২২ ডিসেম্বর, ২০২০
"The man and woman never did settle in, and as Flight 462 began to taxi out to a runway, the man stood up, ignoring a flight attendant’s order to sit, saying that he had post-traumatic stress disorder..."
"A short time later... the plane shudder[ed] to a stop.... The man had forced open a cabin door, activating an emergency slide, and then he, his female companion and their [large service] dog slid their way out of the plane, officials said.... This was not the first time a panicky passenger has pulled such a maneuver at a New York-area airport, but neither Delta, the F.A.A. nor the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which operates La Guardia, could say on Monday just how unusual it was for someone to make such an escape... [R]ecently, a traveler aboard a Florida-bound flight at Newark Liberty International Airport fled through an emergency exit and down an inflatable slide while the plane was still at the gate in February 2018.... yelling that he did not belong on the plane because it was not his flight...."
ADDED: These cases seem ridiculous, but claustrophobia is a real anxiety disorder. Wikipedia says: "Being enclosed or thinking about being enclosed in a confined space can trigger fears of not being able to breathe properly, and running out of oxygen.... Most claustrophobic people who find themselves in a room without windows consciously know that they aren't in danger, yet these same people will be afraid, possibly terrified to the point of incapacitation, and many do not know why." It says here that 5 to 10% of people have severe claustrophobia, so the wonder is that it is so rare to see anyone panicking on a plane. Perhaps every plane has passengers who are experiencing panic but — "terrified to the point of incapacitation" — nothing shows on the outside and taking action — like opening the emergency slide — is not an option.
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১৪৮টি মন্তব্য:
"...and their dog?" - my reaction
Only that flight? Or dozens (hundreds?) of flights? People doing this should spend at least as much time in jail as a burglar who stole the amount of money these people cost the other passengers and the system.
There are drugs for this.
They want a piper cub. You can fly it with the door open.
I'm with mezzrow. At least it wasnt a horse, it might have broken a leg on the slide.
George Floyd's claustrophobia allowed him to sit in the front seat of a car without problems, but not in the back seat.
The passengers seated in the exit door do get extra leg room. But they cannot be “handicapped” so they can wrestle open the door. Now they will also have to be black belts to defend the door Life goes on.
If you are claustrophobic....don't effing fly on a plane. Period.
I don't care what imagined or even real issue you have, when you pull stunts like these, you deserve to go to jail. Enjoy the claustrophobia there. At least the food will be marginally better than on the airline.
Attendant: You know you're in an exit row.
Me: Yes.
Attendant: Do you know how to operate the door?
Me: Yes.
Attendant: Do you have any disabilities that would prevent you from doing this?
Me: No.
Attendant: Do you have any questions?
Me: Can I practice?
Can we bill them for the damage to the plane (e.g. new emergency slide and maintenance/repair) plus business interruption to the plane abs crew plus all the delay and pain/suffering to all the other passengers?
Let’s call it seven-figure anxiety attack.
If you don’t change the incentives, you will get more of this.
That is some weird ass shit right there. When I was traveling for work, over the past 10 years or so especially, I flew in and out of EWR and LGA weekly. Saw plenty of odd things happen but never anything so bizarre as that. The most common was a drunk or overly medicated person acting up.
And, yeah, "service dog" struck me funny too. Apparently not an emotional support animal for claustrophobia.
Why didn't the passengers subdue him? I used to keep a close eye on the doors when the flight started.
I hear Amtrak may be making a comeback.
ndspinelli said...
There are drugs for this.
A sedative should be an option. Passengers who feel like this may be an issue should have them prepared before they get on the plane.
Or some other mitigation.
Or they should just drive. Systems cannot deal with garbage like this.
I understand how someone like this feels. Sitting inside military vehicles driving around in the dark stuffed full of people that get too hot inside did more than make me uncomfortable.
But you deal with it.
Easy, DBQ. Claustrophobia, especially around planes, and smaller “regional” planes in particular, is more prevalent than you might think. Including yours truly. I once had to talk a flight attendant into letting me off a plane just after they had closed the doors.
But even though the fear is incapacitating, the vast majority of us would never try to open the exit door or anything like that.
A little compassion, please.
Did you see the recent case of a crazy man who gained access to LAS McCarren airport, probably via jumping a fence? He then approached a taxiing 737 ( company I work for) and then was able to climb up onto the wing where he spent quite a bit of time doing all sorts of insane acts until LEO’s approached on the wing. He then tried scaling the winglet and promptly fell to the tarmac. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, apparently. Video follows.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-las-vegas-airport-climbs-wing-plane-taxiing/story?id=74704847
And by the way, if you’re ever on a conveyance and your neighbor appears to be close to freaking out (anecdotally, I think it’s more prevalent among men), a little kindness and pleasant chit-chat can go a long way.
Mattman26 said...
And by the way, if you’re ever on a conveyance and your neighbor appears to be close to freaking out (anecdotally, I think it’s more prevalent among men), a little kindness and pleasant chit-chat can go a long way.
+1
Santa Claustrophobia.
The New York Post reports the PTSD stemmed from a jail stint on robbery charges.
Claustrophobia is no joke, and it can come on later in life. I never suffered from it as a younger person: I could scuba dive, jam myself into tight spaces without anxiety and didn't even know what a panic attack was. Then a couple years ago I had to get an MRI. The tech asked me if I was claustrophobic, offering a sedative when I said it was my first MRI. I demurred, which was a mistake. I lasted about 15 seconds in the tube, as the panic set in as soon as I started retracting into it, and I was mashing the panic button before the capsule was even closed. So apparently there's adult-onset claustrophobia, and according to the tech, it's not terribly unusual for people to discover their claustrophobia as I did while getting their first MRI.
"A total of 5798 MRI reports of 4821 patients were evaluated. A total of 95 patients (1.97%) suffered from claustrophobia and 59 (1.22%) prematurely terminated the examination due to claustrophobia. The incidence of ptMRI [prematurely terminated] was higher in women than men (no statistical significance)."
"Total point prevalence of any specific phobia was 19.9% (26.5% for females and 12.4% for males)."
a little kindness and pleasant chit-chat can go a long way.
Like in that Airplane documentary
320: Was William Shatner in the plane watching the guy out of the window?
Perhaps many with this disorder do not willingly board planes or MRI tubes.
Lucien
Rod Sterling.
...and as Flight 462 began to taxi out to a runway
Like in that zombie documentary: Fear the Walking Dead: Flight 462
I recently had to have CT and MRI scans (surprise!) and was really braced for an uncomfortable experience. Maybe it was just in contrast to the overall hospital experience but it was more boring and uncomfortable-lying-on-plastic and hearing hard-to-understand-directions.
However, I am not bothered by small spaces - I dislike crowds instead.
-XC
Can this happen while the plane is up in the air?
And by the way, if you’re ever on a conveyance and your neighbor appears to be close to freaking out (anecdotally, I think it’s more prevalent among men), a little kindness and pleasant chit-chat can go a long way.
And if that doesn't work, choking them out with your forearm with make the trip more pleasant. Reapply, if necessary.
Mattman26 said...Easy, DBQ. Claustrophobia, especially around planes, and smaller “regional” planes in particular, is more prevalent than you might think.
Sorry if you think I have no compassion. BUT..if you have a phobia that is so debilitating that you must pull stunts like the couple(and their dog who was innocent) on the plane then...don't put yourself into those situations. Or..get some therapy and learn to cope.
If you are so afraid of the water and know you will freak out..don't go on a fishing boat and then ruin it for everyone else by freaking out and making them go back to shore (this happened to me and it ruined the trip for everyone!). Take a literal Chill Pill and get on the plane or boat. Have some compassion for others. Don't inflict yourself on them like these people did.
Mild cases. Sure. A little comfort and compassion. Hand holding. Distracting can go a long way. Everyone is afraid sometimes.
I have phobias too. High ledges, cliffs, a steep drop off, climbing tall ladders among some including some claustrophobia (no cave tours for me!). I know what they are and don't do those things (if I can avoid them).
Sometimes people just wake up wanting to be pissed. I understand being tired of bullshit but come on. I assure you resident JAIL!!!!! MILLION DOLLAR FINES!!!! RUIN THEIR LIVES!!!!!!! people that these poor schmucks didn't get up that morning and decide to have some fun at the airline's expense and y'alls LET'S TEACH THEM A LESSON!!!!! is pointlessly punitive.
Sometimes a person's brain doesn't work right and weird shit happens. Can we just roll with it? I strongly suspect the airlines can handle it, just like they do every time some weirdo throws a wrench in the works. This isn't the first time. I also suspect you people have been given grace in your fuckups in your lives; maybe you can extend the same to others whose actions didn't even affect you directly.
Frankly, Darrell, there have been times I wished someone could clobber me on the head with a mallet.
>>Can this happen while the plane is up in the air?
Generally, no. The doors are designed to seal and open inwards. The cabin is pressurized and the air outside the plane is at a much lower pressure, so you have tons of force pushing the door closed at altitude. You'd have to pull against that to open it.
>>Can this happen while the plane is up in the air?
Generally, no. The doors are designed to seal and open inwards. The cabin is pressurized and the air outside the plane is at a much lower pressure, so you have tons of force pushing the door closed at altitude. You'd have to pull against that to open it.
I wonder what life is like for MRI technicians. I had an MRI once and I just did it and didn't react and got complimented effusively for my excellent behavior. I had to think what's going on with other people?
" The cabin is pressurized and the air outside the plane is at a much lower pressure, so you have tons of force pushing the door closed at altitude."
But what if it's just 100 feet off the ground? No safeguard then...
@I Have Misplaced My Pants - would you compromise on a moderate ass-beating?
DBQ, you’re one of my favorites around here. I don’t think you have no compassion; I was just encouraging you to apply it here.
And really we probably don’t disagree. If you’ve got this problem to the point that you couldn’t stop yourself from opening an exit door, then yes, you should stay off planes.
@I Have Misplaced My Pants - would you compromise on a moderate ass-beating?
If my toddler -- probably hungry and cranky and tired of the plane -- and I were among the pax who were stuck for some amount of time while they sorted this sort of thing out, I would accept a large gift card to a high end day spa as an apology ......
@Pants - Heh, we're talking what $1,000 to $1,500 here? Oh, "high-end"! Thousands more. All told, a hefty amount of atonement if everyone on the plane is paid off.
@althouse: But what if it's just 100 feet off the ground? No safeguard then...
At engine runup (I'm working on memory here, 320 will set me straight if I have it wrong), the cabin pressurizes to ambient plus 0.5 PSI.
Say the emergency exit door is 3 feet on a side. That is — umm, carry the nine, subtract a five — 1296 square inches, which means 648 pounds of load on the door.
It isn't going anywhere.
Oh, the horrors of air travel! ;-)
rhhardin suggests: They want a piper cub. You can fly it with the door open.
As a passenger in a Cub I feel like I'm falling out when it banks, even when the door is firmly shut.
I'm slightly claustrophobic and recently due to medical crappola had to have many! MRI CAT and PET scans.
I don't like the tube, but as long as there is light coming in from above my head and I can roll my eyes up and see that there is an exit...mentally, I can handle it. It is only going to be for a short while. Suck it up DBQ!!
HOWEVER...because of Covid and the Mask Nazi's plus the fact that I have been tested and assume that the Hospital/Facility people are also tested and the place is sanitized (and at this point I don't GAF)...I refused to wear a mask in the machines. That was a bridge too far. I want to BREATHE.
If you want the thousands and tens of thousands of dollars that they are going to bill my insurance, you will damned well let me not wear a mask.
The MRI experience was actually pretty nice because the MRI machine is loud, they offered the option of headphones to listen to music while I was to lay perfectly still. I chose Soft Jazz and almost fell asleep 😑
They couldn’t get boozed up so there was no hope. Flying has become miserable.
Dan the man - of course. We all know some nut job would have tried it by now, anyway.
Can this happen while the plane is up in the air?
It's a lot harder to get the dog to come with you.
"It says here that 5 to 10% of people have severe claustrophobia, so the wonder is that it is so rare to see anyone panicking on a plane"
Bullshit. A phobia is a serious thing, not conversation starter, a person with a phobia has a serious mental disorder that makes it difficult for that person to live a normal life (so says the DSM).
The DSM also says that the number of people in the US affected by any kind of phobia (not just "severe claustrophobia") is "about 19 million," which is 5% of the population.
People are crazy enough without making up even more ways for them to be crazy.
Take a train, for heaven's sake.
I have MRI only claustrophobia. I scuba, spelunk, etc. A happy pill, sleep mask and earplugs makes it easy.
Since the face diapers have metallic nose bridge, they forced me against my constitutionally mandated rights to be masked 24/7 during the Covid panic. I reluctantly removed my mask under protest before going into the tube. Then I coughed on the technician when I got out.
Ann Althouse said...
I wonder what life is like for MRI technicians. I had an MRI once and I just did it and didn't react and got complimented effusively for my excellent behavior. I had to think what's going on with other people?
You probably got the placebo MRI where they just push you through a snug, noisy tube, not the real MRI where they insert high-speed diamond-tipped drill bits deep inside your ear canals, and within a millimeter of each eye and at some random time the icy-handed technician screams and grabs your genitals .
Its good they didn't forget Fido. Did he pay for his seat? woof woof.
IRC, you just keep still during a MRI. I rather enjoyed it, having the big camera/or whatever slide over my body. It was like being in a SF movie.
I'm afraid of heights, not enclosed spaces. Nobody fell to their death from a closet.
Per Lewis Wetzel: You probably got the placebo MRI where they just push you through a snug, noisy tube, not the real MRI where they insert high-speed diamond-tipped drill bits deep inside your ear canals, and within a millimeter of each eye and at some random time the icy-handed technician screams and grabs your genitals .
LOL!
There is no way to properly assess this situation or the actions taken until we know precisely the race, gender and political affiliation of everyone involved.
My wife is claustrophobic, she was deathly afraid to fly. Until she found out that 747 would take her non-stop to Paris. I’m the lucky guy who got to go along.
"And by the way, if you’re ever on a conveyance and your neighbor appears to be close to freaking out..., a little kindness and pleasant chit-chat can go a long way.
Unless you're that guy on the Greyhound bus who got his head cut off by his seatmate that one time. ;-)
Michael: Or Roger Sterling, on acid.
Darrell said...
And by the way, if you’re ever on a conveyance and your neighbor appears to be close to freaking out (anecdotally, I think it’s more prevalent among men), a little kindness and pleasant chit-chat can go a long way.
And if that doesn't work, choking them out with your forearm with make the trip more pleasant. Reapply, if necessary.
I was going to suggest Ambien.
Ann: I bet MRI techs have lots of amusing anecdotes about people who forgot to take out items in various piercings.
rcocean said...
I'm afraid of heights, not enclosed spaces. Nobody fell to their death from a closet.
But they have nasty dreams about being in caves filling up with water.
Being buried alive a la Kill Bill is also a particularly vivid scene.
Who can make the sweat stop
Slow the breathing too
Make the crazy thoughts you get vanish right on cue
The Ativan Can
Oh, the Ativan can
Not making fun; works for me.
"Take a train, for heaven's sake."
That's triggering for sex addicts. The train heads into a tunnel, and they lose all control.
Being buried alive a la Kill Bill is also a particularly vivid scene.
But she escaped, thanks to Pai Mei's rigorous training. :-)
If you had this level of fear about flying, is it better or worse to get all liquored up before a flight?
I don't mind flying, but HATE the boarding process.
I'm the guy at the front of the line an hour before the doors open.
PM that’s hilarious!
I’m very claustrophobic- elevators, the middle or window seat on a plane, even the back seat of a two door car. I blame it on my brothers -when I was maybe 7 or 8 we were playing with a refrigerator box we hauled home from a local appliance store; when I crawled in it they held the open end shut and wouldn’t let me out for what felt like hours. Boys love torturing little sisters !
I enjoy flying but not on commercial airlines. Too crowded. But it's still the fastest way to travel when you need to get there fast. I'd rather fly 100 times across the ocean than take even one cruise ship.
I have a phobia about being in an enclosed space where people are boring me.
The "5-10%" figure is quoted as "one study", which is not referenced or footnoted.
I think we can simply assume the number is bullshit, and it's odd that it hasn't been removed from the article or at least marked with "citation needed".
It doesn't pass a smell test that one in twenty people has "severe claustrophobia" in general.
(Studies suggest 2% of people getting MRI scans in a broad sample have some level of claustrophobia - and my understanding is that an MRI is rather more triggering of such a phobia than "being in a plane with windows" - in an MRI machine you don't really even have room to move at all, let alone get up and walk around.
A large jet airliner is less claustrophobic than most things that might trigger it at all; less so than an elevator, let alone the MRI case, which seems to be the most studied*.
* Because it's both a very claustrophobic environment and because in the medical context there's good record-keeping of "get me out of this damn thing" or panic attacks causing the MRI to fail, etc.?)
"(Studies suggest 2% of people getting MRI scans in a broad sample have some level of claustrophobia..."
I get comfy and sometimes snooze.
Fernandinand said"George Floyd's claustrophobia allowed him to sit in the front seat of a car without problems, but not in the back seat."
There can be reasons for that. I've ridden in the back of a police cruiser and I have claustrophobia. Gotta tell you, that back seat is a tight fit on purpose and you are hemmed in also by the plastic barrier; I felt a little antsy and I was not under arrest nor was I experiencing shortness of breath.
When Floyd sat in the front seat of the van, he was in control of his movements (having control helps) and he was not yet handcuffed--being bound in any way is VERY triggering for me. I panic if I am having trouble pulling a tight shirt over my head, let alone being handcuffed!
Whenever they do that thing where they delay the flight but don't allow anyone to get off the plane, I often hope some madman will pop the door. I'd testify in his behalf.
MRIs: If it's such a big deal with you, don't look at the thing, close your eyes before they slide you in, imagine you're in your bed, breathe normally, go to sleep. I've had four of them and didn't perticularly like it - but barely recollect any of them.
If you are determined in advance that this thing is confining and freaky and scary and what all, it probably isn't going to go well for you. Don't do that. It's like those people on Survivor who had to eat those large gross grubs. Most of them decided in advance that it was going to be just sooo horrible, and so it was and so they couldn't. The winners, which would have included me, just tossed them in and gulped them down without all the histrionics.
No fun having claustrophobia! I don't have it severely but it's definitely there. It seems like a personal failing to me, like I should be able to calm myself down.
My family knows that if I have to have an MRI where my upper body is enclosed, or something similar, the doc better give me something awesome.
I bolted from the dentist's chair when I had to have my first (and only, thankfully) root canal two years ago. I had no idea ahead of time how intrusive and bolted-down that experience would be! He gave me a scrip for Valium and it really worked when I returned for the procedure.
I used to fly several times each year. I can only remember one time that a passenger was able to get off once the doors were closed. He wasn't completely "freaked out" but he was clearly agitated and communicated his condition to the stewardess. I suppose that, even if you work on your anxiety, you don't know if you've conquered it until you're on the plane!
Tip for the claustrophobic among us: Do NOT go on the Disney ride Mission Space!!!! I only have moderate claustrophobia and was fine with other enclosed-space Disney rides, but Mission Space puts you in a chair and then moves it so that it basically pins you against the display in front of you. You know, like you were actually packed into a sardine can. No attendant to hear me scream. This was like 15 years ago after it had recently opened.
As a passenger in a Cub I feel like I'm falling out when it banks, even when the door is firmly shut.
My mother was the same way. 17yo and fresh with a license, I took her for a ride. "Don't tip the plane," she insisted. So we did skidding turns where turns were necessary. You don't want to alarm the passenger.
I do have it. An MRI in anything other than an open-air machine (if my shoulders and head are involved) is impossible. On planes, I'm okay as long as we're flying or boarding with take-off assured. However, if the doors close and the pilot announces a delay, I start to freak a bit--and the freakout increases if the plane pulls away from the gate and pauses on the tarmac for a hold of indeterminate length. Only once, though, did I feel I might be unable to stop myself from screaming and attacking the door: on a small puddle-jumper during a weather hold. Half an hour later, when we finally took off, I was fine all the way.
Or, these people know exactly what they are doing and get their rocks off from the disruptions.
"But what if it's just 100 feet off the ground? No safeguard then..."
As a long-time systems analyst and programmer, I have learned to be wary of trying to find technical solutions for what are essentially behavioral problems. But making the doors lock shut until the pilot unlocks them is kind of obvious.
When I was still working, the headquarters of my financial firm was across the country and I had to fly often for conferences. I also flew to Europe from the West Coast of California several times for vacations.
When I was asked "Am I afraid of flying?" I always answered no.
"Not afraid of flying. Taking off and landing yes. But flying no. I nap"
People are naturally afraid of lots of things. Heights, snakes, spiders ... Presumably, these fears are innate, and irrational, in the sense that they are not the result of reasoned concern about an evident threat. It just happens that, for some reason, the monkeys with those irrational fears had more offspring than the monkeys without those irrational fears. So, there can be a reason for something irrational.
Sigvald. in an MRI machine you don't really even have room to move at all, let alone get up and walk around.
I don't remember if it was MRI or CAT or PET scans but several of them had these neat blanket type things that criss-crossed over your body and attached with velcro so your arms were gently and snugly held at your sides. Kept you from using your muscles to keep you arms from falling to the side. You could just relax and let the blanket hold you.
You couldn't move but gently contained. It felt like being swaddled like you do for a baby. Actually, a bit comforting.
The Piper Cub. A 1972 VW with wings. Claustrophobia is not the issue.
Ah MRIs and claustrophia. I've had attacks of claustrophobia since I was a teenager--and that was 60 years ago. I'm a big guy--6' 5" and 275, and MRI and CAT Scan machines are built for the smaller folk. I'd had MRI's on my knees--and they were bad, but my head wasn't all the way in the machine. And then I had to have an MRI scan of my head---the worst two weeks of my life were spent anticipating going in that tube. There was a real question as to whether I'd bolt from the machine or not--the attendant told my wife (who was waiting for me) that she'd seen people flee in less than 15 seconds.
But the good news was that my head was held rigid in a device that had a periscope--and while my nose was only an inch or two below the top of the "tunnel" I could see my feet and the walls of the room. I've had follow up MRIs (waiting for the tumor to return) every year for the last 10 years or so--and I'm used to it now. I like machinery and I just listen to those big old magnets humping and chunking to get the job done. It takes about half an hour.
Two things have helped the claustrophobic with MRI machines. First they are making them in larger diameters. Second they are making some of them in a sort of horizontal "U" shape. The patient is in the "U" but one side is entirely open, They are less accurate but the subject doesn't feel like he or she is in a cylindrical coffin.
A young woman who had recently had her first child once confided to me that she had been with her baby on a rooftop, and she had experienced a sudden, vivid image of throwing the baby over the edge. She was extremely disturbed by this. I explained to her that this was the only means the non-verbal part of her brain had to convey its concern that her baby was in danger to her conscious mind. She was greatly relieved by this explanation.
And no, she didn't do anything horrible to the kid. The kid is thirty years old, and just fine, unless Biden manages to steal the Presidency. Then we're all fucked.
A little compassion, please.
Obviously written by someone who never missed a connecting flight and had travel plans ruined. My compassion s entirely for the other passengers on the flight, and maybe a little for the dog.
My wife and I flew commercial a couple of months ago. With the new Covid rules they board the plane with the people in the rear boarding first. So much more civilized. I think they should make that policy permanent. If only they could find a good way to keep the dickheads with the gigantic overstuffed "carry-on" luggage from screwing things up. Maybe lower their charges for checked bags? (As if!!)
No sympathy here. Why didn't the guy's girlfriend/companion call the flight attendants and say "he's freaking out, please let him off" or something to that effect. Instead they, together, took their dog and made a gigantic clusterfuck and ruined a whole lot of people's days. Including, one sincerely hopes, their own. Frankly I'd be so pissed off I'd want the dog thrown into jail as well.
The no-fly list awaits.
Blogger Freeman Hunt said...
Whenever they do that thing where they delay the flight but don't allow anyone to get off the plane, I often hope some madman will pop the door. I'd testify in his behalf.
Probably best if you don't try to fly into Tucson in midsummer. I was on one flight that had four missed approaches and then flew to PHX and sat for four hours before taking off again for Tucson. I have been on flights that had one or two missed approaches in mid summer but that was the record. Now I am 100% retired and don't fly.
I've only had one MRI. I'd just heard Steve Earle's "Copperhead Road". When they asked what music I wanted, I figured I was kidding when I asked for Steve Earle. Got the whole thing for the whole time. Next, I'll ask for Tallis Scholars and see about that. They have this really intense soprano....
When I was in jump school fifty years ago, there was an odd combination. Some guys, it took every gut they had to go out the door. Others seemed to think it as another way to get to work with the Air Force making all that walking stuff unnecessary but otherwise....whatev. And some guys are likely still paying through the nose for their geriatric sky diving club.
But everybody wanted to get the hell off that plane.
Strange.
There is a small tunnel at the Mesa Verde cliff dwelling site. It's about twelve feet long. But it's made for people about 5'6" I had to be dragged through it because I'm too tall to bend the knees and so forth. That was tough. But going up the cliff face....no biggy. Others were having intercourse with the ladders.
Get a hundred people together not self-selected for one thing or another and you'll have issues.
THere's nothing wrong with missed approaches. It just means they descended to their published minimum height and didn't yet see the runway lights. It's a weather thing.
Or it can mean things aren't working out and try again, but that's more of a one-time thing.
Along with pressurizing the cabin- at 100 feet off the ground the aircraft is moving a few hundred MPH. Bernoulli effect. Pressure on the outside is lower.
Shipyard workers are seemingly randomly assigned to submarine sea trials. Crews have had to tackle workers trying to open the lower hatch to get out after submergence. But then, once in a rare while there'll be crew member doing the same... I've heard stories.
No system is idiot proof, but you don't want a positive locking system on aircraft or ships or in a lot of other places. Because- what happens when the locks jam? And you NEED to get out?
There's always a balance of risks. In a totally completely sane world- people don't open plane doors in flight. We don't live in a totally completely sane world. Latest evidence? Election 2020.
The guy was flying back to Florida. Did he fly to New York?
Anyway, he may simply be an asshole, or , may have been his first time on an airplane, or infrequent panic attack.
Used to be surprised at lack of imagination among commenters who "would never act like that other person did".
Frankly I'd be so pissed off I'd want the dog thrown into jail as well.
Read the story, your wish came true!
No, you can't open the doors in flight. Even as the plane starts rolling on takeoff the pressure system starts to work, the interior of the plane does not gain pressure altitude as fast as the plane itself gains altitude. That would be very uncomfortable. In the time it takes the plane to get to cruise altitude, 25K to 35K feet, the interior will only get to 8K feet (K = 1000). We talk about (in the US) air pressure in PSI, which is short for pounds-force per square inch. A 1 psi difference would mean 144 pounds of force holding the door for every square foot of door. The minimum size for an overwing exit door is approximately 6 sqft so even a 0.1 psi difference add us to about 90 lbs of extra force (on top of the mechanical force holding the door in place). The doors with the slides are a lot bigger and have a lot more force holding them as a result.
Up until the engine failure that caused the fuselage breach through the window that killed that woman last year, the only person to die in a Southwest Airlines plane (other than by natural causes) was killed by the other passengers when he tried to open the main cabin door.
FullMoon said...Used to be surprised at lack of imagination among commenters who "would never act like that other person did".
I wonder how many commenters talking about what a serious condition claustrophobia is think that is a mitigating circumstance or that those who want a severe punishment don’t think claustrophobia is a serious condition.
Maybe instead of torturing their students, psychology profs can hook up with MRI techs and get data on people already undergoing torture for other hopefully salubrious purpose.
Human consciousness. I never had a problem flying for years. But about a decade ago I took a flight that was packed. For some reason anxiety and some from of terror overtook me. Not sure if it was life experiences causing it or bad vibes in the cabin. My internal experience was one of wanting to beat the crap out of the guy next to me. A really strong urge I had to fight the whole plane ride. Never felt anything like it. There was some sort of imbalance there in my mind that I couldn't understand.
Haven't taken a plane since.
Blogger rhhardin said...
THere's nothing wrong with missed approaches. It just means they descended to their published minimum height and didn't yet see the runway lights. It's a weather thing.
Missed approaches at Tucson airport in summer are usually caused by violent thermals that swirl in the desert when it is about 125. They are not rare in summer but that was the only time I have been through four in a row. Going to PHX was to wait for cooler air at Tucson. PHX doesn't seem to have the same problem.
Stand up and act like a nut on a plane I'm on and I'll BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF YOU, HOG TIE YOU, AND THEN SIT ON YOUR SCRAWNY CARCASS TILL THE COPS COME.
Got that? I don't care what you are suffering from... if you are scared of flying... don't go.
Oh, and no runway lights at 3 PM.
a cask of amontillado will usually prevent this.
No claustrophobia in the MRI. But I'm an introvert and that FUCKING NOISE!!
Paul said...
Stand up and act like a nut on a plane I'm on and I'll BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF YOU, HOG TIE YOU, AND THEN SIT ON YOUR SCRAWNY CARCASS TILL THE COPS COME.
Got that? I don't care what you are suffering from... if you are scared of flying... don't go.
Professionally violent people never really go to this place or say things like this.
If you have been in enough fights you know one thing: There is always someone out there that can beat you up no matter how tough you are.
And if they are less than rational you might "win" the fight but they might also try to gouge out your eyes.
I would offer them alcohol OR ambien.
Both at the same time is a bad idea.
The flight was to Atlanta. They couldn't make other arrangements to fly???
With the new Covid rules they board the plane with the people in the rear boarding first. So much more civilized.
I haven't flown since covid, but I've always wondered why they didn't board back to front. More efficient. I've flown fc every since I could afford it and board last anyway. Who wants to have the entire plane load passing by.
Severe fear of heights here. Can't get more than 6' off the ground if I'm untethered without freaking, so I get why they might act like they did, but they shouldn't have gotten on the plane in the first place.
We did a remodel in a MRI room one time. Absolutely no ferrous building materials allowed. One of my installers brought his metal screwbox into the room and he said the machine ripped it out of his hand from about 3' away. Two of them couldn't pry it off the inside of the machine. The hospital had to shut it down and recalibrate. The bill was 50K. Make sure they know if you've got metal inside you.
The most efficient way to board is rear to front window and middle. Then rear to front aisle.
Claustrophobia, no. Fear of heights, hell yes. I was (re)reading Sara Paretsky's Burn Marks the other day, and just thinking about being on the 30th floor of the skeleton of a building under construction (as Paretsky's Warshawski is at the end of the book) freaked me out, in ways that the book's many other menaces (e.g., fire, dynamite) did not.
BUT . . . then, just two days ago, I happened to be reading, by pure coincidence, Josephine Tey's The Singing Sands. (OK, there are a lot of mystery novels in this house.) And the investigator there happens to be a claustrophobe, someone for whom a car is just a tightly-enclosed box, and a plane the same, only several thousand feet up. It doesn't make sense to me (for me, the difficulty with a plane is the altitude, not the closed-in-ness), but it did for him, and Tey made the fear -- the irrational, unavoidable fear -- palpable.
If I were in this guy's position, I think I would have demanded to be let off the plane, rather than forcing my own way out and causing major grief to a lot of other people. But I can't gauge people's panic reactions, as this obviously was. I do wonder, though, what the wife's role was in all this. Did she approve his decision to get out BAMN? Or try to stop it?
Interesting no one, including me, commented on potential illicit drug involvement.
Usually my first assumption for erratic behavior.
Michael K said...
Missed approaches at Tucson airport in summer are usually caused by violent thermals that swirl in the desert when it is about 125. They are not rare in summer but that was the only time I have been through four in a row. Going to PHX was to wait for cooler air at Tucson. PHX doesn't seem to have the same problem.
No, PHX has dust storms though. I've sat on the runway at Sky Harbor a few times because of dust.
ndspinelli,
The most efficient way to board is rear to front window and middle. Then rear to front aisle.
Of course! 90% of the mess I've experienced in boarding has to do with aisle-sitters having to move to accommodate later-arriving middle- and window-sitters. If this were a game involving marbles instead of people, it would be obvious.
There must be some objection. Probably one having to do with the overhead space. The aisle-sitters won't like their space being occupied by the people before them. I'm a window-sitter myself, unless I am forced to another option.
Severe fear of heights here. Can't get more than 6' off the ground if I'm untethered without freaking, so I get why they might act like they did,
Have worked with men who could not go up on a single story roof, and other men who could not go under a house with 18" crawlspace.
Then ya got those guys walking beams on sky scrapers and fooling around up there..
Re the crawl space: With me, it's not the claustrophobia but the idea there might be pideys in there. ;-) I used to have to go into the crawl space in our log house to change our water softener cartridges but always wore a hat--just in case. In my house here in AZ I wouldn't dream of going into the crawl space. Not only could there be tarantulas but scorpions or rattlesnakes! Not something I want to encounter in the semi-dark on my hands and knees. :-O
SCARIEST PLANE RIDE I EVER TOOK
Was coming home from a business trip and landed in SF to get onto a commuter plane to a smaller airport in Northern California where I would then drive the next day to home.
HOWEVER, once deplaning at SF we were informed that the flights to the smaller aiports were all cancelled due to thick fog in the Sacramento Valley and that we would be getting onto small planes (12 passengers only as I remember...maybe less) and be flown to Sacrament where we would be bused to our original point of departure. Or we could get a hotel room somewhere near the airport and wait a few days until the fog might clear. I opted to go home on the plane/bus.
First sign that this was not going to be fun. They weighed our luggage and then weighed each of us so that we would be weight balanced on the plan. Second. The plane was very small. My knees were in the co-pilot's back. I could see all the instruments.
We passengers were all chatting and gawking out of the windows until we got over the Sac Valley and socked in with fog was an UNDERSTATEMENT. All you could see was a big fluffy white blanket with an occasional radio tower top peeking out. Hmmm scary.
THEN we descend through the fog and everyone except the pilots got dead silent. The fog was ground ZERO and we were just descending in this itty bitty plane with these two guys lives in our hands. SILENCE from us. Finally we could see the runway when we were about 25 ft above the ground.
Long story short!! We landed safely and the passengers...all twelve of us broke out in applause and cheers. WE LIVED!!! Thank God for those pilots. Some of us gave them kisses...including a couple of the guy passengers. I would have kissed the ground those guys walked on at this point!!
Then...the 4 hour bus ride through the fog to the Northern Airport. Not interested in doing that again.
I'm a window-sitter myself, unless I am forced to another option.
Aisle seat for me! Last flight we took to the UK I was by the window, my husband in the middle and a large man on the aisle. Both slept most of the way so if I wanted to get up I was SOL.
Not the scariest plane ride but the most unpleasant was Seattle to Tokyo when we hit a typhoon about halfway there and it was roller coaster time until we landed. There was weak applause. Many on board were sick--mostly young servicemen, I think, who had been drinking since the plane took off. Even the flight attendants looked a little green. My husband and I felt fine but tried to keep our cards on the table playing two-handed bridge.
Lotsa typos sorry. OUR lives were in the Pilot's hands.
Then ya got those guys walking beams on sky scrapers and fooling around up there..
I've had that nightmare. Just jump and get it over with. I'm not sure it is the same for everyone, but it's like there's a vortex trying to suck you over the edge. I've had to crawl along a second story balcony to get to my motel room. With my shoulder pressed against the wall. You never know how firm that railing actually is, and the sucking is pretty intense. The oddity is that if I'm tethered it's cool. I've climbed 100' sheer cliffs while roped. Dove the backside of Molikini, 300' straight down, without any fear setting in. Still working up the guts to skydive, but I'll put on some depends for that one.
I'm willing to cut the guy on the plane some slack. If you've never experienced an extreme phobia you might not understand, but ratonality isn't in any part of the picture when it hits.
The emergency slide
Is not a playground ride.
It just looks like one.
It's lots of fun.
Pacwest: You probably wouldn't like this:
Tianmen Mountain Walkway
@mockturtle
LOL. That's not on my to do list:) It hurts just to look at the pictures!
And it looks like it's not anchored very well. Somebody's going to get hurt.
I hate fried liver. It makes me want to vomit. The very smell of it makes me want to vomit. I'm not sure if it is an allergy, or just a psychological reaction. There's a restaurant near me that has fried liver on the menu, and it's apparently something of a specialty -- lots of customers order the fried liver. I've asked the restaurant owners for an accommodation -- couldn't they build a special booth for me with a separate air system, so that I would not be bombarded with the smell of fried liver. The last time I ate there, the smell was so bad that I threw a chair through the front window to let in a little fresh air.
My lawyer suggested that I eat at other restaurants, and give this one a pass. But I am adamant: I have a right to eat at any restaurant I want; this one is close to me, and to eat at other restaurants would create some hardship for me -- it is costly to travel longer distances, and I might not like the food as much at those restaurants.
I am really at my wits end and would welcome any suggestions from the (legal savvy) commentariat here on Althouse. Can I sue the restaurant? Can I sue the other diners who order fried liver? Should I just continue with the status quo, being ready and willing to throw chairs when the odor becomes unbearable?
"I am really at my wits end and would welcome any suggestions from the (legal savvy) commentariat here on Althouse."
Not legal savvy, but I have a wife who is something of a prima donna, too, and when something like your predicament comes up I ask her to go home to her mother and not to come back until she gets a grip. Maybe you should visit her mother too.
Blogger h said...
I hate fried liver. It makes me want to vomit. The very smell of it makes me want to vomit. I'm not sure if it is an allergy, or just a psychological reaction. There's a restaurant near me that has fried liver on the menu, and it's apparently something of a specialty -- lots of customers order the fried liver. I've asked the restaurant owners for an accommodation -- couldn't they build a special booth for me with a separate air system, so that I would not be bombarded with the smell of fried liver. The last time I ate there, the smell was so bad that I threw a chair through the front window to let in a little fresh air.
My lawyer suggested that I eat at other restaurants, and give this one a pass. But I am adamant: I have a right to eat at any restaurant I want; this one is close to me, and to eat at other restaurants would create some hardship for me -- it is costly to travel longer distances, and I might not like the food as much at those restaurants.
I am really at my wits end and would welcome any suggestions from the (legal savvy) commentariat here on Althouse. Can I sue the restaurant? Can I sue the other diners who order fried liver? Should I just continue with the status quo, being ready and willing to throw chairs when the odor becomes unbearable?
Contact Steve Uhr,(read the entire Judges Ruling,it's amusing: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCOURTS-mnd-0_10-cv-04945/pdf/USCOURTS-mnd-0_10-cv-04945-0.pdf
Uhr has brought multiple lawsuits — first as an attorney representing others, now as a pro se plaintiff representing only himself — seeking to recover damages from the alleged conspirators.Uhr has not been discouraged by the fact that, to date, all of his lawsuits have been dismissed. Nor has Uhr been discouraged by the fact that he has no evidence that he personally has ever paid a penny more for a drink because of the alleged conspiracy. Nor has Uhr been discouraged by the fact that many of those who he alleges are involved in this conspiracy —including medical doctors, police officers, educators, scientists, and charitable foundations dedicated to improving public health — would have no reason to join a conspiracy to help bars and restaurants increase their profits on liquor sales. Nor has Uhr been discouraged by the fact that some of those who he alleges are central to the conspiracy — in particular, distillers,wholesalers, and distributors — would lose money if retailers raised drink prices and thereby lowered alcohol consumption. Uhr plows ahead, filing lawsuit after lawsuit, seeking to forced efendants who appear to have caused him no harm to pay him millions of dollars in damages.
@h
Your point is a little belaboured but to go with the analogy - do you have the same reaction to liver every time or is it something that you can occasionally and minimally control with willpower? Is the nearest restaurant that doesn't serve liver a 24 hour drive away? Can you make it to the restroom before you heave so you don't disturb the other customers?
I get your point. He shouldn't have been on the plane. And I won't be holding up the line at the Mountain Walkway. The guy thought he could handle it. He couldn't. Consequences follow. Who's going to be paying for the window?
And it looks like it's not anchored very well. Somebody's going to get hurt.
I think 'hurt' is an understatement. ;-) Just imagine being one of the builders! Makes you wonder how many lives were lost just putting that in place.
mockturtle,
I make every effort to make sure that I don't need to get up during the flight. (= bathroom run at last possible moment before boarding.) That means that I don't need to get up every time someone else on the row needs to get up. Hence the window. (Plus, I can look out the window, which can be cool.)
And it looks like it's not anchored very well. Somebody's going to get hurt.
I think 'hurt' is an understatement. ;-) Just imagine being one of the builders! Makes you wonder how many lives were lost just putting that in place.
Always my thought. Not of lives lost, but skill involved. Probably three or four engineers and twenty or so Home Depot Mexicans.
Except under extreme circumstances, I would find the spectacle of a man blowing the hatch, hopping out onto the slide, and being followed by his woman (!) and his dog (!!!) well worth a delay of several hours. Merely imagining it makes me laugh! Pop and a parade down the slide with an animal!
“Being enclosed or thinking about being enclosed in a confined space can trigger fears of not being able to breathe properly, and running out of oxygen.”
I’m not a psychiatrist, but maybe DON’T GET ON A PLANE, then!
pacwest asks me: "do you have the same reaction to liver every time or is it something that you can occasionally and minimally control with willpower?". I'm not sure how to answer this. If it happens every time, does that make it a disability covered by ADA? And regardless of legal doctrine, which answer would make me more sympathetic to the Althouse commentariat?
I am not claustrophobic. As early as 7, I went into the my home's crawl space. It was dark, mysterious and full of boxes that I wanted to explore. Then I discovered storm sewers with open-end drain pipes. Not only did I travel into these, but put a rag wet with gasoline on the end of a stick and lit it to show me the way, not unlike the torches the townspeople used to stalk Frankenstein's Monster. We moved to another state and I found a similar storm sewer system and I used it as an escape mechanism if, after pitching snowballs at cars, someone would chase after me. I could hid out in my "catacombs" until the coast was clear.
The closest I have come to this as adult is living for 2 years on a 36-foot houseboat docked outside my waterfront cafe in Jupiter, FL. I have a lot of junk but I like confined spaces. I could easily live in one of those tiny houses you see on the internet.
Achilles said...
Professionally violent people never really go to this place or say things like this.
If you have been in enough fights you know one thing: There is always someone out there that can beat you up no matter how tough you are.
And if they are less than rational you might "win" the fight but they might also try to gouge out your eyes.
I would offer them alcohol OR ambien.
Both at the same time is a bad idea.
There have been several cases on flights were passengers have done just as I said. They stopped nutjobs from trying to open the doors on the plane. Roughed them up and hog tied them. And the officials didn't charge them with anything.
And BTW Achilles, I've got 40 years of martial arts... plus one burglar and one purse snatcher to my credit. Fighting is not an unusual thing for me.
And BTW Achilles, I've got 40 years of martial arts... plus one burglar and one purse snatcher to my credit. Fighting is not an unusual thing for me.
So, two, then?
Do kings and queens step aside?
IMO, passengers should get involved to subdue someone unruly and/or dangerous if at all possible. In this case, the plane was on the ground so there was no point.
These cases seem ridiculous, but claustrophobia is a real anxiety disorder. Wikipedia says: "Being enclosed or thinking about being enclosed in a confined space can trigger fears of not being able to breathe properly, and running out of oxygen.... Most claustrophobic people who find themselves in a room without windows consciously know that they aren't in danger, yet these same people will be afraid, possibly terrified to the point of incapacitation, and many do not know why."
Donald Trump seems ridiculous, but malignant narcissism is a real mental disorder. Wikipedia says: "Malignant narcissism is a psychological syndrome comprising an extreme mix of narcissism, antisocial behavior, aggression, and sadism. Grandiose, and always ready to raise hostility levels, the malignant narcissist undermines families and organizations in which they are involved, and dehumanizes the people with whom they associate. . . . The importance of malignant narcissism and of projection as a defense mechanism has been confirmed in paranoia, as well as . . . vulnerability of the patient [Trump] to malignant narcissistic regression"
FIFY
Next year, when the 25th amendment is triggered, perhaps Biden can find a job as a claustrophobia detector. If a passenger can survive hur hair smelling — no claustrophobia. And slow mode sloppy Joe has something to do.
The New York Post reports the PTSD stemmed from a jail stint on robbery charges.
He black.
Was there a reason this person disrupting the flight was NOT tackled by several passengers, beaten into submission, wrapped in seatbelts and duct tape, and turned over to the authorities? Asking because I remember the idiot shoe bomber, the idiot underwear bomber, the Lockerbie bombing, .......
I am old and I am fat, but if I am on a flight where somebody goes off, I'll do my best to flatten them, personally, without asking permission, before any harm can be done.
Good for you, mikee. And I'm an older female but I would at least kick him in the groin. :-)
Is duct tape allowed in carry-on bags?
I don't fly. Emergency landing with failed engines in an Air Florida puddle-jumper over the Everglades the week before they closed the airline. God the plane was quiet. The pilots diligent but panicked -- only canvas flaps separating us. My second plane trip ever.
Two male passengers had to wrestle the stewardess to the floor: she was screaming that we were all going to die. Foam on the runway, fire engines, emergency escape slides; they put you in a special room to keep you from infecting other flyers with anxiety, I guess. Hours of interviews. They gave use each a cold stale bagel and a mini bottle of champagne, but no cream cheese for the bagel. Weird.
This experience made me think a lot about the difference between women and men. Not all of them, of course, but the men certainly demonstrated leadership, cooperation, and courage. Women demonstrate just as much courage all the time, but it's more an individual than group thing. There are implications for military service -- not policing, but combat. A lot of policing involves complex emotional interactions that women excell at. Not so much war.
I tried all the PTSD treatments including flight desensitization. I got as far as the plane door and turned around. Is it just an urban myth that a special flight for such anxious flyers crashed once? Yet I can do high work in a harness or scissor lift to fifty feet indoors, no problem. I've decided a lot of it really is the need to control your own surroundings. Also, no wind. Or alligators below.
I actually flew a few times after that. Every second was sheer, abject, white-knuckle, entirely irrational terror, but I kept it to myself and finally stopped doing it. Then don't call phobias irrational for nothing. Not other people's problem. Stewards notice you and do chat you up, which is very kind. very
Amtrak sleeping cars aren't cheap, but I use travel points, and they are marvelous. Due to a year commuting to a badly ill sibling in hospital, I got to known the room porters by name. There are few southern routes. Tipping helps. Steak delivered to your room; excellent coffee in china cups and eggs in the morning. Toilet in the room, a wonderfully, efficiently designed cabin. Tiny, but bed turn-down. newspapers coming into D.C. Do try it once, if you can handle the guilt of knowing that taxpayers are subsidizing your steak sauce. Taking a shower in a train is a delightful experience, nothing like the old days but still a rare modern luxury.
I also know every highway exit between Atlanta and Tampa. Tifton is not, as advertised, Terrific.
Do not, not, not take coach.
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