"It felt like he started breathing again the day in-person school was canceled. He started smiling again. This happiness was profound.... [T]here’s... a group of kids who, whether because of bullying, mental health issues or simple overscheduling and pressure, struggled at school in a way that’s been made undeniable by the way they’re thriving at home amid the pandemic. Parents like me are having to contemplate whether traditional school — a staple of American childhood — in fact hurts our children.... During quarantine, Izac hasn’t just finished schoolwork with more ease — he’s dived into hobbies and subjects he’s actually interested in: mountain biking, cooking and practicing archery at the local outdoor range. He even makes his own pizza crusts and sauces from scratch. It’s been painful for my husband and me to realize that in the years leading up to this pandemic, he was driven to exhaustion every day. But, we thought, doesn’t everyone hate school from time to time? Isn’t every teenager tired? So we nudged him back onto the hamster wheel, assuming that was the alternative to becoming 'helicopter parents' who cushion and coddle their kids into lifelong dependency. We never questioned whether we were pushing him into suffering. Now we have to ask: Will we do it again when his school reopens?"
From "What if Some Kids Are Better Off at Home?/For parents like me, the pandemic has come with a revelation: For our children, school was torture" by Joanna Schroeder (NYT).
Excellent illustration by Christine Almeda at the link.
I'm sure — I hope — that Izac agreed willingly to this invasion of his privacy. It gets back at the bullies and shows him in a much nicer light that it seems he appeared at school.
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Kids happy not to be going to school. News at 11.
https://youtu.be/2RrreVthWRY
No problem...stay home and homeschool them then. If a clerk can go work in a store with thousands of people coming in...a teacher can teach in a school. NOBODY wants to catch this, and nobody WANTS to go to work...but most people need to make the money...it doesn't grow from trees...and there is no free ride. Work or don't...but don't expect us to pay you to stay home.
I am shy and reserved and quiet, and I hated the noisy, crowded regimentation of high school.
Brown shoes don't make it.
Quit school, why fake it?
Just homeschool.
Hooray there's more enlightenment about the hostilities of the school day. Back in the 80s we learned girls didn't function well but we blamed it on the boys. (thanks feminism!) Now some insight that nobody functions well. Hooray...
I'd like to think constructive changes will come about but the union-politico machine is too entrenched and too many voters are too enamored with the idea of voting for Democrats. So it will be more gee-wiz-somebody-otta-do-sumptin' then more of the same...
From K-12, I did not like school; I had a lot of friends, was good at sports and wasn't bullied (despite being a severe stutterer). I just found it almost impossible to sit at that desk all day, and found the regimen of the school day to be nearly unbearable.
I didn't have a choice though. I learned to cope with it. I'm not sure if I'm the better for it, but here I am.
It seems that the writer is a senior editor for yourtango.com, which offers tarot readings and horoscopes on its front page. Which leads to the question: who was the pretty new-agey lady in the Dem debates last year?
There are always exceptions to a one-size-fits-all school system. Good to hear of a successful exception, but this is just one parent's anecdotal story.
How many students would learn nothing if left at home?
I loved school. It’s not true that nobody likes school. Loved elementary school, loved high school, loved college. I think we force people into it though who might be better off in an apprenticeship or something. At the end of the day, people gotta work, and they gotta know how, or we starve or serve others who will find a way to make us work, if only in mines with hand tools.
I have one friend who still has a school age kid, late life surpise, she says that homeschooling was an eye-opener for her, and she doesn’t plan to go back to standard school. Her kid is a delight.
"It seems that the writer is a senior editor for yourtango.com,”
I should have known when the first thing she writes about her son is that he is “lanky.”
Wilbur said...[I] found the regimen of the school day to be nearly unbearable.
I didn't have a choice though. I learned to cope with it
In broad strokes, that's most people's experience. One of my favorite quotes from Hemingway--there is no surer guarantee of failure in life than happiness in high school.
There is a small number of kids who's school experience is so awful they are better off somewhere else. Usually because of bullying or an undiagnosed disability. Either way, the solution is better schools.
The Dominican nuns in my elementary school were, er, effective, in instilling the desire to learn...whether you liked it or not.
I'm constantly floored by the idea that there are parents so sheep-like that they have to wait for a global pandemic or an NYT article before doing the most rudimentary examination of how their child feels about their own life! It must be a brick in the face for women with 6+ years of post-secondary education, when they realize that your average GED homeschooler mom is twenty steps ahead of them.
Traditional schooling is particularly difficult for boys. Not all boys, but boys generally.
It is no secret that primary teachers favor girls, who sit quietly, do their worksheets as told and want the teachers to like them. Boys mature more slowly and are just more itchy overall. They're perfectly capable, but different.
There is some amount of socialization that is good for members of any culture, but a little bit more freedom -- which possibly could be built into our overpriced public education system -- might not come amiss in the preparation of children.
Even quality "traditional" schools are not the best solution for everyone. That has long been known, which makes it more frustrating that the teachers, who supposedly care about the students they teach, fight like hell to keep alternative methods from being put in place.
How many of the students (boys especially) who are being put on medication to keep them from being "disruptive" just need a different classroom environment? Homeschool/video school/smaller classes - plenty of options available in today's world with the technology that we have.
Very good thread on herd immunity being reached sooner than many have predicted:
https://twitter.com/JamesTodaroMD/status/1292873236716433416
Never made sense to me that, for a disease that was supposedly so contagious, more people weren't getting sick.
It must be a brick in the face for women with 6+ years of post-secondary education, when they realize that your average GED homeschooler mom is twenty steps ahead of them. [doctrev]
It must be, in theory. Not one of such women would ever come to that realization, though. It is like thinking she merely revolves around the sun -- an impossible premise, contra naturam. The GED-only mom was forced into it only because she lives in a trailer park, so it was merely a lucky accident for her; whereas the highly educated mother deduced it in her stunning, vital, and constant engagement with lived life. She is much better and never can that be questioned.
Given that teachers don't want you to know what they're teaching, sending children to public school can be viewed as child abuse.
simple overscheduling and pressure,
This part can change even if traditional school remains. You, dear parents, are the one over scheduling him and putting pressure on him. Is there a college you keep pushing him to do well enough to get into? Times you worry over him being home on a Friday night instead of out with friends? Are you gone and not available to buy him ingratiates for pizza or to drive him to the archery range?
And inevitably there is this:
“she never quite realized the extent to which her 9-year-old daughter, who is transgender, was stressed by things like the implications of using the bathroom of her choice”
Hey, homeschooling isn’t just for crazy Christians anymore, but also for crazy....
Well, my anxiety began in elementary due to bullies (some teachers, some students), trouble concentrating, and learning subjects faster than they were being taught. The anxiety never stopped. Frankly, I consider my K-12 education as prison time.
Mal is right. Tim in Vermont's personal experience notwithstanding, few boys have ever enjoyed school. And few people enjoy their jobs either. The human condition does not allow for everyone to just do the stuff they feel like doing, unless we want to live like savages again.
Parents like me are having to contemplate whether traditional school — a staple of American childhood — in fact hurts our children....
Yes, for many kids this is a fact. From bullying to the way education is done, any kids that are either brighter than average or in any way different are hurt by traditional public education.
Public education is founded [and holds to this through today] to create "acceptable workers". Not independent thinkers or to promote questioning the world. Over the last 30+ years it has gotten worse in that it is now focused on social justice, fairness of outcomes, grievances, and hating America.
Actual history, science, math, and civics are no longer prompted. The American education system gets more dollars per student than in any other country and yet the test scores and results have stagnated or gotten worse.
Modern k-12 education is nothing more than expensive day-care. Teachers are over credentialed and over union-ed. There are not enough men in teaching k-12 and not enough structure/discipline. There are too many administrators and bureaucrats. Anything and everything that could improve the outcomes is shutdown before they get started. Ending unions, having the education dollars follow the student regardless of where they go, and allow parents real school choice are just three things that will turn this all around and have zero chance of happening while the teacher's union is political and gives nearly 100% to Democrats.
"How many students would learn nothing if left at home?"
Roughly 40%. The bright students will learn whatever, the dummies just check out.
Hence, everyone must go back to school, stat.
Educational instruction should become more modular and entrepreneurial.
Why didn't the NYT write a story about how all the kids who suffered - educationally and otherwise - with remote learning?
I spoke with a senior who graduated from college this year and he said remote wasn't the same and not good.
“ teachers, who supposedly care about the students they teach, fight like hell to keep alternative methods from being put in place.”
They were happy as could be to try alternative and completely ineffective ways of teaching math. My daughter was one of the guinea pigs (this in NYC). I, no math genius, bought homeschooling math books and taught her.
The writer sounds extremely privileged. I hope she is examining that.
"Piper was thrilled to be in charge of her own schedule, get the sleep she needed and choose which friends to communicate with,"
Good for Piper. Would that adult life be be so accommodating.
The NYT is diversifying. Not long ago I read how horrible contemplating anything BUT public schools (for other people's kids) would be for our country.
As PB said above. Government schools are child abuse.
Good article, except for the obeisance that must always be paid to the Establishment party line, to wit: "Because of budget cuts, many public schools find themselves jamming 27 or more kids into classrooms and teachers are forced to “teach to the test,” which severely limits creativity and often goes against how they were taught to inspire students."
1) School budgets have been expanding for decades.
2) "Teach to the Test" is total BS. If you're ever tempted to believe this, go look up your state's competency test. It should be an embarrassment to any school system that special teaching is required to pass them -- and knowing the basic intellectual skills required to pass these tests does not "severely limit creativity;" to the contrary, it enhances it.
That is a great thread of tweets, all right! You should re-post this on any virus-related thread or even the cafe thread, where I was just wondering about some of this myself an hour ago.
---Very good thread on herd immunity being reached sooner than many have predicted:
https://twitter.com/JamesTodaroMD/status/1292873236716433416
Never made sense to me that, for a disease that was supposedly so contagious, more people weren't getting sick. [exhelodrvr1]
I hated school from day one. Twelve years of unrelenting boredom and pressure. So I sympathize with kids like the one here.
But school is real. Avoiding the real world in this way creates pseudo-creative adults with terrible social skills.
First of all, I am a public high school teacher.
I support vouchers, charters, school choice and homeschooling. I believe competition will make public schools better.
I have also been predicting that by 2050, most kids will go to school online at home. Having school in person will be seen as an affectation of the rich, and will be. I have now moved that prediction up to 2030.
My fellow teachers have no idea what their refusal to teach in person is doing to their profession. My district does however. They are desperate to end online education and to get the kids back on campus.
Hey, Teacher! Leave those kids alone!
...I feel a song coming on
"What if Some Kids Are Better Off at Home?"
Of course; it's probably true for most kids since the school environment is a stifling and boring "one size fits all" system based around the convenience of the adults.
I hated and mostly suffered in school from 1st grade to HS graduation. It bored me, dulled my senses and lowered my IQ.
In the 1st grade, there were three reading groups. I started in the first and ended up in the third. I started 4th grade a few weeks late because of a family vacation. They gave me the SRA reading test the first day back and I tested highest in the class. I quickly reverted back to being one of the worst students.
I just had no interest in what the teachers were talking about or the assignments they made us do. So I would day dream all day and would respond glassy eyed when called upon.
I graduated HS in the bottom of my class after briefly dropping out and having to go to summer school to make up failed classes. I stayed away from college for a few years. When I do go, I had no problem getting B's and usually could get an A if I tried. I ended up getting a scholarship to a good law school based on a very high LSAT score.
I know that I'm not in the majority in regards to how I reacted to schooling, but I think that there is a significant minority of kids who would be much better off with an alternative to a traditional school.
well, THERE YOU GO!
even if, the covid crisis DESTROYS the majority of americans lives....
if it helps, JUST ONE CHILD, it is TOTALLY Worth it!!
Schools were obsolete as soon as books were widely available. Depending on the location, that was around 1750.
The NYT it's running interference for the teachers unions. Virtual school was a disaster for my seven-year-old because kids that age just cannot focus on a screen for an hour at a time. In-person school does lessons in smaller doses. It's easier to focus on the teacher and the blackboard than on a talking head and a shared screen. And in virtual school, the kids all want to spend their time putting poop emojis in the chat box. Beyond that, my ADD kid needs the structure of traditional school and the socialization that comes from being around a group of other kids.
By now everyone has settled what their children are going to do. No use talking any more about that. I'd like to see some statistics on what those decisions were. In K-12 how many went for homeschooling, how many for pods, how many have crowded into Catholic schools, how many into private schools, how many into school districts that simply reopened 5 days a week, how many into some mixture of online/attendance, how many into schools that are entirely online? Covid has entirely re-shaped the educational system in this country in a matter of months. Anything that brings more parents into touch with the actual curriculum is good and this has happened. Anything that reduces the regimentation in kids' lives is good and this has happened, really, for all of them. Sports had become over-organized and overly competitive - gone. Educational reform has actually happened, that's how I see it and I want statistics on the reform. But I saw a lot of kids over the last months who were sad. Young children were happy to be with their family. But 10 or 12-year-olds and up, these are kids who want to play with their friends and in a way, I had to conclude that a lot of them want to go to school or, at least, they want something they used to get at at school or expected to get at college. The sparkle has gone out of their eyes.
wendybar (i think) said...
If a clerk can go work in a store with thousands of people coming in...a teacher can teach in a school.
HUGE difference between a clerk in a store, and a teacher in a school...
The TEACHER has a UNION. They're not there to work; they're there to pay union dues
and they can do THAT, from home
"Teach to the Test" is total BS. If you're ever tempted to believe this, go look up your state's competency test.
California used to have an exit exam in order to graduate in Math and English that was set at an 8th grade level. (Meaning you should be able to pass the test after 8th grade) The state had to get rid of it because it was preventing some students from graduating.
They were happy as could be to try alternative and completely ineffective ways of teaching math.
To be fair, that was forced on teachers by politicians. Most teachers opposed Common Core. Common Core was created by people who loved going to school, but never taught it. It was supported by the consultant industry that needs a new "thing" every five years or so to keep the contracts coming. Common Core is a superior form of education. It provides deeper meaning and insights. The problem is, it's AP level learning being forced on general education kids.
There are two huge problems in high school education today. The first is dropping general education courses in favor of college prep and higher. This forces teachers to teach to the middle. This hurts two groups of kids. The general education kids get overwhelmed and left behind, while the college prep kids get bored and lose interest. The other is the disappearance of vocational classes. Three years ago my high school had two auto shop teachers, both of which were teaching extra periods. This year we have none. We used to teach masonry. Gone. We used to teach public safety (police and fire) Gone. Wood shop and metal shop have been gone for at least a decade. Home ec was dumped five years ago. We don't even have ROTC anymore. The district mandates that every senior apply for financial aid, even if they have no plans for college. Where are our plumbers and electricians going to come from?
I read the first sentence, thought "NY Times", checked the link and checked out. Nothing new ever shows up in the NY Times.
Our school system is insisting that unlike last spring, this year's virtual instruction will be graded. This position will last until they acknowledge that a significant chunk of the students are never even joining the online classes, much less doing the assignments. Rather than fail a large number of primarily low-income students and minorities en masse, they will decide mid-semester to go ungraded.
Because of budget cuts, many public schools find themselves jamming 27 or more kids into classrooms and teachers are forced to “teach to the test,”
remember the 'good old days' ? back before the 'budget cuts'??
back when y'all were in grammar school?
How many kids in your classes back then?
For ME; Each classroom had 30 desks, in a 6X5 array. Most Classes were full.
serious question:
Does the teachers union want SMALLER CLASS SIZES to help the kids? Or to employ More teachers?
hint kids don't pay union dues
I hated the time waste of school, but the truth is I was a lazy fuck, and if I had been allowed to stay home and do on-line, I would have spent all day goofing off.
Amexpat, your post sounds like it was written for or about me.
Wait, I thought the prog party-of-science line was that anecdotes aren't data?
Let's do a study, shall we, comparing kids who flourish at home vs. those who are miserable? Controlling for income and family harmony, of course.
The first is dropping general education courses in favor of college prep and higher. This forces teachers to teach to the middle. This hurts two groups of kids. The general education kids get overwhelmed and left behind, while the college prep kids get bored and lose interest. The other is the disappearance of vocational classes.
This. IMHO we should get rid of the advanced courses and simply allow the smart kids to test out of those classes. Passed everything by age 16? Good. Have fun in community college, or stay in HS for another two years and take vocational classes.
The NYT. This is only there, now, to support the teachers' unions. But suport home schooling as a matter of principle for those kids and families who would benefit? NEVER!!!
The consistent ptinciple, if I haven't made myself clear, is supporting teachers unions.
When they want everyone forced into their schools--YES!
When they want everyone forced out of their schools--YES, again!
"Either way, the solution is better schools."
Now you're just being difficult...
NYT, because of its rabid TDS, wants schools to remain closed — so here comes the litany of schools bad for the kids. Do it for their sake. Come 11/3 — get off your Kirsten you lazy bum, only if TDS remains
What Maybee said. Our kids attended an academically rigorous school when we lived out west. Our kids never had a problem getting the work done because we only had piano as an extra curricular activity. Less busy, more sleep, more time to just be kids.
We're going to homeschool now. Now I'm thinking of doing some more activities. We'll have more time.
Solution: choice.
Slimmed-down public, private/charter, online, home, pods--all with equal voucher-style funding or property tax cuts.
Basic error in WuFlu response: having traditional teachers migrate online. Requires different skill set.
Solution: fire and hire teachers to fit new circumstances.
A conservative can dream, can't he?
"But school is real. Avoiding the real world in this way creates pseudo-creative adults with terrible social skills."
Working in mines in the Congo is real. Getting pimped out as a 14-year old is real. And so on. Hopefully avoiding some of the "real" world is a good thing. Homeschooled kids usually have vastly better social skills as they are not forced to relate to their own cohort all day. Finally, if you want creative kids, homeschool them. Voice of experience.
These types of lies and smears of alternatives to the government schools must always be answered. Yes, one size does not fit all. However, there are different "sizes" of homeschool as well. Poor Abe Lincoln, bet he didn't know he was a pseudo-creative adult with terrible social skills.
Reading the article I noted that all the precautions are aimed at preventing cases of covid among school children. But in Milwaukee there have been zero deaths from covid in the 0 to 20 age lane and very few in the 20 to 60 age lane. So why the fear? The actual fear the real people I know have is that they or their children will pick up the disease at school and give it to an older person they know, most likely their parents, and the older person, Mom or Dad, will die. That's where the concept of hot spots would help. Instead of thinking that all older people look the same, older, and all are equally at risk, you learn the actual risk. Something like 90% of those who died were over 65, so over 65 is risk 1. Most lived in Milwaukee or Dane County, that's risk 2. Something like 50 to 80% of those who died were in nursing homes or old-age homes. That's risk 3. Almost all had a co-morbidity which most commonly was hypertension or diabetes or morbid obesity. Hypertension or diabetes or morbid obesity. That's risk 4. So far there have been 998 deaths in Wisconsin which is about 200 more than the average annual number of deaths from flu (762). So if you have relatives or friends with those risks and if covid spreads via schools to adults and through adults to the older person at risk then there is a somewhat greater chance that the older person will die of covid+ than of the flu. Older people outside Milwaukee or Dane County without hypertension or diabetes are not at a great risk and those communities should live normal lives. And these hot spots could and should be further refined. The focus should be on getting assistance to those in Milwaukee and Dane County who have hypertension or diabetes (many of whom are minorities) not on closing the public schools in Milwaukee and Madison. Unfocused public health interventions twice harm the minority communities - they ignore the need to get hypertension and diabetes down and they leave the children uneducated. And we should be clear that When governors or mayors in the name of public health stoke the fear people have of harming older relatives and use that ramped up fear to destroy economies and schooling rather than focusing on hot spots, such actions are harmful, unnecessary, arbitrary and unjustified from the point of view of public health. The legislature should act when the governor abuses the public health mandates and force him to concentrate on assisting hot spots rather issuing general orders damaging to the economy and the schools.
I went to Catholic schools and enjoyed school. My Catholic high school was not really aimed at college prep but did OK. I sent my kids to private schools as I was not impressed with public schools and could afford it. They pretty much liked school. My younger son has friends from high school and they are in their 50s. I would like to send his kids to private school but the OC private school he attended now costs more than most colleges.
The teachers' unions are committing suicide. Typically, they cannot see it coming.
Izac, my lanky, serious-faced 15-year-old
Jesus Christ! Why didn't they just spell it "iZac", you know that's what they were thinking.
And don't tell me that fucked up name isn't part of the problem.
I love how the NYT's always inserts these little personal stories into news articles. But I'm always curious as to how the particular people get chosen. How did the reporter know about Izac (i thought it was spelt Issac but what do i know), for example? Was he a relative/Friend of someone at the Times? I assume so. The other thing is the type of people who appear in these stories always seem to be cut from the same cloth as the reporters at the NYT's. Liberal, well-to-do Bourgeoisie, who are usually members of the "chattering classes". Lots of Jews and Episcopalians, very few Baptists or Lutherans.
Anyway, i think the amount of bullying in school is overrated. But I only know what I know. My own experience, and that of my relatives/Friends, is that if you fight back the bullies go pick on a softer target. Dealing with bullies is a learning experience.
Class size is overrated. First, if you have a bad/mediocre teacher having him give more attention to fewer students won't help. Second, reducing the class size from say 30 to 25, isn't big enough to make a difference. Maybe cutting it from 30 to 18 would.
Finally, i don't think there's a big difference between 40 and 25. Having 25 is too many and increasing it to 40 is too many.
No problem with schools staying closed as long as the teachers aren't paid.
"Parents like me are having to contemplate whether traditional school — a staple of American childhood — in fact hurts our children."
No kidding. If your kids aren't criminals, don't send them to prison.
I had plenty of friends in school who would have been happy to be anywhere else. I remember getting to college and suddenly being surrounded by people who liked school, mostly, and it was a revelation. This was before every kid was somehow obligated to go to college and a high school education was widely seen as a direct step to a decent job that could support a family. It still is that, but people seem to want more for their kids than their happiness, I guess.
I have read a lot of Hemingway, and I get the impression that he studied when he was in high school. I think he was talking about social life in high school, which for me was just as much hell as it was most people, likely worse.
"Now you're just being difficult...”
What was it the mayor of Chicago said yesterday? “Don’t bait me!"
I went almost immediately from a Jesuit high school into basic training. I wasn't fond of either experience, but basic training was nowhere near as stressful as high school. The thing about basic training is that everyone was miserable, and that was kind of comforting. In high school, there were actually some people who seemed to enjoy the experience. I always had the sense that I was doing it wrong or that I was out of place in high school..... I suppose all that adolescent misery helped to build character. If I had stayed home during those years and internet porn was available, I don't think I would have found time to memorize all those irregular Latin verbs.
Schools have been closed in Sweden on summer break since June 10, BTW, and are just re-opening. So the Swedish numbers should be read in that light. Maybe they are done with it already, having killed off so many of the vulnerable. I am going to wait to see the flu season numbers before I jump on board the “Let’s pretend nothing is happening” train. But if Sweden’s numbers hold through re-opening of the schools and the return of inside weather, I will change my mind, likely.
I have no opinion on whether schools should open or close, I have no dog in that fight. But there are a lot of questions to be answered in the long run.
https://infosurhoy.com/news/swedens-50-multisystem-inflammatory-syndrome-children-cases-can-be-linked-to-covid-19-report/
It’s only 50 children so far. We can wait to see what the number is once it has worked it’s way through the whole population of children. I would think parents sending their kids back to school would want at least to know the risks.
" I don't think I would have found time to memorize all those irregular Latin verbs.”
Think of memorizing those irregular verbs as lifting weights, and it all makes sense. What is the point of lifting a barbell, after all?
Anybody who spells "Isaac" "Izak" isn't worth paying attention to.
My fellow teachers have no idea what their refusal to teach in person is doing to their profession. My district does however. They are desperate to end online education and to get the kids back on campus
Good for your district, but the ship has probably already sailed. In 10 years we'll look back at 2020 as the end of public education. The amount of discussion around "options" has already started the preference cascade. Parents who are used to just sending their kid to school now all of a sudden are thrust into a new paradigm.
High school became pretty great when it occurred to me that I could leave and walk home whenever I wanted. One hundred and twelve classroom absences first semester of senior year and straight A's.
The thing that strikes me about home schooling is the sheer amount of excess time it creates. What are kids DOING is school all day?
Like most people here, I'm on the right side of the bell curve (people who read blogs generally are). I was bored to death in school, but all my classmates could do the work and graduated.
What are kids doing in school that someone in high school can't pass an 8th grade reading test? I can understand vocabulary issues; kids that don't read outside of school are going to have a small vocabulary, but somehow I don't think "magic" vs "prestidigitation" is the problem, here.
In broad strokes, that's most people's experience. One of my favorite quotes from Hemingway--there is no surer guarantee of failure in life than happiness in high school.
Cite please.
Kai Akker said...
That is a great thread of tweets, all right! You should re-post this on any virus-related thread or even the cafe thread, where I was just wondering about some of this myself an hour ago.
---Very good thread on herd immunity being reached sooner than many have predicted:
https://twitter.com/JamesTodaroMD/status/1292873236716433416
Kai Akker - thanks for that - hope you can reintroduce this into a cafe thread for further discussion. Might explain the Democratic walking back on their position of not reopening schools now. What I have noticed is that the states that have a curve that shoots straight up (45% slope) to a tall peak then have a rapid decrease the other side of the curve and come down to the base line. Other states have not had that fast run up - while their numbers/M are low, it is becoming a long,slow,extended,tedious burn.
Unknown = The thing that strikes me about home schooling is the sheer amount of excess time it creates. What are kids DOING is school all day?
I was a stay at home parent and had the opportunity to volunteer at the grade school level for many years. Also knew several families (quite a few at church) that homeschooled. They found that they were usually done by noon. The afternoons were for activities organized by their network of homeschoolers. The YMCA had a activity very similar to Phy Ed. The art museum offered an art class.
Several observations. Home schooled kids are a pretty small class size - some of the families that come to mind had at least 4-5 kids. And due to the age range, the younger kids were being modeled by the older kids. And the older kids were able to mentor the younger siblings without it affecting their own progress.
But after volunteering, what really opened my eyes was how much wasted time there is in a day. Every movement of the students results in a pause. Kids enter the classroom at the beginning of the day. They leave the classroom for the specials (art, music, phy ed, library time, testing in the computer lab, etc.). Each time the kids are moved from one room to another it takes at least 5-10 minutes to get the kids seated and settled down. Then, during class time, any kind of interruption presents the opportunity for a pause. The principal stopping in, a kid being disruptive, a kid being really disruptive that someone has to come into the room to remove them, etc.
"There are two huge problems in high school education today. The first is dropping general education courses in favor of college prep and higher. …The other is the disappearance of vocational classes."
Why did this happen? It's insane.
"But school is real."
How so? I've found nothing in adult life that resembles it.
Maybe time has changed everything. Drugs were just entering my high school when I left. I didn’t personally know anybody who used drugs until I left for college. When I was in college, cheating was frowned on not just by faculty, but by everybody, and pot was a minor recreational distraction for weekends mostly.
I went back to college a decade later to study computer science, and cheating was rampant and the faculty didn’t really seem to care beyond pro forma “warnings."
Part of the problem is that in the ‘60s and ‘70s, high school dropouts had little problem finding work. Now all of these entry level jobs into the trades that only required a strong back and a willingness to work are taken up by illegals, keeping people in school who have no interest in it.
Until it was changed, late 60s-early 70s, being in college got you a draft deferment. Because of this, universities slowly began to tolerate cheaters, dopers, slackers, and all kinds of losers because nobody wanted to be responsible for sending them to die in Vietnam. That was the beginning of grade inflation and it never went back to normal even after the draft rules changed and the war ended.
Now, the Americans With Disabilities Education Act makes it illegal to weed out the mentally ill.
I have since met college graduates who cannot read or write standard English, or carry on an adult conversation.
Ah the great "socialization" argument for sending your kids to school. As homeschoolers we were asked about this repeatedly. My answer eventually came around to: "Yes, I'm concerned about socialization also, especially for school kids who become so peer dependent they can't think for themselves." My kids developed the ability very quickly to interact with adults.
As for homeschooled kids wasting time: My oldest dove in, learning latin and then Greek and writing tomes about whatever interested him. He graduated with distinction from UW with degrees in Latin and Greek (the school had to repopen the GreeK major in order to grant him the degree). My second son spent most of his time blowing off his math and reading and staring out the window, or practicing his drums, or rushing around outside. Today he has a film degree and is an electrician. My daughter just graduated from a local Catholic university and is starting grad school in September. My boys always complained that "all she ever did was play all day!"
Ah the great "socialization" argument for sending your kids to school. As homeschoolers we were asked about this repeatedly. My answer eventually came around to: "Yes, I'm concerned about socialization also, especially for school kids who become so peer dependent they can't think for themselves." My kids developed the ability very quickly to interact with adults.
As for homeschooled kids wasting time: My oldest dove in, learning latin and then Greek and writing tomes about whatever interested him. He graduated with distinction from UW with degrees in Latin and Greek (the school had to repopen the GreeK major in order to grant him the degree). My second son spent most of his time blowing off his math and reading and staring out the window, or practicing his drums, or rushing around outside. Today he has a film degree and is an electrician. My daughter just graduated from a local Catholic university and is starting grad school in September. My boys always complained that "all she ever did was play all day!"
Ken of TX: Well, I guess you had to be subjected to the shitty choices that only young males faced in the late sixties and early seventies; either you enrolled in a college program that you may or may not be ready to embark upon or you got your sorry young ass drafted and, risked having it blown away based on some Ivey League prick's domino theory or nation building theory that he has sold to every Democratic or Republican administration during this period. Donald Trump is a flawed human being (like the rest of us), but I have come to support him based on his policies and actions, including, especially, the withdrawal of our troops in the Afghanistan Quagmire. When I was in school during this period, I mused over the unfairness of the conditions of that deferment towards the rural boys and ghetto lads that were denied the opportunity to avoid death and dismemberment for strategic goals. I knew a lot of guys in school with me at that time and, I gotta say, whatever their reasons for being there, they were able to hack it just fine. BTW, I was there, I've never cheated my work in class, I wasn't raised like that, and no slacker, worked a job through school, drew a paycheck as an editor on the University newspaper, and managed a social life as a member of a national fraternity. I can assure you that I'm capable of writing and speaking in Standard English, but I'm not particularly interested in carrying a conversation with a judging asshole like you.
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