From "Americans Are Terrible at Small Talk/One Irish woman’s unscientific investigation" by Maeve Higgins (NYT).
ADDED: It's not just about conversations. It's about relationships. If it's all-or-nothing, and friendship means you've got to have major intimacy, then keeping control of your life and avoiding being used demand that you exclude almost everyone (or even everyone). There should be a middle distance — a near but not too near orbit — that's comfortable and understood. And not just on the internet.
IN THE COMMENTS: cronus titan said:
This has already been covered, and far better, in the novel Brooklyn by Colm Toibin (later made into a not bad movie) about a young Irish woman immigrating to the US. The novel explores the "small talk" of Ireland. In the novel, that "small talk" cleverly disguises manipulation and control honed over centuries in Ireland. The protagonist, Eilis Lacey, has trouble adjusting to the US because we do not waste time with much small talk. When an American speaks or flirts with her, Eilis just assumes there are a thousand angles being played. It is only when she returns to Ireland that she understands how that small talk will define her life (it is a bit more complex than that but that is the gist).
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News flash: New Yorkers are not eager to strike up conversations with strangers on the subway.
I'm sure the NNT just means white Americans, who are too greedy and mean to talk about anything other than money and getting money and oppressing their betters to get money or oppressing them just for fun even if it costs money.
Féachaint amach go bhfuil sí Gaeilge!"
Craic has a different meaning in NYC.
Obviously, we American men only exchange pleasantries with fellow members of the patriarchy, trading tips on how better to coerce compliance among our respective handmaidens...
Situational acquaintanceship works for me.
Such bullshit. My bet is the problem began with the woman finding a problem.
"In Ireland, small talk is just that — I mean, it’s tiny."
In America too! It's the weirdest thing! So weird that, if I remember a memorable college course correctly, an American social scientist (Goffman? rhhardin will correct me if not) even made a study of it! And, if I remember my remembrance correctly, he actually talked about tiny talk! It was weird! A weird thing to study something so tiny, I mean. Which is probably why I remember it.
"If it's all-or-nothing, and friendship means you've got to have major intimacy, then keeping control of your life and avoiding being used demand that you exclude almost everyone (or even everyone). There should be a middle distance — a near but not too near orbit — that's comfortable and understood."
And there is, isn't there?
"News flash: New Yorkers are not eager to strike up conversations with strangers on the subway."
Well, I didn't reprint the whole essay, but the author is trying to speak with a woman who is in a yoga class with her as well as another class. So she saw the coincidence of the 2 of them starting the same 2 classes. The author had introduced herself at the end of one of the classes and they'd talked about the coincidence. Then, after the other class, "it made sense to walk together to the subway to get into the city" for the other class. The author wanted to make a little small talk and the other woman seemed to need to distance her.
First Date small talk.
Zoe: Hi, sorry I'm late. Traffic.
Sam: No problem. You look great!
Zoe: Please stop looking. I was raised in a matriarchy where there was no male gaze. My great grandmother took a wandering hobo to her bed and relieved him of his seed and threw him back into the alleys of Baltimore. My grandmother knifed a cowboy from Omaha before the placenta dried. My mother conceived me with some awkward baggage handler from Rome in transit to Helsinki.
Sam: ...
Zoe: It is going to be rainy tomorrow. That will be good for the birds.
Sam: ..um, yey. Maybe more a, uh, day at the museum than the beach.
Zoe: Those of us raised in the Commune don't go to a beach. Or the museum. Way too mentally disturbing. The stench of over sexed manhood in the sand and the horrors of their wars and misdeeds recorded in dioramas.
Sam: ...
Zoe: That wall is a nice colour green.
Sam: ..um, so what do you think is good here?
Zoe: Nothing with meat obviously. Trump loving animal eaters should all be butchered in their own abattoirs.
Sam: ...
Zoe: I should share an article on the lost art of conversation in an iPhone world I saw on the Commune collective website. Do men read?
I grew up in a suburb of Milwaukee, and attended college in the city of Milwaukee.
I don't know if it is true anymore, but you could strike up a conversation with practically anyone while waiting at the corner for the lights to change so you could cross the street.
And when I graduated, I got a job in Chicago. I learned that Chicagoans will not have a conversation with a stranger - they will ignore you. On the rare occasions that I did find myself in a conversation with a stranger, I would ask, "So where are you from?" And the answer was never Chicago.
I understand the other woman's point of view: I might think, oh, no, now we have to take the subway together from one class to another every week and she's going to want to bend my ear the whole way. I've got to establish boundaries. I recognize a problem with that point of view (and I tend to share it). The problem is you're so anxious about anybody moving into your zone of privacy that you need to signal that they'd better not think they can get close to you at all: There's no middle distance.
Liberal NY Times readers get their daily fix of "Why Americans are terrible people."
If this Irish woman is so eager to gab with strangers, she should try Georgia or Texas. I met plenty of people there who are more than happy to strike up conversations with you in grocery store lines and diners. But those people are deplorables in Jesusland so who wants to talk to them?
Isn't this writer perpetrating a stereotype of the Irish as being garrulous types ready to dispense amusing insights at the drop of a shillelagh?
@ D 2
LOL. I love comments that use stuff from old threads.
the author is trying to speak with a woman who is in a yoga class with her as well as another class. So she saw the coincidence of the 2 of them starting the same 2 classes. The author had introduced herself at the end of one of the classes and they'd talked about the coincidence. Then, after the other class, "it made sense to walk together to the subway to get into the city" for the other class. The author wanted to make a little small talk and the other woman seemed to need to distance her.}}}}
That's how I would react most of the time. Occasionally I will discover through small talk (when they met in class) that further conversation with this new acquaintance holds promise. But if not, then I wouldn't want to make them part of my commute. Especially since in this case it sounds like the situation is going to recur.
The Zoe article is going to haunt / linger in the mind for some time. Oh brave new world.
Hint: that is what Sunday School Class and Church dinners are for. Go see for yourself... it’is A communion. And you see the same people over a year until masks can come down. NYC is another challenge.
Michael The Magnificent said...
I grew up in a suburb of Milwaukee, and attended college in the city of Milwaukee.
I don't know if it is true anymore, but you could strike up a conversation with practically anyone while waiting at the corner for the lights to change so you could cross the street.
And when I graduated, I got a job in Chicago. I learned that Chicagoans will not have a conversation with a stranger - they will ignore you. On the rare occasions that I did find myself in a conversation with a stranger, I would ask, "So where are you from?" And the answer was never Chicago.
8/5/18, 9:54 AM
This is quite true. While I think Midwesterners are a bit more reserved than Southerners, I was startled when I moved back to the Milwaukee area from the East Coast and people said hi and struck up conversations with me. I had become used to East Coast aloofness.
Chicago is the big exception, although the staff at the "Friendly Confines" of Wrigley Field really is friendly, even to strangers with Brewers T-shirts on.
On a side note; the Irish excel at sanctimony.
There is a fear, which I have in spades, that a new friend will be a mistake, since many are. You know the types. They may not be able to shut up, or start inviting you to stuff you would dread. They start showing up far too often in your life. Once you get one of those attached to you, you have this horrible situation where you have to evict someone from your life, and that is a horrible unwanted situation to find yourself in. You are now in the position of having to hurt someone just for being friendly, making you a complete jerk. That's what makes us so guarded, and it makes sense. You lose control of your own time, which is already mostly controlled by your current friends, family, and work. That remaining free time, is a treasure to protect.
By engaging in conversation, you could’ve found out this woman exploits her own personal experiences and relationships for pay at outlets like...the NY Times.
Also, who even talks to Irish people once you hear the accent?!?
Did anyone else in Yoga class smell whiskey, rainwater, sheep and desperation?
It's kind of like a meat lover complaining that vegetarians shun meat. They don't like what you do. It's not complicated or wrong, just different.
Does anyone else find it illuminating that the New York Times, the voice of the progressive left, has recently been running lots of articles and opinion pieces about how much trouble people are having with interpersonal relationships? Could it be that the type of mind that embraces forced collectivism (which is what progressivism is about) is also the type of mind that has trouble relating to others as individuals?
There should be a middle distance — a near but not too near orbit — that's comfortable and understood. And not just on the internet.
Isn't that just another way of saying what the Irishwoman was saying? To phrase it slightly differently, "Americans can't converse, they can only talk about themselves."
I don't know how we stack up against humanity as a whole, but I can see how people who are used to enjoying the pleasures of le bon bec as a matter of course in daily life would feel and regret its absence here.
(Sometimes in public people do just want to be left the hell alone, but knowing how to "twirl" and being sensitive to that aren't mutually exclusive.)
I flew from LA to San Juan once with a guy next to me that would NOT.STOP.TALKING!!!
I am reminded of George Burns's explanation of how he worked "I just ask Gracie about her brother and then hang on" (Quoting from memory)
I sat down, said hello to my seatmate and opened my book. He took the hello as a cue. He was a magician based in LA who worked cruise ships, going to SJ for a gig. That was mildly interesting for a few minutes. Then he started talking about global warming. He was a believer and I am not the guy to get into this conversation with.
Luckily I had my Bose noise canceling headphones and put them on. It didn't stop him talking for the entire flight but at least I couldn't hear him.
On a cruise ship hot tub last year a guy next to me started telling me how horrible President Trump was. He wanted me to agree that he was a racist but could not provide a single example. I refuted a few other points and then we got to discussing credit unions. He "owned" one and we spent 15-20 minutes talking about money, banking, credit unions and auto loans. Once we got over President Trump, he was a really cool guy to talk to.
My wife, in the LAX Admiral's Club, once struck up a conversation with a Chinese guy sitting next to her. He turned out to be a VP with Panda Express. He was talkative and interesting. He gave her a "Lucky" key fob. Lucky because showing it got 15% off any meal at Panda Express. It REALLY impressed the counter clerks, they would sometimes have to call the manager to verify what it was. Pretty cool.
I seem to be a professional talker so tend to value alone time when I have it. Not great at starting conversations with random strangers. Generally don't like them doing it to me, either. I'll say hello when I sit down on a plane but generally prefer that to be the last thing I say to my seatmate.
John Henry
I understand the other woman's point of view: I might think, oh, no, now we have to take the subway together from one class to another every week and she's going to want to bend my ear the whole way. I've got to establish boundaries.
I had an Irish upstairs neighbor that I didn't know was Irish once; he was a bit squirrely and not home much. I'd spoken with him an few times and from listening to him I'd have sworn he was from the Midwest, specifically Ohio or Indiana.
Other than his last name being Murphy I had no clue until one of our other neighbors told me that Murphy had gotten married and was moving into his wife's place. Then mentioned that they'd just got back from Ireland after having gone over so his bride could meet his family.
I ran into Murphy not long after that and mentioned that I had no idea he was Irish. He laughed and laughed, then said; 'Yeah, I had a lot of people fooled about that!'. I walked away the distinct feeling that he may have been IRA and on the run.
So, the Irish got that going for them....
I moved from NYC to Toronto a few years ago and if I want to strike up a conversation with a random stranger (say, to grouse about a subway delay), I need to find an immigrant. Most locals will pretend they didn't hear me.
I showed this article to my wife, who hates small talk. She said, "I like the Americans she's compaining about more than I like her."
We both agreed she never did say what was wrong with the Americans' approach, she just asserted it as though it were obvious. All in all, a failure as an article.
My wife is just the opposite, will start talking to anyone. The conversation with the Panda Express guy started with her asking if he was Chinese.
We once had some German sailors over for dinner and my wife asked them what they thought of Hitler and the "NAZIS". The Lt thought that in general he had the right idea. Germany's destiny was and is to rule Europe. Especially the French and Italians who are pathetically disorganized. He thought Hitler's methods were wrong and that whole WWII thing was a mistake.
Sometimes I pretend she is just a random stranger.
John Henry
Another side note; vis a vis Piers Morgan and John Oliver, there's nothing that turns on a leftie more than being told they don't measure up by a Brit or Irishman.
bagoh20: There is a fear, which I have in spades, that a new friend will be a mistake, since many are. You know the types. They may not be able to shut up, or start inviting you to stuff you would dread. They start showing up far too often in your life. Once you get one of those attached to you, you have this horrible situation where you have to evict someone from your life, and that is a horrible unwanted situation to find yourself in. You are now in the position of having to hurt someone just for being friendly...
That's why you need to get to know people slowly. Let relationships evolve at a comfortable, natural pace. Why "small talk" about non-personal things is a good thing, and "confessional" exchanges before a real friendship has been established are bad and the enemy of real friendship. (And not just because they're really boring.)
One way I know that there is no possibility of friendship between a new acquaintance and myself is if they unload personal stuff on me right out of the gate, and expect me to do the same. Now, it the lady on the train strikes up an agreeable chat about the quality of the afternoon light...there are possibilities there.
This has already been covered, and far better, in the novel Brooklyn by Colm Toibin (later made into a not bad movie)about a young Irish woman immigrating to the US. The novel explores the "small talk" of Ireland. In the novel, that "small talk" cleverly disguises manipulation and control honed over centuries in Ireland. The protagonist, Eilis Lacey, has trouble adjusting to the US because we do not waste time with much small talk. When an American speaks or flirts with her, Eilis just assumes there are a thousand angles being played. It is only when she returns to Ireland that she understands how that small talk will define her life (it is a bit more complex than that but that is the gist).
Americans are terrible at small talk... "Then, after the other class, 'it made sense to walk together to the subway to get into the city" for the other class. The author wanted to make a little small talk and the other woman seemed to need to distance her'."
Good thing they didn't get on an airplane together!
Just another American who saw too many movies as a child? Another orphan of a bankrupt culture who thinks he's John Wayne?
"I got enough friends!"
Aside, was John McClane in Die Hard 2 really saying "I got enough black friends", you know, from the first Die Hard movie?
"By engaging in conversation, you could’ve found out this woman exploits her own personal experiences and relationships for pay at outlets like...the NY Times."
True. Watch out for "writers." And since anyone can turn into a "writer" in this age of social media, watch out in general.
Maeve might be more comfortable in St Paul, MN, where Professional Irishmen abound. As a guy with an Irishy-sounding name, my dirty little secret was that all my Irish forebears were a bunch of Prods.
John Henry: We once had some German sailors over for dinner and my wife asked them what they thought of Hitler and the "NAZIS". The Lt thought that in general he had the right idea. Germany's destiny was and is to rule Europe. Especially the French and Italians who are pathetically disorganized. He thought Hitler's methods were wrong and that whole WWII thing was a mistake.
Sometimes I pretend she is just a random stranger.
Lol.
I dunno, JH, your wife sounds like a good conversationalist. She's not talking about herself, she's asking people what they think about things, not about what they do for a living or the details of their personal lives, and it looks like she manages to elicit some mighty interesting information from 'em. Maybe something you'd rather not know, but hey, isn't it a lot more interesting than their job or how much they paid for their house?
On the street, strangers who try to strike up a conversation are usually beggars. In transportation, strangers who try to strike up a conversation are usually mentally ill or obnoxious blowhards. In yoga class, strangers who try to strike up a conversation, are usually self-obsessed douchebags.
The Irish never met an opinion they didn't feel obliged to express.
D 2,
That was fucking funny!
Angel Dyne,
You are absolutely right about my wife, of course. She does have some interesting conversations. May be why we've been married 44 years.
How she gets into those conversations ("Hey, how about them NAZIS, huh?" "Are you Chinese?), sometimes makes me cringe.
When we had the German sailors over one of them as an Austrian. He stayed pretty quiet during the NAZI discussion.
Overall, it was a great experience, lots of fun. Nobody seemed offended at the NAZI question.
After, my son and I drove them back to their ship. A Destroyer or Frigate IIRC and they took the 2 of us throughout the entire ship. Including some areas like combat control that had huge ACHTUNG!!! Signs warning us to keep out. "I'm not supposed to take you in here but what the Hell.")
Irish Alzheimers
You forget everything but the past offenses.
John Henry
Although I am of Irish descent on both sides I have no desire whatsoever to visit that country.
I've read enough about "craic" to know I appreciate not being exposed to it daily.
There are enough tiresome gasbags in this country.
"The author wanted to make a little small talk and the other woman seemed to need to distance her."
That's another genre: "New York Times writer unable to fathom personal rejection, projects universal problem."
"Americans don't like small talk." No, the other woman didn't want to talk to you, personally. She didn't reject small talk. She rejected small talk with you.
Likewise: "Trump supporters hate the free press." No, we love the free press. We hate and reject smug members of the coastal MSM Democratic Media Complex. We hate and reject each of them, personally.
I used one of my free passes to read that- what a waste. Lawrence just above my comment here is right- the generalization shows just how stupid the writer is, and this is me simply accepting that the anecdote itself is actually truthful, which I think it probably isn't.
The Talker..
Let's see: I'm Irish, second generation, on my mother's side. I'm a good listener and I got that from her. Women like that trait in me, but never enough to sleep with me. It's a Beta trait that I still have. As someone in 12 step recovery (24 years so far), I approach newcomers in the room and make them feel welcome by introducing myself. I will be patient and polite when someone starts up a conversation with me in public, but I prefer that time to myself and would rather the person in the airplane seat next to me never utter a word to me. I believe it is because I am a reader and enjoy uninterrupted time to do so. So I am all over the place. A mess, as it were. I would much rather text than answer a phone call. I can reply at my convenience, though I usually do so quickly.
So, its an Irishwoman in NYC and that equals "America".
I don't think so.
You know who is good at small talk?
Southerners. They'll talk your ear off, and not get too personal.
there I was, in the Starbucks, eating my po' boy--
not even the baristas would talk to me, except to call me "Baby".
so fuck your privileged 'no one makes nice small-talk' shit.
I get this. I think my generation is the one that started this trend. I'm 50 and I was definitely taught as a young woman that manners were superficial and small talk was just a form of lying. So now people think they have to be authentic all the time. You have to relearn that maner and small talk are a pleasant way of interacting with your fellow human. Of course, you have to believe that being pleasant is worthwhile
Unbeliaombhable.
Oh yeah James, then, like, you'll never understand what good ol' Garth was singin' 'bout 'ere 'en:
"Ireland"
They say mother earth is breathing
With each wave that finds the shore
Her soul rises in the evening
For to open twilights door
Her eyes are the stars in heaven
Watching o'er us all the while
And her heart it is in Ireland
Deep within the Emerald Isle
We are forty against hundreds
In someone else's bloody war
We know not why were fighting
Or what we're dying for
They will storm us in the morning
When the sunlight turns to sky
Death is waiting for its dance now
Fate has sentenced us to die
Ireland I am coming home
I can see your rolling fields of green
And fences made of stone
I am reaching out won't you take my hand
I'm coming home Ireland
Oh the captain he lay bleeding
I can hear him calling me
These men are yours now for the leading
Show them to their destiny
As I look up all around me
I see the ragged tired and torn
I tell them to make ready
'Cause we're not waiting for the morn
Ireland I am coming home
I can see your rolling fields of green
And fences made of stone
I am reaching out won't you take my hand
I'm coming home Ireland
Now the fog is deep and heavy
As we forge the dark and fear
We can hear their horses breathing
As in silence we draw near
There are no words to be spoken
Just a look to say good-bye I draw a breath and night is broken
As I scream our battle cry
Ireland I am coming home
I can see your rolling fields of green
And fences made of stone
I am reaching out won't you take my hand
I'm coming home Ireland
Yes I am home Ireland
We were forty against hundreds
I heartily agree, and it's part of why I don't think "heteronormativity" (sp? my dictionary is saying "Uh-uh, not touching that") is a dirty word. When it's not clearly understood that homosexuality is a fairly rare thing, close same-sex friendships can become problematic.
You know who is good at small talk?
Southerners. They'll talk your ear off, and not get too personal.
Thank you. This is actually true!
Although with the kids it's kind of impossible as everybody is into their cell phone all the time.
You know who is good at small talk?
Southerners.
We make small talk about everything except politics and religion.
More Americans should try it.
We went to Ireland earlier this summer. Didn't find them more chatty than the Scots or Brits. Although the bus driver to the Giants Causeway was very talky, that was kind of his job.
This may be rather obvious, but I have found that people are much friendlier to each other in environments where there are less people around. In cities people try to keep their distance for personal security. But if you are some place where you've been walking for hours and haven't seen a single person, meeting someone is a celebratory occasion. Hello! Good day! Kalimera! (Greek for good morning; Kalispera! --good afternoon/evening, etc.)
I have no trouble talking to strangers, quite candidly sharing personal insights and experiences when we both know the contact is temporary and of a short duration. On my walk yesterday I got into a conversation with a couple about a home being renovated that we all found interesting, and another conversation with a gentleman who was walking with a gorgeous Bernese Mountain Dog who had stopped suddenly and insisted on waiting until the man's wife had caught up with them, wanted to keep the pack together. This all happened in the USA. I think both examples qualify as small talk.
On the other hand I am living in an apartment with neighbors who are constantly in my personal space due to their loud inconsiderate talking (yucking it up) and that has turned me into more of a recluse. I've discovered some people in my immediate environment are not interested in having conversations to share anything of importance, but they need to hear the sound of their OWN voices. Those exchanges are never interesting and never go anywhere. The relationships are not deep or genuine, the people gossip about one another. I don't think a total stranger would put up with that level of bs, but neighbors feel obligated to service one another in that way. Again, this also qualifies as small talk which I'd call therapeutic vocalization. Expressing oneself is important for emotional health, even if what is said is completely nonsensical.
Traveling alone is hard if you have no one to talk to, especially in a large city. Like solitary confinement.
"In cities people try to keep their distance for personal security."
Sure, but not Chip.
I feel as though Chip found more overly-passionate hostilities expressed online than he has in Denver.
"...they're all very good photos. These smart phones are teaching people how to compose a photograph. How to capture the essential, how to eliminate the distracting portions. How to frame. How to create interest.
We hear that phones are making young people dumber, while here is example of phones making young people smarter, more creative. More useful. Thank you, Youngsters. I regard you as brilliant.
This photo makes me want to go there and experience this firsthand.
And while there I hope to meet people like you."
https://comonocreerendios-lem.blogspot.com/2018_07_29_archive.html
In America we have people with all kinds of personality characteristics,including the entire introvert/extrovert spectrum. In Ireland I'm guessing there's only one kind of person, which is maybe why this Irish lady concluded what she did about Americans.
"One way I know that there is no possibility of friendship between a new acquaintance and myself is if they unload personal stuff on me right out of the gate, and expect me to do the same."
Heck, I don't unload personal stuff on my friends I've known for decades!
"you know who is good at small talk?"
midgets.
Don't believe me?-- go ask one.
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