"I do, but the reality of what would happen would be I think something that perhaps it'd be a little higher, perhaps it'd be a little lower. And on a given day, Serena could beat some players. I believe because she's so incredibly strong mentally that she could overcome some situations where players would choke 'cause she's been in it so many times, so many situations at Wimbledon, The U.S. Open, etc. But if she had to just play the circuit - the men's circuit - that would be an entirely different story."
Said John McEnroe, and I guess this is making the news because 700 is so low.
Interesting factoid: "President Donald Trump approached McEnroe 17 years ago about playing a $1 million, winner-take-all match against Venus or Serena Williams at his Trump Taj Mahal Casino in Atlantic City."
I remember the "Battle of the Sexes" matches in the 1970s, with Bobby Riggs bragging tauntingly about the superiority of men and then trouncing Margaret Court. (Later, under questionable conditions, he was beaten by Billie Jean King.)
I see Margaret Court is in the news within the last month. She said: "I mean, tennis is full of lesbians because even when I was playing there was only a couple there but those couple... took young ones into parties and things. And because they liked to be around heroes and what you get at the top is often what you will get right through that sport."
Court, 74, is a Christian pastor, and she was speaking on Vision Christian Radio.
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৭৮টি মন্তব্য:
Margaret Court said: "I mean, tennis is full of lesbians because even when I was playing there was only a couple there but those couple... took young ones into parties and things. And because they liked to be around heroes and what you get at the top is often what you will get right through that sport."
The Christian church has been full of clergy committing abuse on young boys around the world including the US. Big time abuse.
Bobby Rigs said he'd found his niche, women's tennis.
Althouse said...
(Later, under questionable conditions, he was beaten by Billie Jean King.)
Empty rumor mongering.
Some women's top player married to a tennis pro recently said there's no contest, the guy wins.
"The Christian church has been full of clergy committing abuse on young boys around the world including the US. Big time abuse."
Sin is sin. We all fall short.
I value McEnroe's smart and insightful commentary on the tennis broadcasts. It's a shame he's going to be attacked...
Golf went through this a few years ago. Special exemptions were granted to women to play in men's PGA events. Broadcasts were full of breathless commentary right up until the ladies missed the cut by a wide margin on Friday. Golf's 'men's' US Open has always been open to women yet for reasons unknown women don't make it to the main event.
As Larry Niven has pointed out, the world used to be a place where women were de facto slaves. Men are physically stronger, and that used to mean that a woman needed a man to protect her or some other man would take control of her. Take a look at the society of lions.
Technology changed that, made a world where physical strength is not the deciding vote.
Leftists who long for pre-industrial civilization, and who are woman, are not using their heads very well.
Lesbians is women's golf, not tennis.
"Golf's 'men's' US Open has always been open to women yet for reasons unknown women don't make it to the main event."
6/26/17, 6:47 AM
Would the women tee off from the men's tees? (cough)
"Later, under questionable conditions, he was beaten by Billie Jean King.)"
Must have been the Russians again.
Riggs was a tennis hustler, and I think all the players understood the deal.
Used to play matches carrying a suitcase as a handicap.
It was surely discovered that men could beat women handily long before feminism made it a profitable hustle.
Would the women tee off from the men's tees? (cough)
I think Susie Whaley once qualified for the tour event in Hartford by winning a local qualifying event where she played from a shorter set of tees than the men!
"Empty rumor mongering."
Is Wikipedia in need of editing?
"Riggs... placed many bets on and invested a lot of money in the match. King entered the court in a chair carried by four bare-chested muscle men dressed in the style of ancient slaves. Riggs followed in a rickshaw drawn by a bevy of scantily clad models.. King won the match 6–4, 6–3, 6–3. In the first set, she initially fell behind four games to two... There was also widespread speculation, based on Riggs' unusually poor play and large number of unforced errors, that Riggs had purposely lost the match in order to win large sums of money that he had bet against himself, as a way to pay off his gambling debts. ESPN's Outside the Lines on August 25, 2013 featured a man who had been silent for 40 years who said he heard several members of the mafia talking about Riggs throwing the match in exchange for cancelling his gambling debt to the mob. On the other hand, the article says Riggs' close friend and estate executor Lornie Kuhle vehemently denied he was ever in debt to the mob or received a payoff from them....Bobby Riggs, the biggest ham in the world, gets his greatest audience — and purposefully looks bad? There's no way. If he had beaten Billie Jean, he could have kept the act going indefinitely. Next they would have had him play Chrissy on clay." Selena Roberts claimed in her book documenting the match, A Necessary Spectacle, that Riggs later undertook a public lie detector test to prove he did not throw the match."
I based "questionable circumstances" on that.
You'd never get away with that "slaves" business today.
The rumor was that Riggs owed the mob and paid off by throwing the BJK match, where betting was heavy nationwide.
A win/win for women and Riggs.
BJK wound up a close friend of Riggs, probably unrelated to that.
Wimbledon (2004) a romcom with tennis pros, though they don't play each other; but implicitly accepts a vast difference.
Women as slaves misunderstands slaves in a PC way.
Slaves were an economic arrangement. It's better to enslave the defeated enemy than to kill him.
It's part of a hit the guy on the head and take his stuff economic structure.
Lots of resources were wasted on defense, as a result.
The free market killed it off. A slave contributes more working in his own interest than as a slave, in a free market.
The free market required enforceable contracts and rule of law, and so forth, so was a Western discovery.
Women don't fit into that structure. Both sides came out ahead in marriage long before that.
Whether Riggs threw the match or not, it's hardly informative. He was 55 while BJK was I think 29. Riggs had also beaten Court 6-2, 6-1.
A 25 year old woman has the aerobic capacity of a 50 year old man.
The TV networks used to promote and broadcast the mixed-doubles events more prominently than they do nowadays. They were fun to watch. Doubles play requires the fastest eyes and responses in tennis.
It seemed to me that back then, a likely strategy would be to mostly slam the ball at the woman's side as much as possible, but the doubles teams didn't tend to do that. I wondered whether that was because the strategy wouldn't be effective, or out of some kind of chivalry, or because of the way the doubles teams planned their play (put the man in the more difficult position on defense?), or whether there might even be some vague rules about not allowing play like that.
I'm no tennis expert at all, so maybe I was wrong about what was happening.
Someone takes a weird interest in Althouse's and Meade's sex life. Stop peeping through the bedroom window. It's creepy.
I followed the McEnroe clickbait somewhere about Warhol ruining his sexlife. His memoir sounds like it might be worth reading, if it's more than a few quips to attract attention.
The muscular topless slavebearers has been used in several music videos (not recently). Michael Jackson did one, IIRC, and some female crossover country singer.
slavebearers has been
guess that's true
Pro singles tennis is boring to watch
What was the purpose of stating that Court is a Christian? What does it add to your story?
Watching M E G push herself over the "posting" cliff. Why oh why? Certain things in life mystify me.
The Christian church has been full of clergy committing abuse on young boys around the world including the US. Big time abuse.
So that anti-Christian screed got my attention. I had heard the NPR interview with McEnroe live, and loved it. The interviewer was so stunned and disappointed by McEnroe's matter-of-fact statement of what is obviously true for anybody who knows athletics. It just didn't fit the narrative. It also had very little to do with McEnroe's book, which he was promoting.
But back to Christianity. Is there any doubt, but that no institution in world history has done more good, built more schools and hospitals and places where the poor and disenfranchised can find respite, than the Christian church(es)? Has any institution done more for the poor? Done more for world literacy? Done more, to promote the golden rule in all aspects of life on earth? The triumph of Western civilization is principally marked by its development under Christianity.
I recognize, of course, that the Roman Catholic Church, with its own peculiar gender role definitions seems to have become (one very small part) a backwater for homosexuals who used their closeted positions of authority to abuse children of their same sex. All of which pales in the face of the massive and overwhelming history of good coming out of the church.
I really did not see Margaret Court (an elegant and stylish player of incomparable skill and intelligence in her day) as making any observations based on Christian teaching. She's a practicing Christian clergy member, and was being interviewed on a Christian radio program. But her observations about women's pro tennis are not based on Christianity; they are based on her decades as a pro player, and later as a commentator and follower of the tour for commentary and journalism.
It is just a fact, that women's sports -- most particularly in in the U.S. and even more particularly in women's NCAA sports -- feature an over-representation of lesbians that is as plain as it is inexplicable. It is a fair bet, that the number of male homosexuals on the PGA Tour, in the 70-odd-year history of the Tour, could be counted on the fingers if one hand and perhaps the fingers of one finger. Whereas something close to 50 percent of the LPGA Tour (and the WNBA, and NCAA women's soccer and softball, etc.) are lesbians.
No one needs to take any formal legal or moral positions on same-sex marriage laws, to observe that the state of homosexuality's over-representation in women's sports is just weird.
Klavan says that when women watch a movie, they think how much more beautiful the women are than they are.
When men watch a movie, they think they could do whatever the action hero is doing.
Do tennis and golf (and softball) attract lesbians, or is it that lesbians often rise to the top of their sports.
Is it the balls?
This takes me back. When Martina Navratilova was at her peak, there was speculation about where she would rank against competitive male players. Some men were accused of being nasty for saying she would rank at about 100. Arch-rival Chris Evert-Lloyd (as she then was) said it was more like 1000. https://www.si.com/vault/1984/09/17/620488/they-did-their-things
Lesbians are social organizers. Somebody has to arrange the softball league.
Hire them to set up meetings.
If McEnroe decides to self-identity as a female, he could still win Wimbledon this year.
It is a fair bet, that the number of male homosexuals on the PGA Tour, in the 70-odd-year history of the Tour, could be counted on the fingers if one hand and perhaps the fingers of one finger.
There's a secret 20th hole, Chuck, in the locker room.
What happens on tour, stays on tour.
Speaking of which, is Althouse's nephew still on tour?
"Lesbians is women's golf, not tennis."
Especially the fans. The Dinah Shore golf tournament is probably the biggest lesbian event in California and that is including WNBA.
That may change as the trannies take over women's sports. It's just beginning.
I couldn't believe the NCAA and others wouldn't defend the sanctity of women's locker rooms when HB2 hit the national news. Are they all idiots? Why didn't the players complain?
It will serve them right when the men take over their sports.
I like watching women's golf, but don't kid yourselves about them being on the same planet as the men. Not just from strength. It was just this past year that the LPGA introduced a rule where the (male) caddies were no longer allowed to line up the (female) golfers for putts. If you watch the men putt, for example, the greens will be so fast it's almost like putting on hardwood, which makes it incredibly difficult for the average mortal, on the LPGA, the greens pretty much look like what I play on locally. Not sure what physical strength has to do with lightly tapping a ball on a line.
Way back in the sixties— before homosexuality was a topic — my brother was a rising tennis star. He was aware even then that lesbians dominated women's tennis. This atmosphere and the rigorous training/traveling lifestyle discouraged young women from dedicating themselves to a career in tennis.
The reason I like the LPGA is that their game is so much closer to mine, though they are certainly more skilled and some of their swings are pretty athletic. Plus a lot of them are pretty in a "not out of my league" way.
I loved playing sports. I hate that some people seem intent on ruining women's sports with their fantasies that men and women are no different from each other.
Virtually Unknown said...
The reason I like the LPGA is that their game is so much closer to mine, though they are certainly more skilled and some of their swings are pretty athletic. Plus a lot of them are pretty in a "not out of my league" way.
Me too. Exactly.
I really enjoy watching women's golf. Notwithstanding any of the issues with lesbianism. For the reasons you rightly cite. It is one if the very few female athletic endeavors that offers any interest for me.
Evert had it right; 700 is being very generous. When I was in high school, I was the #5 player on my high school team (but on a very good team). As it happened, the #5-ranked girls 16-and-under player in the country also went to our school. We played a casual set one day, and it wasn't close. I would have had to try to lose. While I had huge weaknesses as a player, the thing is that on the girls' level no one would hit the ball as hard and as aggressively as I could on my one best stroke. If she hit a nice easy topspin shot short in the court, she gets away with it against girls and the rally continues, but I'm running around my backhand and pounding a winner (or an error).
People also might want to google Karsten Braasch:
MELBOURNE -- Venus and Serena Williams discovered they're no match for the men on the ATP tennis tour, at least not yet.
In an impromptu 'Battle of the Sexes' at the Australian Open yesterday, first Serena, then Venus challenged No 203 Karsten Braasch to a set apiece, and he beat them both.
Serena fell 6-1, Venus 6-2. They played as intensely as they could, while Braasch performed with gentlemanly restraint.
"It was extremely hard," said the 16-year-old Serena. "I didn't know it would be that hard. I hit shots that would have been winners on the women's tour and he got to them easily."
IF women tennis players are equal to the men then why do they only play best of 3 rather than best of 5 that the men play
they get paid the same amount as men but play less matches
There's no women's golf seniors' tour.
The reason there's no women's golf seniors' tour is that they're not hot babes, not that they can't golf. No audience.
The question is where softball lesbians learn not to throw like girls.
Wherever it is ought to be taught to all girls, and Obama.
It's said that baseball gave American soldiers an edge against the enemy with hand grenades.
@ Freeman Hunt. Exactly. I am a big UConn women's BB fan. I know they could be beaten by a men's team, but that has nothing to do with the skill of the players or the commitment those women make to be amongst the best women's players in the country. I enjoy watching women's softball as well. Faster paced and I always marvel that the infielders don't end up eating the ball they play so close. Two more things: in most cases the girls go to class (in UConn's case academics receive high priority); the women seem to get more pure joy from their play without all the posturing and BS that goes on in the men's game.
Unrelated: I took my nephew to see Wonder Woman yesterday. Solid film: well-paced, pretty well-shot action sequences (not chopped to hell for the most part), decent plot, Chis Pine is charismatic, and Gal Gadot does a very good job of holding attention (it helps that she's extraodinarily attractive in a wholesome sort of way). A good movie--worth the ticket price.
Anyway that movie clearly showed that female superheroes are just as good, if not better, than male superheroes. Since elite athletes are as close to real superheroes as we have, I think it's pretty clear that female athletes are at least as good as male athletes in any fair comparison. Anyone who disagrees is a tool of the patriarchy.
This all goes to the inherent contradiction of Patriarchy theory. If my tribe can easily oppress yours for 5000 years straight, we are not equals.
What's funny is the most TV watchers of the LPGA are men. TV viewership for women's tennis is more female dominated. Maybe, its because more women play tennis.
As stated, women's golf is at a 2 SD's below the men's the game. The yardage is less, and the greens are slower and softer. Sorenstam was the biggest hitter on the LPGA in 2003 and played at the colonial. She didn't make the cut. Not only was hitting long irons and woods to reach the greens, she wasn't anything special in/around the greens. She played as best she could, didn't make any big mistakes, and still missed the cut.
Back in 1998 before either Williams sister had won a Grand Slam event, they claimed they could beat any man outside of the Top 200 and set out to prove it with exhibition one set matches against #203 Karsten Braasch. He beat Serena 6-1 and Venus 6-2. Apparently, he played a round of golf and had a couple of drinks beforehand. He also smoked. #700 may be generous.
That said, Karsten did note later that one of his advantages was that the Williams sisters were simply not familiar with some parts of the men's game. For instance, the sisters would assume that a certain shot was a won point because their female opposition would never return it, but Karsten would track it down. If they played men a lot more, they would probably get better at handling those nuances and would therefore be more competitive. That said, they still wouldn't be good by men's elite tennis standards.
"But like I said: after that "final surgery" if you guys are serious, we might let you in our leagues."
You're behind the times Mary. Male to female transsexuals who play women's sports win.
"This reality was highlighted when transgender MMA fighter Fallon Fox gave opponent Tamikka Brents, a biological woman, a concussion and damaged eye socket during a match. Speaking later of the incident, Brents remarked, “I’ve never felt so overpowered in my life.”
“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not, because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life, and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right. ”
Read more: https://thelibertarianrepublic.com/transgender-athletes-in-womens-sports-spits-in-the-face-of-feminism/#ixzz4l7TNRV00
Follow us: @TheLibRepublic on Twitter
As for tennis, I couldn't make the boys HS team, but I would practice with some of the girls and could beat the best girl easily. I had to ease up on my serve just to make it a game.
Serena and Venus are big hitters - i think both weigh over 160. Two of the greatest ever.
But of course... why compare?
Why? Because the women do. It's not the men bringing these things up. It's the women. The women politicking that the reason they don't get "paid the same amount of money for the same job" is because of sexism. That the "prize money pay gap" for tournaments is because of sexism. That the reason women aren't found on GOAT athlete lists (and instead are only considered best among the women) is because of sexism. But "training for the same number of hours and trying hard" is not the same as putting out the same level of performance.
And, yes, there are reasons I personally might prefer watching the women play a particular sport because the strategy is different (again, usually the result of physical limits on the part of the women), but even then on the question of pay there is a basic economic question--why would you pay an employee who brings in an audience of 100 and ticket sales of $1000 the same as an employee who brings in an audience of 5000 and ticket sales of $50,000? There are only a couple of sports where the women pull the same audience.
There is no women's senior tour on the LPGA because there is basically little audience for them when they are younger.
The real fun is going to happen when the number 700 man in the world decides that he really is a woman, shifts to the woman's tour and immediately starts winning all of the tournaments.
Our US Womens Soccer Team, 3 months before winning gold at the Olympics, played the Under-17 US Men's Team.
They lost 8-2.
In a straight male v female competition, youd have difficulty finding any body to bet on the woman. Rightly so.
I liked playing sports in high school, especially volleyball and I’ve enjoyed watching girls basketball and softball matches. But I recognize that male sports are by far a bigger draw, because the truth of the matter is that the fastest, strongest human beings in the world are young men in their 20’s and people will always prefer watching the best to “the best women athletes.” A bunch of teenage boys beat the US Olympic Women’s Soccer team:
http://usatodayhss.com/2017/the-fc-dallas-u-15-academy-team-beat-the-u-s-women-s-national-team-5-2
Denying basic biological facts never works in the end.
It has been a while but I once saw an analysis of the Olympics comparing men's measured events with womens measured events where distances, times, weights etc were the same.
In not a single instance did the winning woman beat the last place man.
John Henry
All of women's basketball looks like 7th grade boys playing. Okay, the UConn women look like 9th graders.
But I'd still rather watch the top 7th-9th grade boys, because I'd be fascinated to see the boys who were destined to play in the future at Duke or Michigan. Or for a year at Kentucky.
Chris Evert couldn't beat her unranked brother,when she was in her prime. I don't know why we insist on talking about this stuff. It really doesn't take away from her accomplishments as a woman. I don't particularly want women who can beat me at sports for a wife and helpmeet, and what men want has a lot to do with what women are, just as what women want has a lot to do with what men are. You see, the people who wanted men like we are and women like they are have been the most successful biologically. I know, I know, evolution is wrong!
How many ATP players are there currently- 2000 or more? That is the minimum number that would beat Serena Williams in her prime.
A commenter above did make a good point, though- women don't routinely play players of that caliber, and if they did, they might play just a bit differently to narrow the gap over time; but I still don't think she could have ever competed on the men's tour as anything other than a novelty 1st round and out.
Navratilova has frequently spoke about the atmosphere on the women's tennis tour in the 70s. The flood of teen prodigies attracted a lot of predatory behavior, especially the older women on the circuit. Eventually certain players and promoters began to police the tour lest scandal did damage to women's tennis.
The "identify as female" athletes are already starting to take over the high school girls' sports.
Remember when Michelle Wie was going to beat all the men, and she couldn't even beat all the teen girls?
Bobby Riggs, the biggest ham in the world, gets his greatest audience — and purposefully looks bad? There's no way. If he had beaten Billie Jean, he could have kept the act going indefinitely.
As a man you don't get points for defeating women. At anything. If Riggs threw the match (and he almost certainly did) he did it at the right time, since after King everyone would have lost interest.
I haven't watched the sport in years, but I found women's tennis to be a much more enjoyable sport to watch from an entertainment perspective. Racquets have gotten so fast the men didn't volley that much - the serve was either an ace or the receiver so off balance he never had a chance to win. Boring. They should have made the men go back to wooden racquets.
Funny how the patriarchy resistance doesn't seem to be clamoring for co-ed competitive sports. I was on the boy's tennis team in high school. It got cut so I asked if I could join the gals ;)
The cut process si still a head-scratcher. Us kids went with our coach to try to preserve the team. So we thought...he decided to capitulate and throw us overboard at the meeting. We were shocked and confused.
I remember those battle of the sexes shows too. One of the more ridiculous was a track race where the woman was given a __yd head start.
Along with the Gong Show, Battle of the Network stars is back.
In what other major sport is the top women equal to the #700 man? Football? Football? Basketball? UFC? Baseball/Softball? 700 is a compliment.
If you asked me to rank politicians, neither Trump nor Clinton would make my top 700.
Char Char Binks said...
Remember when Michelle Wie was going to beat all the men, and she couldn't even beat all the teen girls?
So it is true that Michelle Wie had trouble, and could never dominate, once she joined the LPGA Tour. But she's been successful, and winner. Just not the "LPGA Tiger" she was once touted to be.
And there was one event in which Michelle Wie cerated her own myth, and rightly blew up much of what has been written on this comments page. The event was the 2005 USGA Amateur Public Links tournament. To get into the event at all, you had to qualify. To qualify, you basically have to be a super-stud male golfer. A real, true elite. The people who generally managed to qualify (generally, through extremely competitive local qualifying events) are typically some of the best mens' NCAA players, and the most elite male club players in the nation. The world, actually. Guys who are scratch golfers have no chance; we are talking about scholarship athletes and former collegiate golfers who, if they cared about handicaps would be +2 and +3 golfers. Better, than most golfers can even understand.
In 2004, Wie narrowly missed qualifying. In 2005, she qualified. As a 15 year-old. Once she got into the tournament, she then beat half the field in medal(stroke) play, and got herself into the match-play portion of the event following a cut. Then, she proceeded to win her first three matches (including against several NCAA players) and only lost in the quarterfinals to Clay Ogden of BYU who is now a Web.com Tour player.
It was all from the men's tees -- nothing to give her and advantage, and I regard it as not merely the greatest performance in the history of women's golf but one of the most amazing achievements in the history of women's athletics.
This seems more a topic for a beer at a bar.
Except for the lesbian comment from Court. I guess that's for church.
Whoever the #700 player in the ATP is might just have a shot at becoming famous. Or maybe some geezer on the seniors tour.
Billie Jean King encouraged late astronaut Sally Ride, who was nationally ranked in college, to turn professional. No lesbian jokes here, just noticing the correlation between female athleticism and tongue-punching.
I guess Ann doesn't follow professional tennis, but Serena Williams would struggle to win games against the #500 ranked male player. If she played a top 50 male player it would be 6-0 6-0 every time.
"They lost 8-2"
I agree that the women's Olympic soccer team would struggle against men's college teams, but to be fair... these examples are more like pre-season football - the goal is not to win but to playtest certain tactics, 2nd stringers, etc.
Williams herself doesn't seem to think McEnroe is terribly off base. For those who didn't read the article that Ann links to:
The 35-year-old Williams, who is six months pregnant, was asked about the possibility of playing an exhibition match against Andy Murray during an appearance on "Late Night with David Letterman" four years ago.
"For me, men's tennis and women's tennis are completely, almost, two separate sports," Williams said. "If I were to play Andy Murray, I would lose 6-0, 6-0 in five to six minutes, maybe 10 minutes. No, it's true. It's a completely different sport. The men are a lot faster and they serve harder, they hit harder, it's just a different game. I love to play women's tennis. I only want to play girls, because I don't want to be embarrassed."
Mother Nature is clearly a bigot. Not only does She distinguish between the male and female sex, but she also designed the universal fitness function to favor Ducks, not Dodos.
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