weeks, as their supplies run out.
In which case much more becomes possible.
Putin wants everything at no cost.
We, i.e. humanity, have been through this before, and Putin knows this well -- he's ruthless and evil but not stupid, though he's counting on stupid people to pull off the greatest heist in history.
Unfortunately for Ukraine, there's plenty of weapons-grade stupid in the White House available to grease Putin's path to a restored Russian empire.
"Russian President Vladimir Putin has demanded that Ukraine accept the loss of the eastern Donbas region, which he recognized as two independent republics a week ago. Putin has also insisted that Ukraine end its quest to join NATO, remove all its weapons and recognize Crimea, annexed in 2014, as part of Russia."
IOW, Ukraine has to become a neutral buffer state, with some territorial concessions favoring Russian minorities. This should have been on the table and negotiable from Ukraine's point of view for some time. Yes, it leaves Ukraine vulnerable (though more ethnically unified), but the alternative is worse: Russia will not accept a big NATO country on its border, and trying to force the issue brings more destruction. It does not hurt us to help Ukraine be nice to Russia, even now, after the invasion. In fact, giving Putin his buffer zone removes a very big irritant for us, provided we give up the illusion that we can turn Ukraine into a full-fledged partner of the West. In the short run, it makes some sense to raise the cost to Putin, but in the end the dispute has to be settled. Just squeezing the Russians won't do it.
That 6 days into this, Russia has not taken Kharkiv, which is almost right at the Russian border, and in the area of its highest troop concentrations and local air superiority ... speaks immense volumes about the incompetence of the Russian military, AND -- given that two--thirds of the population there is Russian -- of the astounding extent that even Russo-Ukrainians do not want the Russians messing in their country.
"If this summary is accurate, why doesn't Ukraine just take the best deal available and declare victory." Sensible solution, but no one is looking at sensible right now.
"Sounds like Putin is looking for a way out." As with virtually all comment on this war, people are freely mind-reading Putin. I don't why this is "a way out", and not "exactly what Putin has been asking for since before the war ever started".
@Quaestor "he's counting on stupid people to pull off the greatest heist in history." Uh, that area has been under dispute for more than a decade now? https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/status/1498461993052868610?cxt=HHwWhMC41crPzcspAAAA
Are not there parts of New York city That Vladimir Putin could invade based on the premise of ethnic Russians populating areas? I know that there were plane loads of Russian Jews arriving in Baltimore after the USSR collapsed.
@Sebastian, agree completely but unfortunately there's probably no way to put the toothpaste back in the tube. When W waffled on Crimea in 2008 because he wanted Putin to play nice during the GWOT and Obama did the same in Donbas in 2014 because he didn't want Putin to scuttle the fig leaf over the Iran nuclear giveaway, there was no longer any reason for Putin to think Ukraine was in any sort of Western security envelope, despite claims it could at some unspecified point join NATO. That we're still laboring under the Wilsonian fantasy of self-determination and nationhood even though it's been completely corrupted by all sundry but especially thugs like Putin doesn't help matters. No country's borders completely and exclusively contain a homogenous population.
If we had recognized from the git-go that the best we could hope for was a neutral buffer ala Austria during the Cold War everybody would be better off now. Going back to status quo ante isn't going to be enough to get him to give up.
Non-Russia Europe greatly exceeds Russia's population, economy, and technology. If they had been spending their Fair Share (2%) on defense as demanded by the bad orange man, none of this would have happened. If the US and Europe had done what was necessary to keep oil at $50/bbl, as bad orange man had already accomplished, none of this would have happened.
Elections have consequences.
Where were the anti Putin sentiments when Trump was praising Putin and was Putin’s good friend? The change in tone by commenters here regarding Putin is astounding. Hmmm, what changed your minds?
"Are not there parts of New York city That Vladimir Putin could invade based on the premise of ethnic Russians populating areas?"
There are parts of New York I wouldn't advise Putin to try invading.
Once this is over, there will be articles about how the U's don't allow transgenders in their military, and don't allow unlimited abortions, and the left will do yet another screeching 180 about how heroic and flawless the U's are. They will be flawed at best, possibly deplorable.
I wish I were kidding. I'm old enough to remember when even the lefties favored Bush II for a hot 20 minutes.
Sebastian said...
IOW, Ukraine has to become a neutral buffer state, with some territorial concessions favoring Russian minorities.
No, it doesn't
This should have been on the table and negotiable from Ukraine's point of view for some time
No, it shouldn't
Yes, it leaves Ukraine vulnerable (though more ethnically unified), but the alternative is worse: Russia will not accept a big NATO country on its border, and trying to force the issue brings more destruction.
Russia doesn't get a fucking choice.
See Sudatenland comments above. Putin will conquer until he's stopped. He's already said that, you've just shoved your head up your ass so you don't have to listen.
The safest situation for the world is this: Russia completely bordered to the West by NATO, and knowing that any attempt to go West will get it into a war it can not win.
Anything else is an invitation to Russia attack. As can be seen by the current invasion of Ukraine.
Why would Putin invade New York? It's full of useful idiots doing his work for him.
"Blogger Inga said...
Where were the anti Putin sentiments when Trump was praising Putin and was Putin’s good friend? The change in tone by commenters here regarding Putin is astounding. Hmmm, what changed your minds?"
The actual military invasion of a neighboring state. You may have heard about it.
"There are parts of New York I wouldn't advise Putin to try invading."
Rick Blaine lives on!
Inga said...
Where were the anti Putin sentiments when Trump was praising Putin and was Putin’s good friend?
Will Rogers: Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggie" until you can find a rock.
Trump: "Putin's a great guy", while blocking his every move, and creating increasing US oil production, which cuts Putin's budget and power
Obama / Biden* / all the other Dems: "Putin's a bad man" while cutting US oil production, making Putin richer and more powerful
If you're a complete f'ing moron, you worry about what the US President says, rather than what he does.
If you're not, you look at actions, and results. And you note that America was more powerful, and Putin less powerful, when Trump was President.
Of course, if you're a political hack and lying sack of shit, then you care nothing about what people say, or do. You just care about advancing the Party.
That would be Inga and Howard
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