From "Say, How Is Joe Biden’s Memory These Days?" by Jim Geraghty (National Review).
IN THE COMMENTS: Balfegor writes:
Rhodesia solution?I think Geraghty is ignoring the possibility that Milley and McKenzie are lying. And the possibility that they "recommended" it him, but in a manner calculated to avoid anyone actually doing anything about it. The Rhodesia solution, as it were. I do think it's more likely that Biden just went for the glib, impulsive, obvious lie on the spur of the moment, as has been his practice throughout his long career. But we shouldn't dismiss the possibility that other people in this little drama might also be liars.
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Biden has been a nonstop liar for decades, so how can you tell if it's dementia?
Biden is lying. He has a half-century track record of doing so.
This could actually be a feature, not a flaw!
Remember how Hilary! Clinton would always respond to any question with:
I Can't Recall
???
When Jo Biden says it; people won't dis him for it.... 'cause they'll know it's TRUE
Is it now acceptable to ask if our military leaders, having foretold the disaster that Afghanistan was about to become because the President rejected their advice, should have resigned rather than continued in their posts?
Might it not have precipitated a reconsideration of policy, on the part of whoever is operating that person-like object we call "Joe Biden"?
The second explanation — that Joe Biden has simply forgotten the advice of his top military staff — is actually much more damaging. But there’s a third option, which is that the generals are lying. After the election did they not brag about lying to Donald Trump? Perhaps lying to the President got to be habit-forming.
Biden response to Stephanopoulos included the words, “I can recall”, meaning he may have forgotten. I’m not seeing the lie. If one wants to believe that is a sign of senility, then we dogged the most forgetful woman in history in Hillary “l can’t recall” Clinton.
The question shouldn’t be about what Biden was told. It should be what was the order given by Biden.
The Fake News will ask no such question. This incident will be memory holed by Monday.
But what I want to know is why hardly any leaks from the WH? There was one, but that was it.
As soon as I saw the phrase, not "that I can recall," I knew that was his out. He didn't lie. Everybody knows Joe Biden is too mentally impaired to be president, some people just find him useful anyway.
What strikes me is that we all know Joe Biden has had a career of lying. He lies pretty much on a daily basis now. And every day we ask the same question: Is he demented or is he just lying? These are not good choices.
The other thing that is being overlooked in this nitpicking about Joe's obvious lying about the 2500 troops is the rest of the lies about Afghanistan, starting with the 1000 or so people still stranded, still in danger, still being sought (and some killed) by Taliban, still trying to get out.
Or why Bagram AF Base was left. Just left. And not used as a secure departure point? Milley? Austin? Anyone?
Or why no one seemed to react to the Taliban taking over the country in a month?
Or why no one had a plan for a secure, methodical, successful departure months prior? Say...in February?
The 2500 troop question seems the least important aspect of this entire thing.
It's hard to believe there isn't some kind of official record of who said what in these high level meetings or that the official recommendations of top advisors from the various agencies aren't submitted in writing as well as in person.
I'm actually not sure which option gives me more comfort. I'm inclined to think that Biden slid into his comfort mode of lying... for which he expected there to be no political price to pay. The media has been covering for his fibs ever since he became Obama's VP. His tells are that he lifts his eyebrows and opens his eyes extra wide...sweet little Joey looks so sincere. He's had a lifetime of practice.
"(i)s it now acceptable to ask if Biden can remember what he is told in briefings?"
Nowadays questions have to be acceptable before they can be asked. That is, asked of or by those to live and work to advance the ends of a certain party.
He's obviously lying dancing around using not that I recall, etc.
In any case I'm sure that the folks who comment frequently here are glad that he went against the advice of the deep State generals and did the right thing.
He's never been an artful liar. He usually has angrily defended his lies, and it's usually lies about his personal behavior.
Embrace the power of AND…
It brings up an interesting query about the nature of the human condition: when you are praised and promoted for habitual lying and you are consistently rewarded for criminal behavior what is your motivation for telling the truth or recognizing the rule of law?
People respond to incentives…
Biden has always been an inveterate fabulist.
Before he was president, however, it was always about his position on an issue or some anecdotal experience in his life. He could even get away with prevaricating on his senate votes, which were recorded, even his "votes" as VP on key issues like the raid on Bid Laden.
Now, as president, his executive decisions are of immediate consequence. Like the coyote run off the cliff, he's presently still hanging mid-air believing he can still pull-off the same routine.
Prepare for the drop.
I think Geraghty is ignoring the possibility that Milley and McKenzie are lying. And the possibility that they "recommended" it him, but in a manner calculated to avoid anyone actually doing anything about it. The Rhodesia solution, as it were.
I do think it's more likely that Biden just went for the glib, impulsive, obvious lie on the spur of the moment, as has been his practice throughout his long career. But we shouldn't dismiss the possibility that other people in this little drama might also be liars.
Memory or not......As Robert Gates, former defense secretary in the Obama administration, once put it, Biden has “been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades.”
A clown car goes over a cliff.
The clowns argue and point fingers on the way down.
What: Biden lied? Or can’t remember what he’s told? I am simply shocked.
Seriously, people: this is so over. Let us move on, under our President’s wise and brave leadership, to the broad sunny uplands of peace, prosperity, health and solidarity and progress for all.
/s
Leaving 2500 troops would probably violate a gentlemen's agreement with the Taliban about not attacking US troops on condition that they leave. Not that they're gentlement but that it's to both sides' advantage to stick to it.
He lied. Or he doesn't remember. Either way, this is America in 2021?
Yikes.
Were there other people in the room? Why can't we ask them?
"The simplest explanation is that Biden simply lied. But there is that possibility that Biden genuinely does not remember what his military advisors recommended a few months ago..."
If he didn't remember, the only honest answer was that he didn't remember. Fabricating an answer without realizing it is even worse than simply not remembering.
But of course, Biden has a staff. He has people who do know what advice he got. They could have corrected the statement, if it was incorrect. They did not. But it was false. So I go with lying.
Which is also the Occam's Razor of Biden Interpretation: assume he lies. Is there any major issue on which he hasn't lied?
When Althouse presents us with the NYT asking this question we’ll know the DNC-Media is genuinely concerned with an obviously mentally deficient president. But we won’t see that. The Big Tech Approved News will continue to drag the husk of the alleged president around and try and get him past the ‘24 election because Kamala has the Uniparty scared shitless. So enjoy the occasional glimpse via semiconservative media! The truth is going into a witness protection program.
The media would rather dox a teenage Trump supporter than hold Ol' Joe's feet to the fire about something.
is it now acceptable to ask if Biden can remember what he is told in briefings?"
In another month or two it will be openly discussed that he's "having difficulties focusing in meetings, or remembering decisions." They're setting up for his eventual resignation due to "health issues." My money is still on February of 2022. He'll give a SOTU in which he claims credit for saving the country from the horrors of the Trump years. A few weeks later he'll address the country from the Oval Office, announce that his health is declining, but that the country will be safe in the capable hands of Kama- hahahaha, sorry even I can't get through that one. The country will be safe in capable hands. The media will praise his "selflessness" and turn it into some sort of grand heroic narrative: the selfless public servant who strove his entire life to achieve the highest position finally reaches it after decades of struggle and loss, only to have the pressures of undoing the evil BadOrangeMan's work take a toll on his health. For the good of the country, he steps aside early.
Go with the simplest explanation first. President Biden has been a dumb, plagiarizing, corrupt liar for 50 years. He's only recently become senile. The people who voted for him knew who they were getting, and they're getting him good and hard. (Of course, they also knew who they weren't getting.)
Embrace the power of 'both'.
This is a case where the expression "whistling past the graveyard" isn't expressive enough. We're not simply putting on a brave face when we see that President Biden is a little forgetful around the edges. "Deer in the headlights" is more appropriate. The leader of the free world can no longer function in this role--and the people who should be acting to save the nation from the impending crisis and damage are frozen in their tracks, afraid to make the first move.
We're the canaries in the coal mine, waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Biden can't remember what happened five seconds ago much less conversations from months ago. Even when he was alert he still made the wrong decisions. Never under estimate Joe's ability to fuck things up.
His short-term/recent memory is very likely, at best, extremely poor. One of the reasons his handlers have him on such a short leash. So he probably isn't lying. (Right, George Costanza?)
I guess people can spend hours arguing the points, and many in the media probably will. All in all, the waste of time is like trying to pick kernels of corn out of a pile of horse manure. The only question is: "Why is this administration allowed to be so incompetent and immoral?"
The simplest, and most likely, explanation has always been “Joe lied.”
Oh, what does it matter? Those who voted for Biden weren't voting for Biden - who besides Leslie Knope of Parks and Recreation actually likes him? - but rather for:
* A "return to norms"
* A return to government insiders
* Anything but Trump, including a potted plant
* Someone they believed, because he had been Pres. Obama's tool to provide assurance of government experience (and assassination insurance), would get Europe to think we were cool again. (Some people are so sensitive about what the Old World thinks of us...)
Those who voted for him didn't care then and don't care now whether he lies like a rug or has to be reminded to brush his teeth.
As I walk in support of Alzheimer's research this weekend, I'll be thinking about this president, feeling bad for his loved ones who are watching him dissolve before their eyes. Whether or not he lied in this instance, it's very clear that he's, as they say, lost a step. A giant step.
Compare him to 91-year-old Clint Eastwood. Politics aside, which one is in full command of his facilities?
I wondered about that too. At first, I assumed he was lying. He insisted at the beginning "That's not true. That's not true." They say that whenever politicians say "frankly" or "to be honest" they are preparing to lie. After a while, I was sucked in by Biden's song and dance routine and thought maybe he really did forget what they told him.
I suspect though, that it was a kind of convenient forgetting. That's to say that he convinced himself that nobody told him that to the point where he really believes it himself. It's easy when one's brain and memory aren't working that well to begin with.
The old joke was that Washington couldn't tell a lie, and Nixon couldn't tell the truth, and [insert name of present-day politician] can't tell the difference. But not being able to tell the difference seems to be a requirement in politics today.
There was also the belief that public figures could be unmasked by a live mic, like Andy Griffith in A Face in the Crowd, but it's easier for politicians to simply believe the party line or whatever advances their career or whatever gets them out of trouble, whatever the facts may be.
Question to Gen. Milley; "Do you have routine backchannel communications with your counterparts in the UK and NATO?"
Follow-up to Yes: "Can you explain why our allies claim to be unaware of the US withdrawal?"
Follow-up to No: "Can you explain why we don't have such routine conversations with allies but based on your previous testimony, we do with adversaries like China?"
we are talking about the man who was twice forced to drop out of the race for president for plagiarism... right?
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the most obvious answer. Biden didn't lie, and he wasn't forgetful.
The man has a stutter. Give him some slack.
Believe it or not, I talked to someone just the other day who said that Biden didn't have diminished capacity, he had a stutter.
That's one hell of a stutter.
My favorite Bidenlie is that this Man of the People "used to drive an 18-wheeler, man".
They ALL lie. And they ALL are incompetent and corrupt. I cannot believe that our country has become a banana republic in less than nine months since Biden took office. What a national disgrace!
I was listening to a podcast with Kash Patel last week. He said Trump always planned to keep a small number of special forces at Bagram to fight terrorists. I imagine those guys were the incentive for the Taliban to play nice.
I'm guessing DoD wanted more than that to stay, so they told Biden 2500. But there was a middle ground that neither of these sides even discussed because Trump.
I think Balfegor is likely right or close to it.
Supervisors, esp. those high in the food chain, hear what they want to hear. Plus, they tend to communicate in various ways what they intend to do and that supporting info and recommendations are welcome but contrary recommendations, thoughts, and info are not. IIRC, Biden had been very clear what he intended to withdrawal. Presenting a strong, explicit contrary recommendation and calling out the substantial risks for catastrophe and little benefit from what the supervisor wants to do would have been a CLM (Career Limiting Move).
So direct reports tend to softly make contrary recommendations, with allusions to those risks/benefits of the supervisor's preferred course of action, while saying that the supervisor's preference could work if this happens, if that goes as expected, if what we've seen in the past continues, if, . . . but ultimately presents some level of indeterminate risk. All seasoned with weasel words so a meaty CYA salad is created that can be pointed to later if the supervisor's decision leads to a bad situation.
Kind of a soft "Bay of Pig's Syndrome." Instead of everyone agreeing on a course of action and saying 'hell, yeah, that's what we have to do' because of group think, there's disagreement among those involved but no one (or not enough) want to say 'that emperor's got no clothes' and instead each says enough to provide them a measure of CYA, ability to say "I told you this could happen", and especially "it's not my fault, I don't get to make that decision." (And of course, no one resigns - when did that become 'not a thing'?)
The result is another example where responsibility is defused or even absent if things fall apart, but if successful, there would be many claiming to be a father.
Leland @ 8:31: “Question to Gen. Milley; ‘Do you have routine backchannel communications with your counterparts in the UK and NATO?’
Follow-up to Yes: ‘Can you explain why our allies claim to be unaware of the US withdrawal?’
Follow-up to No: ‘Can you explain why we don't have such routine conversations with allies but based on your previous testimony, we do with adversaries like China?’”
Excellent pin. Of course Milley, being a gelatinous mass, would slide off the pin.
tim maguire and Howard have it right.
If the President had just answered Stephanopoulos "No, they did not," I would readily believe he did not recall.
When any politician adds "not that I can recall," I figure they know they're lying, and they're trying to give themselves an out if they should need it later.
Howard:
"In any case I'm sure that the folks who comment frequently here are glad that he went against the advice of the deep State generals and did the right thing."
I don't have a one-size-fits-all position on this. Presidents should listen carefully to generals on military matters. They should also think critically, and remember that while generals know more than presidents (except e.g. Eisenhower) about military operations, they do not know better what national policy should be.
Getting out altogether was the president's call to make. It may or may not have been a sound one. How we did it was a national disgrace. If the generals didn't see that one coming, they should resign. If they knew it was an unsound plan and didn't speak up, they should resign. If they knew it was an unsound plan, spoke up loudly, and failed to persuade, they should resign.
A second lieutenant is responsible for everything his platoon accomplishes or fails to accomplish. Somewhere between a gold bar and four stars, that standard falls by the wayside.
It's more fundamental for Biden. He's simply reached the point where he does not know what he says anytime is the truth. Biden used to have trouble with facts; now he cannot distinguish fact from fiction.
Is it now acceptable to ask if our military leaders, having foretold the disaster that Afghanistan was about to become because the President rejected their advice, should have resigned rather than continued in their posts?
Might it not have precipitated a reconsideration of policy, on the part of whoever is operating that person-like object we call "Joe Biden"
Military leaders who threaten to resign if the president rejects their advice are undermining the principle of civilian Co trol of the military. Resignations rather than carrying out orders should only occur when the orders are illegal or immoral, not because the orders are misguided or disastrous.
They can prove they are not lying if they show the memorandums advising the senile president to keep troops in Afghanistan. So can the White House if they have those memorandums.
If no proof, it's a senile president's word against a bunch of fat lazy Generals.
Personally all of them should be fired...
Biden had been a senator for about 100 years. What is the job of a senator? To bullshit, grandstand, and avoid ever taking responsibility for anything. Uncle Joe transferred his only skills to his new job.
“STEPHANOPOULOS: But your top military advisors warned against withdrawing on this timeline. They wanted you to keep about 2,500 troops.
BIDEN: No, they didn’t. It was split. Tha– that wasn’t true. That wasn’t true.”
See what Biden did there with “it was split?” We shouldn’t dismiss the possibility that nobody lied.
The leader of the free world can no longer function in this role--and the people who should be acting to save the nation from the impending crisis and damage are frozen in their tracks, afraid to make the first move.
They are not frozen. They are mostly imaginary. There is no one in this administration who should have a security clearance.
Follow-up to No: "Can you explain why we don't have such routine conversations with allies but based on your previous testimony, we do with adversaries like China?"
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Milley has explained that this set up to deescalate with China was "routine" during Trump Presidency - no details if this is so post-Trump-currently
In almost every job I have had, I am judged by my results. I am rarely judged on whether I remembered what I was told to do. These are supposed to be our mostly highly capable people, responsible for trillions in assets and millions of lives and we let the off with "I can't recall"? Forget whether this was a lie or a poor memory. Whichever it was it was a failure that should be judged as such. But we won't because we'd rather have "our" guy there regardless of the performance.
First of all, There are multiple witnesses to every conversation. Does one really think the POTUS meets with the CJCS without the WH COS and the NSA being there, along with Aides who even if not present, were briefed on what was going to be said and what did get said?
Either of the two main choices is doubly bad.
1. He's lying now and he fucked up the decision then, or
2. he doesn't remember now, but he still fucked it up then
either way, we are so screwed...
Somebody ought to check in on Dr. Bandy Xenobia Lee She's been awfully quiet lately.
Biden was lying, but there are two pieces to this process. Military wanted to keep a security force in place. Biden said no.
The military then created an exit plan that was faster than what Biden even envisioned. Read the Politico article. It clearly describes what happened and my only conclusion is that Biden made a poor decision, which was followed by an even worse decision by his military advisors once the full pullout had to happen.
Of course he’s lying. Three obvious “tells”:
1. It’s Joe Biden. He’s a liar. Always has been.
2. His lips are moving and he’s a a politician.
3. He says “no”, and then immediately backs up to “not that I recall”.
That’s the biggest tell of all. He knew it was false, knew George knew it was false, knew that the people would know it was false, so he followed up with “not that I recall”. The weaseliest of weasel words.
Well it's time to spread some of the well deserved ordure around these folks. Yes Biden is a perennial fabulist. If he met truth coming around a corner, he'd have to be introduced. But he's not the only tool here. Consider the possibility that General Milley is, as someone else said "Dishonest, dishonorable and incompetent". I can't figure out why the writer was holding back when he said that. The general has been climbing the greasy political pole in the Pentagon for a long time. He's now managed to stab two different Presidents in the back.
There's a bit more evidence for Balfegor's theory in that none of these guys resigned in protest.
Hmmm.
You have to note that Stephanopoulos' question was very, very specific. You also have to note that Biden never takes questions that aren't known in advance.
In short, this wasn't only Biden telling a lie, but telling one specifically arranged for the interview itself. Biden's handlers knew they had a problem- that Biden had received encouragement to keep troops in Afghanistan indefinitely and that he had been told what would happen if they pulled out in way. Biden had over-ruled that advice and, worse, had claimed in a public address in July that the Taliban would not quickly retake the country.
The little bit about "that I can recall" is the absolute tell that Biden was lying. He and his political advisors weren't willing to say outright that his military advisors didn't oppose the withdrawal plan, so his answer writer put in the "that I can recall" bit to hopefully get the military brass to shut up. It didn't work, but it probably doesn't matter in the long run- it will be memory holed by next week.
On merits of the plan itself: it could have been done a lot better, but the idea that the last 18 months showed what could be done with 2500 troops is ignoring the fact that the US and the Taliban had an agreement for an armastice on the understanding that the US would, in fact, leave. So, the issue isn't whether or not you could keep the puppet government in place with 2500 troops- it is how many more you would need to send back to fight the Taliban when the armastice ended because the US broke the agreement?
Anyone with using anti-racist ideas such as "white rage" to inflict policy on his subordinates is very comfortable with lies.
They are all lying including the generals. Miley has a back channel to the Chinese High Command but not to his NATO counterparts? Biden wanted out at any cost and the brass went with it. Should the brass gone with it as per Biden's orders? Yes. Biden is the president-their commander in chief. If the brass really wanted to convey the need to keep 2,500 troops in place they would have made that explicit in their reporting to their superiors and copied key members in Congress and have a polite conversation with the allied brass. They didn't so that alone is proof the brass is lying. Biden is lying on purpose or due to senility but either way he is lying.
Biden has a loooonnnggggg record of making the wrong decision whenever faced with a choice that must be made. His gut feelings are only suitable for a dog’s breakfast.
He should resign and enjoy his senescence.
The decisions about withdrawing from Afghanistan were made over a period of several months and the military advisors would have necessarily been involved in multiple discussions with the President as he set the Sept. 11 withdrawal date and then moved it to August 31.
The idea being pushed that there was a single meeting in which the need to keep a residual force in country was raised and Biden doesn't remember the details from that one episode is nonsense.
It Rhodesia with both oars In the water.
Joe Biden has always lied, to the extent that even when his lies have been completely debunked, he still drags them out for special occasions and re-uses them. He gets caught lying so much, that he is beyond the reach of embarrassment, which frees him to lie with even more promiscuity. We know from history that Joe Biden lies about easily-disproved things, and that he readily lies to advance a political cause.
So now he has dementia - I think that's been pretty conclusively shown to at least some extent in his logical capacity and verbal acuity (which was never great to begin with).
Why would he stop lying? It's his go-to solution for any answer that doesn't immediately spring to mind at the podium. It doesn't matter whether he's making it up to dissemble, or making it up because it's all brand new. It's still lying.
actually general mckenzie did lie back in june, the treehouse caught it, saying bagram airbase was not a significant element
Left Bank: "See what Biden did there with “it was split?” We shouldn’t dismiss the possibility that nobody lied."
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
You might want to grab a cloth...as you have something hanging from your chin.
LLR Chuck's lefty bookend buddy Howard: "In any case I'm sure that the folks who comment frequently here are glad that he went against the advice of the deep State generals and did the right thing."
Not even the far left democratical politicians are attempting to continue this obfuscation "gambit" (conflating the strategic decision to leave Afghanistan vs how it is achieved) that you continue to push.
But then again, they are the democratical policians and you are simply a voice-actuated lefty drone.
Quick exit question for Howard: Is antifa a "myth" this month, or very real and courageous freedom fighters properly opposing "fascists"?
Just trying to keep up with your revolving door/contradictory claims.
Rats. I was all set to praise Ann for ferreting out the meaning of "The Rhodesia Solution" and linking "Yes, Minister," but of course Balfegor him/herself provided the link.
Leland @8:31 has the perfect question, and the flummoxed responses to either answer. If we were in good communication with NATO, why was our withdrawal, in the dead of night, with no warning, such a shock to them? And if we were not in good communication with NATO, how is it that we were nonetheless in such good communication with the CCP? To the point that promises of advance warning of attacks were made to the head of the CCP military?
Biden is Clintonian and allowed such BS by our corrupt press.
Kash Patel did in fact state that there are transcripts of everything and there are at least six people in the room on such calls. Unfortunately, they would likely be Obama's people so there's that. As Yancey pointed out, All questions are prepared. In this case ABC's Clinton guy gets a possible AHA! moment, and Joe slides with an "Idunno". And Narciso points to the most advanced and capable base in the middle east referred to as insignificant. Betcha China is enjoying Bagram as much as the big guy enjoys his 10% off the top. Challenge: Compare and contrast Trump's "lies" and Biden's "Lies". I'll wait.
Kash Patel did in fact state that there are transcripts of everything and there are at least six people in the room on such calls. Unfortunately, they would likely be Obama's people so there's that. As Yancey pointed out, All questions are prepared. In this case ABC's Clinton guy gets a possible AHA! moment, and Joe slides with an "Idunno". And Narciso points to the most advanced and capable base in the middle east referred to as insignificant. Betcha China is enjoying Bagram as much as the big guy enjoys his 10% off the top. Challenge: Compare and contrast Trump's "lies" and Biden's "Lies". I'll wait.
Sorry If double post. Blogger said OOPS!
Blogger The Drill SGT said...
First of all, There are multiple witnesses to every conversation.
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VP uterus person boasted that she was last in the room.
what was Biden serotonin and endorphin level when deciding ?
All questions are prepared. In this case ABC's Clinton guy gets a possible AHA! moment, and Joe slides with an "Idunno".
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Clinton guy is Rhodes scholar?
supposed to be high IQ!
I would have asked cruelly neutral double edge question to Biden :
- Sir do you still have confidence in Pentagon leadership?
and let the road bumps build for the Bus of State
Howard said...
In any case I'm sure that the folks who comment frequently here are glad that he went against the advice of the deep State generals and did the right thing.
Biden did the right thing but in just the about the wrongest way possible. Even an educated fool should be able to figure that out.
Miley has a back channel to the Chinese High Command but not to his NATO counterparts?
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NATO has no spies watching Pentagon?
Confidence in USA leadership good intentions or
US deemed incompetent irrelevant immaterial [perry mason]
Resignations rather than carrying out orders should only occur when the orders are illegal or immoral, not because the orders are misguided or disastrous.
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in what Venn universe do you get null set for their intersection
The Rhodesia solution may not just be a mode of expression, but also a mode of perception.
It isn't a lie if you believe it, Jerry.
Oh, geez, I can't get into the serious discussion and can only get off on the Yes, Minister (which I love) and Yes, Prime Minister (which I also love and saw first) references. Bernard was probably my favorite character. Nigel Hawthorne was fantastic. Also very good in the Madness of (my namesake) King George.
--gpm
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