May 25, 2020

"But wait, there's something weird about arguing that hazmat suits shouldn't be worn because they could give you 'a false sense of security.'"

"That seems like an all-purpose reason not to take just about any safety measures. The government used to say that's a reason not to wear masks, until the government started saying we need to wear masks."

My son John reacts to a WaPo article that asks "Should you wear a hazmat suit on a plane?"

The WaPo article quotes a CDC official who says "Wearing a hazmat suit on an airplane is unnecessary and could cause undue concern for other travelers." Likewise, wearing a mask could cause undue concern.

And what amount of concern is "due"? And as for that "false sense of security" — you're never 100% secure, so what part of whatever sense of security you have is "false"?

These things are changing all the time and are quite subjective. To what extent do you feel safe, and when are you going too far doing things to make you feel safe or that make others feel unsafe? Which precautions are enough? Notice that you're supposed to think about: 1. Your actual safety, 2. Your feelings about safety (which may or may not be grounded in actual safety), 3. Other people's actual safety, 4. How the things you do make other people feel about their safety. And while we're at it: 5. What other people might be thinking about your caring about their safety, and 6. Whether other people are judging you as overdoing it and being ridiculous.

It's quite complicated.

104 comments:

Josephbleau said...

Complicated is not the word. Ridiculous is the word.

Narayanan said...

for a law professor (may be I should say alleged) not to realize and hold as background that this theater is all about legal jeopardy not science or life.

other than that carry on

Kevin said...

Not to be outdone, the NYT is whipping up a host of reasons we need to stay in our homes and not venture back to work:

The coronavirus won't be the only health threat lurking in office buildings once they reopen. Stagnant water in dormant plumbing may carry Legionnaire's disease, which kills 1 out of every 10 people. Health officials say the bacteria spreads quickly when toilets are flushed and bathroom taps are turned on. Research also shows that elevators are breeding grounds for illnesses, since droplets can linger in hard-to-ventilate spaces long after someone exits. Meantime, labor watchdog OSHA has issued updated guidelines, beefing up in-person workplace inspections and prioritizing those involving the coronavirus.

Again, the bias in the articles goes only one way. There are no articles telling people that warnings may be overblown, or that things aren't as dire as some say they may be.

Two-eyed Jack said...

Althouse: "It's quite complicated."
Me: "All the answers are: I don't think about it. And P.S. I'm dumb."

Skeptical Voter said...

The New York Times should also note that a tree can topple over in a windstorm and hit you--or even without a windstorm as the tree outside a Berkeley sorority house toppled over one night and crushed one of my law school classmates two month old Porsche Carrera. Fortunately neither he nor a coed were in the car at the time. Or an escaped tiger from the Bronx Zoo might eat you. Or one of those legendary crocodiles in the New York sewers might just come up for a breath of fresh air and a pedestrian snack. I mean there are all kinds of hazards out there--best to stay home an do nothing.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

How much is a bespoke hazmat suit?

Hipsters are paying up to $300 for custom-made COVID-19 facial coverings, says a Brooklyn tailor

https://trends.gab.com/item/5ecb121cd4322adc31372718

whitney said...

I gave up flying a while back because of TSA and the crowds. The crowds are gone, TSA is still there, and now a whole bunch of other nonsense! I bet a lot of other people joining me and giving up flying.

Michael K said...

It's more complicated by evidence that many people have evidence of prior immunity from other corona related viruses,

Importantly, we detected SARS-CoV-2−reactive CD4+
T cells in ~40-60% of unexposed individuals, suggesting cross-reactive T cell recognition between circulating ‘common cold’
coronaviruses and SARS-CoV-2.

rhhardin said...

The problem seems to be with women. They can't think through even elementary science.

It's all stuff you can think through yourself, as to safety.

rhhardin said...

I suggest carrying a consipicouos spray bottle of Simple Solution, the pet accident carpet remedy.

RigelDog said...

I walk every day on forested paths and on broad half-deserted suburban streets. I have been flayed on NextDoor because, apparently, I am supposed to wear a mask while walking and hiking. In vain do I explain that the risk to passersby is basically zero, even if we are only, say, 4 feet apart on the narrowest trails for two seconds (I step off as far as possible and turn my back). I am told the risk is not zero. The fact that I cannot breathe well-enough through a mask while exercising is of no moment; I owe it to everyone else to not panic them.

Birkel said...

https://mikerowe.com/2020/03/walk-me-through-this-safety-third-thing/

Safety third.

narciso said...

they'll get something right eventually,

https://twitter.com/AlexBerenson/status/1265003464754696192

Sebastian said...

"These things are changing all the time and are quite subjective"

It's not that complicated. Things are always changing all the time and most things are quite subjective. That's why we used to have a free society with a free market: organizations had to adapt to change, everyone made choices based on their preferences. Even back in antiquity, for example, some people already argued against traveling, believe it or not. They didn't, others did, and no one suffered.

Government played some role, of course: traffic laws help to channel subjective choices, and so on.

But in these times, when most people run no extraordinary risks, and specific threats to specific groups are contained, and no public institutions are under threat, there is no further role for government to meddle, nor for portions of the public to impose their choices on everyone else.

Lucid-Ideas said...

Related but a side note, for those of you who have never worn a hazmat suit (generic term, there are all different kinds...I'll just use hazmat suit generally here).

Imagine the most uncomfortable garment you've ever worn, and times it by 3x. Prepare to have everything slow down. You will lose any dexterity in your fingertips and usually some kits (like in the military) have a special 'tweezers' attached to your belt to help you manipulate delicate things. You will also need to move and act like you're fat. Push your personal space out significantly. You're doing all of this to keep yourself from touching things that might tear your suit. Additionally, you will likely be carrying some environmental control gear on your back, and god help you if you're doing this in a radsafe or chemical environment as the gear gets heavier and ultra-specialized. Also, they're itchy, and you can't scratch. They're hell, and you can't wait to be out of them.

My point is this. NO ONE wears a hazmat suit willingly anywhere there isn't a significant threat unless they're being edgy. Even a TYVEK suit with respirator is a giant pain in the ass. No one logical or same would go through that except to get a reaction. It is overkill.

policraticus said...

The answer is: You were never as safe as you thought you were. Your sense of security was always an illusion. There were always threats to your health and your safety lurking just beyond your perception. It was blind chance that preserved you. And now, you could still die tomorrow. It is unknowable, but the end is certain.

Lurker21 said...

No. A simple gas mask should be enough.

GingerBeer said...

Everything is Calvinball with the Left.

David in Cal said...

I skipped the funeral of a dear cousin because I was afraid to Fly. I a hazmat suit had been available, I might have gone. In short, a hazmat suit can be the difference between flying and not flying.

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

Driving from south to northeast Texas today. Stopped for snax at the Buc-ees in Wharton. The place was as packed as I’ve ever seen it (and if you don’t know what a Texas Buc-ees is all about, picture a gas station the size of a suburban grocery store); there were easily 250 or 300 people in there. Cheek to jowl. Paying zero attention to the Xs and arrows on the floor. All stopping in on their way to somewhere else. Maybe 1 in 10 had masks.

It’s over y’all out here in flyover. Those who are worried about virus safety (“safety”) in their daily activities are dwindling dramatically. And I officially don’t care about the fears and feelings of strangers. People I care about and have a relationship with - sure. I will accommodate their preferences even if I privately think they are stupid. The rest? If you’re scared of my lack of mask and you want to cross the street when you see me coming down the sidewalk: feel free. Just don’t expect me to go out of my way for you. And you’re kind of an ahole go expect me to, actually, when the facts don’t call for it anymore. It’s not my fault and I’m not wrong if I want to live normally, and the facts support that, but some of you people refuse to update your outlook. It’s not reasonable to demand I take part in your delusion that you are in mortal danger from my normal living.

Where’s Ken B to own his obtuseness? We seem to be missing a few million bodies. I guess he can stop hassling me about volunteering for virus trials since they are not moving forward. They can’t find enough people with the virus to test it on. Nelson Muntz-style: HAHA!

Howard said...

Me and my best friend were 16 when we got certified Los Angeles county scuba divers by the time we were 17 we're pretty salty. We managed to get into a few pickles and u
got out of them using the buddy rescue system. Then we came up with the genius solution: do not dive with a buddy and therefore it would force you to be more cautious. I never got into any more pickles after that, ipso facto, there is a false sense of security associated with too much safety. that's one reason why four wheel drive vehicles get stuck so much more often than two wheel drive vehicles.

That's what I call double Dutch courage

bagoh20 said...

All we really want is a "sense" of security anyway. I've seen that throughout this thing. Facts that tell you that actually have nothing much to fear were widely overridden by theater that said doing this silly thing or that will actually make you safer, which in reality was almost impossible to accomplish in real terms.

stevew said...

It's not complicated. I think about my own safety and take whatever precautions I deem necessary to ensure and secure it. Your sense of safety and security are not my concern, so I give them all due consideration, which is to say, none.

Michael said...

Pathetic. To even engage with this nonsense is humiliating.

ga6 said...

New boarding signs, passports to the right, real IDs to the center, cowards to the left.

ga6 said...

Hazmat suits with air tanks to baggage compartment, but better wear long johns.

Lucien said...

It's not that complicated: in a free country all should be allowed to wear what they want.

Temujin said...

I have to ask this in all seriousness. What is actually going on at the New York Times and Washington Post these days? What is the standard for 'top flight' Journalists!? Who is doing the hiring and what is their standard for that hire? Who is directing the editors? To what purpose? We know about the 1619 project at NYT, but can is that the reason for so many narcissistic neurotics writing about how they get by day to day? Is this all the news that's fit to print?

I'm thinking that these may not be the best source for our news any longer. I dunno. Just thinking aloud.

gspencer said...

"and could cause undue concern for other travelers"

Tight Sneakers, pal. Having one of those suits, along the option of a filtered air pump, ensures proper temperatures and protection from the farts of those sitting next to you, along with their BO. These suits are the way to go.

Birkel said...

The false sense of security was built into the life of a certain (assumes) class of people.

Thomas Sowell called it The Vision of the Anointed.
I always though it should have been self-anointed.

Available through the Amazon portal.
JAC should not buy it.
He wouldn't grok it.

Achilles said...

The left just will not stop.

I have been right about everything that has happened. The "experts" pushing stupid garbage have been wrong about everything.

But you people continue to act like good little Brownshirts sucking up every lie and using it to destroy our economy and our society.

The stupid people that listen will have to go with the pieces of shit pushing this panic.

People humoring this garbage are a positive threat to freedom.

Lurker21 said...

If everyone wears a hazmat suit it will make it that much harder to identify the space aliens and that much easier for them to infiltrate.

On the other hand, yellow and orange are my best colors.

Achilles said...

These things are changing all the time and are quite subjective. To what extent do you feel safe, and when are you going to far doing things to make you feel safe or make others feel unsafe? Which precautions are enough? Notice that you're supposed to think about: 1. Your actual safety, 2. Your feelings about safety (which may or may not be grounded in actual safety), 3. Other people's actual safety, 4. How the things you do make other people feel about their safety. And while we're at it: 5. What other people might be thinking about your caring about their safety, and 6. Whether other people are judging you as overdoing it and being ridiculous.

It's quite complicated.


It is not complicated. You just pretend it is so you don't feel so stupid.

You have been tricked. Duped. Fooled into gullible submission.

Deal with it like an adult.

tcrosse said...

What are the TSA guys wearing these days?

I'm Full of Soup said...

After 911, I thought a good airplane security system would be to vacuum pack every passengers in that plastic stuff they use for stiuff you buy at Home Depot and hardware stores. You know the stuff that is almost impossible to open without a sharp knife or a hatchet. Of course, we'd have to punch a hole in it to let the passenger breath. But it would have ended hijacking. And we would not need the TSA.

James Pawlak said...

1. It is the "New York SLIMES" and "The WASHINGTON COMPOST".

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

considering commercial aircraft are petri dishes of human disease... I wanted to wear a hazmat suit BEFORE wuhan-covid.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

Give me the strongest placebo you got!!

isnt a false sense of security the perfect remedy to

... a false sense of danger?

Anne-I-Am said...

The desperate need of some progressives to have this outsized fear occupy their minds is instructive. Is it the same people who are rabidly anti-Trump? Is there a Venn diagram of partial overlap? I ask myself what wish is being fulfilled by a fear that increases as the objective threat diminishes.

Now I see a new kind of terror and shaming porn on my fb feed. EG: Someone young, who has the virus, posting a horror story about her symptoms--complete with pictures! She has an autoimmune disorder (of course), which she admits puts her at risk, but she nonetheless admonishes us to STAY HOME/WEAR MASKS/NEVER RETURN TO NORMAL because we are putting people like her in jeopardy. All of our actions must be determined by the risk to a very small percentage of the population--by the way, she is tired of isolation! So the rest of us must ISOLATE.

My progressive friends are the ones posting this nonsense. As the risk to healthy people is demonstrated to be very, very low, these people turn the dial up to 11 in order to shame and control others.

I imagine a brain, the cortex slowly being peeled back to reveal interior spaces that are inflamed or necrotic.

Interesting how the tranny delusion has been shelved for the time being; this one is much more consuming and on the surface, reality-based, so it is a better implement with which to conscript normies.

FullMoon said...

I see comments elsewhere from people waiting for vaccine before coming out of quarantine.

Will they continue to wait when normal people are set free? Doubtful. Gonna be some rationalization going on..

BTW, still waiting for vaccine for the other corona-the common cold.

narciso said...

that might very well be,


https://thefederalist.com/2020/05/19/relapses-are-through-the-roof-overdoses-are-through-the-roof-how-the-pandemic-is-upping-substance-abuse/

Anne-I-Am said...

I see a child's pull-toy train being constructed: climate-change : tranny delusion : hate speech control : germaphobia...

A deadly toy that will be used to "railroad" reality-based people into mute conformation to the diktats of the Left.

tim maguire said...

With masks, the concern was that wearing one may lead a person to be more careless in other ways such that, even though it is a safety device, it could lead people to be less safe in their total behavior. Somewhere along the way, "they" decided that the benefits of wearing a mask are sufficient to encourage wearing them despite this concern. Nevertheless, we should still strive not to fall into the trap of thinking the mask is doing more than it is.

I don't know what the hell this guy is talking about with the hazmat suits giving a false sense of security, but he's right to note that they're creepy.

Jess said...

I don't worry about my safety. I do worry about how bureaucrats are willing to control me under the guise of safety. If anyone is afraid, they can stay home, wither away, and the coroner can attribute their death to Covid 19.

BUMBLE BEE said...

N95 mask, nitrile gloves, bottle of hand sanitizer but no Glock? Not safe, as described so thoroughly by policraticus above!

Megaera said...

As Lucid-Ideas noted, whatever may loosely be called a hazmat suit, such garments as a class are 1) unbelievably hot - I'm trying to picture some panicky hipster wearing one in an airport, much less an actual plane, and promptly turning into his very own puddle of hazardous (and odorous) waste 2) astoundingly uncomfortable and 3) mind-bendingly inconvenient. Bathroom calls are a true nightmare, since you have to strip off the suit down to your knees to accomplish anything -- and then there's whatever you're wearing underneath to deal with as well, not to mention the problem of trying to keep the suit you just doffed from coming into contact with ANY OTHER SURFACE -- or there's absolutely no point in wearing the hazmat suit to begin with. These people, if they actually exist and aren't a mere figment of some writerly fever-dream, need to be in some state-supported daycare center for the demented.

Jaq said...

This is why it’s up to each of us to ensure our own safety to our own satisfaction. The whole “No man is an island” thing is so 20th century. I am having a hard time worrying about the economic well being of people who are not willing to make the tiniest compromises that have been shown to slow the spread of the virus.

FullMoon said...

Well, those thousands of dead Wisconsin voters and Navy aircraft carrier fatalities would still be alive if they wore full haz suits.

Live and learn folks. You can't be too careful.

Jaq said...

Even the cohort of people who pretend to care is heavily loaded with morons.

https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/john-tory-toronto-mask-coronavirus_ca_5ecb202fc5b6f6ac2c62b3a2

bagoh20 said...

Six of us (family and friends) rented a boat yesterday and spent the day out fishing and cruising around Lake Mead, NV. Perfect weather, about 87 deg. & sunny. Water was warm enough to swim in already. The harbor was packed. It was like the scene from "Jaws" on opening day of the summer. Parking lot full of trucks and boats, and coolers. Boats launching and jets skis running wild. All kinds of people in bathing suits with fishing gear, sun glasses, and hats of many types. Plenty of American flags. Politically it was exclusively Trump flags, stickers, etc. Do Dems even pursue happiness anymore? I don't know, but they weren't showing colors if they do. All the boats were rented, and the lake was alive with action. Out on some of the secluded beaches, only accessible by boat, there were villages of campers all along the shore swimming and having a great normal summer. It was actually glorious to behold. Merika!

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

Reduce your carbon footprint by reusing your hazmat suit.

bagoh20 said...

" I am having a hard time worrying about the economic well being of people who are not willing to make the tiniest compromises that have been shown to slow the spread of the virus."

Do you even realize how self-canceling that sentence is?

And where were your demands for sacrifice in previous years with similar rates of deaths. Were you less of a pussy then or less of a conformity pushing tyrant.

William said...

Can somebody here reassure me: I understand that airplanes use re-cycled air. The air you breathe is the air that someone has recently exhaled. The mask you wear may prevent you from exhaling some but not all droplets. The mask you wear doesn't do much to prevent you from inhaling such droplets. On a long flight if one passenger is infected, it seems to me that there's a good chance he'll infect some fellow passengers. Airplanes may be worse than subways or nursing homes. Maybe they should keep the windows open to allow for cross ventilation. That might compromise the aerodynamics but the occasional crash would be worth the trade off for the reduced coronavirus deaths.

Bay Area Guy said...

All Leftwing statist weenies who vote Dem (or throw threw their support to Pete Buttigieg) should wear full hazmat suits in public, with double condoms underneath.

Better safe than sorry!

narciso said...

If you're going to take precautions dp rhem properly exhibit a jackson lee, schumer and this tory fellow im guessing ndp

narciso said...

Ah anti ford pc close enough.

I'm Full of Soup said...

Bago: the world will be a much nicer, friendlier place if the never Trumpers and those suffering from Orange Man Bad Syndrome never leave their homes again.

bagoh20 said...

I did read a story recently that sited a study that found that airplane air is no more likely to infect than air in a resturant or other crowded venue. It said the air is filtered at the same particle size as in an ICU.

A plane or bus is the only place I would be concerned at all, becuase you can't create more space if you want to, like if the guy next to you is coughing, but that's true of any flu season, and I'd be about the same level of concerned.

Yancey Ward said...

If it takes that much thought, perhaps cowering in place is a better solution.

bagoh20 said...

I would prefer the guy sitting next to me not wear a mask. His breath would be leaking out the sides and therefor directed right at me with added velocity, and he would be touching it and then touching the armrests and sometimes they grab my irresistible knee.

Anne-I-Am said...

@William,

Airlines filter the air through HEPA filters, I believe. And no, airplanes are not worse than subways & nursing homes; no clusters of outbreaks seem to have been traced to air travel. Even that Chinese chick who infected the first German dude did not seem to infect all those with whom she flew.

Prior to this insanity, I flew on airplanes four times a week. To and from SoCal. And spent days at a time in LA--and the hospitals there. I am antibody-negative.

I suspect this thing is far less contagious that we have been told. The outbreaks have been nosocomial or intra-familial, for the most part.

As Mike has noted above--many of us probably have some cross-immunity from all the other corona viruses to which we have been exposed all of our lives.

Anne-I-Am said...

@bagoh20,

I too have irresistible knees!

Jim at said...

I bet a lot of other people joining me and giving up flying.

2012 was the last time I allowed myself to be shoved into a metal tube.

There's a good chance I'll never do it again because in CONUS? To paraphrase Stephen Wright: Everywhere is driving distance if you have the time.

Drago said...

Tim in Vermont: "I am having a hard time worrying about the economic well being of people who are not willing to make the tiniest compromises that have been shown to slow the spread of the virus."

Tim is upset that some people oppose forced global economic depression and loss of constitutional rights for a bad flu season.

One wonders what to say to such people.

Gk1 said...

Let the neurotic self identify. This is precisely why we had to put up with "comfort pigs" ostriches, spider monkey's you name it until the airlines finally put an end to it. We have been too permissive in catering to the crazies. This is yet another manifestation of that.

You want to take up 1-1/2 seats with your hazmat suit? Fine, buy two seats or better yet stay in the basement until mommy says its o.k to come out. The rest of us have a life to live. If you are that risk averse please stay home but don't expect the rest of us to.

Jim at said...

Even a TYVEK suit with respirator is a giant pain in the ass.

Yep. Did asbestos abatement back in the late '80s. Half-face respirators were bad enough. Supplied air was even worse. Being exposed to blown-in amosite was a real threat ... not like this insanity.

Bob Smith said...

About the only good thing to come out of the bat soup flu “crisis” is all the well place morons that are self identifying.

Limited blogger said...

Could accelerate the push for super sonic flight being widely available.

You would be required to wear a space suit

So there you go.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

forget the masks

... lockdowm-luvin' libs should wear colostomy bags over their mouths

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

@ Bagoh-

yeah - 'Merica!

Howard said...

Lucid is referring to a Level A suit. The most common non emergency yet nasty HazMat situation only requires Level C tyvec gloves full face respirator. The biggest energy penalty is the respirator. We wore skivvies under the level C tyvecs in summer in Florida and Arizona (but it's a dry heat). It's like any working man's coveralls except lighter and disposable. Drillers would sometime wear Level B suits as rain/mud gear even on clean dirt jobs..

If I had to fly today, I'd go level D with an N95 and nitrile gloves. If I had to fly in and out of NYC regularly, I'd wear a plain old tyvec suit. It's really not a big deal. Whatever you do depends on your best guess of viral load in the environment.

Masks are for the benefit of the strangers around, so screw them and their angst. Let your spittal fly because freedoom, fuck yeah. That'll show the libber pussies.



NMObjectivist said...

It's almost like Hollywood where nobody knows anything.

(Said about making another movie hit -- they don't know why the last movie was a hit. No one knows anything.)

Lucien said...

Full of Soup:
Al Qaeda ended hijacking for us. As of September 10, 2001 the worst thing that could happen in a hijacking attempt was for the plane to crash, killing all on board, because a small explosive device punched a hole in it at 40,000 feet, so doctrine was to let the hijackers into the cockpit, knowing the plane would have to land, where chances of losing everyone were minuscule.
After September 11, 2001 the worst thing that could happen had changed, and no one would ever open a cockpit door and surrender the plane again. All we had to do was install stronger cockpit doors, et voila.

Francisco D said...

Josephbleau said... Ridiculous is the word.

There is another aspect we should discuss at some point - the deaths not due to the Wuhan Flu, but the deceased was found to have COVID-19.

One of my neighbors has a 65 year old brother who was having an operation when the surgeon nicked his bowel. He wound up dying of a massive infection. After the autopsy, the hospital called her to change the death certificate because they found him to be infected with COVID.

This is really a scam!

Jeff said...

The first four sentences from the abstract of this paper are enlightening:

Upwards of 70 percent of the Covid19 death toll in Sweden has been people in elderly care services (as of mid-May 2020). We summarize the Covid19 tragedy in elderly care in Sweden, particularly in the City of Stockholm. We explain the institutional structure of elderly care administration and service provision. Those who died of Covid19 in Stockholm’s nursing homes had a life-remaining median somewhere in the range of 5 to 9 months.

It's not just Stockholm. Fairfax County in Northern Virginia last week reported that 75 percent of the Covid19 deaths in the county were of nursing home residents. You can bet that the life expectancies of the Covid victims absent the virus would have been similar to the 5 to 9 month median quoted for Stockholm.

We've been freaking out about a disease that is mostly dangerous to those who already have one foot in the grave. Not only that, but we're destroying our economy and ruining the lives of millions of young people in the vain hope that maybe a few old people will manage to hang on another six months or so. I say the hope is vain because there's actually no evidence that the lockdowns have actually reduced mortality. But they've been very effective at increasing unemployment, so there is that.

I ran across another very interesting paper on the medRxiv preprint server entitled Why are most COVID-19 infection curves linear? It shows how and why the standard SIR (Susceptible, Infected, Recovered) pandemic models are really bad at predicting and should be scrapped, because they don't take account of how contact networks are structured. Using realistic parameters, not even estimating them, the authors do a far better job of fitting the data both in and out of sample. The upshot is that the standard models grossly overpredict the number of cases and fatalities. If you are at all mathematically inclined, you should read it. It's a powerful indictment of the conventional wisdom that is actually pretty easy to follow.

Sebastian said...

"It's quite complicated"

Only if you think about everything pros tell you you're "supposed to think about."

Jim at said...

I am having a hard time worrying about the economic well being of people who are not willing to make the tiniest compromises that have been shown to slow the spread of the virus.

And I'm having hard time listening to sanctimonious scolds who insist everybody else cater to their demands, Tim.

Oso Negro said...

Blogger tim in vermont said...
This is why it’s up to each of us to ensure our own safety to our own satisfaction. The whole “No man is an island” thing is so 20th century. I am having a hard time worrying about the economic well being of people who are not willing to make the tiniest compromises that have been shown to slow the spread of the virus.


It all comes down to cannibalism in the end, Tim. I am guessing you will be a victim.

Birkel said...

bagoh20,
Can we hear more about that knee?
Pictures?

Guildofcannonballs said...

The problem seems to be with women. They can't think through even elementary science.

It's all stuff you can think through yourself, as to safety.

5/25/20, 4:01 PM

Science has determined almost all industrial accidents happen because people think to themselves "It's all stuff you can think through yourself, as to safety."

Your fun and games are over Harden: don't be leading little ones astray no more.

Oso Negro said...

And I will observe in passing, that if we had locked everyone down back in the 1980s when there was the concern that everyone was susceptible to HIV, and we didn't come out until there was a vaccine, we would STILL BE LOCKED DOWN. But we wouldn't be at all worried about coronavirus.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

we should have got rid of Cuomo, Whitler, and the other toxic Dem governors.

...if it saved just 1 nursing home patient, it would have been worth it

Rory said...

Allegheny County, Pa.: 150 deaths in a county of 1.2 million. Age range of 42-103, median age at death 85. A county report updated in late 2019 indicates that the median age of death from all causes in 2015-16 was 80.

John henry said...

People have been wearing masks on planes for as long as I can remember. Not a lot but 2-4 per flight.

Back then, SCIENCE!(tm) said it was to protect the wearer not others.

I never saw the need but understood the thinking and it certainly didn't bother me at all.

That SCIENCE!(tm) is no longer operative. Now it is to protect others. If a person is wearing a mask to protect me from something they might that scares me and I want them off the plane.

And what do they mean by a hazmat suit? I've seen newspaper articles of people in yellow paper lab coats saying they are "hazmat". They aren't.

I would have no problem with someone wearing heavy tyvek coveralls. Not really hazmat but not my problem.

Actual Hazmat suits are pretty bulky. If the airline made them buy an extra seat I'm fine wit that. I don't want them sitting next to me spilling into my space.

I'm not wearing one, though.

John Henry

John henry said...

OTOH, perhaps a Nylon coverall, commando underneath, as worn in aseptic clean rooms might be a comfortable way to fly.

John Henry

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Lucien said...

It's not that complicated: in a free country all should be allowed to wear what they want.

"should be allowed to" is all well and good, until I try to board a plane in my birthday suit and all hell breaks loose. Granted, there was some legitimate question as to whether such a large package would fit in the overhead bin or under the seat in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that was not the real issue...

Michael K said...

Upwards of 70 percent of the Covid19 death toll in Sweden has been people in elderly care services (as of mid-May 2020). We summarize the Covid19 tragedy in elderly care in Sweden, particularly in the City of Stockholm. We explain the institutional structure of elderly care administration and service provision. Those who died of Covid19 in Stockholm’s nursing homes had a life-remaining median somewhere in the range of 5 to 9 months.

It's not just Stockholm. Fairfax County in Northern Virginia last week reported that 75 percent of the Covid19 deaths in the county were of nursing home residents. You can bet that the life expectancies of the Covid victims absent the virus would have been similar to the 5 to 9 month median quoted for Stockholm.


This is an old story, best illustrated by the story of the drunk looking for his keys under the lamp post. The key would have been to lockdown the nursing homes. There was plenty of notice as the first reports came from that Kirkland WA nursing home.

Cuomo and the other D Governors have much to answer for.

Vonnegan said...

I thought I saw an article months ago (before everyone stopped flying) that said flight attendants and pilots had a lower infection rate than the general public. Now I can't find it. Did anyone else see the same thing or did I imagine it?

Pants, we had the same thing happen a week ago Friday, at the Bucee's in Waller. My son and I went up and back to Waco to get his things, and we made out usual stop (okay, 2 stops, coming and going). We walked in the first time wearing cotton masks, like dutiful, good urban folk, and when we got to the center of the store, the smell of cinnamon rolls knocked us back on our heels. I took off my mask and told my son "if we can smell that so strongly, I have a feeling these aren't helping". I didn't really wear the mask moving his stuff out of the dorm, either; it was far too hot in the un-airconditioned stairwell, and there were only a few people in the building. But Bucee's was packed - maybe 25% wearing masks, the drink dispensers were open, and everything looked so normal. It was amazing.

Joan said...

A hazmat suit has all the inconvenience of a jumpsuit and none of the style. Me, I'm struggling with staying masked for the 45 minutes I'm required when attending Mass in my parish. By the time we can unmask to receive communion, the mask is thoroughly gross. I'm having a bad reaction in my eyes after being masked, because so much of my breathing is being directed up, and if I'm wearing glasses it's so much worse. I can't imagine staying suited and masked for hours on a plane.

We have immune systems, people. Trying to "protect" yourself from exposure to anything is just screwing you over in the long run. My teacher friends and I all agree that the start of the school year is going to see everyone coming down with colds, etc, what I call "New School Syndrome" all over again, because we've lost whatever immunity to the local crud we might have built up through this shelter-in-place nonsense.

Rory said...

Classic classic TV: Gomer Pyle has "Come Blow Your Too," where Sgt. Carter bets he can go 24 hours without losing his temper.

John henry said...

There's an old joke about how we all put our pants on one leg at a time.

An exception is forewarning for an aseptic clean room. There, you have to put your coveralls, Nylon or heavy tyvek, on both legs at once. No part of the coverall can touch the floor which is perfectly clean and sterile.

There's a technique which is not difficult. Unless you get old and your body no longer bends those ways.

Fortunately I've accepted that there is no shame is asking the youngsters for help.

John Henry

John henry said...

 Francisco D said...

Josephbleau said..

the hospital called her to change the death certificate because they found him to be infected with COVID. 

This is really a scam!

The hospital gets an extra $13-40m if they can call it a ChiVi death.


Colorado reduced their dead count by about 25% last week. Yeah, they had that many deaths wrongly attributed.

John Henry

stevew said...

Shutting down the economy and putting 30m people out of work is not "the tiniest compromises".

Openidname said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Marshall Rose said...

To what extent do you feel safe, and when are you going too far doing things to make you feel safe or that make others feel unsafe? Which precautions are enough?

I feel just as safe as before. I practice normal hygene, as before. I wash my hands when needed and don't lick doorknobs.

It is impossible for me to know everything that makes another person feel unsafe. I cannot and will not be held responsible for the irrational fears of others. There is no end of behavior modifications that will be demanded of you once you surrender your free will to assuage their fears.

For petty tyrants demanding I become subservient to so they can feel less scared about life, well...

GFY

gilbar said...

serious question
in this brave new world, where no one shakes hands, and no one blows out birthday candles...
Will people still bareback* ?
hint the answer is YES
for those of you, that think the answer is NO; you don't know many people, do you?

backback* not wearing a condom, because "it's not natural feeling"

bagoh20 said...

"bagoh20,
Can we hear more about that knee?
Pictures?


I sold the rights to a porn site. No freebees.

wildswan said...

A false sense of insecurity - when a little kid blows out birthday candles.

I wonder if falling for the climate hoax and then TDS are co-morbidities which lead to a belief that a deadly pandemic exists in the US today? A terrible disease by little kids and their birthday parties and by barbecue sauce, martinis or anything else you want to mention except Governor Cuomo and Governor Whitmer.

n.n said...

Planned Pathogen (PP) to abort viruses and progress their viability.

Art in LA said...

There's a term for this, risk compensation. One example, you drive more recklessly because you have airbags and anti-lock brakes installed on your car.

OnlyInCA said...

Flew from SFO to Florida for 10 days to get a break from thenever ending Bay Area lockdown. United requires everyone on the plane to wear a mask throughout the flight. Saw a few West Coasters with the full “Clean room” gear on: mask, face shield, gloves, suit. I wouldn’t fly if I was that worried!

LA_Bob said...

"In an effort not to freak us out, Bill, Hillary, Cuomo and 30-40 others celebrate memorial day.

No masks

No distancing at all social or otherwise.

F*** all of you."


Yep. None of these know-it-alls believes any of the propraganda they propagate.

Not Cuomo, A.

Not Cuome, C.

Not Pelosi.

Not Stephanopolous.

Not Ferguson.

Probably not even Wretched Witless or Gavin Gruesome.

But they "kept us safe", you know.

Jupiter said...

"In an effort not to freak us out, Bill, Hillary, Cuomo and 30-40 others celebrate memorial day."

Not to worry. They all got the antidote before they released the contagion.

mikee said...

The sole legitimate reason to lockdown was to avoid overwhelming our health care facilities. That has been done. Everything else is the vilest of politics masquerading as science.