I'm sayin right out now. Like the 60s, the bulk of the "protesters" are lookin for a hook up. Nothin like a meaningful virtue signal to fire up the hormones. Mostly lookin for that Hot Monkey Love the libs all crave.Was that racist?
IN THE COMMENTS: Leslie Graves said:
Is it safe to assume that they thought this because of the reference to "hot monkey love"?MadisonMan said:
I looked it up on Urban Dictionary, where the meaning is given as "To engage in hot serious sex. To go at it with the prowless [sic] of a monkey. In that you actually make each other wanna make noises similar to that of a screaming monkey."
Urban Dictionary doesn't represent this as having racial overtones.
The person also might have thought that claiming that hormones and the desire to hook up are actually what is causing folks (some of whom are people of color) to flood into the streets, as opposed to a high-minded desire to protest the killing, and that saying that is insulting to those people of color in a racist way.
I will say that back in the 60s, whenever there was an anti-war protest in nearby Madison, it was very common for the old folks to offer commentary suggesting that the main reason for those students (virtually all of whom were white) to flood into the streets was to get some action. So, that's how I read the comment.
Why run to the teacher, so to speak, over something like this? If you find something in the comments racist enough to email the host, why isn't racist enough to comment on directly?Some people don't want to engage in open debate. They want censorship. The person who emailed me said: "I don’t subscribe to the Zuckerberg view" and wanted to attribute it to me for not "filtering" it out. I get something like 1,000 comments a day and, though I delay them in moderation to squelch known trolls, I can't possibly read them all and think about what they mean. In any case, I do subscribe to the Zuckerberg view.
ADDED: Is Gilda Radner racist?
Is Maureen Dowd?
পোস্টগুলি
১৯৭টি মন্তব্য:
Nope, not racist.
Everything is racist. So yes.
"monkey" is auto-racist. Says so right here in my leftwing word-crime handbook.
Not if they wear a mask.
If by "hot monkey love" he was referring to hooking up with an African American Gentleman or Lady, damn straight it was racist (and I can name a few of your commenters who would publish that knowing that it would be interpreted that way).
no.
For a guy with an epithet, everything looks like racism.
I dunno about that, but I've been married for 25+ years so mostly I'm trying to think of a way to introduce that idea to my wife.
Anyway, @Ann, are you in the business of policing your blog posts past the point where you feel like doing it?
-XC
>>"Was that racist?"<<
We can't possibly know unless we know whether or not the commenter was Caucasian.
As an American of Irish descent I am always offended by comparisons of my people to apes.
The term "Racism" no longer has any coherent meaning.
People who flog that horse have no intellectual honesty and should not be entrusted with political power.
No, and don't be ridiculous.
I seem to remember something from the 60s about a woman's position in the civil rights movement being "prone". I went to college back then in an environment that was overwhelmingly male, and none of the guys ever headed out to a protest march without their condoms. Didn't OWS need "rape tents" to protect the women? It seems to me the person complaining about the comment is the racist. Why assume men looking for sex at a protest/riot are of one color or another?
The game "Was that Jew-like" was a big hit with the Furher.
The in-crowd deciding who's the out-crowd has never worked anywhere it's been played.
Given the hoary (spelled correctly) definition and the fact that the target was specified as "libs", I call this an easy no way.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Hot%20Monkey%20Love
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCm6U5V7MEg
No. And for a statistically significant nonzero percentage, true. Deplorables are always jealous of true virility.
Racism is in the mind of the beholder. If you see racism all around you, it's because you yourself are the racist.
I don't think of the protestors in the 60s as predominately black, so I didn't see this as a reference to black people.
That aside.....person asking Althouse to "censor" it should look at themselves and wonder why they are outraged when there is *not* censorship? Be outraged at the comment if that's what outrages you. Don't demand Althouse clear your path for you so you don't encounter words you see as racist.
Mostly, it's fine (and true), but "Hot Monkey Love," yeah. Racist.
Racist enough to delete? No, just racist enough to call out. But do it publicly, like I just did. Not with sneaky emails that put the pressure on the mod.
Also, nota bene, the white blues band, The Monks, aka: Hot Monkey Love, have been performing in NYC since 2003. Or so they say: http://hotmonksluv.com/
I'm really confused about the rules of racism, sometimes.
-XC
No poll? Seems like the sort of thing that cries out for a reader poll.
(You can put me down for "no".)
the use of the word monkey was ambiguous. in normal usage it could be meant as a racial slur or refer to the primitive within us all. in this instance, since it is ambiguous, we should err on the side of freedom. erring on the side of freedom should be our default response.
Is it safe to assume that they thought this because of the reference to "hot monkey love"?
I looked it up on Urban Dictionary, where the meaning is given as "To engage in hot serious sex. To go at it with the prowless of a monkey. In that you actually make each other wanna make noises similar to that of a screaming monkey."
Urban Dictionary doesn't represent this as having racial overtones.
The person also might have thought that claiming that hormones and the desire to hook up are actually what is causing folks (some of whom are people of color) to flood into the streets, as opposed to a high-minded desire to protest the killing, and that saying that is insulting to those people of color in a racist way.
I will say that back in the 60s, whenever there was an anti-war protest in nearby Madison, it was very common for the old folks to offer commentary suggesting that the main reason for those students (virtually all of whom were white) to flood into the streets was to get some action. So, that's how I read the comment.
Trying to get a white women to censor her own blog for comments you don't like as if that person was your own personal army...
Is that racist?
Of course. What the hell isn't?
Is it racist to observe that blacks and whites have different skin color?
I suppose if “monkey” makes you think of Black people, the phrase might be racist — or you might be.
I’m assuming “Monkey” is offending word. Like lots of these cases, racism is in the eye of the beholder. You could recognize the phrase as this https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Hot%20Monkey%20Love. It’s too much to ask a blog to moderate at the level of interpreting someone’s motivation on a questionable statement.
I do believe the protests are party fueled by being the first socially accepted opportunity to gather in large groups.
Nah. It was stolen from Ed Driscoll.
To racists, everything's racist.
Well, I read “hot monkey love” as imputed, that is the commenter is imagining how the chic protester describes it. In that Reading it’s a criticism of racism. But I might think differently if I knew who the commenter is. Taken straight up it kinda is.
Low certainty value.
Various people, including myself, have commented multiple times on this over the years.
During the 60s,anti-war demos were one of the best places for a white guy to get laid by white chicks.
A fair number of his attending the demos were only there for the sex
I don't suppose it would be any different now.
John Henry
Of course not.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=monkey%20love
P.J. O'Rourke described that, in different terms, as his own motivation to attend protests 'n' marches.
Also, AA, your lack of censorship is probably your most endearing quality.
Im guessing chuck.
John Henry
I think he's wrong. The rioters are clearly there to destroy. But I dont think its racist as it seems a clear majority of rioters and protestors are white. Whites make monkey love too. But, I get it, that phrase goes down the rabbit hole, Becky goes on.
I was a freshman in college in October 1969 when the Moratorium to End the Vietnam War happened. I participated in various protest activities because I did oppose the war.
However, I also was hoping to get a girlfriend in the process. I did not get one, though.
I posted this in the cafe post last night. Apologies for cross posting but it seems appropo here.
+++++++++++
In the 60s one of the black panther leaders SAS asked if there was any position for women In the black panther movement. Or perhaps it SAS "white women".
He famously replied "Prone"
I was reminded of this reading about the Black Lives Matter leader:
A viral video circulating on social media shows a young man purporting to be a Black Lives Matter member commanding a white woman to drop to her knees and apologize for her so-called white privilege to “show solidarity for the situation.
H/t Ace
Not bad. But once the woman is in this position, it's a minor next step to the guy unzipping his pants and telling the woman that she reallyneeds to prove she is serious about showing solidarity...
John Henry
If a hundred monkeys chained to typewriters eventually wrote Shakespeare it is not a question of how they wrote Shakespeare, but why they were chained to the typewriters in the first place.
Extrapolate from there.
I am Laslo.
Menahem Globus said...As an American of Irish descent I am always offended by comparisons of my people to apes.
No, you're not. One of the greatest things about the Irish people is we don't give two shits when somebody insults the Irish people. Don't screw that up with your weak-assed virtue signalling.
Howard said... Deplorables are always jealous of true virility.
Your guys were salivating over the crease in Obama's trousers.
Is that because of his assumed virility or yours?
Why run to the teacher, so to speak, over something like this? If you find something in the comments racist enough to email the host, why isn't racist enough to comment on directly?
@tim maguire --
Really? Why? Gilda Radner too? Who knew?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCm6U5V7MEg
Did you even bother to look it up?
Was the monkey lover wearing a Hawaiian shirt?
Howard said...Deplorables are always jealous of true virility.
And once again Howard misses the point. I'll catch you up here, Howard--the "virile" people in the post are going to the protests not because they support the cause but because they think they'll be able to score with chicks. They ARE the deplorables you claim are jealous.
No. Once everything is racist, nothing is racist. There has to be some sense made of this. It cannot just be that a thought, unattached to the actual photo with the article, is racist. The photo showed what we have all seen a lot of: white college kids, or recent college grads. And of course, at that age, who isn't looking for some hot monkey love?
Would it have made sense to call it Hot Hippo Love? Then you would have been accused of fat shaming.
In this Brave New World, no one is able to use any words or phrases anymore that have not yet been approved by the Central Register of Collective Consent (CROCC).
Answering your question: Hell no
@ Terry di Tufo --
Nope. Pre-dates Driscoll for sure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCm6U5V7MEg
@Althouse, just remember that if you can hear the dog whistle, then you’re the dog.
If you assume that monkeys are black and blacks are (like) monkeys, it's racist. But who, other than progs, does?
If you assume only blacks can have Hot Monkey Love, yes. But who, other than progs, does?
Then again, the question is not if something is or isn't racist, but who gets to decide.
Given prog hegemony, in the culture and the media, progs do, so racist it is.
And even if no monkey were mentioned, it would still be racist, since racism is systemic, and the system is everywhere, even and especially in posts on heretical right-wing blogs like Althouse.
Patrick Ewing and Ron Perlman have certain simian facial features. Just something obvious that I have observed. Am I racist?
The reference was to "Libs" which is not a race.
Was it meant to be insulting to Libs? Maybe. But honestly I cannot understand why wanting to get laid is bad. What a terrible insult, if insult it was.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yzHzc1zMPlA
Do it like they do on the Discovery Channel.
--Bloodhound Gang
Hardly. Nothing to do with race at all. It is reality. Young idiots doing exciting (to them!) things, stirs up the hormones. The feeling that you are in danger also gets the old juices flowing.
They right now only have the fantasy that they are in danger because the police have been muzzled and most people are more self controlled. For now.
Wait until they really are in danger...it won't be as much fun.
Blacks have the only culture without anything ridiculous about it.
Is the outraged reader a regular commenter or just some random reader? Why email instead of also commenting and telling the original commenter that the comment was inappropriate and why? It sounds like the emailer is just interested in being the thought police.
"Hot monkey sex" or "monkey love" just refers to sex without the inhibitions or worries (or expectations of future meetings) that people bring into a relationship. It had nothing to do with race. Sometimes I think the people most likely to see a racial aspect to something are the ones fighting their own inner racism.
"Monkey" can be an uncomfortable word because it has been used as an insult to blacks and Jews. I suggest the new phrase be "hot lemur love". I like the alliteration and everyone likes lemurs.
If you are looking for racism, you will [somehow] find it EVERYWHERE!
Just like all those folks that talk about dog whistles. Those righteous folks using that phrase think they are so sophisticated but somehow keep forgetting, if you can hear it, you are the dog.
In America it's always time to play "That's Racist!"
Separately Ellen made a bit of news by referring to POC when she should have said black. This shows left wingers believe their moment of triumph is near and thus the pretenses can be dropped.
"Immediately social media users flocked to Twitter to point out her message was 'tone-deaf' and 'hypocritical,' as many pointed to her friendship with friendship with George W. Bush."
More dropped pretenses as obviously GWB has nothing to do with the stated reason for the "Floyd" protests. This reveals the true message of these protests is the standard "We Hate Republicans" left wing political theater.
First reaction: D'uh.
Second reaction: Well, it sounds like it's talking about White "libs" (actually "progs"), not African-Americans, and "monkey" could mean "energetic" or something like that, so no.
Third reaction: Oh. I see.
Fourth reaction: D'uh.
Warburton said that the elephant was the only animal having no ridiculous aspect.
Maybe the offending comment should have used Muskrat Love instead of Monkey Love. Otherwise your complainer might want to find another blog with a comforting echo chamber vibe.
Do they want Althouse to mind-meld with all of her commenters and censor badthink over a word or adverb? Who has that ability or the time for that?
There are many commenters that I periodically don't agree with. Going crying to Mamma is not an adult action. Scroll past or engage on your own in a reasoned debate.
We can't possibly know unless we know whether or not the commenter was Caucasian.
Still not enough information.
White Progressive--not racist
White Liberal--racist but forgiven
White conservative--racist! The person must be fired, home attacked and children removed.
It would help if progs would tell us what's not racist.
But then, progs are not into helping.
Plus they want the flexibility.
I think most young guys at protests are just there to get a little strange. Remember the rape tents at Occupy?
Liberal woman are easy pickups for the "hump and dump". They have no self-esteem so they put out easily and they'll do things most girls won't. It's easy to dump them because deep down they know no one could really want to be with them.
It's great fun until you hookup with the psychodrama bitch. She'll make your life miserable for a few months.
It's Slut Shaming
First question to answer is what race the love making monkeys were . Then we apply affirmative action rules to approve or disapprove of the barrel of fun procreators. That way we establish who rules over us, who are the ones whom we cannot criticize.
I have used that term in my past without ever referring to black people. In my mind there was no racial component to the phrase. Intent matters a lot. If I am walking along on the sidewalk, and being distracted by my phone for a moment and I bump into someone walking the other way, is that an assault? If the other person is of a different race than I am is it a hate crime? If they THINK I meant to bump into them does that change my accidental act into a hate crime? It is true I did the bumping through my actions, but was it a racial hate crime just because the person on the receiving decided it was?
Mike Sylwester said...I was a freshman in college in October 1969 when the Moratorium to End the Vietnam War happened. I participated in various protest activities because I did oppose the war. However, I also was hoping to get a girlfriend in the process. I did not get one, though.
I was a HS junior at that time and participated in the (peaceful) shutdown of Northwestern U. There were quite a few tents for partying and balling. I didn't get lucky with the college girls, but a lot of college guys did.
I later came to call it "Friday afternoon at the Revolution".
The biggest problem for authorities? Too many drug overdoses.
Our cats think we are all monkeys, no matter what our color or background.
They are, of course, irredeemably racist.
The comment made my monkey feel unsafe.
In Wisconsin, "hot monkey love" is sex with anyone not from Wisconsin.
I guess people get hung up on the word monkey. The poster was talking about Woodstock too for crying out loud. Woodstock was almost all white. Does not really look like it was ment to show the urge for sex can be primal or animal like.
No.
But this does illustrate the current norm of not referring to monkeys and apes when blacks are in the vicinity. Looting is right out, for other reasons. And whatever you do, don't use words like niggardly.
Todd makes that now well known point: if you can hear the dog whistle, you're the dog.
@Howard: About the only thing I agree with you on is your Uncle Bunky" picture.
Of course the Liberal/leftist wanted to censor. They ALWAYS want to Censor and gate-keep anyone they dislike. I hope Althouse told him to Fuck off.
Why don't we just delete the word "Monkey" from the dictionary since it ALWAYS has racial connotations. Instead we can substitute the word "Kumquat". This word can also replace "Ape" "Baboon" and all other words faintly related to members of the monkey family.
IRC, Howard Cosell was fired from Football announcing because he declared "Look at that little Monkey Run!" when a black half-back scored an amazing touchdown. If Howard ha said "Look at that Kumquat run!" no one would've cared.
"How to Pick Up Girls" books in the Seventies always recommended going to anti-war demonstrations, "even if you are for the war."
Gilda Radner: Kevin says: “Gilda, settle a bet – my wife, Kevin, says you always start the show with the words ‘Give me all your hot monkey love,’ and I say she’s wrong.” Well, Kevin, your wife Kevin is wrong. No matter what the opening, no matter how ill-conceived, how unprepared we are, we always start the show with “Live, from New York, it’s Saturday Night!“
"My wife, Kevin" isn't because they had gay marriage back then, but because every name in the sketch was "Kevin." Somebody thought that would be funny. The host that night was OJ Simpson, so if Gilda was being racist, she might have not have lasted as long as she did. RIP
Remember Carlin's comedy routine about 7 words. Maybe someone can do one about "Monkey".
If you hear rhe whistle....
I've spent most of my life in cities, actually two cities: one in the North (The Big Apple--THE city), and the other in the South (basically a suburb wrapped around a ghetto). Both places have their share of crazy people, Caucasian and Negro; but I was reflecting, after an incident yesterday, how the latter crazies tend to be more vocal and aggressive. (This is just an impressionistic observation, so if your mileage varies, fine.) I wonder if a significant percentage of the burn-baby-burn canaille, come out from under the woodwork to lend their voices (including the ones in their head) to the ranks of the rampaging lumpenproletariat. Just a thought.
Can you spank that monkey?
Hot Otter Love? Hot Cat/Dog Love? Hot Turkey love?
No, for some reason the animal in question must have at least two syllables and be the right species. "M" words seem to fit well. "Muskrat Love" seems to fit the bill. Or what about "Hot Mongooose Love"?
Can birds Make "Hot love"? I don't think so. Same with reptiles, insects, and fish.
"Hot Catfish Love" "Hot Dolphin Love" - Just doesn't sound right.
Mike Sylwester said...I was a freshman in college in October 1969 when the Moratorium to End the Vietnam War happened. I participated in various protest activities because I did oppose the war. However, I also was hoping to get a girlfriend in the process. I did not get one, though.
My position back then was to Make Love AND War.
(pause)
bada bing.
I'm pretty sure this phrase is inspired by Bonobos and their famously uninhibited attitude toward sex. I've heard it many times, never with any racial aspect whatsoever.
The "dogwhistle" comments upthread are on point.
btw, this is the typical SJW/Neo-con/Leftist move. You DON'T pushback in the comments against something you don't like. Instead, you contact the blog owner, Network Executive, Publisher/Editor, and demand they censor the comment in question and fire/deplatform the writer.
In my opinion, this attitude is UnAmerican, cowardly and disgusting - but Americans these days will accept ANYTHING.
Im guessing chuck.
John Henry
Note: there are two "chucks". Big "C"huck and little "c"huck.
"Chuck" did show up the other day. Something about Trump's "word vomit". He is the resident male version of a "Karen". As I recall, when he first started posting here he tried to "correct" Ann on her choice of things to post and the way she stated things, and would whine to her about other commenters being mean to him.
"chuck" is a good guy - I occasionally jump over to "Flares into Darkness" blog where he is one of the contributors.
if LoveTrumpsHate does it matter if it is HotMonkey or not?
Liberal woman are easy pickups for the "hump and dump". They have no self-esteem so they put out easily and they'll do things most girls won't
My experience bears this out.Young Women that gravitate to "causes" live their life on raw emotions. The sex was good, but an attempt to get a little deeper, to share values was impossible. Emotions, not thought ruled everyting.
Older women I wouldn't know, having been married years, I haven't been exposed to that sub-culture.
Progressives and academics, who imagine they follow science, have such a blind spot when it comes to what's happened over the last two weeks. To them, systemic racism is the root cause of the violence and mayhem but to social scientists (who have been studying this for decades) the answer is more complex and points more to dysfunctional families enabled by a welfare system that creates an endless loop of poverty and desperation. And how can we ever recover as a nation if the media, politicians, celebrities and law enforcement are saying that kneeling and self-loathing is what's needed most? It's truly mind numbing.
Mike Petrik said...
@tim maguire --
Really? Why? Gilda Radner too? Who knew?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCm6U5V7MEg
Did you even bother to look it up?
The protests are about racial justice--racism, issues of blackness in America. "Monkey" is a well-known racial epithet. The determined obtuseness, the fake "whaaaa? of the people here trying to say that monkey is not racist in this context is tiresome.
Don't raise the level of stupidity by pretending that there's something I need to look up.
As an American of Irish descent I am always offended by comparisons of my people to apes.
Humans are apes, and great ones at that, by their own reckoning, so it's a dumb thing to get offended about.
They even include an Irish guy in the picture - bottom row, center.
Howard said...
No. And for a statistically significant nonzero percentage, true. Deplorables are always jealous of true virility.
Curious, because your posts are the definition of fapping.
Also curious, "you people" are the cognitive elite vanguard of the Radiant Future, right? So is this rioting the product of people who should instead be off somewhere curing COVID and effecting the renewable energy miracle?
Karen behavior: get an authority figure to enforce your will upon a lower status person.
Mike Sylwester said...I was a freshman in college in October 1969 when the Moratorium to End the Vietnam War happened. I participated in various protest activities because I did oppose the war.
I too was a freshman (woman 😁) In college in San Francisco. I was ambivalent about the war. I didn't think we should be there. Didn't really understand why we were there. My family was then and still is your typical Bay Area Liberal mindset.
I resented that many of my friends from school were being pressed into the war. I was so afraid for them. Afraid for my brother who was draft age.
BUT.. more than that, I resented the attitudes of the protestors. Calling the military personnel most of whom didn't WANT to be there baby killers, spitting on them. My FRIENDS who didn't want to go, were drafted.....were not baby killers or bad people. Some of them were killed early in the war.
Many of those "protestors" were deferred, being supported by their parents, not working. Nice to have the leisure time to riot and protest. They were hyper judgemental of people they didn't know and completely ignorant of things that they had no fear of happening to themselves. Treating the protesting like a fun, exciting, activity. Wooo Hooo...look at us being so very virtuous.
In addition!!! I was working a full time 40 hours a week job and carrying a full course load at the College in SF. Paying for everything myself. Rent, tuition, books, food, transportation. My days were full of work, work, and school....(with as much fun as I could squeeze in, of course)
Whenever I tried to get to class, inbetween my split shifts....or coming off my evening shit...I was impeded by the protestors. Blocking the way. Chanting. Hurting people. Laughing it up..... I had to get to class to not be late. I had to get to work to not get fired. I had to catch the bus or street car or else. I was working night and day and had no time for this bullshit.
My life is not your party. Nor is it your right to destroy. Protest, sure. Do constructive things. Riot, harm others NO.
I hated those people. I still do. Sorry Mike. If you were one of those assholes. Hope you grew up.
It makes me sad that the once very liberal view is now called "the Zuckerberg view" and it is something someone doesn't agree with.
Sorry Mike. Nothing personal.
I just get a tad riled up when I think back on it.
🥵
"Expose NYT staff and readers to ANY opposing opinion or even simply a headline suggesting a deviance from current prof orthodoxy and they go apeshit."
Was this racist?
He mentioned apes and shit.
And in a post that questions the NYT bias, to boot.
/sarc
Dear People Who Don't Subscribe to the Zuckerberg View:
Back in the day when it was voices that agreed with *you* who were suppressed, the people who were doing it weren't doing it because they believed you to be so right you couldn't be heard. The people who didn't want to hear that Jim Crow laws were bad or that gay people should marry weren't not wanting to hear it because they thought it was so good it needed to be surpassed. They thought the voices that believed those things were pushing ideas that were dangerous, hurtful, bad for the country, bad for humanity. They wanted those voices stifled for what they believed to be good reasons.
Now, I think they were wrong and I'm guessing you think they were wrong. But their intentions were exactly what your intentions are. The same is true of people who had ideas like....prohibition. That was actually considered a progressive idea! But it was a disaster.
You don't allow dissenting or offensive voices because *you* think they are right. Maybe you can't imagine people in the past who have not wanted dissent did it out of some fear that they were wrong. The opposite is true. They believed strongly in their righteousness and just knew that it was right for everyone. Don't be that person. You might be right, you might be wrong, but you can't control people out of their bad ideas. You can't control them into seeing things your way. You have the freedom to disagree and hopefully the freedom to express that disagreement.
Subscribe to the Zuckerberg view.
The Althouse comments pages are the very best thing on the internet. Please don't change what you are doing.
I was just changing a GFCI outlet, and noticed that it had wire inputs labelled "White" and "Hot (Black)".
That's also racist. And I'm insulted.
Freder-
So you - as a white progressive male, thinks it's racist for a white man to hook up with a black woman?
why?
Ice Nine wins the thread with his first comment. Nothing more for me to add.
One more thing about the Zuckerberg view though:
He *did* think it was important to censor information he believed was contrary to the public health. The group organizing protests in Michigan was censored because it was contrary to the public health.
Now we see epidemiologists on Twitter saying...well this cause is way too important to enforce stay at home orders. So we know their proscriptions for us are political as much as scientific.
But Zuckerberg did not consider that when we had to censor dissenting voices against "science" and "public health".
I DO hope people who tried to shame me and Bay Area Guy and Achilles and Sebastian and Pants (and others) because we didn't think the lockdowns were quite right...I would love to hear what you think of all of this now.
If white holier-than-thou speech-crime progressives think the that blacks and whites should never have sex with each other - isn't THAT racist?
If white holier than thou speech-crime progressives think the that blacks and whites should never have sex with each other - isn't THAT racist?
" Howard said...
It's Slut Shaming"
Howard has now resorted to wantonly throwing around woke shibboleths, trying to find something that will have an effect. Rather like a monkey throwing poo, which is the standard mode of 'argument' for Progs.
"I do subscribe to the Zuckerberg view."
Whether you read this or not: thank you.
PJ O'Rourke's description of unhinged chaos is "monkeys at a salad bar".
Vivid and raceless.
I want to have hot sweaty sex with Van Jones. Am I racist?
I also know that Anarchist Antifa thugs are real. That definitely makes me racist.
Shark. Jumped.
Wow, I've got two tags now! One with and one without the space!
Is Jungle Love a racist song?
Thread Music.
And seriously, Althouse, you should mark Chuck e-mails as spam.
Just about any colorful derogatory phrase can be taken as as a racial or ethnic or sexual slur by somebody if they're in a mood to be offended, maybe because you can be sure that somebody used such a phrase in such a way about members of another group.
FWIW: "Muskrat" doesn't have the wild, funky connotations of "monkey," and the "Muskrat love" song is so sickeningly sweet that it doesn't convey what's wanted here. Come to think of it, "funky" has some of the same problems as "monkey."
It's odd, but unlike certain people, every time I accuse someone of racism I really mean it. And if challenged on it, I will either reconsider and decide I was wrong and then say so -- and this happens every now and then -- or I will go into to it deeper and explain things in detail. In fact I will probably enjoy the exercise of explaining the blatant racism that somehow many people are ignoring (which is often the case). And it will be demonstrable and blatant because if it's not demonstrable I see no point in talking about it.
I wouldn't accuse someone of racism over a trivial phrase like "hot monkey love," because even if I were actually almost sure they meant it in a racist sense, that would be my opinion, which in general would be hard to prove, not to mention that it would be such a laughable, trivial sort of racism.
If I call a Frenchman a “cheese-eating surrender monkey”, is that racist? Does it depend on his skin color?
When I use to listen to Michael Medveds radio show he would reminisce about his time as a democrat and an anti war protestor. He said one reason he went to the protests was to meet woman.
Some people don't want to engage in open debate. They want censorship.
And they want other people to do it for them.
Before the offending pixels meet their precious eyes.
And their whole day lies in ruins.
The key here is historical context, and so yes, this is an offensive phrase because here it is unnecessarily (and pejoratively) deployed as a description of Antiracist, largely African American protesters. Any "yes it is, no it is not" binary debate totally misses the point. Language and its meanings are not fixed; no amount of research; attribution of intent on the part of the writer; or pointing to particular examples of the use of "hot monkey love" as entirely innocent applies in this specific case. At a time when it is well known that white supremacists have perfected the "dog whistle" by appropriating words and symbols-such as the hand signal for "OKAY"--allowing them plausible deniability while signaling to their followers, a comment overtly raising the specter (deliberately or not) of the long, despicable tradition linking African Americans and monkeys should not be given a public platform. Again, depersonalizing the remark from any intentions by the author or ways it is understood by the blogger or by other blog commentators, a comment like this can absolutely function to build community amongst white supremacists.
Monkey Man, Rolling Stones, 1969.
https://youtu.be/o8uVSzVY8kQ
I'm a fleabit peanut monkey
And all my friends are junkies
That's not really true
I'm a cold Italian pizza
I could use a lemon squeezer
What you do?
But I've been bit and I've been tossed around
By every she-rat in this town
Have you babe?
But I am just a monkey man
I'm glad you are a monkey woman too
I was bitten by a boar
I was gouged and I was gored
But I pulled on through
Yeah, I'm a sack of broken eggs
I always have an unmade bed
Don't you?
Well I hope we're not too messianic
Or a trifle too satanic
But we love to play the blues
But well I am just a monkey man
I'm glad you are a monkey woman too
Monkey woman too babe
I'm a monkey man
I'm a monkey man
I'm a monkey man
I'm a monkey man
I'm a monkey
I'm a monkey
I'm a monkey
I'm a monkey
Monkey, monkey
Monkey
Monkey
I'm a monkey
If you see someone write the word "monkey", and you assume they are referring to someone that is black; then maybe you should ask yourself, "am I the racists for making that connection?"
The best take I've seen on social media is that where others see "a black man being killed by a white cop", others see "an innocent person being killed by a corrupt cop". See, the latter take doesn't look at the problem by first judging people by the color of their skin. I do realize that such a hot take doesn't make money for BLM, which first identifies support by the color of skin.
"Not a great way to use your white privilege, Ladies."
"Maybe the offending comment should have used Muskrat Love instead of Monkey Love."
Or Monkee Love. Those guys were all white, so that should be okay. Right?
The “outraged reader” should go fuck itself. If it was racist, so what. Watch the white and black rioters hopping on cop car roofs and tell me they don’t look like monkeys.
What ISN"T racist when it can help forward Progressive agendas??
(some of whom are people of color)
...and there's the rub. These protesters tend to be overwhelmingly white in many locales. Is it now considered racist to attribute 'hot monkey love' to white people claiming to protest on behalf of blacks?
More likely the concern troll is one of the same white nitiwits who used to write a letter to The Economist every time they used niggardly in an article.
If you're unfamiliar with the phrase "hot monkey love", you're really ... well, here's a term you'll recognize: square. Do you associate with anyone under age 65?
Ice Nine said...
Patrick Ewing and Ron Perlman have certain simian facial features. Just something obvious that I have observed. Am I racist?
You're not only racist, but also Anti-semitic!
Racist and racism is becoming the new fuck. Soon it will lose pretty much it's shock value like the word fuck. Soon enough people who are being called racist will say to the ones accusing them of racism "you must have me confused with someone who gives a fuck about what you say." Followed by " what the fuck are you going to do about it'?
Several years ago friends in a jazz band would occasionally play in a small funky club just South of San Diego State University called "Hot Monkey Love". If I remember correctly, it was either owned or managed by a lovely black lady and probably half of the musicians who played there were black.
Is it politically correct to call that good times? Asking for a friend.
It's time to play "Was that racist?"
There's no need to play...everything is always racist. (And if you don't see that, you're extra super racist, and probably a transphobe, too.)
When you are a nail everything looks like a hammer.
Right now, the comment count is "69".
Just sayin'.
Right now, the comment count is "69".
Just sayin'.
My first thought was 'who is that crybaby'? not that it actually matters, but it adds a little more context.
White monkeys. Black monkeys. Orange Monkeys. Albino monkeys. Do the monkeys have names? Are they a color bloc? Jewish monkeys? Diversity breeds adversity.
Humorist P. J. I'm Rourke long ago stated that his only motivation for attending anti- war rallies in the '60s was to get laid.
when everything is racist, then nothing is racist
BleachBit:
On what evidence do you conclude Freder is a man? What behavior has he exhibited that betray manhood?
I suggest you are incorrect.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Morris Day and The Time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2FPQvwhSDY
In the Movie "From Here to Eternity" the Ernest Borgnine character, a mean mutha of a brute whoops on the Frank Sinatra character (Maggio) calling him a wop and a greaseball and a "tough little monkey." Still not sure whether the monkey jibe referred to Maggio's being Italian or not. I do know tough little monkey referred to just that--a diminutive tough guy. Monkey's after all are small compared to humans and possess about 8 times our strength.
I also know that if every simile and metaphor becomes verboten it takes all the poetry out of life. And will make for some awful tame dialog.
By the way, Maggio kills the brute.
The intent might have been clearer if the poster had said: Mostly lookin for that Jungle Fever Hot Monkey Love the libs all crave.
I took it as a racial reference, but hardly racist. My 25 ultra leftie step-daughter made a reference to "melanated music" a couple of days ago. It took me awhile to figure that out. It was obviously a racial reference, but hardly racist.
- Krumhorn
Karen-esque Nancy Rose has outed herself as the letter writer. Thank you for playing, everyone.
Borgnine really was a tough guy, unlike Sinatra.
He was a USN sailor before WW2, one of the old pre-war professionals.
And he was as Italian as Sinatra.
NM Marshall said: Language and its meanings are not fixed; no amount of research; attribution of intent on the part of the writer; or pointing to particular examples of the use of "hot monkey love" as entirely innocent applies in this specific case.
The question posed by AA was precisely about "intent on the part of the writer." Arguments about that necessarily involve examples of customary use of the term.
Your argument is as incoherent as your use of the semicolon.
Anti-war? Nah...I'm just here for the hippy pussy.
When everything is racist, then nothing is. People have been saying that for years. If certain folks can't understand why claims of racism constantly fall on deaf ears it's because we tuned them out a long time ago.
cubanbob said...
Racist and racism is becoming the new fuck. Soon it will lose pretty much it's shock value like the word fuck."
A lot of us reached that point 20 years ago.
It’s a little species-ist but since it suggests that monkeys are having BETTER sex than humans, it’s OK. Like comparing men and women is OK when women come out on top (at least for the cis-gendered).
Sucks to be the owners of this place: "Where humans are caged and monkeys run wild!"
Good luck with the rebranding campaign!
"By the way, Maggio kills the brute."
Prewitt, Montgomery Clift, kills him.
My money's on MoDo, not Gilda.
@ Nancy Rose Marshall
"The key here is historical context, and so yes, this is an offensive phrase because here it is unnecessarily (and pejoratively) deployed as a description of Antiracist, largely African American protesters."
To assert this you have to ignore the phrase's historical context, not rely on it. And given that history it is irrationally presumptuous to ascribe such an sinister motive. You should be ashamed actually.
Is Jungle Love a racist song?
Yes, and also a sexist song. And a great song.
OH WE OH WE OH!
a comment like this can absolutely function to build community amongst white supremacists.
My gawd. Someone dummber than Inga stumbled onto the site.
"Wow, I've got two tags now! One with and one without the space!"
I'll fix it.
My gawd. Someone dummber than Inga stumbled onto the site.
I was bored with the thread until Nancy Rose Marshall got me laughing hysterically.
Nancy, you ignorant slut! Dog whistles? unheard by human ears. Silence (no action), is violence? Buncha white kids laying on their bellies with their hands behind their backs is "stickin it to the man"? Having been a marshall for a major anti war march I've seen your ilk up close and personal. Heard We Don't Get Fooled Again? Well you have been. Dog Whistles? Only in that vast wasteland between your ears. 6 days of "demonstrations"? I see a bunch of empty slates standing around guessing at meaning. I also see wasteoids like yourself battling it out with each other to be the next Abbie Hoffman. You are a Fluke of the Universe, and whether you can hear it or not the universe is laughing behind your back.
NM Marshall said: Language and its meanings are not fixed; no amount of research; attribution of intent on the part of the writer; or pointing to particular examples of the use of "hot monkey love" as entirely innocent applies in this specific case.
The most important requirement for any political definition is that it remain sufficiently subjective that it can both (1) apply to anything the right-most party in the conflict says and also (2) not apply to anything the left-most party in the conflict says even if the statements are exactly the same.
So mission accomplished.
Freder, your mind is a crime against humanity.
I first encountered the notion that protesting was sexy in the 1970 movie, Getting Straight. (with Elliot Gould and Candace Bergen)
(Candice Bergen) "How can you be so cavalier? Did you see what was going on out there? It was ugly."
(Elliott Gould) "No. That protest -- was sexy."
(Candice Bergen) "Sexy?"
(Elliott Gould) "Do you think you're the only one who got laid tonight?"
I could not find the next lines of dialog, but I remember (not verbatim) from 50 years ago.
"Sexy...how can you say that?!"
"You were so wet when you came in you almost slid across the bed"
Nothing irks me more than the urge many seem to feel to want to engage in censorship when something goes against ones ideas.
It’s really getting tiresome. I think I can handle looting more easily.
@ Not Sure --
"Your argument is as incoherent as your use of the semicolon."
Three degrees from Yale have been known to cause semi-colon infatuation. The seriousness of the condition generally correlates nicely with the seriousness of the surrounding text.
“ John Lynch said...
Karen behavior: get an authority figure to enforce your will upon a lower status person”
Yes and this person also wrote:
“If you were currently tied to the University, the law school would be appalled at your reaction (not that you were initially ignorant, which I said was understandable). ... Excuse me for trying to educate you, and simply giving you a heads up on what can readily perceived as racist.”
He wanted to speak to my manager... but I don’t have one.
“initially ignorant” = I didn’t know someone had said “hot monkey love”... plus he thinks he “educated” me that it is an overtly racist term.
This is just the tip of the iceberg of life in Madison. This is someone who insists that he is especially open minded (because he’s in Madison and the standard is comparative).
A lot of hostility is aimed at me IRL.
The individual that made that statement is clearly confused. What's the saying? "If only you can hear the dog whistle, maybe you're the dog."
He/she demonstrates an appalling lack of self awareness.
I hope I'm wrong, but I have the distinct impression that the message "excuse me for trying to educate you" is really stating: "the problem isn't 4 bad cops in Minneapolis, the problem is YOU."
Blogger PM said...
"By the way, Maggio kills the brute."
'Prewitt, Montgomery Clift, kills him.'
Thank you and right you are.
For me, the worst fading of age is that of recall. My once near infallible memory and ability to retain has fractured and the bits that work are not those I choose.
At least Nancy Rose Marshall is a better speller than Jim at.
Nancy Rose Marshall:
...largely African American protesters.
Not here in Los Angeles. The protests here have mostly been in two areas, West Hollywood/Hollywood and Downtown. From what I've seen from the news footage, most of the protesters are white. The numbers jump up even more when you throw in the one-off protests that took place in Santa Monica and Westwood. I'm not saying they didn't happen, but for what it's worth, I have yet to see on the news protests taking place in the traditionally black neighborhoods of LA.
Wow. My finger hit the 'm' twice while quickly typing on a phone.
I most certainly have been put in my place.
Booga Booga.
My son texted my daughter that rioters were "chimping out" and got a response telling him to stop being racist. It took many more texts to explain to her that the expression was non-racial and based on his days as a college student, where it meant to angrily throw a fit, like a lower primate throwing poo.
The old Protein Wisdom blog long ago argued that intention belongs to the speaker, and is not up to interpretation by the listener who claims offense as a mere tool to censor.
The left is always saying how they are the believers in science and accusing the right of being anti-science. As long as I can remember scientists have been saying that humans came from apes. So using the logic of the commenter both the left and scientists are racists.
Once you know somebody is offended by something, you should consider refraining from saying it that way. I wouldn’t continue with that “chimping” language. It’s subject to misunderstanding and it would be better to find some other way to say it. But it’s wrong to try to punish someone for sayIng it when they had no idea.
As for “hot monkey love,” I would avoid it because it could be misunderstood, and it was bad to see it arise where it might be seen as referring to black people, but I think the intention was to say “sex” humorously.
It’s the Era of That’s Not Funny.
"My son texted my daughter that rioters were "chimping out" and got a response telling him to stop being racist."
That's funny. I was going to say that "Hot Monkey Love" is not racist because monkeys are small and skinny. Hot Monkey Love makes me think of fucking some skinny but good-looking chick who likes to be on top. A few come to mind, all white. What I was thinking would be racist is "chimping out", because there is a move a lot of black thugs perform when they are resorting to violence that looks exactly like what chimpanzees do when they are resorting to violence. Plus the nose, of course.
Anyway, who cares? That dumb, fucking Marshall cunt?
"Once you know somebody is offended by something, you should consider refraining from saying it that way."
What if the intention was to offend him? What if you have concluded that you are never going to get along with him, and the best bet is to make him steer clear of you? Or is that a conclusion good people don't arrive at?
"As for “hot monkey love,” I would avoid it because it could be misunderstood ..."
I will say, that you are better than most at making your ideas clear. But DFC Marshall wasn't talking about difficulties discerning meanings, she was talking about denying a "platform" to certain speakers. She's a witch and she's for burning.
When we pulled the last troops out of Vietnam
I thought you'd have more time for screwing
How could I have been so blind to women's rights and such
There's always so much to be doing
As for “hot monkey love,” I would avoid it because it could be misunderstood
Tell me something, Althouse. Why do people well to the left of center confuse monkeys and black humans? We conservatives recognize that black people are a component of h. sapiens but lefties seem to keep confusing them with monkeys. Is that because they are the racists?
Ann, I agree in principle. That said, it has become commonplace to make ridiculous assertions re the use of innocent words (e.g., "Chinese Wall", "niggardly") in order to advance a contrived grievance claim. This is a form of bullying, and we should not allow it to happen.
“ What if the intention was to offend him? ”
I said “consider”... so you’d consider it and do it... unless you had a better way to offend. But I would say it’s bad to use race as your mode of offending. You can do better. I recommend something about the individual, not the group.
As for “niggardly,” it’s a useless word now. Avoid it.
As for “niggardly,” it’s a useless word now. Avoid it
Useless? adjective or adverb It communicates the idea someone is stingy. Not sure why you would command to avoid it except for the racial connotation confusion. Are you trying to censor?
"You can do better. I recommend something about the individual, not the group."
You're right, of course. It's like profanity. If I were to ponder the matter, I could find a clearer and more convincing way to describe what's wrong with that dumb fucking cunt Marshall. I could go back there and reread her comment -- actually, read past the middle of the second sentence, by which time the need to call her a dumb fucking cunt was causing a dangerous overheating of my cerebral cortex -- characterize the nature of her argument, and produce an analysis that might even persuade someone who is open to agreeing with me, but is turned off by my calling a female commenter a dumb, fucking cunt.
I won't even include a "But ...". You're right.
Ann --
I do avoid it. Precisely because I am not immune to bullying. Do you honestly think that those who object to the use of the word are sincere?
... it’s a useless word now. Avoid it.
NEVER!!! That would be parsimonious.
I was taught to never monkey with another monkey's monkey.It could cause a misunderstanding.
GWB was routinely referred to as Chimpy and drawn as a monkey. Oh for the days of yore.
Also pusillanimous.
@Althouse, being serious now, I will use "niggardly" whenever it applies (which isn't all that often). Sorry, but neither you nor anyone else has the right to dictate which words I can use and which I cannot.
There's a line in the sand. You are right up against it.
I disagree with our hostess about the use of such perfectly good words as niggardly, at least in general. But as I understand it Ann's position is not one of censorship other than self-censorship. Her position is that self-censorship in such cases advances communication and avoids unnecessary ill will. I agree with her that self-censorship is sensible and appropriate in cases where it would genuinely promote communication and avoid accidental hard feelings. I just disagree that the use of the words at issue (whether Chinese Wall, niggardly or monkey love) actually impairs communication or causes ill will. I believe that the objections are entirely insincere and contrived by those who use faux outrage to bully and virtue signal. The proof is that when the actual meaning of the words are explained, the objections continue. This is because the complainants do not care about either objective meaning or subjective intent. They only care about their opportunity to bully and virtue signal.
True story -- A former colleague of mine sent firm-wide email explaining the terms of a new engagement and the establishment of a Chinese Wall pertaining to that engagement. He was called on the carpet and forced to apologize to some lawyer in another office who claimed offense. What risible rubbish.
My initial reaction was that it sounded racist to me. I felt that for several reasons:
1) it's a sarcastic attack against the BLM protesters meant to minimize their beliefs and reasons for their protests;
2) The protests are mostly mixed;
3) Hot Monkey Love, while not an inherently racist term can be if it is meant to demean inter-racial relationships, which in the context of that comment the commenter is demeaning the authenticity of people's feelings about their cause.
Although full disclosure I may be more sensitive to this because I'm a white guy and my partner is African.
After reading the Althouse post, I guess it's possible that it wasn't meant as racist, it's just a stupid sarcastic comment and the commenter didn't mean it to be racist, just meant it to be tribal making fun of libs, progs, or dems.
Honestly the problems in the comments here are mostly tribalism and not racism, which isn't really any better. Most of the arguments made in the comments are entirely based on the persons belief that the other side are a bunch of snowflake, stupid, candy ass, morons who just don't know any better.
The comments should be self regulated, if I see something that's racist or stupid I will call out the commenter, not email @Althouse.
Also Gilda Radner is not a racist, she's dead. The hot monkey love joke is from 1978. Comedy is an art form that pushes up against the offensive and saying something isn't racist because it was used on network TV 42 years ago would be like Gilda defending herself because in 1936 George Burns used hot monkey love in a bit with Gracie.
"Useless? adjective or adverb It communicates the idea someone is stingy...."
Yeah, so you have the word "stingy." There's also frugal, miserly, cheap, chintzy, close-fisted, grudging, parsimonious, scrimping, and more.
Why would you ever pick "niggardly"? The inference that you're trying to make people feel bad is there whether you mean it or not. The alternative is that you're not operating on a high enough level to notice. No reason to want to be either of those people. I'm giving you good advice here. Take it or leave it.
"Although full disclosure I may be more sensitive to this because I'm a white guy and my partner is African.
Oh, isn't Lance woke! Good for you, Lance. What a sharp, long tool you are!
"Do you honestly think that those who object to the use of the word are sincere?"
I don't know what they think they are doing but they marginalize themselves. It's at least dumb and tone-deaf. Weird to be that bad at language and to pose as caring a lot about language -- having a lot of extra words to show off with or make very fine points. I'm sure some of them are very fine points...
Wikipedia has an article, "Controversies about the word 'niggardly.'"
Excerpt:
"On January 15, 1999, David Howard, an aide to Anthony A. Williams, the mayor of Washington, D.C., used "niggardly" in reference to a budget.[6] This apparently upset one of his black colleagues, who misinterpreted it as a racial slur and lodged a complaint. As a result, on January 25, Howard tendered his resignation, and Williams accepted it.[7] However, after public pressure, an internal review into the matter was brought about, and the mayor offered Howard the chance to return to his position as Office of the Public Advocate on February 4. Howard refused but accepted another position with the mayor instead, insisting that he did not feel victimized by the incident. On the contrary, Howard felt that he had learned from the situation. "I used to think it would be great if we could all be colorblind; that's naïve, especially for a white person, because a white person can't [sic] afford to be colorblind. They don't have to think about race every day. An African American does." It had been speculated that this incident inspired Philip Roth's novel The Human Stain,[8] though Roth has stated that his source was an incident in the career of sociologist and professor Melvin Tumin."
Ann --
I very much recall the Howard incident. I honestly do not understand the mentality. I can see how one can make an honest mistake and not know the innocent meaning of "niggardly," but for the life of me I cannot see how the complaint survives the explanation -- which it would have in the Howard case but for a public pressure that probably would not occur today.
I stand by my earlier explanation. Some people simply enjoy the exercise of arbitrary power. My earlier Chinese Wall episode (a true story!) is an example, as is the revolting behavior of Derek Chauvin. Certainly the gravity of a loss of job is not comparable to that of the loss of life, but all bullying is wrong.
I cannot completely agree with your point about the use of the word "niggardly." I used it regularly and without either incident or a second thought before the Howard affair, but then stopped in order to avoid a similar hassle. But there is a difference between avoiding a word in order to avoid giving genuine offense -- like taking the name of God in vain around my Aunt Pat -- and avoiding a word in order to avoid giving someone looking for an opportunity to kick your ass the opportunity to kick your ass.
Make no mistake. Bullies receive disordered enjoyment from the exercise of power, and today the assertion of a grievance claim is often the easiest and cheapest way to secure opportunities for such exercise. Bullying is pathological, but rewarding them is worse.
There was a local gov meeting somewhere in Texas where a white member referred to wasting money on a worthless project as "Throwing money down a black hole." A black member became enraged at this "racist" comment and claimed to have not heard of black holes in outer space.
There's a lot of things you can't say if you try to satisfy these bullies, and you still won't satisfy them.
@Althouse, I was the victim of an incident that predated the Howard incident. I needed to buy a spade for the garden and went to a nearby hardware store. The young black clerk asked if I needed help and I told him that I needed a spade. He went off like a crazy man. I recounted the incident to a neighbor a few days later, and he said that I must have been sorry to have inadvertently upset the young man. I agreed, but what I was thinking was that the hardware store should never have hired someone who didn't know what a spade is.
I can't help it if a black person is so ignorant that they don't know that "niggardly" is unrelated to a coarse slang word demeaning to black people, or what a black hole is, or the difference between a shovel and a spade. And I refuse to make it in my problem to grasp the depths of ignorance of allegedly educated people.
Big Mike, I agree. That said, I have no problem giving a heartfelt qualified apology to the sincerely offended accompanied by an explanation of course. The problem is that in all too many cases this is insufficient. Only an allocution composed solely of an abject unqualified admission of guilt might be sufficient.
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