August 17, 2017

"The removal of City-owned monuments to confederate soldiers in Forest Hill Cemetery has minimal or no disruption to the cemetery itself."

"There is no disrespect to the dead with the removal of the plaque and stone," said a written statement from Madison Mayor Paul Soglin, after the removal of the memorial. My post on the subject is here, where there's been a discussion under way for a couple hours. In that time, I walked over to Forest Hill and found the Confederate’s Rest section:

P1150066

P1150068

P1150069

I had hoped that perhaps the plaque was not yet gone, because I wanted to read the text. But here's a photograph from William Cronon that shows how it looked. The text is mostly readable. The soldiers (who died as prisoners of war) are called "valiant." We're told they surrendered "after weeks of fighting under extremely difficult conditions" and that they arrived in the prison camp here in Madison "suffering from wounds, malnutrition and various diseases."
Within a few weeks 140 graves were filled, the last resting place for these unsung heroes, far from their homes in Alabama, Tennessee, Mississippi, Louisiana and Arkansas.
It's a neutral, informative account except for that word "heroes." They were called "unsung heroes," but to say "unsung heroes" is to sing — however slightly — of their heroism. "Unsung" was thus untrue, and that little bit of singing of heroism was enough to incite the passion for cutting down monuments. Don't call them heroes just because they fought hard and suffered and died!

Who are heroes? "If somebody’s a prisoner, I consider them a war hero." That's what Donald Trump said after he said "He’s not a war hero. He was a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.”

My dictionary, the OED, says "A man (or occasionally a woman) distinguished by the performance of courageous or noble actions, esp. in battle; a brave or illustrious warrior, soldier, etc." It doesn't say the man had to fight on your side, but who puts up monuments using the word "heroes" for the courageous fighters on the other side? We know the answer: Our city. We had whatever reason we had to express kind thoughts toward the men who suffered and died in our prison camp. But our city's thoughts are harsher today. To paraphrase Trump: I like people who weren't fighting for slavery. 

Here's an article from last May about veterans honoring the different sites, including Union Rest and Confederate Rest:
“You want to honor the soldiers. It doesn’t matter what side they were on,” said Carol Gannon-Hembel, who accompanied her husband, Alan Hembel, to the ceremony....

At the Confederate Rest service, Alan Zeuner and Dan Bradford, dressed in Confederate regalia, lamented the removal of the flag pole holder in front of the Confederate Rest grave site. Bradford called it a “slap in the face” to Confederate veterans who were repatriated after the war.

“It’s a part of history that is largely ignored,” Bradford said, regarding the role of Confederate soldiers in 19th-century Wisconsin history. “I want to see to it that people see it for what it really is, rather than outright lies.”

Bradford, a member of the 61st Georgia Infantry, has both Union and Confederate ancestors. He said he is a descendant of Union Army General James Shields, who is known for challenging Abraham Lincoln to a duel, prior to his presidency.

“These are just interesting little points of history,” Bradford said....

441 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   401 – 441 of 441
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

an eloquent comment, Stephen A. Meigs.

"It's just that some people seem to think that the dead should have no say."

Leftists do not. It doesn't matter to them what not only the Confederate, but the Union soldiers said, or what their families said and believed. It doesn't matter that some of those in Madison who agreed to the plaque suffered personal losses themselves during the Civil War.

All that matters to people like ARM and Ritmo and Soglin is today's political battle. Piss on what the people of Madison thought back then. Piss on their wishes and memories and hopes to heal the nation. We gotta fight Trump!

Sprezzatura said...

BTW, when I went back to find that Dick quote from Althouse, I stumbled on this:

http://www.thirdreichruins.com/memorials.htm

from Drill SGT.

Sprezzatura said...

And, I also stumbled on a much more useful use of Althouse outrage v fussing about monuments that were erected to express opposition to the increasing equality re minorities in America:

http://althouse.blogspot.com/2009/11/inconceivably-bad-monument.html

Sprezzatura said...

And I stumbled on this:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pethier/96609192/

I like it.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

exiledonmainstreet said...
All that matters to people like ARM and Ritmo and Soglin


Why does 3PB get a pass? I call foul.

Sprezzatura said...

Anywho,

I just wanted to find the Dick thing. But, lookin' back is always a mistake.

Songs that made the hit parade.

Sprezzatura said...

"Why does 3PB get a pass?"

She and I gots a kinky thing goin' on. Sure it starts w/ her making passes at me, but then it gets rough.


Sprezzatura said...

rough in a good way.

Sprezzatura said...

lots of consent.


Sprezzatura said...

safe words too.

As goes w/o sayin'.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

ARM, sorry, gee, I didn't mean to leave PB out. Or Ritmo. Or any leftist here. Shame on me.

You're all nasty, pathetic little creatures. Not men. Mewling quims.

Good night, eunuchs! I take my leave, adieu. I'm sure you'll leave many comments - but I won't read them, so ta-ta!

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Why does 3PB get a pass?'

Aw, I hope his feelings weren't hurt. He'll have to pet a puppy and jerk off to his Michelle Obama poster before he can sleep.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

exiledonmainstreet said...
You're all nasty, pathetic little creatures.


That's better, we have an inclusive group here.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

That's better, we have an inclusive group here.

8/17/17, 10:59 PM

I'm not a eunuch though. You are, gamma pussy.

Sprezzatura said...

exile's 10:55 and 10:57 comments are pretty cool.

Seems awful close for incompatible thinking.

Just sayin'

Sprezzatura said...

And, exile flips back to the 10:55 logic at 11:03.

At this point I'm assuming she's messin' w/ us by pretending to be senseless.

Props.

Achilles said...

The leftists running around with their bloody shirt for another day.

Please keep it up. You all just set a statue of Lincoln on fire. You are all going after Jefferson and Washington too.

Over under is 38 seats in the senate for democrats at this point after 2018.

I don't think any of you have actually thought through what you are doing. You are losing at every level and took this opportunity to lash out at the people you are losing to. But creating a straw man is a racist and dishonest way to operate. You are just disgusting losers at this point. There is no reason to include any of you in a constructive discussion about how to make this country better.

And it will be fun to watch you cry and bitch when the Russian collusion story falls apart completely over the next few days. Mueller will be resigning in shame. The media will be broken forever.

Sprezzatura said...

Yes Ach,

Let's keep our fingers crossed that your utopian dreams are near become reality for America and the world.

Yay! MAGA

Achilles said...

The democrat party is back to calling for assasination again.

Since she is a true patriot there is no reason for the democrat party to insist she resigns because the democrat party endorses assasination of the president.

Achilles said...

Blogger 3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...
"Yes Ach,

Let's keep our fingers crossed that your utopian dreams are near become reality for America and the world.

Yay! MAGA"

If you were here in good faith it would be awesome to talk about how to move forward.

But you would rather wave a bloody shirt around and call everyone that disagrees with you and supports Trump a nazi racist jerk whatever.

All you are doing is destroying the civil fabric of the country when the people have a very small amount of time to unite against the technocratic elite. Good job. I hope you feel better calling other people nazi racists. I hope when you are admiring yourself in the mirror and smelling your farts you like what you see.

All I see is a tool.



Ray - SoCal said...

Agree with comment actions like this are going to make the election map redder.

And the GOPe will be too afraid of being called White Supremacist to go anything.

Primaries will also be interesting...

chickelit said...

Question for Althouse: Is that a verbatim quote in your headline:

"The removal of City-owned monuments to confederate soldiers in Forest Hill Cemetery has minimal or no disruption to the cemetery itself."

If so, it's interesting that Soglin (or you) chose not to capitalize "Confederate." Adjectives based on proper nouns -- as a rule -- should retain their capitalization. Making the word minuscule instead of majuscule makes "Confederate" an improper noun. That may have been his subtle intent. It might be interesting to look for this trend in other quotes and media.

signed,
grammar nazi

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

"Please keep it up. You all just set a statue of Lincoln on fire. You are all going after Jefferson and Washington too."

But they love America and just hate treason.

PB, it's so cute when you lecture me on logic. Go put on your footie pajamas and read Marvel Comics. Oh, and do tell us how HOT and RICH you are tomorrow. That's totes believable.

Sprezzatura said...

Chick,

it's capitalized other times in the press release. Althouse posted the text in the earlier thread re this stuff.

BTW, do you think your (and all the rest of y'all's) resentment re this race stuff is interesting?

Do ya think the DJT folks know that it makes ya like him more?

"RACIAL RESENTMENT Using this and other data, political scientists have argued that racial resentment is the strongest predictor of whether voters flipped from Mr. Obama to Mr. Trump, and the biggest driver of Trump support among these voters."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/upshot/the-obama-trump-voters-are-real-heres-what-they-think.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Cool huh? Sometimes pols do give you what you vote for. Lookin' good for DJT reelect re racial resenters.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Oh,and here I said I wouldn't be back and yet here I am. What can I say? You lib dudes are just irresistible - when it comes to mocking you.

Here's some more news:

"Imran Awan, a former IT aide for Democratic Florida Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, was indicted Thursday on four counts including bank fraud and making false statements.

The indictment also includes his wife Hina Alvi."

Gosh, why was he kept on the DNC payroll for so long? I mean, if you're sick of talking about white Southerners who have been dead for 150 years - here's a topic for you.

Sprezzatura said...

exile,

You forgot to mention that I'm also proud of my other endowment.


exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

But PB, dearie, you told me earlier not to take you seriously at all. You said, in effect, "I'm just a dumb troll and it's funny to me that you're so earnest."

Now you want be taken taken seriously? Ha, ha! No way! You said "I'm a clown!" I'm taking you at your own estimation of yourself.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...


"You forgot to mention that I'm also proud of my other endowment."

Yep. The number of rocks you have in your head, which would fill the Grand Canyon if someone split your skull open. Truly impressive!

(Not advocating for violence, you understand. I'll leave that to you and ARM and Ritmo.)

chickelit said...

Jelly retorted: it's capitalized other times in the press release. Althouse posted the text in the earlier thread re this stuff.

The one thing I like about the German language is that all nouns are capitalized. It removes dispute about impropriety.

signed,
grammar nazi

Gahrie said...

The Left has to live continuously in the present, because the past makes them look so bad.

Achilles said...

Democrats burn statue of Lincoln.

Keep waving that bloody shirt. Keep tearing the civil fabric of the country apart.

The veneer of civilization is very thin.

Achilles said...

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...

BTW, do you think your (and all the rest of y'all's) resentment re this race stuff is interesting?

We get tired of being called racists by shitheads who never do anything for anyone. You think taking money from some people and giving it to other people makes you better somehow. You never build anything. You never help anyone. You just pretend to and call everyone who objects mean and greedy.

Then you go and call the people who actually go out with their own money and their own effort to help racists. Then you feel real good about yourself. You go sit in front of the mirror and stuff your nose up your ass.

But it is easier for you to be a tool than it is for you to be honest about what is actually going on.

That's ok. Democrats wont even be able to filibuster after 2018.

eddie willers said...

That's ok. Democrats wont even be able to filibuster after 2018.

So I guess we can change the saying a little:

"Those who attempt to erase the past, are doomed to repeat it" (2010, 2014 and 2016)

chickelit said...

Jelly queried: BTW, do you think your (and all the rest of y'all's) resentment re this race stuff is interesting?

Ressentiment, as in the French philosophical sense, is interesting. I think this whole kerfuffle is driven by black ressentiment that Reparations are looking like a pipe dream.

walter said...

Achilles said... You never build anything.
--
Hey..moustache man Barrette is building a...trolley! Well..that..and some sort of bankable virtue credit he hopes to cash in later via statements regarding civil war shiite.

Achilles said...

Peaceful Protesters in Charlotte attempt to burn unconscious photographer alive.

It is ok though because they are peacefully protesting NAZIS! Trump was totally racist for condemning these people too. I mean there is NO MORAL EQUIVALENCE!!1!1!!!1! Everyone supporting Trump is a NAZI! and will be burned! Peacefully of course.

Took them 1 day to start after Washington.

Trump was right after all. About everything. Again.

Rusty said...

Blogger AReasonableMan said...
Howard said...
I'm quite happy to live in a country where a group of armed citizens can waltz into a town square and spew their vile hate without firing a shot.

No they killed a woman with a car instead. Or maybe that was only the bad fascists, the 'fine people' fascists have yet to learn how to drive.

You're talking about the Anti-Fa people right? They're the ones that have to be bused everywhere.

Mark Caplan said...

"who puts up monuments using the word "heroes" for the courageous fighters on the other side?"

The British put a statue of George Washington in Trafalger Square.

Birkel said...

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2010/11/11/memorial-harvard-war-confederate/

It is Memorial Church at Harvard that has Confederate soldier names listed. And at least one actual German WWII too.

Big Mike said...

@Rusty, good one.

Known Unknown said...

So we're seeing the Streisand effect with this, correct? Removing it memorializes it more than keeping it.

People are now reading about the complex life of Robert E. Lee, too.

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