GOP @RepLouieGohmert, who just tested positive for COVID-19 tells a reporter he blames wearing a mask for his result: "I can't help but think that if I hadn't been wearing a mask so much in the last 10 days or so, I really wonder if I would have gotten it." pic.twitter.com/S6l2xU2oiL
— The American Independent (@AmerIndependent) July 29, 2020
July 29, 2020
The science musings of Louie Gohmert.
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Supposedly 'science' tells us masks are the difference between life and death but it is kind of stupid to see us all with the masks. All day we're touching stuff/mask/stuff/mask, putting the masks in our pockets/purse/table on and off all day. Surgeons have to step out if they touch them when they are on their face and yet...
That’s not bad science. It’s current WHO advice not to wear a mask unless one is symptomatic. Healthy people get almost zero benefit from a clean fresh mask and it is a liability after a single use. In many cases the mask serves to trap and concentrate harmful bacteria and viruses. The science is decidedly not with the mask NAZIs except for the tiny portion that are clean and properly fitted.
I wore the same Walgreens mask from March to May. Just kept it in the car and used it when I needed to. My wife went apopleptic when I told her, to her that mask was full of corona virus. It finally broke when the dog sat on it and wouldn't move.
I have tested negative twice, btw.
I miss that old mask.
The really comical thing is that clearly no one knows if it's bad science or good science. 21st century, Baby!
"I can't help but think that if I hadn't been wearing a mask so much in the last 10 days or so, I really wonder if I would have gotten it."
Huh? Why would he conclude that? Was he behaving more recklessly because he felt safe with a mask on or something?
Masks aren't magic. Obviously they don't guarantee that you won't get infected. If you closely interact with an infectious individual, I could see how if you touch your face to remove your mask you could transfer virus particles into your mouth and/or nose. But who knows?
Probably doesn't matter one way or the other.
Masks don’t prevent one from getting coronavirus, they merely reduce the risk that one will pass it on if one has caught it.
It’s telling that Althouse picks on a Republican. Democrats say things every bit as scientifically foolish.
Louie ain't wrong.
Masking interferes with normal mechanisms of clearing nasopharyngeal contaminants- instead of sneezing or coughing infective material free, it collects it in the most convenient location to inhale it again to give it another chance to establish itself as an invasive infection rather than a contaminant. We accept this because we are told, without evidence, that it keeps other people from getting sick.
Masking also increases face touching, which is a proven way to increase infections.
Louie ain't wrong.
Sure, why not? Absent the mask, he might have done something differently and that something might have made the difference in his exposure. Maybe.
Apparently you don't have to be particularly bright to discern that Jim Comey is a lying crapweasel.
Could Face Masks Be Spreading the Coronavirus?
The article includes the following passage.
.... Once upon a time, I was a U.S. Army surgical technician. Part of my training was in face mask hygiene and sterile technique. In 1966, in an evacuation hospital in Korea, I would do a rotation in intensive care dealing with infectious disease cases. Later, in college, I majored in biology, which included microbiology. Because of this background, I view the world differently from how most do as it pertains to the transmission of disease.
So imagine my shock when I went grocery shopping after this viral panic hit. Here were people with face masks and nitrile gloves — their hands all over their face masks, pulling them up and down, rubbing their eyes. They played with their smartphones, touched everything in the store, and acted as if they came from the planet Krypton. Holy moly! This store was full of potential Typhoid Marys.
So now, here we are months later. Has anything changed with these folks? No. Even more unsettling, the experts appear to be grasping at straws, adding more confusion to an already confused populace. One of those straws: face masks. ...
In June of 2018, five researchers published a study titled "The Spread of a Norovirus Surrogate via Reusable Grocery Bags in a Grocery Supermarket." What they analyzed was the possible spread of a norovirus via reusable grocery bags. Think "bring your own bag" (BYOB). They used a viral surrogate, a virus that infected only bacteria, and contaminated reusable bags with it and had volunteers shop at three grocery stores. The result? They demonstrated that the viral surrogate in the bags was spread throughout the stores, with specific areas of high concentration.
So now, in 2020, here's my concern: we may have virus-contaminated face masks worn by people with absolutely no concept of face mask hygiene and viral contamination. They are unwitting agents for spreading this pathogen.
Is anyone looking at this? If so, I'm not aware. I'd say the time is right to conduct an experiment modeled on the BYOB experiment. Researchers should use face masks contaminated with a viral surrogate. Then have volunteers wearing them shopping in grocery stores as they usually would. And then assess if that viral surrogate can be spread through the contaminated face masks worn by these untrained individuals. I suspect that the transmission path is from the contaminated face mask to the hands. ...
Big Mike said...
Masks don’t prevent one from getting coronavirus, they merely reduce the risk that one will pass it on if one has caught it.
It’s telling that Althouse picks on a Republican. Democrats say things every bit as scientifically foolish.
7/29/20, 1:25 PM
I’m having a hard time seeing how Althouse is picking on the Republican. Couldn’t the “bad science” tag also be referring to the science that says wearing a mask makes you safer? She doesn’t specify where the bad science is coming from. So it looks like a pretty neutral post to me.
Okay all you smarter-than-thou commenters, if Louie is so dumb, point out exactly what he said that was dumb and why you say so. Be sure to cite any science advice you relay. I'm relying on WHO and CDC guidance myself.
Gohmert Pyle: "Surprise, surprise, surprise"
Would be interesting to know how many maskers go about their business per normal despite being sick, because they think they have it ...covered.
"...results caution against the use of cloth masks...Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection."
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577?fbclid=IwAR2Df4n5BvsPVBkssN07UrHLeSlH0I5PJSHlwHihO1uUmadC4RYwGsoQN_U
what are the stats re: Muslimas who always cover their face?
Virus transmission in general in these communities must be lower, no?
just kidding.
"I can't help but think that if I hadn't been wearing a mask so much in the last 10 days or so, I really wonder if I would have gotten it."
I read that as a hypothesis, actually.
What is the science behind it?? Same as the science that says schools should open but the teachers unions refuse unless they get their demands for social justice met???
Out for a stroll today I saw an old, very overweight man with a cane walking alone on an empty track, wearing a mask. ?!
I appreciate the advice of wearing masks to collectively prevent the spread of COVID-19, particularly from asymptomatic individuals (but really from anyone).
Like everything, there are tradeoffs to the individual and the collective.
One tradeoff to the individual is that wearing a mask could increase the individual's chance of getting COVID-19 from touching one's face without handwashing.
Masks may be collectively good though have individual risks.
None of this is simple.
Everything in the world has risk and rewards, everything involves tradeoffs.
He's a Congressman. Since when do we expect any level of scientific expertise from Congress? AOC? Hank Johnson? Sheila Jackson Lee? C'mon man. Gohmert is in good company.
1) A mask makes you get much closer to people than you otherwise would go.
2) If you touch an infected surface where does your hand often go afterward? Touching your mask is worse than touching your face. You effectively put the virus on a personal inhaler. Sound smart?
We will find out in few months how bad the idea of masks was as well as many of the other mitigation ideas, and probably the idea of mitigation itself, but the losses will never be answered for or even admitted by those who caused it.
I require masks at my business because otherwise my government will fuck us all over. I personally wear a clear face shield. I forget I'm wearing it, and it does not tempt me to touch my face. It also brings my air in from behind me, and directs my breath backward and downward. None of it is forced at me or others through a dirty damp petri dish on my face. All clear advantages over masks.
St. Fauci himself at some point said masks could do more harm than good, due to people being prone to putting their hands to their faces while adjusting the masks.
My favorite mask lie is the one told because of the scientific reversal. We lied because we wanted the store of masks for doctors and nurses. LOL. Doctors and nurses do not wear the chickenshit masks the public buys and wears. If you go into surgery and see them wearing those get up from the table. Fast.
My wife and I went out of our way to acquire masks that read "Trump 2020". We figure if enough people respond to the demands of the Mask Nazis by putting those on, with a beatific smile to boot, this nonsense will finally end soon.
Note as well that we no longer are advised to wash our hands every five minutes.
Show me a member of congress with a net worth of less than a million dollars and I'll show you either a bad investor or an honest man.
Gohmert's net worth (according to watchdog groups in 2012) is +/- $200,000 while the average Republican in the house is more than $6 million.
Contrast that to Pelosi who is worth roughly $160 million, which is why she has such a keen understanding of the common man...
Gomert should have worn a mask with the Norwegian flag on it
...Then they would have asked him to remove it!
first Heg, now this. Why are Norwegians so racisss??
On the other hand there is this article in the CDC'sjournal of emergent and infectious disease (EID) titled
"Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures
by Editors, wwwnc.cdc.gov
May 1, 2020"
Key takeaway paragraph (shorter version "face masks have no effect in reducing transmission") :
In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks (RR 0.78, 95% CI 0.51–1.20; I2 = 30%, p = 0.25) (Figure 2). One study evaluated the use of masks among pilgrims from Australia during the Hajj pilgrimage and reported no major difference in the risk for laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infection in the control or mask group (33). Two studies in university settings assessed the effectiveness of face masks for primary protection by monitoring the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza among student hall residents for 5 months (9,10). The overall reduction in ILI or laboratory-confirmed influenza cases in the face mask group was not significant in either studies.
John Henry
I think the false security is a pig part of it. I notice when I have a mask on that I subconsciously get much closer to people and without one I keep my distance. I do feel much less vulnerable, and it's bullshit, because the virus is 50X smaller than the effective pore size of even triple layer masks. It's equivalent to a gnat going through a chain link fence.
If you sneeze or spit while talking then sure the mask stops that from flying out, and prevented it for that one second, but now it's in the mask being pushed out with every breath the rest of the day, and not just at the person who was saved by the mask, but now at everyone you pass that day. Gnats being blown out through a chain link fence all day with the rest of the people you talk to, and who you falsely feel safe talking much closer to. Think about what you are being forced to do, and how little thought it was given. They had to do something, and everyone says masks help. Did they care about you or did they need to cover their ass with something, anything to avoid being called irresponsible. I understand the impulse, but a little courage would have done the people a lot better, but it wasn't us they were thinking about.
Checking his bio.... Lawyer. Explains a lot.
"I wore the same Walgreens mask from March to May."
Considering the relative size of the virus and the mask pores, it would make no difference even if you turned it inside out every other day to freshen it up.
Just kept it in the car
in your car; hanging from the read view mirror, is Probably THE BEST PLACE TO KEEP IT
Lots of Sun (with a lot of UV, even through the window tint)
REALLY HOT, a hundred and 10, maybe a hundred and 30?
It's going to dry out, be bombarded by (some) UV, and roast in the heat
It's Not an autoclave, it's an auto; but we're talking wimpy virus, not brawny bacteria
Dr K? any comments?
"It’s telling that Althouse picks on a Republican. Democrats say things every bit as scientifically foolish."
Ever hear your average Democrat hold forth on economics? It's a bit like listening to a lecture on Advanced Calculus from the Banjo Kid from DELIVERANCE.
It’s current WHO advice not to wear a mask unless one is symptomatic.
You are simply wrong (lying, ignorant, don't care, or maybe all three) about that.
When I was in NC last month I bought a Walgreens recommended face mask. It is a stretchy tube of spandex about the consistency of panty hose.
It is dark blue and looks opaque. But it is sheer enough that when I pull it up over my forehead, covering my whole face, I can see well enough to read the Althouse blog on my phone.
Yeah, covering my whole face freaks people out. That's why I wear it that way. Fuck'em.
The post office refused to serve me until I pulled it down. Then they made me pull it up again but only over my mouth and nose. It's hard to please some people.
Some stores object, others let me wonder around with my whole face covered.
Because it is like pantyhose, it is remarkably cool and easy to breathe through.
Next: I'm ordering a plague doctor mask (a big bird beak) and steam punk goggles. I doing it via the portal so if I get arrested I can name Ann and Meade as accomplices.
John Henry
Did he wear goggles? Can you breath through it? Can you smell through it? It may well be true. As noted above, masks have limited utility and must be properly fit, used, and disposed. They act as collectors, which can produce a viral load that overwhelms even healthy individuals who are otherwise at low risk. They induce touching including adjustments. There is no clinical evidence of their efficacy in general use. Finally, we must consider disparate content and construction quality. And, perhaps, mask diversity, for people with that character orientation.
So what are his symptoms? Is he actually sick?
Maybe it’s different than those women who get raped and don’t get pregnant because their bodies shut that whole process down. His body couldn’t shut the a Covid down, eh?
Maybe it's like spinning out in snow right after you started driving your new 4WD. You still have to be careful.
Well no wander!
I saw his Twitter statement on this and thought it was much better laid out. He is questioning whether, because wearing a mask often causes the wearer to adjust the mask, this is actually causing more contaminants to the face. I think that's a very good question! It is really hard to wear a mask and not be touching your face often.
In any case, I deplore the Karening that goes on when someone who is not a good foot soldier to the cause gets COVID-19. Realizing that there are many, many liberals out there who would celebrate if a non-conformist, contrarian, or just plain old Republican died of COVID-19 is one of the saddest things I've experienced about 2020. We've lost a great chunk of our humanity.
Maybe his mask was too tight and he is now suffering from mental impairment due to oxygen deprivation.
We know from Fauci that wearing a mask is absolutely necessary -- except when it is not.
And you "know" this is "bad science" based on what metric?
If anyone has links to any serious peer reviewed journals showing tha mufflers ("face diapers" in Holland) serve any useful purpose outside of a medical setting, I'd love to see a link.
Something more sciency than "The Fauch sez..."
John Henry
If I wear a mask it protects other people from getting anything from me, but I’m not sure how effective it is at protecting me. The virus can enter my eyes, perhaps my ears. And I end up touching my face much more often when wearing a mask.
So what are his symptoms? Is he actually sick?
Good question. SARS-CoV-2 ("HIV") is the virus. Covid-19 ("AIDS") is the disease. If he is infected, the disease may not be viable. He may be one of the 99+% who will be infected but the disease does not progress to cause injury or death. Her Choice.
"Maybe it’s different than those women who get raped and don’t get pregnant because their bodies shut that whole process down. His body couldn’t shut the a Covid down, eh?"
Whoopi wants to know, was it 'rape-rape'?
Nonapod said...
Huh? Why would he conclude that?
First, he did not conclude that, he simply wondered that. Second, as he clearly explains in the video, putting on/taking off/adjusting results in face touching, which can result in spreading COVID-19 from your hands to your face, resulting in infection.
I'm not saying he's right, or that the benefits of masks to society don't outweigh the risks. Just saying his statement is not, on it's face, stupid or anti-science.
I want citations to the scientific studies that support masking the healthy.
I know that before 2020 the evidence was against masks.
I have been waiting months and nobody ever responds with a respected journal article.
He has science on his side. Before it got politicized in 2020, every scientific study and assessment advised against masks for virus. Every one.
Isn't it funny that people in our society today who are always wrong on the science keep harping on about science? Climate science, covid, gender fluidity. It's bad enough that they're so damn stupid. Do they have to be so full of hubris?!
Here's where I come to for Coronavius prevention tips.
Anyone (not in a bubble) can get Coronavirus. That's why it's best not to pontificate on the subject. Like a certain Member from Texas.
His science is as good as the mask wearing advocate's science.
"We've lost a great chunk of our humanity."
If you're talking about the Karens, I doubt there was much there in the first place.
bagoh20 said.."I wore the same Walgreens mask from March to May."Considering the relative size of the virus and the mask pores, it would make no difference even if you turned it inside out every other day to freshen it up.
To be more precise, I would wear it white side out on even days, then turn it upside down from the 4th to the 7th days, then repeat. I am all for saving the planet by reducing waste.
Doctors don't walk around with the same mask all day. They change them after each patient they see, because the masks get contaminated after a while. If you, as a non-medical person, are walking around wearing the same mask all day, you are just picking up whatever contamination you come into contact with and concentrating it. Same thing with latex gloves. If you wear gloves and go around touching things with them, the germs from all of the things you are touching are going onto your gloves and then back onto the next things you touch. Both masks and gloves need to be changed frequently to be effective. Otherwise, you are better off without them and just washing your hands frequently and keeping several feet away from other people, if you can, and wearing a mask briefly if you must be in closer contact with other people.
"mask NAZIs"
I got reprimanded at work for saying this. I weep for our culture!
"I think the false security is a big part of it. I notice when I have a mask on that I subconsciously get much closer to people and without one I keep my distance."
An excellent observation and easily observable. Once mask wearing became prevalent, distancing went out the window. Go to any supermarket.
Maybe Althouse could have a "not exactly science" tag instead of a "bad science" tag. Or maybe a "not science like chemistry, but science like gender science" tag. "Cause that's exactly where we are with this.
The Republicans are working just as hard at losing this election as the Democrats, and they don’t have the cover of the media.
Shorter Gohmert: “I is a moron."
"Mike Sylwester said...
"Researchers should use face masks contaminated with a viral surrogate. Then have volunteers wearing them shopping in grocery stores as they usually would. And then assess if that viral surrogate can be spread through the contaminated face masks worn by these untrained individuals."
Yes! Why hasn't this been done? Why hasn't basic, obvious, high school science experiment-level research about transmission been done? It's been four and a half months!
Where are the studies on infection rates as between grocery workers exposed to the public (e.g., cashiers) and not exposed to the public (e.g., truck drivers or warehouse workers). On dining al fresco versus dining inside? On whether the virus can be transmitted on surfaces? Surely the funding is there? And a researcher can look forward to that sweet, sweet media publicity, even before peer review.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm not drawing any conclusions. I'm just pointing out that this does not make any sense!
I thought the masks were to prevent me from infecting someone else, not them from infecting me. If this is true, and people are walking around thinking the mask is protecting them, the Congressman is probably right.
If he exposed himself to unneeded risks believing that a mask was going to protect him completely, he is a moron. It’s about percentages and trying to bend the curve down. I know that stuff that is apparently hard to understand makes people angry though, but I will try again.
If person X is killed in a car crash while wearing seatbelts I guess that means seatbelts are useless in the new logic. The new logic is that you should be able to take all kinds of risks behind the wheel as long as your seatbelt is on, then when you die, people blame the seatbelt for making you overconfident.
I was pretty sure I was coming down with the Covid. Fatigue. Achey. Headache. Irritable. I thought — damn, now I'm going to have to get tested. And everything.
Then I took a good old fashioned nap. And now I'm feeling like a million bucks.
If only a mask could stop the spread of ignorance. This post, the tweet, and practically all of the comments are a contagion of ignorance. We don’t know if masks work. We don’t know if lockdowns work. We don’t know is social distancing works, We don’t know if HCQ works. We don’t know how the virus spreads. We don’t know why some people die and others have no symptoms. We don’t know shit.
Don’t kid yourself that you know anything about Covid. There are a lot of people pretending to practice science who don’t offer any knowledge. Its the opposite of knowledge. It’s a terrible state of affairs. It’s all bullshit.
Openidname: I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm not drawing any conclusions.
I am.
"Once mask wearing became prevalent, distancing went out the window. Go to any supermarket.”
I haven’t seen this, but I don’t doubt it. Where I see stuff like this, I abandon my cart and move on to a different supermarket where they take it seriously.
I thought that he did a good job at questioning the efficacy of mask wearing by the general public. There really isn’t any scientific evidence that we are safer because we all mask up, even, and maybe esp, if we use masks as we do. Heck, a lot of the masks I see are actually just bandanas or pulled up neck gators or the like. For the reasons people have posted above it is quite possible that we are dealing with cargo cult medicine- doctors and other health care workers wear masks to be safe, so wearing them must make us safer. Except that they constantly discard their disposable masks throughout the day, and many have well developed hand techniques where they don’t touch their masks all the time, but wash their hands, thoroughly throughout the day. Etc.
The gold standard in medical research is double blind testing. Any peer reviewed double blind tests being cited? Of course not. There is none. I haven’t even seen any studies where civilian mask wearers, wearing masks as our population does, fairly negligently, are compared to non mask wearers, done to any reasonable degree of statistical certainty. Esp against small RNA coronaviruses like SARS-CoV-2 that are smaller than the particulate size that the masks used are supposed to screen. What we have here is a theory turned into law by government fiat. Nothing more. And it appears to me to have maybe even less scientific basis than CAGW/CAGC/CAGCC (etc) which is the purported basis for the left trying to reorder our economy. It is not science. It is sciency instead.
"We don’t know shit.”
We know a lot about how viruses spread and there have been experiments that have shown that masks reduce the spread of COVID and all we can do is use the knowledge we have gained over the years and apply it in this novel situation. Look at the curve for deaths from infection disease over the centuries then tell me that “we don’t know shit.” You are the one spouting ignorance and using half truths to support it.
"mockturtle said...
"Out for a stroll today I saw an old, very overweight man with a cane walking alone on an empty track, wearing a mask.?!"
"Old and "very overweight" explains everything. If he catches it, he's toast. So he's erring on the side of caution.
Is he being scientific? Is he being rational? No. But he's being human.
If you notice above, the skeptics offer arguments based on facts and science, and the unquestioning conformists just make silly statements assuming things, but offer nothing intelligent or arguable. That seems too be a thing with conformists, and Althouse followed the lazy path too. Stuff like "bad science". C'mon people, at least make an effort. Will any of you refute what I and others above have argued? Do you have anything other than people told you it helped. Because other people are saying the opposite, and they have good arguments, while you resort to nothing more than appeals to authority, and how well have these authorities done so far? You willing to risk you life on their advice? They are not offering undisputed arguments or data themselves. They are just passing along what someone told them. See any danger in that? Remember what the W.H.O. told us one time, and what Fauci told us one time? Now suddenly they are right this time? What changed? Did they go back to school, maybe consulted an oracle? What was it, or did you just buy what they were selling no matter what it was?
“ If only a mask could stop the spread of ignorance. This post, the tweet, and practically all of the comments are a contagion of ignorance. We don’t know if masks work. We don’t know if lockdowns work. We don’t know is social distancing works, We don’t know if HCQ works. We don’t know how the virus spreads. We don’t know why some people die and others have no symptoms. We don’t know shit.”
We actually do, kinda, know that HCQ works. There have been reputable studies published recently that show that in certain situations it can be useful against COVID-19. Some other treatments are also showing promise. I agree though with the rest of your points.
@Freder Frederson:
It’s current WHO advice not to wear a mask unless one is symptomatic.
You are simply wrong (lying, ignorant, don't care, or maybe all three) about that.
One of the troll tells is providing a link to a giant document, when it would be just as easy to use the appropriate quote from the document in the html.
So, imagine the fun I had plowing through that thing, only to find out you are the one speaking bollocks, almost certainly because you failed to notice the distinction in the WHO report between medical professionals in health care settings and the general population.
Here is what the WHO has to say about the latter:
It’s current WHO advice not to wear a mask unless one is symptomatic.
You are simply wrong (lying, ignorant, don't care, or maybe all three) about that.
Results from cluster randomized controlled trials on the use of masks among young adults living in university residences in the United States of America indicate that face masks may reduce the rate of influenza-like illness, but showed no impact on risk of laboratory-confirmed influenza.(62, 63) At present, there is no direct evidence (from studies on COVID- 19 and in healthy people in the community) on the effectiveness of universal masking of healthy people in the community to prevent infection with respiratory viruses, including COVID-19.
"It’s current WHO advice not to wear a mask unless one is symptomatic."
Taken from this specific report, particularly pages 6-9.. Do make sure you get to the proper section. Then compare their listing of advantages v. disadvantages.
We can anticipate your apology to Mike Wolf, in as much as he related WHO guidance correctly. Right?
Well, no, since you are a troll, you will never respond on point.
Many of the people wearing masks in this study had no more training than perhaps being told how to put them on.
Even as cases rose in Massachusetts, the rate of positive tests among employees went down significantly after all were required to wear surgical masks
Boston, MA — In March of 2020, Mass General Brigham implemented a new policy: everyone working at the hospitals would be required to wear a surgical mask. At the time, the concept of universal masking was new and its potential effectiveness unclear. But now, a new study led by investigators from Brigham and Women’s Hospital and published in JAMA makes it clear: after universal masking was implemented at Mass General Brigham, the rate of COVID-19 infection among health care workers dropped significantly.
https://www.brighamandwomens.org/about-bwh/newsroom/press-releases-detail?id=3608
The problem is that the general population consists of morons, largely. The only real difference in behavior I have seen from my Democrat and Republican friends is that the Democrats pay lip service, but no more. The Democrats I know seem to be operating from the perspective that rules are for stupid people, and since they vote Democrat, they must be smart (I have noticed no correlation in apparent IQ between the parties, BTW) so they can ignore the rules.
All the more reason that we shouldn’t be sending mixed signals on mask wearing. If it keeps you from touching your face, which even a bandana will do, that’s not nothing.
@tim...
We bent the goddamn curve down months ago as we were asked to do.
It seems to me that in those early days, everyone was willing to pitch in 'for the common good.'
But keep feeding people false, incomplete, or censored information, and most people get kind of pissed off.
We can never leave our homes until scientists figure out the key to immortality.
"but offer nothing intelligent or arguable.”
I am sure you learned in your study of philosophy and logic that proving a negative is a tall order.
Freder
Thanks for the WHO link. You clearly did not read the paper on the use by the public which is at the linked site. Enlightening in a way you would not find agreeable.
"We actually do, kinda, know that HCQ works.”
Don’t stop confuse him with facts when he’s on a roll.
Quoting more fully from the WHO report to which Freder linked:
The likely advantages of the use of masks by healthy people in the general public include:
• reduced potential exposure risk from infected persons
before they develop symptoms;
• reduced potential stigmatization of individuals wearing masks to prevent infecting others (source control) or of people caring for COVID-19 patients in non-clinical settings;
• making people feel they can play a role in contributing to stopping spread of the virus;
• reminding people to be compliant with other measures (e.g., hand hygiene, not touching nose and mouth). However, this can also have the reverse effect (see below)
• potential social and economic benefits. Amidst the global shortage of surgical masks and PPE, encouraging the public to create their own fabric masks may promote individual enterprise and community integration. Moreover, the production of non-medical masks may offer a source of income for those able to manufacture masks within their communities. Fabric masks can also be a form of cultural expression, encouraging public acceptance of protection measures in general. The safe re-use of fabric masks will also reduce costs and waste and contribute to sustainability.
My bosom is heaving just thinking about all that super sciency scienc stuff!
Now for the disadvantages:
The likely disadvantages of the use of mask by healthy people in the general public include:
• potential increased risk of self-contamination due to the manipulation of a face mask and subsequently touching eyes with contaminated hands;
• potential self-contamination that can occur if non- medical masks are not changed when wet or soiled. This can create favourable conditions for microorganism to amplify;
• potential headache and/or breathing difficulties, depending on type of mask used;
• potential development of facial skin lesions, irritant dermatitis or worsening acne, when used frequently for long hours;
• difficulty with communicating clearly;
• potential discomfort;
• a false sense of security, leading to potentially lower adherence to other critical preventive measures such as physical distancing and hand hygiene;
• poor compliance with mask wearing, in particular by young children;
• waste management issues; improper mask disposal leading to increased litter in public places, risk of contamination to street cleaners and environment hazard;
• difficulty communicating for deaf persons who rely on lip reading;
• disadvantages for or difficulty wearing them, especially for children, developmentally challenged persons, those with mental illness, elderly persons with cognitive impairment, those with asthma or chronic respiratory or breathing problems, those who have had facial trauma or recent oral maxillofacial surgery, and those living in hot and humid environments.
Over to you Freder and Victoria.
I predict scarpering.
But it doesn't keep one from touching one's face. That's the point. That's Gohmert's point. And a good one, I think.
You guys are like Gomer Pyle in that poker game episode where he threw in the full house because it wasn’t a straight flush.
"But it doesn't keep one from touching one's face.”
So you are pulling down your mask to pick your nose? I thought that was why the nose peekers left their nose out, and people told me I was wrong.
disadvantages for or difficulty wearing them, especially for children, developmentally challenged persons, those with mental illness, elderly persons with cognitive impairment,
They forgot emotional impairment.
Nobody ever addresses the Brigham and Women’s study for some reason. Masks were required for everybody, not just medical professionals, everybody entering the hospital from patients to couriers.
Charming.
Cultures where mask wearing is non controversial have done better with COVID. That is known as evidence.
“Charming”
So is your argument that you can’t stop yourself from touching your face even when wearing a mask, or that you are certain others are not up to the task and so it’s all pointless?
That was the official advice just 3 months ago, that marks were dangerous. I was told that, in person, by a professor at a medical school.
To head off bullshit. I think that was bad advice. I think masks overall protect. But let’s not play dishonest gotcha games.
Even the studies that suggest the mask reduce infection show only correlation not causation. We have seen infection rate increases and decreases correlate with mask wearing. Infection rates dropped precipitously all over the country before masks became common place, and they still are only worn about 50% of the times recommended. We had an increase in infections actually after masks became more common. That doesn't prove anything except that correlation is useless alone.
The studies all are about trained people using masks correctly and discarding them often. That has nothing to do with what we are, or ever will, do as regular citizens.
I'm surprised that the studies shown above do not include my observation that although the masks retain the body fluids ejected by speaking, coughing, and sneezing, that those materials if infected are now staged in the mask for dispersion throughout the rest of the mask's time in use, exposing everyone following the initial sneeze or cough for hours, not to mention concentrating the viral load of the wearer and continuous reinfecting them. That oversight could be due to the bias of studying medical settings where they are regularly changed. That's not what people are doing or will do.
Supposed to change the mask regularly, Louie. Otherwise it's a collection plate.
Louie. Whenever I hear the name I think of this: Louweee!
Nobody addresses the Brigham and Women's study because it was done AFTER the issue became politicized.
Mix a teaspoon of shit with a gallon of ice cream.
Mix a teaspoon of politics with a gallon of science.
Same. Same.
I specifically asked for any study from before 2020.
The Brigham and Women's study is political.
@tim in vermont said...
“Cultures where mask wearing is non controversial have done better with COVID. That is known as evidence.”
Read today’s WSJ “The World’s Covid Resurgence”, then get back to us about “evidence”.
Oh, and King Canute would like a word.
What works and nobody disagrees:
Wash your hands with soap and hot water, vigorously.
Get some Vitamin D by getting outside.
If you are at greater risk, isolate yourself as best you can.
These things have been observed as helpful for more than 100 years.
"I am sure you learned in your study of philosophy and logic that proving a negative is a tall order."
It doesn't seem you have an understanding of either. Maybe you can call a friend or buy an argument. You are still offering nothing but somebody told you so, and even then only part of their message.
"Cultures where mask wearing is non controversial have done better with COVID. That is known as evidence."
Maybe, but it's not science. They also have lots if other common characteristics, like lower fertility rates. Is that due to the masks?
Out for a stroll today I saw an old, very overweight man with a cane walking alone on an empty track, wearing a mask. ?!
Saw not one but two women riding bikes in my residential neighborhood, no one else in sight, wearing masks yesterday. Husband came home just behind me and said he saw them also and that they gestured at their masks and pointed at him, suggesting that he should have been wearing a mask, alone in his car?
I swear masks are like rabbits feet or saint medals to these people @@
Also, mock, hope you are well.
We use masks (locally, the dreaded mascarilla; I am thinking of naming a villainess "La Mascarilla") only because it is the fashion.
People can get upset if they are not used. I suppose it is akin to walking about in ones underwear.
There is an old Jack Vance story about a weird society (he specialized in weird societies) where everyone wears ritual masks constantly, and to go bare-faced is scandalous.
There will always be a 'government is good' contingent. And sometimes it is. But it's mostly a necessary evil.
There will always be a 'tell me what to do' contingent. And sometimes that's good too, unless you're being told to jump off a bridge.
BTW, for the uninitiated, Brigham & Women's means Harvard.
Tell me again which side Harvard is on in the culture wars?
And for supporting President Trump?
What percentage of Harvard employees sent donations to Democratics?
tim in vermont said...
Cultures where mask wearing is non controversial have done better with COVID. That is known as evidence.
Actually, that's called an assertion.
From the B&W study:
The decrease in HCW infections could be confounded by other interventions inside and outside of the health care system (Figure), such as restrictions on elective procedures, social distancing measures, and increased masking in public spaces, which are limitations of this study.
And if you look at the other interventions -- including restricting business travel and onsite working -- they are potentially substantial confounding factors.
To say masking was the reason is propaganda.
If it keeps you from touching your face, which even a bandana will do, that’s not nothing.
It doesn't keep you from touching your face. Shame videos of governors and NIAID directors prove it. Constant need for adjusting, makes for more face touching, not less...
Lotta old people in Pasadena
Unknown said...We know from Fauci that wearing a mask is absolutely necessary -- except when it is not.
--
And when he thinks they are in short supply...
Remember him at that task force briefing where he demonstrated the "big achoo" sneeze?
Good times.
For the last two days, I've been masked for several hours because I was on a military base, and there, orders are orders, not unconstitutional edicts delivered from Dictator Cuomo.
My sinuses are in much worse shape then they've been all year.
Coincidence? Or a health hazard of mask wearing? I'm going with the latter.
One, as of today, as of when it happened, one whole entire death among the 1.3 million active duty personnel. 2 other military deaths- one National Guard, one reservist. Is that incredibly low death rate because of the idiotic masking requirements? Because of their crowded living conditions in barracks and on board ships? Because of the social distancing that can't be practiced in tanks and transports? Or mayhaps because young healthy people don't die of the dreaded covid and by definition the military is a control group of young healthy people?
The following link is updated a few times a week.
https://www.airforcemag.com/snapshot-dod-and-covid-19/
Oh FF you know how lefty global entities work. Look deeper, where the WHO lays out the truth for other countries “considering a mask rule” to keep in mind that “Non-medical or fabric masks could increase potential for COVID-19 to infect a person“ when used like Gohmert did. They are only indicated for symptomatic people.
In reply to the anecdotal Brigham & Women's study remember, correlation does not imply causation.
Fauci Now Pushing People To Wear ‘Goggles’
https://nationalfile.com/fauci-now-pushing-people-to-wear-goggles-for-the-scamdemic/
I am well, Pants, and hope you are, too.
tim in vermont asserts: Cultures where mask wearing is non controversial have done better with COVID.
You mean, like Mexico?
Fauci keeps pushing his filthy envelope around. Wear a mask if you step out of your house! Goggles!
Come on, man. Full Hazmat or YOU WANT GRANDMA TO DIE!
(Buttplug is really between you and your Tinder date)
mockturtle said...tim in vermont asserts: Cultures where mask wearing is non controversial have done better with COVID.
--
You mean, like Mexico?
--
No..bet he means cultures where they have been exposed to to more variations of SARS, enhancing their immunity. But also perhaps merely correlation.
Wear the mask to Make Tim Great Again!
(even after the surely mofo vax)
this is fun!
after universal masking was implemented at Mass General Brigham, the rate of COVID-19 infection among health care workers dropped significantly.
after awhile at Mass General Brigham, the rate of COVID-19 infection among health care workers dropped significantly, because EVERYONE HAD ALREADY BEEN INFECTED; most asymptotically.
fify!
We know a lot about how viruses spread and there have been experiments that have shown that masks reduce the spread of COVID and all we can do is use the knowledge we have gained over the years and apply it in this novel situation. Look at the curve for deaths from infection disease over the centuries then tell me that “we don’t know shit.” You are the one spouting ignorance and using half truths to support it.
I try to stay out of this nonsense. I wore masks in surgery for 40 years. They reduce bacteria in exhalation. I know of no evidence they affect viruses. In China where people are constantly hawking and spitting, they make sense. I have no objections to wearing one inside a store like Costco. Outdoors, it makes no sense but crazy people like that woman with the Mace must be watched for.
There is a lot of nonsense being spread around these days.
It finally broke when the dog sat on it and wouldn't move.
That sounds rough. How long did you have to hold your breath before you convinced the dog to move?
"Musings." She must be jealous of anybody horning in on her act.
im in vermont said...
You guys are like Gomer Pyle in that poker game episode where he threw in the full house because it wasn’t a straight flush.
7/29/20, 4:14 PM
Did you actually *watch* the episode?
Re my post above -
The masked society is in Jack Vance, "The Moon Moth"
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Known as the dumbest person in all of Congress.He wears his badge well... :(
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