"Research shows it effectively corrects a falsehood, because people tend to remember the beginning and end of a statement, rather than what’s in the middle. Mr. Trump’s resistance to masks is... a target for a derisive truth sandwich: 'Wearing a mask is one of the most effective ways to prevent the spread of coronavirus. But you sure wouldn’t know it from the president, who has run around in public without one and mocks people like me who wear them. Is it vanity or that he just doesn’t believe in science? I don’t know, but the science is undisputed: wearing masks saves lives.'"
From
"How to Debate Someone Who Lies/Truth sandwiches, ridicule and other tactics for Joe Biden when he faces President Trump" by Richard A. Friedman, a professor of clinical psychiatry (NYT).
So, I guess Biden
could say that. But wouldn't he have to be wearing a mask? Is Biden going to wear a mask for 90 minutes of debate?!
Here's how that column looked in my browser:
The Biden ad has a picture of Biden wearing a mask! I guess I don't "believe in science" if I "mock" that, but it's ridiculous. It's a photograph!
Posts
170 comments:
I don’t know, but the science is undisputed: wearing masks saves lives
Got a link?
..and how many lies told by Biden in the last month. over/under: 12.5
Masks are the new yellow badge.
Submit peasants.
Lakaoff doesn't "study propaganda;" he actively assists Dems/Progressives in crafting propaganda!
Lakoff is a propagandist himself.
He makes those truth sandwiches like a deli worker
Truth sandwich example:
Trump lies.
Lying about the size of the audience at your inauguration is more serious than lying about “good people”.
Biden lies.
Trump and Biden (like all politicians) both lie.
The appropriate advice would be How to Debate Another Liar
"How to Debate Someone Who Lies"
Yeah, it's gonna be tricky for Trump to debate someone who lies about the basics of his own biography.
We have four decades (and three failed presidential candidacies) of Biden's lies documented, versus four years worth of Trumps lies. LiarsFest 2020 is gonna be lit!
Sebastian said...
"How to Debate Someone Who Lies"
Yeah, it's gonna be tricky for Trump to debate someone who lies about the basics of his own biography.
9/25/20, 10:21 AM
This.
It’s a fine line sometimes between lying and just being confidently full of shit.
Like, for example, even if the Iranians get enough fissile material for a bomb, they don’t have a bomb design to use it in!
I wonder if Lakoff has any advice for Trump on countering statements like that.
Kim Strassel has a good list of questions Slow Joe should be asked at the debate.
Democrat political figures are liars. They lied about Charlottesville. They lied about Russian Collusion. They lied about Ukraine impeachment phone call. They lied about "peaceful protests" when they are "violent riots." They lied about Brett Kavanaugh as a teenage rapist.
It just goes on and on.
I don’t know, but the science is undisputed: wearing masks saves lives.
That statement itself is a lie strictly speaking. With regards to Covid-19 transmission the true efficacy of mask wearing has been debated ceaselessly in the scientific community for months and months now. It's simply untrue to make such an absolute statement like that with regards to mask wearing.
Friedman is arguing that people should lie when debating someone who lies, because ... lies count less if they are between statements that are supposedly true? Isn't that normalizing dishonesty? Sigh.
Everybody hates masks, even people who believe they are necessary, even Democrats. It could be a better strategy for Trump to be the candidate who is committed to making sure people are not wearing them forever compared to Biden's complacent acceptance of masks.
Masks are only marginally effective- say the tests done on masks prior to March 2020. In years before 2020 biomedical engineers did many studies on the effectiveness of masks to protect people from other viruses and concluded mass wearing of masks by the general public is only marginally effective, and then only when people wear them correctly, change them often, and wash their hands every time they touch their face. So what's the bread and what's the filling in that example?
"Is Biden going to wear a mask for 90 minutes of debate?!"
They'll be well more than six feet apart. Surely Joe will follow the science.
It’s a lie that wearing masks saves lives.
1.) Identify the lie. (This can be tricky.)
2.) Chuckle.
3.) Say "There you go again."
4.) Restate the false claim.
5.) Explain precisely why the statement is a lie.
6.) Go back to your strength.
To the extent science supports masks lowering risks, you could also argue that banning personal cars greatly reduces the risk of traffic accidents. Eventually, we can point out that straight-jackets and padded rooms reduce the risk of suicide (unless you are named Epstein). If Biden was hip to the new science; he would wear a face shield to the debate.
They used to be called 'shit sandwiches', right?
And they expect us to eat them.
Waitress sammich, slathered in truth.
Narr
Who's for brunch?
I'm pretty good at identifying lies, whether in a sandwich or sitting on the counter all by themselves. Here's an example: "The science is undisputed: wearing masks saves lives."
Very simple, really, I'm surprised this wicked smart guy doesn't see it.
You notice that in every possible situation it’s never Trump, but always his opponents that need help, advice and encouragement.
Why is that?
Joe Biden: Steady. Tested. Muzzled.
Do you suggest that some, if not all, of Trump's critics lie? Be still my beating heart! I'm surprised that anyone would suggest that. (At least anyone who is not mentally "challenged").
Ken B said...
Truth sandwich example:
Hey- it's like a haiku! Lemme try...
Joe plagiarizes
Soros pays the rioters
Trump is in the lead
The problem is that there is no definitive science behind masks. They seem like a reasonable precaution and arguments can be made that they should be effective, but I have seen nothing scientifically convincing. Running a solid study would be hard to do. I think there is better observational support for the early use of HCQ.
I've read some of Lakoff's stuff, he is a very bright guy and I agree with some of his observations, but he is a rabid, I say rabid, partisan of the far left and I wouldn't trust him anywhere in the neighborhood of power.
There are so many images showing Biden wearing his mask that lefty media must believe the image helps him.
As with the "Trump voter conversion ad" linked to previously, the Biden camp seems to believe the Wuhan virus -- to the exclusion of traditional issues -- is Trump's achilles heel when it comes to capturing independents.
Maybe that is what Biden's polling shows, but more likely it's a waning issue, and elicits suspicion that political motive is behind a lockdowns that increasingly looks like an overreaction.
Biden's pitch is "you know me" and that I would've been a better leader on the virus, in defiance of what everyone has witnessed. That self-assertion of personal integrity defies history, lacks substance and is simply preaching to the choir, not an appeal to undecideds.
Accordingly, Trump should focus on independents getting to "know" the real corrupt insider Joe.
I don't wear a mask, but I live in a normal state that doesn't require it. We allow people to make up their own minds. I haven't had to wear a mask during this whole "pandemic". Also have been able to ear at restaurants, go to bars, get my hair cut and just lived my life.
"Got a link?”
How many do you want? Why don’t you ask a specific question? My experience is that when I provide links on this, and I have provided many, that the person either ignores it, rhymes with Nancy Lord, or comes up with some other question that basically amounts to grasping at straws, so why don’t you state your specific objection? “Masks don’t work” is too general.
He's a professor and he's that ignorant and dumb???
Wait, that's not really a surprise anymore. . . . . .
“Helped beat back an epidemic”
There’s a lie, and BTW, he emptied our supply of masks and other PPE and never replenished them. That was a great move.
"The problem is that there is no definitive science behind masks.”
There is tons of it, it’s more like wearing a seat belt than banning automobiles. is your objection that there has been no double bind study over a large population? Yeah, that’s impossible, but there are plenty of observational studies that show that masks work, and experiments have been done with masks and viral detection gear that show that masks impede the spread of the virus from asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic people. If it were just people with symptoms spreading this, it would have died out already, like SARS.
I don’t understand why you guys are both against shutdowns and against a simple measure that can greatly decrease the economic impact of the pandemic.
I also don’t understand why Instapundit has been running so much anti-mask bullshit propaganda on his blog. It is kind of lowering my respect for him that he seems to be caving to his low info readers.
Here’s a good overview:
https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2020/07/do-cloth-masks-work
"How to Debate Someone Who Lies..."
That's rich, coming from the nyt.
The pretense that Biden is honest is a lie, the things the author says about Trump are lies, and he also suggests that Biden tell lies in the debate. Plenty of unfounded pop psychology in it, too.
He advises Biden to lie in the form of a "truth sandwich" (or was it just crappy writing?):
[Biden should say] ”But let’s focus on the grim truth: More than 200,000 of our loved ones died from coronavirus, many because of the president’s deception.”
The cognitive scientist George Lakoff, who studies propaganda, calls this a “truth sandwich” — a lie gets sandwiched between true statements.
Tim, the entirety of the lie rests on one word he wrote, "undisputed".
I'm thinking IF Joe shows he's gonna try and peel off the two or three lies he can remember from his six weeks of lids for debate prep, then search desperately for the teleprompter, take a senior moment to process its absence, then fall back to ridicule, you horse-faced empty dump truck!
There are so many images showing Biden wearing his mask that lefty media must believe the image helps him.
The meme is that Joe would like to campaign but he is responsibly not campaigning because of the virus. (Wink. Wink.)
#TrumpKilledYourGrandma
Blogger tim in vermont said...
he emptied our supply of masks and other PPE and never replenished them.
What are you talking about here? Who emptied our supplies? PDJT? Seems like it was the Chinese who emptied our supplies back in December and January with people going around to stores all all over the US and other countries like Australia buying up all the PPE and shipping it to China.
As for replenishing, we did have an initial problem but caught up pretty quick. So what do you me [Trump] never replenished them?
You are not making sense here, Tim.
John Henry
You can fool some of the people all of the time.
And those people vote Democrat.
"With regards to Covid-19 transmission the true efficacy of mask wearing has been debated ceaselessly in the scientific community for months and months now. “
Why don’t you link to something written in July or later that is both published science, and maintains that masks are ineffective, You guys seem to point to stuff written in March, stuff that has been all but retracted.
Like this letter to NEJM making corrections to an article that has been widely cited by anti mask propagandists.
To The Editor: We understand that some people are citing our Perspective article (published on April 1 at NEJM.org)1 as support for discrediting widespread masking. In truth, the intent of our article was to push for more masking, not less. It is apparent that many people with SARS-CoV-2 infection are asymptomatic or presymptomatic yet highly contagious and that these people account for a substantial fraction of all transmissions.2,3
Ooh, people are misrepresenting his article? To be honest, his article was a piece of shit in the first place, that if I had handed it in as a paper in college, would have come back covered in red ink, complete with a disappointed look from the prof.
We did state in the article that “wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection,” but as the rest of the paragraph makes clear, we intended this statement to apply to passing encounters in public spaces, not sustained interactions within closed environments. A growing body of research shows that the risk of SARS-CoV-2 transmission is strongly correlated with the duration and intensity of contact: the risk of transmission among household members can be as high as 40%, whereas the risk of transmission from less intense and less sustained encounters is below 5%.5-7 This finding is also borne out by recent research associating mask wearing with less transmission of SARS-CoV-2, particularly in closed settings.8 We therefore strongly support the calls of public health agencies for all people to wear masks when circumstances compel them to be within 6 ft of others for sustained periods.
Michael Klompas, M.D., M.P.H.
Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2020836
If you follow it, you can go to his citations of “recent research” on mask wearing
You know what? Just click through his links or remain the kind of low info commenters you seem to like to be.
I don't wear a mask
They have limited value for source control, which is why they're recommended for people who are symptomatic (i.e. coughing, sneezing - forceful expulsions/projections). Their effectiveness is further dependent on the environment, transmission mode, and proper use. The consensus is physical distancing when symptomatic.
Well, who knew that those elderly people in the nursing homes if they had been wearing masks would still be alive today?
Blogger JPS said...
It’s a fine line sometimes between lying and just being confidently full of shit.
At least Biden empties his shit. Into his pants. On a live stream. With the governor of Ohio.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy7cHLBi-7U
Watch to the end where he shuffles carefuly away tugging at the seat of his pants.
Kind of like my 2Y/O grandson does when he has a load in his pants.
And it seems to be catching. Watch Nadler waddle away from Nancy d'Alessandro Pelosi the other day https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l04Xovebuc
John Henry
The question that has intrigued me for several months is: how do you debate someone who is senile? Could be tricky, will the moderators help?
Wisconsin has had a mask mandate for months now. Millions more Wisconsinites are wearing masks. However, hospitalization and death rates have remained remarkably consistent with pre-mandate numbers. It doesn’t seem to have had much of an impact here.
Masks are an extension of the political theater we’re watching. Masks alone do almost nothing to prevent spread except they keep people’s hands off their faces. Washing hands and refraining from touching ones face do more overall to keep one safe. We don’t have enough valid data on how the virus spreads to address specific means of thwarting it beyond standard flu protocol, which does not include mask wearing. Like the magic thinking of the six foot rule mask fetishists tend to see what they want in the practice, ignoring physics and environmental variables. That’s how we end up with cops tasing mothers who are outdoors watching their kids play.
The question that has intrigued me for several months is: how do you debate someone who is senile? Could be tricky, will the moderators help?
On the other hand not every generation is lucky enough to live through an actual worldwide panic attack.
What is the point of an op ed like this? Do they think Biden will read it and take the advice - or are they just trying to tell their gullible readers in advance that Biden easily won the debate - or could have?
“Masks don’t work” is too general.
Fair enough. I have no problem with masks indoors when close to others. I wore masks in surgery for 50 years but that was about bacteria, not viruses. Also those masks were not the same as what most wear these days. Masks outdoors is nonsense and serves mainly to identify the politics of the wearer. Of course, some state Governors (like the AZ Gov) have bought the whole scheme.
I have seen arguments about droplets and even electrostatic attraction but they are controversial.
I would think psychiatrists would give up on politics as a majority know they are as looney as they sound.
Can anyone point to a peer reviewed study that "proves" masks save lives?
I would like to read the study. There are boundary conditions that need to be evaluated along with the methodology.
That is science!
Public health “experts” have a lot to answer for, not least if which is why so few Americans are actually sick from this virus. I mean good outcomes (fewer deaths than existed) require as much explanation as bad ones do.
Is it T cell immunity from colds and flu?
Is it those comorbidities we heard so much about?
Does God just hate NY for some reason?
Some people wear masks, but Biden wears a face-diaper.
Lakoff has been focused on "framing" and other supposed cognitive tricks to help Democrats on messaging for decades now, without great success. Not that Democrats haven't had successes -- they have -- just that I don't think those successes have come from following Lakoff's advice.
This one is a particularly awkward fit for Biden, since when he was still reasonably cogent, Biden's debate style was pretty Trumpy, focused on derision, mockery, and rude interjection rather than facts or reasoned argument (it's how he "won" over Paul Ryan back in 2012). And Biden's famous for just making stuff up. So this would require Biden to change his entire debate persona, and I'm not sure how easy that will be. That said, Trump is better at that style of debate, having honed his skills over a long and successful career in TV. So Biden is probably not going to do well if he tries to match Trump with his usual diet-Trump antics.
Biden's own campaign slogan "Build Back Better" is a lie. Or at least plagiarized. To the extent that he explicitly and implicitly claims it as his own is a lie.
Build back better goes back to 2015 and was a UN slogan.
Can't Joe get anything right?
John Henry
Saying 'masks saves lives' is like saying 'the TSA are keeping me safe' while they strip search you.
I mean “better than nothing is a high standard” or something similar used to be seen around here. Sweden did damn near nothing about the virus and had a better outcome than NY and NJ. The USA has a better outcome than Sweden. But results are so varied country to country we really have no easy explanations why doing SOMETHING was better than doing NOTHING about Covid.
A few minutes ago I was idly cruising on the TV when who shows up but Steve Schmidt! And look it's the other bald buffoon Rick Wilson! They were courtesy of the National Press Club, and spoke to beaming approval from a Black woman I did not recognize.
Wilson had just agreed with whatever SS had said, and launched into how when Biden sits behind the Resolute desk he'll have to spend his first two years cleaning up Covid after Trump's massive and deadly failures--Biden won't have time for the Green Nude Eel and stuff, you see--and you know it's the presidents who rise to the greatest challenges that become the greatest presidents and --
I couldn't listen to more.
Narr
Come on, man!
I don’t know, but the science is undisputed: wearing masks saves lives
Undisputed, no. Their effectiveness varies by culture (i.e. behavioral), technical standards (e.g. sanitation), climate, structures, transmission modes. A credible explanation for disparate, inconsistent outcomes is that the official one-dimensional perspective mischaracterizes the pathogen's dynamics.
Unfortunately, that essay is a shit sandwich made entirely of shit. The actual science says masks have extrememly limited utility in stopping the spread of respiratory infections. Wear one if you want, that is your own business, but fuck off otherwise.
I don’t know, but the science is undisputed: wearing masks saves lives.
If it's undisputed wearing a mask saved at least two lives....name them.
Pro tip: If your science is undisputed, it isn't science.
serious question,
Robert Redfield, director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said he believes the pandemic could be brought under control over the next four to eight weeks if “we could get everybody to wear a mask right now.” His comments, made in mid-July...
hmmm . . .
"Mid July"? four to eight weeks"? "brought under control"? "get everybody to wear masks"?
Also from mid july
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/20/more-than-half-of-us-states-have-statewide-mask-mandates.html
So, IF MASKS WORK; WHY DO WE STILL HAVE COVID?
anyone? Tim in Vermont? anyone at all?
It's rich that George Lakoff is quoted here. His forte is using language to hide the meaning of things, or change the appearance of what you are doing. How to reframe things to make them more positive for your side. He's been a thought and language leader for the Democrat/progressive movements for years. His thinking was behind the 'you didn't build that' philosophy that was taken up by Obama and Liz Warren. He was behind the rebranding of Occupy Wall Street so that people who saw them for what they were (Antifa v 1.0) were led to believe they were seeing an organic peaceful movement.
His forte is deception, hiding the true nature of things.
And of course, he's the lean-to source for an article in the NYT.
One other thing: Maybe one of you can tell me when the last time was that we had a Presidential debate where neither candidate lied, or played with the truth. I'll wait for it. I mean, Joe Biden's false tales could be a 10 volume epic.
Wearing masks saves lies! Government lies. And it also makes people who have been terrorised by the propaganda feel safer
>>like, for example, even if the Iranians get enough fissile material for a bomb, they don’t have a bomb design to use it in!
As lies go, that's pretty bad.
The Hiroshima bomb design was never tested. It didn't need to be.
The design was dirt simple: Take one subcritical mass of U235 and shoot it down a gun barrel into another subcritical mass of U235.
The faster you bring them together, the faster they go critical, and the bigger the boom.
So if the Iranians ever find Google, they can have a working design.
“ Wearing a mask is one of the most effective ways to prevent the spread of coronavirus. But you sure wouldn’t know it from the president,”
So is being test every day to be sure you don’t have the virus to spread it.
Tim, I began ignoring your links on it because the overwhelming evidence actually supports my position on the issue. Every single quality study demonstrates that masks don't really work with respiratory viruses. The only good thing to say about them is that they might work to some marginal extent if they were made of the proper material, were replaced promptly after use, and that people used them properly. However, the studies show that none of this happens in the real world. Like I wrote above- you are free to use your mask whereever you want, just leave those of us who aren't risk averse the fuck alone.
I've been noticing a bunch of people wearing masks in their social media profile pictures (mainly Twitter). Why? Is it some sort of virtue signaling? Do they think that hiding half their face when they don't need to will make them seem more trustworthy? Most of the ones I've noticed have been journalists (NYT, WaPo)
Because you may disagree with a statement does no make it a lie. To lie is to knowingly tell a falsehood in order to deceive, or so says the dictionary. Let's give George Costanza credit: it's not a lie if you believe it.
rush used to call him 'wackoff, rhymes with' back in 2004,
'Wearing a mask is one of the most effective ways to prevent the spread of coronavirus. But you sure wouldn’t know it from the president, who has run around in public without one and mocks people like me who wear them. Is it vanity or that he just doesn’t believe in science? I don’t know, but the science is undisputed: wearing masks saves lives.'
Actually, that's a lie and a false choice sandwiched between two other lies. Was that, by any chance, written by one of the lying liars who lie at the NYT?
Anyone here old enough to remember when the Science was that we needed to "flatten the curve" so there would be enough ventilators for everyone?
Original Mike said...
"Is Biden going to wear a mask for 90 minutes of debate?!"
They'll be well more than six feet apart. Surely Joe will follow the science.
---------------==================
do you spit (aerosol) more with dentures or real teeth >>>> keep Geo Washington away?
stop using words with aspirated consonants
“Wearing masks saves lives”? AYFKM?
California went like this:
We don’t have enough M95/N95 masks for the health care professionals. Don’t hoard them. We need them for those on the “front lines”.
CDC says regular/cloth masks probably don’t do much, just stay home and be socially distant.
Hair on Fire, everyone must wear a mask, it protects us ALL.
OMG these fires are brutal, it’s a good thing we’re wearing these masks...
What? These cloth masks don’t stop the damaging fire/ash particles?
No, you need an M95/N95 mask to stop the damaging fire/ash particles.
It’s because the particles are so small that they go right thru the cloth masks.
Hmmm, how small are the C-19 particles?
Smaller than the fire/ash particles.
So my cloth mask doesn’t stop c-19 either?
Wear a mask, it’s your patriotic duty! You deplorable!
Life is like a shit sandwich. Every once in a while you have to take a bite.
Jeez he Dems are trotting this guy again? Last I heard of him I think was the 2004 election when he bemoaned that Dems just did not know how to best express their great ideas. Back thenm he was referred to as a linguistic expert.
"Wearing a mask is one of the most effective ways to prevent the spread of coronavirus."
Citation needed because I have not seen many tests that have been run that use the Covid-19 virus.
You ask, what epidemic did Biden help beat back? Well, it's the one you missed it because he helped beat it back. Duh!
My brother-in-law wears his mask everywhere but he still caught covid-19. These paper and cloth masks have an efficacy of less than 7%.
Boy oh boy, they really live in their own little world at the NYT.
Friedman has a TDS twittering, e.g.:
Richard A. Friedman
Mar 6, 2017
"Trump is desperate to divert attention from the Russia story. Do we have a RAT for president: Russian Agent Trump???"
Does Friedman call a non-metaphorical sandwich a "bread sandwich"? Sandwiches are ordinarily named for the thing that's in the middle.
who the farthing is richard friedman,
why isn't Joe indicted for his international money whoring and tax payer money laundering for his son and other family members?
High crimes.
Biden is a habitual liar.
Anyone here old enough to remember when the Science was that we needed to "flatten the curve" so there would be enough ventilators for everyone?
I must be ancient since I not only remember that but I can recall a time when Fauchi lectured us NOT to wear masks. Looking back to the beginning of time I can see our Democrat not-betters belittling the President for restricting travel from China while they encouraged the public to got out and play.
LISTEN TO THE 'SCIENCE'!
so what was the trinity test about, greg benford had an alt history, the berlin project about what happened if the germans got the bomb first, they would use effectively a dirty bomb,
"I don’t understand why you guys are both against shutdowns and against a simple measure that can greatly decrease the economic impact of the pandemic."
Dear TIV,
Maybe you can explain to me, what is your endgame? Do you believe that you will some day be able to go about life as you once did, without fear of Covid-19, and also without ever having contracted Covid-19? How is that supposed to happen? Everyone who has it puts on a mask, so no one gets it any more, and after a couple weeks it's all gone? Is that absurd fantasy what you are calling "science"? Or are you just waiting for a vaccine, preferably one that is 100% effective? Maybe you are willing to take your chances with one that is only 30% effective, like every other flu vaccine? Face it, Dude. You either get this disease and get over it, or you die, or you cower in a basement somewhere for the rest of your life. Choose wisely!
Actually, I left out an option. It may well be that, like a lot of other people, you are already immune to Covid-19. One of the first survivor accounts, in the WaPo, was written by a guy who was on the Diamond Princess and had a bad but not life-threatening case. He and his wife occupied the same cabin for two weeks, and she never got it. Maybe she was wearing a mask?
If you follow it, you can go to his citations of “recent research” on mask wearing
I have followed all of your links and read the studies and they are universally weak and not very well controlled. The China (China!!!!) study you cite is no different. It's a weak, retrospective analysis using self-reported -- and multiple, therefore uncontrolled -- hygiene practices. The 95% CI for the mask variable by itself is enormous.
Even if it were rock solid, it would only apply to close, indoor, long-term, regular contact, nothing like mass public mask mandates.
A hundred crap studies don't make for one good one, less so now (in 2020) that many if not most public health researchers are highly politically motivated (cf., Surgisphere). And the opinions of public health officials who have shown themselves as a body to be little more than political activists isn't worth squat anymore.
Seems like Biden ad baiting Trump into taking ridiculous positions on masks. Also, seems to be working.
I kind of believe that Trump thinks the masks are effective because he wears one.
"Lakoff - I don't know but the science is undisputed" really?
Even 'Tim in Vermont" is sucked in by scientific literature which is subject to interpretation. Sorry Tim you need to read your own connections a appeal to authority B.S. by MIT.
"... the study showed that cloth masks did not protect against infection as well as medical-grade masks..."
"Tim in Vermont" I'll raise you several more [BTW I can send you 30 additional studies - I suspect there are 1,000s coming to the same conclusion - nonsense]:
"...As mentioned below, no study exists that shows a benefit from a broad policy to wear masks in public. There is good reason for this. It would be impossible to obtain unambiguous and bias-free results because "...Any benefit from mask-wearing would have to be a small effect, since undetected in controlled experiments, which would be swamped by the larger effects, notably the large effect from changing atmospheric humidity...as an example..."
An Unprecedented Experiment: Sometimes You Just Gotta Wear the Stupid
Baccam, P. et al. (2006) “Kinetics of Influenza A Virus Infection in Humans”, Journal of Virology Jul 2006, 80 (15) 7590-7599; DOI: 10.1128/JVI.01623-05 https://jvi.asm.org/content/80/15/7590
Balazy et al. (2006) “Do N95 respirators provide 95% protection level against airborne viruses, and how adequate are surgical masks?”, American Journal of Infection Control, Volume 34, Issue 2, March 2006, Pages 51-57. doi:10.1016/j.ajic.2005.08.018 http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.488.4644&rep=rep1&type=pdf
Biggerstaff, M. et al. (2014) “Estimates of the reproduction number for seasonal, pandemic, and zoonotic influenza: a systematic review of the literature”, BMC Infect Dis 14, 480 (2014). https://doi.org/10.1186/1471-2334-14-480
Brooke, C. B. et al. (2013) “Most Influenza A Virions Fail To Express at Least One Essential Viral Protein”, Journal of Virology Feb 2013, 87 (6) 3155-3162; DOI: 10.1128/JVI.02284-12 https://jvi.asm.org/content/87/6/3155
Coburn, B. J. et al. (2009) “Modeling influenza epidemics and pandemics: insights into the future of swine flu (H1N1)”, BMC Med 7, 30. https://doi.org/10.1186/1741-7015-7-30
Davies, A. et al. (2013) “Testing the Efficacy of Homemade Masks: Would They Protect in an Influenza Pandemic?”, Disaster Medicine and Public Health Preparedness, Available on CJO 2013 doi:10.1017/dmp.2013.43 http://journals.cambridge.org/abstract_S1935789313000438
BTW, "Tim in Vermont" I'm not an absolutist on this subject, but there's enough doubt in a in the science that nobody knows anything about virus'. The point is shutting down the whole 'World' is nuts.
Howard said...
Life is like a shit sandwich. Every once in a while you have to take a bite.
Howard, let me give you some good advice: if it looks like a shit sandwich, it probably tastes like a shit sandwich, because it's made out of shit.
It is apparent that many people with SARS-CoV-2 infection are asymptomatic or presymptomatic yet highly contagious and that these people account for a substantial fraction of all transmissions.
...
We did state in the article that “wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection,” but as the rest of the paragraph makes clear, we intended this statement to apply to passing encounters in public spaces, not sustained interactions within closed environments.
...
We therefore strongly support the calls of public health agencies for all people to wear masks when circumstances compel them to be within 6 ft of others for sustained periods.
This is a speculative observation, some may same founded on the precautionary principle, but they do acknowledge a multi-dimensional analysis is both rational and necessary.
who knew that those elderly people in the nursing homes if they had been wearing masks would still be alive today
Ah, Planned Parent, the leading cause of excess deaths by Choice. Also, outbreaks in environments with poor sanitary standards (e.g. construction sites). And, excess deaths that followed stigmatizing early treatments: border control/infection (e.g. HCQ), Zn (e.g. reproductive rites), and AZ, Ivermectin, etc. affordable, available, with well-established risk profiles, to control inflammatory responses and other unhealthy dynamics.
Life is like a shit sandwich.
The more bread you have, the less shit you have to eat.
The debates are never going to happen. I don't know how Biden is going to get out of them, but he will. I'm guessing maybe Jill Biden will have a "heart attack"?
How to Debate Someone Who Lies
Well, how will Trump debate Joe Biden.
I recently borrowed the audio version of the Coddling of the American Mind by Haidt and Lukianoff.
I was enjoying the book until Chapter 4. The chapter starts with Haidt and Lukianoff highlighting the campus violence that started in 2017, first at Berkeley in response to Milo, then Middlebury in response to Charley Murray, and then Claremont College in response to Heather McDonald.
Then Haidt and Lukianoff discuss Charlottesville. They talk about the violence. They discuss the immediate response from prominent people condemning the violence. And then I wait to hear what Haidt and Lukianoff have to say about Trump's reaction.
Will they advance the Charlottesville Hoax. They sure do.
And absolutely nothing about this -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwIU7iUfhow -- at 19.19.
Earlier this morning our distinguished host discussed reasons to vote for Trump. My reason to vote for Trump is to refute the Charlottesville Hoax. I can not and will not support the Democratic Party Joseph Goebbels School of Journalism.
So I did stop listening to Coddling for a couple of hours to digest the hoax, but I used my cognitive skills Haidt advances in his other books to overcome how upset I was that Haidt and Lukianoff perpetuated the hoax. Is that irony?
Allen S. wrote:
"Howard said...
"Life is like a shit sandwich. Every once in a while you have to take a bite.
"Howard, let me give you some good advice: if it looks like a shit sandwich, it probably tastes like a shit sandwich, because it's made out of shit."
Howard feats on the ultimate shit sandwich, statism. And the worst part he wants to force-feed the sandwich to the rest of us.
Readering said...
Seems like Biden ad baiting Trump into taking ridiculous positions on masks. Also, seems to be working.
True believers are kind of cute. Sort of like bunnies and puppies but I would not take their advice.
One example of masks as political theater (i.e. virtue signaling). Wearing a mask from the door of a restaurant to your table is required, but you can take them off at the table.
If it is that dangerous to be inside the restaurant then it should be closed. If it isn't, then the mask shouldn't be required. A restaurant table isn't some negative pressure clean zone all of a sudden because people wore masks getting to the table.
The other example is a media person wearing a mask on the street with absolutely nobody around them while on camera, then taking it off after leaving the air. See this article for example.
When Joe debated Paul Ryan, I thought he behaved like a jerk. His base thought he was awesome that night.
I find it hilarious the implication that Biden does not lie. If he wasn't Obama's VP, his career highlight would be the plagiarism that derailed his prior Presidential campaign, complete with repeating lines from said speech that did apply to the original orator but did not apply to himself. Biden's entire career is a combination of lies, flip-flops, and, on the rare occasion actually holding a firm position, being laughably wrong.
Jupiter asking Tim:
"Maybe you can explain to me, what is your endgame?"
I have asked this before without an answer that I noted at the time. If I were to grant for purposes of debate that masks really do prevent Covid-19 infections and deaths, then why not make the mandates permanent? If they prevent infections and deaths from Covid, then they must also prevent them for all influenzas and pneumonias, and those diseases will kill, on average, 50,000 Americans every single year going forward. What is the limiting principle here?
Speaking of lies and propaganda: We now have the documentary proof that Brennan and a handful of his minions at the CIA overruled their own analysts who determined Putin wanted hillary to win the election and substituted in their own lie that Putin wanted Trump to win...something all thinking people knew was a lie the day it was pushed into the media.
And then the lefties/LLR-lefties compounded that lie by getting their obama holdovers in the other relevant agencies to go along with this lie.
Then the lefties and LLR-lefties crafted another lie on top of that lie which was on top of the previous lie and the newest layer of the lie was that "17 intel agencies agreed with this (hoax) analysis".
And the media, who was in on the hoax from the very beginning, hyped it 24/7, extending the lie across the entire world.
On the other hand, Trump sometimes tweets mean things.
In a truth sandwich the President speaks two truths for every lie. That's far more truthiness than any leftist gives him credit for. How did this inadvertent admission get past the Times' 20-something censors?
narciso said...
so what was the trinity test about,
here, i'll speak SLOWLY:
trinity tested the "fat man" plutonium device
hiroshima was hit with the "little boy" uranium device... Which was NEVER tested
how did we Know that little boy would work with Uranium?
and WHY didn't we use IT with Plutonium?
short answer: Lots of research.... Which is ALL no on line
If you're going to make ONE bomb... "little boy" is the way to go
If you're going to make LOTS of bombs, you should use THAT uranium to breed plutonium
And you should learn why you need to use implosion (hint: take a class, i did)
Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...
Wisconsin has had a mask mandate for months now. Millions more Wisconsinites are wearing masks. However, hospitalization and death rates have remained remarkably consistent with pre-mandate numbers
sssh! not so loud; you'll get Tim in Vermont upset, if you start talking reality
Cognitive scientist sounds so much better than linguistics professor and Dem propagandist. Scientist, lol. It's this era's philosopher.
a 'truth sandwich' — a lie gets sandwiched between true statements."
Actually, wouldn't that be a "lie sandwich"? I mean, a ham sandwich is ham between two slices of bread, so wouldn't a lie between two slices of truth be a lie sandwich?
Oh, never mind. Expectations for Biden are so low that the media will declare him the winner if he can just stand up straight for 90 minutes. (And if he is a complete disaster, they'll just point out the moderator is from Fox News, so, no fair!)
Why don’t you link to something written in July or later that is both published science, and maintains that masks are ineffective, You guys seem to point to stuff written in March, stuff that has been all but retracted.
I never asserted that mask wearing is ineffective or effective. To be clear, I have no problem wearing a mask in indoor public environs since 1) It's not a big deal to me 2) I tend to doubt that at the very least it's harmful and it may indeed be beneficial. Basically I choose to err on the side of caution. I just generally disagree with the notion that "the science is settled" or any absolute declarations like that. As we've seen since the start of this pandemic, there's been so many reversals, conflicting studies and reports around every aspect of this virus by all sorts of experts I tend to mistrust absolutist sorts of declarations about it.
tim in vermont continues to peddle his bull shit.
Masks may reduce some contagions.
However, they are breeding grounds for others.
It's about the trade-offs and not the absolutes.
That's what all the studies said prior to 2020.
I've been made to read some Lakoff.
He's one of those repugnant types who gussy up their theories by pretending to be merely studying the Neanderthals while marketing himself as an expert available to double-dip by advising Democrats on how to defeat Republicans using "psychology science."
If Democrats didn't double dip they would barely exist.
@narciso1257--
People have probably already answered, but the Trinity test was required because the plutonium bomb was the highest-tech there was (spherical implosion) and couldn't be modeled effectively. As mentioned, the uranium bomb was simple in comparison--just shoot one mass at another.
Narr
Not a nucular physicist
"but the science is undisputed: wearing masks saves lives.'"
Your first "liar's tell": "but the science is undisputed"
I find it very amusing that the same people who claim that 2+2 doesn't always equal 4 are always so ready to tell us that "the science is undisputed".
No, it's not. And even if it was, that still wouldn't mean anything (Newton's Laws were "undisputed for decades", before we figured out that they are wrong).
The "argument from expertise" is a logical fallacy. Give the data to support your conclusion, or else STFU
tim in vermont said...
"Why don’t you ask a specific question?"
I did. What's your endgame? Assuming that everyone follows your advice and wears a mask (which is an absurd assumption), how does that make the world safe for people who are not immune to Covid-19?
Allen S: that explains why you have a shit eating grin 😬
The Biden ad has a picture of Biden wearing a mask! I guess I don't "believe in science" if I "mock" that, but it's ridiculous.
People don't see how badly he's drooling.
Mike (MJB Wolf) said...
Masks are an extension of the political theater we’re watching. Masks alone do almost nothing to prevent spread except they keep people’s hands off their faces.
Somehow you managed to state the exact opposite of the truth about masks. Face touching is far more common with mask wearing. The face is touched every time the mask is donned or doffed. Also every time it is adjusted because it’s fallen to low or ridden up to high. Or if the face gets itchy around the edges of the mask where it’s touching the face. Or if you have to adjust the mask or your glasses because your glasses are fogging up. Or......
It’s easier to tell people not to touch their face then it is to stop them. Of course you could condition them to stop touching their face by authorizing police and security guards to tase anyone doing so.
Trump is a fabulist. He knows what he says is over the top, and he expects us to know it too. Biden is a liar. He knows what he says is factually false and he expects us to believe it anyway. Big difference.
Numbers. Mass numbers, from around the world and in our different states, tell the truth about masks. The truth is that for the dreaded covid they range somewhere between useless and worse than useless. There’s virtually no difference in infection rates between jurisdictions with and with no mask edicts in effect. And in the USA jurisdictions with draconian edicts on both mask wearing and living an ordinary life have higher death rates. Because the local dictators in those areas, like Dictator Cuomo have done things like ordering long term care facilities to take in covid positive patients.
Kay said... I kind of believe that Trump thinks the masks are effective because he wears one.
I wear a mask because it is required in Arizona stores and other indoor places. I do not think that the requirement helps with transmission and is probably not constitutional, but I am trying to be polite.
Trump wears a mask when the establishment he visits asks him to. That is being polite.
Reporters who wear masks in the WH garden where they are socially distant are childish fools trying to virtue signal.
Conceptually I support masks as a measure that may add some benefit to the group, not the wearer in certain closed environments. Furthermore, in an era of heightened anxiety there may be a social benefit to wearing a mask.
Having said that I see so many outdoor situations that do NOT require a mask and that we've not well addressed and messaged. Many of Joe Biden's events (small, widely separated audience) don't require him wearing a mask. At that point he, Mr. Biden, is solely virtue signaling.
Now the hard question that I'm not hearing anyone mention is "At what level of community prevalence" do we stop wearing masks?" CDC never advocated mask wearing for the general public for flu, so will it take for us to approach that threshold?
Professor Friedman seems to be the one lying here? Isn't Biden the bigger liar of the two.
Biden lies by omission. Biden lies by misdirection. Biden lies by incomplete facts. Biden lies about the Charlottsbille hoax. How can we really trust a Harris/Biden candidacy when it is a House of Cards.
Trump deflects by humor/satire/sarcasm. Is a joke a lie? Do all Comedians lie? Trump is essential the comedian in chief but working some serious material. No doubt Professor Friedman has no sense of humor. Is that a lie? Don't brand Trump a liar just because he like everyone else told his kids there was a Santa Claus. Makes psychiatrists look silly and out of touch with the mind.
Does "Lakoff" rhyme with "pull it off"?
Asking for a friend.
Joe Biden lies as an automatic reflex. In his political commercials he is continuing to tell the brave tale about how he was "first in his family" to go to college. Except he wasn't. He made that claim back in 1987 and was eventually forced to admit that many of his mother's relatives had previously gone to college.
The first statement in a commercial he has been airing, and which aired this morning, is that "Trump is lying when he claims [Joe Biden] will raise taxes." Well, yes, Joe Biden's tax plan certainly will raise taxes, so Joe is lying about Trump's lying. Details of the tax plan are here.
There's more, but these will do for now.
The mask I usually wear to doctors' office has coffee spilled in it. I think it is a secret ingredient. I'm high risk, my wife had covid and I have not gotten it. Of course I was taking HCQ when she had it but that couldn't have had any effect. CNN told me so.
Readering: "Seems like Biden ad baiting Trump into taking ridiculous positions on masks. Also, seems to be working."
readering has proven time and again that he/she/xe will simply believe whatever he/she/xe is told.
Literally anything.
Without exception.
I guess someone had to take up the Inga slack.....
Look, Folks, the "effectiveness" of masking is irrelevant, unless it approaches 100%. If it were 100%, you could wear a mask for the rest of your life, and never get Covid. But it is, at best, around 10%. So, at some point, you are going to get Covid, unless you are immune already, as many people are. Quite possibly most people. The question is, how long are we going to keep pretending that masks are why we don't have Covid, at the cost of wrecking our economy and preventing people from getting useful medical treatments? I would suggest that the reasonable answer is "Not one more minute", but I am open to arguments to the contrary.
"Of course I was taking HCQ when she had it but that couldn't have had any effect."
Where did you get the HCQ? Oh, that's right. You are one of the people who can walk into a drug store and buy anything he likes. Lucky bastard. Even the illegal foreign Viagra sites don't have HCQ.
"I guess someone had to take up the Inga slack....."
Did Inga leave a parting message?
Did ARM?
Leftwing democratics abuse horse in Chicago
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-dreadhead-cowboy-charges-protest-20200923-zo4ahmbqtjeq3hyqvvdxhsxxyi-story.html
Why would Putin want Trump as his stooge when he's already bought and paid for Hillary? He and his minions have:
1) Hillary signed off on the Uranium One sale to Rosatom.
2) $145MM "donations" to the Clinton Foundation.
3) $500,000 speakers fee to Bill for a talk in Moscow
There are records to verify these payments. I've yet to see any records that Putin has done anything similar for Trump. In fact, Trump has cost Putin big bucks with Trump's support for oil & gas production.
The only real reason to mask up is to participate in life. Our Gov. in PA has been quite aggressive on this. If I want to go to the grocery store, mask, state store (hello Gov. Pinchot) mask, basically any public space indoors, and some outdoor farmer markets as well. It seems absurd, but I do need to do all those things, so I bought a mask which replicates the front of an M-18 Claymore, olive drab naturally.
Oh dear, the mask thing. Donning masks back in January and February almost certainly would have helped in NYC and other crowded cities, particularly in the subway and in elevators and transiting busy public spaces. You know, like the little old Asian ladies have been doing for ages during flu season. But now it's become a badge of compliance, a sign of tribal identification for the tribe of science-believing science-lovers. People look at you wrong if you walk down the street outdoors without a mask. I see people driving by wearing masks in their cars. My kids have to sit in school, on days they are in school, with masks on their faces. All fucking day, except when they eat lunch. And there's no singing allowed. What a fucking mess. I blame Lakoff: they framed masks.
Remember when Hidin' Joe Biden decreed as president he would make everyone where a mask, even out side for 3 months and that the covid virus would magically disappear after that. Good times.
This is just an example of the sort of bubbles democrats live in. They all thought this was popular. The minute they received pushback that a president had no power in the constitution to mandate that they quickly fled to a fall back position of "Oh well yeah, as president I have no power to do that but I would gently nudge people to do so". Train. Wreck.
Whatever is actually going on here is much bigger than the damn virus. I just heard credible information that McMaster University in Toronto is planning to be all online for the next five years. FIVE. YEARS.
There are much, much, much bigger things brewing, and if we methodically kick away people's ability to talk in person without Big Tech monitoring, whatever it is will be much easy to implement.
How to debate someone who thinks someone else is lying.
You'd think that a cognative scientist would be a genealogist.
Born together. co-gnate.
"how does that make the world safe for people who are not immune to Covid-19?”
I am not suggesting that people wear masks non stop wherever they go, because that’s not only uncomfortable, try doing it on a 90 degree day in South Florida, but pointless. I am only suggesting that for the duration of this mess, people be courteous and considerate of the people who are forced to work in certain closed environments, like grocery store clerks are, for example.
I have long said that people who are willing to take risks, like eating in an indoor restaurant, potentially breathing the same air as an infected, but not yet, or perhaps asymptomatic person should be free to do so. Here is a study that was done in China, where they surveil everybody all the time, and so they were able to reconstruct what happened.
https://sfist.com/2020/04/22/study-restaurant-covid-19-outbreak-in-china/
You should just know the risks is all.
If I knew the “endgame” for this virus, I would be working on getting very rich off of that knowledge, but I am not ready to throw up my hands and give up. Treatments are improving every day. It’s possible that a vaccine will come along. I don’t know about you, but I re-evaluate my positions all the time. I guess I can’t see how wearing a mask in specific circumstances is such a burden, a burden to be compared to having your car taken away, as opposed to just buckling your seatbelt. It sounds like a psycho-drama. They are. simple, cheap, and effective. There is no longer any debate about this.
Today I was. at the Dr’s office waiting room, and there was one lady probably 100 lbs overweight, an 80 year old woman who barely could make progress with her walker, and a young fit man who could have been a body double for Ryan Gosling, he had the mask under his chin even as he got up to help the little old lady with a door. What possible justification could he have had for that? Remember that I am not in Montana, or wherever where the virus is rare, I am in a county were 20 to 25 people are dying every day of COVID. Mostly like those two people I mentioned, as well as a very overweight black lady, also at high risk. I just don’t get being so cock sure that the masks are uselss as to ignore the risks to other people’s lives.
Masks are not the same as shutdowns.
but it is not undisputed that wearing masks saves lives. It is not even undisputed that the earth is a sphere that goes around the sun.
There are really very few things that are undisputed. We don't have arguments about them, because they are undisputed.
"Cognitive science" must be a field for people too stupid to do real science.
I never stop being amused at Psychiatrists getting involved in politics.
I know psychiatrists, lots of them. Most are trying to deal with their own problems. Some are trust fund kids who don't need to make a living.
"No, it's not. [undisputed]”
OK, it’s undisputed among the researchers working on this, and has been since this summer. But go ahead and give me a cite to a medical study done since July, when this issue was settled due to the WHO saying that masks were overkill, and having to walk it back the next day when the whole research community came down on their heads.
But give me your cite, or are you just the other side of the readering coin?
Finito On The Covid Nonsense
Denninger calculated that, assuming the estimated preexisting (e.g. cross) immunity is, I believe around 40% to 50%, we reach herd immunity (i.e. improbable positive exponential progression) at 2%. This figure matches the epidemiology across states, Sweden (with no official restrictions), etc. Because of mitigation strategies, bad choices, bad habits, and external factors (e.g. migration, immigration), this threshold is not reached, not reached firmly, or phase shifted, and there are spikes. He also notes what worked in Singapore:
We know how to beat this because Singapore already has and so-proved in March; cut off the route of infection from and in the health care system to the most-vulnerable people and while many people will get the bug nobody, statistically speaking, will die from it.
...
Rather than screaming at people they took what they learned from SARS and instituted militant hand-washing before and after every contact with a person or thing.
This was corroborated by Dr. David Price of Weill Cornell Medical Center in New York City, and was the protocol his team followed in professional and personal practice.
Anyway, I think I have recounted his analysis correctly, and I have posted from other sources (e.g. Yale, CDC, WHO) that are reaching the same conclusion. The threshold of herd immunity is lower than expected based on the original assumptions.
I am going to give in and respond to a poster who probably doesn’t have the IQ to understand my response, but here goes anyway.
"However, they are breeding grounds for others.
It's about the trade-offs and not the absolutes.”
Trade offs all have different magnitudes, observational studies of the real world, where mask mandates were implemented and where they were not, show that despite the fact that masks were not worn perfectly, for instance lots of people apparently need quick access to pick their noses so they leave them sticking out, and people don’t clean them, and all the rest, and still the magnitude of those effects was far smaller than the effect of reducing transmission in the general population that the mask mandates produce. Sorry that you have a hard time thinking quantitatively and so couldn’t intuit that for yourself.
If everybody wore them perfectly, this thing would be winding down a lot faster, but we live in a world with imperfect people. They still work on a population level and save people’s lives.
If only sick people wore masks, then masks would be very effective. Doctors wear masks not to protect themselves from the patient, but to protect the patient from the doctors. But policymakers don't want to allow the people to decide to wear masks if they are sick.
"If they prevent infections and deaths from Covid, then they must also prevent them for all influenzas and pneumonias, “
This is what I meant by people who don’t read the links, or don’t understand them, but still confidently bloviate. I have said that masks are far less effective on flu viruses and rhinoviruses and that the fact that they work on coronaviruses is a lucky break, probably due to static charge of the virus, I don’t really know, but it’s just lucky for us.
If you take ten seconds to look at this link, you will see that the coronavirus is the only virus stopped by a simple surgical mask of the three types tested. This is probably the fourth time I have made this point to you with this link, you are denser than readering on this subject.
I will just link the picture with the comparison of the effectiveness of masks for three virus types.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2/figures/1
"he emptied our supply of masks and other PPE and never replenished them.”
I was talking about the Obama/Biden admin. I guess I didn’t give enough context.
America's Frontline Doctors
Is another valuable resource. There is a consensus, but individual circumstances will vary. There are statistics, skills, knowledge, and best practices.
Look for "masks"
Surgical masks are designed to protect patients from a surgeon’s
respiratory droplets, aren’t effective at blocking particles smaller than
100 μm.
Filter efficiency was measured across a wide range of small particle sizes
(0.02 to 1 µm) at 33 and 99 L/min.
• N95 respirators had efficiencies greater than 95% (as expected).
• T-shirts had 10% efficiency,
• Scarves 10% to 20%,
• Cloth masks 10% to 30%, ...
Penetration of cloth masks by particles was 97% and medical masks 44%, 3M
Vflex 9105 N95 (0.1%), 3M 9320 N95 (<0.01%).
• Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in
increased risk of infection.
• The virus may survive on the surface of the face- masks
• Self-contamination through repeated use and improper doffing is
possible. A contaminated cloth mask may transfer pathogen from the
mask to the bare hands of the wearer.
• Cloth masks should not be recommended for health care workers,
particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated.
Proper use and appreciating limitations is essential to mitigate risk.
"This is a speculative observation,” n.n
No, the first article he wrote was speculative that this letter walked back and if you go to the hot link I so thoughtfully provided, you will find that he documents the studies supporting his points with hot links, something he did not do in the first article that low info right wing bloggers, and BTW Fauci, seemed to love so much because it seemed to support their biases. I think Fauci is just not very bright, because that article had so many tells that it was bullshit and he just seemed to accept it critically. One tell that always makes me suspicious is the word “clearly” because it usually means “I am not going to support this with evidence."
Last one, I can’t do this all evening:
"One example of masks as political theater (i.e. virtue signaling). Wearing a mask from the door of a restaurant to your table is required, but you can take them off at the table.”
It’s true, you have to take them off to eat. I don’t want what I am about to say to mean that I support shutdowns, but where indoor eating is banned and masks are mandated, like Massachusetts, you have fewer deaths per day in that whole state than in my county, where bars and restaurants are open. I think people should know the risks is all. It’s a compromise so that restaurants are not forced out of business. The “consistent” position would be to limit restaurants to take out and outdoor seating only. Is that what you want?
I only support mask mandates in places where people are required to go to live their lives, restaurants and even movie theaters are not that. Use them at your own risk, just try not to expose your older relatives at Thanksgiving if you are going to do that, and don’t visit mom at the nursing home. It’s not that hard.
What is really a shame is the way that in their efforts to whip global warming up into a catastrophe that justifies the end of capitalism, “science” has flushed its credibility down the crapper. But you have to make an effort to understand stuff on its merits, because the press has proven themselves to be less than useless.
Senior voters discuss Biden's "truth"sandwich
Lakoff is the "Framing" guy, right?
Yeah, he knows how to make a 'truth sandwich.' He's been telling Democrats how for *decades*. We saw a lot of that with the 1619 project - an exercise if pure framing. It was telling that NHJ's complaint was *the right's* "framing" when she deleted all references to her "founding" frame.
Tim,
I have read that paper before- it does not support what you claim it does. Read it again, carefully this time. They studied surigical masks, not the face diapers 99% of the people wearing. They also were not studying COVID-19- they were studying seasonal coronaviruses- this paper demonstrates nothing about COVID and masks, by the way.
The study does indicate efficacy against influenza viruses with surgical masks, too, so my question stands- why not make the masks a permanent mandate?
Find me a paper where this exact study was done with COVID-19 before you bloviate again.
Human beings have powerful imaginations. To imagine a thing is to give it existence in your own mind when that thing does not come from the five senses human beings use to receive information from outside the mind.
Science is "observe a thing in the natural world. Hypothesize a causal relationship. Experiment. Observe. Repeat until one event in the natural world can be decisively demonstrated to cause one event in the natural world, and not the world of the human imagination."
When you throw a ball into the air, it slows, stops, and science tells you that it changes speed based on the gravitational constant of the earth, 6.674×10−11 m3⋅kg−1⋅s−2.
Compare this to "cognitive science," which suggests that to influence others, you create "lie sandwiches."
We human beings spend only the briefest part of our mental energies on science. We live almost entirely in our imaginations. We all live life wanting love, security, money, and social status. Science can give you those only coincidentally. The world we live in is not made of science, it is made of us.
Thank God.
Where did you get the HCQ? Oh, that's right. You are one of the people who can walk into a drug store and buy anything he likes. Lucky bastard. Even the illegal foreign Viagra sites don't have HCQ.
Not any more. Even my wife, who has been taking it for years for her rheumatoid arthritis can now get on one month's supply. I was able to order it for my diabetic paramedic son and his family but that was January.
Since then, the pharmacy chains have clamped down. Gotta sell those $10,000 prescriptions, you know.
Re Tim in Vermont --
I think a lot of the states that appear to have low case counts and deaths today are those that screwed up the worst in February-April and experienced catastrophic deaths back in that timeframe. As a result, a significant fraction of their population probably already has immunity. I don't know the figures for Massachusetts, but New York is probably something like 25% overall and higher in the City. What that means is that strategies that would be only partly effective in states that weren't complete fuckups will actually work better in the fuckup states, like NY and MA.
The objective is to get it so each current infection produces on average less than one new infection. Say under neutral conditions, every infection would produce on average 5 new infections. Cut your contacts by 50%, and that's now 2.5 infections. Make everyone wear masks and 2.5 is now 1.25. If only 5% of your population was infected and is now immune, then you're at 1.25 x 95% = 1.19, so new clusters will tend to increase. On the other hand if 25% have been infected, you'd have 1.25 x 75% = 0.94, so new infections will tend to fizzle.
Put differently, I think states like NY, NJ, MA, CT that completely bungled the initial response (with a helping hand from the screwups at the CDC of course) are seeing low numbers today from a combination of (1) people being understandably more cautious about congregating in close quarters after the hell they went through as their medical system collapsed, (2) masks, and (3) a significant fraction of people already infected and recovered.
To be honest, I don't think banning indoor dining is all that meaningful as a strategy, as long as restaurants aren't overcrowded and have decent ventilation. I spent the past six months in Tokyo (until my visa ran out and I had to return) and after the end of the voluntary stay home period in April, I went to lunch/dinner with friends pretty regularly, a few times a week on average. With one exception (a special collaboration meal served in a basement restaurant where every seat was filled, people were drinking and laughing, and ventilation seemed questionable) I always felt pretty safe. There's been a contact tracing smartphone application in use since June, and my sole "close contact" appears to have been someone near me on a train one Sunday morning late in August -- nothing from restaurants. Given the timing of the notification (towards the end of the 14 day window), he/she probably wasn't even infected at the time of contact. Despite restaurants basically all being open for maskless indoor dining since May, Tokyo's case count and death count remain extremely low compared to NY, MA -- pretty much anywhere in the US. And they've been the worst in Japan.
I only wear a mask when required, if then, and I just wear the same one over and over. I really don’t care.
Folks here drooling at notion Supreme Court vacancy is the new issue that will lead Trump to second term. In reality, the economy and Trump's mishandling of covid, correctly seen as connected, continue after 6 months to lead Biden to first term. Trump talks much less of v shaped recovery and covid disappearing.
Go crazy, my usual faithful followers.
What a childish idiot.
For the intelligent folks commenting on masks: partially effective masks, or partially ineffective masks, however you want to look at, should not be measured the way they are in these studies if the objective is to understand how they might help us in a pandemic. There's a multiplicative effect of many people wearing masks: the more people wear partially effective masks, the greater the overall benefit in terms of reducing spread. I hate masks, and find it ridiculous that my kids have to wear them all day in school, at least for the days they are in school. But this isn't something a paper measuring effectiveness of a particular kind of a mask in a controlled individual experiment can shed light on. It defies common sense at this point to suggest, for example, that widespread mask wearing in NYC back in January or February would not have been impactful. Would it have been beneficial is a different question, and the herd immunity/Sweden approach folks might say counterproductive, but it would have slowed the spread. Irony is that the science-believing science lovers were the ones saying fuck masks back then, and now when it's probably not a factor here in NYC, these same science-believing science lovers are all about the masks. Fucking idiots. But that doesn't reflect on masks.
I think I've got it. Biden will claim to have COVID-19 to skip the debates.
You read it here first.
Stay crazy Readering, Biden is barely breathing.
We got this!
If the price I must pay to completely reopen the country and return to the time before we must "flatten the curve" is to wear a mask then I'm all in. Petty arguments about whether it is effective or not are just that, petty arguments. MA reports 500 new cases and 10 deaths overnight, and an infection rate of .9%. In a state with about 8 million people. I'll wear a mask to mythically protect you and me from that, just allow everything to reopen.
Getting back to Lakoff: there is nothing undisputed about masks and their effectiveness and I've ~170 comments here that prove you are lying.
a young fit man who could have been a body double for Ryan Gosling, he had the mask under his chin even as he got up to help the little old lady with a door. What possible justification could he have had for that?
Maybe he's one of the millions of people who've had Covid, recovered, and are now immune? If you're immune, you can neither catch nor transmit the virus, so wearing a mask, even if it's 100 percent effective, is pointless.
With the vaccine coming at the end of the year, by Spring pretty much anyone who wants to be immune will be. How much do you want to bet that most of the ninnies calling for mask-wearing now will still be doing so then?
Surely it’s a *Lie Sandwich*. You don’t put ham between two slices of bread and call it a bread sandwich.
(I only say this because prof Ann is usually a demon about mistaken metaphors)
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