From "As transgender rights debate spills into sports, one runner finds herself at the center of a pivotal case" (WaPo).
The highest-rated comment at WaPo:
The science is proven - anyone who goes through male puberty has a significant advantage due to bone and muscle size, strength and structure. No amount of hormone use will change that. Use whatever bathroom you like, but it's just not fair for a male bodied person to compete against female bodied persons.Another highly rated comment:
If you’re really trying to argue that males don’t have a strength and speed advantage over females, then you’re not going to be taken seriously. This is Trump-level denial of the obvious. Give it up, you only make the movement for transgender rights look bad and jeopardize all of its reasonable goals.And there's this from someone who begins with a quote from the article:
"'It’s a really important case, because it’s going to set a precedent for other states as well. I think the next generation of these bathroom bills are these sports bills,' said Susan K. Cahn, a history professor at the University of Buffalo who specializes in gender and sexuality in sports. 'It’s sort of the latest wave in [the] traditionalist defense of sports as they are in the male imagination, the idea … that men are fundamentally, biologically superior to women, and therefore someone that was assigned male at birth should never compete in women’s competition.'"
This is an unfarily [sic] loaded statement from someone supposedly this well educated. It's not about biological superiority; that is subjective. It's about biological difference. There are objective, quantifiable differences between men and women. There is a reason we have women's track teams and men's track teams. There is a reason we don't have men and women fighting each other in MMA competitions. There is a reason why every male world record in a timed event is faster than every female's world record.
If you're a transgender woman and want to compete, compete against the men. If you want to compete against women, you are a coward. You are a bully.
Posts
113 comments:
This is an unfarily [sic] loaded statement from someone supposedly this well educated.
Since "unfarily" loaded statements appear in just about every media story, I hope this person is as vigilant when it isn't their ox being gored.
Either you segregate by sex or you have unisex sports. Segregating by gender - an indefinable feeling in someone's head - is utterly nonsensical. Might as well segregate by favourite colour.
Of course if you have unisex sports women will effectively not be able to participate in sport.
As for thinking that men are physically superior to women: my magic super power is that I can build a whole new human being in my body.
Men aren't superior to women. They're different.
They can’t compete against the men.
They aren’t good enough.
I still think it's a mental condition that can't be corrected with surgery.
Also, the usage of "cis" is intended demean, not define.
A surprising agreement with reality from the article's comments! Notice, though, the eruption of Trump Tourette's---a commenter seems compelled to reference Trump as the perfect exemplar of a person who denies the obvious, in a discussion where Trump completely agrees with the commenter.
Cis is a slur. But hey, it's directed at cunts and approved by academics, so, bygones.
The courts, so far, have seemed to side with the transgender point of view. It is ironic that the definition of femaleness or "being a woman" is being defined how ever any individual man chooses to define it.
I assert I am a woman, therefore I am.
Cue the outrage at Althouse's logical conclusion.
"But my FEELZ....!"
Will the gravaman of the seminal case of Hecox v. Idaho be she cocks?
We've pretty much reached insanity. And it actually happened before peak oil or peak climate change.
Anyone "who specializes in gender and sexuality in sports" at a university should be mocked and ridiculed. This is not an area of intellectual pursuit. It is a made up cause. And it is an attempt to further destroy sports. We might call these people 'Reality Deniers'.
If nothing else, this expert and her position at UBuf is just another argument for defunding the schools. They are so out of whack, so out of control, and so full of made-up navel-gazing pursuits.
By the time this case is resolved; what will be the point of NCAA or student sports anyway? Virtual schools won't need sports and sports at school just spread disease anyway. If your children have talent in sports at all; put them in competitive leagues that have their own rules.
someone that was assigned male
Subtle point, but very telling in its own way.
People who, things that.
Referring to males as "that" reveals a lot about how her mind works.
The rest is just too obviously stupid to be worth commenting on, but it's still pleasing to see that there are some subjects on which even WaPo readers can make intelligent points.
The comments you highlight are attempting to use reason and logic. It's a valiant effort, but proponents and activists are largely appealing to emotional reasons and will not be swayed by logical argument.
It's probably more effective to highlight the emotional pain of the women hurt by transgender activism or using mockery than trying to use reason to win the day. "Girl with penis wins state championship" is probably more effective than a 10-page dissertation on why that situation is unfair to girls.
I was a mediocre athlete on my high school's boys track team. If I could have crossed the infield and competed the girls, I would have been state champion in about five events, including several in which I had never once competed in a meet, such as long jump. Same for a bunch of guys on our side of the field. Woman's sports was an incredibly important thing in high school. Trying to destroy it seems like a really dumb tactic by the trans movement.
John Hopkins performed the first sex reassignment surgery in America. It no longer does perform sex reassignment surgery. For obvious violations of the Hippocratic oath
I agree with the three comments highlighted. Title IX was written to help girls and women, not men who who pretend to be women. The harm done to women athletes in the meantime is cruel and can’t be undone. The NCAA made the mistake of trying to thread the wind needle instead of doing their job and keeping men out of female sports. One year of hormones doesn’t negate 15+ years of male growth and body conditioning.
Is "cis" short for something? Is it purely made up or does it have a real historical meaning? (I agree with Tina that it is a slur and it's use in this article just is another example of the unprofessionalism of the WaPo, but I'm curious where it came from.)
This isn't just about Hecox's feelings. The feelings of his lawyers are equally, if not more important.
Letting Hecox run is not enough. The girls he beats must also hug him after and tell him how proud they are of him and smile, smile, smile!
Maybe the girls could sneak off somewhere later and compete in secret.
"If I win the case, it legitimizes the ultimate fact that I’m no different than a cisgender girl,"
Well, excepting the uniquely male characteristics.
Is Bezos selling jock straps for girls on Amazon?
If not, why not?
If you're a transgender woman and want to compete, compete against the men. If you want to compete against women, you are a coward. You are a bully.
Wait, what?
This from the same "group" that says a person is what they "feel" they are? That there is ZERO difference between men and women? That men can have periods and women prostate cancer?
That commenter must have a daughter in HS sports. Everyone is conservative about what they know...
female bodied persons
Heh. You've come a long way, baby.
"someone that was assigned male at birth"
Use of the word 'assigned' tells you that this person is not engaged in science, but rather is practicing politics. No one 'assigned' me as male at birth, the presence of a penis made me male.
I've only ever heard CIS uses as a slur and an insult.
"If I win the case, it legitimizes the ultimate fact that I’m no different than a cisgender girl,"
Really? How many other girls in the locker room have their own set of "frank and beans"?
'I just want the chance to run,' [Lindsay] Hecox said.
I'm surprised Althouse missed an opportunity to use on of her favorite diversions "the delightfully named. . ."
There're these. CandyMan Fashion Jockstrap. Very pretty.
But it says they're for men. What's the hell, Bezos? A little support would be nice, no pun intended.
Well anyway, they're available through the Althouse portal.
https://www.amazon.com/CandyMan-99312-Jockstrap-Color-Burgundy/dp/B07955R3W9/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=jock+strap+for+women&qid=1595941560&sr=8-2
i'm not sure i understand? is this throwback tuesday?
Who really cares who or how they did things back in the old days;
back when students Went to school; and those schools had sports
in Our New Normal, we DON'T HAVE sports; that's NOT how we social distance
it's Just like Bathrooms... Since we're NOT going to be leaving our homes, WHO CARES?
The current women's world record for the mile was the men's record in 1915.
The fastest baseball pitch thrown by a woman is 63 miles an hour.
'I just want the chance to run,' [Lindsay] Hecox said.
He cox, she cox. Tomato, tomahto.
"It would make me feel that society is valuing me as a member."
EDFLM - Egocentric Delusional Freaks' Lives Matter
Though maybe the shorter "FLM" sounds better.
"Is "cis" short for something? Is it purely made up or does it have a real historical meaning?"
Cis- is a Latin root. The cisalpine territories were territories conquered by the Romans that lay between Rome and the Alps (basically north Italy). The transalpine territories were on the far side of the Alps (basically France).
Note that this defines these two areas in terms of Rome and the Alps. Applying the terms to men and women is analogous to calling Canadians Ciscanadians and Americans Transcanadians, and then giving Transcanadians all the rights of Canadians.
I was the fastest white boy in Illinois in the 100 meter dash back in 1982. I never made it to State finals because there were always 8 guys faster than I was. I ran the 100 in 10.8 seconds, not bad but obviously not good enough. If I had identified as female, that time would STILL be the United States female high school record.
tim mcguire - "cis" and "trans" are organic chemistry words. Briefly, when you make certain organic molecules, you often end up with a mix of mirror-image molecules. They are labeled "trans" and "cis." They are the exact same chemical composition, but often have different qualities based on which mirror image they are.
So when someone started talking about transgender, they wanted a shorthand way to talk about the "mirror image" of "trans," and jumped on "cis" from organic chemistry.
INCLUSIVITY INSTEAD OF CIRCULARITY
Decisions about who can compete as a female athlete in world-class athletics should be informed by science, but they are ultimately subjective.
What might an alternative methodological approach to classification look like?
Instead of relying on the variability-reducing constructs of “normal” and “healthy” to justify excluding certain individuals (including world-class athletes) from the initial study pool, an alternative approach to classification would:
First, include all individuals in the initial study population, whether with DSDs or not;
Second, classify them as “male” and “female” based upon their sex assigned and maintained from birth;
Third, only then assess testosterone levels within each group; and
Fourth, present these female and male ranges without a separate classification of DSD individuals.
Another highly rated comment:If you’re really trying to argue that males don’t have a strength and speed advantage over females, then you’re not going to be taken seriously. This is Trump-level denial of the obvious.
I very much doubt that Trump denies that males have a strength and speed advantage over females.
tim maguire said...
Is "cis" short for something? Is it purely made up or does it have a real historical meaning? (I agree with Tina that it is a slur and it's use in this article just is another example of the unprofessionalism of the WaPo, but I'm curious where it came from.)
I'm pretty sure it was culturally appropriated from chemistry:
Cis–trans isomerism, also known as geometric isomerism or configurational isomerism, is a term used in organic chemistry. ... In the context of chemistry, cis indicates that the functional groups are on the same side of the carbon chain while trans conveys that functional groups are on opposing sides of the carbon chain.
PB said...
I still think it's a mental condition that can't be corrected with surgery.
Still finding conspiracy theories on the internet, eey? I'll bet you're influenced by the kooks at that blogger called John Hopkins.
By the time this case is resolved; what will be the point of NCAA or student sports anyway? Virtual schools won't need sports and sports at school just spread disease anyway. If your children have talent in sports at all; put them in competitive leagues that have their own rules.
7/28/20, 7:38 AM
The competitive leagues will be the next target. There is no way to hide from this madness.
Tell me again that the Democrats are the “Party of Science.”
it legitimizes the ultimate fact that I’m no different than a cisgender girl
Substitute "opinion" for "fact" in the whole trans argument and you will approach the truth.
Men and women are different. Give me $2 billion and I'll do a study to prove it.
Female engineers? Kind of rare. Its not smarts, its talent. Problem solving.
We watched the movie Free Solo, the other night. Entertaining and engaging. After a couple of days to mull it over, I voiced the absence of a single female free solo climber. Because? Don't waste a lot of time thinking about it. Women aren't wired that way. Its a good thing. Men need women, and vice a versa. Each brings their unique strengths to society.
Mandating by law passed by congress, (or 5 judges can decree it so) would be the end of female sports. And all the other set asides?? Maybe.
Meh...after watching the New York Liberty and the Seattle Storm Womens Basketball players (WNBA) walked off the court during the National Anthem...I don't care anymore. They are killing their own never watched sport themselves.....
The science is proven - anyone who goes through male puberty has a significant advantage due to bone and muscle size, strength and structure.
One obvious solution is to put all children -- especially boys -- through hormone therapy before puberty in order to equalize outcomes. Then there would no longer be unfair bone and muscle size.
tim maguire (7:41am):
cis is a Latin prefix meaning 'on this side of'. It's the opposite of trans, 'across, on the far side of'.
Before transsexuals were 'in', I had only ever seen 'cis' in two English words: 'cisatlantic' and 'cisalpine'. Poli Sci people routinely called U.S. relations with Europe 'transatlantic relations' and sometimes called relations with Canada and Mexico 'cisatlantic relations', but not often since most non-pedants didn't understand it. 'Cisalpine' has been used for centuries by Classicists and Ancient Historians. In Roman times, Northern Italy - the Po Valley - was considered part of Gaul, not Italy, because the people were Celts and spoke Celtic languages before gradually turning Roman in language and culture. When they needed to distinguish, Romans called Northern Italy 'Cisalpine Gaul', i.e. 'Gaul on this side of the Alps' and the rest of Gaul (basically France and Belgium) 'Transalpine Gaul', i.e. 'Gaul on the far side of the Alps'. Transalpine Gaul was further divided into the Roman Province (Provincia, still called Provence), which they conquered long before Caesar conquered the rest, plus just plain Gaul (most of the rest of France), Aquitania (Basque country), and Belgium.
More than you really wanted to know?
So, that bring up the question. Why do women have separate sports? Why not just have one sports open to all? Why this segregation and inequality? We don't have separate classes for men and women at most colleges. We don't have a separate band or college symphony for men and women. Men and women are equal.
"If I win the case, it legitimizes the ultimate fact that I’m no different than a cisgender girl,"
Elon Musk is in court trying to get a ruling on the speed of light. If he can get it changed we will have an easier time of populating the stars. And I think we should repeal the law of gravity. It's just holding us down. Pretty oppressive.
(eaglebeak)
Cis is Latin for "this side of, on the same side as." The Romans called Northern Italy "Cisalpine Gaul," meaning Gaul on this (Roman) side of the Alps, after the Gauls (Celts) invaded Northern Italy and dominated it, ultimately inducing the Romans and other allied Italic tribes to invade Gaul; this in turn led to the struggle Caesar recorded in his Gallic Wars and the Roman penetration into what became France, Switzerland, Spain, the Rhineland, parts of Austria, and eventually Britain.
It is interesting that amateur tennis player Rene Richards (nee Richard Raskin - sp?) said that it is unfair for biological males to compete in their age group with biological females.
(eaglebeak)
I apologize to Dr. Weevil--I did not see his/her entry as I wrote my own--if I had seen his/her entry, I wouldn't have bothered to write mine.
Last year, I had the good fortune to meet an amazing woman. She was a 5 time Olympian who, with her relay race partner, became the first American woman to win a medal in cross country skiing. They won the gold. This woman trained and competed for over 20 years to reach that point. It’d be terrible if women like her were shoved aside because trans athletes were allowed to compete against them.
"'I just want the chance to run,' [Lindsay] Hecox said. 'I don’t want to be taking titles or spots away from cis girls"
Pretty much covered in the post, but --
1. This is dishonest: s/he doesn't doesn't just want the "chance to run"; and 2. This is dishonest: by running with girls, s/he would be taking titles or spots.
It's part of prog transgenderism: to humiliate the people by getting them to accept the lie.
...and now for the snark:
Its girl's volleyball, mom. You didn't miss anything...
This hill the progs want to die on doesn't even make any sense. Men and Women are structurally different. Calling yourself a woman then badgering society to agree with you is foolish. As Lincoln famously asked "How many legs does a dog have if you add the tail? It has 4. Calling a tail a "leg" doesn't make it so"
Transgerder sports participation is the greatest threat to women's sports since the implementation of Title IX.
Some myths are destructive.
"...Trump-level denial of the obvious..."
Which is hilarious as only progressives think men competing against women is a good idea. It ALWAYS comes around to Trump...wow.
I worked at a high school that had an outstanding athletics program. There was a board in the locker room listing the best times/results for the school...a records board if you will. I wish I'd taken a photo. I would bet that most of the records on that board would beat the women's world record...I know that the high jump record was over 7 feet.
Don't even get me started on speed sports like soccer, tennis, basketball, etc.
Which begs the question...why are women segregated in chess, curling, billiards, etc.?
"In March, Idaho became the first state in the country to bar sexually-confused boys... from participating in sports not consistent with their biological sex..." FIFY.
Seriously?
The Latin preposition "cis" has been the contrast/opposite of the Latin preposition "trans" for more than two thousand years. The OED is full of uses as a prefix in English for the last 360, running the gamut from Fuller's Worthies, across Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia, through a joke in a London newspaper, to an article on the exploration of cislunar space.
" 2. This is dishonest: by running with girls, s/he would be taking titles or spots."
Well, yeah- s/he would be. But then again, girls who go out for (and win spots on) high school football teams are taking spots from boys. Goose/gander?
"Its girl's volleyball, mom. You didn't miss anything..."
Depends...beach?
RichardJohnson said...
Another highly rated comment:If you’re really trying to argue that males don’t have a strength and speed advantage over females, then you’re not going to be taken seriously. This is Trump-level denial of the obvious.
I very much doubt that Trump denies that males have a strength and speed advantage over females.
7/28/20, 8:45 AM
Ah, but the writer had to get in the obligatory putdown of Trump. When a Democrat writes something that goes against the PC grain, they have to make it clear that hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those awful Trump voters or anything. Matt Tabibi and Andrew Sullivan are always careful to include at least one anti-Trump statement in everything they write.
Given the mindset of today's public school administrators, it would not surprise me at all if these administrators deal with the "trans in sports" problem by simply dropping all sports programs in grammar school and high school. The rational will be these programs are an affront to progressive ideas because they breed divisiveness and encourage toxic competitiveness.
The two young men that are dominating women's high school track in Connecticut have made no efforts to transition beyond a declaration. I predict that once their athletic careers are over, they will change their minds and go back to being men.
The very notion of “cis” and “trans” makes no sense at all unless sex is a real thing. But the people who are demanding that “Trans women are women” are the same ones insisting sex is not real.
There was a youtube video of a trans fighter boasting about cracking a woman's skull in competition, and how much he/she enjoyed it.
Note the mention of hormone treatments that the NCAA uses to determine whether or not a biological male will be allowed to compete in the womens' events. I will make a prediction:
If the ACLU wins its case, the very next one it files will be to fight the hormone treatment regulation as also being a violation of the Civil Rights Act. Think about it- how can one justify having to take hormone treatments just to access their civil rights to competition in the events of your chosen gender?
I wish someone had the nerve to propose that in order to resolve the issue of transgenders competing in sports, there will no longer be any discrimination based on sex. From this point forward there will be no sex segregation in sports. No women's teams or men's teams. One football team, one basketball team one track team, one golf team, etc. Tryouts are open to all and the best will be chosen for the team. Thank you. It would be fun to watch the hysterical reaction of some, but it would solve the problem.
I wish someone had the nerve to propose that in order to resolve the issue of transgenders competing in sports, there will no longer be any discrimination based on sex. From this point forward there will be no sex segregation in sports. No women's teams or men's teams. One football team, one basketball team one track team, one golf team, etc. Tryouts are open to all and the best will be chosen for the team. Thank you. It would be fun to watch the hysterical reaction of some, but it would solve the problem.
"...from participating in sports consistent with their biological sex."
See what I did there? Instead of using a subjective factor to determine qualifications for participation, I used an incontrovertibly real, objectively defined and measured factor to set qualifications for participation. Easy, peasy. Dress as you want, compete with those of similar chromosomes. And for the rare XXY or other chromosomal abnormality, treat the athlete on an individual basis.
As a 48-year-old man, I played in a coed weekend soccer league. The only rule change was no slide tackles because we all had day jobs. It was a fairly high level of play...I had played in high school only but many of the players were ex-college and some ex-professional. But many were just out to get some running in...
We played against a team that had a 30-year-old woman who had just left the women's US World Cup team. I guarded her on defense. It wasn't difficult to keep up with her. Against our aging mostly male back line she was a non-entity.
Her boyfriend played for her team as well. He was ex-US men's team...mid 30's...not a 'name' player. He was a force of nature. I've never seen that kind of speed and size up close. He was just there to stay in shape or he probably could have scored at will.
OK. Let's just stop segregating sports. Everyone can compete openly and fairly and the best performers can rise to the top and shine no matter their gender, biological or otherwise. To mitigate the impact on kids who counted on gendered sports teams to give them an opportunity, we can teir high school sports like they do in the minor league baseball. The most competitive players will be in "AAA," less competitive players will be in "AA", and the least competitive players will be in "Girls." Where the actual female players will be is, I suspect, on the bench. Even in "Girls."
Or, better yet, and with slightly less tongue in cheek, I say we no longer have intervarsity sports. At all. Period. Take all that money and put it good use by supporting vigorous Co-ed intramural sports and athletics programs. That would increase sports participation in general and do away,or at least mitigate, the more toxic elements of current school sports culture.
"Hecox began her transition the summer after she graduated high school, and Boise State proved to be a perfect place to start her new life. She didn’t know anyone, and the scenery was the perfect backdrop for long runs. She made new girlfriends at orientation, and went bowling with a few of them later.
“I was just starry-eyed the whole time, that I wasn’t getting harassed or yelled at,” she said.
She began her hormone replacement therapy and made up her mind that she wanted to pursue a career as a psychologist, specifically helping the LGBTQ community. Trans youth are far more likely to experience depression and suicidal thoughts than cisgender youth, according to studies.
Hecox was earning A’s and B’s in her classes and hung out at the campus’s Gender Equity Center, often putting stickers with trans-rights slogans on the windows. She kept an eye on the anti-trans legislation spreading across the country, and by the time HB 500 was introduced in February, Hecox felt she needed to act.
By early March, the bill went before the Senate State Affairs Committee, and she walked to the Capitol Building in downtown Boise to deliver a speech against it. A month later, as the bill passed, Hecox had made the decision to try out for the team and was a plaintiff in the lawsuit.
The NCAA said in a statement that it plans to discuss the law and its impact on student athletes during a board of governors meeting in August. A Boise State spokesman referred questions to the state’s attorney general’s office.
“The trans community has to fight for almost every single thing to be the gender that they are,” Hecox said. “It was the same thing with bathrooms a couple years ago. Anything that is gendered, we have to fight for it.”
https://www.boston.com/sports/national-news-2/2020/07/27/as-transgender-rights-debate-spills-into-sports-one-runner-finds-herself-at-the-center-of-a-pivotal-case
"We don't have separate classes for men and women at most colleges. We don't have a separate band or college symphony for men and women. Men and women are equal."
What about chess?
Bill Snider said...
From this point forward there will be no sex segregation in sports. No women's teams or men's teams. One football team, one basketball team one track team, one golf team, etc. Tryouts are open to all and the best will be chosen for the team.
Of course, there will be quotas for biological males and females.
On the bright side, Monica Trubiski might be a better QB than her brother Mitchell. Particularly if she can learn how to read defenses.
Blogger Bill Snider said...
I wish someone had the nerve to propose that in order to resolve the issue of transgenders competing in sports, there will no longer be any discrimination based on sex.
--
I remember thinking this would be the "logical" outcome of what was being put forth...in the 70's.
Do they put names on backs of err..cross-x..jerseys?
The last name is kind of waving it around in folks' faces.
"Briefly, when you make certain organic molecules, you often end up with a mix of mirror-image molecules. They are labeled "trans" and "cis."
This isn't correct. In chemistry, cis and trans refers to "same side" or "opposite side". It comes two basic flavors with organic molecules- isomerism in alkenes and isomerism in cylic molecules, though other elements can form double bonds like carbon does in alkenes to give cis/trans isomers, such as nitrogen with carbon (imines).
Mirror image isomers that are called enantiomers. Of course, it is possible for two molecules to be mirror images and not be enantiomers, too, a concept that trips up lots of people who take organic chemistry. Enantiomers are like left-handed and right-handed gloves- mirror images that can't be super-imposed/over-layed on top of each other.
It's grinding through our republican system towards ajudication. Wake me up when it's done.
Curious how Trump-level denial seems to be a Leftist pastime...
The fact that this debate is going on demonstrates that ideologues are conducting it.
No one who believes that women should compete in sporting activities would want transgenders thrown into the mix. Let them compete against each other or against men.
I'm still waiting for the female to male gender reassignment complaining about anything related to sports or bathrooms or whatever.
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil wrote:
"Ah, but the writer had to get in the obligatory putdown of Trump. When a Democrat writes something that goes against the PC grain, they have to make it clear that hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those awful Trump voters or anything. Matt Tabibi and Andrew Sullivan are always careful to include at least one anti-Trump statement in everything they write."
7/28/20, 9:52 AM
Hilarious to me that you should write that. I was at Matt's substack last week, commenting on one of his articles, and got into an exchange about Trump. I suggested to one commenter that he try writing about perceived political problems without mentioning Trump at all.
The resulting reply was a paragraph about Trump. They are all just obsessed with the man.
So the made up word "cisgender" makes no sense at all. Being a normal heterosexual does not put one on "the same side" of anything, certainly not on the same side of gender. Logically, "cisgender" might be a way to refer to homosexuals, not heterosexuals.
Bizarre how quickly this nonword had been accepted. Almost as bizarre as "woke."
With all the shouting about "believe the science" it would seem very easy to settle this fracas. If one has two X chromosomes in their DNA he is male and competes against males. If one has and X and Y in their DNA she is female and competes against women. Administer the tests in a fashion similar to drug tests. Simple.
This SCIENCE is so blatantly obvious that you'd think there would be no argument. Not only would the rules be chrystal clear, but for once they would have a solid grounding in SCIENCE. Everything else is bullshit.
Now venturing into opinion: to allow boys to compete against girls will be the end of women's sports and as a dedicated fan of UCONN women's Bball I would be devastated, not to mention what it does to the "girls".
We've pretty much reached insanity. And it actually happened before peak oil or peak climate change.
Now THAT's funny!
I think all runners, male and female and those pretending female, can agree that Nigerians, of either sex, should be required to run in their own heats.
- Krumhorn
Gahrie said...
The two young men that are dominating women's high school track in Connecticut have made no efforts to transition beyond a declaration. I predict that once their athletic careers are over, they will change their minds and go back to being men.
7/28/20, 9:57 AM
Or go on to be very successful lesbians...
No no no, you are supposed to ban girl sports, not trans girls from playing girl sports.
Human biological unit with XX chromosome on one team. XY on another team. And a pre-determined tribunal assesses to what team any other pattern Belongs.
In 2000 Marion Jones became the first female athlete to win 5 golds at a single Olympics, breaking records in the process. In 2007 she admitted to having used performance enhancing drugs and returned the medals.
In 2000, if Marion Jones had skipped the Olympics and competed in the New Jersey boys high school state track and field championships, she would have finished 5th in her best event, even juiced.
Aaack. I tried to post this earlier, and after three iterations of "Whoops! That's an error," finally did refresh the page, which of course wiped out the content. Should've saved it elsewhere first.
So, what I said: I'm with Bill Snider on this. If you aren't going to differentiate "women" who have gone through male puberty from other women, best to drop all sex distinctions in sports, period. Just as, if you are going to allow "pale [or otherwise] patriarchal [or otherwise] penis people" who identify as women into girls' locker rooms, you should not differentiate by sex at all in the matter of locker rooms. Let boys and girls, cis- and trans-, all shower together! What, you have a problem with that?
Anyway, just remove all sex barriers to participation in any sport. This will, of course, have the effect of excluding almost all cis-women from almost all sports. Almost, but not all. Sports that involve precision will probably come out OK. Shooting. Dressage. Billiards. Ping-pong. Darts. Archery, to the extent that it involves precision rather than sheer distance. Badminton, probably. Some winter sports, like bobsledding and luge. Skiing, maybe, too; I don't know how great the differentials are there. Skateboarding. Rock climbing. Fencing. Gymnastics, probably, since the men's and women's are already completely different sports, and there doesn't seem to be much benefit, for once, in a transwoman's being in the female tranche. Maybe extreme distance cycling, the kind where you traverse the US over the course of a month.
Team sports? Fuhgeddaboutit. ISTR the !!!!!AMAZING!!!!! US women's soccer team playing a fairly ordinary men's high school team off-season and getting humiliatingly defeated. The same will go for hockey, baseball, basketball, football (var.: American). The women of the US Women's Soccer Team would be absolutely flattened by any professional men's team in this country, and if that was who they were playing against, as opposed to Thai women two-thirds their size, there might be less RAH RAH USA!!! and more "Well, yeah, of course."
Chess? I don't see any reason to sex-segregate chess, and the Polgar sisters wouldn't either, but it remains likely to skew male at the top, for reasons that Larry Summers nearly got fired for mentioning. But if you can compete, why not? It's like high school math teams: There are relatively few girls in them, but those there are have earned their place. I say this as a member of the celebrated NY DUSO (Duchess, Ulster, Sullivan, and Orange counties -- basically thr lower-middle-class fringe of the NYC commuters) math team, in that glorious year when we -- won? Don't be ridiculous, of course we didn't win -- came in second to the NYC "A" Team (which always wins) in the state championship. I'm not sure that was the happiest day of my life, but it's definitely in the top five.
Interesting that he cites the bathroom struggle as that seems to have failed. On the ground, if not legally. I suspect, trannies in women's sports is headed the same way. Shiny objects lose their sheen and then no one wants to pick them up.
Minnesota farm guy, XY is male, XX is female.
TERFs own this issue because they rightly see it as the top of the slippery slope leading to the abolition of all female-only activities and spaces. I hate that people defending this stupidity can’t see it for what it is, just another case of men telling women “you’re not doing it right.” The fact that some women accept this kind of criticism *about being a woman* blows my mind.
In my house, men, women, trans, children - anyone - can use my bathroom.
This I did on my own, before SCOTUS said everyone is everything.
The reasons to distinguish between men and women in this context is two-fold. One, men and women are complementary in Nature, so society has a compelling interest to normalize a favorable juxtaposition of the sexes (e.g. first man, first woman, women and children first). Two, men, on average, have certain physiological (e.g. strength, pulmonary capacity) advantages over women. That said, this is not an issue for all classes in the transgender spectrum, where most individuals are mental divergent, but their gender is otherwise matched to their sex.
in Our New Normal, we DON'T HAVE sports; that's NOT how we social distance
That, and the extraordinary risk of athletic competition. Just don't do that. Kneel.
best to drop all sex distinctions in sports, period
That could be done with a performance, rather than biological or social metric.
It is amazing how quickly we are moving to undo everything accomplished via Title IX and those swingin the sledgehammer actually invoke Title IX as the basis for their assault. It is insanity.
I am a youth hockey coach and primarily coach girls' hockey because I think it is a better version of the sport (and because I have daughters who play). By the time the kids are 12 years old the sexes really need to be seperated. If not, you end up with two things: 1. girls riding the bench and 2. girls giving up the sport. It's not a level sheet of ice. The boys are just bigger, faster and stronger. (They are also a lot dumber).
Here are a couple of interesting things to consider:
100 meter dash:
Women's World Record: 10.49 seconds. Set by Flo-Jo in 1988.
US Boy's National High School Record: 9.98 seconds. Some guy called Matt that no one will remember in another year.
Tennis Battle of the Sexes. 1998: Karsten Braasch vs. the Williams sisters (arguably two of the greatest female players of all time).
took place during the 1998 Australian Open between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked outside the world's top 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple of bottles of ice cold lager." The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park, after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two shandies. He first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2.
Also see the data compiled here:
https://web.law.duke.edu/sports/sex-sport/comparative-athletic-performance/
And finally if you have any doubt left, watch the UFC fight between Fallon Fox (biological man; transgendered women) and Tamika Brents if you can stomach it.
@Michelle Dulak Thomson
I just copy my comments before pasting...then they're easily retrievable by pasting if the system has a glitch.
"Cisgender" was invented in order to "destabilize heteronormativity" -- in other words, to displace heterosexuals from being considered the norm from which gays and transgenders "deviated." It was deemed "leveling."
Of course that's all bullshit. The first time I heard it, a nasty gay male activist hurled it at me while making the argument that "biologically born women" can't have hate crimes committed against them because "gender bias" only applies to transsexuals, transvestites, and cross-dressers. Not women.
All of this stuff was weaponized by the hate crimes industry starting with some memos written by Elena Kagan and Eric Holder around 1997. Once they destroyed gender, language, objectivity, and equality within the courts, everything else fell apart. It only took 23 years.
So the made up word "cisgender" makes no sense at all. Being a normal heterosexual does not put one on "the same side" of anything, certainly not on the same side of gender.
Ah, yes, the classic argument from deliberate obtuseness.
The transgender identify with the gender role that's on the other side of the male-female divide as their biological sex. The cisgender identify with the gender role that's on the same side of the male-female divide as their biological sex. The second word makes exactly as much sense as the first word.
And of course both terms were equally consciously and deliberately "made up", in the last 40 years.
Now, from here, you could try to make a retreat to the position that the normal, default case doesn't need a special word, that only the abnormal needs a special designation for how if differs from normal. Except, of course, that you already implicitly conceded that exact terms for the normal, default case are useful . . . by using the word "heterosexual". Another term that was consciously and deliberately "made up", if ninety years earlier than transgender.
Hecox. More evidence that we live in a simulation?
Modern usage of cis- and trans — as alluded to above — includes cislunar space (the region of space closer to Earth than the Moon's orbit) and translunar space (the space beyond the Moon's orbit).
I saw a table of US high school boys sports records and female olympic records, and over 90% of the boys records were faster/better than the girls. High school. Grip strength of men of any age is stronger than women of any age (ie 65 yr old man beats any woman). In olympics the female shot for shot-put is lighter. it goes on. Progs want to substitute fantasy for reality.
"The transgender identify with the gender role that's on the other side of the male-female divide as their biological sex. The cisgender identify with the gender role that's on the same side of the male-female divide as their biological sex. The second word makes exactly as much sense as the first word."
Up until about five minutes ago, the percentage of people who were extremely uncomfortable with the sexed body they were born with (gender dysphoric) was about .02% of the population. There is no need to assign a counter-binary label (which must be regularly announced to the world) for the 99.98% of the population who do not feel such a mental conflict. There are people who are born with autism; we don't make everyone who is not autistic announce that they are "non-auti." There are people whose biological makeup will result in them being in the top 1% of height; we don't have to self-identify as "tall-ies" and "shorties" because of this.
I also don't think that the conflict trans-folk feel is best expressed as "identifying with the gender role that's on the other side of their biological sex." A gender role is a societal performance. Butch lesbian women and ultra-femme gay men can and do live out and transgress all kinds of gender roles without being trans. I think for most trans-folk (I've done a lot of reading about this, so I'm doing my best to respectfully reflect what these trans-folk report) the conflict is better expressed as a deeply-felt disconnect with their physical, sexed body, in the sense that they have an inner conviction that they are essentially the other sex and would very much like to have that body.
As far as "cisgender," I reject having that identification forced on me. It's simply not accurate to say that I "identify with a gender role." Don't presume to tell me what I identify with. The doctor sexed me when I was born, just like we sex a puppy, and announced that I was a girl. I have no discomfort with having this female body but I don't assign myself ANY behavior or other internal feelings as a result. Frankly, what I think about my biological carrying-case is no one else's fucking business.
"If you’re really trying to argue that males don’t have a strength and speed advantage over females, then you’re not going to be taken seriously. This is Biden-supporter like denial of the obvious."
fify
It's not even close.
You can walk through a decent high school track team and collect a half dozen athletes who have beaten the women's WORLD record in their respective event. I beat the women's world record in the 200m by the time I was 18. You won't see me in the top 10 in the Big 10 championship for MEN.
This is profoundly stupid.
Putting aside the words, made up or not, used for the XX XY divide, there are only really normal people...and everyone else. One can assign whatever words desired to identify those who are among everyone else.
- Krumhorn
AceofSpadesHQ features almost every Sunday a Chess Thread, coupled with a picture of highly-ranked (and hot) female player.
Seems to be quite a lot of them, especially among Russkayas and Eastern Europeans.
a Chess Thread, coupled with a picture of highly-ranked (and hot) female player.
Feminine, female, logical, sand strategic.
One can assign whatever words desired to identify those who are among everyone else.
In the context of gender (e.g. sexual orientation), they are divergent from normal or trans (i.e. state or process), some more stable than others. There are also trans-socials (e.g. transvestites). Transhumans (e.g. abortionists, diversitists).
If you go to school, you have to be graded or you don’t try. If you are in a sport you need to be able to win or you don’t try. If you are a good poker player you have to find people who don’t know you to play. This movement will turn women’s sports into an exercise club, no one will compete if you can’t win. It’s amusing that it was considered important to have title IX to give women character building sports, and then say it is more important to give trans graspers an ego trip. Women’s sports will be a few trans people racing each other, with colleges giving big scholarships to the winners.
If you go to school, you have to be graded or you don’t try. If you are in a sport you need to be able to win or you don’t try. If you are a good poker player you have to find people who don’t know you to play. This movement will turn women’s sports into an exercise club, no one will compete if you can’t win. It’s amusing that it was considered important to have title IX to give women character building sports, and then say it is more important to give trans graspers an ego trip. Women’s sports will be a few trans people racing each other, with colleges giving big scholarships to the winners.
For those with chess questions:
Why grandmasters like Magnus Carlsen lose weight playing chess
Apparently chess is one part brains, one part physical endurance.
>>Transalpine Gaul was further divided into the Roman Province (Provincia, still called Provence), which they conquered long before Caesar conquered the rest, plus just plain Gaul (most of the rest of France), Aquitania (Basque country), and Belgium.
The "Roman Province (Provincia," more specifically, "Provincia Nostra," i.e., "our province," including specifically Massilia (Marseilles) and its hinterlands.
From memory, the start of Caesar's de Bello Gallico: "Gallia [transalpina] est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae, alteram Aquitani, and tertiam" a lot more verbiage about how "they" call themselves Kelts and "we" call them Gauls. And some stuff about how one river or another divides one or anther of the groups from the others. Leading up to the "Helvetian drive to the west," which was about as far as we got it in high school, followed by lots of other brutal stuff that made Caesar's reputation in Rome but shortly turned Gaul into an integral part of the civilized world
I question the statement that Aquitania meant Basque country, but could be persuaded. Subsequent Aquitaine was certainly not a Basque culture.
And, yes, as many others have said, "cis" and "trans" were standard Latin terms, most familiar from referring to the cis and trans Alpine Gauls. The chemical terms others have cited derive from those Latin roots. Still have a bit of trouble understanding the current usage.
-gpm
Michelle Dulak Thomson said...
Anyway, just remove all sex barriers to participation in any sport. This will, of course, have the effect of excluding almost all cis-women from almost all sports.
That was an Althouse goal from a few months ago. She wants girls to revert to being non-athletic as in the 50's and 60's; she wants girls to revert to her example back then. She wants girls to bow to today's gender-blending norms.
This says nothing about Althouse's alleged athletic prowess these days
"Cis" is a made-up word that is meaningless on its face. Humans aren't "assigned" genders at birth, a quick visual check of external genitalia is usually pretty precise in determining the sex of the child. If males can "identify" as female and participate in student sports on girls' teams what good is Title IX? If the girls and women can't participate because the boys and men are taking their places and winning the competitions why have girls' and women's sports at all?
chickelit,
If that's what Althouse wants (and I haven't seen any actual evidence of it), it's not what I do. I want the people responsible for this (beginning with the two "girl" sprinters in Connecticut) to see what the results are like, because though they're predictable to me, they may well not be to them.
If you can see that this means, for practical purposes, the end of most women's sports for essentially all women born female, and you still accept that, have at it. If you belong to the other 90-odd percent of Americans, do something about it.
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