"... of a potentially greater depression than in the 1930s, with no assurance of any progress yet visible. If we keep this up for six months, we could well keep the deaths relatively low and stable, but the economy would all but disintegrate. Just because Trump has argued that the cure could be worse than the disease doesn’t mean it isn’t potentially true. The previously unimaginable levels of unemployment and the massive debt-fueled outlays to lessen the blow simply cannot continue indefinitely. We have already, in just two months, wiped out all the job gains since the Great Recession. In six months? The wreckage boggles the mind. All of this is why, [on] some days, I can barely get out of bed. It is why protests against our total shutdown, while puny now, will doubtless grow. The psychological damage — not counting the physical toll — caused by this deeply unnatural way of life is going to intensify.... Damon Linker put it beautifully this week: 'A life without forward momentum is to a considerable extent a life without purpose — or at least the kind of purpose that lifts our spirits and enlivens our steps as we traverse time. Without the momentum and purpose, we flounder. A present without a future is a life that feels less worth living, because it’s a life haunted by a shadow of futility.'... We keep postponing herd immunity, if such a thing is even possible with this virus. A massive testing, tracing, and quarantining regime seems beyond the capacity of our federal government in the foreseeable future... [S]ometimes the only way past something is through it."
Writes Andrew Sullivan in
"We Can’t Go on Like This Much Longer" (New York Magazine).
ADDED: Damon Linker may "put it beautifully," but to write "Without the momentum and purpose, we flounder" is to be on the wrong side of
the flounder/founder distinction.
"Flounder" is a fish, and the verb means to struggle, and that takes some "momentum and purpose." To "founder" is to collapse, to fall helplessly to the ground... without momentum.
Posts
428 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 428 Newer› Newest»Wednesday, Denver Post reported that the total Wuhan Flu deaths here in Colorado was 552, 64% of which were in nursing homes or other longterm care institutions. That's 353. Saturday, Colorado experts announced that only 40% of Colorado WuFlu deaths were from nursing homes and longterm care facilities. So, either the experts discovered 330 new WuFlu deaths not one of which were from nursing homes, or 132 nursing home patients that were written off as dead were literally brought back from death, presumably from either Trump's or Chris Cuomo's wife's miracle cures.
But in the meantime, Denver and every other Democrat controlled Front Range county has extended the shutdown to May 8. Because...the numbers!
He was trached, my brother.
Too little for a ventilator then, I suppose.
We had John Wayne's grandson on a vent at Childrens for 18 months when he presented in heart failure as a newborn about 1969. He completely recovered and we fixed his VSD at age 5. Nobody thought he would survive but he is an executive in the movie business now. He had an IV in his left femoral vein for over a year, and ended up with a contraction of that left hip. We fixed it later after we fixed his heart.
I got chicken pox at the age of 28 from my two children. I was looking and smelling like a zombie skin eruptions over 100% of my body, festering, very high fever, lost 20-lbs in 2 weeks. I still have a couple of pockmarks on my face from that ordeal. I had hepatitis A at the age of 20 from some sideways Mexican seafood. That was nasty too, it only lasted a week. Chickenpox was way worse.
It's a matter of timing. If you flounder for a while you may well find yourself foundering. Unless you are actually a flounder, in which case you're already at the bottom of the ocean.
I hesitate to disagree with a Woman of Letters on a definitional or usage question, but flounder fits moderately well in the quoted sentence.
Flatfish!
The distinctive action by the flounder at the end of this short clip is the source of the usage.
"just another partisan issue for people to scream at each other about"
As I said to the spouse this morning, it's like we're all invited to a gang fight on the Titanic.
Considering the World Health Organization's miserable performance re the Wuhan Flu, I have to take WHO predictions with a grain of salt (or maybe an aspirin and I'll feel better in the morning). But they have predicted that the economic damage and destruction caused by these wide spread shutdowns will cause the death of millions of children. Well yes--poverty and malnourishment will do that. So maybe we should open up the USA "for the children" and "if it will save one life". We can save millions!
Like anything else that's new and complicated, it appears that there's a lot that the medical and public policy community doesn't know about it. Unless the death numbers spike up dramatically in the next month or so, it appears to cause about as many fatalities in the US as a bad flu season. So we have a flu season times two--but we don't shut the economy down for a flu season.
There's no vaccine--yet.
There appear to have been a lot more asymptomatic cases than expected--the blood tests in Santa Clara county for example showing very significant percentage of the population had the corona virus--but didn't know it. Those cases certainly reduce the "lethality" numbers for the corona virus.
We don't know if the antibodies produced by an asymptomatic case will provide immunity if the corona virus comes back. Or if they do provide immunity, how long that immunity will last.
We don't know if the corona virus will come back this fall---or ever. Some of these Asian respiratory viruses pass through the community once and then disappear or reappear only years later.
What we do know is that this shutdown has caused vast economic damage to the country--and allowed a number of governors, mayors, policy experts and useful idiots (but then I repeat myself) to reveal their secret inner fascist grasping for power and control. Gretchen Whitmer I'm looking at you--among others. But there are a lot of them including the mayor of Los Angeles, and the mayor of my Los Angeles suburb.
"And on a newly created bug never seen before, you get that how"
Skepticism should have been piqued no later than when numbers started coming from the Diamond Princess. Anyone who is even generally conversant with numbers should have been wondering how potent the virus really is.
have we reached the point on the graph where the 'mitigation'
is, or threatens to, take a greater toll than the virus itself?
Do we need to establish a threshold for drastic measures?
Have we already established, with other viruses/outbreaks in the past,
what that threshold is?
Is a Covid death worse than the eventual deaths by suicide/starvation/etc?
Do we find these types of death more palatable based on reason, or emotion?
America has been doomed since before its inception. Some years there are multiple things predicted to precipitate doom, other years it is just one thing. Covid is the latest doom bringer. Odds are that doom will come tomorrow, as it always has, not today.
I had chickenpox as a child, that I caught from my sister. The mothers in our neighborhood had a chickenpox party at our house.
My son had the chickenpox when he was eight. Our family doctor didn’t want him to have the chickenpox vaccine because it was so new. She wanted to wait and see if he caught it (which he did) or titer him at age ten to see if he had had an undiagnosed case. If he hadn’t had chickenpox by age ten, she’d give him the vaccine prior to puberty.
My husband was on travel when my/our son was sick but my father-in-law was living with us. So I quarantined with my son for a week. He recovered just fine...and then I came down with the chickenpox. Yes you can get it twice.
I was forty. That is the sickest I’ve ever been in my life. I thought I was going to die and I made peace with that.
great video of the current ideas on the plague. reminds me of reading the comments on this blog and others. Enough of this, end the shut down.
https://youtu.be/wVs5AyjzwRM
Sheesh, Andrew is making sense again. Did they change his medication?
blind squirrel, you can see with the thread I linked it's about 1 in 6 columns,
Birkel & Sebastian,
Talking to my BIL today (pulmonologist/critical care doc)...he put it more eloquently than I could:
"We are picking winners and losers." And he meant in terms of life and death, NOT only economically. "We are telling someone who has been having abdominal pain that her colonoscopy is 'elective,' so we can't rule out colon cancer. We are telling her that her life is less important than the life of someone with CoVid." She is a loser--the CV patient is a winner.
He had more to add, which I know will make some head explode her; it is what I was getting at, not very well, last night:
"And it is worse than just winners and losers. The 'winners' we are picking are the elderly. And not the healthy, strong elderly living on their own, taking care of themselves. The elderly with comorbidities who already require assistance. We are choosing people with limited ability to take care of themselves or anyone else to be winners, and we are making losers those who are vital and independent."
I won't listen to any deniers on here tell me I am fantasizing. This is a physician nationally known for his work in pulmonology telling me that he is seeing vital, independent people of all ages go without necessary care such as knee replacements, hip replacements, colonoscopies, bronchoscopies, hernia repair, etc, while the system focuses fall of its energy and protective might on (far fewer) the physically debilitated and dependent, whose lives were going to be measured in months or years anyway, rather than the decades left to the former.
"This is monstrous." Again, his words.
"You fucked up. You trusted us." Heh.
I think the more appropriate Animal House line is also by Otter: "I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture."
Inga doubles down on her callous and abject disregard for the hundreds of millions globally shoved into desperate poverty by her policy preferences (which coincide with her desperate political desires) with the estimated hundreds of thousands of child deaths.
And to make it worse, our russia collusion truther uses the tragic passing of her son as rhetorical and political cover for her now clearly indefensible position.
I'm late to this thread, but I was way ahead of Andrew on this topic. I saw this coming in March including that it would be argued as some sort of political side rather than common sense. Sadly, I think the people, that believe money is just something printed by the federal reserve and its value is whatever they want to make it, have so far won the argument. However, the pushback will get worse, especially as local tyrants try to intervene and stop it. I think the smart politicians will simply say "we recommend staying home when you can and using a mask when you can't", then stepping out of the way.
A warning those who think once things reopen, we will be past the partisanship. The next stage will be lawsuits against businesses that reopened as class action lawyers will claim their reopening spread the virus. You can bet that at some point, the grocery chains will be hit hard, despite the fact that had they not been open at all; we would have all been in trouble.
the comparable strategy would be to bomb mexico city, as futile to the goal
It is hard to believe as we sit here today that sometime before November the pointy heads, the Dems, and the MSM will be telling us that Trump overreacted, that he should have ordered the country back to work and told the governors their lockdown orders were invalid, and used extraordinary national emergency powers under the living constitution to do so. They will tell us that his failure to do so cratered the economy.
They will do this while simultaneously supporting and promoting the impeachment of Trump for failing to shut down the country soon enough.
Count. On. It.
Althouse said:
"Unfortunately, Sullivan did catch the virus before finding the way to protect himself..."
I was wondering if this was correct. He was diagnosed in 1993, well into the epidemic.
He claims he does not know the source of his infection as he was highly promiscuous at the time (and later as RawMuscleGlutes, advertising for partners - infected or not).
He was an exceptionally horny fellow by any measure.
@stevew:
America has been doomed since before its inception. Some years there are multiple things predicted to precipitate doom, other years it is just one thing. Covid is the latest doom bringer. Odds are that doom will come tomorrow, as it always has, not today.
It is certainly not a "doom bringer." It merely illustrates what a debased, decadent society we have become.
In the shell game of the media you have to carefully keep your eye on the pea. Perhaps Andrew is in the vanguard in beginning to reframe public opinion from “Trump killed everyone by not doing enough” to “Trump unnecessarily destroyed our economy”. A new day dawns for the DNC, uninformed by what happened yesterday.
I knew an actuary from a major life insurance company in the 1980s at the beginning of the AIDS crisis when it was believed the disease could be transmitted between heterosexuals. He was ashen with fear that half the population could be wiped out in short order. He had models. They were grim indeed.
Anne: ""This is monstrous." Again, his words."
Indeed. Not only did the shutdowns not help health, they did harm. They did the opposite of what they claimed to seek--they hurt people, they hurt health care, and of course they hurt the economy and the country. From the point of view of history, we will look back on a monstrous two months. The question will be, how could they?
Your BIL may like the CA physicians linked at Power Line.
Sebastian,
Careful--per one of AA's more intelligent commenters, I am a right-wing troll that he and his minions haven't yet managed to drive off. /sarc
Personally, I've never had such a great relationship with my immediate family, and my preparations with dry food are being completely vindicated. There's some joy in that for me.
************
The coming recession will be the *second one* I've been through (as a working adult) and the *second time* my "hoard extra cash in good times for the bad times" philosophy has been vindicated. So I get it. At what point did we decide nothing bad should ever happen to us?
This just in from WI DHS:
physical distancing guide
Seven weeks under house arrest and into the total suspension of my civil liberties.
It’s for my own good, say the authorities.
Also worth factoring in with the Panic Crowd is the Cry Wolf syndrome: the next time there is a potentially catastrophic situation predicted people will be less likely to treat it with the same compliance they have done with this event.
Exacerbating this is that none of the Panic Crowd will ever admit to being wrong: it was the models, etc etc.
Perhaps some mea culpas and thoughts on how to better apprise a future scenario could be discussed in context of lessons learned, but I don't expect such to occur...
As the horror movies say: the call is coming from inside the house...
I am Laslo.
From the point of view of history, we will look back on a monstrous two months.
Perhaps. Or perhaps not. Time makes fools of us all.
"Time makes fools of us all."
It does much worse than that.
I don’t get it, J.Farmer.
There are no conditions that justify placing the citizenry under house arrest and suspending civil liberties.
Where did you ever get the idea otherwise?
You’re a very very confused man.
Stop being reasonable and start getting infuriated.
As the horror movies say: the call is coming from inside the house...
Also:
"Keep watching the skies...."
We need to put these guys in charge of the rollout. You whiny ass bitches need to do PT with a mask on. It takes extra effort to suck wind so it's a good idea that practice before you re-engage to avoid passing out.
How Marines combat Covid-19
Whiny ass bitches is an odd name for people insisting on their freedom and constitutional rights, Howard.
Then, again you’re not an advocate of constitutional democracy.
You’re cynical endorsement of tyranny is expected.
I can’t tell you how annoying it is to me that someone like Andrew Sullivan suddenly discovers the truth that’s been sitting on the front porch like a 800-pound gorilla all along and then he somehow thinks that’s revelatory. Like Ricky Gervais: Is there anything about hypocritical celebrities he’s now pointing at that wasn’t blatantly obvious to the rest of us forever?
And also, Sullivan somehow dismissing Trump in his non-epiphany epiphany. Sickens me.
Fuck you and your Marines up the ass, Howard.
Your job is to be an obedient servant of civilian authority.
J Farmer,
Perhaps or perhaps not in economic terms. Although I am not sure what you would say to someone who has already lost his/her business.
In medical terms? It is already monstrous. Lives already lost?
We have been sacrificing, and continue now to do so, relatively healthy lives for objectively unhealthy lives. Which is not to say that the very unhealthy don't deserve treatment when they fall ill. It is to say that they should not be chosen proactively to be protected and treated ahead of those far healthier and with far more healthy life ahead of them.
This means the obese/diabetic/hypertensive/very old person with CoVID in need of a vent gets it, no matter his health status. It doesn't mean that we shut down access to necessary health services for the healthy younger (or elderly) person in order to try to forestall the death of the former.
In a system with limited resources, inhumane as it sounds, we weigh competing interests all the time. And the idea that the already very ill person deserves our protection at the cost of the life/health of the healthy person is grotesque.
Fuck all of you and your reasonableness.
We’re under the thumb of tyrannical government engaging in illegal and unconstitutional suppression of the citizenry.
Get pissed.
"Sullivan did catch the virus before finding the way to protect himself"
He needed to erect a barrier.
Howard, yes those Marines ( and the Corpsmen with them) are tough, no whining allowed!
Inga: "Howard, yes those Marines ( and the Corpsmen with them) are tough, no whining allowed!"
LOL
There is plenty of whining amongst the Green Team.
Plenty.
Jesus, Inga, you’re put down the bottle for a while and you’re back to suck Chinese communist dick?
It’s turns out over the long haul that you’re not just a drunken bitch and pathological liar.
You’re a traitor, too.
New Chinese Communist Party line from Howard and Inga;
Insisting on your freedom and your constitutional rights just makes you a whiny brat.
Shut up and obey!
What would a Sunday afternoon be without a ST rant?
Who deserves it more than you, Inga?
You’re utterly insane and evil.
Farmer: I have a much more positive opinion about my fellow citizens and American society. For sure, commenters here are a quite polarized bunch with two major divisions and several entrenched factions. As for debased and decadent, do you mean society in general, people in particular, America as a player in the wider world, all of those? I'm curious what you mean because I don't see debased and decadent.
LOL
Inga: "What would a Sunday afternoon be without a ST rant?"
What would a Sunday afternoon be without Inga pushing another debunked lefty lie?
In this case, Inga has revisited her --they denied the virus exists-- lie just today.
Very disappointing Inga hasnt moved on to the more recent lefty lies like ARM.
“What would a Sunday afternoon be without Inga pushing another debunked kefty lie?”
What’s a kefty lie?
Inga: "What’s a kefty lie?"
I dont know. Why do you ask?
Oh boy you nailed her now Drago, well played
"kefty" : Kafka + lefty.
That's what I'd go with.
I am Laslo.
Kefir drinking lefty
Howard: "Oh boy you nailed her now Drago, well played"
She asked a question.
I answered her question.
Why does that upset you?
Note to self: Howard does not appreciate posters responding to Inga's questions.
The reason remains.....unclear.
Kefir drinking lefty.
Kefir drinking Kafkaesque lefty.
A rye old fashioned (rye, angostura bitters, orange bitters, luxardo cherries and a tsp of the liquor, a splash of water, ice) turns my l's into k's.
On the plus side, we're getting to test drive the New Green Deal AND experience how decisions are made when the government decides what to do when in charge of health care.
When the government bends you over it is NOT to check your prostate.
I am Laslo.
Yes Laslo, indeed it is so. But they do say, "now just relax".
Drago, when did you turn into a humorless tool? you quite obviously deleted the post where you had the typographical error Inga was quick to jump on but you corrected the record and then did the "who what me" excuse. I thought that was funny.
@Shouting Thomas:
There are no conditions that justify placing the citizenry under house arrest and suspending civil liberties.
Setting aside the specifics of this case, the ability of the state to restrict citizens during a public health crisis is well established. You already live in a country where the state can conscript citizens.
More good news from Reuters:
Next wave of U.S. states prepare to reopen as coronavirus could push jobless rate to 16%
No, the 16% unemployment rate is not the good news - that's the bad news.The good news is that the more states reopen the better. The sooner the better. Even small steps:
Colorado, Democratic Governor Jared Polis has given the green light for retail curbside pickup to begin on Monday. Hair salons, barbershop and tattoo parlors can open on Friday, with retail stores, restaurants and movie theaters to follow.
stevew,
I see debased and decadent--in a certain portion of society. I see it in those who insist that a human life must be sacrificed for a woman's convenience. I see it in people who insist that sexual libertinism is essential to a healthy life. I see it in people who insist that individual feeling trumps common sense, science, and virtue.
I do not see it in the average man or woman working, raising kids, serving the community--and wondering why the world is getting turned upside down based on the entitled whinging of a tiny percentage of the populace.
“When the government bends you over it is NOT to check your prostate.”
Or maybe they just want to check out your kolon.
Farmer
Shouting Thomas is another of those Americans who really has no clue about the constitution he lives under. We have seen many such here. Speaking as a Canadian: snicker.
@Anne:
In a system with limited resources, inhumane as it sounds, we weigh competing interests all the time. And the idea that the already very ill person deserves our protection at the cost of the life/health of the healthy person is grotesque.
I do not disagree with that, and I am not sure where I said anything to the contrary. Reconciling finite resources with unlimited demands is a basic problem of human society.
Laslo: "When the government bends you over it is NOT to check your prostate.
I am Laslo."
Ive told this before, but its worth telling again.
When getting an annual physical aboard the carrier, one particular Flight Surgeon with a mischievous nature would have a second flight surgeon hide behind a curtain.
Then, when giving a flier the rectal check the first flight surgeon would place his hand on your back while the second flight surgeon would sneak up and put one of his hands on the other side of the rectal-ee.
That would usually generate a "spirited" response.
Okay I withdraw the statement humorless tool that was f****** funny
Anne-I-Am: that is a helpful explanation. I am fortunate in that pretty much all the people I know and interact with on a regular basis are this average man or woman you mention. Perhaps that creates a bias in my where I assume a majority of my fellow Americans are the same way.
J Farmer,
You didn't say that--I was replying to your statement that whether the situation has been monstrous remains to be seen. I think (?) you were speaking primarily economically. I was referring to other costs of the path we have chosen.
Drago, just needs to bend over and relax and his sense of humor squeaks out.
In a thread where Inga has used the death of her son as an attack on those who disagree with her strong desire to impoverish millions simply to satisfy her need to virtue signal, Inga decides a typo is now the pathway to an "Internets" "win", what with the Komplete Kollapse Of her Russian Kollusion Konspiracy
Its fascinating as a psykhologikal study.
Inga: "Drago, just needs to bend over and relax and his sense of humor squeaks out."
Filed under: Things to write when 4 straight years of dem talking points and lies have been obliterated
“In a thread where Inga has used the death of her son as an attack on those who disagree with her strong desire to impoverish millions simply to satisfy her need to virtue signal, Inga decides a typo is now the pathway to an "Internets" "win", what with the Komplete Kollapse Of her Russian Kollusion Konspiracy”
Drago, you really have this insatiable appetite for arguing. My comment relating to the nature of people as something I learned after my son died has absolutely nothing to do with people on the left or people on the right or any of your pet political grievances.
"none of the Panic Crowd will ever admit to being wrong: it was the models, etc etc."
Nope. "It was the compliance!"
DUH!
Inga: "Drago, you really have this insatiable appetite for arguing."
Your continuous lying and conspiracy mongering, along with using your deceased son as a weapon to attack others (which you did in this very thread) deserve to be called out every single time.
Every. Single. Time.
Quick Inga Sanity Check question: Inga, yes or no: did Trump collude with Russia?
Dont worry. We know you dare not answer.
Speaking of compliance, I want to point folks having difficulty with the concept of 6ft to that handy guide at DHS link above.
Alarmism taking a hit in Israel as well:
“What we know so far is that the average age of death is 82, and most of those people have had other serious health conditions. So it’s more an important test for the healthcare system and for the political class than a demographically significant event in the population. That will be the case even if, God forbid, deaths head into the thousands,” Weinreb said."
Refutation upon refutation: in retrospect, no diagnosis of a policy problem will appear as flawed as the alarmist case made at the outset of the current crisis. Worst diagnosis, worst prescription, worst outcomes. Nothing compares.
@stevew:
Farmer: I have a much more positive opinion about my fellow citizens and American society. For sure, commenters here are a quite polarized bunch with two major divisions and several entrenched factions. As for debased and decadent, do you mean society in general, people in particular, America as a player in the wider world, all of those? I'm curious what you mean because I don't see debased and decadent.
A society without a shared identity cannot be held together by avarice. Family, industriousness, public virtue. What does our nation have to say about such quaint notions.
Drago, I spoke of my personal experience in learning about the way people can surprise you by the way they act in tough times. It had nothing to do with you or with any political ideology. It has to do with human nature.
Why am I having to explain this to an adult who seems to have normal intelligence?
“ Why am I having to explain this to an adult who seems to have normal intelligence?”
Assumes facts — two of them — not in evidence.
Kai Akker,
Of course I have been and remain correct.
Your fear did not create new rules.
It just gave politicians the chance to make things worse.
Ask yourself: Did you do things to reduce your own risk? Did others around you?
So why allow politicians to exercise powers that do not make things better?
I'm with Steve, J Farmer.
The media and blogs etc show the worst of us because clickbait ratings remuneration. I'm very bullish on this country and its people. We will get through this. In 10 years things will be great and people will look back on pandemic with nostalgia just like our parents used to brag about how tough the depression was. Party like it's 2029
“Why am I having to explain this to an adult who seems to have normal intelligence?”
“Assumes facts — two of them — not in evidence.”
I think what the problem is that he is emotionally stunted and to compensate for that, everything and anything that is said in a general discussion by someone he has deemed his political enemy, is run through some odd political machinery in his brain. It’s odd.
“ Family, industriousness, public virtue. What does our nation have to say about such quaint notions.”
This is one of the areas where we agree Farmer. Those notions have been under assault for a long time, and are waning. I wonder if they are being rediscovered though. I have seen more of it on display here than is customary. But then that’s almost a stereotype of small town Ontario (so mocked by sophisticated Torontonians.) it might not be the same in Baltimore or California.
Blogger stevew said...
Yes Laslo, indeed it is so. But they do say, "now just relax".
Actually, they say, "We're all in this together." Talk about a bold-faced lie.
And yes, I am pissed.
Inga: "Drago, I spoke of my personal experience in learning about the way people can surprise you by the way they act in tough times."
You used the death of your son to attack others.
I dont blame you for running away from such a disturbed tactic. I have to say given your serial and contradictory lies over the years it didnt surprise me in the least.
@Anne:
You didn't say that--I was replying to your statement that whether the situation has been monstrous remains to be seen. I think (?) you were speaking primarily economically. I was referring to other costs of the path we have chosen.
I was just express agnosticism to the question. It is difficult to judge a situation while in the middle of it. While more recent data is more encouraging than older data, we still can't say with a great deal of confidence one way or the other what is likely to transpire.
That said, I also don't think we should engage in economic catastrophizing. Disruptions to our society are certainly a concern, and we should be vigilante about smoothing the shock waves. This will require lots of monetary and fiscal intervention by the state, though we will inevitably hear tired, dumb protestations about "government isn't the answer."
Ken B: "Assumes facts — two of them — not in evidence."
Liberals are now calling for opening up the economy. Are they racist murderers?
Liberals now recognize the economy has been shoved into a depression that is worse than the ChiCom Wuhan Lab Bat Flu. Are you still standing by your claim the US avoided economic collapse?
Dont worry. We all know that like your ally Inga you dare not answer such questions.
I also have to say given Inga's serial and contradictory lies over the years it didn't surprise me in the least Ken B has found such a kindred spirit in her.
“You used the death of your son to attack others.”
Drago, you have a long and sordid reputation here of mischaracterizing or outright lying about those you see as your political enemies. It’s odd and it should be something you might try to recognize and address as one of your serious failings. As I said, not everything in life is about politics.
“This Covid social distancing thing mirrors what I’ve learned about people after my son died. Some of people I expected to behave in a caring yet level headed way were the biggest disappointments and some of the people who I had the least amount of expectations for were the ones who came though with flying colors.”
This is what is I said.
Inga: "Drago, you have a long and sordid reputation here of mischarterizing or outright lying about those you see as your political enemies"
Trump/Russia collusion
Trump is a russian asset
Hoax dossier
Carter Page is a russian spy
Kavanaugh is a rapist
Allusions to DJT/Ivanka sexual relations
Trump was involved withRussian money laundering
Gen Flynn committed a crime
Emoluments violations
Hoax ukraine phone call
Trump is responsible for the Wuhan virus
Trump is lying about treatments in development
Should I go on Inga?
Because I could...for hours.
Why have you pushed that many lies about your political enemies?
@Howard:
The media and blogs etc show the worst of us because clickbait ratings remuneration. I'm very bullish on this country and its people. We will get through this. In 10 years things will be great and people will look back on pandemic with nostalgia just like our parents used to brag about how tough the depression was.
My assessment has nothing to do with the media or blogs. And the problem is not the pandemic but what it reveals about a fractured, atomized society.
"In 10 years things will be great and people will look back on pandemic with nostalgia just like our parents used to brag about how tough the depression was."
I love the thought, Howard.
Unfortunately, I already know of two economically-related suicides from this mess (friends of friends, not immediate family or circle).
One had problems with depression; the other, multiple stressors with impending bad finances.
In other words, they had psychological comorbidities.
But, a tipping point: one lost his job and the other gave up on his business, and -- in this Doomsday Everyday Climate -- I feel sorrow for their families as much as any victim of the virus.
For the Hale-Boppers it's always the next comet.
I am Laslo.
What I especially love is those barb's that Drago is aiming right at Ingas heart to try to cause her deep personal pain are being completely neutered.
Drago's motto: If you want to be impotent, you have to sound impotent.
“And the problem is not the pandemic but what it reveals about a fractured, atomized society.”
My comment that Drago is obsessed over in which I mention my son’s death, deals with the same issue in a way. How people react in tough times, how they rise or fall, how they show their humanity or lack thereof. And how they can surprise or disappoint based on how well you thought you knew them.
"Family, industriousness, public virtue. What does our nation have to say about such quaint notions."
A bit pedantic, but a "nation" has nothing to say about such things, though I'm pretty sure you are referring to its people.
My sample, the people I know, work with, friends, family, value those things and practice them, however imperfectly, in their lives. Don't most in America? Don't you practice these things? Is that not the basis of your concern? I think your pessimism is unwarranted. As you've said, time will prove one of us right, and the other the fool. Maybe both.
Fractured and atomized are mutually exclusive
Inga: "How people react in tough times, how they rise or fall, how they show their humanity or lack thereof."
One solid rule of Inga Humanitarianism is to accuse those concerned with economic depression of being racist murderers.
Really, Inga is the absolute worst individual to self-select themselves to lecture others, particularly with her track record here.
Our freedom and civil liberties are not subject to conditions.
Nor am I required to barter for their return.
It’s time to go to war with the tyrants.
Unless you want to be a CCP serf. Inga’s already there. Howard thinks he’s going to be one of the sadistic prison guards, and he might be right.
Stop bargaining with the tyrants over your God given freedom and rights.
“One solid rule of Inga Humanitarianism is to accuse those concerned with economic depression of being racist murderers.”
And just when did this happen? Or is it once again one of your many lies or mischaracterizations?
The “tough times” are a tyrannical government with its foot on my neck.
It’s about to bring out the warrior in me.
Which side are you on? Patriot? Or groveling CCP serf?
Oh, God the CCP ass kisser and horrific liar, Inga, spouting off about lying again!
J Farmer: ok then, what's the basis in fact and personal experience that causes you to be so pessimistic?
J Farmer,
You are wrong insofar as it applies to me. This is not a partisan issue. I have been critical of Trump. I think he responded in an astute way politically, but was wrong as part of a cost-benefit analysis for America.
Instead, for me it is a matter of first principles. I believe government intervention is unlikely to solve problems better than individuals making individualized decisions. I believe most people were already acting appropriately. And I believe government intervention is causing more problems than it is solving. The default for many is to assume a benevolent, magnanimous, and prudent government. And that is nowhere supported by evidence.
Which political party wields power is beside the point.
Howard, I’m locked up in my house and my civil liberties have been revoked.
Do you really think you’re off the hook because you think you’ve got a future as an informer and prison guard?
@Birkel
I know your intentions are good, but what the fuck are you doing, pleading the case for freedom and civil liberties?
Those are God given and insured in the Bill of Rights.
@stevew:
A bit pedantic, but a "nation" has nothing to say about such things, though I'm pretty sure you are referring to its people.
To take just one example. Look at what this society has done to children. Never mind the millions that have been obliterated for the convenience of their mothers. There are the millions others who have had their parents abandon their obligations to maintain a family, fathers not in their lives, scheduled visitations, alternating holidays, child support payments, handed over to paid strangers for supervision. A society that permits such a callous disregard for children does not inspire confidence or hope.
I realize that this is might be a dumb question, but it's directed toward the con law prof: Are there V Amendment implications to this ongoing shutdown? People's livelihoods are being destroyed by government edict. Do the takings provisions apply to this sort of thing? I realize the context refers to criminal proceedings, but I would be interested to see how the takings clause might relate -- or not.
"Which political party wields power is beside the point."
Yep.
I wish the anti-Trumpers would recognize that -- if they don't like Trump -- the answer is a smaller, less intrusive government where the identity of the President doesn't become an all-encompassing object of their daily thoughts (and vice-versa when it is a different party's candidate).
Unless they really DO want an intrusive government -- they just want it to intrude on those they find deplorable.
In that case: Trump 2024.
I am Laslo.
Laslo: the grave trade-offs required of pandemic response makes leadership very difficult to conduct and very easy to criticize. In this case Trump has the toughest job of all because he now knows what in response to the pandemic, yet it is the exact opposite of what his primary supporters desire. the squip song back and forth makes him look erratic and unstable and it makes it very easy to pick on him turn up and baseball they call that being caught in a pickle.
@Howard:
Fractured and atomized are mutually exclusive
I do not see how, but feel free to elaborate.
J Farmer: ok then, what's the basis in fact and personal experience that causes you to be so pessimistic?
The history of our country for the last 60 years. Remember when conservatives used to be accused of wanting "bring back the 50s"? I'm one of them. And I'm still try to figure out why that was supposed to be a criticism.
this skinner box is very unsettling the way freedoms of association and religion and speech in some regards have been cast aside, the way economic liberty has been largely suspended, supply chains have been stretched to the breaking point, the tyrants like the cadaverous evers and 'Creosote' Pritzker, the dandy gruesome newsom and the east coast twit Cuomo (who was a player in the last economic crisis) whose idiot brother in the typhoid mary of the hamptons,
Our freedom and civil liberties are not subject to conditions.
Sure, they are. The State-established religion ("ethics") under the Twilight Amendment, Progressive Church, and Liberal institutions is Pro-Choice, selective, opportunistic, politically congruent ("=").
interesting that in a medical emergency, government has found a way to put doctors and hospitals out of business.
In what alternate universe is Andrew Sullivan a voice of reason?
A: The one where Cap'n Biff Kristol plys the USS Transition somewhere off the coast of Sarah Palin's fertile uterus.
Based on the way you post Thomas it appears that you were locked up in a prison inside your own mind.
I had a great workout at the track today. I do a pretty classic sprinters workout. My wife and I are having to move so we went looked at houses almost every day this week. When we go inside for inspections we just mask and glove up and the other people we are with do the same and everything is fine.
@Birkel:
I did not mean to imply that you, or any specific person, was acting in a partisan way. But in the aggregate, I do believe partisanship rules the day. People are more ideologically sorted than ever. This is to be expected given our society's hyperpolarization.
I am generally sympathetic to your worldview, and it is one that I share in a lot of ways. But I think it is possible for the state to use its unique position to establish and enforce law to work in ways that provide public goods to the nation. That is part of being a nationalist. The American System that prevailed from our founding basically up to WWII was predicated on the state protecting domestic industry, fostering commerce through a national bank, and subisidizing infrastructure.
Unknown,
There is a blog called the Volokh Conspiracy which has multiple posts addressing the Takings issue. I suggest going there for an in-depth analysis. It is on the Reason site, but if you use the magic google machine, you should find it.
My prison:
Both gyms I belong to are closed
Every vocal and music group that I work with is shut down
My church cannot meet face to face
My restaurants are all closed
You really are confused about the rights of American citizens, Howard. My right to freedom of movement and assembly is God given and guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. I’m not interested in justifying those rights to you. If those rights are so minimal and unnecessary, I wonder why they were included in the Bill of Rights.
Fuck gloves and masks. I’m not a serf.
Inga: "And just when did this happen? Or is it once again one of your many lies or mischaracterizations?"
The very first time you and your mini-me Ken B accused others of being racists and happy to let others die (later the murderous/killer implications were gleefully added) was in the very conversation weeks ago where you and Ken B relayed a "3%" death rate in a NY hospital and I wrote: "tell me more about this 3%"
Abd both you and he went off.
Your history here at Althouse has become so calcified with layer after layer of psychotic lying you cant even keep track of them all so you deny them.
The idea that you would try at this late date to pretend you havent accused those who disagree with you on the lockdown of being racist and happy to kill others is so astonishing it sets new records for your already established incredible record of lying and conspiracy mongering.
Which makes it on one level, rather amusing.
Shouting Thomas,
I cannot make you read the comments I have made. I also cannot make you understand them. If you have seen me once deviate from the opinion that government is bad at the things it can do well, and terrible at all the rest.
And I have written God given dozens of times these past few weeks.
Really, you'll need to find a better foil to make your points.
That's not an answer J Farmer. you're just basically saying well it was better in the 50s and it has been worse since. perhaps there is a Wikipedia website that explains your position that you can send me over to and I can take a look at that
Whoops ! Another Inga thread. Have a nice day.
they are not doing so, they aren't protecting the vulnerable, the living facility up the block is an example, in Detroit they didn't protect the littlest victims, you want to get me started on what they did in new York and california
J Farmer,
Are you really Dr. Laura? (I kid. I also like much of what she says, even though she indicts me for the decisions I have made.)
It is au courant to condemn the 50s and to brand as racist/sexist/bigot/homophobe anyone who wishes a return--or even a partial return--to the virtues of that era. What I think the name-callers are avoiding is the pith of the argument--that we flourish when we embrace certain virtues. Those virtues are not racism, sexism, bigotry--but chastity, faithfulness, loyalty, discipline, hard work, frugality, self-control.
It is far easier to caricature that era--really the 40s, 50s, and for many, the 60s, as just a bunch of racists with their boots on the necks of women and gays than it is to look in the mirror and see a person who lacks the virtues I mentioned above.
J Farmer,
It is government that has changed the incentive structures that make the behavior you describe seen rational to the actors. But you support government intervention and expansion of power in this case. Weird.
J Farmer,
Are you really Dr. Laura? (I kid. I also like much of what she says, even though she indicts me for the decisions I have made.)
It is au courant to condemn the 50s and to brand as racist/sexist/bigot/homophobe anyone who wishes a return--or even a partial return--to the virtues of that era. What I think the name-callers are avoiding is the pith of the argument--that we flourish when we embrace certain virtues. Those virtues are not racism, sexism, bigotry--but chastity, faithfulness, loyalty, discipline, hard work, frugality, self-control.
It is far easier to caricature that era--really the 40s, 50s, and for many, the 60s, as just a bunch of racists with their boots on the necks of women and gays than it is to look in the mirror and see a person who lacks the virtues I mentioned above.
Farmer
Birkel really is a crazed partisan, but I think he is right about one thing: you are WAY more of a collectivist than he is (or I am). It’s not even close.
doctrev said...
"Andrew Sullivan had some appeal, back when some Americans still trusted that the media in general, and neocons in particular, had some critical mass of qualified and benevolent leadership. That mask is off, and Sullivan's inability to say something besides paeans to the same failures that got us here, or the blindingly obvious a month late, is wearing thin. Anyone who thinks this thing can be extended to June or July in Michigan without people being killed is smoking some serious rock- particularly as most of the country is forced to open up just from public pressure. My worry is that it's already too late- that there are people who weren't working in March and April, that will nonetheless be expected to pay back the banks with money they can't have. How much do the elites really think Americans will take before a reckoning comes?
But it is no coincidence that the coddled class of HIV-positive catamites, secure in their pay and not having to work, are the most virulently hateful against the President and his comprehensive attempts to save the country from a disaster focused in New York and fueled by their corrupt Third World policies- even as the corporate New York media excoriates the productive parts of the nation in a frantic attempt to shift blame away from them and their Chinese masters. We live in an era where the people who are useful- retailers, warehouse staff, truckers, factory men, farmers, and soldiers- have never been more needed. The useless- celebrities, journalists, most politicians, and financiers of all types- have never been more worthless, and it's for that exposure that they will never forgive us. And if health care workers really are overworked and understaffed- why do hospitals keep laying them off, hmmm? It's almost like the grossly negligent bureaucrats in charge of our health policy have no idea what they're doing!"
Pitch perfect.
J Farmer: you cannot fracture a cloud
that was almost entirely where there wasn't a massive entitlement state, where tariffs were the means of revenue till 1913,
@Laslo:
I wish the anti-Trumpers would recognize that -- if they don't like Trump -- the answer is a smaller, less intrusive government where the identity of the President doesn't become an all-encompassing object of their daily thoughts (and vice-versa when it is a different party's candidate).
This is another consequence of hyperpolarization and is reflected in the Congress. The gulfs between the parties has widened. People no longer have differences of opinion or disagreements over policies. People are evil, immoral, the enemy. Compromise and reconciliation are subordinated to defeating and destroying. The reason people have increasingly looked to the president is because he is seen as a way to "get things done" as an alternative to paralysis.
And of course people want an intrusive government. How often have we heard the cliche that the president's number one job is to "protect the American people." Social welfare policies are widely supported among the population. People do not see government intrusion as the problem, per se, but on whose interest that power is deployed.
Neither the self-regulating free market of classical liberalism nor the centrally planned market of Marxism are, or even can be, the answers to our industrialized society. The public and private worlds are intertwined and cannot be made asunder.
penny dreadful, the follow up to homeland has Nazis in Pasadena, Shirley they can't be serious, and a thinly disguised aime semple McPherson, so it already jumped the megalodon,
J Farmer,
The federal government can do a few things well that it ought to do:
1) national defense,
2) border security,
3) preventing anti-competitive business practices (market failures / game theory stuff),
4) protecting individual rights, and
5) disseminating information.
If you would like to suggest a sixth thing I will listen and be skeptical.
Ken B is a liar and a Concern Troll.
<a href="https://www.theblaze.com/news/dallas-salon-owner-refuses-to-close-despite-government-threat'> rebellion takes interesting forms </a>
The mistake we made was in agreeing that there were any conditions that justified subjecting the citizenry to house arrest and the suspension of basic civil liberties.
Now, we are in the absurd position of engaging in an argument with our jailers over the conditions for our release.
We granted them a power that they do not legally possess.
@Birkel:
It is government that has changed the incentive structures that make the behavior you describe seen rational to the actors. But you support government intervention and expansion of power in this case. Weird.
As Andrew Breitbart famously remarked, "politics is downstream of culture." It's the culture that is largely the problem, and our politics reflects this.
of course Dorsey loads up the most idiotic response from the equivalent of dr. nick Riviera
the great toll
J Farmer,
There is a symbiosis. A few (almost all Leftist Collectivists) pushes for changing society. After the rules were changed under foot, many people who are not radicals saw the incentives before them and changed behavior.
Breitbart was wrong. The points of attack were from the courts and academia. Those two areas are anti- small-d-democratic.
otoh
getting an early start on the café, I wanted to recommend Andrei bely's Petersburg, as an interesting literary artefact, one might call it magical realism,
@Ken B:
Birkel really is a crazed partisan, but I think he is right about one thing: you are WAY more of a collectivist than he is (or I am). It’s not even close.
I don't doubt that. I am not a classical liberal or a libertarian, and I consider those utopian ideas that cannot come into existence, and that justifying decisions because they move us in that direction is not anything I support.
From the point of view of an owner, it is perfectly rational to move production to a foreign country and take advantage of the low costs of labor and relaxed standards. It is perfectly rational to support bringing in visa workers, who will work for less money than a native worker. I think the government should stop these things.
@Birkel:
Breitbart was wrong. The points of attack were from the courts and academia. Those two areas are anti- small-d-democratic.
Academia is part of our culture. I agree that courts have played a role in this, but they were abetted not just by progressivism but the radical individualism of classical liberal and libertarian thinking. The counterculture sprung up not as a result of academia or courts but mainly as an outgrowth of the civil rights movement and in response to the Vietnam War.
Off topic, but did y'all see this about Gen. Flynn?
I tend to only believe things when I see them - but Herridge & Bartiromo are two kick-ass journalists (and female too).
No, it was a direct outgrowth of Marxism and the push for Collectivism. The Long March happened and was successful. And the Russians funded quite a bit of it. The Chinese have continued to do so.
You're off base.
Bay Area Guy,
I hope Trump immediately hires General Flynn.
J Farmer,
Four years ago, I would have been on the side of the owners. Because I wanted to believe that globalization and almost total freedom of capital would lead to better conditions for everyone here. DJT actually persuaded me to rethink my position--although I think Tucker Carlson is a better spokesperson for the Americans who are hurt by the policies of globalization and liberal immigration.
I have always hated the visa program. Why should we bring in a bunch of people who do not share our culture and civilization to replace citizens who have worked and studied? Similarly with low-skilled immigration--why should we flood the market with labor so cheap that no American can live the way Americans live and do the work? By that I mean, a single family living by itself in a residence meant for a single family. Versus a dozen immigrant men who share beds on a rotating basis, living in a 3 bedroom house, and sending all their money out of the country. That is madness to me.
And if Americans "won't do the jobs," then the producers will have to figure out a better way. And some of the people I know will have to pay more for their arugula and wine.
narciso,
Sounds interesting. Thanks.
Anne-I-Am,
If not for low wage workers, the "Fight for 15" would have been unnecessary. Isn't it funny that the Left creates problems and then solves them with... MORE LEFT.
Howard said...My wife and I are having to move so we went looked at houses almost every day this week.
--
The responsible realtors are employing virtual tours.
You just want people to die.
Birkel,
The Law of Unintended Consequences is an unfamiliar concept to most on the Left. And to those to whom it isn't, it is because the consequences are intended.
In what alternate universe is Andrew Sullivan a voice of reason?
Now that he's no longer getting paid regularly, Prince Andrew sounds more subjective, suggestive and intuitive -- more like an essayist or novelist or even a poet than a facts-and-reality-based journalist. The rest of us are only getting that way now. He's been there for years.
And I will note, contra what has been contended here by some, that I was accused of indifference to the death of millions when I objected to the panic over this virus. It was more than accusation--it was a malicious, mud-slinging, pathological attack; including a commenter who called me a fraud.
That these same people want to airbrush that out of history is repulsive.
Batgirl is cute even when green.
Christopher Lasch, responding to a doctor urging him to do chemo to buy a few more months of terminal cancer:
"I despise the cowardly clinging to life, purely for the sake of life, that seems so deeply ingrained in the American temperament."
Anne,
Everybody knows except the perpetrators. Their efforts at gaslighting are worthless.
In some way they believe they have a winning strategy: obnoxiousness.
That and Inga is Weapons Grade Stupid.
@Birkel:
No, it was a direct outgrowth of Marxism and the push for Collectivism
I have heard this claim many times on the right, and honestly I have never read a very convincing explanation of exactly how this happened. Although, they can't seem to decide if it was "Marxism" or "post-modernism" or in Jordan Peterson's bizarre formulation "post-modern neo-Marxists." They have never explained, to my knowledge, how the conflicting and mutually exclusive notions in these ideas are reconcile or synthesized.
My other problem is I am not even sure what people mean when they say "Marxism." There seems to be a notion that Marxism is a coherent political ideology with goals and intent. At its most basic, Marxism is merely a method for analyzing history using the materialist conception of history and the dialectic. Even the devout, admitted followers of Marx cannot agree on what it means to be a Marxist. Marx himself often had strong disagreements with people who identified themselves as Marxist. They never identify which school of Marxism is to blame. The traditional Marxists, the academic Marxists, the neo-Marxists, the post-Marxists, Marxist-Leninist, etc.
Say something useful if you want a response better than this one.
All your arguing about terminology is insufferable.
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2020/04/26/new-yorker-staffer-and-former-carter-speechwriter-time-for-a-military-coup/
Birkel said...
Bay Area Guy,
I hope Trump immediately hires General Flynn.
And makes him the Director of the CIA.
Dr Katz on Bill Maher
Adult discussion of Pandemic
never monf
@Anne:
I have always hated the visa program. Why should we bring in a bunch of people who do not share our culture and civilization to replace citizens who have worked and studied?
Free market types are consumed with the notion that liberalizing economies will not just increase wealth and standards of living but will result in political liberalizing, too. This was one of the big arguments for trade with China and was widely supported by the business community. Same for immigration. We were assured that the workers whose jobs would be eliminated would be "retrained." Instead, communities were decimated. Not only did the workers lose their income, but the businesses that were supporting the community closed, too. Anyone with resources moved away. Those who weren't waded in and out part-time, low-paying jobs and got hooked on pills.
The free market of classical liberalism may have made some sense in the agrarian and labor-intensive manufacturing era in which it was formulated. But one of the reasons the various isms took shape in the 19th century was because of the massive dislocations happening in society. State power did not grow because of the influence of German or French intellectuals, but because the organizational complexity of society was increasing at an historically unprecedented pace. In massive numbers people left farms and went into factories, where work conditions were often brutal and owners and managers exercised tyrannical control over their behavior. These experiences are what resulted in progressive social movements in the 1890s that eventually coalesced into a political movement.
What part of the Bill of Rights seems childish to you, Howard?
That's one of the things Marines are supposed to fight to protect, right?
That these same people want to airbrush that out of history is repulsive.
@Anne-You-Are, that’s all they have. A number of us commenting on this thread have noted that people who have until very recently called those of us who favor ending the lockdown murders and worse. Then suddenly there’s a big turnaround, with them reluctantly agreeing that the economic pain of continuing the lockdown is unsustainable. I see two plausible explanations.
(1) Eventually reality broke through their fantasy world and they found themselves forced to admit what was obvious to the rest of us weeks ago. Their brains may be denser than spent uranium, but sooner or later the obvious becomes, well, obvious — and even to them.
(2) More likely, the DNC’s polling showed that fighting against Trump on reopening the economy was a big loser, putting the House, various Senate seats, and critical governorships at risk in November. And so a new set of talking points went out to professional trolls.
Free market types are (potentially?) arguing for the return to the mean for America, effectively. Comparative advantage allows for some differentiation in salaries but not what currently exists. Why the "free" traders want the United States standard of living to trend down while kleptocrats in 3rd world shitholes reap the benefits is beyond me.
Potentially and also unwittingly.
A question mark for both propositions.
@Birkel:
All your arguing about terminology is insufferable.
Well, when you say something was "a direct outgrowth of Marxism and the push for Collectivism," you've only put terminology on the table to talk about. What Marxism? Who were these Marxists? How did these Marxists effect such change?
Why the "free" traders want the United States standard of living to trend down while kleptocrats in 3rd world shitholes reap the benefits is beyond me.
They are insulated from those effects. The working class' standards go down, but there's go up. And they get cheap services from low-skilled immigrant labor.
Big Mike,
Both work. Number two flows from number one--refusing to reopen the economy is a loser because the majority of Americans are not hypocritical cowards only concerned with their own safety. And they are more capable of assessing risk than their so-called betters think they are.
They are insulated from the effects--and they can harness resentment and identity politics to stay the beneficiaries of policies that bleed the working class dry. By promising the working class members who qualify for their identity politics and the politics of resentment similar insulation from the effects. By redistributing the wages/salaries of the poor schmucks who don't qualify for special treatment due to skin color, genitals, or mental illness.
Big drop in daily deaths yesterday. Excellent news.
No, Smug. You get into your pedantic mode and Smug it up all you want. If I cannot use reasonable shorthand to communicate because you - and really only you - refuse to accept well known terms, you waste everybody's time.
Earlier in this thread you were J Farmer. Smug away.
There is a graph, called the elephant graph, that shows that real income growth for the highest and lowest wage owners has come at the expense of growth in middle-earner wages.
The free marketers see no problem with that. The world's poorest have become wealthier! This is great! The American middle class shouldn't complain!
It is great to sacrifice the prosperity of others, isn't it?
I'm of two minds about the visa program. The worst part of it is it takes high skills people who you would really *want* as immigrants in a rational system and makes it almost impossible for them to immigrate despite living here for years. I knew a great guy from India who got jerked around by the system for years.
@Birkel:
No, Smug. You get into your pedantic mode and Smug it up all you want. If I cannot use reasonable shorthand to communicate because you - and really only you - refuse to accept well known terms, you waste everybody's time.
In case anyone is curious, this is exactly Birkel's MO. When he reaches a point in an argument where he has no response, he pounds his fists and stomps off like a spoiled brat.
Asking you to explain how "Marxism" is the cause of something, that is not refusing "to accept well known terms." But of course, that's not even the reason you're throwing a temper tantrum. You can't actually answer it. I don't doubt that you believe, you just can't explain why you believe it, because it wasn't a conclusion you came through by seriously considering the question. Rather, it's an opinion shared by ideological brethren that you've accepted uncritically.
And now I'll come back later and see that you've written some insulting, snide remark. At lest do me a favor and make it clever.
No, Smug. I am genuinely above wasting my time with pedants.
“ I am genuinely above wasting my time with pedants.”
Top man. Top.
@Lewis Wetzel:
The free marketers see no problem with that.
Or will say that it was actually the result of some wrongheaded government action, which just proves that we need to reduce the government more to reveal that our ideology (and our priors) is correct. It's their version of "real socialism hasn't been tried." By promoting a utopian model that no society can ever achieved, any deficiencies in their model is blamed on the fact that we have yet to reach the utopian ideal and just need to try harder.
Blogger Churchy LaFemme: said...
I'm of two minds about the visa program. The worst part of it is it takes high skills people who you would really *want* as immigrants in a rational system and makes it almost impossible for them to immigrate despite living here for years. I knew a great guy from India who got jerked around by the system for years.
The flip side of that is there are Americans who really are less desirable as Americans, not because they have broken any laws or have any defect of character, but because they contribute relatively less than some immigrant might contribute.
Maybe the great guy from India should try to make India a better place to live? Unless you are a missionary, it's more than a little smug to believe that your emigration to another country is justified because you will improve the lives of the natives.
No, Smug. I am genuinely above wasting my time with pedants.
I said make it clever, not make me yawn. Curious how it always turns into a waste of your time the second I try to get beyond your bumper stick sloganeering.
>>the ability of the state to restrict citizens during a public health crisis is well established.
That begs the question: Was there a serious health crisis?
The numbers are being inflated, at least partly to justify that suspension.
"Family, Industriousness, Public Virtue"
Daaay-uummm, Farmer's a Petainist!
Narr
Travail, Famille, Patrie!
Lewis Wetzel,
Just so. All this lecturing about immigrants adding so much to the US. Why? Because their IQ or work ethic is better than a random American? So? Their IQ and work ethic may also be lower than the American they replace simply because they will work for less. And their culture is almost certainly not superior. They bring with them the tribalism and weaknesses of the third world countries from which they come.
A case in point. A friend who works for a large bank tells about the Indian women they brought over to work. They could not or would not American toilets, preferring to stand on top of the toilet seat and defecate from above. Pity the poor Mexican woman who had to clean THAT up. Guess they were cheaper for the bank, but superior people?
Pedantic arguments are fun. Prove to me that the letter 'e' is the best representation of the concept of 'e' and deconstruct all the things.
Prove your own existence. Prove you are not a computer simulation.
#FreshmanYearBullShitSessions@3am
Farmer
He dared you. Can the dreaded double dog dare be far behind? Or *shudder* the sinister triple dog dare?
@Birkel:
#FreshmanYearBullShitSessions@3am
Haha. The tantrum continues. And just as a reminder, the comment you're fulminating against was: "What Marxism? Who were these Marxists? How did these Marxists effect such change?"
Oh yeah, wildly pedantic. Absurdly deconstructionist. But I guess any insult will do to avoid having to say, "I don't know." But he's a better (and less childish) solution: don't make claims you can't back up.
But at least that comment was was good for a laugh. Thanks.
"Kefty Lies and Mondays Always Bring Me Down..."
~apologies to the Carpenters.
@Narr:
Daaay-uummm, Farmer's a Petainist!
Haha. Vichy France is not exactly my model. And I don't think I would equate public virtue with patrie.
Cannot =/= Will not
If you did not start every potential argument with "Let me make you defend everything while I contribute nothing" then we might engage. But I know you will not (or is it cannot?) do that.
Again, my point was and remains that the academy and the courts - neither small-d democratic - were the levers by which a small minority changed the inventive structures so that a much larger set of people respond reasonably to the incentives.
For example: The costs of raising children has been raised so that many people eschew having kids despite the fact it is one of the most rewarding things a person can do. The costs have been raised such that people stopped doing a thing that is good for themselves and society more broadly. Feel free to argue against the point I made instead of debating terms that make you uncomfortable.
Also, feel free to deny that the Long March happened. Prove the stated goals of those advocating that position did not in fact start or complete that task.
But if you think taking the rhetorical tack of always putting the other person on the defensive is useful, keep doing that. And I will continue to call you Smug when you do. I owe you nothing. And I will reciprocate the level of respect you offer.
@DanTheMan:
That begs the question: Was there a serious health crisis?
The numbers are being inflated, at least partly to justify that suspension.
That's not what begs the question mean. (Now that's pedantic!) As for your second point, the CDC data distinguishes between confirmed cases and probable cases. The public health national emergency is not dependent on a certain number of deahts,
Mind you, I am not defending any particular response to the crisis.
Well, Farmer, it's your list, and you lamented that "our nation" fails to exhibit these virtues. But I didn't say you were wrong, so there's that.
Narr
Virtues have their place
As I have stated before - I view everything USA through the prism of what I learned from Ayn Rand (was almost statist in my ignorance)
The Fountainhead for lack of a better word "social dynamics" of media communication etc.
The Atlas Shrugged for how an industrial economy can be stopped if you know accurately what the choke point is.
My Q : in Atlas shrugged there is The State Science Institute and Robert Stadler preaching against Rearden Metal etc.
At present time I believe we are seeing :State Medicine Institute: and :would be :Stadlers: preaching against a rational approach to dealing with this contagion?
is that fair summation? Outcome resting on American Sense of Life - is enough of it still left in this country?
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