Public health officials get kind of attached to the power they get in epidemics. They don’t want to lose it.
— Andrew Sullivan (@sullydish) February 23, 2021
২৪ ফেব্রুয়ারী, ২০২১
The masks/condoms analogy might cut the other way.
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১২৩টি মন্তব্য:
It's true about health authorities craving power, but Andrew should really rethink the analogy.
I could only watch about 30 seconds of this man. He has enjoyed his power way too much. I'm exhausted by the "experts" who have been continually wrong and yet make pronouncements as if they are kings. Just stop.
Cheryl, you did 30 seconds more than I would even bother. These people have nothing to say to me.
Sullivan is spot on re public officials desperately clinging to power.
One of the things that we absolutely know is that there are things that we absolutely don’t know.
I think that just about sums it up.
It's true about health authorities craving power, but Andrew should really rethink the analogy.
In some ways the response to the AIDS epidemic is what gave us this mess: the inability of the government to target the main vector, the hedonistic aspects of the homosexual community, due to political fallout led to wasting money and time pushing protection to communities which weren't in danger, and billions spent playing catch-up later. No one every paid a price for it, especially not Fauci, and so they learned all the wrong lessons.
Try to get the federal mask mandate retracted from the airline industry. The flight attendants love their new power too, despite studies and the fact that the companies are touting the fact that it’s a VERY safe environment(on the aircraft).
It’s going to take a lot of public pushback to get the statists to relinquish some of that power. It needs to happen.
Not sure Andrew should be the one discussing this. Some of us have long memories.
Don't double condom.
Fauci started the anti-mask movement in the U.S. when he went on 60 Minutes and told people not to wear them. He should be persona non grata right along side Mini-Mario. Why is he still getting the hero worship treatment?
Had a public health professor that make it clear that there is a dictator inside every public health professionals.
He's an absolute mad man. What are the chances that he will not be in a private club that dines indoors?
EXACTAMENDE!
have come to believe that Fauci's public statements coordinate closely with the needs of his stock portfolio.
Ivor Cummins compares the lockdown results in New York and California with the no-lockdown results in Florida
Fauci didn't recommend the double dutch to fight aids?
What's with the double mask bullshit?
Blogger D.D. Driver said...
Fauci started the anti-mask movement in the U.S. when he went on 60 Minutes and told people not to wear them.
And he was right. The Surgeon General was right.
They all changed their tunes when Birx freaked out over the exploding numbers in NYC. Then masks went from can't hurt, to helpful, to mandatory, to better than a vaccine, to two, maybe 3 masks are needed,
Interview the next public health student or recent graduate you come across. I'll bet you'll find them to be a pretty typical progressive thinker (i.e. a normal student), albeit with an idea that they are there to save- not serve- the public.
Fauci is a bizarre case of someone who clearly loves his camera time and loves being viewed as the most important word on public health in America. Even more, it seems he has a need to have the people around him praise him and follow his edicts. Trump's people were not so easily swayed to just take his word and run with it. They wanted other opinions. That did not sit well with Fauci.
It's interesting that, though there are many medical people who disagree with him, he sucks the air out of any discussion. It is He alone that the press goes to. Despite the numerous times he has changed his word and direction on this topic. If he were my doctor, I would have found another very early on.
"Public health officials get kind of attached to the power they get in epidemics."
Indeed. Of course, we deplorables have known and opposed it all along.
Good to see Sullivan call BS. Can he serve as the canary liberal signaling left-of-center resistance?
And will he dare to make common cause with the deplorables?
Gov. Mob Cuomo(D) would rather your grand-parents die - than use the facilities created to aid sick patients - and instead those ships and buildings created to aid the sick, were left abandoned so that Cuomo(D) made sure grandma & GRANDPA died before Trump got any credit.
Sullivan's president Biden said that Cuomo(D) was the "GOLD STANDARD" IN governorship.
Others are coming forward noting Cuomo's mob-bully tactics. Cuomo(D) demanded fawning press and cock sucking while people died.
Coincidence Cuomo's long time GF left him?
Cuomo(D) family = CNN grandparent killing self-absorbed assholes (DEMOCRATIC)
Certainly not the best and the brightest federal official, but St. Fauci is the highest paid federal government employee.
Fauci is a MADMAN...but he's very popular in Madison, WI.
They wait for his every expert recommendation so they can shove it down everyone else's throats. Even the handicapped Ballerinas.
Birds of a feather...
Would 2020's BLM/Antifa "mostly peaceful" protests be the COVID-19 equivalent of San Francisco's gay bath houses in the early HIV era? Or would the equivalent be the elderly COVID patients being forced by Cuomo into eldercare facilities in New York?
It wouldn't bother me at all if Sullivan had sex with Fauci without a condom. Go for it.
Fame whore.
Go back to the bath houses.
In order to comply with "No Inside Dining" rules, a pizza restaurant in Oregon set up a tent in the parking lot for outdoor dining. Of course, being that it's winter and tends to get a bit chilly at times, the tent includes heavy clear plastic "wall/windows" to hold in the heat from propane space heaters.
So- they built a temporary plastic building to safely use in place of the permanent brick and glass one that's not safe (or so says the government, anyway). Is this insane, or what?
As of November 2020 there were 12 states with no mask mandate. My quick review doesn't show any significant difference with states with a mask mandate in terms of cases, hospitalizations or deaths.
Mask pussies
Gretchen Whitmer Requires Masks in Michigan Smoking Lounges ‘at All Times’
Michigan cigar and vaping lounges were caught off guard Monday afternoon by a Michigan Department of Health and Human Services memo effectively prohibiting smoking in their facilities.
The enforcement, according to the memo, was prompted by MDHHS efforts to curtail the spread of COVID-19. All smoking lounges in the state must require face masks be worn at all times. …
@Matt Sablan
OUT: Double Condom
In: Triple Condom
COMING: What do you mean you don't octuplecondom!?!
The problem with the condom analogy is that there are a lot of other STDs that are prevalent among the MSM community, and suppressing these is a public health issue. Having sex with strangers isn't as common as walking around in public.
Fauci the malignant elf was wrong on AIDS and he has been wrong ever since. There is a reason he never treated patients.
@Gusty Winds :
"What's with the double mask bullshit?"
I think it was at the inauguration, or some other event that some congress members were seen wearing two masks.
This led to some in the press making this a thing, to the point where they asked Fauci about it. Fauci essentially shrugged and said "I guess it would help", not realizing that it would be blown up as if he was advising such. He later formally made the statement that no recommendations as to double masking have been made.
Well no community had endured the Fauci phenomenon longer than those dealing with AIDS. Fauci fucked up the AIDS crisis. Flip flopped. Ignited basic science. Just like now. Just like with COVID, except he actually financed the lab that “accidentally” released this crisis on the world. Hell maybe he did develop AUDS with the CIA. Anything seems possible in Fauciworld.
Stop teh Santorum!
Tyranny masquerading as public safety.
It’s going to take a lot of public pushback to get the statists to relinquish some of that power. It needs to happen.
>>
Been saying this for a year.
It'll take mass (un)civil disobedience, particularly in the slave states of CA, IL, etc.
Free states like Florida are fine.
Despite the numerous times he has changed his word and direction on this topic. If he were my doctor, I would have found another very early on.
>>
I'd say thankfully "Dr." Fraudci has never practiced medicine. He's less of a doctor than I am, as at least I have a mastery of the science that has clearly eluded him.
However, I almost think it would have been better to have had 1-2 people sacrificed to his malpractice rather than 200,000,000.
Ethical quandary of the day.
As of November 2020 there were 12 states with no mask mandate. My quick review doesn't show any significant difference with states with a mask mandate in terms of cases, hospitalizations or deaths.
>>
As pointed out above, California has had all the mandates since the beginning.
California has collected MORE cumulative cases per 100k than Florida.
Again, this is nearly a 60,000,000 person-year set of data. The kind of data never, ever seen before in epidemiology. Literally, never.
It can be stated with no hyperbole:
Masks and lockdowns have ZERO effect on transmission of the 'Rona.
Of course this shouldn't be a surprise as the CDC itself stated as much in 2006 regarding the influenza, the disease the 'Rona most closely resembles.
Covid-19 -- A White Paper - To @RealDonaldTrump and @CDC*
Well, the analogy is apt. As with HIV, SARS-CoV-2 is very likely to spread through fecal transmission. In patient rooms, they discovered viable viruses, not fragments, in and around the other black hole... whore h/t NAACP, the toilet. Wearing anthying less than N95 and following strict protocol has been established through controlled studies since the early 80s to increase infections. And don't forget the goggles, the eyes are a window to contagion, viral (and social).
That said, from the beginning, there were early, effect, inexpensive, available, low-risk treatments (e.g. HCQ cocktail, Ivermectin protocol) to reduce viral viability and mitigate disease progression. Aside from the the Planned Parent/hood anomalies, and cross-contamination through wandering (e.g. "Green": reduce, reuse, recycle) medical professionals, Covid-19 did not, need not, produce excess deaths. Peak transmission, hospitalization, and deaths were recorded before implementing restrictive mandates in the spring and fall. Disease progression and death is correlated with co-morbidities correlated with age. While Granny was thrown under the bus, the rest of the population was pushed to the back of the bus.
Having sex with strangers isn't as common as walking around in public.
Have you been to San Francisco lately?
Fauci fucked up the AIDS crisis.
Not just Fauci. San Francisco was ground zero for the AIDS epidemic. The HIV virus was primarily spread through fecal transmission. The most vulnerable population was socially liberal trans/homosexual males.
Jersey Fled said...
As of November 2020 there were 12 states with no mask mandate. My quick review doesn't show any significant difference with states with a mask mandate in terms of cases, hospitalizations or deaths.
A not so quick review, if you are so inclined, shows a sharp increase in covid cases 2 weeks after a mandatory mask mandate in virtually every jurisdiction world-wide.
A few months ago I was in the hospital for a coronary procedure. I noticed that my nurses generally wore masks, but not always. I didn't wear mine unless someone else was in my room.
On one occasion I forgot to put my mask back on when a nurse came in. I asked if I needed to put it on.
She said "if you want to".
This was a very experienced, very competent nurse.
Someone needs to show me the study that quantifies the difference between one person wearing a mask and both people wearing a mask. I doubt that there is any.
I used to work for a company that made pollution control equipment for automobiles. The emphasis is always on source control. You don't put a catalytic converter on your automobile and then make everyone wear gas masks.
My positions has always been, if you want to wear a mask, wear it. But how much does your risk go down by making me wear one? I doubt that it is statistically significant.
I'd like to see evidence that proves me wrong.
And he was right. The Surgeon General was right.
They all changed their tunes when Birx freaked out over the exploding numbers in NYC. Then masks went from can't hurt, to helpful, to mandatory, to better than a vaccine, to two, maybe 3 masks are needed
>>
The Surgeon General being an actual treating physician who might have even remembered from the ancient days of medical school that masks worn by medical folks prevent transmission of bacteria, not really viruses.
And even then, there's actually zero evidence surgical facemasks do anything in the real world.
Does wearing a face mask reduce bacterial wound infection? A literature review
F McCluskey
PMID: 8850864
Abstract
Current practices of operating room management and sterile technique are direct descendants of the elaborate principles of antisepsis and asepsis set down by Lister. The surgical face mask has become an integral part of the uniform for theatre personnel since its introduction in an attempt to reduce the rate of clinical wound infections (von Mikulicz 1897). The Medical Research Council's (1968) recommendations on aseptic procedure advise donning a new mask for each patient and changing the mask part-way through long procedures (four hours or more). In most hospitals no one is allowed to enter an operating room without wearing a face mask. Anecdotal evidence in the author's own area of practice suggests that surgeons and other theatre personnel consider wearing face masks a nuisance but feel it is the "thing to do". Increasing costs of medical services is now a real problem. In one major teaching hospital in 1990, 10,000 pounds was spent on masks for theatre use (Leyland and McCloy 1993). Although the available clinical data suggests that the present generation of masks does not protect staff either from airborne bacteria or Hepatitis B virus (Ransjo 1986, Reingold 1988), theatre personnel may adopt self-protection as a reason for wearing a mask. It is not the intention of this literature review to examine self protection as a reason for wearing a face mask in theatre but to investigate whether masks do reduce bacterial infections in the postoperative patient.
In some ways the response to the AIDS epidemic is what gave us this mess: the inability of the government to target the main vector, the hedonistic aspects of the homosexual community, due to political fallout led to wasting money and time pushing protection to communities which weren't in danger, and billions spent playing catch-up later. No one every paid a price for it, especially not Fauci, and so they learned all the wrong lessons.
I'd say nothing has changed except the main vector being the elderly. There was no need to shutdown the economy, and we could have just given good n95 masks to the elderly that needed them, instead of causing a crisis and convincing people to buy near useless masks from Wuhan.
Speaking of mask and condom comparisons; imagine if condoms were as effective as the cheap blue surgical masks most people wear. No wonder a year later it is being suggested to double mask. Fortunately, COVID is not HIV.
Dat muddafuggin Fowchy. He don't give a shit.
"Andrew Sullivan" is correct about "public health officials" and their low for "Power". But the allure of "Power" is not limited to them but is standard fare for all people in Corporations, Bureaucracy, and Politics. We see it happen every day - just look at the two most public politicians Pelosi and McConnel. Just worthless power hungry human beings!
Browndog:
A not so quick review, if you are so inclined, shows a sharp increase in covid cases 2 weeks after a mandatory mask mandate in virtually every jurisdiction world-wide.
This is simply not true. Johns Hopkins has charts on their website that show the relationship between tightening and loosening mandates, and new cases on a state by state basis. They show no such correlation. In fact, what they show is that when cases go up, mandates get tightened. And when cases go down, mandates get relaxed. Plain and simple. And intuitively obvious. Tightening mandates does not result in a lowering of new cases, it follows an increase in new cases. Just as you would expect.
Meanwhile - Merrick Garland - who THANK GOD isn't on the Supreme Court- says that he knows nothing about the summer of 2020 and the leftwing violence and fire bombing of local federal buildings and police stations and other private businesses in places like Portland, Olympia, and Seattle etc...
theatre personnel may adopt self-protection as a reason for wearing a mask. It is not the intention of this literature review to examine self protection as a reason for wearing a face mask in theatre but to investigate whether masks do reduce bacterial infections in the postoperative patient.
I wore masks in surgery for 50 years but no one considered it self protection and no one thought viruses would be affected. In surgery where wound infection was particularly significant, ie joint replacement surgery where a foreign body was to be left behind, space suits and laminar flow rooms were used.
I have pretty much quit reading and commenting here because a few commenters who know nothing consider themselves such an authority as to accuse others. I do skim to see worthwhile items.
As of today, mandates and masks have not saved 28.3M cases (plus roughly another 120M infections) and 502K deaths.
The challenge competent journalists should be presenting to governors and "experts" is this: Given the infections and deaths that mandates and masks didn't prevent, tell us how many they did.
I predict: [crickets].
Plummeting case rates since the beginning of January is empirical evidence that all the mandates and masks were completely useless.
I wore masks in surgery for 50 years but no one considered it self protection and no one thought viruses would be affected. In surgery where wound infection was particularly significant, ie joint replacement surgery where a foreign body was to be left behind, space suits and laminar flow rooms were used.
>>
Weird how real physicians who actually treat patients think this way.
The fraudci "physician" who never treated a patient in his life, nor even contributed to any medical science, "thinks" otherwise.
so weird.
It's almost as if he just likes to be on TV spouting nonsense like the politician he is.
Masks were never about safety. They are about re-identification and obedience. It’s very visible so it falsely comforts those that buy into the crap that 1) the gov’t is going something, and 2) they are participating in the “solution”. It’s like wearing a t-shirt that says…”I’m and stupid woke liberal”.
Masks are also an easy thing to get the liberal high and mighty sheep to enforce on others at their local Costco. Release the Karens. We should just disperse the population of Madison, WI across the country to do the enforcement. Comes naturally to them.
Funniest thing, and one of the dumbest, is seeing people on Facebook who have a profile pictures of themselves wearing a mask. And it’s called FACEBOOK.
David UW.... I wore masks in surgery for 50 years but no one considered it self protection and no one thought viruses would be affected. In surgery where wound infection was particularly significant, ie joint replacement surgery where a foreign body was to be left behind, space suits and laminar flow rooms were used.
>> Weird how real physicians who actually treat patients think this way.
It’s too bad that more physicians that know this is all bullshit don’t speak up. But like the rest I’m sure they fear vilification and cancellation. Some are still in debt from Med School and have to keep their mouths shut.
I know a few physicians who took HCQ as a preventive measure during the spring 2020 when liberals insisted “it would kill you”. I asked them why not speak up? If it’s good for you, why not your patients and the rest of America.
The suggestion was completely lost on them. Soon after came the line dancing videos.
Masks are fine as part of a multi-layered pandemic response. We've seen that in the countries that have most successfully fought the Covid pandemic, like Taiwan and New Zealand. I read somewhere that universal masking reduces transmission rates by 2%, which doesn't sound like a lot, but that's compounded so it's actually significant. In any event, if you combine universal masking with testing, contact tracing, isolation and quarantine, social distancing, border control and selected lockdowns, you can do a lot to reduce the rate of Covid spread. Of course, once the pandemic is over and we've achieved some kind of herd immunity, masking should only be routine for people with symptoms.
We've seen that in the countries that have most successfully fought the Covid pandemic, like Taiwan and New Zealand
>>
Islands.
You realize they're islands?
>>
I read somewhere that universal masking reduces transmission rates by 2%, which doesn't sound like a lot, but that's compounded so it's actually significant.
>>
There is 60,000,000 person years of data showing that places with no mask mandates (FL) have FEWER infections than universal masking (CA) over the past 11 months.
>>In any event, if you combine universal masking with testing, contact tracing, isolation and quarantine, social distancing, border control and selected lockdowns, you can do a lot to reduce the rate of Covid spread.
>>
Argument from literally no evidence.
If you've seen the Larry Kramer documentary, he had a history with Fauci.
"An Open Letter to Dr. Anthony Fauci"
San Francisco Examiner, June 26, 1988
Larry Kramer
"You are responsible for all government funded AIDS treatment research. In the name of right, you make decisions that cost the lives of others. I call the decisions you are making acts of murder."
Anthony Fauci, you are a murderer and should not be the guest of honor at any event that reflects on the past decade of the AIDS crisis. Your refusal to hear the screams of AIDS activists early in the crisis resulted in the deaths of thousands of Queers. Your present inaction is causing today's increase in HIV infection outside of the Queer community. We are outraged that Project Inform, an organization that supposedly works on behalf of the infected community, would insult us by bringing you to our city. You can't hide the fact that you are nothing but a despicable Reagan-era holdover and drug company mouthpiece.
With 270,000 dead from AIDS and millions more infected with HIV, you should not be honored at a dinner. You should be put before a firing squad.
Clinical trials: government sanctioned mass murder of PWAs
Anthony Fauci, you are a murderer because you oversee government sponsored clinical trials that test and retest combinations of immunosuppressive, toxic therapies that kill people with HIV...Ten years of the plague has shown us that trying to kill the virus kills people with AIDS, and you, Dr. Fauci, know it.
How long will it take you to start focusing on the immune system, how to boost it and how to prevent the opportunistic infections that are killing people with AIDS? Even you admit that "the immune response against HIV is extremely powerful and is clearly more effective than any of the therapeutic approaches currently available in controlling virus replication." Still , you give your blessing to clinical trials of highly profitable toxins that destroy PWAs' already compromised immune systems.
CD4s and viral load: a marketing exec's wet dream
Anthony Fauci, you are a liar because you have known for years that CD4 counts are a travesty of a surrogate marker that, through drug company coercion, have been elevated to the status of "a standard." Now that everyone else knows it too, you and your corporate drug company cronies are urging researchers to foist another useless marker, peripheral blood viral load counts, on our frightened, desperate community...
Your scheme isn't too difficult to figure out; promote another invalid surrogate marker that has no relation to health or life expectancy of PWAs; develop a test that costs $200-$300 to measure this invalid marker; encourage the creation of more deadly drugs that effect this invalid marker; and then compare the pathetic results you get from these deadly drugs to the more pathetic results you got from AZT and other nukes. In the eyes of the government everybody wins. Companies that sell drugs and market tests get rich and PWAs who sacrifice their bodies in your trials of death are eliminated from the face of the earth.
The fact that your clinical trials aren't meant to save our lives is no secret...
Selling out: from "Murderer" to "Tony"
One thing that 10 years of the plague has taught us is how easily people and organizations can be bought off. You are one of those people, Dr. Fauci...
You are a pill-pushing pimp that cooperates with drug companies in forcing dangerous concoctions down the throats of a desperate community that is brainwashed into believing that taking a pill, any pill, will help them...
Ten years of hope? Fuck that. Try a decade of death and greed. Go back to Washington you bastard.
Motive for actions:
https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/07/07/hhs-dod-collaborate-novavax-produce-millions-covid-19-investigational-vaccine-doses-commercial-scale-manufacturing-demonstration-projects.html
"There is 60,000,000 person years of data showing that places with no mask mandates (FL) have FEWER infections than universal masking (CA) over the past 11 months."
A link to a peer reviewed study would be great. Miami, Ft Lauderdale, West Palm Beach, the densely populated areas of Florida have mask mandates. No place in Florida is as densely populated as LA or San Fransisco. What’s with your one size fits all reasoning here?
"Argument from literally no evidence.”
There is plenty of evidence, if you promise to look at it and discuss why you think it is wrong, I will be happy to link it.
Once you ease the mandates , which do have good evidence to support them BTW, to exempt the vaccinated, they will fall apart. it’s completely different than consensual sex, since you can’t get the consent of all of the people in whatever indoor public space you are in.
The very emotional response to masks is a dead giveaway that people don’t want to look at the actual evidence.
Timmy:
A link to a peer reviewed study would be great. Miami, Ft Lauderdale, West Palm Beach, the densely populated areas of Florida have mask mandates. No place in Florida is as densely populated as LA or San Fransisco. What’s with your one size fits all reasoning here?
>>
The data is freely available at the CDC.
The cumulative rate of CA infection is > than the cumulative rate of FL infections.
>>
There is plenty of evidence, if you promise to look at it and discuss why you think it is wrong, I will be happy to link it.
>>
No.
I've seen the primary data. That's what I use.
That's what I'm starting from.
All the other "articles" are interpretations and are bullshit.
I am sympathetic to the argument that it is a way for the government to demand submission, I have related the story of William Tell here before, where Tell was forced to shoot the apple off of his son’s head by the Habsburg viceroy because Tell refused to bow to a cap placed on a pole in the town square as a gesture of submission to the empire.
If the evidence that masks works did not exist, I would be right with you.
"Masks are fine as part of a multi-layered pandemic response. We've seen that in the countries that have most successfully fought the Covid pandemic, like Taiwan and New Zealand."
Oh, lord help us. What Taiwan and New Zealand have in common is that they are small islands with well controlled ports of entry. The same applies to Australia though it is a very large island- the ports of entry are well controlled. The same applied to Hawaii, by the way- the state with the lowest infection rate. If a country wasn't in a position to control that initial breakout from ports of entry, they failed in all their other endeavors to stop the virus- it really was that simple.
If the evidence that masks works did not exist, I would be right with you.
>>
That's not how it works.
The hypothesis is: Masking will reduce transmission.
Experiment: masks required in X place, not required in Y place.
1 year later
Is there a stat sig difference in transmission/infection?
No?
not only is there no difference, the difference favors no masks.
hypothesis rejected
Why does Biden Hate Texas?? WHERE is he?? WHY hasn't he gone there yet?? Too busy calling lids for the dayssssssss......Just imagine if this were Trump, and he didn't go!!!
“Timmy:”
Here we go, this is going to be a reasoned discourse, I can see that already.
"The cumulative rate of CA infection is > than the cumulative rate of FL infections.”
Once again, Florida has mask mandates in many counties, mostly the most densely populated, I know that because I live here. that’s just one objection to your interpretation of the raw data.
"All the other "articles" are interpretations and are bullshit.”
Including laboratory experiments measuring the efficacy of masks with respect to coronaviruses and other viruses? Including peer reviewed observational studies of the relative infection rates of jurisdictions with mandates and without? As everyone can see you refuse to examine the actual evidence and react emotionally to any suggestion that you might be wrong, so you avoid any evidence out of fear you might be proven to be wrong.
David above is absolutely correct- there is no detectable signal anywhere for when mandates are imposed and a decrease in infection rate and mortality. Literally no signal at all.
The reason could easily be that the masks people use and the ways they use them are not the effective ways to use them, but the Danish study suggested strongly that even if you gave them masks made of the proper material and training in how to use them, they still don't work.
Like I have written many times- if you want to wear a mask, by all means wear one- I don't fucking care what you put over your face, just leave me the fuck alone.
David, that’s rhetoric, not logic, even though it *looks* like logic. You have no idea how statistical analysis works, and your simplistic view of the problem suggests that you might be a good guy to invite to a poker game.
" Literally no signal at all.”
Once again, this is outright false. But once again, we have a guy who uses bullying tactics as a way to perform statistical analysis. At this point I think that anybody with an open mind can see you for what you are.
Tim,
Where exactly do you think the infections in Florida have occurred, and the deaths for the most part? In exactly those counties and cities that have the mandates. This is true in all the states without mandated masking, by the way- the places with the local mandates are exactly those places with the highest infection rates and deaths. At a first pass analysis, it would seem masking is counterproductive, not beneficial,
Once again, Florida has mask mandates in many counties, mostly the most densely populated, I know that because I live here. that’s just one objection to your interpretation of the raw data.
>>
And there are no mask mandates in many counties.
And I'm pretty sure from spot checking the FL map, the non Miami, non masking counties have lower infection rates than Miami.
But masks work. And timmy is an honorable man.
>>
Including laboratory experiments measuring the efficacy of masks with respect to coronaviruses and other viruses? >
>>
Mannequins and aerosols is not higher quality data than SIXTY MILLION person years.
>>Including peer reviewed observational studies of the relative infection rates of jurisdictions with mandates and without?
>>
Peer reviewed? Look at the data yourself. CA>>FL.
done.
>>
s everyone can see you refuse to examine the actual evidence and react emotionally to any suggestion that you might be wrong, so you avoid any evidence out of fear you might be proven to be wrong.
>>
1) You can't prove me wrong; as I am correct.
2) The burden is on the maskers to "prove" masking works. Spoiler: It does not.
@ Michael K
Just ignore them. I think most commenters here appreciate your knowledgeable, experienced well-written insights.
If you stay away, they win and the rest of us lose.
Michael K, 10:27:
"In surgery where wound infection was particularly significant, ie joint replacement surgery where a foreign body was to be left behind, space suits and laminar flow rooms were used."
I didn't know this. Thank you. And I second Bob Boyd at 11:23, emphatically.
They decided on the mask protocols social distancing before there was a single known case.
They decided on the mask protocols social distancing before there was a single known case.
Intuitive, emotionally-appealing science mandates to earn democratic favor, enable democratic gerrymandering, mitigate legal liability, and collateral damage.
"In surgery where wound infection was particularly significant, ie joint replacement surgery where a foreign body was to be left behind, space suits and laminar flow rooms were used."
Postoperative wound infections and surgical face masks: a controlled study
From one of the links above- I garnered this tweet which is mostly true. As with any general rule, there will be a few exceptions.
I'm all for masks.
I'm totally against shutting down schools and the economy.
@tim in vermont: A link to a peer reviewed study would be great. Miami, Ft Lauderdale, West Palm Beach, the densely populated areas of Florida have mask mandates. No place in Florida is as densely populated as LA or San Fransisco. What’s with your one size fits all reasoning here?
I know, tim, doing science without a license is just the worst.
I have read your peer reviewed studies. It is clear you haven't.
What you are missing is the evidence staring you right in the face, for which you do not need a degree in The Science.
What is your hypothesis for the empirical fact that case rates have been plummeting across the US since around the beginning of January?
I really want Fauci to test out 'The New Duct Tape Womder Mask' live on national TV so we can all see how effective it is. This is the one that covers your entire face to make sure nothing gets in and nothing gets out. About 30 minutes with the mask on his face live on TV would be great.
He should be lauged off the planet. He has changes positions so many times, well damn he ought to be running for public office. In Norht Korea or China - they deserve him.
@n.n.
Thanks for that link. Incredible!
“Including laboratory experiments measuring the efficacy of masks with respect to coronaviruses and other viruses? Including peer reviewed observational studies of the relative infection rates of jurisdictions with mandates and without? As everyone can see you refuse to examine the actual evidence and react emotionally to any suggestion that you might be wrong, so you avoid any evidence out of fear you might be proven to be wrong.”
Haha, try to get him to provide a working link to prove his assertions. Good luck.
“But once again, we have a guy who uses bullying tactics as a way to perform statistical analysis. At this point I think that anybody with an open mind can see you for what you are.”
Indeed. He proclaims to be the expert yet cannot or will not provide the proof he is indeed what he proclaims. All you’ll get from this guy is lots of yelling in ALL CAPS.
All the mitigating efforts depend on them being followed. None of the mask wearing or social distancing was followed strictly so that Covid was still allowed to spread rapidly and widely. If there had been no mitigation at all, the numbers of deaths and hospitalizations would’ve been even worse.
Inga, do you have an explanation for the sudden plummeting of cases across the US in which masks play any role at all?
I'm guessing that, like previously, you will not have a substantive answer.
An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19
“Conclusion
Our review of the literature offers evidence in favor of widespread mask use as source control to reduce community transmission: Nonmedical masks use materials that obstruct particles of the necessary size; people are most infectious in the initial period postinfection, where it is common to have few or no symptoms (45, 46, 141); nonmedical masks have been effective in reducing transmission of respiratory viruses; and places and time periods where mask usage is required or widespread have shown substantially lower community transmission.
The available evidence suggests that near-universal adoption of nonmedical masks when out in public, in combination with complementary public health measures, could successfully reduce Re
to below 1, thereby reducing community spread if such measures are sustained. Economic analysis suggests that mask wearing mandates could add 1 trillion dollars to the US GDP (32, 34).
Models suggest that public mask wearing is most effective at reducing spread of the virus when compliance is high (39). We recommend that mask use requirements are implemented by governments, or, when governments do not, by organizations that provide public-facing services. Such mandates must be accompanied by measures to ensure access to masks, possibly including distribution and rationing mechanisms so that they do not become discriminatory. Given the value of the source control principle, especially for presymptomatic people, it is not sufficient for only employees to wear masks; customers must wear masks as well.
It is also important for health authorities to provide clear guidelines for the production, use, and sanitization or reuse of face masks, and consider their distribution as shortages allow. Clear and implementable guidelines can help increase compliance, and bring communities closer to the goal of reducing and ultimately stopping the spread of COVID-19.
When used in conjunction with widespread testing, contact tracing, quarantining of anyone that may be infected, hand washing, and physical distancing, face masks are a valuable tool to reduce community transmission. All of these measures, through their effect on Re
, have the potential to reduce the number of infections. As governments exit lockdowns, keeping transmissions low enough to preserve health care capacity will be critical until a vaccine can be developed.“
Idiot Inga bloviates without looking at actual data.
All has been provided to idiot Inga, but she will claim it has not.
Idiot Inga will then google lying interpretations of bullshit studies rather than look at primary data.
But Inga is an stupid person who cannot read primary data.
Idiot Inga will then fault you for her own stupidity.
Bark seal, Bark.
Idiot Inga doesn't realize that PNAS is not a peer-reviewed publication.
Idiot Inga doesn't realize that the first 'Rona "study" her link reviews shows no actual difference in transmission at home between mask wearers and non mask wearers.
Idiot Inga not only cannot evaluate primary data, but idiot Inga cannot evaluate "scientific" articles.
Idiot Inga merely a google scraper.
Bark seal, Bark.
Q&A: Why are COVID-19 cases declining in the US? Healio asked several infectious disease experts about these and other issues. They agreed that there is no one reason for the decline in cases.
Since I’m not an infectious disease expert, nor do I play one on TV, here is what some actual experts said.
320Busdriver:
Read Karl Denninger's "Covid-19 -- A White Paper - To @RealDonaldTrump and @CDC". He covers a lot of ground, factually, and with attribution to reputable sources (e.g. practicing medical doctors, NIH scientists, established science), on many topics, not limited to Covid-19, with a balanced presentation of practical, rational, and moral.
Idiot Inga also can't look up a PubMed ID number and title.
Idiot Inga thinks Google is a library
Idiot Inga is a google scraper.
Bark seal, Bark
@n.n..
That’s the link I referred to. I have read much of it and will pass along to those with brains. Appreciate it!
@ Michael K
Just ignore them. I think most commenters here appreciate your knowledgeable, experienced well-written insights.
Yes, knowledge and experience are complementary. Dr. Michael K comments with both, a unique and valuable member of the community.
Blogger Lurker21 said...It's true about health authorities craving power, but Andrew should really rethink the analogy.
--
Well..he HAS been fucking with us.
..and those pesky secondary side effects..like death of live music industry.
I wonder if Da Fauch stage dived, whether a hole would open.
Why have the NIH, CDC, FDA et al continued to suppress information on the use of Ivermectin for prophylactic and early treatment of covid.
See Dr Pierre Kory Senate testimony in Dec. plead the case to save lives as “ mountains of evidence” on its successful use have been compiled. YouTube has censored this video taped in Dec in the US Senate...why?
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4929855/user-clip-dr-pierre-kory-president-flccc-alliance-testifies-senate-committee-homeland-security
It’s use is also covered in n.n.’s Karl Denninger link above and supports its use.
Inga:
Maybe you missed this part.
Cochrane (7) and the World Health Organization (8) both point out that, for population health measures, we should not generally expect to be able to find controlled trials, due to logistical and ethical reasons, and should therefore instead seek a wider evidence base. This issue has been identified for studying community use of masks for COVID-19 in particular (9). Therefore, we should not be surprised to find that there is no RCT for the impact of masks on community transmission of any respiratory infection in a pandemic.
Only one observational study has directly analyzed the impact of mask use in the community on COVID-19 transmission. The study looked at the reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in Beijing households by face mask use (10). It found that face masks were 79% effective in preventing transmission, if they were used by all household members prior to symptoms occurring. The study did not look at the relative risk of different types of mask.
No RCT Studies on the impact of masks on community transmission...
Only only one observational study, in China, which dealt with transmission within households.
Other studies have found that only approximately 18% of household members will be infected in any circumstances.
I don't feel like an endless war of references right now, but just wanted to point out that your own reference isn't particularly compelling.
Remember: my point is that if you want to wear a mask, have at it. I don't see evidence that making me wear one makes you statistically any safer.
DavidUW: "Idiot Inga also can't look up a PubMed ID number and title."
Inga's entire Brand is the posting of links to others words that she neither reads nor understands and is simply assuming that what she linked makes some sort of salient point and buttressing some larger argument, which it never does.
Inga loves headlines though.
@Inga: Your is a year old.. Moreover, having eliminated all the weasel words — suggests, could, etc — what is left?
What should be there but isn't, is something along the lines of: In a population of N, over a time T, a universal masking population will have X Covid infections, while a non-masking population will have Y infections. And instead of relying on a mish-mash of "synthesizing the relevant literature", why hasn't anyone looked at the relative infection rates of dental hygienists and beauticians?
I also read what the actual experts said.. Two things struck me.
First, I would think that having some reasonably rigorous hypothesis about the nationwide, synchronous plummeting of cases would be real high on their do-list. Doesn't appear they've given it any thought whatsoever.
Second, they seem never to have heard of Occam's Razor: the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions explains the phenomena is most likely to be correct. Every one of the experts was scattering assumptions as far as the eye can see while completely ignoring the complete lack of correlation between their assumptions and what needed explaining.
Which is why I'm asking you, what is your hypothesis for what needs explaining?
None of the mask wearing or social distancing was followed strictly so that Covid was still allowed to spread rapidly and widely.
Pure, unadulterated bullshit.
We've been under a state-wide mask mandate for eight months and it hasn't made a damn bit of difference. Shut up.
“Travel is back to a baseline after lots of holiday travel”
That’s complete BS
I will tell you that the airports are looking like pre covid levels, except for maybe certain CA hubs where fear and mandates suppress travel. ORD, SEA, are jam packed right now. People are letting it rip.
First, I would think that having some reasonably rigorous hypothesis about the nationwide, synchronous plummeting of cases would be real high on their do-list. Doesn't appear they've given it any thought whatsoever.
>>
Because the obvious answer is the one they are trying desperately not to admit--the USA, having gone through a full cycle of seasons for this respiratory virus, has reached herd immunity for the most part. (since it established itself in later winter last year, we didn't get a full winter of infections to cycle through).
And these bullshit "scientists" will then bemoan the lack of trust in their bullshit.
@Inga: None of the mask wearing or social distancing was followed strictly so that Covid was still allowed to spread rapidly and widely. If there had been no mitigation at all, the numbers of deaths and hospitalizations would’ve been even worse.
You are question begging.
Here is CA's case curve.. California has been all in on masks and mandates. So what you are saying is that had CA done nothing, the peak would have been higher, or it would have happened sooner?
The former is flat contradicted by the curve itself. Cases can't be plummeting if a large proportion of the population remains susceptible.
The latter, if true, doesn't change the number of hospitalizations, only their timing. However, given the strong correlation across the US with cases, seasons, and climate zone within the US, the peak has very little room to happen sooner.
Finally, compare CA with Britain, which has undergone very severe lockdowns. How the heck is it that the UK peaked almost the same day as CA, which was less severe, and ID, which has been the opposite of severe?
JAMA Insights
February 10, 2021
Effectiveness of Mask Wearing to Control Community Spread of SARS-CoV-2
February 21st, 2021 Why Are COVID-19 Case Numbers Dropping?
Hey Skipper: "You are question begging."
Inga doesnt know what that means.
JAMA mask study:
1) References bullshit China household as listed above.
2) References uncontrolled bullshit (i.e. "masked salon workers" --- no comparison to unmasked)
3) References a bunch of bullshit aerosol lab "studies" that do not reflect real people in the real world.
4) References studies that claim a "0-2%" reduction in cases that would have otherwise occurred, in other words, no real effect. No real control.
Idiot Inga can't read.
Idiot Inga just googles shit.
Bark seal Bark.
I've been tuning out Dr. Fauci for many months now. The man has either lied repeatedly to the American people or been inexcusably mistaken in his pronouncements, or both, but he has suffered no real repercussions.
Who elected him?
In the early stages of the pandemic, it felt like people wanted him to be handed dictatorial powers over nearly every aspect of life. Trump would have been impeached (or worse) if he'd sidelined Fauci and disregarded his "recommendations." Not surprisingly, given his limited mandate as an unelected NIH bureaucrat, the economic and social damage of lockdowns did not factor much into his thinking.
In any event, to me he lost all credibility with his lies. His defenders tell me, "but his lies were 'noble lies' so it's OK." Noble or not, his lies were exposed. You just can't take at face value the things he says anymore even if you wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt that his intentions are pure. You may think you're intelligent enough to interpret his diktats, to understand what he's really saying, but what about the people who are not as smart as you but get the feeling that Fauci is a liar? They'll just ignore him (and other public health officials too). That should work well.
We're not "following the science" as the new-fangled phrase goes. Science is - by its defining characteristic (and especially when grappling with a novel challenge) - not introduced by the definite pronoun. Science has - historically - died when debate, analysis, re-analysis, and questioning has been stifled by those who had power to proclaim: "this is settled."
So-called "experts" are making pronouncements - and enforcing edicts - that have cost many people their livelihoods and many others their lives. These "experts" are not "following the science" - because they would welcome challenge, scrutiny, and debate if they were true scientists. In other words, the use of the phrase "following the science" (if it is used to mean: this is beyond debate) is a tell: it tells us that the users of it - are not serious, and they know nothing about the principles of evidentiary science. For true scientists, those types of phrases are extraneous. You don't have to march around under a banner flying emblazoned: "We're following the science" if you are indeed doing serious research, and inviting challenge and peer scrutiny.
Masks are - by-in-large - symbolic gestures that say, "Hey, we don't really know what we're doing, but we're doing something." Many of these "experts" need to learn the applicability and relevance of this reversal (in their cases): "Don't just do something: stand there!"
And quarantining the healthy - while certainly a novelty - has put our 21st century "science" in a 500-year tailspin: while at the same time introducing (dare I say, mainlining) the insidious notion that we can live our lives with zero risk.
@Inga: Why are COVID-19 Case Numbers Dropping
From the link:
2. Herd immunity. Nearly 28 million Americans have had a confirmed COVID-19 diagnosis reported to the CDC. This represents only a fraction of the true cases — especially the mild or asymptomatic ones — and the CDC estimates that only 1 in 4.6 infections are reported. That could bring us up to half the US population with some degree of natural immunity to infection.
Not mentioned, but also true: something around 40% of the US population isn't susceptible in the first place.
Which means 160-ish million people are susceptible, and at least 140 million have already been infected (despite masks and mandates), leaving fewer than 30 million remaining susceptible people. From the virus's point of view, there are about ¼ as many available targets within its radius as there were on Sep 1, when the seasonal surge got under way. Oh, and as a side note, abut 80% of jabs are going into arms that don't need them.
That's all the explanation required. The only thing impeding a respiratory virus is the virus itself.
“That's all the explanation required. The only thing impeding a respiratory virus is the virus itself.”
I agree it may be a big part of it, but I don’t agree it’s “all the explanation required”. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket.
One thing you NEVER saw when HIV/AIDS first hit the scene was even considering telling the at-risk people to "socially distance" and avoid the high risk behaviors.
“I stress the importance of being humble about not knowing why the cases are dropping simply because reliance on one of these factors over another could get us into trouble. For example, this week Dr. Marty Makary, writing in the Wall Street Journal, posited that we are already close to herd immunity, making this bold prediction:
There is reason to think the country is racing toward an extremely low level of infection. As more people have been infected, most of whom have mild or no symptoms, there are fewer Americans left to be infected. At the current trajectory, I expect Covid will be mostly gone by April, allowing Americans to resume normal life.
Warning — if anyone tells you with confidence that they know precisely why cases are dropping, and that they have an accurate crystal ball showing that by April we’ll be safely out of this pandemic — please view it with the appropriate scientific skepticism it deserves.”
@Inga: Effectiveness of Mask Wearing to Control Community Spread of SARS-CoV-2
In recent laboratory experiments, multilayer cloth masks were more effective than single-layer masks, blocking as much as 50% to 70% of exhaled small droplets and particles.
Fine. But left completely unaddressed is the size comparison between aerosols (which is what pre- and asymptomatic people emit) and droplets/particles?
An even more glaring omission is implication that blocking 50-70% of exhaled small droplets and particles (let's run with the assumption that also decreases emitted viruses by the same amount) reduces risk of transmission by the same amount.
Nonsense. Bollocks on stilts. It is safe to say that Winnie Xi Flu is very contagious. What decrease of emitted particles is sufficient to decrease the likelihood of infection? Put another way, assume two people wearing masks reducing emitted viral particles by 70% each, one infected, and the other susceptible.
How much has the likelihood of transmission been reduced? 70%, 91%, or zero?
I don't know what the real answer is, but if fewer than 10% of exhaled viral particles are sufficient to infect a susceptible person, then 70% effective masks are completely useless.
So far, I haven't found anything that addresses this fundamental issue, which is why none of them can begin to answer to what degree masks will reduce daily infection rates over some period.
I'm still interested in what your hypothesis is for explaining a syncrhonous reduction in case rates over a wide spread of mandates and mask usage.
@Inga: I agree it may be a big part of it, but I don’t agree it’s “all the explanation required”. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket.
Remember what I said about Occam's Razor.
An unimpeded virus running out of susceptible targets completely explains the phenomena of widespread plummeting of case rates.
Warning — if anyone tells you with confidence that they know precisely why cases are dropping, and that they have an accurate crystal ball showing that by April we’ll be safely out of this pandemic — please view it with the appropriate scientific skepticism it deserves.”
Back in October, in a thread you probably read (and yes, I'm too lazy to look for it), I predicted C-19 would be approaching background noise by mid-March. And it isn't as if I was the only one. Also, don't ignore that saying why cases are dropping is what is left over after saying what hasn't caused them to drop.
As for appropriate scientific skepticism, if only that was true for mandates and masks, or indeed for the Scientifical predictions that were inundating us this time last year.
“I'm still interested in what your hypothesis is for explaining a syncrhonous reduction in case rates over a wide spread of mandates and mask usage.”
I have no single hypothesis. I don’t know for certain.I suspect it’s a number of reasons that have been discussed in the articles I’ve linked to.
@Inga: You have been all in on masks, and quite derisive of those who found them useless.
There is now a whole year's worth of empirical data. What data supports your enthusiasm for masks?
Can anyone find a peer reviewed study before 2020 that showed masks were useful in stopping hte spread of a virus?
I know there are a lot of studies done before 2020 that showed masks were not particularly useful or effective.
What was magical about 2020 that made it so masks were suddenly effective?
Can anyone find a peer reviewed study before 2020 that showed masks were useful in stopping hte spread of a virus?
>>
Nope.
Or better:
1) No studies (see above) show that masks stop viral infection even in a surgical setting.
2) No studies show in real world practice that masks stop the community spread of a virus. For example, a controlled study in college kids in 2006-2007: Neither face mask use and hand hygiene nor face mask use alone was associated with a significant reduction in the rate of ILI cumulatively. (n=1437). In the household setting in 2007-2008 flu season: Hand hygiene with or without facemasks seemed to reduce influenza transmission, but the differences compared with the control group were not significant
3) The CDC itself had published a summary of its findings on the great flu pandemics of the past 100 years. It specifically stated that: Travel bans, closing schools and such made no difference.
Fauci is a fraud!
Blogger Bob Boyd said...
@ Michael K
Just ignore them. I think most commenters here appreciate your knowledgeable, experienced well-written insights.
If you stay away, they win and the rest of us lose.
Thanks. I tend to engage with trolls and negative commenters and need to avoid that. Today, I drove from Orange County to Acton to pick up a new dog and got home in Tucson after 11 hours total driving. Saw my grand kids and that is far more important.
I do skim comments for the good ones. I really need to ignore the usual suspects and the best way to do that is limit myself to skimming. Chicagoboyz is more my speed.
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