১ আগস্ট, ২০১৮

"As the day has neared for the release of blueprints for printing 3D weapons, there has been a flurry of last-minute activity and expressions of concern from US lawmakers."

"Even the president weighed in with a Tuesday morning tweet that seemed to question his own administration: 'I am looking into 3-D Plastic Guns being sold to the public. Already spoke to NRA, doesn’t seem to make much sense!'... Officials are worried that these 'ghost guns' lack serial numbers, making them untraceable by law enforcement, and that plastic weapons may be impervious to metal detectors in airports. DIY firearms may also render existing gun regulations virtually moot. People who might normally be prevented from legally owning a gun, such as convicted felons or the mentally ill, could skirt such restrictions by printing them at home. At least in theory, that is. In practice, however, it’s not quite as easy as it sounds and 3D guns, some experts say, aren’t worth the trouble or risk of a weapon blowing up in your hand."

From The Guardian.

"Ghost guns." Who thought that up?

১৩২টি মন্তব্য:

MikeR বলেছেন...

Technology may not be mature yet, but it's pretty clear that this is impossible to stop.

Humperdink বলেছেন...
এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।
Lauderdale Vet বলেছেন...

All the bad things you can do with it are already against the law, and ne'er-do-wells can toss together a more effective slamfire at Home Depot with a twenty dollar bill.

gspencer বলেছেন...

I can go to the local library and look at any number of books which contain blueprints for guns, all kinds of guns. I can make requests of the Patent Office for copies of blueprints for guns, all kinds of guns.

But we now have to suffer prior restraint of the broadest type because lefty AG from blue, blue states are having a case of the vapors. And whatever this TRO is attempting to do can't really be done since this guy's blueprints are already out there since he originally put them online back in 2013 before Obama's DOJ moved to stop him.

Jack O'Fire বলেছেন...

"Ghost guns." Who thought that up?
Alliterative poppycock for the grabbers.

2yellowdogs বলেছেন...

That wonderfully evocative and inaccurate term of art was concocted by California Assemblyman Kevin de Leon. At the time, he was inveighing against legal, home-made firearms that aren't serialized and therefore don't appear in the state's database.

California has since mandated that all home-made firearms must be registered with that state so that they can, inevitably, "collect" them one day.

Humperdink বলেছেন...

This is silly. There will be no stopping this freight train.

Speaking of plastic guns, I haven't heard the "metal detectors can't detect" crap since Dan Rather reported it decades ago, when handguns came out with plastic components, but retained the steel barrel.

buwaya বলেছেন...

Its easier and cheaper to assemble metalworking tools to make a crude gun.
Cheaper than a 3-d printer, and the gun would be more effective than anything made in plastic.

All you need is water pipe and shotgun shells.

Chuck বলেছেন...

Althouse, "ghost gun" is not an invention of a rabidly left-wing writer for the Guardian. "Ghost gun" is a term that lots of people on all sides of the gun debate and the firearms industry have been using in an era when we can all buy lots of interchangeable parts for something like an AR-15 on the internet or by mail order, without any real regulation. Because the parts, individually, are not a firearm and can't be made to fire a bullet because of the lack of one essential component which gun guys would refer to as a "lower receiver." And that part IS regulated, and DOES bear a serial number.

I could go on at greater length, but my point is that "ghost gun" is actually a widely-used, non-loaded (sorry), reasonably-accurate term for what is our subject in this instance.

And if you now feel like this was Mansplaining, I think you'd be correct.

Lauderdale Vet বলেছেন...

> "Ghost guns." Who thought that up?

I thought it was Senator Kevin De Leon who coined it, but I have not looked into it that deeply.

Michael K বলেছেন...

Years ago, I remember "zip guns" that were auto radio antenna pieces that were the same size as .22 long rifle cartridges. A wood handle and a heavy rubber band for the hammer.

The hysteria when Glock began making pistols that had plastic parts.

It is a combination of ignorance and left wing politics.

There used to be walking sticks that held a shotgun shell. I have a sword cane with a 3 foot sword inside.

chuck বলেছেন...

> "Ghost guns." Who thought that up?

Some Democrat in California. IIRC, the plans have been floating around for a couple of years. Good luck shutting down Makers meetings and hardware stores. Personally, I'd like to have a Kentucky Rifle

Michael K বলেছেন...

my point is that "ghost gun" is actually a widely-used, non-loaded (sorry), reasonably-accurate term for what is our subject in this instance.

Chuck moves in ghost gun circles. The circles I move in with my CCW have never heard the term.

Chuck বলেছেন...

Check it out, Althousians. I think that police and legal gun manufacturers all refer to "ghost guns" on occasion.

Does Althouse own a gun? Does Meade? How familiar are they, with the disassembly and re-assembly of something like a Glock, or an AR-15, or a Browning 870? Or, uh, with the use of them in any context be it hunting, home defense or anything else?

Lauderdale Vet বলেছেন...

> a widely-used, non-loaded (sorry), reasonably-accurate term
> for what is our subject in this instance.

Perhaps in the vein of Yankee Doodle. I'm still looking for actual references in use before Senator De Leon's presser, but I'm just casually reading during my lunch break.

rhhardin বলেছেন...

Internet plan for prior restraint injunction available.

Skippy Tisdale বলেছেন...

Even if the gun itself is 100% plastic, the bullets aren't, which would set off a metal detector.

Michael K বলেছেন...

the gun would be more effective than anything made in plastic.

I have not read about Chuck's "ghost gun" idea but metal parts are the most commonly made printed parts.

Sintering is used to fuse the object from metal powder delivered by the printer. Jet engine parts are one example.

A few links to 3D printing.

https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/55377.html

https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/36470.html

Chuck বলেছেন...

So here is the Department of Justice and ATF referring to "ghost guns" in a press release:
https://www.atf.gov/news/pr/kissimmee-man-sentenced-five-years-prison-manufacturing-over-200-ghost-guns-without-license


Here is a local police department in California referring to a "ghost gun" used in a crime:
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Cops-Walnut-Creek-murder-suicide-suspect-used-6424702.php


Here is the Wall Street Journal referring to "ghost guns":
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-rise-of-untraceable-ghost-guns-1515061800


Here is American Shooting Journal referring to "ghost guns":
http://americanshootingjournal.com/ghost-guns-illegal-hand-made-colt-1911-pistols/#o4e4ruw1


And there is an entire website devoted to ghost guns called, naturally, "www.ghostguns.com":
https://www.ghostguns.com/content/8-frequently-asked-questions

Tyrone Slothrop বলেছেন...

I could go on at greater length, but my point is that "ghost gun" is actually a widely-used, non-loaded (sorry), reasonably-accurate term for what is our subject in this instance.

Is this an abject lie, Chuck, or just the result of ignorance? "Ghost gun" is a term coined by Kevin Deleon, who is not coincidentally one of the most ignorant proponents of gun confiscation out there. The term is only used as a pejorative. Nobody who is actually familiar with the actual production and use of firearms would use this ooky-spooky imprecise loaded phrase.

Incidentally, it has always been legal to build firearms for one's personal use.

HoodlumDoodlum বলেছেন...

That's prior restraint, straight up, isn't it?

The info is already public. These specific FILES are already public.
The Media and our lawmakers are so profoundly ignorant--and nevertheless so loud and proud--about anything firearm-related it's almost beyond parody.

HoodlumDoodlum বলেছেন...

Irony: I bet most Americans didn't know it is legal (federally) to make your own firearms for your own use. Millions more will now know due to this idiotic hysteria!

rehajm বলেছেন...

Nobody who is actually familiar with the actual production and use of firearms would use this ooky-spooky imprecise loaded phrase

He's gone as far as applying for a trademark for the term “Ghost Gun," a move that could limit how gun control advocates are legally able to use it.

So the idea here was every time one of these politicians used the term Ghost Gun™ they owed the libertarian money. Heh.

Tyrone Slothrop বলেছেন...

"...something like a Glock, or an AR-15, or a Browning 870?"

Chuck, there's no such thing as a Browning 870. There are various Brownings, and the Remington 870, but no Browning 870. Ignoramus.

Yancey Ward বলেছেন...
এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।
Yancey Ward বলেছেন...

Talk about trying to put toothpaste back into the tube. Any effort to stop the spread of such electronic blueprints is idiotic and a waste of time and resources.

Yancey Ward বলেছেন...

The very best that could be done is to prosecute those who use the blueprints to actually make "ghost guns", but that will be less successful than prosecuting people for stealing legal weapons and reselling them on the black market.

Chuck বলেছেন...

Tyrone Slothrop said...
"...something like a Glock, or an AR-15, or a Browning 870?"

Chuck, there's no such thing as a Browning 870. There are various Brownings, and the Remington 870, but no Browning 870. Ignoramus.


Right! My bad! I have actually made that mistake before. See, I actually own a Remington 870 for home defense (and ducks; different barrel), plus two Brownings (pump and Lightning O/U). Your correction is noted and appreciated!

Chuck বলেছেন...

Oh and here is the lobbying/activist arm of the NRA, using the term "ghost guns" (they leave it in scare quotes, which is fine by me):

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20180227/ca-lawmakers-promote-10-new-gun-control-bills

Hagar বলেছেন...

I read that Congress passed a statute in Reagan's time to outlaw "untraceable" plastic guns, so they are already illegal.

Anyway, this "3-d printing at home" is BS. The 3-d printers that can do this are not made by H-P, and the chemicals for the plastic are not available from Ace Hardware.
These days, they also "3-d print" residential houses - but oviously not with H-P printers.

The world has not been troubled by people making Sten guns at home, yet competent farmer blacksmiths built them in quantity for "the Resistance" during WWII. Nor have the "zip guns" referred to by Dr. K been a problem despite all the hoopla about them back in the '50's (or '40's?)

HoodlumDoodlum বলেছেন...

Chuck said...
Althouse, "ghost gun" is not an invention of a rabidly left-wing writer for the Guardian. "Ghost gun" is a term that lots of people on all sides of the gun debate and the firearms industry have been using in an era when we can all buy lots of interchangeable parts for something like an AR-15 on the internet or by mail order, without any real regulation. Because the parts, individually, are not a firearm and can't be made to fire a bullet because of the lack of one essential component which gun guys would refer to as a "lower receiver." And that part IS regulated, and DOES bear a serial number.

I could go on at greater length, but my point is that "ghost gun" is actually a widely-used, non-loaded (sorry), reasonably-accurate term for what is our subject in this instance.


Partial credit, Chuck, but incomplete. The part of a weapon that's legally a firearm varies by weapon/design. On an AR-15 it's the lower receiver, yes. That's not the case with all firearms, though.

The dumb term "ghost gun" doesn't really refer to most parts guns (most of which are made using serialized/commercial firearms that are modified) but to those made using commercially-available "80% lowers" or the equivalent--the Feds ruled that if you sell a chunk of metal that is machined such that it's more than 80% finished like a firearm then it's considered a firearm itself, so if you sell a chunk of metal (or plastic, whatever) that's exactly 80% finished (that requires machining equal to 20% or more to be equivalent to the firearm) then it's just a chunk of metal and not regulated as anything else. Purchasers can use subtractive manufacturing/machining methods to finish the chunk of metal and turn it into a firearm.

80% AR lowers have been available for years and 80% Glock pistol lowers have been available since 2010 or so. Weapons created using that method were called "ghost guns" by anti-gun rights people. Using additive manufacturing/3D printing to build weapons from scratch is a newer method and the results of that process are also now being called "ghost guns."

It IS a loaded term. People on the pro-gun side don't typically use the phrase. We'd probably call it a legal homemade firearm or say "so called ghost gun," something like that.

Mansplaining^2.

Wince বলেছেন...

Sexy: I once made a "ghost gun" out of clay at a potter's wheel while Unchained Melody was playing on the jukebox.

MadTownGuy বলেছেন...

Australia's Gun Laws Can't Keep Up With 3D Printed Guns.

Hagar বলেছেন...

Anybody see Clint Eastwood's "In Line of Fire"? That's the kind of weapon you can build with "3-d printing" and - obviously - also on your home workbench with existing materials and handyman skills.

n.n বলেছেন...

"Ghost" guns cannot be easily detected with current technology. This is similar to human life that cannot be easily detected early in our evolution, but is nonetheless scientifically known, and, in fact, self-evident.

Jim at বলেছেন...

Are there any gun users on this thread who would actually use one of these things, let alone spends thousands of dollars creating one?

Yeah. That's what I thought.

This week's outrage!!!! from the left.
Next week, it will be something else.

It's beyond tedious at this point.

Jim at বলেছেন...

BTW, Bob Ferguson is my Attorney General.

He is an asshole of the highest order.

Yancey Ward বলেছেন...

25 years from now, there will be millions of home 3D printers that can make guns of any kind you can buy today at Dicks or Walmart. Good luck stopping that with laws.

Michael K বলেছেন...

Blogger Hagar said...
Anybody see Clint Eastwood's "In Line of Fire"? That's the kind of weapon you can build with "3-d printing" and - obviously - also on your home workbench with existing materials and handyman skills.


Yes, I thought of that immediately. Good flick.

bagoh20 বলেছেন...

The "We-have-to-do-something" brigade is poised and ready to pose, but in the end the "we-have-to-do-something" brigade will do nothing.

Since there is nothing that can be done about this non-problem, I guess posing is the best one can do, and it's relatively harmless, but hey at least we can fight about it for a while and that's really all we wanted anyway, so this is awesome news!

With that in mind, let me just say: Fuck you assholes.

Michael K বলেছেন...


"...something like a Glock, or an AR-15, or a Browning 870?"

Chuck, there's no such thing as a Browning 870.


Chuck is the resident non-expert on most things.

How many trial lawyer Republicans has anyone met ?

Chuck বলেছেন...

HoodlumDoodlum - No, I still say that "ghost gun" is a widely-used term. It is a handy term for what we are talking about. And to hammeer that point, I have already cited all the sources who have used the term, from the NRA to the DoJ to the ATF to police to the Wall Street Journal to countless others.

What might be a better, more handy term, than "ghost gun"? You tried, and you really couldn't do it. "Legal homemade firearm"? Yeah, right. You immediately returned back to "ghost gun" but insisted that it be "so-called ghost gun," and I already said that people can put the term in scare quotes all they want and it is fine with me. I like it better, in scare quotes! I really do! We both recognize that "ghost gun" is not a technical term, nor a trade name, nor a specific type or model of firearm. What it is, is a really handy informal terminology.

bagoh20 বলেছেন...

I carry a whole box of plastic knives in my car in case you were thinking of stalking me. I'm a pretty dangerous dude.

Chuck বলেছেন...

Michael K said...

"...something like a Glock, or an AR-15, or a Browning 870?"

Chuck, there's no such thing as a Browning 870.

Chuck is the resident non-expert on most things.

How many trial lawyer Republicans has anyone met ?


How many defense-side trial lawyers are NOT Republicans?

Jim at বলেছেন...

Anybody see Clint Eastwood's "In Line of Fire"?

I, too, immediately thought of that. It was a good flick, and whenever we stay in LA it's at the Bonaventure ... where they filmed a lot of it. Always fun to walk through the scenes.

Michael K বলেছেন...

80% AR lowers have been available for years

My younger son bought two AR 15 lowers before the California ban went effective in 2017. He has since finished them.

His older brother is a trial lawyer and you know what that means.

Ignorance is Bliss বলেছেন...

People who might normally be prevented from legally owning a gun, such as convicted felons or the mentally ill, could skirt such restrictions by printing them at home.

The restriction on legally owning a gun cannot be skirted by 3D printing your gun. You would still not legally own the 3D printed gun.

A restriction on legally owning a gun does not prevent you from owning a gun. It just reduces the sources from which you can buy. Chances are, if you did something that prevents you from legally owning a gun, and you are willing to illegally own a gun, you would have no trouble figuring out where to illegally buy a gun.

Michael K বলেছেন...

LLR Chuck is going on and on about the left wing term "ghost gun" which, being a Republican and gun owner, I had never heard.

I'm sure LLR Chuck also uses "assault weapon" for a single barrel shotgun like all his fellow LLR Republicans, like DiFi.

Jupiter বলেছেন...

Chuck said...
"... my point is that "ghost gun" is actually a widely-used, non-loaded (sorry), reasonably-accurate term for what is our subject in this instance."

Chuckles is right about this one. I own a ghost gun, an AR-15. The idea is that, since you made it in your garage (legally, BTW), there is no record of its existence, and it has no serial number. It can't be traced. And ghostgunner.net will sell you a CNC mill to build one out of something a lot more serviceable than plastic. Of course, you don't need to spend that kind of money. You can buy a partial lower and a jig that lets you finish it with nothing but a power drill. Get some!

Ignorance is Bliss বলেছেন...

As the day has neared for the release of blueprints for printing 3D weapons

3D guns are much more dangerous then 2D guns. On the other hand, 2D knives are more dangerous than 3D knives, being infinitely sharp...


(And if you're too stupid to understand that 3D is describing the printing, not the weapon, than why should I waste my time reading the rest of your article?)

Big Mike বলেছেন...

Or someone can simply go out and buy a gun, legally or otherwise, more cheaply and easily than building their own, said Jeremiah Blasi

The members of inner city gangs are not buying guns legally, but neither are they exhibiting much difficulty acquiring them on the street. I cannot picture an inner city gang buying a $10,000 3-D printer when they can.buy one for a lot less, or steal one essentially for free.

Chuck বলেছেন...

Michael K said...
LLR Chuck is going on and on about the left wing term "ghost gun" which, being a Republican and gun owner, I had never heard.

I'm sure LLR Chuck also uses "assault weapon" for a single barrel shotgun like all his fellow LLR Republicans, like DiFi.


You could have just asked me. Instead, you wanted to make a presumption about me and be wrong again. What is it with that? What is wrong with you? I don't accept the term "assault weapon" for much of anything, legally. I don't think it is a good or useful term. In most cases, it conceals more than it describes. And ordinary shotgun would ever be categorized by me as anything like an "assault weapon" which I don't like to begin with.

Chuck বলেছেন...

Jupiter said...
Chuck said...
"... my point is that "ghost gun" is actually a widely-used, non-loaded (sorry), reasonably-accurate term for what is our subject in this instance."

Chuckles is right about this one. I own a ghost gun, an AR-15. The idea is that, since you made it in your garage (legally, BTW), there is no record of its existence, and it has no serial number. It can't be traced. And ghostgunner.net will sell you a CNC mill to build one out of something a lot more serviceable than plastic. Of course, you don't need to spend that kind of money. You can buy a partial lower and a jig that lets you finish it with nothing but a power drill. Get some!


So in addition to "www.ghostguns.com," there is also a "ghostguns.net"?

Hey, you are totally right! And ghostguns.net even has their own ghost logo!

So it wasn't some left-wing journalist or anti-gun activist who forced it on those gun hobbyists! They adopted it as their own and trademarked it as much as they could!

GhostGuns.net

lol. Althouse comments pages. Chuck Derangement Syndrome is pretty sweet today!

Jupiter, I thank you very much.

Hagar বলেছেন...

Take down a 1911 and take a guess at what kind of alloy and grade each part is made from.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent বলেছেন...

"All the bad things you can do with it are already against the law, and ne'er-do-wells can toss together a more effective slamfire at Home Depot with a twenty dollar bill"

This. Zip guns have a long and storied history.

"Even if the gun itself is 100% plastic, the bullets aren't, which would set off a metal detector"

If the gun is 100% plastic, it will likely explode in your hand. Even a smokeless powder .22 builds great pressures in a confined space. And forget about anything centerfire. Doubly forget about any centerfire rifle. And speaking of rifling, forget about that as well as the idea of plastic rifling is ludicrous. I've fired shot-out barreled handguns at
very close-range targets and the ability of the bullet to apparently travel sideways is nearly supernatural.

MadisonMan বলেছেন...

Guns printed on 3-D Printers are obviously used to carjack you after the thieves fail -- you might say are foiled -- at hijacking the radio signal from your key fob.

Hagar বলেছেন...

Anyway, as long as it is easier and cheaper - at least in the cities - to illegally buy guns on the street rather than from legal gun shops, I do not think we have much to fear from "ghost guns" made with very expensive machinery and hard to get materials of whatever kind - high tech or low tech.

Owen বলেছেন...

rhhardin: "Internet plan for prior restraint injunction available."

Another thread-winner. Your prize will be mailed to you shortly.

Hagar বলেছেন...

And "real" guns by reputable manufcturers, that is.

HoodlumDoodlum বলেছেন...

Chuck said...What it is, is a really handy informal terminology.

Sure, but that doesn't mean it isn't a loaded term. It is! The scare quotes are used to indicate the use of a loaded term! The manufacturers/gun enthusiasts using the term for their company name are trading on the fact that it's a loaded term--they're using the loaded nature of the term to their advantage (simultaneously in an ironic sense & as a come-on/norm-defying/bad boy marketing angle).

I'm not disputing that it's in common use. I am disputing that it's a loaded term--you said it isn't, but it is. If I really cared about the "real" origin of the term I'd research to prove that it was put into common use by people who disapprove of homemade firearms but I don't think that matters--it is, today, a loaded term.

HoodlumDoodlum বলেছেন...

Example: the term "thug" to refer to a menacing person and/or criminal-seeming individual is in common use. But it is also a loaded term, especially when applied to an individual who appears to be a member of a racial minority. It's possible for a term to be both commonly used AND loaded.

tcrosse বলেছেন...

As the day has neared for the release of blueprints for printing 3D weapons

In the future, there will be 4D weapons.

HoodlumDoodlum বলেছেন...

Funny to see the "information wants to be free" and "spreading leaked important secret info is your patriotic duty" crowd on the Left now suddenly shouting that basic fucking blueprints for rudimentary firearms must be suppressed & kept secret using the full force of the State at all costs.
Well, not funny--expected.

Owen বলেছেন...

Whatever happened to the idea of gluing cartridge-like objects (in say a 10x10 array) on a hard surface (like a Claymore) and firing them in some general direction? Who even needs a barrel or a mechanical trigger? We are captives of industrial history here.

Point being, again, that there is no stopping this kind of ingenuity.

Might as well try to burn all the books that explain how to make gunpowder. And steel.

HoodlumDoodlum বলেছেন...

For fun: $5 Homemade Shotguns Exchanged at $100 Gun Buy Back

Ghostly!

HoodlumDoodlum বলেছেন...

Because I like you nice people (lyrics NSFW):

YT: Northstar ft RZA "4 Sho Sho" (Ghost Dog sndtrk)

I own one, ghost gun, briefcase in this equilibrium
It's the killa on your block, melodic flux
War flock, of perfected, dead it, bloods chop it up
And the birds of a feather, fly together
Intellaced moving mo' murder messages of me and Leatha Face
I'm your retainer, your perfect stranger
36th Chamber, Wu-Tang banga

Char Char Binks, Esq. বলেছেন...

The term "hoodlum" is also loaded, as are its variants, "hood" and "hoodie". It's interesting that "thug" was never a racial term until Blacks abandoned "gangsta" and "pimp" as their preferred label FOR THEMSELVES, and now they crybully about it.

Jupiter বলেছেন...

"It's possible for a term to be both commonly used AND loaded."

You mean, like "Hoodlum"?

The reason it's a "ghost" is that it can't be traced. Like a ghost. Ever try to trace a ghost? And if it is important to you, that after you are killed by a misunderstood youth with a stolen weapon, the police should be able to find the rightful owner and return it to him, then you will of course see the problem with untraceable weapons. Too bad they can't trace the misunderstood youths, but that's beyond the capabilities of current law enforcement technology.

Also, if you have plans to take everyone's guns away, you can certainly see why it would be useful to have a record of every gun purchase. Of course, almost all gun nuts are also boaters, and we take our guns with us when we go boating. So that list may not be as useful as the gun-grabbers imagine.

HoodlumDoodlum বলেছেন...

Owen said...Whatever happened to the idea of gluing cartridge-like objects (in say a 10x10 array) on a hard surface (like a Claymore) and firing them in some general direction? Who even needs a barrel or a mechanical trigger? We are captives of industrial history here.

Wiki: Metal Storm Inc

JohnAnnArbor বলেছেন...

The thing looks less dangerous than most fireworks. It would be dangerous to the user, too (whoops, flaw in the plastic, shatters on first try).

HoodlumDoodlum বলেছেন...

Char Char Binks said...The term "hoodlum" is also loaded, as are its variants, "hood" and "hoodie". It's interesting that "thug" was never a racial term until Blacks abandoned "gangsta" and "pimp" as their preferred label FOR THEMSELVES, and now they crybully about it.

I don't think hoodlum is a common term today, but loaded, sure.
While "thug" wasn't originally a racial term referring to African Americans but it did originally have a strong racial component: Wiki: Thugee

Owen বলেছেন...

Hoodlum Doodlum: Thanks for Metal Storm reference. I had envisioned (maybe even from sci-fi reading) an array of single-shot munitions, whereas these guys have gone for much bigger game. I was impressed by this at the Wiki reference:

"Metal Storm has created a 36-barreled stacked projectile volley gun, boasting the highest rate of fire in the world. The prototype array demonstrated a firing rate of just over 1 million rounds per minute for a 180-round burst of 0.01 seconds (~27,777 rpm / barrel). Firing within 0.1 seconds from up to 1600 barrels (at maximum configuration) the gun claimed a maximum rate of fire of 1.62 million RPM and creating a dense wall (0.1 m between follow-up projectiles) of 24,000 projectiles.[9][10][11]"

Who needs grenades or shotguns when you can put 24K projectiles downrange at 1.62 Million Rounds/min? Reminds me a little of the weapon in "Black Sunday."

Jess বলেছেন...

I doubt anyone that has a 3-D printer needs to use a firearm for a crime. Still, even if they did, there are plenty of laws that address the illegal activity.

As far a mass producing, such things require money, licensing, and registration, which again, are addressed by laws already in effect.

Meanwhile, in Chicago, it's apparent the criminals don't need laws, or plastic guns.

Drago বলেছেন...

"Might as well try to burn all the books that explain how to make gunpowder. And steel."

You cant "make steel"! Remember, post 9-11, when the lefties, the Party of Lysenkoism-Science, told us that fire cant melt steel?

Good times, good times.

kwenzel বলেছেন...

I own a 3-D printer that is perfectly suited for making, er, ghost guns - especially when they start out as an 80% lower receiver. That's because it prints air, not plastic. It's a Bridgeport Series I j-head mill, made in 1973. With the lathe that sits next to it, I'm sure I could build something from scratch that would be safer to shoot than a 3D-printed plastic firearm... but I'm not sure why I would want to, since using it to finish an 80% lower is trivial.

(I got a really good deal on that mill; it was less than plenty of decent 3-D printers. The tooling I've bought over the years for the mill, well, that's another matter...)

Bilwick বলেছেন...

There's a funny item about this on today's Instapundit, via Charles W. Cooke.

"I'm desperately working to ensure that the president can engage in prior restraint of online information--specifically so that people can't make weapons at home."
"I see. What do you call yourself?"
"The Resistance!"

Michael K বলেছেন...

You could have just asked me. Instead, you wanted to make a presumption about me and be wrong again. What is it with that?

Chuck, you swan around here with constant Trump hate like the loony lefties. trumpit and Inga are two of your best buds politically.

If you don't want blowback, try posting comments that are not right out of the DNC playbook.

Maybe it's an example of great minds thinking alike but you sure sound like you are on the DNC mailing list.

Kevin বলেছেন...

People who are good at metalwork, or who later owned CNC machines could always make their own guns.

They still can today. They won't be registered. And the government isn't talking about it.

Bad Lieutenant বলেছেন...

Chuck said...

Does Althouse own a gun? Does Meade?

WOULDN'T YOU LIKE TO KNOW!!!!!

Kevin বলেছেন...

What's really amusing are the people who say if Roe v. Wade is repealed there will be back alley abortions, yet if guns are outlawed everyone will be forced to turn them in.

Human nature, it seems, works only on one side of the political spectrum.

PS: why the abortions would be performed in back alleys rather than in the privacy of your own home never seems to occur to the howling masses.

Darrell বলেছেন...

"I am sounding an alarm that come Aug. 1, America is going to get a lot less safe when it comes to the gut-wrenching epidemic of gun violence," Schumer said. "Ghost guns are not only scary, they're outright dangerous in the way they can mimic the look and the capacity of a hardened, fully semiautomatic weapon--Chuck Schumer

Chuck Schumer? No wonder our Chuck is dying on this hill. Tell me about "hardened, fully semiautomatic weapons" Chuck. You're the expert on such ephemera.

Chuck বলেছেন...

Michael K said...
You could have just asked me. Instead, you wanted to make a presumption about me and be wrong again. What is it with that?

Chuck, you swan around here with constant Trump hate like the loony lefties. trumpit and Inga are two of your best buds politically.

If you don't want blowback, try posting comments that are not right out of the DNC playbook.

Maybe it's an example of great minds thinking alike but you sure sound like you are on the DNC mailing list.


You should just read better, and think more.

I am on record as having been a virtual fanboy, for Justice Scalia, Justice Thomas, then Justice Gorsuch, and now the nominated Judge Kavanaugh. I written against Lawrence, Windsor, Obergefell and Arizona Redistricting Commission, and in favor of Citizens United, Heller and McDonald. I have been praising Governors Scott Walker, Rick Snyder and John Kasich. I have praised Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan. I've criticized the ACA, and said that I never voted for Obama. (Check with Althouse on that one.) I've said that Dick Durbin and the Democrats on the Judiciary Committee had been rotten and dishonest in their work.

And so it should have meant something, when I took Dick Durbin's side in the "shithole countries" controversy. I have no doubt that Trump said it. And absolutely no one can have any doubt that Judge Gorsuch really did say that he was left feeling disheartened and demoralized by Trump's nasty trashtalk about federal judges. And that Senator Blumenthal was right about that.

See, it all comes down to Trump. Trump is the one thing that has made me a pariah here. That is, my criticism of Trump. And you would have known that if you had been paying attention. You should have known that. You should pay much better attention. Lots of people who never sided with Democrats and who can't seriously be accused of being Democrat sympathizers are now actually getting those accusations because they criticize Trump.

I really hope that someday, your support of Trump leaves you feeling sick. Doctor, heal thyself.

Darrell বলেছেন...

How many of you think Chuck is a serial farter?
Raise your hands.

Chuck বলেছেন...

Bad Lieutenant said...
Chuck said...

Does Althouse own a gun? Does Meade?

WOULDN'T YOU LIKE TO KNOW!!!!!


I care very little, deep down. But one thing in the gun debate is that I always like to know if a debating participant actually knows anything personally about guns. It's not a requirement to debate, of course. But on the pro-gun side of the debate, we know that our opponents often know very little about guns and make fundamental errors about "automatic" weapons, and "high powered" "assault rifles", et cetera.

Kevin বলেছেন...

I written against Lawrence...

And there it is. Eventually Chuck gets around to Scalia and Lawrence, no matter the topic of the thread.

Kevin বলেছেন...

But on the pro-gun side of the debate,

On the pro-gun side of the debate we don't do anything as stupid as ask people to state what guns they may or may not own for anyone to collect that information now or in the future.

Mike (MJB Wolf) বলেছেন...

Yep I just downloaded an AR-15 and am waiting for it to dry. Just to make sure it was undetectable I downloaded the 3D-printable cartridges with stealth projectiles from Remington-at-Home. Sweet!

The Godfather বলেছেন...

The plastic 3d-printable handgun is called the "Liberator", same as the single-shot metal pistol the Allies provided to the Resistance in WW II. I don't suppose that's a coincidence.

BTW, us gun nuts might as well admit it, Chuck won the "ghost gun" exchange here. He isn't right often, so it does me no harm to say, Chuck, you got this one right.

Jupiter বলেছেন...

Mike said...
"Just to make sure it was undetectable I downloaded the 3D-printable cartridges with stealth projectiles from Remington-at-Home. Sweet!"

Dude, that's so passe. All us hard-core gun nuts are using modern ectoplasmic penetration systems. Completely unstoppable. Goes through ten inches of steel plate like it's not even there. Boo!

JaimeRoberto বলেছেন...

To paraphrase one of our ex-presidents, in some neighborhoods it's easier for you to buy a firearm than it is to buy a plastic gun.

Birkel বলেছেন...

This was the greatest Chuck, fopdoodle extraordinaire, self-beclowning in the history of the internet.

A more enthusiastic self-beclowning is theoretically possible. Theoretically.

What a maroon.

DRP বলেছেন...

Repeating firearms are a 19th century technology. There's no putting this horse back in the barn. An advanced hobbyist with a mill and a lathe can make a very professional firearm.

A guy with a hacksaw, files and a vise could make an open bolt sub-machine gun with muffler tubing. (which would be a violation of NFA '34) Look carefully at a STEN gun...

It's always been completely legal to manufacture a firearm for your own personal use if you are not otherwise legally prohibited from owning one. FOr that matter, it wasn't even a legal requirement for firearms to have a serial number until 1968. Utilty grade shotguns and .22 rifles from before that time are frequently non-serialized.

This 3-d technology isn't really going to be useful for making a functional firearm, so much as it is making a receiver or frame for a firearm or handgun, and then assembling it to the readily available and uncontrolled components that constitute the rest of the weapon.

Where the hype is coming from is the gun-banning Left looking for a thin edge wedge that they can use to make an inroad into more gun laws. They thought they had it with the "assault weapon" ban, but the ban did precisely nothing.

Do you know who else didn't like home-made guns? British officers. They objected to being shot at by American Militia using artisan built Pennsylvania rifles at twice or sometimes three times the range of the British Muskets.

buwaya বলেছেন...

A printed gun like that is good for a very few shots at best, and those unreliably.
Its also a bulky thing.

You can legally get a nice little concealable .380 that will work much better for the sort of things one would do with a printed gun, which in a libertarian point of view would be to oppose a tyrannical government (what else?) through assassination, but resorting to a plastic gun for that would be desperate indeed.

You can make a one-shot pipe gun that is just as concealable (or not), loaded with a 12-gauge shotshell (legal and available anywhere) that would be much more deadly at close quarters, where the printed guns would have to be used also.

Science Fiction reference for the idea, and a very modern political justification - "Weapon Shops of Isher" - A.E. van Vogt - $3.99 on Amazon Kindle btw.

The idea goes back a very long way.

buwaya বলেছেন...

"or who later owned CNC machines could always make their own guns"

Tabletop CNC machines are getting quite cheap and on the whole are more realistic ways to get into the business of illicit gunmaking, or of making more practical illicit guns.

This is only somewhat true that one can just crank them out however. Its one thing to download files to mill the parts for a gun, but its another thing to get that working reliably, with the correct steels and tooling, and then the not-trivial business of fitting machined parts into a working mechanism - that is, testing, filing, getting the right springs, etc.

And magazines are another story. That's sheet metal.

Owen বলেছেন...

Who needs a gun when you can buy a drone and load it with something explosive for a few hundred bucks? You don't need to learn to aim, you just give it the GPS.

buwaya বলেছেন...

Weapons as political protest -

P.A. Luty's Submachine Gun

PM বলেছেন...

Rappers will call it a Trey, then so will America.

buwaya বলেছেন...

" load it with something explosive"

Have you tried to make something explosive?
I have (in my wicked childhood).
This is not that easy.
Any number of would be massacre-hobbyists stumble on this part.
Its not just Islamic bombmakers frequently blowing themselves or each other up, but those that create a dozen bombs that don't work, that then resort to just shooting people. In prenty of mass shootings the perps have lots of pipe bombs that they end up not bothering with.

buwaya বলেছেন...

"Ghost gun" makers - handmade guns from the Philippines.
This is quite an old tradition there actually.

Ghost Guns

These things can be made as a "cottage industry" with simple tools.
Literally out in the jungle.
But it does require skill, which is the sticking point.

This however requires much less skill.

Homemade Shotgun Pistol

Paul বলেছেন...

Geeze man. Just get a lathe and any half way good machinist and you can make a submachine gun!! Yes like the British STEN gun of WW2.

These half-wit people who freak out over '3D guns' do not realize plastic cannot take the pressure of modern firearm ammo. That's 12000 psi on up.

This whole thing is a liberal red herring.

Fernandinande বলেছেন...

In jr high we made our own percussion cap pistols (also time delay and contact explosive rockets). A friend's Dad, who was VP of mechanical engineering for some big outfit, machined a working 2X copy of a 1911 45 cal into 90 cal, complete with ammo.

Tom বলেছেন...

I want to be damn hard to govern.

Big Mike বলেছেন...

The main problem I have with the 3D printed gun is that it would be easy and cheap to make a replica using strip plastic from a hobby shop, some plastic tubing from a hobby shop or even a hardware store, and an AR handgrip from Brownell’s or someplace like that. If someone stuck a glued together facsimile of one of those in your face while they were mugging you, would you stop and look whether it had a trigger?

The Godfather বলেছেন...

Back in the '70's (?), the brother of a friend of mine published plans for how to build a nuclear bomb. This was a political protest, like the Luty submachine guns. As I recall, the authorities were not amused. It's kind of scary to think of AntiFa or BLM going nuke. Or "The Resistance".

নামহীন বলেছেন...

A good review of the facts from National Review.

A couple of important points from the article;
"The plaintiffs’ case was fundamentally a speech case, not a gun case. The plaintiffs weren’t distributing guns, they were distributing information, and by blocking the flow of information, the Obama administration had placed a “prior restraint” on the plaintiffs’ speech. Prior restraints are among the least-favored government actions in First Amendment jurisprudence."

And, by the way, people have been making homemade guns since before the founding of the Republic. You don’t need a license to make a gun for personal use; you need one only if you make a gun for sale or distribution. Guns can be made at home easily and cheaply. Home manufacture is common (I’m close to someone who makes better ARs than any manufacturer). Oh, and technology for “undetectable” guns existed long before 3D printing — hence the need for the Undetectable Firearms Act."

Fake News?

Jupiter বলেছেন...

Paul said...

"This whole thing is a liberal red herring."

I think it was originally a libertarian red herring. The idea being, to demonstrate to the gun-grabbers that guns could always be made faster than they could be grabbed. But this misses the point. Your average wishy-squishy liberal no doubt believes that he and his will be safer when our guns have been grabbed. But the professional agitators pushing the gun-grab don't want our guns, they want the guns' owners. In prison, or better yet, shot dead on our own doorsteps. They know they can't eat the sheep until they get rid of the sheepdogs.

নামহীন বলেছেন...

I hate to keep confusing things with facts, but here are some about "ghost guns".

নামহীন বলেছেন...

Just poking around the internet I found a new Sig P320 9mm for under $550. A real firearm that will last a lifetime, holds 18 rounds, hits the target at more than 2 feet and won't blow your hand off. The best cheap 3d printer I found was $850. Why bother?

Yet, let's all run around with our hair on fire!

buwaya বলেছেন...

"Just poking around the internet I found a new Sig P320 9mm for under $550."

But its sale will be recorded and the government may eventually require you to turn it in.
If you are later determined to oppose that government and assassinate its agents it would be handy to have something they never knew about.

Kevin বলেছেন...

But its sale will be recorded and the government may eventually require you to turn it in.

The point of the 3D-printed gun is to demonstrate to all concerned that banning weapons is not practical and we should just move on from that discussion before somebody gets hurt.

Abortion can also be outlawed but we know the chemical compounds to end life and they can also be manufactured outside the government's control.

The only real fight to "end abortion" is to end government funding.

The sooner people realize the country is ungovernable, the sooner we can get about learning how to live with each other or begin the process of dividing up the country into more governable blue and red pieces.

Jupiter বলেছেন...

Not necessarily off-topic, they Freed Tommy Robinson;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3a4r_2cA4w&feature=youtu.be

todd galle বলেছেন...

It should be understood that many firearms dating before the 50s have changed hands many times. Battle bring backs from both World Wars, Korea and Vietnam, issued side arms, etc. Think about how many Lugers and P38s are available for sale, and they're enemy sidearms. No original paperwork, no government knowledge, and hiding in plain sight in collections across the US. The hobby enthusiast who builds an 80% lower AR is the least of the problem regarding who has what. I did have an unfortunate boating accident some time ago though.

buwaya বলেছেন...

These things have intrigued me for years -

Uberti Remington 1858

They are muzzle-loading black powder firearms but are not controlled or registered, even in California. They can be mail-ordered. They are likely to be far more effective and handy (though largish) than some plastic download. In their time they were perfectly effective military weapons.

Michael K বলেছেন...


Blogger Khesanh 0802 said...
Just poking around the internet I found a new Sig P320 9mm for under $550.


I got an Italian Army surplus Beretta S92 for $330. Just like French rifles, "fired once and dropped once."

My pre registration Walther PPK will stay in my gun safe. I was going to trade it but the point about confiscation reminded me why I have it.

Michael K বলেছেন...

Cap and ball pistols were a favorite. I had a couple but somehow lost them in a move.

Michael K বলেছেন...

I did have an unfortunate boating accident some time ago though.

Yes, I might have one if anything like confiscation looks likely.

todd galle বলেছেন...

I recently had a spasm and acquired a repro of an English dog lock musket, circa 1705, real pirate stuff. Looks sharp, .75 caliber. I spent the weekend loading cartridges, plain ball, ball with 3 .30 caliber small shot, and shot loads with 9 .30 caliber shot. No paperwork. I also reload, and manufactured 120 rounds of 6.5x55 Swede, and prepared 300 rounds of .308 for resizing and reloading next weekend. Many of us don't need to go through stores. I spend more at Midway USA than for car upkeep on three vehicles monthly.

Paul Zrimsek বলেছেন...

I've got my 2-D plastic gun loaded and ready in case Mr. A Square tries to break into my house.

Big Mike বলেছেন...

@Buwaya, they are enjoyable. I compete with a Remington (.36 caliber) in North-South Skirmish Association matches and I have a lot of fun. The trick with black powder is to clean the gun thoroughly as soon as possible after each use because black powder residue is corrosive. Also the general rule of thumb is that it takes about 5 minutes to fully load the cylinder of a cap and ball handgun, including capping, and about 7 or 8 minutes if you hurry. (The old jokes are still the best!)

.44 caliber is not the true muzzle bore, and you should check the true bore to determine whether it is .451" or .454". You will improve your accuracy if instead of using ball ammo you order lead round nose bullets from a reloading supplier (e.g., Midway). Use .45 ACP bullets if your bore is .451 and 200 grain .45 long Colt bullets if your bore is .454.

I don't suppose I should tell you about Kirst Konversion kits for converting the handgun from cap and ball black powder to modern .45 long Colt (smokeless) cartridges, should I?

Big Mike বলেছেন...

Oh, and don't get a black powder handgun with a brass frame. Eventually the frame distorts because of recoil and your gun becomes a lovely wall decoration. Also brass framed handguns are dangerous to try to convert to modern centerfire cartridges.

buwaya বলেছেন...

Sadly there are no black-powder friendly ranges anywhere near San Francisco, so it would be simply vanity for me.

As for cartridge conversions, I suspect it would be a California felony to do it - it would be manufacturing a firearm without obtaining a license, and if so I might as well get a license and a proper pistol.

Big Mike বলেছেন...

Is Los Gatos too far? There also seems to be an outdoor range in San Mateo.

Bob Loblaw বলেছেন...

If the gun is 100% plastic, it will likely explode in your hand.

The DD guys have a 100% plastic printed gun that works without exploding in your hand. Once. You have to unscrew and replace the barrel after every shot, so it's not super practical.

If you wanted to make an untraceable gun the most realistic option is still $20 worth of parts from your local plumbing supply store. You could even include a pretty good silencer along the lines of a Welrod.

Darkisland বলেছেন...

Hagar,

Eastwoods gun in line of fire was not 3d printed. It was cast from a two part liquid polymer.

Being monolithic, it was probably stronger than printed plastic which is a series of layers.

First 3d printer I saw was in an hp ink cartridge plant. It was love at first sight. But it cost 250m.

Most of my clients have printers of one kind or another and they are really cool.

Lasy year I bought a da Vinci jr for about $295 on Amazon.com. 6" cube envelope and I am happy as can be and highly recommend it.

If I were buying today I would buy its bigger cousin for about$100 more. It can use a variety of different plastics and has a finer resolution.

I've used Sketchup (free) for years and it prints almost directly to the da Vinci.

John Henry

Last year

Darkisland বলেছেন...

As I understand it, the only part of an ar15 that can't be purchasd anonymously is the finished lower receiver.

Unfinished "80%" lowers can be purchased anonymously. It doesn't take much to finish them.

A Bridgeport mill is very useful but it can be done with a$40 drill and some files from HoDe. No skill required.

Not as pretty or reliable perhaps but fully functional

YouTube has how to videos.

The 3d print hoohah is a load of doodlefop.

John Henry

Darkisland বলেছেন...

For those interested in 3d printing, the IMTS show is in Chicago next month. They will have a huge (20-30,000')3d printing section.

Lots of cool technologies.

Also, on the main floor, companies selling Chinese cnc Swiss lathes for $5000 or less.

You could machine a complete ar15 out of engineering plastic that would be much stronger than printig.

or machine it from a chunk of steel.

John Henry

Bad Lieutenant বলেছেন...


Chuck said...
Bad Lieutenant said...
Chuck said...

Does Althouse own a gun? Does Meade?

WOULDN'T YOU LIKE TO KNOW!!!!!


I care very little, deep down. But one thing in the gun debate is that I always like to know if a debating participant actually knows anything personally about guns. It's not a requirement to debate, of course. But on the pro-gun side of the debate, we know that our opponents often know very little about guns and make fundamental errors about "automatic" weapons, and "high powered" "assault rifles", et cetera.
8/1/18, 2:30 PM


No, see, that's the thing. Not without suffering a traumatic brain injury, could I write "Browning 870." It's just not done. That would be like a native American saying there were 57 states. You're welcome to point out any factual errors by Althouse or Meade, if you find any.

But what I think you are interested in, Chuck, is stalking, trapping, brutalizing, and murdering a retired law professor and her husband, and it would help you to work up your nerve if you believed them to be defenseless. Or, if truly committed, you'd like as much detail on their defenses as you could get, the better to overcome them.

That's what everybody here thinks of you, Chuck. That you're just that crazy and evil. No, really. If Althouse cared for guidance, I'd suggest she have a poll on the topic of you.

You like bets. I'll propose a non-monetary bet, which she might tolerate. If a sufficient number or percentage of us believe you to be sufficiently rabid, you will voluntarily leave the blog.

If not, I dunno, what would you want? For me, Drago, Birkel or some other tormentor to leave? For Ann to shut down or to post what you like? Money? Whiskey?

To be left alone by the other commenters? That sounds good. I think the silent treatment for you as the wages of victory would be quite fair to all sides.

Big Mike বলেছেন...

@John Henry, I suspect you would still need specialized tools to rifle the barrel.

buwaya বলেছেন...

There are Youtube videos (of course) on how to rifle barrels in a home shop.
It requires making your own tooling but its not really complicated.
After all people were making rifled barrels in the 16th century.

Granted that its unlikely these will be highly precise barrels.

Darkisland বলেছেন...

Nope. Buy the barrel. No registration required ad i understand it.

Buy everything else besides the receiver too.

John Henry

Darkisland বলেছেন...

Ahh I see. I said make the whole rifle originally.

I meant make the receiver from scratch.

John Henry

Unknown বলেছেন...

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