Said Nancy Pelosi, quoted in
"Pelosi Says House Will Condemn All Hate as Anti-Semitism Debate Overshadows Congress" (NYT).
She took a shot at President Trump and his equivocal statements after the deadly white supremacist march in Charlottesville, Va., in 2017: “The president may think there are good people on both sides, we don’t share that view.”
Democrats are confident that they can unite the caucus, and they want to get the fight over [Ilhan] Omar out of the way.... Ms. Omar, a Minnesota Democrat and one of the first two Muslim women elected to Congress, has been fending off accusations of anti-Semitism for weeks...
“It’s not about her, it’s about these forms of hatred,” Ms. Pelosi said about the resolution. Tensions boiled over in a closed-door meeting of House Democrats on Wednesday that pitted older Jewish Democrats who want a forthright statement condemning anti-Semitism against younger liberals....
For another perspective, here's
"The Democratic Inquisition has come after Ilhan Omar/But strong popular resistance is foiling attempts to burn her at the political stake" by Richard Silverstein (Al Jazeera):
Stuck in its old ways and almost taking dictation from the Israel lobby, the Democratic congressional leadership decided to make an example of Omar by preparing a resolution denouncing anti-Semitism and by implication, her. This is the Democratic Party eating its young....
Ocasio-Cortez and Senator Bernie Sanders have criticised the vicious campaign against Omar; other progressive members of Congress have also expressed their support for her. The New York Times, in a sympathetic report, noted the generational split between a younger generation of insurgents like Omar and older, veteran colleagues who started their political careers at a time when AIPAC held absolute control over these issues....
Today there is a countervailing force of progressive Democrats, Jews and non-Jews, who no longer take marching orders from the white, male, plutocrats of the Israel lobby. They have become strong enough not only to bring the likes of Omar to Congress but also to keep them there and grow their numbers.
Posts
496 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 496 Newer› Newest»It is amazing to me that two outliers (AOC and Ilhan Omar) within a body of 435 people are able to generate (not garner) as much publicity as they have. Where does all this attention come from (he asked sarcastically)?
Any *real* American would give his life for Israel. Ireland not so much.
To Farmer: There's a difference between supporting Israel and disagreeing with some tactics here and there, and your stance, which appears to be "If Iran drops the Bomb over Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, it won't bother me one teensy tiny bit! I don't care one whit how many millions of Jews get slaughtered over there; it ain't no skin off my back, and the US should not lift one finger to help!"
Coupled with your strenuous defense of Iran, one can easily draw the conclusion that you aren't fond of Jews and while you don't advocate murdering them, per se, you don't really mind it when other people do.
My guess: you are a real old school Ron Paul type, who isn't at all afraid to have a beef against the Jews. Ron and Rand Paul types have a lot of good ideas, and then a whole bunch of nutty stuff. But you, Farmer, are not a valiant defender of Jews and Israel... of that, it is quite clear. Indeed, I question how much you think Adolf was wrong with his "Final Solution". Sure, you wouldn't participate... but I doubt it would have. bothered your conscience any.
--Vance
@Big Mike:
@Farmer, Israel has been facing existential threats for seventy years. It means we stay the fuck out of their way when they do what they need to do to survive.
I guess we can call this threat inflation by proxy. Israel has not faced significant threats to its national security in decades. From the 1940s through the 1970s, Israel faced the threat of large Arab armies. Those threats have since receded. Israel has a treaty with Egypt and with Jordan. In addition, Israel is by the far the dominant power in the region. It has the most advanced, best equipped, and well trained military in the region. It is rich and technologically advanced. Not to mention a nuclear weapons state. Israel has more than enough resources to protect itself from the relatively weak Palestinians.
“Just because one supports another country or is proud of their heritage does NOT make them less American.”-me
“Actually, that's exactly what it does.
As I stated before, if you run around claiming your X-American - instead of just plain, ol' American - don't get all pissed off when people question your loyalties.”-dumbass
“Eli Lake talking to a member of J Street gets right to the point here:
Disagreement over Israel policy is fine, but only one side of the debate at this point is questioning the loyalty of Americans who support Israel and that's not the right at the moment that is the left. So let's talk about what's going on. Nobody is saying that you're anti-Semitic because you're critical of Benjamin Netanyahu. I wrote a very critical column of Benjamin Netanyahu last week and nobody came out and said I was anti-Semitic. This is because there are plenty of ways you can criticize Israel but to question the loyalty of Israel's American supporters is a red line that this congresswoman has crossed and it should be renounced.
I’m sorry you’re too unintelligent to follow the argument.
Both of Pelosi's parents had Italian roots.
That explains why I hated the trees in Italy.
The whole thing is little more than an effort to convict someone of thought crime. What matters is how people behave, what they do, and how they treat people.
Yes!
Not much more needs to be said on the matter, but people wanna argue.
Ah, Congress, doing everything in their power to uphold the Constitution and to improve the lives of their constituents.
@Vance:
Indeed, I question how much you think Adolf was wrong with his "Final Solution". Sure, you wouldn't participate... but I doubt it would have. bothered your conscience any.
Oh brother. I wonder if it's even worth responding to such drivel.
My guess: you are a real old school Ron Paul type, who isn't at all afraid to have a beef against the Jews.
I am not a Ron Paul type. He is a libertarian. I am not. I am a conservative. Also, the notion of having a "beef against" an ethnic group is, I think, an absurdity. I don't believe it is possible to have a beef with an identity group; I think you have beefs with individual people and for individual reasons, not because of their membership in a group, which says absolutely nothing about their individual worth or character.
But you, Farmer, are not a valiant defender of Jews and Israel
You're right. I am neither a Jew nor an Israeli. But I am an American and am a valiant defender of my nation and its history and its heritage. And I am happy for Israelis to feel the same way about their national heritage. But as John Quincy Adams said, "She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."
But what you call anti-Muslim comments are simply factual information about Islam and the practices of Muslims.
You can’t have it both ways. Americans who support Israel are as American as Americans who support or are proud of their heritage, no matter WHERE it is. Then there are Americans like my daughter who hold both German and Jewish heritage and supports both countries. Supporting a country doesn’t mean you are not an American first and foremost.
Took 'em awhile to get Omar's approval for a resolution condemning Omar's remarks.
Omar can be criticized, she should not be silenced.
Inga, you do not allow MAGA hat wearing Americans to be real Americans... they are "hater bigoted McHaters! Deplorables! They should have their rights stripped from them!"
So please reconcile that with your current argument. You cannot even grant fellow Americans that they are even human (after all you are the one who struggled mightily for months with the idea that shooting Republicans in cold blood might not be 100% wonderful).
Of course, that's the real reason you support Omar and her fiery burning hatred of the Jews... those icky conservatives are calling her out on it, so of course you have to support her! I honestly believe that if Trump and the conservatives came out and pushed strongly to condemn Hitler as a current issue, you would suddenly be defending him. And with Omar around, that's not a farfetched scenario. Once it's more common knowledge that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a Muslim, was the one who convinced Hitler to kill the Jews instead of exile them to Madagascar, I suspect Omar will start praising the National Socialists. And you'll be right along with her at that point.
--Vance
J.Farmer: Oh brother. I wonder if it's even worth responding to such drivel.
No, but I appreciated your amiable restraint in responding to that despicable outpouring.
We are failing to combat hate sufficiently. It is time for a new path.
Make hate great again.
To stand with Israel is to accept that Israel has the right to defend itself and its borders. It is to accept that after the crimes committed against European Jews in the 20th Century, Jews were entitled to have, if they wanted it, a homeland with secure borders. At the end of WWII, there were huge movements of displaced people. East Prussia disappeared. 13 milion Prussians went somewhere as the borders of Poland were pushed west. Millions of Indians were displaced with the sudden creation of Pakistan, and millions died. The United Nations authorized the creation of the state of Isreal. Of all the movements of peoples at the end of the war, the only one that is still open for debate on the left is the creation of Israel, a rich, democratic dynamic democracy at the edge of the Levant. Israel is at peace with Egypt and Jordan. The rest of the Arab world wants nothing to do with the displaced Palestinians. It is time to move on in the Middle East. Israel is there for all time. Nothing that some overpromoted nitwit says is going to change that. The democrats are going to choke on Ilhan Omar.
“Make hate great again.”
Trumpism has ready done that.
“Those threats have since receded. Israel has a treaty with Egypt and with Jordan.”
Yeah, and the USSR had a pact with Germany. How did that work out?
And the prospect of a nuclear Iran? No big deal, right?
I hate iphones. You can’t manage an extended rant on these darn things without making editorial mistakes.
Let's try a different approach since some people can't comprehend basic English.
American = American
X-American = American/2
American/2 < American
I don’t comprehend you, Jim. Are you criticizing dual passport Americans? I have a friend who became a dual US/UK citizen to get through the lines at Heathrow faster. If I were Jewish and a French citizen, I think I might want Israeli or US citizenship as well.
The US tax system makes it very difficult to be an offshore US citizen, as Paul Manafort is finding out. We tax the global income of our citizens.
@Amadeus 48:
To stand with Israel is to accept that Israel has the right to defend itself and its borders.
Of course, the "its borders" part is a very contentious issue.
It is to accept that after the crimes committed against European Jews in the 20th Century, Jews were entitled to have, if they wanted it, a homeland with secure borders.
If I were a palestinian, I would imagine finding it hard to accept that I had to pay the price of displacement and land to compensate for the crimes of the European powers.
It is time to move on in the Middle East. Israel is there for all time. Nothing that some overpromoted nitwit says is going to change that. The democrats are going to choke on Ilhan Omar.
Acting as if Israel's existence hangs in the balance is the original error. Israel is an internationally recognized state with international borders. That is not going to change. And like all states, it has a legitimate right to national self-determination and self-defense. I don't even have a problem with Israel's explicit ethnic national orientation. In fact, as an ethno-nationalist, I applaud it.
But you are conflating the State of Israel with the Occupied Territories. Israel itself acknowledges that these territories are not part of the Israeli state, since otherwise their inhabitants would be citizens. And yet, Israel exerts a tremendous degree of culture over these territories, including pockets of Israeli civilian settlements. Such an arrangement is sure to promote a backlash by the local inhabitants. The dynamics have such conflicts are well known and well studied in history. But that is the ultimate linchpin in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I think many of the issues (e.g. the status of East Jerusalem, the right of return) are quite vexed, and as I have said for a long time, I do not believe the US should be primarily involved in trying to broker a peace deal. I think we should by and large stay neutral to the conflict.
Of course, in global terms, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is of pretty much zero real strategic interest. It's about 8,000 square miles, a little smaller than the state of New Jersey. But, through the accidents of history, it happens to lie on top of the crossroads of the world's three monotheisms and thus commands a tremendous amount of cultural importance.
I suspect our President is having popcorn after his two scoops of ice cream tonight.
Defining the relationship of the US being a close ally of Israel as "allegiance," i.e., being a subject of Israeli sovereignty goes hand in hand with the belief by anti-Semites that Jews have all the power, etc. One might think that a group which produces highly functioning and productive members of a society would be admired and respected. A rational person would admire the number of Nobel prizes Jews have won, an anti-semite finds it infuriating and looks for rationalization of that hatred. Jews aren't loyal to the US, etc., for example. To understand the anti-Semite you have to understand the need some people have for a scapegoat, and the hatred they feel toward those who are supposedly inferior who are more educated and have a higher standard of living and more power. (Similarly, this happens in Pakistan today to young Christian boys who are at the top of their classes are beaten and murdered by jealous Muslim classmates.)
In the past anti-Semites could stage a pogrom, kill or exile the Jews. Now a days we can invalidate Jews with accusations of dual loyalty, Israeli apartheid, terrorism, oppression of Palestinians, accusations of corruption.” Omar’s insinuation that Jews have too much money and are not loyal to the US are standard anti-Semitic tropes. That doesn’t mean she can’t behave nicely towards Jews personally. That’s a misconception about anti-Semites.
For all the talk about how we are not allowed to criticize Israel, lots of people do. Jews who want to appear progressive and beyond being one of the chosen have created organizations to criticize Israel, go the extra mile to criticize Israel. What is missing, nonexistent actually, is any serious criticism by progressives about the governing bodies of Palestinians or their notoriously corrupt political leaders, and the extreme Jew hatred endemic to Koranic doctrine. Despite the billions in aid we have given Palestinians over the decades Palestinian society there is no accountability, no one seems to notice. We are told by the Left that Israel is to blame for everything. We can't even discuss or criticize the redefinition by the UN of the word refugee for Palestinians alone to include in perpetuity the descendants of the original Arab residents of Palestine. No other group has that permanent designation by the UN. We can look the other way that Arab countries decided not to ever offer citizenship to the Palestinian refugees and their great grandchildren, and to keep these people in camps, as if they are only political weapons and not humans. Somehow progressives are never fighting for the dignity of those Palestinians in "refugee" camps. The critical eye is always solely on Israel. I see this bias all the time in people who are supposedly educated on the conflict. Why are they so one sided against Israel?
Now that we are called upon to condemn all hatred, will the Left continue to ignore the obvious intention of the chant, "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free?" I doubt that chant is going away.
What do we HATE?
We HATE HATE!!!!!!
Profiles in courage.
@James K:
Yeah, and the USSR had a pact with Germany. How did that work out?
That isn't the point. I have no way of predicting the future. Do you? We're talking about assessing Israel's current security situation, and the fact is that Israel does not face anywhere near the level of threat it faced 60-70 years ago.
And the prospect of a nuclear Iran? No big deal, right?
An undesirable but manageable threat. Nuclear weapons make no sense as offensive, first strike weapons. Unless of course the power deploying them does not care about being utterly destroyed. I think the notion that the Iranian regime is suicidal is fanciful. If anything, it's interest has shown it to be obsessed (and rather adept) at self-preservation. It's foreign policy is largely driven by self-interested pragmatism rather than rigidly ideological lines.
Plus, Iran has not had an active nuclear weapons program for more than 15 years and under the terms of the JCPOA is effectively blocked from developing one. Trump's decision to pull out of the JCPOA, reinstitute sanctions, and pursue a "maximum pressure" campaign in favor of a "better deal" was a blunder.
My daughter calls herself Jewish American, in Meade’s eyes, she’s not his fellow American.
A Jewish American is a kind of American. An American Jew is a kind of Jew. There is a subtle but important distinction.
J Farmer—The occupied territories are indeed a vexed problem. Sharon always said that the settlements gave him something to trade, but the settlers don’t see it that way. The Palestinians ought to be looking to a prosperous future in partnership with Israel, Jordan, and Egypt, but the Palestinians don’t see it that way, either. I don’t think anyone on the scene, including the JStreet crowd, has a very realistic vision for the future. It could be good, but it isn’t.
“A Jewish American is a kind of American. An American Jew is a kind of Jew. There is a subtle but important distinction.”
Indeed, but that isn’t Jim and Meade’s point from a different thread. Their point is that any American who uses the term “Jewish-American or German-American or Italian-American are not really true “Americans”.
mikesixes said...
Took 'em awhile to get Omar's approval for a resolution condemning Omar's remarks.
If by "Omar" you mean CAIR/Muslim Brotherhood you'd be correct.
@J.Farmer,
In general, I very much respect your opinion, even when I differ with you. And, I do agree that criticizing Israel does not, ipso facto, equate with anti-semitism.
The phrase "dual-loyalty" by Omar is kinda-sorta like the phrase "n%@gger-lover" used in the South 60 years ago. It's meant to discredit opponents, rather than debate the issue.
I have one small quibble with you, perhaps it is esoteric.
You write:
But you are conflating the State of Israel with the Occupied Territories.
I know what you mean by "Occupied Territories" but, in my mind, that is the language of the Left, the language of the PLO, the language of the extreme elements in the Arab world who refuse to even acknowledge that Israel exists, let alone has a right to exist.
My rough understanding of the 6 Day War of 1967 is that 4 Arab countries (Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq) amassed several divisions on the border to coordinate an attack against Israel. Long story short, Israel rebuffed this, in part, by destroying many Egyptian planes on the tarmac, fighting off all 4 armies, and prevailing. As a result, Israel took some disputed land on the border and in Jerusalem ("Occupied Territories").
I guess my minor beef is with the language, not the concept. I think, in general, that if a country invades you, but you win, then Yes, it's reasonable to take some land as a buffer zone, and perhaps a bit more. To the victors, go the spoils, so to speak.
My 2 cents.
"She can be condemned for her speech, but if you make certain speech illegal, Trump would be as guilty as Ilhan Omar."
This is amazing. With her moral equivalency Inga is going all in for her favorite anti-Semites. It is really rich comparing Jew hatred to Islamophobia since Islam has probably inspired more murders than any other ideology - ever. The left with their 100 million murders in the last century have succeeded in killing people more rapidly than Muslims but over the last thousand years Muslims are way ahead.
“That isn't the point. I have no way of predicting the future. Do you?“
Israel doesn’t have the option of ‘predicting the future.’ One mistaken assumption and they are toast. It’s a bit easier for you from your armchair in Wisconsin.
Thank God the Congress vote against "Hate" and is in favor of Israel. I was REALLY worried there. It was as Wellington once said of Waterloo "A damn close thing".
Oh wait, it was 433-0. Well, how surprising. Anyway, I can't wait to get a hold of the bastards who REFUSED to vote against "Hate". I'd show them a thing or two.
I'm usually against dual citizenship. Except when it comes to Jews. Everything they do is Great. Really.
DAVID DUKE SAYS.... ILHAN MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN THE SENATE.
Says it all for me!
Instead of dealing with antisemitism, Nancy is dealing with white supremacism.
Omar gets a pass.
Next on the house agenda- a resolution endorsing world peace!
Here's one goin out to Inga (She Devil of the SS) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWZ32XIsZIU
Remember, no one todat gives a hoot about the Germans kicked out of the east or the Muslims left behind in India, or the displaced people from Yugoslavia, or the Soviet republics, or the people kicked out of the Sudetenland, or the European refugees. It is only the Jews, Israel, and the Palestinians. So J Farmer is right—a place of minimal strategic implortance, but a place strong ties to Europe and the US. Do we care? Many of us do.
Full disclosure: I am neither Jewish nor an evangelical Christian.
@Bay Area Guy:
I know what you mean by "Occupied Territories" but, in my mind, that is the language of the Left, the language of the PLO, the language of the extreme elements in the Arab world who refuse to even acknowledge that Israel exists, let alone has a right to exist.
That's been the language of the international community on this issue from the very beginning, including the language of Arthur Goldberg in UN resolution 242. The US, every one of our major allies, and every court that has been tasked with answering the question, including Israel's own Supreme Court, has concluded that the territories are considered occupied under international law.
Good news from Paul Krugman: My own side’s anti-semitism doesn’t scare me
We know.
Logic would reverse these two passages that Ann reproduces. The second passage nicely combines BOTH Omar's vicious anti-Semitism with intersectionality nicely as in "take marching orders from the white, male, plutocrats of the Israel lobby." The first passage shows how these two things translate into the total victory of the bullying victims over even their own pathetically cowed liberal enablers.
"This one, however, is far from pointless, is it not?"
Nope. Still pointless. Doesn't mean a gosh darn thing. Omar is free to say anti-Semitic things all day long. She is also free to suffer the consequences of her speech. Resolutions by Congress are stupid and a waste of time, no matter what they're about. Most of them are probably some kind of virtue-signaling BS and honorariums. This is no different.
However, it is hilarious as Drago has pointed out that useless theater is causing such chaos in the Democrat Party.
Iran has not had an active nuclear weapons program for more than 15 years and under the terms of the JCPOA is effectively blocked from developing one.
But -- "if it steps up work on its nuclear program and violates the 2015 deal with the West, according to a recent Israeli intelligence assessment ... it would have enough fissionable material within a year".
..." ... As a Twitter pal says, “At least he’s honest about not giving a sh*t when his own side hates Jews.” Indeed — and House Democrats too, really. If that’s not the lesson of the last few days, what is?
Krugman’s colleague on the NYT op-ed page, Bret Stephens, has a trenchant read on the Omar debacle today, specifically the push by some House Dems to treat Omar as the victim in this. There are various ways one could spin her point about Israel supporters having “allegiance” to a foreign country, after all. You could claim, as Pelosi did this morning, that Omar is a sort of idiot child who doesn’t understand her own words. You could claim, as James Clyburn did, that Omar’s had a rougher life than descendants of Holocaust survivors and therefore outranks them in the victim hierarchy. You could claim, as many Democrats did, that all prejudices are bad and so, however you feel about Omar’s dual-loyalty point, we should all be able to agree that it doesn’t deserve special condemnation in the form of a House resolution.
But a few Dems, most notably Kamala Harris, have taken the extra step of trying to present Omar herself as the wronged party. “Hard to watch Rep. Scalise demand that Rep. [Ilhan Omar] be removed from House Foreign Affairs w/o wondering if it’s steeped in Islamophobia,” sniffed Rashida Tlaib. “Congresswoman Omar and her loved ones have had their humanity threatened, both by the general public and by government officials,” Ayanna Pressley complained. Treating the victimizer of Jews as a victim is familiar to Stephens:... "
@J. Farmer,
Re "Occupied Territories"
That's been the language of the international community on this issue from the very beginning, including the language of Arthur Goldberg in UN resolution 242. The US, every one of our major allies, and every court that has been tasked with answering the question, including Israel's own Supreme Court, has concluded that the territories are considered occupied under international law.
Yeah, on this issue, I'm not a big fan of the UN or the international community or international law. They seem to gang up on Israel all too often.
But, not a big issue. You can have the last word.
@James K:
Israel doesn’t have the option of ‘predicting the future.’ One mistaken assumption and they are toast. It’s a bit easier for you from your armchair in Wisconsin.
I live in Florida, not Wisconsin. And no, "one mistaken assumption" does not mean they are toast. That is hysterical. Israeli made some miscalculations in the Lebanon War. Did that result in them being toast? Of course, you don't have to take my word for it. Look at Israeli defense posture. They are by and large working, openly and covertly, with Sunni Arab powers to provide a check on Iran.
Bret Stephens:
Ilhan Omar Knows Exactly What She Is Doing
"The Minnesota Democrat is bringing Corbynism to the Democratic Party."
"Hard to watch Rep. Scalise demand that Rep. [Ilhan Omar] be removed from House Foreign Affairs w/o wondering if it’s steeped in Islamophobia,” sniffed Rashida Tlaib."
Another leftwing buzzword, "Islamophobia."
I don't think I have a phobia of Islam -- I just don't want some of their crazed adherents to blow up buildings, hijack airplanes, shoot up night clubs, shoot up Army bases, and shoot up people on trains.
Is that so wrong?
Bret Stephens:
"As the criticism of Omar mounts, it becomes that much easier for her to seem like the victim of a smear campaign, rather than the instigator of a smear. The secret of anti-Semitism has always rested, in part, on creating the perception that the anti-Semite is, in fact, the victim of the Jews and their allies. Just which powers-that-be are orchestrating that campaign? Why are they afraid of open debate? And what about all the bigotry on their side?
The goal is not to win the argument, at least not anytime soon. Yet merely by refusing to fold, Omar stands to shift the range of acceptable discussion — the so-called Overton window — sharply in her direction. Ideas once thought of as intellectually uncouth and morally repulsive have suddenly become merely controversial. It’s how anti-Zionism has abruptly become an acceptable point of view in reputable circles. It’s why anti-Semitism is just outside the frame, bidding to get in."
Yep. Shame on KKKamala and the leftwing cabal for their vile responses.
Steyer is not Jewish.
Anybody making that connection misunderstands Jewish lineage.
That is cultural appropriation, straight up.
Ha!
J. Farmer,
Where they occupied when they were held by Syria, Jordan, and Egypt prior to 1967? They were certainly not then a Palestinian state. Yet no one complained that they were "occupied." They were taken in a war those three nations conducted with the VERY EXPLICIT intent of wiping out the Isaeli state and its Jews. When Egypt made even a tepid half-peace with Israel, it gave them back the Sinai. In Gaza Israel took every last Jew out in 2005, so that it in fact is not occupied now, except by Hamas. For thanks, they get rockets and terror tunnels, etc. So frankly, I do not give a rat's ass what the exalted "international community" calls the lands in question. Like most Jews, I would be very happy to turn them all over to their venal and indifferent and fanatic Arab masters - if they'd just leave my people alone.
@Bay Area Guy:
Yeah, on this issue, I'm not a big fan of the UN or the international community or international law. They seem to gang up on Israel all too often.
Whether you are a fan or not, you cannot have economic and diplomatic relations between nations without codified standards, and the Constitution provides that treaties we enter are the supreme law of the land. The reason that Israeli government pushes back so vehemently against "occupied territories" in favor of "disputed territories" is precisely because of the international obligations one has as an occupying power.
The Israel bias in the UN is really contained to the General Assembly, which has no real power anyway. The reason the US is so important to Israel is because the US, as a veto wielding member on the security council, can protect Israel from international pressure to alter its behavior in the territories.
That's been the language of the international community on this issue from the very beginning, including the language of Arthur Goldberg in UN resolution 242.
@Farmer, tough effing shit. You start a war, you lose territory, you have no right to bitch about the territory you lost.
Did Omar have any proper adjudication of her weird marriage/immigration situation?
“Steyer is not Jewish.
Anybody making that connection misunderstands Jewish lineage.
That is cultural appropriation, straight up.
Ha!”
“Thomas Fahr Steyer (born June 27, 1957) is an American billionaire hedge fund manager, philanthropist, environmentalist, liberal ... His father was Jewish and his mother was Episcopalian.”
Steyer IS half Jewish. You can prattle about Jewish lineage all you want, doesn’t mean he’s not genetically Jewish. Tell any modern person who is half Jewish they aren’t Jewish because their mother wasn’t a Jew and they will laugh at you.
I don't know who to believe.
The Americans who love Israel - or the Americans who love Israel even more.
Can't we all just agree that Israel is the best country ever, ever. And that whatever they do, is great? I mean, all of us who are NOT antisemitic.
Quite easy to appreciate RE: stand with Israel
The idea is you stand with Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state.
Or, do you support the right of Israel's neighbors to kill them, from the river to the sea?
I support every person's right to self defense.
This is an easy choice as a philosophical matter.
Shooting rockets, kidnapping children, knifing old ladies, and the rest is offense that I do not support.
And complaining when you lose wars that you started that the winners were mean does not move me to support you.
@Jon Burack:
J. Farmer,
Where they occupied when they were held by Syria, Jordan, and Egypt prior to 1967?
After 1948, Jordan annexed the West Bank, though this annexation was never recognized by the international community, and the Arab powers at best tolerated this as a temporary solution. However, the Palestinians in the West Bank were naturalized and granted Jordanian citizenship, which lasted until the Jordanian disengagement in the late 1980s. That is not the same as the current legal status of the territories, in which Israel agrees that the territories are not part of the State of Israel but nonetheless administers them as "disputed territories," particularly against an unwilling population.
They were taken in a war those three nations conducted with the VERY EXPLICIT intent of wiping out the Isaeli state and its Jews.
That is a completely warped understanding of the Six Day War and the issues that were at stake in that conflict. At no time was there an intent, explicit or otherwise, of "wiping out the Israeli state and its Jews."
In Gaza Israel took every last Jew out in 2005, so that it in fact is not occupied now, except by Hamas.
Removing the settlements did not end the occupation. Even after the settlements were dismantled, Israel retained control over Gaza's coast line, air space, and five out of the six of its border crossings. It also maintains responsibility for the Palestinian Birth Registry in Gaza.
So frankly, I do not give a rat's ass what the exalted "international community" calls the lands in question.
Then you are essentially saying that Israel should abrogate its responsibilities under the international accords it has agreed to abide by. Fine. But then don't complain if you get international push back.
I think the House should pass another resolution that simply says:
"Charlottesville!"
We will get the point.
BAG,
If Inga were in charge, it would be
"But Truuuuuuummmmpppp!"
@Big Mike:
@Farmer, tough effing shit. You start a war, you lose territory, you have no right to bitch about the territory you lost.
Please turn off the light and let the grown ups talk, honey. You are ridiculously misunderstanding the nature of the conflict. That's not even the Israeli positions, but I'm sure Israelis always get a kick out of Americans trying to be more Israeli than the Israelis. Israel does not accept that as its territory, because if Israel had sovereignty over that territory, its inhabitants would become citizens. The inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaze were not the source of the 67 war, and Israel captured the territory in an offensive strike that it describe as "preemptive" in nature though Israel was not facing any eminent attacks at the time of the launch, though of course that is not to say they did not fear being attacked some time in the near future and thus thought it most prudent to strike first. In any event, to say "you start a war, you lose territory," is only to reveal how shallow your knowledge of the events really is.
Steyer IS half Jewish. You can prattle about Jewish lineage all you want, doesn’t mean he’s not genetically Jewish. Tell any modern person who is half Jewish they aren’t Jewish because their mother wasn’t a Jew and they will laugh at you.
3/7/19, 6:29 PM
He is not Jewish by Jewish standards. If he wanted to emigrate to Israel he would have to convert to Judaism just like any other gentile.
He is Jewish by Nazi standards. And yours.
@exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil:
He is Jewish by Nazi standards. And yours.
And 23 and Me
I know someone to went to school with him, world class jackass.
https://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Laurie-Cardoza-Moore-claims-Ilhan-Omar-may-have-ties-to-Muslim-Brotherhood-582728
With respect to Charlottesville, so that I am not condemned as insensitive:
1. I'm glad Fields got indicted and convicted for plowing into the crowd. Justice was served.
2. Fields was definitely a confused weird asshole. But he was a loser, not a leader or representative of any movement.
3. I feel bad for Heyer.
4. But the entire confrontation over the removal of the Robert E. Lee statue was orchestrated by the local authorities and Antifa crowd. And when you seek a mass confrontation, unfortunately, certain of the worst elements do stupid shit (like Fields).
He is Jewish by Nazi standards. And yours.
And 23 and Me
3/7/19, 6:51 PM
23 and Me doesn't determine the Israeli Law of Return. The Jewish definition of who is a Jew has been in effect for thousands of years. It's pretty arrogant of non-Jews to define the membership of a club you don't belong to.
You start a war, you lose territory, you have no right to bitch about the territory you lost.
That's what Hitler said to France.
What this is really about:
https://mobile.twitter.com/HeshmatAlavi/status/1103708120721883136
.I think the House should pass another resolution that simply says:
"Charlottesville!"
Also, one entitled: Israel uber alles. And another entitled "Hey, Big Spender"
rcocean said...
You start a war, you lose territory, you have no right to bitch about the territory you lost.
That's what Hitler said to France.
3/7/19, 6:57 PM
Remind me again, who was the aggressor in WWII?
And who started the 6 Day War?
@exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil:
23 and Me doesn't determine the Israeli Law of Return. The Jewish definition of who is a Jew has been in effect for thousands of years. It's pretty arrogant of non-Jews to define the membership of a club you don't belong to.
Of course there is a difference between membership in a religious tribe and membership in an ethnicity, which is at lease partly based in common ancestry.
@exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil:
And who started the 6 Day War?
Israel
Charlottesville was a kill-zone setup by Antifa that aborted one of its own. It was a remarkable display of diversity or color judgment (e.g. color supremacism), and forced error.
It seems to me that most American that like America also like Israel. It's the holy land, the only real parliamentary democracy in a tough neighborhood, the only place in the middle east where all three religions of the book have real freedom of religion, etc. A whole lot of other Americans that don't like America also don't like Israel. [Plus those that think yet differently or don't give a damn.]
I'm with the Americans who like both countries. Fuck the Democrats.
Remind me again, who was the aggressor in WWII?
France declared War on Germany in 1939. So, the statement stands.
As a 100 percent American, I have no dog in the fight between 20th Century European powers - I'm just stating the facts. Which of course, will result in me being called a Hitler lover in 3...2...1
Tell any modern person who is half Jewish they aren’t Jewish because their mother wasn’t a Jew and they will laugh at you.
Bullshit. Most people with non-Jewish mothers understand full well that Jewish law doesn't consider them Jewish. Who gives a flying f*** what the Nazis thought? Steyer has been an Episcopalian, and only became "Jewish" when it was convenient to the media.
“23 and Me doesn't determine the Israeli Law of Return. The Jewish definition of who is a Jew has been in effect for thousands of years. It's pretty arrogant of non-Jews to define the membership of a club you don't belong to.”- dumbass
“Of course there is a difference between membership in a religious tribe and membership in an ethnicity, which is at lease partly based in common ancestry.”-Farmer
Anti science non Jewish woman wants to tell people with half Jewish DNA that they are not Jewish.
The abject stupidity.
The British and French were waging a "preventive war" against Hitler in 1939. They really didn't give a damn about Poland, they just thought if they went to war in Sept 1939, Hitler and Germany would be destroyed.
You can argue, quite persuasively, that Britain and France were correct - that war with Nazi Germany was inevitable. But that doesn't obviate the fact that England and France turned the German attack on Poland into WW 2. After all, if they cared so much about Poland, why didn't they declare war on Stalin?
“Most people with non-Jewish mothers understand full well that Jewish law doesn't consider them Jewish.”
Jewish Law doesn’t erase Jewish DNA. You don’t speak for most people with non Jewish mothers and Jewish fathers.
And who started the 6 Day War?
Israel
Objectively false. Bullshit. Egypt blockaded Israel, which was an act of war. They expelled the the UN peacekeepers from the Sinai and amassed troops at Israel's border. Only an idiot like Farmer would think that such actions were not acts of war.
@Farmer (7:01): bullcrap.
Jewish Law doesn’t erase Jewish DNA
What the f*** are you talking about? Only the likes of Hitler thought there was such a thing as "Jewish DNA." Jews get to decide on their membership rules, not fools like you.
“I'm with the Americans who like both countries.”
Oh but but but what about America First!? Don’t you people realize you sound like Omar when you yell America First! That’s what she was saying. She was complaining that the Jewish Lobby was too influential and then she yelled “America First”!
Blogger J. Farmer said...
@exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil:
And who started the 6 Day War?
Israel
Disappointing but not surprising. I read "American Conservative," too.
@Big Mike:
@Farmer (7:01): bullcrap.
King of snappy comebacks strikes again!
I like how Omar's antisemitism and Jew hate has been swept under the rug and now the conversation is everything but.
@James K:
Only the likes of Hitler thought there was such a thing as "Jewish DNA.
A genome-wide genetic signature of Jewish ancestry perfectly separates individuals with and without full Jewish ancestry in a large random sample of European Americans
You expected something different, Pelosi put her on the foreign relations committee
“What the f*** are you talking about? Only the likes of Hitler thought there was such a thing as "Jewish DNA." Jews get to decide on their membership rules, not fools like you.”
Are you stupid? You never heard of Ashkenazi Jews, 23 and Me, DNA testing? Never heard of certain genetic diseases common in those with Jewish ancestry?
The Uniqueness of Ashkenazi Jewish Ancestry
@Michael K:
Disappointing but not surprising. I read "American Conservative," too.
That Israel started the war is not even in question. The historical debate is over whether it was justified in starting the war. That is the more complex question. The official casus belli cited by the Israelis was the closing of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping.
Common genetic threads link thousands of years of Jewish ancestry
"But -- 'if it steps up work on its nuclear program and violates the 2015 deal with the West, according to a recent Israeli intelligence assessment ... it would have enough fissionable material within a year.'"
Shades of Saddam Hussein's imminent smoking gun in the shape of a mushroom cloud!
@exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil:He is Jewish by Nazi standards. And yours.
Farmer: And 23 and Me
I think you're both wrong: 23andMe doesn't define who is a Jew, and
The first antisemitic law was promulgated with no clear definition of a Jew.[39] Finally, the criterion was set at three or four Jewish grandparents; two or one rendered a person a Mischling.[40]
To put some teeth into the next House Resolution, the Dems are gonna pass a strongly worded statement condemning Hitler and Slavery.
Ben Shapiro: Why Jews Vote Leftist
Money quote from Ben.
"Most Jews don't care about Judaism or Israel. They care about secular leftism. Which is their actual religion."
Only the likes of Hitler thought there was such a thing as "Jewish DNA."
Hitler had never heard of DNA, Jewish or otherwise.
But these Jews have heard of Jewish DNA -
The truth is that the Jewish people is not just a fictional construction, but a genetic reality.
Can a DNA Test Determine Jewish Status?
Jewish DNA Speaks
@Fernandistein:
I think you're both wrong: 23andMe doesn't define who is a Jew
As far as membership in a religious tribe, you're right. Tribes are perfectly free to set their own standards of admission. But there is also an ethnic component to being a Jew that is grounded in intermarriage and common ancestry. I don't think that nearly 25% of Ashkenazi Jews suffers a genetic disorder due to lax admissions standards.
Leaving the Left
Inga...Allie Oop said...
“Most people with non-Jewish mothers understand full well that Jewish law doesn't consider them Jewish.”
Jewish Law doesn’t erase Jewish DNA. You don’t speak for most people with non Jewish mothers and Jewish fathers.
Rabbinic Judaism determines the validity of jewish heritege through the mother. Only the mother of a child can be realiably determined. It would help if you knew anything about the religion before you bloviate.
RCC have Devil's Advocate for their Canonization Rituals.
It could turn weird when the D A becomes the Saint
“Rabbinic Judaism determines the validity of jewish heritege through the mother. Only the mother of a child can be realiably determined. It would help if you knew anything about the religion before you bloviate.”
I”m not talking about Judaism. I’m speaking about genetic Jewish ancestry which exists apart from Judaism. You people sound absolutely ignorant.
The collective left are the "Oppression Olympics."
That Israel started the war is not even in question.
Bullcrap. Maybe in the universe you inhabit. Out in the real world the aggressors were the Arab allies.
Inga: "Don’t you people realize you sound like Omar when you yell America First!"
And there it is. The old lefty switcheroo where out of nowhere republicans/conservatives are assigned the the transgressions of leftiies.
The question was asked earlier today how long it would take for lefties to blame this or transfer this conservatives....
...the answer? About 8 hours.
As far as membership in a religious tribe, you're right.
I'm not claiming that genetics isn't part of Jewishness, just that 23andme doesn't say anything like: "You're a Jew if you have more than so-and-so percentage of such-and-such DNA, and not a Jew otherwise".
@Fernandistein:
I'm not claiming that genetics isn't part of Jewishness, just that 23andme doesn't say anything like: "You're a Jew if you have more than so-and-so percentage of such-and-such DNA, and not a Jew otherwise".
Agree.
Inga...Allie Oop said...
“Rabbinic Judaism determines the validity of jewish heritege through the mother. Only the mother of a child can be realiably determined. It would help if you knew anything about the religion before you bloviate.”
I”m not talking about Judaism. I’m speaking about genetic Jewish ancestry which exists apart from Judaism. You people sound absolutely ignorant.
Are you telling me, that I, an actual jew, have no idea what a jew is? That is the height of lunacy. You are completely deranged. "Meshuggeneh", as they say in Yiddish.
“I'm not claiming that genetics isn't part of Jewishness, just that 23andme doesn't say anything like: "You're a Jew if you have more than so-and-so percentage of such-and-such DNA, and not a Jew otherwise".
Agree”
A consensus at last!
@Big Mike:
Bullcrap. Maybe in the universe you inhabit. Out in the real world the aggressors were the Arab allies.
Read Guy Laron's The Six Day War: The Breaking of the Middle East. The geopolitics over the outbreak of the Six Day War is one of the most studied conflicts of the 20th century.
“Are you telling me, that I, an actual jew, have no idea what a jew is? That is the height of lunacy. You are completely deranged. "Meshuggeneh", as they say in Yiddish.”
I’d say you’re narish.
J. Farmer, the biggest failure of Israeli intelligence was being unable to convince the politicians that the Syrians and Egyptians would attack in 1973. Mobilizing for war is very disrtuptive of the Israeli economy, as they saw in 1967, and political leadership was too certain that both nations knew they couldn't prevail. So intead of launching another pre-emptive attack, they waited, and only the 2 valiant Isareli brigades in the Golan prevented the Syrians from forcing the Jordan and threatening Israel's annihilation.
Imagine the doctrine of defense suggested by J Farmer and rcocean:
If you reasonably believe the other aide is imminently going to attack, you must wait until the first punch.
That is not the law of defense.
If I see a group of Althouse commenters on my front porch with weapons, you had all better fucking duck.
@Farmer, I could not possibly care less who, or how many, idiots you can point to that share your delusions. I was around back then, and I recall who did what to whom. You are trying to tell me that Israel, listening to the Arab allies announce how they were going to slaughter Israelis, then watching the Arabs move troops to Israel’s border, also had to wait for them to attack? You’re a fool.
Israeli achieved tactical surprise in 1967. In 1973, the Arab armies did. The difference between the two wars comes mainly down to that alone.
Strassel:
So just to be clear: A Somali-American Democrat engages in repeated anti-Semitism, and Democrats pass a resolution that condemns "white supremacists" (and gets in a reference to Charlottesville).
"Genetic Jewish ancestry" simply is a way of saying that someone who may or may not be Jewish has had some actual Jews among their ancestors. It doesn't make them Jewish, any more than someone who has had some coal miners among their ancestors makes them a coal miner. Get a grip.
Yeah, Israel started an offensive war with multiple neighbor states because that's where the odds laid.
The smaller country always does that against its larger neighbors.
Blogger J. Farmer said...
The official casus belli cited by the Israelis was the closing of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping.
Blockades have been recognized as acts of war by the international community for centuries. Egypt started the war in 22 May 1967 by blockading the straits to ships destined for Israel. That's indisputable history.
“Genetic Jewish ancestry" simply is a way of saying that someone who may or may not be Jewish has had some actual Jews among their ancestors. It doesn't make them Jewish, any more than someone who has had some coal miners among their ancestors makes them a coal miner. Get a grip.”
I’m sorry you don’t understand science or genetics. Inheriting black lung is impossible, inheriting Tay Sachs isn’t.
Hilarious. Democrats have a discerning ear that can hear conservative "dog whistles" for racism and anti-semitism but can't hear an out and proud anti-semite spreading hatred. Its almost like they don't believe a word they are saying and it's all about power.
To be completely fair, as is my wont, to J Farmer:
I don't believe he is anti-Semitic, per se. I believe he thinks US foreign policy is overly sympathetic to Israeli issues and he believes that is unwise. Therefore, if the US were perceived by J Farmer to be overly solicitous of Indonesian interests, he would disfavor that outcome. It is a respectable position. I believe it is a misconceived position.
Differently as to Royal ass Inga:
I don't believe anything she types. But I don't believe her anti-Semitic. She is an any port in the storm partisan Democrat. She has no core beliefs.
Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, and AOC are anti-Semites.
The perceived common cause with J Farmer is misplaced. His is a mixture of Smug and over-commitment.
Royal ass Inga is in common cause because of political identification. She is a useful idiot.
Judge for yourselves.
@Big Mike:
@Farmer, I could not possibly care less who, or how many, idiots you can point to that share your delusions. I was around back then, and I recall who did what to whom.
Well in case your memory has faltered at all in the last 52 years, you do not know something by being "around back then." Which Israeli or American or Soviet archival data did you have access "back then?" A lot of the Israeli material has only recently been declassified and available for review. Perhaps you can tell us what you remember about skirmishes between Syria and Israel in the mid-1960s. After all, you were "around back then." So you can't actually point to a single empirical source about the Six Day War but seemingly learned it as a matter of faith through osmosis. Got it. Speaking of fools.
If you actually care to try to learn something about the conflict, other than what you unalterably determined to be true 52 years ago, you can review a lot of the primary source record here and here.
Gk1,
Indeed.
What a generalized horseshit statement of nothing from people who stand for nothing. They might as well have thrown in that they are against all beheadings, no matter who commits them, even though there is only one group of people who have seen fit to do this since the 5th century. But let's hold everyone accountable for it.
Omar is a POS. The Democrat Party is a POS. There is nothing liberals touch that is not destroyed.
@Farmer, you are ineducable. I know what was in the newspapers and on TV, and fifty years ago they actually, you know, gave us news.
Birkel:
Imagine the doctrine of defense suggested by J Farmer and rcocean:
If you reasonably believe the other aide is imminently going to attack, you must wait until the first punch.
No, that isn't what I said, but I'm not surprised you cannot reproduce my arguments faithfully. What I wrote was that, "That Israel started the war is not even in question. The historical debate is over whether it was justified in starting the war. That is the more complex question." I don't happen to have an opinion on the justification, but it is not something I feel I know enough about to have a confident opinion one way or the other.
Guy Laron of the Woody Woo Center?
A Leftist through and through.
I would have to read a lot to see how Marxist he is.
At a guess: a lot.
Omar is a brother-marrying POS.
#Temujin, FIFY.
White people hardest hit.
@Big Mike:
@Farmer, you are ineducable. I know what was in the newspapers and on TV, and fifty years ago they actually, you know, gave us news.
Right. The news media was never misinforming people in the 1960s.
Heather Heyer was killed. Was she one of the good people Trump was talking about?
I don't happen to have an opinion on the justification, but it is not something I feel I know enough about to have a confident opinion one way or the other.
@Farmer, yes you do. Are you lying to us, or to yourself?
@Farmer, not like they do today.
Birkel @ 8:31 - yep.
“I don't believe anything she types. But I don't believe her anti-Semitic. She is an any port in the storm partisan Democrat. She has no core beliefs.”
In real life, not your twisted fever swamp mentality, your “belief” in me or what I say doesn’t determine the truth of what I say. It’s merely the opinion of a person who doesn’t fire on all four cylinders.
In CO - the democrats are morphing into the Taliban.
@Big Mike:
@Farmer, you are ineducable.
Oh, I am "ineducable." Just a tiny thought experiment. I recommended a book to you that was published just within the last few years by a senior lecturer in international relations at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and I gave you a link to two sites of archival records on the conflict. But you dismiss all that and claim to know what happened because you heard it on the news 52 years ago. Which of those positions sounds like the more "ineducable" to you?
J Farmer,
I was polite with the word "suggested" because I believe you have made determinations about who was the aggressor.
Had Poland attacked Germany when Germans gathered at Poland's border, I would support their self defense.
Insert Soviets for Germans in the prior sentence and the result is the same.
Gather a bunch of friends with weapons on my front porch and take your fucking chances.
I will NOT give you "fair" warning.
“No, that isn't what I said, but I'm not surprised you cannot reproduce my arguments faithfully.”
That would be almost impossible for him to do. His narrative is more important.
Correct Royal ass Inga, my brain is a fully operational 12 cylinder thrill ride.
My brain farts bigger than your brain.
So far, 2019 has been pretty lit for Democrats:
• David Duke & the Nation of Islam both came out to support the rhetoric of Rep. Ilhan Omar
• House Dems are unable to put together a simple resolution condemning antisemitism
• Ralph Northam is still Governor of Virginia
“Correct Royal ass Inga, my brain is a fully operational 12 cylinder thrill ride.
My brain farts bigger than your brain.”
When you speak, all I hear is sputter sputter sputter.
J Farmer,
I will thank you not to attribute other's quotes to me.
@Farmer, are you saying that the Arab states did not move troops to the Israeli border? Are you saying that those Arab states were not on a war footing? Are you saying that Israel did not warn Egypt that closing the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping would be a casus belli? Are you saying that Egypt did not, in fact, attempt to close those straits?
Small brains have that problem.
Upgrades are damned nigh impossible.
@Gospace:
Egypt started the war in 22 May 1967 by blockading the straits to ships destined for Israel. That's indisputable history.
No history of the conflict using that date as the start of the war. War was not imminent in early June 1967, and even in Michael Oren's 1967, which is very sympathetic to the Israeli side, he reports that Israeli and US intelligence considered Egyptian troop movements to be primarily defensive, rather than offensive, in nature. The point of of launching a surprise attack on Egypt was to prevent the Egyptians from coming to the aid of Syria, who was Egypt's primary target in the conflict.
“Small brains have that problem.
Upgrades are damned nigh impossible.”
Sorry that your upgrade failed. Better luck next time.
@Big Mike:
@Farmer, yes you do. Are you lying to us, or to yourself?
As I think you are well aware, I have no problem giving my opinion on a matter and backing it up. If I don't have a reliable opinion, I withhold judgment. Whether or not Israel was justified in launching the preemptive strike in 1967 is a complicated question, and it remains debated by serious Israeli historians and scholars to this day.
The freak show is laughing at you
J Farmer has decidedly more principle than do you, Royal ass Inga.
@Birkel:
J Farmer,
I will thank you not to attribute other's quotes to me.
Apologies. These long threads can sometimes be easy to lose track of. Deleted and corrected.
“J Farmer has decidedly more principle than do you, Royal ass Inga.”
And infinitely more than you who has none.
It is always good to know that the Democrats feel free to hate anyone and everyone while being opposed to the idea of hate.
@Big Mike:
@Farmer, are you saying that the Arab states did not move troops to the Israeli border? Are you saying that those Arab states were not on a war footing? Are you saying that Israel did not warn Egypt that closing the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping would be a casus belli? Are you saying that Egypt did not, in fact, attempt to close those straits?
There had been tensions and skirmishes for several years before the 1967 war. Israel had been preparing to launch an attack and was looking for a pretext. Even before the war started, Israel was expecting a knockout victory within a few days. US intelligence was only slightly less optimistic. Nasser's decision to close the Strait was a blunder, but it did not make war inevitably. And the popular notion that Israel launched a preemptive strike to stop an imminent attack is simply not supported by the historical record, regardless of what you might have caught on the 6 o'clock news in 1967.
What a depressing day. Anti-Semitism is now rooted in the Democratic Party. Omar, Tlaib, etc. embarrassed Pelosi and enjoyed a good laugh during the vote (they won and spiked the ball at Pelosi's feet). Democratic Presidential candidates cowardly support Omar as the victim of the Jews -- a classic anti-Semitic trope. Omar should feel emboldened -- when she yaps about international bankers, cosmopolitanism, and final solutions we will know the surrender is unconditional (I doubt that she, Tlaib, AOC and the like have any idea about the origins or meaning of those words).
This should come back to bite Democrats very hard but remain skeptical that the GOP is competent enough to do anything about it.
I suspect the way J Farmer has reacted to my request for proper attribution will carry more proverbial weight with other readers than will the excrement Royal ass Inga slings.
Wouldn't it be a shame for Royal ass Inga to suffer further reputational damage by attacking a commenter in a conversation in which she was not involved. #TrulySad
Inga: "on another thread Meade accused his fellow Americans of - "
You have the reading comprehension of a potatoe. So you won't understand if we roll our eyes one more time at your dishonesty.
Meade was talking about hypenated Americans.
Inga: "My daughter calls herself Jewish American"
No. She doesn't. Because your "daughters" don't exist. You never talk about in casual social threads when normal people talk about what their real families are up to. Instead, you pull them out of your ass when you need a prop to lend authority to whatever argument you are making af the time: the nurse-daughter for Obamacare, the AirForce-daughter against Iraq, the Jewish-Daughter to attack Meade. And that's leaving out 6 years I missed while I was away from this blog.
For someone with such a large family, you and your sockpuppet accounts sure do spend a lot of time yelling at strangers on the internet. So it's unlikely you are mother to anything but 17 cats.
.
"Just because one supports another country or is proud of their heritage does NOT make them less American."
It does in your case. Your side uses hyphenated Americans for Identity Politics, dividing Americans by race sex and class. To pit against each other. It's tribal and anti-American. You are hiding behind the American flag as you try to rip it up.
Well, Northam, et al issues now set precedent that no one from either party have to step down for past racial or sexual transgressions.
It's all over. Stay in office! Congratulations!
cronus titan, please allow me this slight correction:
"What a depressing day. Anti-Semitism is now rooted firmly in the modern day Democratic Party. Omar, Tlaib, etc. embarrassed Pelosi and enjoyed a good laugh during the vote (they won and spiked the ball at Pelosi's feet)."
The Democratics historically supported anti-Semitism within the KKK.
The Althouse Blog has always had its crazies, but since Trump they’ve taken over the asylum.
One assumes that comment is Royal ass Inga's attempt to rehabilitate the anti-Semitism, anti-Popery, and racism of Democratic KKK.
Any port in a storm!
And the popular notion that Israel launched a preemptive strike to stop an imminent attack is simply not supported by the historical record, regardless of what you might have caught on the 6 o'clock news in 1967.
Depends on what you mean by "historical record." If you asked any Jew in Israel or any Arab in Egypt or Jordan or Syria or Iraq at the time they'd have told you that an attack was imminent.
(eaglebeak)
Over 90% of Orthodox Jews vote Republican, according to Rabbi Dov Fischer.
THis debacle also explains why the Israelis are the way they are. Knuckleheads still trot out tropes about the Arab victims in 1967, as if mobilizing armies to attack Israel never happened -- instead they spread garbage about Israel waking up one morning to acquire territory. That's laughable but people really believe it (then again, a lot of people think ELvis is still alive).
Israel know there are people who would gleefully see them exterminated as a population and country, and explains why they take decisive and in some instance disproportionate, accountability. The US was a beacon of support and enlightenment. No more. A major US party has joined the ranks of the UN, European socialist parties, and Islamic governments in committing to anti-Semitism. And good people in the Democratic Party said nothing, but cowered before the mob.
So you have, Inga. So you have.
How racist was Woody Woo?
And the citation offered by J Farmer worker at Woody Woo Center.
Surprise!
Molly - that just means they should be rounded up and murdered.
And good people in the Democratic Party said nothing, but cowered before the mob.
There are no good people left in the Democrat Party. The go along with the mob and thus are part of the mob.
@Michael K:
Disappointing but not surprising. I read "American Conservative," too.
That Israel started the war is not even in question. The historical debate is over whether it was justified in starting the war. That is the more complex question. The official casus belli cited by the Israelis was the closing of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping.
Nasser ordered the UN "peacekeepers out of Sinai and closed the straits announcing that he was going to destroy Israel. The Israeli ∂destroyed the Egyptian air forces an hour before the the Egyptians were to destroy Israel's
I like Pat Buchanan but do not like his anti-israeli and marginally anti-Semitic tone.
I had sworn off trying to debate you but weakened this once,
“Over 90% of Orthodox Jews vote Republican, according to Rabbi Dov Fischer.”
78% of Jewish Americans voted for Obama.
https://m.jpost.com/International/Exit-polls-78-percent-of-Jews-voted-for-Obama
I suppose I should also note here that this is more or less the end of Nancy Pelosi. Her only skill set was keeping her caucus in line, a task she was extremely good at. She just got rolled.
@Michael K., I thought I recalled Nasser ordering the Peacekeepers out of the Sinai, but wasn't sure and couldn't quickly confirm. One might think that ordering UN Peacekeepers away from an area is counter-indicative that you propose to keep the peace. Unless you are Farmer.
One wonders:
When the Israelis started bombing their multiple targets, why were they able to destroy so much so quickly?
Was it because of some wonderful Jewish trickeration?
Or was it because all those targets happily amassed, as if for some offensive purpose?
Do tell, J Farmer.
J Farmer:
No history of that war has to use that date as the start of the war. But it was. Under well recognized for centuries that blockade was an act of of war, and whether any other hostilities we're going on at that time is immaterial. A response to an act of war should be planned and effective. Israel's response was planned and effective. Eqypt and Israel were in a legally recognized state of war as soon as the blockade was announced. Egypt obviously didn't expect Israel to actually do something. They were wrong.
The war began with the blockade which established a formal state of war between Egypt and Israel. Not the first war where the real action started after the formal start of the war.
The attack in Fort Sumter is considered the start of the Civil War. Arguably, the date of the first state succession vote, 20 Dec 1860, could be used. It was about two months after Fort Sumter that the first significant battle took place.
"Sounds like somebody has a pretty shaky deed to the property and is a bit insecure or defensive about his chances in the neighborhood...
Let the Law decide. Less innocents are killed that way."
It was a metaphor for the Israeli war. Point being that if you wait to defend yourself AFTER your enemy has mobilized his forces and set them in strategicly advatageous positions and allow them to strike the first blow, its usually too late.
"Let the law decide"
So Israel should have appealed to the United Nations? Other nations have done so, how did that work out for them?
I don't understand your point. It's understood that law enforcement has no duty to protect you, and are only good for drawing chalk around your cooling corpse.
In the real world, the Marine Corps teaches to respond to threats PRE-EMPTIVELY and with disproportionate fotce. They have more experience with this issue than you do. In my own experience, the people who oppose pre-emptive defense tend to be rooting for the bad guys anyway.
And the War of Jenkins Ear started long after it was forcibly removed by the Spanish.
AOC is now fundraising base on her anti-Semitism.
I appreciate your understanding my point, Fen.
@Big Mike:
Depends on what you mean by "historical record." If you asked any Jew in Israel or any Arab in Egypt or Jordan or Syria or Iraq at the time they'd have told you that an attack was imminent.
What is your source for this? How can you possible claim to know what "any Jews in Israel or any Arab in Egypt or Jordan or Syria or Iraq" would say they thought about the time?
@cronus titan:
s about the Arab victims in 1967, as if mobilizing armies to attack Israel never happened -- instead they spread garbage about Israel waking up one morning to acquire territory.
No one here has made that argument. Stop attacking straw men.
And good people in the Democratic Party said nothing, but cowered before the mob.
What are you talking about? The Democratic establishment has been tripping over itself to condemn the remarks.
Nasser ordered the UN "peacekeepers out of Sinai and closed the straits announcing that he was going to destroy Israel. The Israeli ∂destroyed the Egyptian air forces an hour before the the Egyptians were to destroy Israel's
Please provide a source for your "an hour before the Egyptians were to destroy Israel's."
Michael Oren himself wrote in Six Days of War that "By all reports Israel received from the Americans, and according to its own intelligence, Nasser had no interest in bloodshed."
"I appreciate your understanding my point, Fen."
Thanks, I hope I did it justice.
Inga...Allie Oop said...
"The Althouse Blog has always had its crazies, but since Trump they’ve taken over the asylum."
I presume that Inga is speaking about herself.
@Big Mike:
@Michael K., I thought I recalled Nasser ordering the Peacekeepers out of the Sinai, but wasn't sure and couldn't quickly confirm. One might think that ordering UN Peacekeepers away from an area is counter-indicative that you propose to keep the peace. Unless you are Farmer.
The responses by Nasser were based on false information provided to him by the USSR the claimed the Israelis were amassing on the Syrian border. This is a well known component of the history but probably something you didn't happen to overhear on the evening news 52 years ago.
“I presume that Inga is speaking about herself.”
You presume wrongly.
Yes, let's trust US intelligence. They have such a history of foresight.
Now, why were all those planes, weapons, and soldiers so conveniently located on Israel's border?
@Gospace:
No history of that war has to use that date as the start of the war. But it was. Under well recognized for centuries that blockade was an act of of war, and whether any other hostilities we're going on at that time is immaterial.
Israel currently maintains a blockade of Gaza. Does that give the Gazans right to attack Israelis has legitimate combatants in an act of war?
@Birkel:
Yes, let's trust US intelligence. They have such a history of foresight.
You must've skipped over the "and according to its own intelligence." The Israelis did not consider Egypt a significant threat and believed that they could (and indeed they did) knock them out in short drift. Israel's primary concern in the Six Day War were its ongoing issues with Syria.
How dare Soviets scaring Egyptians count in favor of Egyptians planning to attack Israelis?
After all, scared as they must have been, those Egyptians must have taken some pre-emptive measures in defense.
/sarc
J Farmer loves his fairy tales.
Let's skip over the massed forces of multiple countries.
Frankly, if a million armed Canadians massed on the US border, I would expect 20 million US citizens to amass in defense.
The responses by Nasser were based on false information provided to him by the USSR the claimed the Israelis were amassing on the Syrian border. This is a well known component of the history but probably something you didn't happen to overhear on the evening news 52 years ago.
Depends on what you mean by "well known," doesn't it? A small, highly inbred coterie of historians (in the sense of sharing talking points among themselves and shunning those who challenge the politically correct view) agree that something is well known when it is nothing of the sort. I have a "man in the street's" knowledge of what was going on at the time. I am not interested in second guessing from fifty years later. Israel was justified in what it did and King Hussein was stupid. Jordan paid the price. Too. Bad.
How racist was Woody Woo, J Farmer?
Farmer, Don't be dense. Democratic leaders ceded authority to the mob today. The point of today's resolution was to support Omar and avoid accountability for her anti-Semitic rants. Omar won because Democrats who should know better cowered. Omar and her lunatic supporters are in charge. AOC already sent a fundraiser warning the Israeli lobby and their dirty money are targeting her. They can't help themselves, though I doubt they have any comprehension of the historical forces they are playing with.
"Does that give the Gazans right to attack Israelis has legitimate combatants in an act of war?"
Gaza is currently governed by Hamas.
"The short term goal of Hamas was to liberate Palestine, including modern-day Israel, from Israeli occupation. The long-term aim sought to establish an Islamic state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea."
So I'll ask you to rephrase the question.
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