The obituary for Billy Graham is discussed in the previous post. Please use the comments section here only to discuss this wonderful conversation, which includes a debate over the rule against sexual intercourse before marriage, Woody's idea that he might convert Graham to agnosticism, and Woody and Billy's shared rejection of drugs and alcohol:
There's also a discussion of their "greatest sin." Woody makes an inconsequential joke, and Billy cops to "idolatry" (but the conversation moves on before he says exactly what god he's put before God).
I don't think the word "Jesus" (or "Christ") ever comes up. Graham is elegantly and discreetly inclusive.
February 21, 2018
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48 comments:
"Graham is elegantly and discreetly inclusive."
Correct. Because for Christians being inclusive means having to leave out what matters most to them.
Given Allen's current woes which stem directly from his laissez-faire attitudes toward sex, one wonders if he regrets his flippant rejection of Graham's opinions on the matter.
Without trying the clip, I remember the line "might be no good in bed," as the argument for premarital sex, working from my memory of the original TV interview.
My feeling was that Graham was doing his be-nice act, and Woody was trying for humorous counters to religious platitudes.
Great find!
Back in '69, Woody was not yet crazy, neurotic or creepy (or at least, the public was unaware of said foibles).
He was quirky, intelligent and insightful (in my opinion.)
It's a good test of sustainability for one's philosophy. Graham went on to live 49 more years, doing the lord's work, passing on his wisdom to his son, Franklin. Allen, now age, 82 or so, well, kinda went off the rails with his Mia Farrow/Dylan Farrow/Soon Ye Previn weirdness. Sure, he's made a lot of movies the past 20 years, but most are inconsequential crap.
The last good movie Woody made was Crimes and Misdemeanors (1989).
Graham 1, Allen 0
I like that Woody goes for the cheap and obvious laughs, and that Graham can banter just as easily.
Those chairs though. Eesh.
Because for Christians being inclusive means having to leave out what matters most to them.
Sebastien, that's an excellent observation.
Will everybody rememeber where they were when they heard that Billy Graham died.
Somebody interviewed in the news makes the claim.
You can be Christian and take it all as literary turns. Getting the point would be the criterion.
That was awesome!!!
A real reminder of what TV once was and could be. And a real indictment of our current media reality.
It's Firing Line with Woody Allen instead of William F. Buckley!!!
Graham is an elegant man and a gracious Christian.
It makes perfect sense that the leftwing theocracy will mock and belittle him.
Here’s the clip of Billy Graham in The Crown.
Althouse said...
"Billy cops to "idolatry" (but the conversation moves on before he says exactly what god he's put before God)."
I often think how comforting life must have been for early man because he believed in a powerful, benevolent Creator who looked after all things. Imagine his disappointment when he saw his wife putting on weight. Contemporary man, of course, has no such peace of mind. He finds himself in the midst of a crisis of faith. He is what we fashionably call "alienated." He has seen the ravages of war, he has known natural catastrophes, he has been to singles bars. My good friend Jacques Monod spoke often of the randomness of the cosmos. He believed everything in existence occurred by pure chance with the possible exception of his breakfast, which he felt certain was made by his housekeeper.
Naturally belief in a divine intelligence inspires tranquility. But this does not free us from our human responsibilities. Am I my brother's keeper? Yes. Interestingly, in my case I share that honor with the Prospect Park Zoo. Feeling godless then, what we have one is made technology God. And yet can technology really be the answer when a brand new Buick, driven by my close associate, Nat Zipsky, winds up in the window of Chicken Delight causing hundreds of customers to scatter? My toaster has never once worked properly in four years. I follow the instructions and push two slices of bread down in the slots and seconds later they rifle upward. Once they broke the nose of a woman I loved very dearly. Are we counting on nuts and bolts and electricity to solve our problems? Yes, the telephone is a good thing—and the refrigerator—and the air conditioner. But not every air conditioner. Not my sister Henny's, for instance. Hers makes a loud noise and still doesn't cool. When the man comes over to fix it, it gets worse. Either that or he tells her she needs a new one. When she complains, he says not to bother him. This man is truly alienated. Not only is he alienated but he can't stop smiling. The trouble is, our leaders have not adequately prepared.
Woody Allen
- My Speech to the Graduates, NYT 1979
"I don't think the word "Jesus" (or "Christ") ever comes up."
@7:54, apparently quoting someone who had temporal lobe epilepsy.
"Graham is elegantly and discreetly inclusive."
About like a Muslim - the worst sin is not having one god. (4:55) Not having one god is worse than killing people.
the worst sin is not having one god.
Some people actually believe that, which is probably one reason that Allen claimed to be an agnostic when he was an atheist.
"Because for Christians being inclusive means having to leave out what matters most to them."
I don't get it. Sorry if I'm dense.
While not a superfan of Graham's approach, it's obvious that Allen has little to no background in any academic (or otherwise) Philosophy, let alone Theology (Jewish or Christian, or even honestly Agnostic). Allen's life seems to revolve around the almighty orgasm. Pretty sad in retrospect.
What a wonderful clip. Thank you, Ann: I never would have encountered that on my own!
Woody here is the guy that I was a fan of: skeptical, aware of the absurdity both of himself and of life, and trying to find the laugh in it. A lot of it was an act, but he was very convincing. I don't know that much about the Rev. Graham, but I suspect that what we saw of him was also his persona. They were both very good at pretending to be who they wanted to be.
You can say what you want about Allen's parenting skills, but his children never went on to mock Islam or LGBT rights, so advantage Allen. Allen was particularly close to his daughter and passed on some of his wisdom to her.
Allen was particularly close to his daughter and passed on some of his wisdom to her.
Liquid wisdom in the form of GATTAGAACCGGATTCAGATGA...
Everybody knew that Woody Allen was witty and clever, but Billy Graham gave as good he got.
And its quite a contrast between Woody Allen's slouching, furtive, and cynical demeanor, and Billy Graham's upright, clear-eyed, and optimistic bearing.
"Without trying the clip, I remember the line "might be no good in bed," as the argument for premarital sex, working from my memory of the original TV interview."
I think Woody said if you married a woman without test driving her first, you might find out you were stuck with a "yoyo." He compared it to getting a learner's permit before a driver's license, which makes no sense, because a driver's license doesn't limit you to one car. I guess the idea is the woman is the driver and she should be allowed to try to drive but then denied the right to drive if she's no good. The analogy he's groping for is test driving a car you're considering buying, which makes the woman into an object. Of course, the man is an object for her too. She might not want to buy the car that he is.
What that whole discussion leaves out is that sex outside of the commitment of marriage is different psychologically, which is what Graham touched upon. A young woman might be a completely different sort of person if she accommodates to years of sexual experience than if she waits for marriage and only has intercourse will all the elaborate security and care that goes into forming a marriage relationship.
But it is a disaster (in all likelihood) to marry someone and find out you're not sexually attracted to each other, but there are other ways to figure that out than to have sexual intercourse. In fact, it can be extremely sexually satisfying to do precisely those things.
"And its quite a contrast between Woody Allen's slouching, furtive, and cynical demeanor, and Billy Graham's upright, clear-eyed, and optimistic bearing."
Also BG is very handsome and sexually alluring, while WA is pretty ugly and seems creepy sexually. "Furtive" is exactly the word.
WA admits it. He questions whether God could be, as BG says, "perfect," because he (WA) looks in the mirror. BG assures him that within God's plan for every single person, WA is perfect. So there's a reason WA looks like that. God knows.
There is a word for believing in something that isn't there, or isn't true: delusional. Religion is one human endeavor that gets a pass in society despite it being based on false, nonsensical premises such as there being a God and angels afoot. They were both good sports, and Woody, as ever, was funny. Woody is naturally smart & witty. He was homely, but could joke about it. Most talk show hosts are dull and uninspiring, and nothing to look at. Johnny Carson was quick-witted, and naturally funny, and I looked forward to his late-night TV show. I never particularly liked David Letterman's show; he just wasn't very funny, in my opinion.
There is a word for believing in something that isn't there, or isn't true: delusional.
There's a lot of it going around.
"There is a word for believing in something that isn't there, or isn't true: delusional. Religion is one human endeavor that gets a pass in society despite it being based on false, nonsensical premises such as there being a God and angels afoot."
But, we have this really old book that says it is true, so it must be! You are exactly right of course. It is amazing how these myths created to explain the unexplainable have endured into 2018. But religions are like living entities that literally evolve to stay alive. Parasites living off the indoctrinated. Very few people start indoctrinated and escape the parasite.
Great clip. I couldn't help comparing it to the BBC 4 Jordan Peterson/Cathy Newman "interview".
Media seems to have fallen a long way.
I barely escaped Mormonism myself. It took more than 35 years. It is no coincidence that most people stay with the religion they were born into. Man you were sure lucky to be born into the one with the truth!
Trumpit: "There is a word for believing in something that isn't there, or isn't true"
The Trump-Russia collusion delusion springs to mind...
BAG,
Crimes and Misdemeanors was awesome! Beyond awesome. If there has ever been anyone after Dostoevsky who managed to put the criminal mindset to print/film, it was Woody.
But now I just have to ask, at the current moment... ... ... how did he know?
And then, I finally clicked on the link. OMG Allen looks like the complete, perverted dweeb the worst of his detractors have claimed he is.
Graham says that God wants us to abstain from uncommitted sex because He wants us to be happy. Allen says he wants a test drive before he buys the car. Which of these two men do you think had the more joyful, fulfilling, and satisfying family life?
Quaestor said: "Given Allen's current woes which stem directly from his laissez-faire attitudes toward sex, one wonders if he regrets his flippant rejection of Graham's opinions on the matter."
I don't think "laissez-faire" is the expression you're looking for here (perhaps "cavalier") but, nonetheless, you have an excellent point.
I'm no "Charlie Church" but it has occurred to me that, when you find yourself at your lowest lows and very despondent, you can almost always trace your unhappiness back to some violation of the ten commandments. While some may attempt to deny it, it doesn't take a genius to find that there is value in those ten commandments.
"when you find yourself at your lowest lows and very despondent, you can almost always trace your unhappiness back to some violation of the ten commandments"
Oh please. Which version of the ten commandments? They aren't even a great set of ethical rules. Most people could create a better/more ethical list if they used their brain a bit. Most the people I know that are or were depressed were very good people who lived good, clean lives and did not deserve to have the medical condition of depression, despite the blame implied in your comment.
Brian said...
Great clip. I couldn't help comparing it to the BBC 4 Jordan Peterson/Cathy Newman "interview".
Media seems to have fallen a long way."
Yep. It's obvious that Allen and Graham didn't change each others minds (not that changes like that occur in the space of a 5 minute conversation), but they were cordial and entertaining. Allen was funny without being mean and Graham was firm but polite.
Just imagine how a minister or priest appearing on Bill Maher's show would be treated.
Woody is funny, but Billy wins the exchange in straight sets.
Man in PA wrote: I don't think "laissez-faire" is the expression you're looking for here
Many associate the expression with noninterventionist economics, as in laissez-faire capitalism. However, its meaning is broader than that. Cavalier isn't strong enough since Allen often speaks and writes of sex in a philosophic context. I used laissez-faire to underline Allen's noninterventionist attitude toward sex — no rules, no ethics except those mutually agreeable to the parties directly involved. I think that's how he would characterize it in contrast to the proscriptions of Biblical morality. Whether that produces sexual fulfillment is another question.
As a young man, Allen practiced what he preached. Now he's an old man alienated from his nearly everyone who was important to him, with only money to comfort him.
Ann Althouse said...
"Also BG is very handsome and sexually alluring, while WA is pretty ugly and seems creepy sexually. 'Furtive' is exactly the word."
I'm a little younger, so I mostly experienced BG as an older, if not elderly, preacher. As I watched this video, I was struck by how much the younger BG reminded me of BC...Bill Clinton.
(I'm not trying to suggest anything about the relative behaviors or morality of BG and BC by that remark, aside from the notion that they share a particular type of charisma that can be enormously attractive.)
Woody looked a bit intimidated, but I saw Billy Graham do that to others. Still, it was refreshing to see two people, with polar opposite views, sitting amiably next to each other, having a gracious, civilized, and funny discussion. I forgot that used to be the norm. Civility used to be the norm.
Today we'd have CNN doing reports days prior asking 'Why? Why is Woody Allen giving a stage to Billy Graham?". There would be protests (staged and paid for) to keep Billy Graham off of the show. People would threaten the network airing the show. Sponsors of the show would be boycotted. Planned Parenthood would urge Kirsten Gillibrand to make a statement about the horrors of Billy Graham's views.
CNN, MSNBC, FOX would have all had 24 hours of talking heads saying blah, blah, blah, blah, bad religious people, or bad secular people. Billy Graham would not have backed off, but Woody and his sponsors would have.
This show would not have occurred today.
I hate what we've become.
I liked it. Allen was entertaining. He went for some cheap jokes, but they were funny, and he had to do that, as a comedian, but he still gave an intelligent interview. Graham was surprisingly sharp with the comebacks, and got as many laughs as Allen.
One thing I think they both seemed to misunderstand was the idea of sexual morality, biblically speaking. Sexual immorality, specifically adultery, didn't mean pre-marital sex in the Bible, or even extra-marital sex. It meant having sex with someone else's woman, someone's wife, daughter, fiancee, his property, especially if that someone else was rich or powerful. Did King David only have one woman throughout his life? Abraham was married to Sarah, but didn't commit adultery with Hagar, even though he got her pregnant. Jacob had two wives and two concubines, and Solomon had hundreds. There are numerous other examples throughout the book.
Actually, Graham certainly knew this, but his old-time religion was a modern bowdlerization, tempered by the New Testament, of course, and even more so by all the centuries since then, into a more civilized, prettified, 20th century version of the Everlasting Word of God.
Feel free to correct me if you can.
PS. See 2:42-2:47 of the video. Compare the finger pointing and cadence with BC's "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."
Again, that's not implying anything about BG's moral behavior. It's just observing some common mannerisms.
PPS. Looking for an example of "privilege?" Notice how WA introduces BG with the "whether you agree with his point of view or not" trope, which almost never is applied to people on the Left or to openly religious people who aren't Christians. From the beginning of the interview, BG is positioned as "not one of us."
Having grown up in the Bible Belt I can remember seeing Billy Graham as a twelve-year-old when his tent came to town. This would be in the early 1950's. Can't remember if I went down front and 'got saved' but I'm sure some of my friends did. It was not that unusual.
Graham, I'm told, attended a small Bible college near where I live, whose motto was: "We not only teach you how to load the Gospel gun, we teach you how to shoot it." Or maybe that was just a joke.
My grandmother said you've got to promise to believe in God before she gave me the money to go to college. I couldn't (stayed cold silent) but have been searching ever since.
1 question, 1 comment:
- did they ever fulfill their agreement, Graham to an Allen movie and Allen to a Graham revival?
- I keep thinking about Allen's movie "Crimes and Misdemeanors". When he's at his serious best Allen deals with some good, Godly questions.
Allen introduces Graham as "provocative". Christianity is only a provocation to strident and inflexible atheists.
Graham possesses a gravitas that Allen by the nature of his schtick at the time had denied to himself, so it's not surprising that Graham may have had the best of the exchanges. More laughs for Allen, more substance for Graham.
I'm reminded of an account of an encounter Jerry Falwell had with a group of students at, I believe, Yale. The informant may have been Roger Kimball, but he said Falwell delivered the most dazzling forensic performance he had ever. The students armed with philosophy, youth and their own version of self righteousness, were unable to lay a glove on Falwell. I would like to have seen it because I was never impressed with Falwell's learning, but he may have kept that to himself in his professional life. It's not unusual for men who go forth and preach to have an exhaustive knowledge of the opposition.
I have 5 children and three grand children.
Woody's had one grand daughter.
Quite a contrast to the Cathy Newman/Jordan Peterson modern style of interview, and quite a bit more edifying as well as being genial and entertaining. It's a celebration of differences, living simultaneously but in peace and harmony, reflecting a different time and zeitgeist. Now it's all conflict and eliminationist, this vs. that, good vs. Hitler, in our televised discourse.
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