Thanks to a prompt from Martha in the comments here, I'm seeing my name in the Wall Street Journal today. It's a column by William McGurn titled "Playing the Civility Card/The upending of basic decency and norms began long before Donald Trump."
McGurn tones down my opinion. I don't say that "today's pious demands for civility are often less about good manners than shutting down folks with an opposing view." I say that the talk about civility is always bullshit. That is, it's only ever about getting the other side to shut up.
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১০৯টি মন্তব্য:
Good for you! Nice to be given public credit for being right. Most of us Althouse commenters are now feeling collective effervescence over this. :-)
I say that the talk about civility is always bullshit. That is, it's only ever about getting the other side to shut up.
I disagree. I think that many on the Right genuinely believe in civil discourse and honestly do want to raise the level of discourse. They really would rather lose with dignity then win rudely.
I'd like to believe Althouse's maxim is not absolute though. I'd like to think that sometimes there are people who call for civility who honestly want civility. But we live in suspicious, adversarial times where people are constantly looking for rhetorical advantage. It seems like people are far more interested in "winning" an argument than actually solving a problem.
"Civility Bullshit" goes mainstream!
Althouse - you need to trademark this and immediately start selling t-shirts emblazoned with said maxim.
We could make a fortune.
“Always” is a very high bar to clear, but I think you’re mostly right on that. Let’s go with 98% of the time ...
The WSJ comments section is infested with people who I wonder about. The Facebook page is worse.
Who are these people who keep posting comments that repeat scurrilous lies ?
Fortunately you can block them. I never could get Chrome to block comments but the worst seem to have drifted off.
"That is, it's only ever about getting the other side to shut up."
"Only ever" on the left. 1. We righties know we can never shut up the left anyway. 2. The left knows it can bully some righties into silence, partly exploiting their decency. 3. Civility bullshit is just a subset of all the other lefty bullshit, aimed at getting the other side to shut up since 1789. Vendee, every day. So to speak.
Anyone remember when the New York Times announced on its front page that the journalistic norm of objectivity shouldn’t apply to Mr. Trump
Why yes, I do.
"I say that the talk about civility is always bullshit. That is, it's only ever about getting the other side to shut up."
I say you're just plain wrong.
Anger, incivility, and contention are at their crux coercive and controlling, or attempts to be so. There is nothing wrong with backing someone off from being coercive and controlling. But calling for civility must be done with no matching coercion or attempts to control.
While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the twelve, arrived; with him was a large crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the elders of the people......Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and arrested him [Ah, the carnal feeling of power - of strength in crowds, anger, and intimidation] ......At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest me as though I were a bandit? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not arrest me.
They really would rather lose with dignity then win rudely.
They're not the ones screeching about civility. There's a difference between acting civil and for calling for civility, and only calling for it, from those who disagree with you.
"I say that the talk about civility is always bullshit. That is, it's only ever about getting the other side to shut up."
...or maybe stop shooting.
Always and ever is a long time to go without civility.
What about my Civility Rights?
That said, i do recognize the ploy when it's played
almost always > often. A simple edit.
That said, when the bullshit stops, what comes next? How does Dirty Harry handle Antifa?
Make Civility Bullshit Again!
(MCBA)
or
Make Bullshit Civilized Again!
(MBCA)
Which slogan would sell more red hats? I'm serious about this!
Ann’s fame grows.
Maybe “civility bullshit” becomes part of the lexicon. Tom Wolfe added many phrases.
If this were truely held dear, there would never have been comment moderation or commenters blocked, ever.
Try being uncivil to the judge in your civil case. You won't last long. The question is what constitutes rude or inappropriate behavior, and where is the line that you dare not cross. You can't stick your tongue out at the judge without being held in contempt. Sometime, you just wanna scream; it may even be therapeutic.
Definition of primal scream therapy: psychotherapy in which the patient recalls and reenacts a particularly disturbing past experience usually occurring early in life and expresses normally repressed anger or frustration especially through spontaneous and unrestrained screams, hysteria, or violence — called also primal therapy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=_bcOO3JICgY
Even when they quote you approvingly they have trouble doing it correctly. But you already know that!
Call for civility would be more effective if a) the people on your side weren't acting uncivil and b) you call them out on it and ask them to stop.
Sort of like the global warmists who jet to Rio to agitate for more taxpayer money for their scams. Belief begins at home.
"That is, it's only ever about getting the other side to shut up."
Lemme give that a little clarification,
"That is, it's only [] about [the left] getting the other side to shut up."
"Sort of like the global warmists who jet to Rio to agitate for more taxpayer money for their scams. Belief begins at home."
Please try to educate yourself. If that's rude, too bad.
https://www.nytimes.com/search?query=global+warming
“Always” is a hard standard to live up to. Nothing is always. That’s also a silly a absolute. Absolutes are always bullshit, and so on...
Maybe “civility bullshit” becomes part of the lexicon. Tom Wolfe added many phrases.
Consider, "Doing nothing is a high bar to clear" and correct me if I mangled it. I know I'm close to it.
Please try to educate yourself. If that's rude, too bad.
Really! Are you denying that the same set that constantly agitates for government "solutions" to "global warming" is NOT the same set that jets to Paris and Tokyo and Rio to discuss what to do about "global warming"? Sounds like your education is lacking at least as much as your civility.
I don't talk about civility but I do practice it. And if people don't reciprocate I punch them in the mouth.
If you mean civility in the banal sense that one side will always demand that the other side be more polite, I agree. If you mean civility in the profound sense that undergirds a free society, that to be civil means preferring speech of all kinds over violence, then I disagree — and makes me wonder if your purported commitment to the cultural value of free speech (not to mention the civil protections documented in the First Amendment) has any intellectual foundation.
Althouse is overstating the case. One form of the call for civility is "Don't resort to violence." Sometimes this is tactical and disingenuous (antifa-"Don't resort to violence, you Nazis!"), sometimes it is strategic and ingenuous (MLK-"Don't resort to violence and we will win.").
There has to be global solutions to global warming. Global warming affects the whole planet. Trump pulling out of the Paris Agreement is a dangerous act of foolishness by a moron president.
"The Paris Climate Accord (aka the Paris Agreement or Paris Accord) is the world’s first comprehensive climate agreement, went into effect on Nov. 4, 2016, under the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change."
Trumpit: "There has to be global solutions to global warming."
Everyone gets their own personal Venezuela!
Doing nothing is a high bar to clear
Better than nothing is a high standard.
It will be fun watching the globalist funded media try to pretend a modicum of credibility.
The preference cascade started the day trump won.
We have an economy the progressives promised wasn’t possible.
Because trump is giving us more freedom.
They are enemies of freedom.
Trump pulling out of the Paris Agreement is a dangerous act of foolishness by a moron president.
Bullshit! Only one country has met, and in fact exceeded, the goals of Paris: the USA. Everything else was excuse-making and if you want a "global" solution the one thing you DON'T do is exempt China and India from the pact. How is Paris "global" without the two largest CO2-producing countries being a part of it? When will the other countries actually DO something like USA has?
Thank you, Rehajm! That's it.
I don't think it is always bullshit in politics, but it is probably close to be a proper generalization. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single instance in the last 10 years that isn't an attempt to silence someone.
trumpit, still crazy after all these months.
When does your battery run down ?
"I say that the talk about civility is always bullshit. That is, it's only ever about getting the other side to shut up."
Who is the subject? Is the "talk" only referring to political pundits or cable news, or formal political subjects, or do you really mean to say that any attempt to teach civility is really about shutting someone up?
Civility is also about basic manners. Say excuse me when if you bump into someone on the street. Say please pass the salt, not Pass the salt!" Don't ask a woman "when is she due" if she has a tummy, because it might be fat, not a baby.
We've gotten our toddler to say please, which comes out "PLEEAASE!" Much better then just yelling "APPLESAUCE!"
We don't want our child to shut-up. We love the talking. Civility allows children & adults to interact with the world. People don't want to hang out with others who are not civil. They don't get dinner invitations, cause people don't like other's yelling "APPLESAUCE" at the table.
Civility is the oil that permits un-related people in a civil society to operate in social situations.
Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming... Global warming is natural, evolutionary, and only progressive (i.e. monotonic) within variable frames of reference (e.g. step-wise differentiable) in time and space. Anthropogenic forcing has limited, sustainable effects (e.g. urban heat island) in the wild.
The intellectual roots of the First Amendment (and free speech as a cultural value) are that societies settle disputes either by argument or by violence, and that free people prefer to settle their disputes by argument. The first definition of civil is “relating to ordinary citizens, as opposed to the military and the church.” You’re focusing on the second definition, “polite or courteous.”
Civility in conflict tends to preserve relationships. Preserving relationships is often a reasonable goal.
You establish principles by being the example. Hectoring and criticizing are not that. Even preening about your example is a failure.
For Trumpit's edification A few facts to add to Mike's observations. "U.S. CO2 Levels Drop Again" from IBD.
There is, in my opinion, only one prominent politician in the last 20 years to practice far more than he preached the ideal of civility- that was George W. Bush, and I consider him a big failure as a president in pretty much every regard. In politics, civility is only a minor important characteristic.
Lately I've been thinking about the difference between the word "civil" and the word "civic."
What is a "civil" society? How is it, or is it, related to civility?
Is rudeness necessary to convey your point? Is the point substantive?
Is it necessary to discuss your penis size in public at a televised debate watched by children? Are you sure the negative response is just about "shutting you up?" Is there really no conception that a parent might be disturbed at the rudeness?
Here's a dictionary definition of "civility"
archaic : training in the humanities
2 a : civilized conduct; especially : courtesy, politeness bemoaned the decline of civility in our politics
b : a polite act or expression
Ann,
"I say that the talk about civility is always bullshit. That is, it's only ever about getting the other side to shut up."
And usually only after the other side is getting the better results.
Playing the civility bullshit card is also bullshit. But that's where we are today, the Age of Bullshit.
LBotC: We live in the Bullshit (entropic) Universe. Those that want to live elsewhere are nihilists.
the TALK about Civility... I don't think most people understand this pigeonhole in which a mere fragment of civility is placed.
Are we forgiven?
It's mostly, perhaps often bullshit. However, when a woman asks you stop assaulting her front hole, it's not bullshit. When a masculine man, or feminine girl, asks you to stop assaulting his, or her, back hole, it's not bullshit. When a White-Hispanic-American asks you to stop tenderizing his head, it's not bullshit. When a diminutive shopkeeper asks you to set him down, it's not bullshit. When a clump of cells that will grow up to be a baby is denied a voice, it's not bullshit. Calls to civility may often, but not exclusively, have ulterior motives.
What about the apparently overlooked "Forgive those Americans who concur with blogger Ann Althouse"? Even in its watered down form, the author rejects the Althouse civility rule.
He's dotty.
"the TALK about Civility... I don't think most people understand this pigeonhole in which a mere fragment of civility is placed."
Yeah, but when I tell my toddler "Say Please." I am talking about civility.
Parents talk about civility all the time to kids. Say Thank you. Don't yell inside the restaurant. Wait until the other kid goes down the slide. No you can't throw that rock. Inside Voice Please!
Is this post about Pundits on TV or Cable news talking about civility? We need a noun in the sentence. Who is doing the Talking? I assume everyone is on the same page about parents talking to kids about civility so they don't run around yelling "APPLESAUCE!"
Trumpit said...
There has to be global solutions to global warming. Global warming affects the whole planet. Trump pulling out of the Paris Agreement is a dangerous act of foolishness by a moron president.
And what of the fact that among all the signatories, no country has done better than the United States of meeting those carbon targets?
The Paris Agreement is bullshit. There does not have to be a global solution to global warming. The money wasted would be better spent focusing on hardening infrastructure so that we can cope with the effects of climate change whatever they may be (because climate change is natural and there's nothing we can do to stop it)
n.n. the moron always makes point from the view of the singularity
Henry said...
Are we forgiven?
Make a good Act of Contrition and say three Hail Mary's.
Active versus Passive sentences:
Active:
Subject, Verb, Object.
Passive: Verb, Object, (Hide the subject, neglect to include.)
Active:
"You stole the cookies."
Passive:
"The cookies have been stolen by a mystery person who we dare not name because reasons."
Bush failed in large part *because* of his civility. Not once in his entire Presidency did I see him fail to give his opponents the benefit of the doubt, or assert that they were arguing in bad faith. This was fatal given that the Left's attacks on him were virtually always in bad faith.
Trump calls out the Left when they are obviously arguing in bad faith, which no doubt seems very uncivil to them.
As noted below, re tennis, when the stakes of the game have gotten too high, everything other than winning no longer counts. People are willing to accept costs for even small tactical victories, such as loss of reputation. Until there is no reputation left to lose.
We tried civility after your insane hatred of Reagan. (HW Bush, Dole, W, McCain, Romney). You leftists shoved it down our throats.
Now you get Trump and are being bludgeoned by the same rules you tried to impose upon the rest of us.
Don't like it? Tough. You have no one to blame but yourselves.
Embrace the suck. You built this.
Oh yeah?
So's your old man!
And your mother dresses you funny.!
I don't talk about civility but I do practice it. And if people don't reciprocate I punch them in the mouth
@ Roughcoat
Yup.
As the saying goes. Play bitch games. Win bitch prizes. :-)
"Bush failed in large part *because* of his civility."
-- I think that Bush, McCain and Romney all had problems because they kept assuming that the Dem politicians were arguing in good faith, or that they could get the media to see things as neutral arbiters. The moment, I think, Romney realized the other side thought of him as nothing more than the Hitler du jour was the terrible debate the moderator sand bagged him and lied to help Obama; I don't think Bush or McCain ever have had an equally powerful sucker punch to wake them up.
Like, I thought, after Reid and others begged McCain to stop campaigning and come back and help with the financial meltdown, and then immediately called him a nutjob crazy pants with no leadership skills for coming back to help with the meltdown *like they asked*, he'd realize they were no friends of his.
Yet, he kept trying to kick the football of congeniality with the left. It's a noble goal, and I hope someday we can play nice together.
You will not play nice together unless the game is reduced to small stakes.
Otherwise there will always be cards up sleeves and pistols under the table.
Our 5th grade teacher told us, when we complained about something, "Americans are free people. You don't have to do anything but pay taxes and die."
You make your choices & you accept the consequences of that choice. You are civil, or you are not. You nominate someone who is civil, or you nominate someone who is not. Other Americans will let you know if they're ok with it, or not.
I am all for civil bullshit
Matthew Sabian:
If the media blaming Bush for Katrina even as the LA governor didn't allow him to do anything, and even as the mayor let all those buses sit unused in a flood zone, and repeatedly asserting that he wanted black people to die even as he spent more on AIDS in Africa than anyone ever, wasn't enough to clue him in that they weren't arguing in good faith, he's a moron. I can think of another dozen examples worse than the Crowley bullshit. And note: I don't think he's a moron. His behavior the last few weeks confirmed to me that he was just another player on the Washington Generals.
Don't start nothing won't be nothing.
I'll thank you to keep a civil tongue in your head, Sir.
Saul Alinsky invented assholery in modern American politics. So blame him and all his asshole followers like Barack Obama and especially Hillary Clinton.
I think when talking and writing about civility, especially today, one might take a few minutes to be reminded of what real heroes look like.
There is a time and place for civility and there is a time and place for kicking ass.
“Ann’s fame grows.”
Nah. I used to be more famous. Ten years ago. Back in the golden age of blogging.
I was as famous as I wanted to be and now I don’t even care. I’m just lolling about, luxuriating in the decadent age of blogging.
In 5 more years, we can look back and write Tales of the Blog Age.
Here is a genuine solution to the CO2 emissions problem:
http://thorconpower.com/docs/domsr.pdf
It's also the only thing that we know of that can substantially reduce or reverse increased CO2 emissions at this point in time.
I'm not saying this is the only possible solution, but it is the only idea I've ever heard of that does not require significant technological advances that will take an unknown amount of time
I've been in the pro-freedom camp for decades, and monitoring the "liberal" Hive once I realized it was the enemy, and I can tell you from nearly life-long observation of "liberals" (by which I mean of course "tax-happy, coercion-addicted, power-tripping government humpers and State shtuppers"), that calls for "civility" from members of the Hive are almost ALWAYS about shutting up, and shutting down, anyone who opposes the Hive. (I put in the "almost" just to be fair.)
When has politics ever been civil?
I forgive you all.
You are not really famous until you are accused of sexual misconduct.
Get woke, try to poke, go broke.
“Ann’s fame grows.”
Nah. I used to be more famous. Ten years ago. Back in the golden age of blogging.
I was as famous as I wanted to be and now I don’t even care. I’m just lolling about, luxuriating in the decadent age of blogging.
Reason No. 3424 why we cherish our blog hostess. She is not only talented and insightful, but humble and even-keeled.
" You are civil, or you are not."
I marvel at your ability to miss Althouse's point.
Howard:
You're projecting your bad judgment with a notably narrow perspective.
A serious inquiry for someone with Constitutional and cultural chops would be how the banal definition of civility (politeness, courtesy, propriety) has become the mortal enemy of the profound definition of civility (the right of individuals to speak and assemble without fear of violence, the right to communicate with others without censorship by the state or private elites).
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand upon. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."
-- John Wayne, "The Shootist"
Insults can be uncivil: You lying piece of shit! or they can be very civil. Consider the following attributed exchange:
Gladstone to Disraeli: Sir, you shall die either upon the gallows or of the pox!
Disraeli to Gladstone: That depends, sir, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress.
Just because you’re civil to someone’s face doesn’t mean you’re not a Janus or backstabber.
It's good to see you garnering attention for doing something good, however uncivil you are about this bullshit. I'm writing this while wearing shorts.
here has to be global solutions to global warming. Global warming affects the whole planet. Trump pulling out of the Paris Agreement is a dangerous act of foolishness by a moron president.
Ok genius, how do we survive without the sun?
And how do we stop the earth from outgassing?
The idea that talk about civility is always about getting the other side to shut up seems clearly wrong, for at least the following reasons.
First, unless the speaker's only message is incivility, there is an obvious difference between asking someone to shut up and asking that they speak in a civil manner.
Second, civility talk is not always directed at the other side. Sometimes its directed at one's own side because one thinks that being uncivil is counterproductive to shared aims. I sometimes want my fellow Democrats to be civil because I think it helps achieve our aims and that they are not considering how their incivility might set us back. Republicans often feel the same way about Trump.
Third, to the extent that civility talk is directed at the other side, it can still make sense in terms of the other side's interests. It's very common in ordinary discourse to point out to someone on the other side of an argument or a lawsuit or a political debate that their incivility is increasing the likelihood of harm to them, for example, by unnecessarily pissing someone off or by eroding trust that might provide the basis for a mutually beneficial compromise.
Fourth, at least some of the time, on some issues, my side and the other side will share interests that are harmed by incivility. If compromises are sometimes essential to democratic politics, and if incivility systematically reduces our ability to find compromises, then we should all be open to the argument that incivility is harming us all.
Unless you believe that these considerations never in fact apply, or never move people who call for civility, the claim that all civility talk is BS is itself BS--and potentially more than a little destructive in its own right.
All this is framed in narrowly instrumental, interest-based thinking. If one were to allow that some civility values are simply matters of right and wrong, and that discourse about matters of right and wrong is not always BS, the all civility talk is BS argument would get even weaker.
Blogger Bay Area Guy said...
"Civility Bullshit" goes mainstream!
Althouse - you need to trademark this and immediately start selling t-shirts emblazoned with said maxim.
I'd buy a bunch through the Amazon Portal, Ann! A double win for you!
I love how those old-timey gentleman used to wish the pox upon their rivals, or their rivals' houses. I used to think it was a quaint, even civil way of expressing displeasure. Turns out it meant "I hope you die from syphilis."
Disraeli to Gladstone: That depends, sir, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress.
Burn.
Cynicism is a first-order forcing of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Whimsical Amusement (CAWA).
Howard:
I raised five points, oh ye of low bit count. Witness the "big bang".
"Call for civility would be more effective if a) the people on your side weren't acting uncivil and b) you call them out on it and ask them to stop."
That would require Americans to stop regarding politics as revenge and be willing to defuse a confrontation rather than trying to escalate until they win.
As long as the attitude is "If they're going to be nasty to me, I'm going to hit them back twice as hard!" [as you can see from some commenters right here]
there won't be any interest in urging civility on your own side. Rather, you'll want your side to amp up the nastiness, until we're into an arms race of nastiness.
Ann, this is exactly most of the time I love yah. Anything more would be a medical condition.
"All this is framed in narrowly instrumental, interest-based thinking. "
All human history is founded on exactly that.
If you are going to predict political behavior this is the accurate model.
"by unnecessarily pissing someone off or by eroding trust that might provide the basis for a mutually beneficial compromise."
The evolution of the US political system is such that because the power of the Federal government has become the most important single economic factor, the stakes have become extreme, and so the costs of compromise have become excessive. Everything is getting closer to being a zero-sum game. So most "sides" cannot afford to compromise. And as for trust - every man has his price, especially the sort who play these games.
All of the above has only one solution - reduce the stakes. That will require removing most of the vast powers of the FedGov, so that the pot on the table is reduced.
That is a very politically skewed thing. Since the Democrats are the "party of government", cultural and ideological owners of the whole government apparatus save for the armed forces, as well as nearly all of the public-private attachments to the FedGov, plus much of the private sector most affected by government policy, this "solution" would be a death-blow to them.
Catch 22.
A nasty situation without a peaceful solution.
It's even got into a dictionary as an example of the use of word "concur"
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/concur
Forgive those Americans who concur with blogger Ann Althouse that today’s pious demands for civility are often less about good manners than shutting down folks with an opposing view.
I'm just sorry the WSJ column is behind a paywall so I can't find out who is forgiving me. Though I doubt if they are.
Buwaya at 8:14: Excellent analysis.
All of the above has only one solution - reduce the stakes. That will require removing most of the vast powers of the FedGov, so that the pot on the table is reduced.
Yes. The 9/11 attack really put the administrative state in control. The number I saw tonight on "Terrorism" spending is in the trillions.
Lots of that fattened wallets currently very angry at Trump.
n.n. zeroing in means not getting distracted by shine.
sinz52: "That would require Americans to stop regarding politics as revenge and be willing to defuse a confrontation rather than trying to escalate until they win."
For instance, the republican congressional candidate in California should have stood very very still while the typical dem assailant went about his business attempting to stab the republican.
Because that republican, in very uncivil manner, refused to stand still, that democrat hero dropped his knife and it became scuffed. No doubt now requiring significant effort to rebuff and shine.
Further, at no point did that republican attempt to diffuse the situation by calmly explaining that, gee, it sure would be swell not to, like, get stabbed or anything.
NO no no. That deplorable republican instead moved away from the stabber, thus "otherizing" the would-be murderer and denying that noble democrat his humanity.
Just another reason to impeach Trump.
Make America Great for Would Be Knife Murderers Again!
Buwaya writes:
That is a very politically skewed thing. Since the Democrats are the "party of government", cultural and ideological owners of the whole government apparatus save for the armed forces, as well as nearly all of the public-private attachments to the FedGov, plus much of the private sector most affected by government policy, this "solution" would be a death-blow to them.
Buwaya:
Your argument that higher stakes, zero sum situations make it hard to find compromises makes sense. Moreover, it's clear that the stakes in federal governance have rarely been higher.
But do you think all these situations are zero sum? My own sense is that in some, from rescuing the economy after the failure of Lehman Brothers to immigration policy, there can be substantial gains from trade. One harm of incivility is that it can obscure the potential for/and the reality of such gains.
The notion there are asymmetric stakes in the size and strength of the federal government, however, seems doubtful For every potential Democratic interest in federal regulation, in safety net spending, or in taxes to support them, there is an parallel Republican interest in deregulation, not funding the undeserving and lowering federal taxes. I don't know how one could establish that one is somehow larger than the other. Certainly not based upon intensity of preferences, given the stridency on both sides. If you believe in behavioral economics, you might theorize that one side feels more strongly about these issues because of framing effects--that is, that one side is more likely to unwilling to compromise because they view any particular outcome as an absolute loss from an assumed baseline rather than a gain from trade. But so long as both sides have a stake in the current baseline, it would seem that the potential for seeing compromise as a loss is equally shared between the sides. Again, incivility can hurt by heightening the sense that any compromise with an uncivil opponent represents caving to evil, rather than a sensible resolution of a multifaceted problem.
So what evidence do you have for the asymmetry point?
"The notion there are asymmetric stakes in the size and strength of the federal government, however, seems doubtful"
Since the personnel of the Federal Government make their living through government spending, and especially by creating a demand for spending on compliance (including for instance the generation of legal costs), there you have a lot of powerful interests. Millions upon millions of rice bowls.
The government is not what it does, but what it is. It is its own interest group.
And its impact extends vastly beyond government employees, into the entire policy, compliance, consulting, lobbying, law firms, universities, NGO and Qango industries. Most live off non-tax burdens on the private sector. All of these groups are intensely Democratic, and depend on Democratic party policies to survive and prosper. Look at the voter registration stats for Washington DC and Southern Maryland/Northern Virginia if you want some indication of where the wind blows.
As for the private sector, regulation is not a net negative across the board. For established and especially highly regulated industries it is often an important asset in creating barriers to entry and economies of scale re compliance, or in establishing regulatory advantages over rivals. You can read Schumpeter for the theory, but the practice is easy to find, or if you are on the inside in an F1000 company it is a daily fact.
Consider, for instance, the quite public competition between financial institutions in the great consolidation wars of the 1990's-2000's. Among other things they promised quotas, as if they were putting in bids, on CRA (Community Reinvestment Act) pledges.
There is a very large split between business sectors, and between large and less-large businesses in the same sector. In general the larger they are and the less "physical" the product they put out, the more Democrat their upper management is.
What is true about civility is true also about working across party lines>
Excerptfroman email by Jerry NAdler today:
Tomorrow is Primary Day! I am endorsing a slate of great candidates that can defeat the Independent Democratic Conference (IDC) and once again allow the New York State Senate to be controlled by Democrats -- not Republicans and the IDC, who have been working together to block progressive legislation for years.
Buwaya:
Your latest comment seeks to show that millions of people (and some businesses) have substantial stakes in federal government employment and continued or expanded regulation that cause them to line up on the Democratic side. I'll grant that's true.
Your claim, though, was that the stakes were politically skewed. That depends on showing that Democratic interests in increased regulation and taxation are greater than (or perhaps more effectively deployed) than those of Republicans in reducing regulation and taxes. You've said nothing, however, about the nature or magnitude of the Republican stake, let alone how the difference between Democratic and Republican stakes would support the skewing claim.
Stephen,
My original point was that trust, compromise, collegiality, etc. are demode when the stakes are too high.
The reason for the high stakes is an excess of government power. The only way out is to massively reduce the size and power of the government to reduce the stakes.
To reduce the size and power of the government will represent a massive personal loss to the core constituents, and especially so to the biggest stakeholders of the Democratic party.
That is, government cannot be reduced without fatal harm to the Democrats. It certainly can be reduced without harming the corresponding ranks of Republicans. There are relatively few Republicans in the population of Washington and its suburbs. And Republican-leaning businesses are largely those of the second tier and below, fighting the regulatory diseconomies that favor the large ones.
Thanks, Buwaya. I agree with you that high stakes makes things more difficult, and I'll think more about the asymmetry point. I appreciate your engagement and patience. Steve
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