If you’re in Thailand, for example, try making and flying traditional chula or pakpao kites. Other activities include creating clay sculptures modeled on the local wildlife, or making potpourri from local leaves and flowers. Both activities will help kids get familiar with indigenous animals and plants. Check with your hotel concierge or travel agent, or search TripAdvisor for local arts fairs, craft events for kids, or local artisans that open their shops to visitors eager to learn about the culture, not just shop for souvenirs.All right, clearly the NYT isn't writing for average Americans who are trying to give kids some culture mixed with fun when they have a couple week for vacation. It's writing for the subset of its readers who would travel all the way to Thailand with children, stay at a hotel with a concierge, and then feel it's a good use of time to do crafts (like making little clay elephants) that are easily done at home or in kindergarten class. I agree that's a better use of time than shopping for souvenirs, but maybe the best use of time is not going to Thailand (with children!) in the first place. Why subject children to all the time-consuming burdens of traveling to such distant places? Why take on the burden of managing them and devoting your efforts to making all the expense and effort seem worth it?
Well, the answer lies immediately below that 4th paragraph. I've done a screen shot. Click to enlarge and clarify:
It's an ad for a cruise line, luring you to "More Asia. More Memories" where you can "Experience the wonders of Asia's rich history and vibrant modern cities. All while enjoying the classic style and comfort we're known for...."
There's no serious analysis of whether it's a good idea to take your children to Asia. You're just stuck with inane propaganda: It's "a great way to open your children's eyes to a world beyond their front door." Lots of time on a plane (or a luxury cruise?!) and then making it educational and fun with packaged crafts related to the local flora and fauna? There's no serious inquiry into whether these long trips are good for children in the first place. If they are as good as they need to be to be worth it, than isn't it terrible that only rich kids get to do it? How about leveling the playing field? Take your kids to American cities and national and state parks, and donate the money you save to enriching life for poor children.
Better yet, have your children devote themselves to charitable services to the poor in your own town. That's a greater way to open your children's eyes to a world beyond their front door.
পোস্টগুলি
১২২টি মন্তব্য:
I've taken my children all over the world but not until they are 16 or so. My middle daughter went with us to Salzburg when she was about 6 and that was a mistake. She got jet lag so bad she was bouncing off walls until I got her some Phenergan to calm her down so she could get some sleep.
Teenagers are capable of appreciating things but not the same things the parents do. By the time they are 20, they are usually off on other interests but 18 to 20 is a good age if they still want to do things with parents.
Travel alone. If you want to spend a day with a woman and children, rent them when you get there. Much less hassle and big savings.
Now consider this for most of the news.
I was fortunate to have good geography (and history) classes in elementary school, I think I got a pretty good exposure to culture in those. How many local people in these travel destinations pay any attention to cultural highlights?
In Michigan, for example, we have really high car insurance costs. Medical bills will be paid via your auto insurance even if you don't have medical insurance (if you get in a car accident). They talk about car insurance reform, but the main advertisers on the local news are accident and injury attorneys. No way the editorial boards will push for insurance reform, because they people who keep them in business are kept in business via the people paying high auto insurance bills.
We did travel Asia when my kids were young, but that's because we lived in Asia. You can get a lot of culture traveling to different states in the US, though! Why do people think Asian culture is culture, but going to another state isn't? Drive to mammoth cave and see an amazing sight! Drive to the ocean! See the blue ridge mountains! There's so much to see.
Hahhaha, Bob Boyd! I was going to say, if I were a single man I wouldn't travel alone to Thailand (except for business).
If one is a Master of the Universe then you can take the tykes to Thailand. Long TSLA 4 years ago and now short for the last month.
Depends on the family and the child. My nine year old niece,who lives in Tokyo and travels by subway alone to her school, has traveled to Paris, New York, Hong Kong and Singapore with her parents. She enjoys travel and wants to fly by herself and visit us in Madison where will take her to the zoo among other things. During my salade days of lean earnings, my own children spent their vacations with me camping and kayaking in Wisconsin and had to wait for the study abroad semester in college before they could visit Paris. All these experiences are good, but I have met enough families in my travel abroad to know now is the time to visit before globalism erases even more of our differences.
Still think it would be cool to let kids explore a real castle and/or the ruins of one. Cool enough to be worth the flight.
This summer I was in Cherry, Buffalo and Grant counties Nebraska. It would have been way more fun if I had time to play golf and kayak.
You people must see Nebraska’s Sandhills; especially if you like those activities or biking. Fishing too.
"I was going to say, if I were a single man I wouldn't travel alone to Thailand"
How come?
And I also highly recommend Mammoth Caves...and The Ocean.
If going to Thailand as a family, live like the native pop:
http://the-asian-way.blogspot.com/2010/10/getting-around-in-thailand.html
Do they not look happy?
But prepare for lots of men wearing shorts.
The NYT is trapped in a very special hypocrisy. It reports and editorializes on the evils of inequality in one set of places and produces material like this, intertwined with apparently associated advertising, elsewhere. And then there are the T Magazines about expensive watches. Their greatest inconsistency, however, comes when they flog for the world's second-most environmentally damaging industry (fashion).
"How come?"
Because single men tourists in Asia are often looked upon as sex tourists or pedophiles.
You could also take your kids for a soapy massage or to see the Pussy Magic show and that would certainly be something that they couldn’t see at Mammoth Cave. They would also be helping the poor! In a form.
That same middle daughter has been to China several times, lived a year in Spain, speaks four languages, including Arabic, worked an archeological dig in Ecuador four summers, been to the headwaters of the Amazon, been to Cuba, Argentina and many other places alone or with friends.
She doesn't remember much about Salzburg, though.
that doesn't play as well though over a glass of chardonnay while the nanny has your kid in the park.
Damn, and I'm taking a Holland America cruise (my first) in three weeks. Mine's a more modest affair, though, just Montreal out the St. Lawrence Seaway and then round to Boston. Stops in Quebec City, Cape Breton, Prince Edward Island, Bar Harbor ... and all of it tied together by Mark Steyn, which is why I'm going in the first place.
I imagine that there are children who'd find Steyn (and his assorted guests) deeply educational, but I'm going by myself.
I traveled extensively with my parents and sibs when I was young. If my parents had tried to pull this sort of "expand your mind" crap on us, we would have been so bored. We also would never have looked forward to travel again and resisted going in the future.
You want sulky sour kids? This is how you get sulky sour kids.
Let your kids enjoy themselves. Send them outside...without your constant helicopter parenting. Some mild supervision is really all they need. You don't need to spend every waking moment together.....gross (in my teenage voice)
Dump them at the pool with the other kids. Go hiking, exploring, cruising the touristy places, gasp...even shopping..... and let THEM show you what they are interested in.
I can pretty much guarantee you it isn't in being in an extended vacation school and building clay elephants. Go see a g-d real elephant!
"Travel ads ensure that we'll never get honest articles about travel."
Some would say the same thing about travel posts by Althouse.
What child wouldn't prefer a trip to Disney World?
Jeez, I thought this was going to be an article about how New Yorkers can experience seeing the native people of Michigan.
If you’re in Thailand, for example, try having $100,000 to make your travel arrangements.
If you’re in Thailand, for example, try focusing on not getting Bangkok belly; the children really won't like it.
If you’re in Thailand, for example, try to avoid Nana Plaza; the children really won't like it.
I went to England with my mom when I was in 5th grade and she never forgave me for liking the go-cart track more than some run-down old church.
As a consequence of that childhood depravity, I now enjoy creating clay sculptures modeled on the local wildlife, which is mostly ants, but sometimes I cheat and use pieces of wire for their little legs.
someone said: " You can get a lot of culture traveling to different states in the US, though! Why do people think Asian culture is culture, but going to another state isn't?"
yes BUT! going to another state* increases your carbon footprint; it's the sort of thing deplorables would do!! Traveling around the world on luxury ships with your family actually DECREASES CO2, because of KNOWLEDGE!!
going to another state* I'm Sick Of Eating Hoagies! I Want A Grinder, A Sub, A Foot-long Hero!
jaydub said...
""How come?"
Because single men tourists in Asia are often looked upon as sex tourists or pedophiles."
Have you ever been?
Disclaimer: I've traveled alone throughout SE Asia. I am neither a sex tourist nor a pedophile. I have also been to Mammoth Caves, but I am not a spelunker.
Yup, don’t take children to Asia. And if you’re going to Asia, don’t go to Thailand.
The top high-value attraction for kids ages maybe 12 and up anywhere close might be Kaziranga in Assam. Stay at the Diphlu River Lodge. William and Kate stayed there, so very good. Tigers, elelephants, rhino’s, monkeys, over 400 bird species, guided day safaris from the Lodge, standing in the back of your Jeep, with driver and armed guard. Also do the water safari on the Brahmaputra. One of the best adventure destination in the world suitable for older children. Very very wild, yet safe. Just my opinion.
For you botany buffs, next week I’m going into Namibia from SA on my enduro to see a Welwitschia or two. Lots over 1000 years old with some 2000 years old. They only produce two leaves. Hopefully I’ll see Lithops in flower too.
I've read most of Bill Bryson's books. His insight into other lands is entertaining. However, just downloaded and have been listening to his "The Lost Continent (Travels in Small-Town America). The entire book is dissing middle America. Sending it back to Audible.
If you want to have a laugh, replace Thailand with Indiana or Montana or Alabama in the article then imagine a NYT subscriber is the traveler. Cracks me up at least.
-sw
We did a lot of family outings and traveling by car (and Navy moving) until the middle child went to college and then nothing until my father won a week in a condo in Hilton Head. Mom visited Dad for a couple of weeks in Greece with other wives and in Japan alone before I was 9. We were bummed, but it was the right choice.
World touring with kids is the follow-on to fetal Mozart serenades.
We can't even get accurate descriptions of what it was like to drive across the US before the 70s, if you were black - a trip I made as a child with my foster family.
That would make a GREAT horror movie.
If you’re driving to the Rockies, for example, try stopping by the Cargill plant in Fort Morgan and show your kids where their hamburger comes from. If your lucky they may even let you try out the bolt pistol to kill an animal or two.
(Sponsored by Colorado Department of Tourism).
"car insurance reform"
What kind of "reform"? That's awful vague, like "immigration reform." We just supposed to know?
We can't even get accurate descriptions of what it was like to drive across the US before the 70s, if you were black - a trip I made as a child with my foster family.
This is true and it would have the makings of a horror movie.
I remember in the 1950's and early 60's how completely shocking it was to see the blatant segregation in the South. WE were horrified and it didn't even apply to our family. It wasn't just the South either. Crack might be interested in this Article
The Negro Motorist Green Book (at times styled The Negro Motorist Green-Book or titled The Negro Travelers' Green Book) was an annual guidebook for African-American roadtrippers, commonly referred to simply as the Green Book. It was originated and published by New York City mailman Victor Hugo Green from 1936 to 1966, during the era of Jim Crow laws, when open and often legally prescribed discrimination against non-whites was widespread. Although pervasive racial discrimination and poverty limited black car ownership, the emerging African-American middle class bought automobiles as soon as they could, but faced a variety of dangers and inconveniences along the road, from refusal of food and lodging to arbitrary arrest. In response, Green wrote his guide to services and places relatively friendly to African-Americans, eventually expanding its coverage from the New York area to much of North America, as well as founding a travel agency.
Think about that. How hard, frustrating, demoralizing, depressing, demeaning it was to just try to travel in the US for black families. That you needed a guide to help you find the safe places as in some areas you were truly in danger for your lives by merely traveling.
Phil 314 at 0932,
from the Simpsons, "I'm curious as to how meat gets from the ranch to my stomach." McClure briefly chides Jimmy, saying, "Slow down, Jimmy. You just asked a mouthful." However, McClure immediately begins answering Jimmy's question: "It all starts here, in the high-density feedlot. Then, when the cattle are just right, it's time for them to 'graduate' from Bovine University." A loud klaxon sounds and the cattle begin moving up a conveyor belt into the nearby meat packing plant. McClure says, "Come on, Jimmy, let's take a peek at the killing floor." At this, Jimmy gasps and McClure says, "Don't let the name throw you, Jimmy. It's not really a floor. It's more of a steel grating that allows material to sluice through so it can be collected and exported."
Front door, that's the one where the doorman is stationed. (NYC prog-tard reader's thoughts)
Many years ago we travelled with our then-3-and-6 year old sons to Spain, where my in-laws lived for about 10 years. They had a great time, but the travel itself was an exhausting ordeal, as I recall.
Took my 8 year old to London and Paris when he was 8. Great time and he still remembers it fondly, such as walking back and forth before the Mona Lisa to prove her eyes followed him and imagining torture at the Tower. He also remembers asking me about the Arch de Triomph, and I told him it was a beautiful structure the Germans march under periodically, but don't say anything since it upsets the locals. His mother was less than pleased with me.
And taking a child to Asia is parent ego.
Dust Bunny Queen said....
"Think about that. How hard, frustrating, demoralizing, depressing, demeaning it was to just try to travel in the US for black families. That you needed a guide to help you find the safe places as in some areas you were truly in danger for your lives by merely traveling."
That anyone thinks there were/are no financial repercussions for that - for blacks - that don't reverberate to today, I think, is insane.
Bob Boyd said: "Have you ever been?"
Dozens of times, but I also lived and worked in Asia. BTW, I didn't say you WERE a sex tourist or a pedophile, I said a man traveling alone in Asia (particularly a white man in Southeast Asia or the Philippines) is often LOOKED ON as a sex tourist or a pedophile. That's because a lot of them are - mostly Australians, Germans and Brits in my experience. Cambodia and Thailand have started to crack down on this at immigration points, and the Philippines has as well.
Traveling with little kids is hard. Traveling with big kids, kids old enough to roll small suitcases, is easy.
Why subject children to all the time-consuming burdens of traveling to such distant places?
So you can brag about it to your friends!
"Still think it would be cool to let kids explore a real castle and/or the ruins of one. Cool enough to be worth the flight."
What's the closest thing to "a real castle" in the U.S.?
Hammond Castle?
(In Massachusetts)
There are other things like that.
As for fantasy-inspriring architecture, come to Wisconsin and see The House on the Rock.
You are 100% correct, gracious host. Laughably obvious propaganda---would make a great skit. And so condescending: take the kids to see local artisans who will gladly waste their time answering your progeny's tedious questions and allowing grubby fingers to interfere with their work product.
"I've read most of Bill Bryson's books. His insight into other lands is entertaining. However, just downloaded and have been listening to his "The Lost Continent (Travels in Small-Town America). The entire book is dissing middle America. Sending it back to Audible."
I love Bill Bryson audiobooks because his voice conveys the humor. Unfortunately, that book is not read by him and the attitude is very different and, I agree, annoying.
Get his "Life and Times of the Thunderbolt Kid" about growing up in Des Moines. His love for middle America is very clear -- with him doing the reading.
A young black guy I met in the 90's had been adopted by an older white couple. They'd just been stopped by Lynchburg police to be sure he wasn't a kidnapper, but I don't remember if he said it was a regular occurrence.
@Michelle dulak thompson,
If you would please ask Maggie's advisor advertised to be on the cruise why she didn't hand over the coalmines to the unions/Labor instead of shut them?
"We can't even get accurate descriptions of what it was like to drive across the US before the 70s, if you were black - a trip I made as a child with my foster family."
I wanted to drive to Florida (where my parents and sister lived) in the 70s but was warned off it. Young white New Yorkers, I can tell you, regarded the stretch through Georgia as too risky. I think we were picturing something like the ending of "Easy Rider."
there were/are no financial repercussions for that - for blacks
It didn't stop the Great Migration, not that there wasn't plenty of inequality, hassling, & discrimination in the North or West or on the trip.
"Traveling with little kids is hard. Traveling with big kids, kids old enough to roll small suitcases, is easy."
Yes, if you've raised them to be well-behaved! So you can kick yourself if they're not. Traveling exposes your own shortcomings. You can feel bad about: 1. The general trouble of traveling, 2. The trouble of including children, 3. The worry about what extra things will be worthwhile and fun for them to justify burdening then, 4. The anxiety about your own shortcomings as a parent if your kids turn out not to be "easy" like some other parent has told you her children were, 5. The effort of putting together your story to tell when you get back and people question you about what it was like traveling with children, and you want to maintain their good opinion of you and your own "memories" in the form that you want to recall them....
"I wanted to drive to Florida ... in the 70s but was warned off it."
Odd, we used to drive from the D.C. area down to central Florida about once a year back in the 60's and mid-70's and managed to keep the howling cracker mobs at bay.
Y'all are missing fact staring in your face ...
Isn't Obama product of such travel enrichment?
More of it will diminish his uniquity(!?)
Wasn't Burt Reynolds from SE Georgia?
I sometimes wonder if the Civil War ever really ended for Northeasterners.
jaydub said... I said a man traveling alone in Asia (particularly a white man in Southeast Asia or the Philippines) is often LOOKED ON as a sex tourist or a pedophile. That's because a lot of them are - mostly Australians, Germans and Brits in my experience.
It floors me that the local men don't beat the shit out of these guys. Nothing is more disgusting than seeing them trolling for kids or young hookers. If it was my home turf, I'd hospitalize a few of them.
One of the reasons Thailand is often such a dump. Way too permissive.
AA, I'm curious to hear what you were "warned off of".
See Crack, Ann needs reparations too because she hung out with effeminate long hairs who were scared off of Georgia because of an Iconic movie fantasy. If you imagine it to be true, it is true, just ask your yogurt master meditative spirit guide.
Ralph L said...
"It didn't stop the Great Migration,..."
I have no idea how to address that statement. It seems both ignorant of and callous to what blacks actually did. I mean, so what? Blacks didn't have safety were we were, so we struck out into the unknown - usually stealing away into the night, without telling anyone, even family members - only to find it wasn't safe there either. To America's eternal shame. (Something you can't get whites to admit, today, as they hate on Colin Kaepernick or whoever else is pointing out our differences). That there was no law in the South - for us - didn't stop us. That's true. That there is no law - still - is also true. That doesn't stop us either.
When we'll be respected for that is a open question.
I should talk. I looked like an LAPD recruitment poster from the age of 16, so therefore, enjoyed the freedom of boys being boys.
Howard said...
"See Crack, Ann needs reparations too because she hung out with effeminate long hairs who were scared off of Georgia because of an Iconic movie fantasy. If you imagine it to be true, it is true, just ask your yogurt master meditative spirit guide."
That's cruel - but I'm laughing so hard my sides ache.
Althouse asked: What's the closest thing to "a real castle" in the U.S.?
Well, there's Knapp's Castle in the hills above Santa Barbara. It wasn't a real castle but the ruins look like one. Interesting story behind it. Our daughter goes to school at UCSB and she showed it to us.
Its a long freakin' flight to Thailand. I wouldn't take ANY kid on it. We left Memphis, flew to LA - spent the night. And next Am, flew to Tokyo, and then Flew to Bangkok. Counting staying at the airport to meet connections and get through customs it took 24 hours.
We left our kid at home.
Other than Elephant rides, I can't think of single thing in Thailand, a kid would do, that he couldn't do somewhere closer to the USA.
Caribbean, Mexico, Hawaii, etc. I don't think many kids want to visit Buddhist temples or see the Royal's residence.
"I wanted to drive to Florida (where my parents and sister lived) in the 70s but was warned off it."
LOL. I felt the same as a kid in the late 70s. I'd watch too many TV shows bashing Southerners and movies like "In the Heat of the Night" showing them as awful rednecks.
Imagine my surprise when everyone turned out to be friendly, intelligent, and just plain folks. Once, outside of Atlanta, we stopped at a rural Motel, and the owner went into town and got my dad a six-pack. And when my Dad wanted give some extra $ for his trouble, he wouldn't take it!
Althouse: You're just stuck with inane propaganda: It's "a great way to open your children's eyes to a world beyond their front door."
Like a dream you try to remember but it's gone
Then you try to scream but it only comes out as a yawn
When you try to see the world, beyond your front door
Pinch Me
It's the perfect time of year
Somewhere far away from here
I feel fine enough, I guess
Considering everything's a mess
There's a restaurant down the street
Where hungry people like to eat
I could walk but I'll just drive
It's colder than it looks outside
Like a dream you try to remember but it's gone
(Pinch me) Then you try to scream but it only comes out as a yawn
(I'm still asleep) When you try to see the world, beyond your front door
(Please God) Take your time, is the way I rhyme gonna make you smile
(Tell me) When you realize that a guy my size might take a while
(I'm still asleep) Just to try to figure out what all this is for
It's the perfect time of day
To throw all your cares away
Put the sprinkler on the lawn
And run through with my gym shorts on
Take a drink right from the hose
And change into some dryer clothes
Climb the stairs up to my room
Sleep away the afternoon
Pinch me, pinch me, cause I'm still asleep
Please God tell me that I'm still asleep
On an evening such as this
It's hard to tell if I exist
If I pack the car and leave this town
Who'll notice that I'm not around
I could hide out under there
I just made you say "underwear"
I could leave but I'll just stay
All my stuff's here anyway
The Charley Daniels band had a song about Ann's concerns
uneasy rider
The common road trip in California is from San Francisco to LA (or vice versa) with a stop by Hearst’s Castle for adventure and The Madonna Inn for drinks.
"Althouse asked: What's the closest thing to "a real castle" in the U.S.?"
the ruins of the costal forts would come pretty close.
I want to hire a boat and go out to the dry tortugas and see fort Jefferson
Chicken Little: The Painted Caves in SB are a fun day trip/hike and you could honor Native American culture to asuage your liberal guilt.
rcocean said...
"I'd watch too many TV shows bashing Southerners and movies like "In the Heat of the Night" showing them as awful rednecks."
So, your assumption is, they'd treat blacks the same as they did you? (I can't imagine anyone going to get my dad beer for any amount of money.)
"and The Madonna Inn for drinks."
In the 80s, when I was a young lad, The Madonna Inn was where we stopped for a bathroom break, because they have the best bathrooms. Motion sensing way, way before that became a standard.
Life was simpler in the 80s.
Driving through Georgia was cool to a kid in the ‘60s. My parents took us on a vacation in 1968. My dad avoided the interstate because he wanted us to experience Highway 41. I still remember that Atlanta traffic was a hot mess that summer.
Years later, I hitchhiked from Madison to Gainesville with another guy. That’s something that females just didn’t do. Nowadays, no one does.
I still remember all the Stuckey’s — a chain that never made it North.
In church circles, there's "short term mission trips" which are often working-vacations paid for by others. It's a good experience, and there's not nearly the sheltering isolation of staying in resorts. Builds exposure for kids and adults. That said, the locals would probably be better off getting the $2000 per in cash rather than getting the extra money and the variable construction or puppet show talents of the visitors.
The benefit comes when a person realizes how much they can learn from the people they're meeting, rather than thinking they're a unique specimen of necessary contribution to the poor.
I bought a small Confederate flag in Chattanooga back in 1968. I had it for some time but eventually tossed it or lost it.
There’s a scene in “Muscle Shoals (2013) in which Rick Hall reminisces about how being seen with the likes of Duane Allman was much more risqué than being seen with the many black performers he hosted.
@Crack: I agree, Hearst Castle is worth a visit. I think that’s exactlly the sort of place Freeman Hunt would enjoy.
Of course if Althouse went to Hearst Castle, she’d probably be reminded of Patty Hearst and the SLA and stay far, far, away.
Your anti-travel bias never fails to amuse. But it's your blog, so go nuts.
The Crack Emcee,
I have no idea how to address that statement. It seems both ignorant of and callous to what blacks actually did. I mean, so what? Blacks didn't have safety were we were, so we struck out into the unknown - usually stealing away into the night, without telling anyone, even family members - only to find it wasn't safe there either. To America's eternal shame.
Ah but this is the America that Meghan McCain said was "always great." If she said it, it must be true, yes? We are in the business of believing women's stories, after all.
But never mind that. What puzzles me about the Great Migration is that nearly everyone who undertook it ended up in a large city. I'm not, at all, saying that Blacks ought to have gone for Grosse Pointe or Upper Saddle River; nearly all people of all races cannot afford these places. But there are many other places besides these and the centers of large cities. And the results of the experiment you can see in Detroit, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia.
What puzzles me about the Great Migration is that nearly everyone who undertook it ended up in a large city.
They went where the manufacturing jobs were. Southern blacks probably had enough of farm labor.
Narayanan Subramanian,
If you would please ask Maggie's advisor advertised to be on the cruise why she didn't hand over the coalmines to the unions/Labor instead of shut them?
Hmmm. I don't know who "Maggie's advisor" is, so this might prove difficult. The only guests I'm aware of are Ann McElhinney, Phelim McAleer, Michele Bachmann, and John O'Sullivan. Plus Tal Bachmann (no relation), who is there to sing.
In any case, though, what are you saying? The only difference between shutting down the mines and handing them over (I presume w/o compensation) to the unions or the workers is who gets what money there's left in them. Unless you're assuming that the cynical union/labor contingent would vote to keep them running, injuries and climate change be damned.
M D Thomson, that's where the jobs (and relatives) were. They didn't want more farm labor in Northern winters. Plus they knew how vulnerable they were in isolated small communities.
We expect a full report on the Steyn Cruise and the best Admiral Kristol jokes.
"nearly everyone who undertook it ended up in a large city"
Like tcrosse said, that's where the jobs were. And the networks (such as they were) of other people in the same boat. Much harder for anybody to get a toehold out in a little rural town, unless there's somebody specifically organizing to bring (im)migrants in.
Southern blacks probably had enough of farm labor.
The descendants of the ones who stayed have had enough, too, and moved to town. Tobacco was labor intensive, but agri-chemicals, cancer, and then lawyers killed those jobs.
What puzzles me about the Great Migration is that nearly everyone who undertook it ended up in a large city.
Blacks who migrated from the South to the North, came mostly from rural, agricultural, small towns. The JOBS were in the big cities. Manufacturing jobs which paid well. Much better than farming or menial jobs where they came from. Jobs that offered good pay, skilled occupations. Why migrate to another small agricultural town, trading same for same, when the opportunities seemed to be in the cities.
They also migrated to those places where friends and family before them had gone. Safety in numbers you know. A welcoming group to meet you when you get there.
In addition to jobs and not being in sleepy backwater towns, the North seemed to offer advantages for the children. Schools. And "hopefully" a life without the oppressive prejudices that they and their children could not escape in their current situations.
Witness all of the once proud family homes in Detroit, Chicago. Many of those homes were the hopes and dreams of middle class, working black (and white) families. There were flourishing black neighborhoods with families, and businesses run by black entrepreneurs to cater to their people. The same is true of Italians, Irish, Polish, etc.
Where it all went wrong? Many ideas and theories. Too many to go into and often ....too contentious to discuss. My personal choice is the rise of the Welfare State (Great Society) that while well meaning (isn't it always well meaning) ultimately destroyed the family unit. Black and poor whites as well. We are still reeling from the fallout of those bad decisions.
Ralph L,
Thanks for leaving the nonexistent "p" out of "Thomson"!
Re: Great Migration, I understand the arguments, but they don't convince me. People with agricultural skills don't just say "I'm tired of that; put me on an assembly line where it's warm in the winter." (Frankly, I doubt that weather even factors in much. Look at immigration patterns. People tend to go as far north as they possibly can. Look at the Somali community in Minnesota, or the many Muslim communities in Scandinavia.)
The whole point of the Great Migration is that when it began, Blacks had no "relatives" to speak of outside the South. And for the same reason, they didn't know what "isolated small communities" in the North were like. My own guess (and it is, I hasten to add, only that) is that Blacks would have found a much warmer reception in the small-town North than in big cities. The old adage is "The difference between the South and the North is that in the South they don't mind living next door to Blacks, unless they "get over themselves," whereas in the North they don't care how much power Blacks have, so long as they don't move in next door." You wanna know where all those "racially-restrictive covenants" were enacted? It wasn't the rural North.
@DBQ ... Thanks.
Mentally I'd frame a thought experiment as follows ..
Imagine Free State USA and slave states CSA in 1700's
Migration north to freedom becomes immigration and assimilation.
Assuming free USA keeping borders open!!??
The big reason to vacation in Thailand is to get medical and dental care at 1/9th the cost in the USSA. May as well take the kids along. Maybe India, Brazil, Argentina, Brazil, Costa Rica, Panama, Czech Republic and Hungary would do as well. You can find the prices online, which you can't do for the monopolistic USSA medical care alternatives.
This is precisely the type of article that made me stop subscribing to the NYT. Their image of the typical NYT reader: smart enough to make shit tons of money to spend on fancy vacations but stupid enough to need the NYT to tell them what to do once they get there. The odd juxtaposition of power + stupid is just so very offensive.
Michelle: "People with agricultural skills don't just say "I'm tired of that; put me on an assembly line where it's warm in the winter."
Just one data point from my experience: When I was delivering bread for Flowers Baking Co., they sent me to Atlanta for a weeklong course on selling.
The teacher -- a white man -- talked about his background. He grew up on a tobacco farm. He planted and harvested the leaves. He'd talk about how black his hands got from the nicotine.
He hated the job so much that he got a job delivering bread, which entails getting up at 4 a.m., working your ass off until 3 p.m., going home, and getting up and doing it again. Plus, you go in for a half day on Saturday doing pull-ups (restocking and neatening the shelves).
I worked that job for nine months and had to quit when my back started giving out. On the other hand, it brought my weight down to 180, which I haven't seen since.
Maggie's advisor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_O%27Sullivan_(columnist)
Maybe unions/labor would learn about running a business without other people money!!
But Maggie as conservative was not a long thinking intellectual.
She did keep Reagan from going wobbly.
Thanks for leaving the nonexistent "p" out of "Thomson"!
It was hard work. My g-grandmother's sister Betty Thompson married another Thompson. They used to be thick on the ground here. In my county, almost all the other L's stick an "h" in the middle, so even our friends misspell or mispronounce it.
You can find the prices online, which you can't do for the monopolistic USSA medical care alternatives.
I know some stories about health care in India but you would not believe them, anyway,
@Crack
We stayed in the Madonna Inn and visited the Hearst Castle. Our kids enjoyed both. Around 1996. Both places exceeded my expectations.
Narayanan Subramanian,
Oh, that Maggie. Fair enough, I suppose, though what John O'Sullivan can have to say now about a controversy raging when I was fifteen years old (I'm almost 52 now) I don't know.
And, again, what are we supposed to imagine would have taken place in your scenario? Either the mines stay open -- but we don't want that, do we, not with climate change? -- or they close, and the only difference is who gets the spoils. You naturally want the spoils to go to the union. I am not so sure.
Oh for heaven's sake, Althouse. *Of course* those travel tips and travel ads are targeted at the class of well-heeled, inane social climbers. It's no different from the way other luxury goods are targeted at that class, and always have been. Do you really think you're the first person to notice that and laugh at it?
More to the point, why are you taking seriously anything - ad, writer, subject - that shows up in the NYT style or travel section? (I always thought they and their ridiculous pretensions were there to be laughed at by everybody else - the No Moneys, the Less Moneys, and the Real Moneys.)
You seem to have a chronic need to justify your disinclination to travel, to prove that it's *the better choice*, morally, environmentally, whatever.
Why? Who cares? Seems pretty simple to me - you don't like traveling, don't travel. I don't think anybody here thinks it's bad to *not* travel. It's almost as if you're worried that the sort of people who take their kids to Thailand to make kites might think you're a rube or something, so you feel the need to one-up them with the sanctimony card.
Michelle: "People with agricultural skills don't just say "I'm tired of that; put me on an assembly line where it's warm in the winter."
We're talking about poor, black, southern dirt-farmers here, not Buffy and Chad leaving their Wall Street jobs to go to Vermont and make artisanal cheese.
Why take the tykes to Europe? They’d rather be in Busch Gardens anyway. Plus you can avoid the near death experience of riding in an Italian taxicab from the Rome airport.
tcrosse,
I have no idea how you got from what I wrote to "Buffy and Chad." What I said is what I meant. Starting with "people with agricultural skills." Which doesn't include Wall Streeters with stereotypically upper-class white names.
"the nonexistent 'p'" lulz!
Tell me about it!
Michelle: "People with agricultural skills don't just say "I'm tired of that; put me on an assembly line where it's warm in the winter."
People stuck in Subsistence Agriculture have been doing exactly that since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. It's usually been a choice of that or starvation.
people said (TOTALLY HIJACKING a posting on HOW STupid the NYTs is):
Michelle: "People with agricultural skills don't just say "I'm tired of that; put me on an assembly line where it's warm in the winter."
then other people said
We're talking about poor, black, southern dirt-farmers here,
pbsd-f's with ag skills (mostly in crops that don't grow up north), but NO CAPITAL and NO Security to mortgage land with. So, their options in rural (iowa?) would be to be farm labor; which the pbsd-f's would assume meant sharecorppin' for a new massah. A factory owner would offer them SILVER! (not Much SILVER!) to labor in the factory. SILVER! sounds good!
IF a pbsd-f HAD decided to give iowa (say, Calmar) a try; they'd find a grand total of ONE black living there (themselves); which would Scare the HELL out me if i was him. On the Other Hand, I really think the people living in Calmar wouldn't have thought the pbsd-f much more strange than one of those crazy Norwegians from Decorah; after all, if you're Swedish, there's not much more alien and weird and WRONG, than a Norwegian.
{some trout fisher from texas 'why all the churches in Northeast iowa? and i was like: if you were a Czech, from Spillville, would you Enter a Lutheran church full of norskies? If you were a norskie from Decorah, you Dare set foot in Calmar? I thought that Chicago was segragated, until i moved to northeast iowa. There's a Zillion small towns; 'cause they HATE each other
some trout fisher from texas ASKED me, "why..
Even northern white folks migrated to cites in the last century. My paternal family has been been in this country since the 1700’s. They were serial farmers who probably farmed some cereal in Europe, Pennsylvania, and finally Wisconsin. They homesteaded and probably homeschooled. I’m talking generations of farmers back in time as far as time was recorded. But in 1948, my grandfather sold his farm. I guess it was a hard time to get through as a farmer. He had five sons including my dad. My dad and 3 brothers left the farm and moved to different cities: Janesville, Madison, Milwaukee, and Rockford. None of them had friends or connections in those cities. One stayed close to home. Each put down roots. On any given weekend, they would take turns visiting each other. Close but not too far.
I think the mechanization of farming along with cheap fertilizer (thanks, Fritz Haber!) dealt farmhands a serious blow. Even white farmers sought work in cities. Of course they preferred suburban detached homes and so they didn’t actually live in the cities.
It was important for white suburban dwellers to have access to gardens (at least for the women) to practice some of those thrifty skills that farmwives knew. Nowadays, who cares?
Ever notice that many Wisconsin farmsteads have a neatly tended garden next to the house?
Ever notice that many Wisconsin farmsteads have a neatly tended garden next to the house?
In rural areas it's hard to get arugula, radicchio, and cilantro delivered.
"Why take the tykes to Europe? They’d rather be in Busch Gardens anyway."
Because what I want to do factors into the vacation plans too. :)
In church circles, there's "short term mission trips" which are often working-vacations paid for by others.
Don't get me started...
Disclaimer: I've traveled alone throughout SE Asia. I am neither a sex tourist nor a pedophile.
Try telling that to Elon Musk.
No, I was mostly kidding. People should go where they want to go. And of course men travel to SE Asia all the time. Although I did know someone who was arrested for sex tourism while on a business trip. He claimed it was a honey trap. I have no idea, but thought what an excruciating call that must have been to make to his boss.
Freeman- when my oldest boy was in first grade, we took a trip to Monaco and then drove up to Geneva. We got to go through a lot of castles and the boys loved it. In some of them, they could just explore, sit on the latrine hole, everything. They remember it very clearly still.
@MDT
I'm just curious to see what his explanation would be.
Neither Reagan nor Thatcher would have a clue how to dismantle the socialist tumbril carrying them on its way to the guillotine
If John O'Sullivan isn't a never Trump. He may be interesting.
@Freeman Hunt: My wife's dad worked in Germany in the early 2000s and we took our 2 kids over there to visit. They did just fine. They were 5 and 6. Like somebody up thread said, it depends on how well behaved your kids are.
Coincidently, her father moved to Thailand on business afterwards. Despite invitations, we decided not to go there.
Great to hear. I have no trouble traveling with my kids.
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