I'd appreciate it if all readers would participate in this poll, whether you comment regularly, occasionally, or not at all.
৪ এপ্রিল, ২০২১
I'm considering changing the approach to comments on this blog.
এতে সদস্যতা:
মন্তব্যগুলি পোস্ট করুন (Atom)
পোস্টগুলি
৬৪৭টি মন্তব্য:
647 এর 1 – থেকে 200 আরও নতুন» সবচেয়ে নতুন»I come here BECAUSE of the comments. Don't change!!!
There are a couple of commenters I could live without, but some probably feel the same about me.
Also, I don’t come for the comments.
Most comments do not add anything to this blog, but a few commenters are worth reading. In I don't think Ann should have to moderate anything, I'd rather she focus on writing and pushing sunrise photos.
Don't mess with success. If I can use a cliche'. It's a good blog. There are a small few who abuse it. My guess is that there are other conservative minded blogs where they have been shown the door as well. The left likes to destroy things for reasons they don't even know.
I’m inclined to no change, but I see the problem, so I voted all through moderation. I don’t expect email to work.
It would be cool if people we depersonalize their comments and focus on the subject rather than judging others. The latter results in excess comments that provide little value. I tend to not read comment sections once they broach 100 comments.
I voted for moderation lite- letters to the editor are an echo chamber- a cherry picked editorial that reflects the blog creator. What appeals to me is the allowance of tangents, meandering off topic, snarky snark and sometimes intense disagreement that attracts mostly thoughtful commentary.
I suppose it depends on why the change is being considered. Anyone who spends time here knows who is trying to destroy the blog in order to subvert conservative viewpoints. Keeping them off isn't viewpoint discrimination despite what they tell us.
If it's become to burdensome to maintain, then all good things must come to an end.
I'll reiterate a sentiment I've posted before- except for a couple auto forums this is the only place where I'm motivated to contribute, and the commentariat is the reason why...
...or you can just wait until Google comes for you.
I voted keep it the way it is. I don't know what you have to go through with respect to the trouble makers, but from my perspective as a reader and commenter, the way it is now works. Sure it would be nice if the trolls didn't exist, but they can be scrolled past. Moderation, which we have experienced several times now, doesn't work; it kills the flow. The cure is worse than the disease.
I do not know what you want to accomplish by changing the way comments work on the blog, nor what motivates you to consider a change at this time. The current approach seems to work well, but I have no idea how much of a burden it is on you and Meade.
I voted for moderation with nearly everything published. That's what I thought was going on already. I read the comments that interest me and that are an honest attempt at addressing a point of view or issue that is the subject of the post. The thing I am in favor of is the elimination of the trolls. My approach is to roll right on past - there are certain commenters that I've come to know, from their posts, as trolls - so it is not a burden to do. And I guess that moderating them out must be difficult and time consuming for you and Meade.
My vote aside, this all works about as well as it can. The ratio of honest, good faith commenters to trolls is very high.
comments are why i read this blog.
Oh!
And Happy Easter. Meade and Ann.
Agree with Wendybar. I come primarily for the comments. I’ll stop reading if there are none.
"I come here BECAUSE of the comments. Don't change!!!"
What is it that you are getting from the comments? I have a vision for this blog, and if the commenters are doing something inconsistent with what I mean it to be, then what is my motivation to provide this place for you?
Comments are an important part of the blog.
"What is it that you are getting from the comments?"
Personally, I learn a lot.
"Most comments do not add anything to this blog, but a few commenters are worth reading. In I don't think Ann should have to moderate anything, I'd rather she focus on writing and pushing sunrise photos."
I am forced to moderate because of spam and very destructive trolls. But aside from that, I am unhappy with commenters who jump right in and shit on the post and let it be known that they think I ought to have opened a discussion on the latest killing in the news. I do want to focus on what I do, but some things about comments and moderation break up the rhythm and the mood of my time, and I only have so much time. Everything I have to do takes away from something else I could do. I read and write and then I have to go in and moderate comments. Or I write and then I look to see what's happening in the comments and people are just shitting on the post. Why should that be my life?
I don't think the comments are very good but I don't think Ann should have to spend time "moderating" them either. I come here for Ann, not 100 comments on why liberals are the worst.
Option #2 is terrible. The tactic of the left is to censor, censor, censor. We need as much open commenting as possible even if some ugly stuff is published.
Something else for AA might include using a disqus-like system where readers act somewhat like editors by means of their like or dislike a comment, including the ability to respond to another person's comment.
As it is now, combing through all the AA comments is something I simply do not and will not do, esp. after the number of comments hit 30 or more comments.
As for AA to moderate all comments: that too is unrealistic for her. What's more, readers' time is limited and they want to have their comment published quickly to see if it will prompt further discussion.
"I do not know what you want to accomplish by changing the way comments work on the blog, nor what motivates you to consider a change at this time. The current approach seems to work well, but I have no idea how much of a burden it is on you and Meade."
The burden is entirely on me.
I like hearing different opinions, and this blog, for the most part has intelligent conversations that you don't hear on other blogs comments, because a lot of them are biased either way. I WANT to hear other opinions, just not the hate and division that the Main Stream Media itself spews. There are a few trolls here, but for the most part, everybody adds their own views and it makes you look at things differently than you did before.
If the comment section has become inconsistent with what you want the blog to be then you don't need to be asking us. It's your sandbox...
...just don't expect everyone to conform to your desires. Once you put the product out there it's up to us on the receiving end...
There are some commenters I just skip.
Sometimes I wish other commenters would just not engage with the trolls.
Other than that, I think the current comment system, or what I can see off the current comment system, is fine; I hope Althouse does not have to exert too much effort behind the scenes to maintain this system.
Ann, please keep the comments as is, for I do so enjoy the back and forth of my fellow commentators.
I don't like filters and I don't like curated bullshit. That is the problem with our country right now. People do not talk to each other.
There are fewer and fewer places where ideas can meet.
But it is Althouse blog. That means Ann is eventually going to get what she wants. Ann does not like having her her world or her ideas challenged. She wants to think she does and she dabbles here and there. But she wants to think Ben Winkler is a good little boy. She wants to fit in with the cool kids.
My bet is Ann is getting push back on subtle and non-subtle ways. The powers that be want the deplorables shut up and Ann sympathizes.
But the cognitive dissonance that would create for her is too much. She wouldn't be able to look at herself in the mirror.
What is it that you are getting from the comments?
Many of the commenters here are very smart people whose views I otherwise would not be exposed to. Some, like Laslo, are just hilarious, but almost all of them are interesting. I disagree with what seem to be the majority views on immigration, but at least I understand them much more than I used to.
I don't know what your vision for the blog is, but the way I see it is that your posts serve as conversation starters. Most of us aren't asking you to do our thinking for us, which is why the people demanding to know how you voted are so annoying. Like anyone else, you're entitled to your opinions. You don't have to justify them unless you're trying to persuade.
I mostly agree with stevew at 7:32
From a visitor's perspective - scrolling is easy - sometimes something catches the eye. When time is limited, I scroll through the comments quickly to look for comments/replies from Ann.
It looks like the doll-house model of a blog is being considered.
@ Althouse - This blog has been a daily read for me for years. I think of you as a smart friend who has interesting ideas and takes the trouble to articulate them well enough to try to be precisely understood. I know one day this will be over and I will be sorry. I know that writing well takes great effort. I don’t know how much effort policing the comments might be. Like any regular, I can tell when the locusts descend. And I know that like Yahweh in his worse moments you are tempted to sweep us all away in a great flood. I will miss a lot of the commenters I have gotten to know over the years. I wonder if a separate site for Althouse commenters is an option. Blog away here. We comment there. If you feel like reading the comments, read them, if not, don’t.
My mistake, I thought he assisted with moderation.
If you value comments so long as they are relevant and advance the discussion and want to eliminate spam, trolls, and bad faith comments I don't see a way to lessen the burden of comment moderation. Email might work, you can block spammers and the other objectionable commenters but then reading them and posting the good ones might be more time consuming.
I obviously don't know what you are going through, and I deeply appreciate this blog.
But, when there is moderation and something big is happening, the timing and sense of community disappears. A Biden speech, a cafe, a basketball game....it could be anything. If things have to go through moderation the fun of the conversation goes away. But only you know if you really want there to be a conversation *among* the commenters.
I can't really answer the question, because I don't know how much time Althouse and Meade currently spend on moderation and keeping out trolls and spam.
"What is it that you are getting from the comments? I have a vision for this blog, and if the commenters are doing something inconsistent with what I mean it to be, then what is my motivation to provide this place for you?"
Even after losing some good old-timers, I'm getting the best mix of right-leaning commentary on the Internet and mostly interesting observations on the passing scene. I am also getting the opportunity to join the community of commenters, and while I occasionally take issue with Althouse herself, I don't think I have ever abused the privilege. In fact, those occasional points of tension (not just involving me, of course) are themselves unique on the Intertubes.
I understand that you have a vision, but I would suggest that you have created something beyond your vision, a piece of joint performance art rather than a writing project, something that derives its value in part from a messy confluence of streams of consciousness that you do not control, as long as you do not control it.
"I am unhappy with commenters who jump right in and shit on the post and let it be known that they think I ought to have opened a discussion on the latest killing in the news."
I totally get that it's annoying, and again I don't know how much time you currently spend filtering out the worst cases, but I wouldn't worry about it so much, particularly demands to open up a discussion of something else. We ignore it, you ignore it, problem mostly solved.
Thanks Ann for all the effort making this space!
I've read the blog on and off for many years - comment just once and a while. I like exposing myself to different opinions to learn and to test my own judgements. Your blog helps me do that.
I think the comments are the biggest driver - your posts almost never have any substantive opinion in them. You have little hints at times but almost never say anything.
If you get rid of comments you would need to spend a lot more time on clear substance in your posts - setting the table for discussion is much different from presenting a 5 course meal!
My vote was to keep it as it is.
"What is it that you are getting from the comments?"
Many comments provide insights or information I didn't know before. Even some of the trolls provide, on occasion, useful information. There are man times I come away from the comments section having learned something. The trick is wading through the dross to find the value, a valuable life skill! I can easily scroll past and ignore the childish back-and-forth name calling that sometimes breaks out, and I've learned to ignore some of the trolls just as I ignore my socialist nephew when he tries to convince me that it is unfair that I make more money than he does.
"I am unhappy with commenters who jump right in and shit on the post and let it be known that they think I ought to have opened a discussion on the latest killing in the news."
It's your blog and hopefully it brings you joy. There are always those who will demand you use your time to meet their needs. Sometimes it is a neighbor who wants me to paint my fence a certain color, sometimes it is a blog commenter who wants you to play to their interests. Ignore them. Life is too short to worry about people like that.
In any event Happy Easter and I enjoy the blogs, comments and all!
Comments helped drive the blog. Like them or not they created a context of engagement to riff on. The posts are the chords and melody, the comments are the harmony and improvisation. Creates a unique song.
Even Instapundit was convinced!
But after so long of doing this, Althouse, do what would bring you joy. Comments are a admin hassle and maybe that's not what you want anymore.
I think no comments would change the blog and how you think through it.
Maybe you're just tired of the same small group arguing with each other, so shut them down a year and start a different kind of community after Easter 2022
I, too, come for the comments. I ‘save’ particularly pithy comments on my phone and/or email. I’ll post a few below, as evidence.
Note: I first came here in the before-times, when Ann ‘had’ legal opinions on matters of national concern: since retiring, Ann has changed course and become more outwardly eclectic in her posting choices.
Hence, I come for the comments.
Please to know two things: I give credit to the quoted, and, each one is a different author, I.e., I come for the comments, plural.
Please don’t lose the wisdom and insight in this community.
Ethics is religion’s relativistic cousin. Law is ethics’s politically congruent mistress. - n.n.
You don’t need god to have a religion, just sin and the devil. The left has both in spades. - Mr Wibble
...the Woke are so tolerant that they won’t tolerate another person’s tolerance for that which they disapprove of. - Lucien
Using bad words is a victimless crime (enough with the lies, nobody, literally nobody, is hurt by words—that would be magic and we don’t believe in magic). - tim maguire
Systemic Racism is phlogiston, the cause of fire. It has to exist because there are fires. So it’s what prevents blacks from doing as well as whites, and obviously exists because they don’t. - rhhardin
The path to losing all your principles begins with, “It’s different this time.” - Kevin
We don’t have Constitutional rights anymore. We only have terms and conditions. - Rick.T.
Not sure what you mean by 'shit on the post'. If it's someone who wants a post about some other topic that's certainly inconsistent with the rules of the comment section.
If you don't like the obligation of moderation, there's no reason to be asking for our input. I expect you know what to do...
hiawatha biscayne said...
comments are why i read this blog.
Ann Althouse said...
"I come here BECAUSE of the comments. Don't change!!!"
What is it that you are getting from the comments? I have a vision for this blog, and if the commenters are doing something inconsistent with what I mean it to be, then what is my motivation to provide this place for you?
This is a good discussion.
It comes down to centralized vs. decentralized paradigms again.
Artists are open to new things and change. They put stuff up and let it blossom. They are thrilled with new directions and unexpected twists.
Lawyers are closed thinkers. They do not appreciate change and they want things to go down directed paths. And criticism? Oh boy is that bad.
Ann, please be comfortable enough with yourself and what you have accomplished that you can deal with a little criticism. Nobody is going to think less of you because of some blog troll.
But I think we all know it isn't the blog trolls.
Ann is providing a place where the deplorables currently have a voice. And that cannot be allowed.
Many people come here because they want to hear deplorable voices in their own words.
Ann moderated the blog for a while and went back to open moderation. She did not want to go back to open moderation. I think we all know that readership plummeted.
If not Ann go ahead and close the comments and curate your blog. Bring the hammer of conformity down on this community.
It will do what all communities do under the hammer of conformity.
I voted keep it the way it is..
However, Light Moderation... such as removing and banning the aggressive trolls who use violent or unacceptable language or who maliciously clog up the comment stream with multiple repetitious and off topic comments or who are personally attacking others... could be in order IMHO.
Removing people for viewpoint reasons is censorship. I don't like censorship of viewpoints. Opposing viewpoint and opposing ideas can be a good thing as it may open up minds...or better yet...expose the writer more than they think.
It is too bad that there isn't a voting system, whereby the comment down-voted to minus-XX would just automatically be deleted. THEN the blog hosts would not have to do the work...WE would do it for you.
Althouse has to be wise enough to know this free speech comments section is part of the attraction and traffic of this blog. It’s part of the product. More often than not, more interesting that the NYTs, Wash Post articles and blog analysis by the blog author. You do pick good topics. I’m sure there is way more traffic than their are commenters, and many come to read Thunderdome.
Kill the comments, and traffic will decrease guaranteed. It’s your blog, but to your credit, you’ve almost let the comments section become public domain. Over regulate the comments, traffic will go down guaranteed.
Question is why the poll? Did one of the liberal trolls get Google to start monitoring comment content? There must be some type of threat.
You've been toying with this for quite some time, so I suggest you just do whatever it is you most want to do and see how that feels to you. You don't need our permission.
Ann, is a "trusted commenter" model workable?
@Ann Althouse:
Or I write and then I look to see what's happening in the comments and people are just shitting on the post. Why should that be my life?
That's the difference between a reader and a fan. Readers want to be interested, fans want to be pleased. The entire reason to read the blog is because it's your point-of-view. And one of the things that makes your point-of-view valuable is an almost instinctual resistance to being herded, to get in line, to jump on board, to push an agenda.
I'll never understand people who demand to be told what they want to hear.
No opinion.
Sometimes comments are worthwhile. Sometimes not.
Do as you please, prof. I can’t imagine why you want to spend your retirement refereeing comments. I wouldn’t do it for any amount of money or notoriety.
Either keep it the way it is or migrate to a platform that segregates replies to specific comments in separate subthreads. That way those addicted to back and forth can still have at it without dominating the thread itself. We could more easily ignore or read the back and forth at our option. We'd also find out who the performers are that think they need/deserve a full audience for their debates.
I suppose the question is, to AA, “what are you getting out of the comments?”
How much moderation can you, Althouse, live with? The more thought you put into moderation, the more of a burden it becomes. The temptation becomes great to simplify the process, which will tend to result in either low-effort minimal moderation, or low-effort Crushing of Independent Thought.
How about different standards for different posts? Think of the posts as garden plots. Some you weed intensively, some you let the weeds run. Cafe posts to let people bitch and bicker all night. Posts that you really want to try to encourage discussion on, prune severely. Compare the results. Which do you like better?
Personally, I find that as time goes on I block more and more commenters. Commenters, as well as authors, tend to run out of things to say. The less reflective of them then commence saying the same thing over and over and over.
I suspect parts of our commenting must be very tedious for you, so you would like to cut out some of it. But with all of the time this blog already takes from your (and Meade's) life, I cannot imagine you would want to keep doing this much longer if you had to moderate every comment, or worse- read through every commenter's emails. Perhaps your thinking is that most will not bother to email. That may be true.
Still- my selfish opinion is what can I do to keep Althouse blogging everyday as part of my daily routine? If it gets tiresome and/or tedious for you, you're out. Life is too short to be tied to a blog if you hate doing it. So we have two choices. Send you money every week to keep you incentivized. Or, suggest you leave it as is, let the chips fall where they may. Or both. That would be the easiest way to keep you at it. And if a commenter bothers you, cut him or her off. We're all adults here. We are willing and able to pay for our actions.
Still, a little monetary persuasion can't hurt. Do you accept Bitcoin?
I don’t like moderation at all, because it destroys the timeliness of the responses. You no longer have a real conversation, but are dependent on Ann’s and Meade’s schedules. You say something and it may be six hours before you get a response. Making it worse for me is that over time, the bulk of my commenting is late late at night when Ann and Meade are asleep. I have done this two sleep thing for better than half a lifetime now and find sympathetic souls here.
My view is that a little moderation goes a long way. Light moderation for a month or two, then let the comments run wide open for awhile. Don’t announce when you are turning off moderation - like you did last time you moderated. The in terrorem effect of moderation lingers for a surprisingly long time, after it is turned off.
I have banned myself a couple of times from the comments for periods of time for what I imagine are likely violations of the spirit you intend for this blog, but still then I read every post while not reading the comments so as to avoid being drawn in. I try not to comment unless I have a thought behind my comment, and I try to be amusing, but I am guilty of stretching the scope of the topic at hand more often than is probably proper to your aims for the blog. I am also guilty of engaging trolls more than I should.
I said a couple of weeks ago that I have a tendency to use this blog as a form of journaling, as a kind of public 'reading journal,' and I will take this post of yours as a notice to hew more closely to the topic at hand and to let off topic trolling comments lay.
I obviously love the blog the way it is and I enjoy the community here, but I will only point out that Instapundit, in my personal opinion, was a better blog before he added comments and people still read it every day. Maybe you could schedule post cafés to relieve the pressure of breaking news on the other threads without having to devote personal time to it?
What is it that you are getting from the comments? I have a vision for this blog,
I like to read the post. Muse on what I think about it. What I feel about the subject. Think about other things that in my past experience or readings are related. Research if necessary. Then if I am moved to do so....discuss the topic.
The comments from others give me other people's perspectives on the topic (if they are trying to be sincere and not trolling off topic or rude). I like the different perspectives. WHO likes an echo chamber? Not me.
Different perspectives are interesting and sometimes can change mine. I also hope that MY view points, thoughts, feelings can do the same for others.
Sometimes the comments are amusing. Sometimes they are annoying, scroll past those. Sometimes they are touching when someone has given up something personal in the comment. Often they are educational.
In the best of all possible coding worlds, and only when needed:
1.) pre-clear select (member) commenters, subject to moderation (deletion).
2.) subject non-member commenters who haven't been pre-cleared to moderation.
Beside minimizing the moderation burden, the point is to also minimize the comment-and-response continuity problem that will arise with any kind of delayed moderation.
A remaining question is how best to sequence those delayed, non pre-approved comments in the thread.
There seems to be a pretty stable (I use that term loosely, myself included) "stable" of Althouse commenters, but you wouldn't want to delay the responsive contributions of people who chime in occasionally with some important points.
That's why I'd turn on the moderation delay at those times "only when needed."
Trolls are a problem for you and Meade. It's a shame, but Blogger doesn't do much to help on that score. I don't comment that much, but I visit every day and the comments are a big factor.
I do particularly understand your frustration with the "I see you're avoiding writing about X" comments. I have no right to demand you blog about any topic other than what you choose to blog about. Such commenters are trolls and deserve whatever treatment you give them.
Althouse is a liberal feminist living in communist Madison, Wi, but is a free speech advocate. The makes her an interesting enigma. There are a lot of well informed, highly educated, well researched, and funny commenters here. A consistent cast of characters. Some with more knowledge about the topic that the journalist who wrote the linked article, and many more knowledgeable that the blog author. Although Althouse NEVER admits she is wrong, she does have the guts to be challenged.
The commenters, some with traceable pseudonyms, others hidden, have more freedom to speak than Althouse. Take the election voting fraud for example. Althouse couldn’t say she knew there was fraud. She’d get cancelled by Google and the Madison woke. But she could let her commenters speak the truth. I kind of thought it was part of her modus operandi after the election.
Some of the commenters really are rude and condescending, like telling Althouse what she shouldn't read, or that the SNL clip wasn't funny and SNL hasn't been funny since the Coneheads, or the music video sucked, or "I nevah read Twitter blah blah" etc.
It's like criticizing the meal when someone else is paying.
"If the comment section has become inconsistent with what you want the blog to be then you don't need to be asking us. It's your sandbox... ...just don't expect everyone to conform to your desires. Once you put the product out there it's up to us on the receiving end..."
Right. It is all on me. If there's something I would like but I can't handle it, then it's something I can't have. No one else can bring me what I want. I have to admit it is unachievable.
A good example of the road NOT to take is Patterico’s Pontifications.
Whose audience has become much more selective.
I ran across the blog about six years ago, stumbling across it while looking for information about a hot topic. The most interesting information came in the comments, both argument and links. Now I read maybe half the blog posts, post very brief comments on maybe half of those. I scroll through much of the long threads - the repetitive people are usually recognizable even the name is seen.
I chose Other in the poll. I realize it's been rejected, but feel compelled to urge the blogger to find a more modern platform where people who misbehave can be banned. Deletion of individual comments is a very small stick.
Perhaps, if you had some clear guidelines about what sorts of comments would be consistent with your vision for the blog, and you articulated some guidelines about what sorts of comments would be permitted, you could improve the quality and eliminate most of the problematic comments quite effectively.
You are an exceptionally clear writer, with a superior legal mind; I expect that those qualities could be employed in the service of that goal quite quickly.
At the same time, it hardly requires such a statement from you to know what it is you like and will accept:
1. Stick to the subject matter of the blog post, paying particular attention to what Althouse’s angle on the story is. Commenters need not agree with Althouse, but they must honor the basic subject matter.
2. Be interesting. Try to offer something that either Althouse or the other readers don’t already know.
3. Don’t attack other readers with your comment. In fact, it should be the rare comment that addresses another commenter at all. I would estimate that 99% of problematic comments stem from commenters addressing one another. Just don’t do it. In the extremely rare circumstance that to u see something that is so grossly in error that it would be harmful to the blog to leave uncorrected, quote the portion and point out the error. Do it without any personal references. Again; sticking to the spirit of the subject of the blog post without personal references.
And some commenters flatter themselves that they Know Things and the rest of us should just read their lectures and shut up...that is, they're fucking bores.
My bet is Ann is getting push back on subtle and non-subtle ways. The powers that be want the deplorables shut up
That is an interesting comment.
Some of us are more interested in the comments than on blog subjects from they NYT and the WaPo, as if these sources had any credibility.
"1.) pre-clear select (member) commenters, subject to moderation (deletion)."
Blogger does not offer this option.
"There seems to be a pretty stable (I use that term loosely) "stable" of Althouse commenters, but you wouldn't want to delay the responsive contributions of people who chime in occasionally with some important points. That's why I'd only invoke the moderation delay "when needed.""
I think comments are best when they flow in real time, which is why I have them the way they are now, but I cannot keep up with the after-the-fact moderation. People are just not respectful enough of my time, and it's just plain depressing.
I thought this was how it was
Comments must go through moderation, but nearly everything is published.
My criteria for a good comment are: is the comment insightful / informative / entertaining? If not, it's probably not a good comment, and not worth reading, or hosting.
I have been guilty of not-good comments in my time, which is one of the reasons I comment less. I sometimes look back over comments I have written, and say to myself, "Paco, was that comment really necessary?" And too often, the answer is "No, it was not." If I'm not going to take the effort to write a good comment, I shouldn't waste the time to write a bad one.
Maybe you could embed this cartoon where commenters can see it:
Honey, I can't come to bed. Somebody on the Internet is wrong.
The tough choice is between "leave it the way it is" versus moderation with Althouse selecting the most readable for publication.
I would be very interested to see just the most readable ones. When I come along late to a post and see over about 60-70 comments, I scan over them far too quickly to notice the most readable ones, so I miss them.
But at the same time I'd hate to lose the free-flowing nature of all the many comments. When there are up to 50 or so comments, I like to read, see and observe the patchwork quality of them. The fact that many of them are not that interesting or on point IS interesting in itself. I wouldn't want to lose that reminder of how people's minds work.
I read all of your posts but not all of the comments. I didn't think you read all the comments. I can see how that would be a chore.....I like things the way they are. Some of the discussions become too arcane or involve an endless exchange of petty insults, but many commenters here are informative or witty. Some of the insults are pretty good. There's a spontaneity and Punch and Judy show quality to the exchanges.
I came to this blog for Althouse, but the comments add to Ann’s brilliance; at least most of the time.
The beauty of this blog is that it is like a jazz jam session or a basketball game. Ann is the best player and we feed off of her. Think about how Gonzaga played last night. Collectively, this is a really great American art project. It is an intellectual thrill to see it being created in real time; the ebb and flow along with the missteps.
Yes, it is difficult for Ann but aren’t all worthwhile things difficult?
"I don't know what your vision for the blog is, but the way I see it is that your posts serve as conversation starters. Most of us aren't asking you to do our thinking for us, which is why the people demanding to know how you voted are so annoying. Like anyone else, you're entitled to your opinions. You don't have to justify them unless you're trying to persuade."
I am providing conversation starters, but I am dismayed by commenters who don't pick up the cues and just burden the thread with off-point material, hack political remarks, statements about their own lack of interest, and so forth.
If you don't know what my vision for the blog is after all these years, well, why not try to understand? And if you just don't feel like understanding, because the comments section is your playground or your favorite place to shit, then why should my place remain open? I do this for the intrinsic value to me, and I only want comments if I enjoy having comments. Right now there is good and bad, but it is tipping toward bad, and I have to make some decisions. I have limited time.
The one (and only) thing I did like about comment moderation was that the comments seemed to be much "tighter" - kind of like when you do a letter to the editor or if you are a writing a column. You get one shot, and you want to get it right the 1st time. No chance to go back and forth with other commenters on what you really intended to say or mean, in real time.
"I don't know what your vision for the blog is, but the way I see it is that your posts serve as conversation starters. Most of us aren't asking you to do our thinking for us, which is why the people demanding to know how you voted are so annoying. Like anyone else, you're entitled to your opinions. You don't have to justify them unless you're trying to persuade."
I am providing conversation starters, but I am dismayed by commenters who don't pick up the cues and just burden the thread with off-point material, hack political remarks, statements about their own lack of interest, and so forth.
If you don't know what my vision for the blog is after all these years, well, why not try to understand? And if you just don't feel like understanding, because the comments section is your playground or your favorite place to shit, then why should my place remain open? I do this for the intrinsic value to me, and I only want comments if I enjoy having comments. Right now there is good and bad, but it is tipping toward bad, and I have to make some decisions. I have limited time.
Chuck: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!
I enjoy most of the blog posts and comments. I do learn a lot here! I skip the handful of commenters that are generally annoying and the back and forth meltdowns when they happen.
Would it work (or be possible?) to close commenting on a blog post case by case basis, when they turn into something that doesn’t conform to your vision? An explanation from you would be helpful in those cases.
I read (and subscribe) because I'm interested in reading Ann's take on things. I generally only read the comments in a "live-blogging" type situation.
It would be interesting to see the blog traffic analysis. Say there are 200 comments by 50 different commenters. They keep coming back so that’s 200 hits / views. But say the post has 5000 views. Is that ALL to read Althouse’s opinion? Or are people also interested in reading a free speech comments section. Sure there are trolls. But you have to know your shit and be able to write, or you look like a fool in here. That’s the fun.
Althouse has made a lot of money, and gained some fame an noterietay from this blog. The comments attract traffic. Traffic creates revenue. She knows this. I’ve been coming here for ten years now. I’ve turned A LOT of people on to this blog. Most don’t comment but they read it, and they read the comments. Some in my family even know characters like Laslo, Shouting Thomas, The Crack Emcee....
There is also a public service being performed by letting people know there are people like Inga, Howard, and Readering living near you.
As to the idea of "telling" the blog hostess what to write or not write...that is totally not acceptable. It would be like being invited to a home for a dinner party and then telling the hosts that they must redecorate their house how YOU like it and criticize the food that is being served.
If I don't like a post or am not interested...scroll past.
Sometimes I take an opposite view of what Althouse is writing. And while it is in my nature to debate (former captain of the debate team in college** 😎), I can "offer" a differing take on the subject and hope to open a new train of thought.
But...to demand that someone else write what I want, or insist that they are wrong and must think the way I do....rude! and also a giant waste of time
**are we even allowed to debate in college anymore? serious question
I don't know how many years I've been reading Althouse, but the attraction to me has been the wonderful variety of topics or features that are not political or the news of the day, but instead, something I'd never seen of, heard of, or forgotten about. We live in very turbulent, angry times, so there's a lot of turbulence and anger to clip out and talk about. But my favorite posts are those that have zero to do with politics. I can get enough of that everywhere else. The sameness of the other blogs gets tedious. Althouse is not tedious, though some of us commenters are- and I include myself in that pile.
As of the last year or two, I use the Althouse comment feature as a stretching exercise for my daily writing. It's like warming up before running. I get my writing motor going here, then go on to write pages of shit for myself.
If you have not noticed, your commenters love this place.
Migrating the blog is impossible we know. Maybe keep blogger as Althouse.com 1.0, a representation of an whole era, but start somewhere else fresh that has better comment controls.
Make Blogger like the Getty Villa and have a Getty Center of a new setting. New architecture, a place to explore the old and new in refreshed ways that is built better for your 2021 and beyond goals.
"Even after losing some good old-timers, I'm getting the best mix of right-leaning commentary on the Internet and mostly interesting observations on the passing scene."
I am unhappy with the way right-wing commenters have squatted here and made it unpleasant for other people. I don't want to spend my time maintaining a safe space for right-wingers. I'm not even a conservative. I'm just someone who wanted the full range of discussion, but this is not happening. This is a relatively small group of right-wingers bent on owning the space and excluding others. I am not here for that.
A couple questions.
Not knowing enough of how blogger works, can you turn off or on comments and moderation for specific posts, or is it a site-wide rule?
And if you do turn off comments, will you discuss the link you are posting rather than just put it up without comment?
Ann Althouse said...
I think comments are best when they flow in real time, which is why I have them the way they are now, but I cannot keep up with the after-the-fact moderation. People are just not respectful enough of my time, and it's just plain depressing.
I don't know how much money you have or how much it is worth to you. I am just pointing out an entirely different direction you could go.
You could pay a professional to build you a blog site with a comment section that had all of the options you want. I get many emails from people from India every day begging me to pay them to build my website.
They would be able to migrate your database of past comments to your own database. Probably show you how to use it but that is on you.
Given your current reach and readership you could easily turn this into a 6-7 figure business within months. It would reach thousands of people. Twitch/Youtube streamers with 500-1000 active viewers make 5-20k a month.
They pay people to do the editing and posting to other platforms and database maintenance.
You already spend a lot of time doing this. Doing something new and different is scary. Being an entrepreneur is a different mindset. With what you have here you could turn this into a true influencer network fairly quickly. You would have to learn some new technologies. You already did the Talking-Heads thing. It is not far different.
You already have all the pieces here. It would not be a big step.
Most of the comments tend to steer hard away from the original intent of the post, if they refer to the post at all. It seems like Ann's commenter base is a lot more right wing than Ann, for whatever reason.
There are a few people whom I perceive to be on both the far right and far left that could receive a lifetime ban.
Not because their comments are offensive, but rather because they’re so predictable.
I don't know how many years I've been reading Althouse, but the attraction to me has been the wonderful variety of topics or features that are not political or the news of the day, but instead, something I'd never seen of, heard of, or forgotten about. We live in very turbulent, angry times, so there's a lot of turbulence and anger to clip out and talk about. But my favorite posts are those that have zero to do with politics. I can get enough of that everywhere else. The sameness of the other blogs gets tedious. Althouse is not tedious, though some of us commenters are- and I include myself in that pile."
Thank you.
"If you have not noticed, your commenters love this place."
I have liked being a place, but I am also a human being. Read this thread. Do you see love? I have loved blogging, and I need to love what I am doing or it makes no sense for me to spend my time this way. Everything that detracts from MY loving it is a negative that I want to eliminate. What is it to me that YOU love it if what you love is access to a space where you do things alongside me, taking advantage of me, but not increasing MY enjoyment of the place? I am facilitating conversation, but that's not all I'm doing, and I may need to cut the comments section lose, for the sake of my own liberation. This conversation here this morning is helping me decide. I am very close to cutting myself free from this heavy load and walking on alone.
There are a couple of commenters I could live without, but some probably feel the same about me.
I agree with that sentiment.
It is annoying when certain commenters take over the thread (for good or bad reasons). However, it is pretty easy to scroll past them which I often do.
Ann:
Some people are just fucking idiots. That’s life. That’s the downside to freedom of speech.
Of late I haven’t had time to read this blog which I have read and commented on for over for over ten years in part because I wanted to understand how the right thinks, and because I appreciate the way Althouse thinks. But frankly my impression is the blog seems to becoming QANon lite with its claims that Biden will be gone by Easter, or that the election was stolen with no evidence. As Sidney Powell’s defense claimed no reasonable people would believe this stuff, and I think Althouse is right to be concerned about this slippery slope away from reason.
Like many, apparently, I come largely for the comments. I understand you have a vision, but it isn't particularly clear to me what that vision is, and if you're anything like me (dubious) that may shift and change with time. I don't see how commenters could be expected to stick to a vision that hasn't been explained clearly (a sentence, not a dissertation), and, of course, some wouldn't even if they understood it.
I understand the need to moderate comments (spam, and some, but very little, language), and I also know blogger gives you few tools (an imperfect spam catcher and no ability to block specific IPs or commenters). I know some commenters are tiresome, some are even aggravating; but you and I may perceive those commenters differently. I think the current system of light moderation is working OK. If it gets really aggravating, shutting down comments for a few days does seem to restore some semblance of good behavior.
At his point Ann, turning off the comments section, or making people email them for selective publication will severely lower your traffic. Who is going to take the time to research, link, and wrote interesting comments if their not going to get published? Often the debates and banter between commenters is really good.
Without the comments, this blog would be like Walt Disney without his cast of characters. I’m sure you know this, and it is part of your conundrum. Yes the burden is yours, but so is the revenue. You know the free comments zone helps bring it in. And don’t worry, you’ll always be the hostess with the mostest, and center of attention, and some will wait with baited breath for your or Meade to acknowledge their comment.
There is more to this poll than meets the eye. Especially when censorship and cancel culture is just getting revved up. I venture to guess someone outside the blog publisher is interested in censoring this comments section. Deplorable roam too freely here. It was bound to happen. It has everywhere else.
I once accidentally clicked on "E-mail follow-up comments" here and my inbox was overwhelmed. That day I began to appreciate the extraordinary time sink that is moderation. Accordingly, I have minimized my commenting ever since.
Let me just say that the Althouse blog has been a wonderful gift in my life. The comment section here is far superior to that of Instapundit or Powerline, and I've given up on the comments at the newspapers--they are an echo chamber. The majority of Althouse comments are substantive, informative, worth reading.
But moderation is tedious, unrewarding work. I've been grateful that Ann and Meade have stuck with it this long, but all good things do come to an end.
"Not knowing enough of how blogger works, can you turn off or on comments and moderation for specific posts, or is it a site-wide rule?"
I can turn them off for particular posts.
"And if you do turn off comments, will you discuss the link you are posting rather than just put it up without comment?"
I'll do whatever I feel like. Sometimes when you read, you then think your own thoughts. Reading gets you started. You don't need the writer to sledgehammer every last thought that will arise. You don't need commenters to spell out the points the blogger has already given you the power to think on your own.
Ann:
Do you agree with my jazz/basketball analogy?
Playing music or basketball by yourself is as much fun or as creative.
"Not sure what you mean by 'shit on the post'. If it's someone who wants a post about some other topic that's certainly inconsistent with the rules of the comment section."
Go back over the last 50 posts and read the first 3 comments on each. This might take you half an hour. At the end of the half hour, you will have your answer.
I have been coming here too [15 years now ?] mostly for the comments. Althouse's post sources [i.e. Michele Goldberg, Amanda Marcote, NYT, WAPO. New Yorker] are too often just liberal insanity or what I call Same Old Far Left Lunacy. Or if you prefer the Latin:
Idem Vetus Longe Reliquit Amentia.
And Happy Easter to the Iron Horse of the Blogosphere, An Althouse and Meade and all the commenters and readers.
I come here for Ann and I come for the comments. You turned off comments once and I liked it less and visited less. Like Laurel above, I save favorite comments and keep a list.
That being said, I don’t know how much I add to the conversation when I do comment and would be willing to moderate myself out of commenting if the other commenters (I’m especially thinking of Laslo, Bob Boyd, William, Pants) could stay.
Limit comments to five words
"Go back over the last 50 posts and read the first 3 comments on each. This might take you half an hour. At the end of the half hour, you will have your answer."
But here's a prime example.
"Some of the commenters really are rude and condescending, like telling Althouse what she shouldn't read, or that the SNL clip wasn't funny and SNL hasn't been funny since the Coneheads, or the music video sucked, or "I nevah read Twitter blah blah" etc. It's like criticizing the meal when someone else is paying."
Exactly.
Maybe your magnum opus is finally complete? Maybe you could take a day off, break your streak, and leave the blog as is written into the Book of the Internet, and head over to Substack, and start a new project with, hopefully, better moderation tools. This would pain me, but it also pains me to demand from you effort that doesn't bring you happiness when I am not paying you anything aside from using the portal when I go on Amazon.
I am comfortably retired too, and no amount of money would get me to work at some fundamentally unnecessary thing every day, at something I didn't enjoy.
Althouse, I don't think it's your job to create a space for people who "mostly come here for the comments." Just guessing here that you don't really need the money you earn from the blog, though maybe you do like being known as a "high traffic" site; nothing wrong with that either. We all have egos. You're retired, unless you do need the money, do what makes you happy.
nn Althouse said...
"Even after losing some good old-timers, I'm getting the best mix of right-leaning commentary on the Internet and mostly interesting observations on the passing scene."
I am unhappy with the way right-wing commenters have squatted here and made it unpleasant for other people. I don't want to spend my time maintaining a safe space for right-wingers. I'm not even a conservative. I'm just someone who wanted the full range of discussion, but this is not happening. This is a relatively small group of right-wingers bent on owning the space and excluding others. I am not here for that.
Finally the truth comes out. The right wing commenters presence is the problem. Their very presence makes people uncomfortable.
Ann is getting push back from the people that want the deplorables shut up.
Are you going to talk yourself into shutting us up Ann?
We are all pebbles thrown into a pond. We all make ripples. The Althouse blog makes pretty big ripples right now. With a tweak or two it would make waves. And it has this effect because it is a places where almost all ideas and viewpoints can be discussed.
But if you listen to those loud and powerful voices that want the deplorables shut up you will be just like all the other curated safe spaces for progs.
You will sink and be forgotten.
Personally I will remember for a while. I had a lot of formative discussions here. My ideas were challenged. A lot of people had a similar experience. These are massive ripples that this blog put into our society.
How many people has this blog informed and changed because it was an open forum?
Is this blog a force for good? Will it be a force for good? Or are you going to become just like all the other safe spaces?
I think you should just do what’s easiest for you. I come here to read Althouse much, much more than I come here to read comments.
So I just read the comments that came in while I wrote my comment.
Following up with a variation on Achilles' suggestion of paying someone else for moderation, what about joining Pajamas Media and giving them the moderation job?
It seems to be working for Glen Reynolds.
I'll admit that I come for the comments more than Ann's writings (although she often posts some interesting things). My ideal comments would probably include some basic registration that still allows for anonymity via a pseudonym, combined with a way to upvote/downvote threads. If Johnny Jackass and Penny Progressive want to engage in another pointless fight over the 2020 election in a thread about Jazz music, the large majority of commenters would probably downvote those comments, and those comments get either automatically hidden unless the reader chooses to see them, shuffled off to moderation, or shuffled to the bottom of the thread/comments section.
I am providing conversation starters, but I am dismayed by commenters who don't pick up the cues and just burden the thread with off-point material, hack political remarks, statements about their own lack of interest, and so forth.
I felt this with the "free to be you and me" post. I will admit that my comment there was non-serious and contributed nothing, but seeing so many of the first bunch of comments use the post to soapbox about genders was disheartening. Not sure if the point of the post whooshed past them or they just didn't care.
Is there something in the Patreon model that would work for you? That might be more financially beneficial to you.
Ann Althouse said...
"Some of the commenters really are rude and condescending, like telling Althouse what she shouldn't read, or that the SNL clip wasn't funny and SNL hasn't been funny since the Coneheads, or the music video sucked, or "I nevah read Twitter blah blah" etc. It's like criticizing the meal when someone else is paying."
Exactly.
You should mock those people.
Maybe even teach them to become more open minded and stop filtering their information sources so assiduously.
If you just shut them up then they win and you lose. They win because it shuts everyone up and an open source of information is closed to the world.
Just one less pebble, or in this case a thousand fewer pebbles thrown into the pond.
>>This is a relatively small group of right-wingers bent on owning the space and excluding others. I am not here for that.
A suggestion: Name and Shame. Call them out, by name. Make the first post of every thread that list of names, and asking us not to engage. Enlist the rest of us to support you by ignoring their posts. (And if I am on your list of right wingers, just tell me and I'll leave. I don't understand why anyone would stay after being told to go...)
I know you've called out some posters and bad behaviors in the past, but it sounds like you have reached the point where more direct action and more frequent reminders are required.
I would still visit your blog if you did not allow comments at all.
It's a tragedy of the commons, with only one person to pick up the shit. I am hesitant in general to give advice, but this post is sorta asking for it: why not a more contemporary platform, something of more recent vintage with features built-in to handle the current state of the web? Besides the fact that these newsletter/blogging platforms provide better features, the monetization options are interesting, and could facilitate offloading the burdensome aspects while preserving the fun parts. A web developer could archive and re-publish the entire blog contents (full comment history may take a more skilled scraping) and pop it into most of the pre-built platforms or into a customized one. They say in real estate it's never a good idea to have the best house in a bad neighborhood, and that's increasingly apt description of Althouse's position in the blogger eco-system.
"I read all of your posts but not all of the comments. I didn't think you read all the comments. I can see how that would be a chore....."
I don't read all the comments, but there are times in the day when what I do is see what's happening in the comments, and mostly I like to do that reading. But tending to the bad side of what's in the comments is burdensome work for me. If that part of the work were a JOB someone wanted to hire me to do, I would not accept that job unless I were desperate for money. But then I would be motivated by earning money I needed. As it is, tending to the comments is something I'm doing as a side matter as I do something for my own enjoyment and expression, and it is not a necessary side matter. So, really, I'm only doing that extra work because I enjoy reading the comments myself. So if people want comments, they need to contribute good comments. But even people who seem to care about the comments will not rise to the level that I've asked for over and over.
"I like things the way they are. Some of the discussions become too arcane or involve an endless exchange of petty insults, but many commenters here are informative or witty. Some of the insults are pretty good. There's a spontaneity and Punch and Judy show quality to the exchanges"
But how much work would you personally do, for no pay, in order to maintain a Punch and Judy show?
Thank you for answering, Althouse.
I can take a hint. As a 'right-wing squatter', I'll bid this blog adieu. It's been a fun ride, though, and I really do read most of your blog and appreciate it more than you know.
Reminds me of the classic business dilemma in tech. You may like the place you are, that you've gotten to. But the logic of tech biz is grow or die, so you don't get to stay there, rather you need to scale. But scaling a business and running a business at scale is not anything like the startup and early growth phase. Different set of skills, different mindset required, and it's just not as much fun for many people.
Achilles said...
Finally the truth comes out. The right wing commenters presence is the problem. Their very presence makes people uncomfortable.
*************
Yeah but she's right. Y'all want a safe space for right wingers, and you want Ann to pay for it and moderate it for you. And when she doesn't, you become abusive. Half of you sound like a jilted ex-husband, simmering over that witch that did you wrong, all because a comment you don't like appeared. And that's on a good day.
No moderation works best. As noted by many above, I come for the comments and am able to easily ignore the spam or the trolls by scrolling past them. Althouse's posts are jumping off points for interesting and intense dialogs (multi-logs?) between intelligent (for the most part) and involved spectators of the passing scene. I think Althouse's problem arises from the fact that her blog, as are all blogs, is a vanity project. She wants people to share and admire her interests. She needs that sense of importance which attended her tenure in the classroom, now lost. To get the thrill that comes from being appreciated in that way, there needs to be a feedback mechanism, otherwise your efforts achieve no reward. For myself, her topics and what she writes, in and of them selves, are low on my interest scale, especially since her choices are invariably from liberal rags like the NYTs, the WAPO, The Atlantic, etc. However, given the ingenuity of her commenters, even the most arcane and obtuse subjects can be made interesting. My guess is that if she eliminates comments very few (include me in that group) will visit her blog. For Althouse to make a decision, she needs to honestly evaluate her motivation for having a blog and what rewards, other than a few dollars from Amazon, she needs to get from producing it.
But how much work would you personally do, for no pay, in order to maintain a Punch and Judy show?
What stops you from just trying one of your other options? You aren't going to be able to control other people, so just do what works for you.
I do not comment regularly. I visit very regularly. The comments are the dessert table at the fancy place where you go to get a good meal. For free! Sure some of the dessert plates, you are like, what the hell shit is that. But other plates do offer something you would never have thought of, and they can serve to compliment the steak that the hostess served up. I presume the hostess only puts up with the endless mob of idiots who bring the dessert plates to (her) table, since she herself may - from time to time - want to enjoy a slice of pie. I am thankful that this place offers up steak. Again, for free! Can I live without the dessert table. Likely. Will it be the same place? No. But that’s not for me to decide.
The hard truth is that the shit plates are animate and cannot seemingly have the self respect to sit there, but instead have to reach out and infect other plates. Is it too much to ask plates - all plates - to say your piece (once) and if everyone moves on past you, well you don’t get to have a second shot again down the aisle. Leave room for other plates to offer their piece, no one wants a table that is all apple pie (however good) or that shit with suspect whipped cream.
Things change in time, perhaps the fact that this place - your place - held out so long from what infected the rest of the internet cannot be stopped.
Althouse is frustrated that the blog does not seem to attract smart, strong liberal commenters? That is kind of what I'm hearing.
"It's a tragedy of the commons, with only one person to pick up the shit. I am hesitant in general to give advice, but this post is sorta asking for it: why not a more contemporary platform, something of more recent vintage with features built-in to handle the current state of the web? Besides the fact that these newsletter/blogging platforms provide better features, the monetization options are interesting, and could facilitate offloading the burdensome aspects while preserving the fun parts. A web developer could archive and re-publish the entire blog contents (full comment history may take a more skilled scraping) and pop it into most of the pre-built platforms or into a customized one. They say in real estate it's never a good idea to have the best house in a bad neighborhood, and that's increasingly apt description of Althouse's position in the blogger eco-system."
This is something I have looked into in the past. The blog is too large to extract from Blogger (especially with all the comments). And I am tired of looking at technical things. I just want to continue my daily practice of reading and writing, with some photography and drawing. It doesn't really matter to me anymore what the total number of readers is. If half the readers would go away without the comments, I'd still have plenty of readers, and they'd be much more the people I am writing for.
I like Ann's actual posts more than the comments section, for sure.
that's what I'm hearing to, Full of Soup. And it isn't the first time we've heard that.
So, a suggestion for Althouse (not that you need my suggestions). Turn on moderation OR turn off comments. Only approve the thoughtful liberal-leaning comments you receive, or only post those emails. See if that begins to open a space for the thoughtful liberal commenters you have been hoping to attract.
And now, I personally will try to be respectful of your wishes.
I haven't read any of the comments above.
Happy Easter Althouse.
Your blog is terrific. Thanks for doing it. I'm sorry (embarrassed) that you have to even thing about this.
Not sure of an answer at all. However, have you ever thought that occasionally - maybe every half hour on a "bad comments" day - you should just remind your readers to go get a drink and then come back? I think that pretty often.
Althouse at 8:50:
But here's a prime example.
That is a prime example?
The first three comments there are a problem?
What an anti-climax!
The problem is smart, strong liberals are rare as unicorns [oops -this comment will not be approved by the blog moderator]. Heh - I am teasing you Althouse.
Arturo Ui said...
Achilles said...
Finally the truth comes out. The right wing commenters presence is the problem. Their very presence makes people uncomfortable.
*************
Yeah but she's right. Y'all want a safe space for right wingers, and you want Ann to pay for it and moderate it for you. And when she doesn't, you become abusive. Half of you sound like a jilted ex-husband, simmering over that witch that did you wrong, all because a comment you don't like appeared. And that's on a good day.
Ann Althouse said...
It doesn't really matter to me anymore what the total number of readers is. If half the readers would go away without the comments, I'd still have plenty of readers, and they'd be much more the people I am writing for.
And it seems that is how it ends.
Ann bends the knee.
It is much easier to turn Ann Frank in than hide her in the attic.
I might come back every now and then to see how you are doing. But the writing is on the wall. Ann made this decision a while ago.
She is just looking for justification now.
I voted for an increased level of moderation but the comments here have brought home to me the workload that moderation brings with it (something I hadn't really considered when I voted). So, I say drop comments or at most allow e-mailed ones (with a disclaimer that you will only read the e-mails if you feel like it). Having literally just retired, I don't intend on doing much of anything that doesn't really appeal to me. This is my chance to do what I want and nothing I don't. You are retired and you should follow that rule, too. I love this blog and it has been part of my daily routine for many years. For the most part I've enjoyed the comment section but I could live without it. But not without the sunrise photos!
The blog is too big to archive with blogger's tools, which is where the "best house in an increasingly neglected neighborhood" description comes from. But with python scripts and the use of a few proxies to evade controls, the entirety of the blog could be scraped in short order. The tech stuff is awful to wade through for non-techies, but that's where having kids come in handy. The irony is that the tech stuff is miserable to non-techies, but this looks like a weekend's worth of work to anybody with scripting skills. Anyway, that's worth doing because you should own your archive. I'd donate to a gofundme just for that: scraping and archiving the blog. A decent techie would do it and even give it to you in a decent interface for what you could raise in a hour or two.
It doesn't really matter to me anymore what the total number of readers is. If half the readers would go away without the comments, I'd still have plenty of readers, and they'd be much more the people I am writing for.
It saddens me to read this, for entirely selfish reasons, because it seems to telegraph your decision, which I am not going to like, I am betting, once again, for personal reasons. You owe me nothing. But yeah, I will still read your blog. I am sure that the number of page views per day from me will drop dramatically, but unique users from me will stay the same. Maybe I could use your blog and others as writing prompts for my own personal journal, which is something I had been considering doing for quite a while now.
Email you if the mood really struck me on some topic.
Mike Sylwester said...
Althouse at 8:50:
But here's a prime example.
That is a prime example?
The first three comments there are a problem?
What an anti-climax!
I think she used the wrong link. I don't think she meant that post.
Achilles at 8:54
Finally the truth comes out. The right wing commenters presence is the problem. Their very presence makes people uncomfortable.
Ann is getting push back from the people that want the deplorables shut up.
That makes a lot more sense to me than Alhouse's "prime example".
Althouse said...What is it to me that YOU love it if what you love is access to a space where you do things alongside me, taking advantage of me, but not increasing MY enjoyment of the place? I am facilitating conversation, but that's not all I'm doing, and I may need to cut the comments section lose, for the sake of my own liberation. This conversation here this morning is helping me decide. I am very close to cutting myself free from this heavy load and walking on alone..
Fitting that this Easter morning we include Althouse among the persecuted. Tell me Ann, over the years you haven’t enjoyed the traffic, notoriety, fame, and $$$$? Something did change about this blog since COVID, Cancel Culture, and the 2020 riots hit. But it really changed after the election fraud and obvious treats to the blog. Ten years ago during the Scott Walker protests it was cutting edge. Risky filming filming frothing recall protesters at the WI State Capitol. That took guts, especially since you were still teaching at UW at the time. It was the precursor of where we are today, and it all started in Madison, WI. And...it brought about the cultural ugliness that brought us to this discussion.
But I give you a lot of credit for contemplating walking away for your own piece of mind. Everything is a moment in time. The Jennifer Ruben’s, Peggy Noonan’s, and Lincoln Project dudes are just too narcissistic to do that. You’re not a Joy Beher and I like that. Not only did you gain traffic from the comments section, you also found a husband. Quite a story. Whatever you decide, good luck and God’s Blessings to you and Meade. And yes...I’ve enjoyed defending and bragging about Waukesha County, Wi on site I know Dane County communists read.
I read your analysis. The article. But if I can’t read Shouting Thomas, The Crack Emcee, or how Laslo can sexualize EVERYTHING, it’s not the same site. Whatever you decide I support. It’s your piece of mind. Piece of mind is something being stripped from all of us today. I want it for everyone....except Inga and Voltaire. HAPPY EASTER EVERYONE!
“What is it that you are getting from the comments? I have a vision for this blog, and if the commenters are doing something inconsistent with what I mean it to be, then what is my motivation to provide this place for you?”
Part of it, at least for me, is that you have built a community here, around your blogging. I have met several participants in real space, and several others reached out to bring me back in when I was disengaged after the Democrats stole the election and got away with it. I find I like most of the commentariat here, even some of the leftists.
Why provide a place for commenting? I was going to respond sarcastically, just because that is the way I am. But the reality, I think, is that the success of your blog is a combination of your content, and our commentary, even when it goes awry a bit. You have beautiful photography. I scan through your articles, stop and appreciate it. Then go check the comments. I wouldn’t come here for the photos though. Not the way my mind works. My partner is the visual one. The artistic one. I am more the intellectual one.
I think that we push you to be interesting. Who really cares about your takes on what articles say in the NYT? The people writing there are usually idiots, but too deep in the echo box to realize how inane much of what they say sounds like to the rest of us. We silently applaud your insights, but then look to the comments for others. We are your primary audience. You know that most of us read what you sa, think about it, and esp your insights. Yes, you have a much broader audience across the Internet (I was surprised when I ran into a mention at Ace of Spades the other day about Obama Voter Ann Althouse). But for the most part, all you have there are page counts and occasional cites in other blogs (and on FNC, or by the late Rush Limbaugh, with whom you shared a birthday).
It’s the feedback. We watch a lot of Turner Classic Movies. And my partner asks why isn’t the acting as good? Why was the comedy better? And for that, I would suggest that canned laughter is no substitute for the laughter of a live audience. The best comics and comedians still do live shows, and that keeps their humor sharp. I think that over the years, we have made your writing better. More interesting. Better written. Moreover, I think that your insights have improved, hearing other voices than you heard in Madison at the University and in the rarified venues of legal scholarship.
Likely more to come, as I continue consider this, and how to entice you to continue sacrificing for our benefit.
Achilles said...
It is much easier to turn Ann Frank in than hide her in the attic.
**************
Imagine being the kind of person who analogizes the murder of Ann Frank to proposed blog format changes.
Blogger Ann Althouse said...
"I am providing conversation starters, but I am dismayed by commenters who don't pick up the cues..."
Guilty as charged. Ann sees the world from a very different perspective than I do. That's a big reason I come here. Perhaps as a STEM guy I'm a bit autistic about cues. But I see value in exposure to alternative mindsets, even if they seem fuzzy to me. It's important to understand why people hold the views they do, even if those views are sometimes loathsome to me.
The anonymous nature of the Internet and blog comments make it easy to throw out nasty, personal and off-topic comments without negative consequences. In a perfect world we would all comment in good faith. But we don't.
"I am unhappy with the way right-wing commenters have squatted here and made it unpleasant for other people."
"Squatted"? How so?
Yes, some commenters are mean-spirited toward progs, though the majority of us are civil in our contempt and would like to see higher-quality lefties join. But what's unpleasant for lefties here is that it is the one place online where they are outgunned. That is intolerable. Of course, everywhere else online is unpleasant for the right-wing squatters (even the supposedly right-wing sites).
I understand that the political profile of the commentariat is not what you envisioned. But in the space you provided something unique emerged. You may be "unhappy," but I have seen you evolve over the years, discovering something you did not know was possible. Whether you've had enough is up to you, of course.
You owe us nothing and I thank you for all you've done regardless of what you decide to do next.
My two cents Althouse. Today is Easter when a dead man comes back to life. Currently your blog is very much alive. If you change it drastically, you will do a reverse Resurrection by killing something on Easter.
I was going to vote for “moderate but publish nearly everything,” but there have been times when I’ve been up in the middle of the night and the cafes have stalled. So I voted to keep it the way it is. However, I have to agree with others who say if you aren’t finding happiness and instead are finding comment section control a burden, you must do what is best for you!!! I’ve been coming to this blog for about 17 years now, since my father first asked if I’d heard of a Professor Althouse on campus, and that she had a very interesting blog. I’ve learned and thought about many subjects, from your posts of course, but also from the many commenters who have come here over the years posting in good faith to add to and participate in a comment community that is open and free. Whatever your choice, thank you for keeping this blog going (daily!) for so long.
I think you have expectations for us that I never fully appreciated. I always viewed this as intellectual entertainment. And I do not mean that as a slight. It's very difficult to be both intellectual and entertaining enough to have a large, engaged following for over a decade. I need to consider taking my commenting here as a more serious charge.
I vote to keep it as is, but I might suggest you add a sidebar for posting rules like Reddit has in many subreddits. Rule #1: I post about topics I want to talk about; do not comment about why I didn't cover this or that. Rule #2: No personal attacks. Rule #3: Stay on topic.
Things like that you can point to when a commenter violates those established rules/norms/expectations and then ban them if they continue.
It doesn't really matter to me anymore what the total number of readers is. If half the readers would go away without the comments, I'd still have plenty of readers, and they'd be much more the people I am writing for.
I think you have your answer Althouse.
I voted for 3 knowing it's a no go. I check instapun everyday and have never read the comments. Comments are interesting enough here that I got a gmail address just so I can comment. I only checked my gmail once about 5 years ago. The last 6 years I've read a whole lot of comments. Tragedy of the comments? Maybe my life would be better off not reading comments?
Back and forth can be interesting but often tedious. The naysayers get ignored anyway, Why not
try limiting comments to one comment per person. Except me. And to get us up early and alert limit comments to 50 per post.
Generally I think the comments section works well and is very dynamic with some very smart and well-read people. The dynamic is interesting too — a mostly left-liberal blogger with a mostly conservative group of commenters.
I also value your commitment to absolute freedom of viewpoint for the purposes of discussion, that would disappear without comments.
The only big negative I see is the personal ad hominem back-and-forth. I try to avoid personal comments unless it’s a compliment, and stick to arguing ideas, not with individuals. Arguing with people online is a giant waste of time and energy, it seems to me.
Althouse : This is something I have looked into in the past. The blog is too large to extract from Blogger (especially with all the comments). And I am tired of looking at technical things. I just want to continue my daily practice of reading and writing, with some photography and drawing.
Extracting or archiving the blog. This is something that I know nothing about, but I'm thinking that there is someone out there with the technical expertise to be able to advise you. Or possibly someone to hire and do that work for you.
It would be good to have a separate archive for people to be able to view (read only) past articles or to be referred to by the writer of the blog. Then the blog could be transferred to a newer updated platform which would be able to do what you are looking for (maybe)
I understand being tired of dealing with the technical aspects of blogging. This is not your forte and why should it be. Right now I'm dealing with some technical things (getting internet access capable of streaming videos into our RV) that are way above my pay grade. I'm getting a headache from trying to figure this out on my own. I'm not capable of this. I'm hiring someone.
If you change the blog to only publishing email comments that you like...it would not be anywhere near the salon/cafe/welcoming feeling that it has now.
Just my 2 cents.
"I am unhappy with the way right-wing commenters have squatted here and made it unpleasant for other people."
I don't want to say "none", but I don't think that there are many "right-wing" commenters here, once you take into account American history and political philosophy generally. Commitment to rule of law, due process, and equality before the law is a moderate position, and that doesn't change just because the great fortunes of the New Economy are antagonistic to the Bill of Rights.
Keep it the way it is but with one change: Allow us to edit our comments for five minutes. To fix typos, extra words, left out words, etc.
The nice thing I like about this blog is getting to know the other commenters. Especially those who either live nearby or those who are doing or have done things similar to what we're doing.
Moderating comments slows down the rhythm of the blog. It's also a huge burden on our hostess. Perhaps if there was a "moderation needed" button to alert you, Ann, to which posts need attention?
Arturo Ui said...
Achilles said...
It is much easier to turn Ann Frank in than hide her in the attic.
**************
Imagine being the kind of person who analogizes the murder of Ann Frank to proposed blog format changes.
I know why you are focusing on my posts.
How many emails have you and your other people sent Ann?
Does she know you are all organized?
Not this shit again.
Scott Alexander, of Slate Star Codex fame, now has a Substack site where he posts material. Completely separate from that, there is a web forum / bulletin board that is run entirely by people who were commenters at his old site. At this site, Alexander's posts are discussed, as well as new additional topics raised by the commenters themselves. There is moderation, split among several people. So far, it seems to work very well in keeping a high wheat/chaff ratio.
So, I propose Althouse turns off comments, and several ambitious, energetic, and web-savvy commenters with time on their hands (i.e., not me) enable such a forum. Althouse writes what she wants, the existing Althouse commenting community has a place to gather and discuss. Althouse can ignore them entirely if she wants, commenters aren't constrained by Althouse's choice of topics and source material.
I agree with Achilles, and most readers know he and I disagree sharply on most things.
You have referred to “shitting on the post”. That's vague. What counts as shitting? I don’t think Achilles calling me an idiot is shitting.
I don't have the scripting chops I once did, but I can easily imagine that there are scripts that could be written that could enforce commenter bans by running on a scheduled basis, maybe comments could be held in moderation and approved every ten minutes by a bot that weeds out the banned commenters. Or perhaps one could be written where you could click on a problematic, but not ban worthy comment, and initiate a form letter type email reminding the commenter privately of the guidelines.
Cherry-picked selection sets up hostility between those who make the cut and those who don't. It is also too likely to result in a set of comments that is too curated and crafted and doesn't reflect how people really think.
If you had the time and staff and software, notifying people in more or less real time via email that they are in violation and further posts will be deleted would be a good way to go, but that requires time and money and a reworking of the site to include a mailbox function. It would also be a major headache to have to keep track of everything as it happens.
So maybe a warning that commenters who go in for personal abuse will be banned for a period would be the best suggestion. Also posts about Dr. Zuma Zuk or plumbing contractors in the Emirates or Pakistan should also be banned.
I don’t really understand what Ann wants or is hoping to achieve with this post. Many people above have said what they want and Ann has pushed back saying that’s not what she wants. She doesn’t have to justify herself to us: her place, her rules. But why ask?
Anyway, here goes:
I come here for Ann and I come for the comments. Like Laurel at 8:02, I save favorite comments and keep a list. I don’t know how much I contribute via comments and would happily moderate myself out if we could keep Laslo, Bob Boyd, William, Pants and many others. You turned off comments in the past and I liked the blog less and visited less.
Althouse is one of my must-read blogs. There aren’t but a few. I always learn stuff from her posts and often from the comments. The play of different minds is IMHO important and certainly interesting. The odd bickering I ignore and I don’t think the commenters are all of one political stripe, more a strong core of reasonable thinkers with a libertarian bent and a small noisy claque of extremists who I can tune out easily enough. I would greatly miss the zingers by Laslo and others, the personalized hints of life experience by Mike of Snoqualmie or Mike K or stevew or Shouting Thomas or many others.
This is like the pub down the street where a lot of smart funny hang out, learn from each other, try out ideas, are forced to improve their arguments, get shouted down and then forgiven. If has become unrewarding, Prof A, tell us how we can take on some of the work or be less difficult. Thanks.
"what's unpleasant for lefties here is that it is the one place online where they are outgunned"
This isn't it. More like mobbed. Almost every blog is an echo chamber and Althouse has somehow avoided the worst of this. But when good conversation turns to posturing and insults it's no fun. It's the turning to typical partisan whining or strawmen or all the juvenile insults that make sthe blog comments boring because it is so predictable. Real conversation affects opinions and changes minds. But these never last because the people who feel unheard and want to dominate always are willing to spend more time in order to get their ego boost.
I can imagine the pressure being placed on blogs to prove they abide by the moderation policies of the platform that constantly change. I can also understand the burden of complying with those policies.
Anyway, I suspect this is all a ruse, and Meade just wants comments shut down because he knows where they can lead. It's classic case of successful folks pulling up the ladder.
"Comments are interesting enough here that I got a gmail address just so I can comment. I only checked my gmail once about 5 years ago."
Me too. I've never looked inside mine. Lord knows what's in there. I guess a silver lining to Althouse shutting down is I could get rid of it. I'll also probably be a happier person. I've given up on the "news." So many of the crappy, insane things going on in the world I learn about here.
Except for the discussions where you participate, Ann, I find little value in the comments.
Perhaps leaving a daily Cafe post will let the conservatives here keep their club ... but discussion posts have become an echo chamber and most well meaning folks who think differently have been harassed into leaving.
I have to say that excepting a few occasions in the last year, my own posts don't add much as I am posting in expectation of personal attacks and willful misinterpretation.
I think allowing comments on threads you will be actively engaging in makes sense, but outside of that it seems to add little benefit for you or the blog in general.
As was told to me this week here, 'get your own blog'. It is time for your conservative trolls to do that very thing and stop raining on this (mummy) parade.
Let me agree with the earlier comment about liking the non-politic stuff better too. I have learned a lot from posts and comments over the years and it has affected me personally and professionally. A number of insights have gone into my work and I deeply value hearing the perspectives and curiosities. I loved back in the day where there seemed to be a actual world class expert in the comments on almost any topic raised. And I love being exposed to art, lit, and culture that aren't in my circle. I love talking about these alongside important events but don't like when conversations become predictable poo slinging.
Well, now I do understand what this is all about.
Althouse’s dedication to free speech has led to the unhappy result that her identity politics obsession has been beaten to a pulp in the comments section. So, she finds herself in the untenable situation of have lost the debate in her own blog... in a rout.
I can sympathize, but the reality is that your identity politics obsession is laughable bullshit, prof. This was a debate you were destined to lose, Althouse. The “women are oppressed just like blacks under Jim Crow” theme that underlies your political ideology was and is absurd. There was never any there there.
I change my vote. You should get rid of the comments so that you don’t have to read this daily rebuke to your identity politics obsession. You’ll be happier. You got rid of your links when that no longer served the purpose of attracting an audience. You don’t need the comments any more to attract an audience.
Get rid of it.
I have stopped following some blogs who did away with the comment section because it just becomes another opinion of whomever wrote the story for the blog. It gets boring.
“I just want to continue my daily practice of reading and writing, with some photography and drawing. It doesn't really matter to me anymore what the total number of readers is. If half the readers would go away without the comments, I'd still have plenty of readers, and they'd be much more the people I am writing for.”
I think that you are wrong there. But I am not you... So I too could be the one who is wrong.
I hesitate to use this analogy on Easter or so near Passover (having watched The Ten Commandments last night), but you are our blog goddess. We hang on everything you say. Ok, maybe an exaggeration, but the point is still valid. It is the feedback. I tried blogging a long time ago. I liked hearing myself talk (I am often accused of just that by my partner). But it quickly became old. Why go to the bother of taking and publishing those photos? Or dissecting NYT articles for us? Etc. If you aren’t getting fairly immediate feedback on what you write, it is more akin maybe to standing on the street corner, talking about something, and having everyone walking by just ignore you. Or maybe shouting into the wind. Or just sitting in your room and talking to yourself (said partner is always surprised when she discovers that instead of that, I was actually on the phone). I do talk to myself a lot - just in my head. And I will admit to the brilliance of my insights. But I quickly become bored, because I know how easily I am impressed with myself and my remarkable insights. Often, I find myself the smartest person in the room - until my partner opens the door walks in.
How do you know that anyone is reading your blog, appreciating your fine artistic eye, or your discerning intellect, absent your commentariat? And if you don’t really know if you have a serious audience, then why bother publishing in the first place? Disk space is cheap. You could do as I do - just save your amazing insights, your cutting wit, etc somewhere and be done with it. Don't bother with the publishing. Not worth the effort.
Choice 1: Keep it the way it is. To put it metaphorically, there are occasional dog turds on the sidewalk, but I credit myself with enough intelligence to recognize them and enough effort to step around them.
Choice 2, 3, or 4: Orderly and controlled by unseen forces, at cost of huge overhead, negating the original utility and purpose. Take a number at the [insert government office of your choice]; you will be called long after you have forgotten why you are here.
Shouting Thomas said...
Althouse’s dedication to free speech has led to the unhappy result that her identity politics obsession has been beaten to a pulp in the comments section. So, she finds herself in the untenable situation of have lost the debate in her own blog... in a rout.
************
What a whiny little crybaby...
Thanks Anne for the blog
And taking the time and huge effort to manage the comments to make them readable.
I’m not sure you are asking the right question.
It appears what you are asking is how to moderate comments.
Perhaps a better question is how to make this a better experience for Anne.
What can be done to improve your experience, and reduce your time doing tedious work?
Constraints:
Given blogger ain’t changing.
And it’s basically impossible to move your blog to another platform
Total moderation / approve each comment kills the flow.
You have limited time
You looking forward conversations to stay on topic
Moderation is a necessary evil, but not why you do the blog.
Not moderating makes the comments horrible
Your vision
Goal:
Commenters follow your vision for commenting on posts
Question:
What is the best way to get commenters to follow your vision. Or, how do you train them to do so?
Swags:
1. I hate to admit it, but Chucks post of having guidelines probably should be part of a solution.
2. Perhaps in the text under leave your comment, explain if you violate the guidelines enough to annoy you, they will get moderated out without even reading their name. I don’t know if there is a space limit.
3. A link to the about us page with more guidelines.
4. Under each post, write some type of guidelines. Boilerplate you can cut and paste.
5. Delegate some moderation
The worst approach is often the one people recommend: “trusted commenter”. As an example o what not to do look at Jerry Coyne's blog. It is the most perfect echo chamber with even mild dissent usually banished,and most comments are empty dunks.
You say you have a vision for the blog, but your vision seems to include other people. There's the rub. They will never conform, and wouldn’t be worth anything if they did.
I'm pretty sure I do not share Ann's politics but really enjoy her writing and choice of topics. I'd continue reading even without comments.
All corners of Teh Interwebs must be properly "scrubbed" in anticipation of the coming Year Zero.
It was always inevitable.
The attraction to this site depends upon the relative freedom of the comments section. Changing to moderated, approved comments only would be killing he goose.
I read Ace of Spades for his posts and his strong opinions. I never read the comments there and only rarely read the comments at Insty. Here I pretty much read the comments first. Crazy huh.
Extracting or archiving the blog. This is something that I know nothing about, but I'm thinking that there is someone out there with the technical expertise to be able to advise you. Or possibly someone to hire and do that work for you.
Conservative Tree House was forced to leave their host by political decision. They only had two weeks and managed the transition. I don't comment there but read it every day. You might find some technical help from that group.
Not lost on anyone:
The most popular blog post on Althouse right now is Althouse saying she wants all or most people to stop commented, then asks commenters what they think.
Paco Wove @ 9:32 has the right idea, it seems to me.
Turn off comments here, let someone dedicate time to building a forum — the content of which Althouse is clearly (and legally) _not_ responsible for — and then Althouse can wash her hands of the unpleasant parts and focus on those things that inspire her, while commenters can still engage in the forum.
I view many of your posts to be somewhat like a Socratic law school course - you throw an idea out but don't spell out your thoughts on it or lead us to any particular conclusion. These are the posts where the comments add the most. One possibility would be to allow for unlimited (or lightly moderated) comments on particular posts but no comments on others.
I would add that I probably would not check in on the blog so often without the comments. There is a fairly regular set of commenters, and their number is sufficiently small that a regular reader can develop a feel for their (on-line, at least) personalities, political views, etc. It feels like being a part of a family or circle of friends, in a way that makes this blog feel special and intimate. I read Instapundit, for example, but rarely read the comments because (a) there are way too many, and (b) I don't know who any of them are. Here, there are many that I can recognize when reading comments on my cell phone, even though the commenter name is too small for me to see - I can recognize themes, writing styles, etc. To repeat what many above have said, I feel like I am exposed to smart thinkers with viewpoints different than mine that have reshaped my view on certain things. While I recognize that this is Ann's blog, I come as much to see their thoughts on things as hers.
I get a lot out of the comments. Can't you "white list" certain commenters, so that their comments are published without moderation? To get on the white list (if it were up to me), you need to stay on topic, refrain from "proof by repetition" and "proof by bullying" (name calling), imputing bad motives to others when a more benign explanation is available.
What is it that you are getting from the comments?
A community in which to debate ideas.
I have a vision for this blog, and if the commenters are doing something inconsistent with what I mean it to be, then what is my motivation to provide this place for you?
I thought your motivation was to inspire conversation and explore ideas. I was advise you like an artist to create and then give your creation to the world to react to.
Personally, the change I'd like to see is for you to interact more with the comments.
Happy and Blessed Easter to all
Poor Ann, swamped with comments on the 'Comments Vote' poll!
I voted to keep the status quo, but only because I believe the amount of work entail by moderation must be daunting, and I wouldn't want to impose that on our excellent host.
So although it was not a category, I would recommend taking a Red Queen approach to comment moderation: Arbitrary and capricious 'off with their head' when people step out of line, said line to be invisible and known only to Ms. Althouse. That should keep things pleasant with a minimum of worry to normal people, maximum to those who deserve it anyway.
Hmmm......what I really dislike are the obvious trolls re-iterating talking points from CNN.........repeatedly.
If you can't make your point in a single post, then.......maybe you should be posting elsewhere.
I'll guess that our hostess understands the lifetime of a post, and that the rate of comments diminishes over time. Maybe everyone gets to post a single comment on the post, but the second comment is delayed by two hours. That would stop a lot of the childish bickering.
A comment character limit might be another thought.
Also, you seem to be channeling Satre - hell is other people!
I come for the posts first but I do get a lot from the commenters as well. Blogs without commenters are less interesting.
I think Althouse has 2 issues to solve. My advice is decouple them. 1) Find a new platform with the features she wants. 2) Migrate the current content to the platform. She may have to concede on the second item, so maybe blogger goes into readonly mode for a while, perhaps forever, but her daily experience as a blogger should be much improved on a better platform.
Feminism is the educated woman's pagan religion.
Really, I understand how painful it must be to Althouse to be under siege by a bunch of assholes trashing her religion.
Christianity is going to triumph over feminist paganism every time when free speech prevails.
Make yourself happy, Althouse. Quit subjecting yourself to people like me and just write about your religion without interference and heckling.
Althouse said...I am unhappy with the way right-wing commenters have squatted here and made it unpleasant for other people. I don't want to spend my time maintaining a safe space for right-wingers. I'm not even a conservative. I'm just someone who wanted the full range of discussion, but this is not happening. This is a relatively small group of right-wingers bent on owning the space and excluding others. I am not here for that.
Well what I highlighted in bold is absolutely false. Left wingers don't debate right wingers. They pretend it's beneath them, but it's really because they can't defend their logical fallacies and lies. So, they support censorship and cancellation. If you want left wing comments from members of the Madison left wing community, you have to ban all the right wingers who have helped bring you tons of traffic and $$$$ over the years. This is starting to sound like how Andrew Breitbart and Trump put twitter on the map by attracting right wingers, and then @jack threw them and everyone else to the curb. Sign of the times I guess.
Are the right wingers the ones who have openly admitted to filing complaints about this blog with Google, or is it the left wing trolls? It was @Chuck I believe, and he ain't no right winger. You told us to stop responding to him and we did. Now you have the nerve to blame us for trying to "own this space". Wow.
Have you just used us for traffic and revenue, and seen us as deplorables all these years Ann? And now this morning you throw down the victim card. You are a liberal.
This is like how Bruce Springsteen only wants liberals to attend his concerts if he's ever allowed to have one again.
I used to tend bar. This would have been an interesting question I could have posed to the customers? Which customers should be flagged and which ones need to change their behavior ?
“But here's a prime example.“
That mix of comments is exactly what I would expect on a blog this size. On other blogs, I have seen something closer to the level of discourse you seem to desire, but those blogs get 5% of the number of comments yours gets.
I believe that to get to where you want to be, you will need to turn comments off for an extended period—at least a year—and wait for the readership to dwindle to those who are truly interested in what you write and for the others to find other places to hang out. Then quietly turn them back on.
Althouse fires a shot across our bow.
Achilles said...
Arturo Ui said...
Achilles said...
It is much easier to turn Ann Frank in than hide her in the attic.
**************
Imagine being the kind of person who analogizes the murder of Ann Frank to proposed blog format changes.
I know why you are focusing on my posts.
How many emails have you and your other people sent Ann?
Does she know you are all organized?
**************
You're the one who thinks comment moderation is no different than the Holocaust. Maybe sort that one out for yourself first.
Prof. Althouse, sorry the comments are getting you down.
For myself, I come here first because Althouse makes me think, and comes at her topics from a point of view that isn't mine, but isn't so far from mine that I feel there's nothing to discuss. Some regulars here are consistently thought-provoking. But even some I'm not a fan of will occasionally come out with something excellent.
I've appreciated the chance to read, learn, and discuss. I'll be sorry if the comments go. But as Sebastian wrote, you don't owe us anything. Wherever it goes from here, thanks for everything so far.
I think it's sad that some people would prefer sycophants to honesty.
First off, I have appreciated the comments on this blog and have learned a lot from them on occasion. In general, I agree with the least restrictive comments moderation possible and would say that you are even less restrictive than I would be for which I give you credit.
But, I also moderated a blog once upon a time. Some people are never happy even if you do exactly as they say.
If it isn't fun for you anymore, do what makes you happy. You own me, and others, nothing.
We're asked to believe a dozen ridiculousthings a day, men are women cities on fire for month areno concern there is an epidemic of anti asian violence and every outlets echoes these notions
The usual suspects repeats these notions like dementors and i dont see they are moderated in any particular way. Dissident voices more often than not get trapped in the capture.
Gahrie said...Personally, the change I'd like to see is for you to interact more with the comments.
What we are learning this morning is the reason that doesn't happen is because it is beneath our hostess to debate right-wing commentators which are the ones she seems to want discarded. So much for "cruel neutrality".
I can't read everything, but I don't recall Althouse ever engaging Shouting Thomas on his strong opinions regarding feminism. I think it's because he's right, and she and we are now suffering its output. The election fraud was treated as ridiculous, and beneath legal analysis on a "law blog".
Without commentary the blog becomes dead air over time. She knows it.
She'd have to revert back to the days when she actually wrote. Before Meade, that guy she met in the comments.
I am not going to advise Althouse on what to do with her blog. It's none of my business.
She seems to seek inspiration only in the feedback. Not enough people understand what she's thinking, and how she wants any given conversation to unfold. She's very disappointed.
I wish her luck in her never ending search for utopia in the blogoshpere.
As is the case for others, comments are a major reason I come here. I am interested in about 50% of what Ann posts, and in those posts, I always find comments that add more interesting information and perspective. I don't follow posts all day. I pop in at the end of the day, see what posts interest me, and then scan the comments - honestly - for length and commenter. I pause at longer comments (not walls-o-text, though...) and the avatars of certain commenters.
On the other hand, I would also be less likely to come here if comments were completely unmoderated, as well. So I have no doubt moderation is a massive pain in the neck and hampers your thinking and flow, and appreciate the time you put into that. I wish there were a way to employ someone to moderate for you.
Is registration not an option on blogger?
Rory said...
"I am unhappy with the way right-wing commenters have squatted here and made it unpleasant for other people."
Funny, most of the commenters that troll the most aren't "squatting" here, because they are NOT right wing. Those are the comments I jump over. I don't mind hearing REAL arguments from both sides, but not the trolling lies.
SOmething Else:
After the fact moderation. Make it clear that there will be no personal attacks or insults or otherwise ad hominem off-topic behavior. If someone simply cannot control him or herself after being called out multiple times (say five), they are history.
No anonymity -- have something to say, don't hide behind a fake name.
একটি মন্তব্য পোস্ট করুন