"Not even that brevity satisfies Pope Francis, who recently advised clergy members to keep their sermons short: 'A homily, generally, should not go beyond ten minutes, because after eight minutes you lose people’s attention.'... By contrast, Pew found that the sermons at historically Black churches were the longest, at more than three times that length, with a median of fifty-four minutes. These sermons had only a few hundred more words than those from within the evangelical tradition, a detail that suggests oratorical style or musical interludes might be contributing to their length. The religion scholar Albert J. Raboteau wrote about this patient style of preaching, sometimes known as the 'black folk sermon' or 'old-time country preaching,' tracing its origins back to the eighteenth century in rural, Southern prayer meetings and revivals.... Vocabulary analysis by Pew revealed how common some language is across these four major Christian traditions—words like 'know' and 'God' appeared most often, not surprisingly—but also how distinctive certain words are within each of those traditions. Evangelicals referred most often to 'eternal Hell,' 'salvation,' 'sin,' 'Heaven,' and 'the Bible'; mainline Protestants relied more on the words 'poor,' 'house,' 'Gospel,' and 'disciple'; historically Black Protestants were most likely to hear 'hallelujah,' 'neighbor,' and 'praise.'... The appearance of certain words is hardly a sophisticated metric of anything, including sermons.... And even if Pew were able to parse the language of sermons in ways that shed more light on the views of preachers, it would not be able to illuminate the most fundamental question of preaching—when, whether, and why a sermon moves a congregant to new or deeper beliefs."
From "What American Christians Hear at Church/Drawing on newly ubiquitous online services, Pew has tried to catalogue the subject matter of contemporary sermons," by Casey Cep (The New Yorker).
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Sermons are but a tiny slice of "what Americans hear at church," and I'd bet that online sermons are a tiny slice of that tiny sample of activity. However Pew would be the right name for an organization that surveys "what Americans hear at church."
If you can't hold an audience's attention for fifteen minutes then you're a piss-poor speaker. There's a reason that rhetoric was considered one of the foundations of a classical education. And this doesn't get into the issue of priests tryin to give a homily when they can barely speak English, or speak with such a thick accent as to make it undecipherable.
The Pope is right about that; ten minutes max. I told that to my former parish priest and he blew me off. Not Jesuit educated.
Reminds me of the PG Wodehouse story "The Great Sermon Handicap", where Bertie Wooster and his mates bet on which prelate in the area would deliver the longest sermon on a particular Sunday.
The data was collected by Pew???
I'm having a hard time taking this seriously.
I used to go to a church which had a baseline time for a sermon of 45min, with regular occurrances of 75min sermons. These sermons were constant oratory without fluff, pause, interuption or repetition.
People do not lack attention for what they like and know.
Fundamentally, we like what we know.
Growing up and listening to Fr Pfab or Fr Gallagher drone for even 10 minutes was like a foretaste of purgatory.
Now, listening to my pastor for an hour and ten minutes is endlessly fascinating and engaging.
There are a lot of confounding variables to the equation, and it's really unclear what Pew is asking. Or maybe they're just reporting. You decide.
The Three B's.
B brief, b funny, b gone. Not sure the 'funny' part fits, but interesting is probably within the pale.
I've never delivered a sermon, but I've spoken on historical topics in many a church, and always to great applause. I guess applause is out too, but still . . .
14 minutes is at the extreme high end for Catholic masses in my 25 year experience (almost exclusively in the Northeast). 30-45 minute sermons were a shock to my system when we went non-denominational.
Now I wonder what the point is in having a sermon if you have to introduce, discuss, and wrap up in about ten minutes. It's like skipping a stone on a lake - pretty nice while it's skimming the surface, but inevitably sinking to the bottom, never to be thought of again.
When I was an altar boy many moons ago, our parish had Mass scheduled every hour and 15 minutes: 6:30. 7:45, 10:00, 11:15 and 12:30. They were only scheduled that far apart because the parking lot had to empty so it could fill up again.
Sermons were quick and to the point, especially from the pastor, who often talked about money and the need for it.
I liked the 6:30 gig best because you got it over with and had the rest of the day free.
I did learn to use the word "edify" or "edified" from the pastor's sermons. He used it a lot.
I've been to a lot more services in black churches than you would think an aging Lutheran would and my observation as to why sermons in black churches take longer is that there is a lot of pauses so that the congregation can respond. Its expected for the preacher to call for hallelujahs and amens, which the congregation provides. That's not a stereotype, a preacher in a black church that didn't do that would last about one service before the congregation started looking for a new one.
In school I learned 1 minute per age up to 22 minutes. Most of my sermons go around 20 minutes and only once in all my years of preaching have I ever been told I've gone too short.
From the article: "when surveyed by Gallup, a full seventy-five per cent of respondents indicated that, of all the offerings from their places of worship, they cared most about sermons, preferring those which taught scripture and were relevant to their lives."
Well, most Protestant churches don't do Communion every week. In order to keep services to an hour or so, Catholic (and Episcopal/Anglican) church sermons/homilies have to be kept short.
Many churches use tradition-bound fixed phrases. These are repeated, week after week after week. Every group attends for social support, solidarity, and companionship. Words? Music? Whatever!
I've not clicked through, but wonder if this breaks out data for the recent emergence of mega churches. The buildings are massive, they are typically located next to major highways, and they have developed a form of "Christian Rock & Roll" all their own. Electric guitars, contemporary music. These services wouldn't have occurred during the lockdowns, and wouldn't be the same thing if delivered online.
A wise Catholic priest once remarked re homilies:
"The first 5 minutes comes from The Holy Spirit; the second 5 minutes comes from yourself; and everything after that comes from The Evil One.
I agree that 15 minutes should work fine with a decent speaker, but Catholic priests are trained far better in theology than they are in homiletics. Besides, any good lawyer can tell you that there is power in brevity and it is underrated.
This reminded me of an excruciating experience. Fall of 1994. We'd rented a house for a few weeks of vacation in Martha's Vineyard. The Jewish High Holy Days fell during that period, so we went to some hall in Edgartown where services were being held.
On arrival we were searched thoroughly--unusual in those days. Turns out it was because Bill and Hillary were attending (we'd seen them on the island riding bikes and browsing in a bookstore), probably the first time a president had attended Jewish high holiday services.
And definitely the last. The young rabbi went on and on and on and on -- longer than Bill had at the '88 DNC. He probably wondered whether this was payback. Poor guy. He looked so bored and uncomfortable trying to stay awake; Hillary, too.
My wife recognized the young rabbi as the student rabbi who, a decade earlier, used to come every two weeks to her small Arkansas town to lead Shabbat services for the small congregation. He must've thought he'd hit the jackpot, getting to yak endlessly in front of potus and flotus.
The only time I ever felt sorry for the Clintons.
To paraphrase Gallup, “stick to the text and be relevant.”
The shorter sermons make sense for services that are dense with liturgy. You may also hear one, two, or three readings from Scripture; another reading from one of the gospels; plus hymns, offerings, and all the other ingredients. A lot goes on, for whatever it is worth. The sermon is supposed to tie it together or at least relate to one of the readings.
But the longer sermons are the best. I loved the sermons at New Covenant Church in Philadelphia; I still watch and listen to the Reverend online. He preaches. I have also found a church near where we've moved where there is no liturgy, just some hymn singing, a prayer, and then a 30- to 45-minute sermon on a specific chapter of Scripture; currently Isaiah. People are thirsty for this Book in all its forms, many who don't even know it. Both of these churches spend most of their time on specific texts. They come from a deeper source.
During my youth attending the Catholic church, "collection basket" was the most commonly used phrase in sermons.
Growing up Catholic and now identifying as Baptist, I can tell you Catholic sermons are the most uninspired. A good Baptist preacher will keep you glued to the edge of your pew for a good 30 mintues or more.
I've subscribed to the NYer for, if you will, an eternity but, in my opinion, it could give two shits about religion or sermons or those poor uneducated dullards who do.
So some may know that I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, headquartered in Utah.
Twice a year we have "General Conference", two days where we have 5 2 hour long sessions full of speakers, with talks ranging from 5 to 20 or, occasionally, 25 minutes. Almost all of the speakers are not trained speakers, as they come from random walks of life for the most part.
It's quite apparent the difference 1) experience in speaking makes and 2) different styles. The men who are at the top have been doing this for a long time, some of them--the top three leaders of the Church have been giving these speeches since the early 1980's. Their talks are always engaging and well done, no matter the topic. Some years they address doctrine, sometimes they address difficult or controversial topics, sometimes it's all about promoting faith.
And the culture comparison is different. Unlike many Protestants, we don't have lots of "Amen!" and response from the audience during the talk.
Those who speak every conference are much more comfortable, while those who get maybe one shot to give a 5 minute talk are almost always extremely nervous.
I think anyone who listened to my faith's General Conference, especially from some of the more "liberal" Christian denominations, would view it as very... different, and maybe even offensive? None of the "Charismatic" Pentecostal style stuff, but plenty of absolute truth statements--not any of those "God loves you so you do you and don't worry" bit." Lots of focus on sin and repenting from it, which is not at all popular today.
As a non-Catholic who has attended Catholic Mass with my girlfriend/fiance/wife for 30-odd years now, the homily is what I want to hear. The Catholic rituals don't appeal to me, perhaps because I did not grow up with them. Communication was a once-a-month affair (which I point out to my in-laws, is because Lutherans don't sin as much as Catholics). But the sheer number of songs, and hymns, and more songs, and chants by songs, and responsorial songs, are way overdone on Sundays. More than half of the entire Mass is consumed by the musical director, who, by the way, is not very good. Daily Mass, which I attend only very infrequently, lasts 25 minutes because there is no confounded singing.
Give me some good old-time religion by way of the priest riffing on the gospel. It's pretty interesting sometimes.
"These sermons had only a few hundred more words than those from within the evangelical tradition, a detail that suggests oratorical style or musical interludes might be contributing to their length."
Indeed, a documentary on Long Sermons
My grandfather (born Methodist, married Baptist) was asked by one of his Methodist friends why the friend was regularly beating him by fifteen minutes to Sunday dinner (lunch) at the Junction Cafe, where everyone in their Iowa town came after services. The friend insinuated that the Baptist minister was long-winded. “Baptists need more preaching” was my grandfather’s reply.
Catholics, Orthodox and many mainline Protestants have Old Testament and New Testament readings before the sermon, while more evangelical preachers read from the Bible during their sermons. I'd estimate that the readings take about 10 minutes. This may account for some of the difference in the length of sermons across denominations.
In churches I am most familiar with, sermons tend to go between 40-60 minutes. I myself have preached 60+ minute sermons. It's difficult to properly exegete many biblical passages in less than 40 minutes.
as a kid south side of chicago, we had a priest. 22 -30 minutes total mass time
22 in summer. It was golf season.
The mass has ended go in peace.
Thank you God.
Sometimes Id have a "belly ache" and just couldnt make it and I would end up watching a kid show called the Magic Door. Had no idea it was a Jewish show.
Mass would be over, my "belly ache" would disappear.
Its a miracle. So yeah, Im a believer.
Sermons should be delivered by Twitter. 280 characters is enough.
A Catholic mass has a lot of other liturgical elements. Low church (non liturgical) services have music and preaching. So the preaching is all the more important. Service length can often be very similar with high church and low church
The arguable fact that churchgoers care most about sermons reflects the emphasis on church-going in our culture today. Most churches are New Testament churches emphasizing man's service to God and what we are to DO (not that He needs it!) and not God worship (primarily prayers). Old Testament (Covenant) worship was the latter and is amply documented in the first five books of the Bible (Pentateuch).
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My church had one priest who could do a decent ten min homily but there was a scandal so he's gone. All the other are terrible. The average pastor or deacon here has no clue what to say. One deacon reads his spiel in Emotional Voice.
Worst of all are the canned homilies written by someone else. When it begins "As the great theoligian Karl Barth once observed," you know our guy didn't write it.
Go for the sermon
Stay for the Music.
Singing a good hymn at church is more inspiring than a 15 minute sermon.
As a non-Catholic, I once thought of converting because I was told there were no sermons. But that was wrong. They talk, they just call it something else.
Some hundreds more words. Is that word count, total phonemes emitted? Or is that vocabulary. I've occasionally attended a non-denom ,leaning Baptist. Sermons were 45 minutes, hitting the key subject from several different angles, or just repeating the theme on a different tone. IOW, repetitive. Same vocab, more of same words.
But that's me; I enjoy the historical context and some detailed questions. As in, they were going to stone the adulteress. Okay, guys, do your thing. But, says the pastor, where's the adulterer? Did he go out the bathroom window in front of the required number of witnesses who...saw nothing and know nothing? Likely story. This was a set up to test Jesus. And He knew they'd stone her.
The lesson here is that surveillance of the churches is well underway.
Lyle Lovett has a song called Church, told from the point of view of a congregation that is hungry for lunch, but the preacher won't shut up.
The late Fr. John P. Schlegel, S.J., was a marvelous homilist. I doubt he ever went over 10 minutes; even his last homily at Marquette.
He asked one of my classmates to speak at his funeral. (I got the writing assignment and the OWH published my essay.)
My classmate Steve Bruckner said at the outset, "Fr. told me not to go over ten minutes and if I did he would come back to haunt me."
Like a good student, Steve complied; more or less.
The celebrant of the funeral mass was Fr. Joe Brown, S.J.; a Yale alum. He started out his homily by saying that "John had sent me notes about what he wanted covered which I will ignore except for one item."
It is on Youtube.
Yeah, this is why I love the Jesuits despite their faults.
Someone paid for this bullshit?
In his later years, the pastor at a church in SE Michigan got his sermons down to 3 or 4 minutes. Relatively clear and concise, drawing on the major lesson from the scripture reading(s). I think nothing was lost in the brevity. To this I attest.
"And this doesn't get into the issue of priests tryin to give a homily when they can barely speak English, or speak with such a thick accent as to make it undecipherable."
Yeah. What is that all about? Just days before the pandemic hit I attended the funeral of a wonderful aunt at a very nice Catholic church in Golden Valley, Minnesota and I pretty much had no idea what the hell he was saying.
I'm curious. I wonder what the running-time was for the Sermon on the Mount. The director's cut, not the edited version that ended up in the Gospels.
The sermon is not central to Catholic worship. It's the Mass. Comparing them to other denominations re sermons is apples to oranges.
Preachers say things, but listeners hear things too, and what a listener hears during a sermon may startle the preacher. As to length, good preaching takes time, time for a message to unfold that touches mind and heart. So longer is better. But not so long that a listener nods off and falls out the window! (Like Eutycus, during a sermon by St Paul in Acts 20)
My favorite bit of theater in the Catholic mass is the purification that follows serving the blood and body of Christ. The priest gathers up the communion plates and cups, rinses them, wipes them out with a napkin, and folds the napkin. I call that “the bachelor doing his dishes.”
Mass usually only took a maximum of an hour pre-covid.
Now, with less music, it's about 50 minutes all-in...
When they succeed building AI with these data will All come together hallelujah
Trick Q used to be is Pope Catholic.
New trick Q: how long are Pope sermons?
JaimeRoberto said...
Sermons should be delivered by Twitter. 280 characters is enough.
.....
Maybe that's what is missing from life these days... For him and us!!
Preacher Trump
The median was 37 minutes? I don't believe that.
I'm a former protestant, now Orthodox Christian. Fifteen minutes is considered a long sermon in the Orthodox Church. This is because the purpose of a Church service is worship, thanksgiving and communion. It is not a concert-and-a-lecture. If a Priest can't explain a Bible reading or the meaning of a feast day in ten minutes, he's wasting everyone's time.
>>When I was an altar boy many moons ago, our parish had Mass scheduled every hour and 15 minutes: 6:30. 7:45, 10:00, 11:15 and 12:30/I liked the 6:30 gig best because you got it over with and had the rest of the day free.
Ditto on the South Side of Chicago in the 60s (on Sundays; weekday masses were a lot fewer and shorter), although I don't think parking was that big a deal. Most people were walking from just a couple of blocks away.
--gpm
And I meant to say that communion was probably the most important (and often the longest) part of the Sunday mass.
--gpm
Fifteen minutes feels about right to me, but I guess it depends. Some have been awful, others could have lasted all day. When Latin High Mass is easily 90 min, that's pretty short. Add in prayers/confession before Mass and after, you're clocking in at two hours easy.
Professor Albert Raboteau mentioned in your post died last month. A good and decent man. A wonderful teacher.
I remember driving down the coast hi-way in South Carolina, and Georgia!....(HiWay 17??) during the 1980's.
People were still carrying water from the well, weaving reeds into baskets, and damn.......at 2PM in the afternoon, every car in the Baptist parking lot was washed, and looked like a million bucks.
The car owners??.......They were still singing in the church.
Several years ago I picked up on a seeming coincidence - sermons at Sunday mass in 3 widely separated cities were invariably short, made a salient point and had you leaving mass feeling much better for having gone.
I asked one of the priests if his order put them through some sort of public speaking course before going to a parish.
To my surprise he said that they all had taught in elementary and/or high school classrooms for at least 10 years prior to going out to preach from the pulpit.
Several years ago I picked up on a seeming coincidence - sermons at Sunday mass in 3 widely separated cities were invariably short, made a salient point and had you leaving mass feeling much better for having gone.
I asked one of the priests if his order put them through some sort of public speaking course before going to a parish.
To my surprise he said that they all had taught in elementary and/or high school classrooms for at least 10 years prior to going out to preach from the pulpit.
The procession of the same Bible readings and similar sermons on its annual cycle in the Catholic Church was and is an elegant use of repetition to promote understanding in the congregation.
In the immortal words of Saints Paul and Art: Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.
I suspect this is as true of congregants as anyone else.
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