My first impression is: Embarrassingly childish.
The NYT has an article about this, calling it "a time-honored American tradition: taunting the other side." The NYT goes on to say:
What they lacked in originality — the No. 1 song from 1969 by the group Steam is a standard anthem at sporting events — the Democrats made up for in enthusiasm. Their voices echoed throughout the House chamber, loud enough to be heard on a live feed on C-Span and even overpowering some celebrations by Republicans.But the taunt normally comes from winners, doesn't it? Since when do the losers "taunt" the winners? I guess the idea is that the Republicans, by winning on this one vote yesterday, were advancing toward a big loss in the midterm elections. As the Times notes (and I quoted yesterday) Nancy Pelosi said "House Republicans are going to tattoo this moral monstrosity to their foreheads, and the American people will hold them accountable." And, as the Times also notes, Republicans used the old tune in 1993 when Democrats voted to raise taxes. What followed in the midterm was the Republican Revolution.
So my second impression is: Turnabout is fair play.
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182 comments:
Are we sure the Republicans did that?
I wouldn't depend on the NYT to tell the truth.
This is just sickening.
As I wrote earlier, the House GOP should have just stood aside and let Obamacare fall apart on its own.
So, are the Dems singing with the conviction of experience? Because they passed Obamacare and promptly lost the house and have done downhill from there.
Or are they arguing that to vote to repeal the majority-losing law will also result in losing the majority?
Not sure I see how that works, exactly.
Its amazing that 190 out of 191 voted against. The Democrat party is a complete monolith. Scary.
In one way the Dems definitely won, they got Republicans to concede that healthcare should be provided for by the Government in at least some capacity. I'm told that a majority of Americans believe this too.
The nanny nanny boo boo tune would have been better, a time-tested childhood taunt.
"As I wrote earlier, the House GOP should have just stood aside and let Obamacare fall apart on its own."
Isn't that basically what's still going to happen? The Senate will have its own bill... etc. etc.
Although there are numerous references to the last time when the Republicans sang Na, Na to the Dems, Rcocean refuses to believe that facts because they were reported in the NYT, along with others. Another example of why the Trump fact-free world of fake -fact tweets is so dangerous to our democracy.
"The nanny nanny boo boo tune would have been better, a time-tested childhood taunt."
I think that's a regional variation of what I grew up with (in my region) as "na na na na Na na." To the tune of "Ring Around the Rosy," right. Many other taunts were done to that tune, for example, using the person's name, as in "Charlie is a baby."
"GOP is stupid" would work.
Obamacare wasn't falling apart on its own but had a good push from Republicans and insurances companies that didn't want competition. As Trump=care is picked apart by every medical organization including the AMA and insurance companies, along with the millions who will be left without coverage, the voters might realize why Trump praised Australia's health care as "better than ours," and give a good push at the ballot box in 2018.
".... the Trump fact-free world...."
An entire new world? A new fact-free world?
Given how un-predictive, un-serious, and inaccurate the public's and press's knowledge and understanding of facts was before Trump became President, Trump has brought something more like the fact-free flavor of the month, don't you think?
Hardly a new world.
"Obamacare wasn't falling apart on its own."
-- Obama literally illegally made it so certain legal obligations/dues didn't come calling and in many ways refused to enforce parts of the law that would harm it. The ACA had caused massive fall-out in multiple states, with insurance costs raising (both premiums and getting less out of it/lower value due to deductibles). By every metric that the left put down, save getting people insurance, any insurance, it was a failure. The cost curve did not bend down. Quality of care did not go up. All that happened is marginal people were able to be covered by increasing costs on other people, which only lasted so long as Obama refused to enforce provisions of the law that would have increased costs even more.
You can say you think it may have survived the various death spirals, but it is completely at odds with reality to say it was not falling apart.
Where have you been?
When Democrats passed ocare, there was a big protest by tea parties at the mall of DC. Congress has its own underground passage and train to take them from their offices to capital Hill so they can vote. Instead of taking this train, going underground, they got a larger than Life gavel and marched through the crowd to mock them and throw it in the protestors faces. For funzies, imagine Republicans doing that today through a crowd of antifa.
Anyway, they are the party of little babies. This is what they do. This is why our nation is doomed. The writing is on the wall. The fact that Democrats still get elected anywhere means we are finished.
There's something sort of sad about childish taunts when you consider that the median age of Congress is 58, meaning a fair number of them are probably grandparents. Keep in mind I'm not saying that the Republicans would never and have never done such I thing. I'm not even suggesting that mocking or taunting in such a way isn't politically effective or undeserved in all cases. These are the people who we've selected to represent us, so I guess that's what we want.
I know quite a few people who are on the exchanges and I have never heard any of them have a good word for the ACA. In fact, they say it is killing them. People whose monthly premium is larger than their house payment with huge deductibles. They all wanted change. Trump ran on repealing and replacing the ACA. He won.
I think the idea that this is going to hurt Republicans is more Democrat wishcasting.
Your first impression was more correct than the second.
Democrats are taunting Republicans for having scored an own goal. AHCA barely repeals anything. Without further legislation, the government continues to dictate how insurance companies do business. And premiums will continue to increase.
Its amazing that 190 out of 191 voted against. The Democrat party is a complete monolith. Scary.
How many House republicans voted for ACA?
I think the Republicans are best served by moving their proposal forward slowly, which seems to be the default institutional process, especially in the Senate.
In the meantime, Democrats own the status quo of Obamacare going into the mid-terms.
Shouldn't the Republicans sing... "Time is on my side"?
Am I wrong here?
It is childish and quite in keeping with progressives' regression to infantilism post-election. Pelosi's quote is odd and inconsistent with the facts. The ACA stands as it did before yesterday's vote. If and when the Senate does their job and Trump signs it into law, then we will "own" it, but only as long as it takes to completely dismantle it and replace the stinking heap with something resembling a free-market tack.
For the time being the stink of it all still belongs on "you'll have to pass it to see what's in it" Pelosi and her compadres in the unDemocratic party.
While exceptionally childish, it's hard to blame the libruls for giving vent to their wants and fears. On the one hand, they want to believe that they will be vindicated in their fervent belief that they have a monopoly on virtue, Obamacare being the fruit of their extraordinary good intentions. On the other, they fear that voters will continue to deny them credit for being SO WONDERFUL.
In that regard, its very much like strolling casually past the graveyard at midnight quite certain that you are safe, notwithstanding the hairs on the back of the neck Standing up Stendra Stiff.
This would be a good time for a Trump tweet taunting them back since clearly, the Republicans are all but useless. Really, I'm beginning to get the picture that there is no reason whatsoever to vote for them at all. They are completely gutless, pusillanimous carbuncles on the body politic. At least the libruls feel oh so strongly that they are on the right side of history, and they act accordingly. Unfortunately, the Republicans act as if they agree.
- Krumhorn
Obamacare wasn't falling apart on its own...
Now THERE's a fact-free preamble unconnected to reality. Without a Democrat to illegally fund the "risk corridors" (as Obama was doing contra to law) and do all the other executive order-level "help" the law needed it started collapsing faster this year. But it was already entering a death spiral. Look at Iowa where 90 out of 94 counties have ONE ACA provider this year and many will have NONE next year because the shitty plan relied on 18- to 25-year-olds to buy health insurance and subsidize the old and sick.
Great Plan, RV! I'm sure it would have worked out just fine without all that Republican interference. NOT.
It doesn't matter.
There are no rules, standards, or social conventions anymore.
No ethics, no morals, no reponsibility, nothing but power.
This is not a nation or society but a group of selfish tribes out to screw each other over as best they can. Any invocation of anything pretending to the above is simply a shot in the barrage.
Examine the nature of the rhetoric used in the Middle East, for instance.
It is almost purely contradictory, unselfconscious, unreflective, hypocritical.
It is not meant to be analyzed and critiqued, or taken seriously in its substance.
It is meant purely for emotional effect.
That is what the US discourse has become, and it would be best for all sides, not just one, to realize the situation.
When you hear from your opponents you are not hearing an argument, and they don't want a conversation. They are just using the next best thing to bullets, hoping to wound.
They are Children.
My first impression is: Embarrassingly childish.
Of course it's embarrassingly childish. You have one side of the political aisle in this country that's run by, and voted in by, children. One only needs to listen to Stephen Colbert or The Toothless Revolutionary to realize this...
Whoops. Did that count as a time-honored taunt???
Another way to look at it is the Democrats are finally learning how to behave as a minority party.
buwaya said... That is what the US discourse has become, and it would be best for all sides, not just one, to realize the situation.
Perhaps it's always been like this. I haven't looked but I assume there's been a huge number of instances of bad behavior in Congress over the years. Certainly I know I've seen loads of videos of parliaments in other countries displaying far, far worse behaviors than simple taunting.
Bad behavior starts from unrestrained emotion, and when there's no negative outcome for behaving badly, why would anybody expect bad behavior to not continue to happen? As long as their voters keep voting for them, and as long as it's ignored or rewarded, it will keep happening.
Hasn't been a caning in Congress in awhile.
GOP health reform may hurt GOP electoral fortunes. The MSM will do its best. But the real question is if it will hurt the GOP as much as the ACA hurt the Dems.
Obamacare wasn't falling apart on its own but had a good push from Republicans and insurances companies that didn't want competition.
Lord, here we go again. It WAS falling apart on its own, and the Dem party was counting on that.
From the patient standpoint: once deductibles, copays and coinsurance costs went went up, the left was counting on a massive resistance by those patients to force Congress to push for single payer.
From the plan standpoint - force them to cover things that don't need to be covered, force them to cover pre-existing conditions WITHOUT any risk pools, and separate by state so the small states would have little to no insurers.
From the provider standpoint - hospitals will treat sick patients who how have bigger coinsurance and deductible amounts, but won't realize that additional payment because patients aren't paying their portion. For actual physician visits, a lot of patients are being pushed onto Medicaid, which pays less than insurance companies, and Obamacare created a board that can cut those payments even more when they have the will to do so.
It was a PERFECT storm of either perfect, weapons grade stupid by everyone involved in putting Obamacare together, or it was planned to have these effects on everyone who has to deal with the system.
As an aside - I've been in the healthcare finance and data field for 27 years - I'm not pulling this out of some wonk's policy conscriptions from some think tank. I see it every day as part of my job.
So please, Roesch - please stop before you dig yourself into a hole you won't be able to climb out of. Government run healthcare is a bad idea, despite the fact that people "want" it.
Steam, as I recall, was a pick-up band hired to record two songs. 'Steam' was the disposable flip-side recorded in a take or two. The other song was meant to be the hit.
Disposable is the word for the day.
Isn't that basically what's still going to happen? The Senate will have its own bill... etc. etc.
@Althouse, not necessarily. We shall see. At any rate the GOP seems to be trying to salvage the popular parts of Obamacare while getting rid of the stupid parts (which is most of it). I know that they aren't going to get credit for trying but even you ought to give them credit for putting the welfare of the American people ahead of politics.
So please, Roesch ...
@Callahan, there's no point whatsoever in trying to explain reality to roesch. He has his talking points, and his mind. Is. Clamped. Shut.
Short version: It is a grave threat to democracy that the people elected the wrong guys.
This is day 1 of RyanCare. The GOP now owns health care in the US.
I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
This is day 1 of RyanCare. The GOP now owns health care in the US. I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
The Dems owned it from 2009 until today. Did you smell any napalm during that long period?
Can't you guys at least make a cursory attempt to be consistent?
There is very little doubt that it was a quagmire for the Dems.
"Your first impression was more correct than the second."
The first impression still applies, but Republicans are estopped from criticizing.
I'm not a Republican or a Democrats and think the whole thing is disgraceful.
Are we sure the Republicans did that?
Yeah people sang something at that congresswoman from Penn who was the deciding vote. She was from a moderate district, and everyone knew she'd get voted out if she voted for Clinton's tax hike budget.
ARM: "This is day 1 of RyanCare. The GOP now owns health care in the US."
RyanCare (whatever that is) is now the law of the land?
Wow, I really overslept this morning.
Speaking of sports analogies, there was the effort organized by the Trump Administration to hold a celebratory ceremony in the White House Rose Garden.
Which is like popping champagne and spraying everybody in the locker room. At halftime. When the score is 3-0.
By the way, it was a stunt that made Trump late for his meeting with the Australian Prime Minister.
Big Mike: "As I wrote earlier, the House GOP should have just stood aside and let Obamacare fall apart on its own."
Until something passes into law, this is precisely where we are.
Shouldn't the Republicans sing... "Time is on my side"?
Am I wrong here?
Nobody knows for sure, but historically the party in power looses midterm seats. Usually happens because the people blame the party in power for anything that goes wrong.
Poor Chuck. Pickin's are kinda slim this morning for "lifelong republicans".
Not to worry Chuckie boy, the "brilliant" Rachel Maddow and "impeccable" lifelong dem partisan hack journalist Dickerson will soon have some talking points you can latch on to.
Hang in there until then.
Somewhere, Nancy Faust is crying.
A little sheer brilliance (real brilliance, not Chuck proclaimed Maddow brilliance) blast from the past from Laslo in describing "lifelong republican" Chuck:
"Chuck is Inspector Javert, and Trump is his Jean Valjean.
The figurative Bread that Trump stole was the Republican Nomination.
HE WILL NOT LET TRUMP GET AWAY WITH THIS.
Hugo's work is a weighty beast, so I'll cheat and go to a song lyric from the "Les Miserables" musical:
Damned if I'll live in the debt of a thief!
Damned if I'll yield at the end of the chase.
I am the law and the law is not mocked
I'll spit his pity right back in his face
There is nothing on earth that we share
It is either Valjean or Javert!
Sound familiar?
Javert is the 'Real Republican' in a time of tumult. Rules are changing, but Javert is steadfast, unyielding -- BREAD HAS BEEN STOLEN -- for a thousand-plus pages or so. Until:
"...Javert's struggle to accept the ways in which the laws he spent his life upholding may be unjust is what leads to his eventual suicide..." (from Wiki)
Bread for thought.
I am Laslo."
3/23/17, 9:45 PM
Big Mike said...
As I wrote earlier, the House GOP should have just stood aside and let Obamacare fall apart on its own.
And when you wrote that, I agreed.
And the main reason that Republicans couldn't lay back and play it smart, is because of the Trumpist imperative to Rick off items on the grand list of shit-stupid promises and pronouncements made by Trump himself during the campaign.
Good luck to anybody who thinks that Der Donald has a really great plan, a terrific plan to cover everybody and reduce premiums and dramatically lower co-insurance and co-pays.
Believe me when I tell you; they are fake promises. #Fake.
"lifelong republican" Chuck: "And the main reason that Republicans couldn't lay back and play it smart, is because of the Trumpist imperative to Rick off items on the grand list of shit-stupid promises and pronouncements made by Trump himself during the campaign."
LOL
Pay no attention to 7 straight years of republicans in the House and Senate promising over and over again to repeal and replace obamacare and backing that up with actual votes to fully repeal and replace obamacare at least 6 times since starting in 2011.
But Trump, way back when, MADE them do it!!
Gee Chuck, your hilariously false and easily disproved assertion sounds exactly like something the "brilliant" Rachel Maddow and "impeccable" dem party hack John Dickerson would say!
Unexpectedly.
I am surprised that they were able to stop thumb-sucking long enough to chant.
It is childish. Worse, it's not very original. Furthermore, if it requires the audience to wonder why they were doing it, then it has failed. The classic "SHAME! SHAME!" tends to be phony, but at least it sounds adult and was used unironically at some point.
Pelosi adding a "Mark of the Beast" reference does not help in the optics.
Apparently, long gone are the days when "lifelong republican" and Noted Mind Reader and Expert Prognosticator of Michigan Electoral Politics Chuck regaled us with how successful the republicans would be if Trump just kept out of the legislating processes and left it all to Ryan and McConnell.
So, on the first go round, Trump did just that.
And how did it turn out?
Well, precisely as Chuckies electoral predictions!
Unexpectedly!
Do we live in a cool country or what?
Where else would someone like Althouse get up uppity and disgrace identify-y re some taunt, but simultaneously go radio silent re 24 million people going sans health care.
24 million!
Anywho, do tell us more re these disgraceful taunters.
Carry on.
BTW, exactly where is the Dems proposed "Repair and Improve Obamacare Bill" which outlines exactly what the dems believe is needed to make the amazingly wonderful and perfect obamacare even MORE amazingly wonderful and perfect?
After all, the dems have had 7 years to prepare just such a bill and if it truly only involves what the dems and "lifelong republicans" and lefty MSM'ers saying is incrementally needed, they ought to have had that little bill ready to go, eh?
I see 3rdgrader is here with the "dem cannon fodder" talking points re: healthcare.
What else is he gonna do now that the Russia collusion meme has collapsed around him?
Not to worry 3rdgrader, Ms Rice has decided now would be a good time to take a break from appearing non-stop on friendly media outlets with softball/non-followup questions regarding her role in unmasking to refuse to appear and answer the same questions under oath.
Unexpectedly!
And, of course, the 24 million "losing" insurance lie will go the way of all the others.
Carry on!
Lol. "...tick off" auto-corrected to "Rick off" and I didn't see it.
Drago,
So are you saying that you'd oppose the passage of legislation that resulted in a couple dozen million folks losing their health care?
When you realize, and I mean really realize, that anyone over the age of 30-35 who votes for Democrats these days has some moderate to major issues with intellectual honesty, which is almost always brought about by some emotional immaturity or imbalance etc., then this kind of outburst is not surprising. It is a refreshing glimpse into the immaturity of the progressive soul. It is validation, and that's always nice.
Chuck: "Lol. "...tick off" auto-corrected to "Rick off" and I didn't see it."
Strange indeed for such an "astute" self-proclaimed reader of minds.
3rdgrader: "So are you saying that you'd oppose the passage of legislation that resulted in a couple dozen million folks losing their health care?"
Why don't you first explain why your reveled in millions of folks losing their actual healthcare due to legislation that you supported?
Cause that's my contract re deal re Devil.
Got no choice.
3rdgrader, I don't blame you for dodging the question.
You have no answer.
Sort of like how all the lefties who lauded Chavez and Maduro have suddenly gone quite silent as the inevitable results of leftist policies and philosophy move to the unavoidable Socialist End State.
Your best bet is never to stop and think about the mass graves in your wake. There is always another leftist utopia, never before realized, just up ahead if only everyone would listen to you and your fellow Gruber-ites.
At least none of the male legislators went up to a female Republican and screamed "YOUR FUCKING DEAD" to her. (see Wisconsin)
My two co-workers who are in the exchanges will be part of the "24 million to lose insurance." They will turn right around and buy another policy that is not in the exchanges -- perhaps those will have premiums for less than their mortgage payments, unlike their Obamacare policies.
TosaGuy: "My two co-workers who are in the exchanges will be part of the "24 million to lose insurance." They will turn right around and buy another policy that is not in the exchanges -- perhaps those will have premiums for less than their mortgage payments, unlike their Obamacare policies"
I have 2 siblings in the obamacare exchanges who are counting the days until they "lose" their obamacare policy so they can do the very same thing and, hopefully, not just have premiums less than their mortgage payments but also have deductables that are less than $10,000 per year.
But they are deplorables who don't understand what is best for them so they probably had it coming.
"Insurance" is not "health care," and as long as we keep conflating these terms we will just be wasting time and money while making things worse, not better.
As for R/V, I readily confess all this is beyond my comprehension - which is a strong reason why I want nothing to do with it - but I keep reading that the insurance companies, one after the other, is pulling out of this state or another because they have been losing billions of dollars participating in Obamacare.
How is this not a "collapse"?
What really interests me here is the song. The story is songwriter Paul Leka, who had had some recent success, brought in his former singing buddy Gary DeCarlo (stage name Garrett Scott) to record a few songs. They needed a B-side for a single, so they brought in another old buddy Dale Frashuer and resurrected an old (failed) song from their younger days call "Kiss Him Goodbye." The song was short and didn't have a chorus, so they made up the "na na hey hey" as a placeholder chorus until they could come up with a proper one. It was all meant to be a throwaway so no one really took it seriously.
Anyway, the label liked the B-side and wanted to make it a single in its own right. Gary did not want this admittedly silly thing associated with him, probably because having a novelty as a first single would have been bad for his career, so the label released it under the artist Steam. Steam did not exist. It's a very meaningful name for a fake band. The song ended up going to #1 which necessitated a tour, which was a bit of a problem since there was no Steam. Paul ended up cobbling together a band which lasted about a year. None of the members had anything to do with the original recording other than Paul. The song then became a sports anthem after being played on the organ at White Sox games.
As for Gary, his singles flopped. The highlight of his career was a single that he refused to admit was his (until later).
Drago you stupid shit head.
All those "repeal Obamacare" votes meant nothing. Out of the 60 or so votes taken, all but a couple died in the Senate. Of the one or two that cleared both chambers, all were guaranteed to be vetoed by Obama.
It was all substantively unimportant messaging, to the Tea Party elements.
Now it is a different time. Far more serious. With lots of opportunity, for skilled leaders.
We Republicans were right to ridicule Democrats for the way they passed the ACA. We should not now repeat all of their mistakes. We can't, actually. Not without the 60 Senate votes Dems had in 2009.
"lifelong republican" Chuck: "Drago you stupid shit head.
All those "repeal Obamacare" votes meant nothing."
Oh, it meant something alright, as evidenced by the congress-critters actions.
Not to worry gang, this is just "lifelong republican" Chuck doing what he does best: acting as the cock-holster for Rachel Maddow.
The CBO numbers are net 24 million fewer insured folks v current policy not being repealed and replaced.
The folks who would have lower cost insurance are the people who are young and don't usually need insurance.
Presumably these folks will live long lives, hence they'll eventually get to the point where they can't afford insurance, when they need it.
Cool plan.
P.S. the way the CBO ends up w/ a lower average premium cost is directly tied to the fact that the R plan kicks off the folks who need coverage most, i.e. those w/ higher costs. If they took this to the extreme, they could insure only the most healthy (and not making kids, i.e. no maternity costs) million people in America, and then kick everyone else off of insurance. Guess what? Their premium average would be really low.
"lifelong republican" Chuck: "We should not now repeat all of their mistakes. We can't, actually. Not without the 60 Senate votes Dems had in 2009."
Well, problem solved, eh?
Genius.
You know what else the republicans should not do? Travel at light-speed.
Oh, wait. We can't, actually.
3rdgrader: "The folks who would have lower cost insurance are the people who are young and don't usually need insurance.
Presumably these folks will live long lives, hence they'll eventually get to the point where they can't afford insurance, when they need it."
LOL
You just read that somewhere, didn't you?
Hilarious.
Seriously, stop now before you embarrass yourself further. You are close to achieving "Chuck" status.
3rdgrader, did you ever apologize to those families you drove out of affordable health care and into obamacare exchanges where the premiums/deductables and lack of plans/doctors led to many folks just not seeking out health care?
I'll bet you didn't.
No, you and your pals were far to busy ensuring illegals got free health care, and thats why the American citizens had to suffer.
Besides, they are all deplorables anyway, right?
Carry on "Defender of Health Justice". Your passion is only exceeded by your ignorance!
Is there any real analysis out there, or is it all just posturing bullshit?
The Republicans are the dominant party in America for the same 2 reasons the Democrats barely exist--immigration and Obamacare. It is extraordinary to me that the media, as vile and dishonest as they are, can dredge up the gumption to pretend that repealing Obamacare is a political mistake.
Where have they been for the last 8 years?!?
Drago,
You're right about one thing, don't give benefits to the illegals.
The whole point of having them is that they don't fuss when their salaries are such that they must jam a few dozen of themselves into a single mobile home.
Kinda counterproductive to turnaround and pay for their orthopedist after they're broken. A one way ticket on a southbound bus seems like a better solution.
From the rhetoric, one would presume that every Democrat in America has a pre-existing condition. What sort of unhealthy lifestyles are you folks leading, it can't be all bad luck?
By the way, speaking of health care reform and ever more Trump stupidities, there was this howler from his meeting with Australian PM Turnbull:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/05/05/sanders-mocks-trump-s-praise-for-australian-healthcare.html
They can rig up busses w/ gurneys.
TosaGuy...remember that the Democrats are a group of people who can't even have sex without the government assisting them.
3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...
Do we live in a cool country or what?
Where else would someone like Althouse get up uppity and disgrace identify-y re some taunt, but simultaneously go radio silent re 24 million people going sans health care.
The few million that will go "sans health care" if this becomes law will go sans health care because they freely chose it. Very few will lose coverage against their will. Meanwhile, millions will be saved from the curse of bad policies they can't afford because the Democrats couldn't be bothered to pass a decent health care reform bill.
I know, I know, you only like to look at one side of the equation. But if you could be bothered to be honest, even that one side is not nearly so bad as you wish it were.
As I wrote earlier, the House GOP should have just stood aside and let Obamacare fall apart on its own
As the House GOP itself said earlier -- and voted for last year and many other times -- the House GOP should have just kept it word and passed a straight-up complete repeal, rather than proving themselves the dishonest frauds that they are.
There is ZERO legitimate excuse for not passing the exact same full-repeal bill as before.
Tim M,
Thanks for setting me straight. Now, just drop a note to CBO. Let them know that they're wrong because you have determined that the repeal and replace results in great things for folks and the folks who will end up uninsured will be so because they're just lovin freedom and liberty.
Got it.
P.S.
Maybe you could also give them a heads up re taxes so they don't get that wrong too. Presumably you can let them know that tax cuts for job creators will make all boats rise and these tax cuts pay for themselves so it's silly worry about deficits.
The idea that the GOP should just stand around while the country burns to the ground, doing nothing to fix things when they are in total control, is certainly NOT a reason to ever vote for them again.
Let's, for a moment try to look more calmly at the situation today. Few will disagree that Obamacare is a nightmare and that if nothing is done it will self-destruct ( I said "few" - there is a hard core that won't face reality). Those who say it was intended to collapse are, I believe, correct. Obamacare was intended to be so burdensome, and so destructive of the health insurance industry, that it would create favorable conditions for single payer. The election results since its passage make it clear that what the Democrats wanted was not what the American people wanted.
The House has now taken upon itself the responsibility to try to clean up the failing OBAMACARE. What they have done may not be perfect, but it will be seen by most voters as a serious attempt to fix what is a mess. Now it is the Senate's turn to step up to its responsibility. If the Dems manage to defeat a Senate bill then the system in place is still OBAMACARE and it will still be failing; premiums for 2018 - where there are carriers for individual insurance - will rise again by 30 to 50%, deductibles and co-pays will rise, networks will shrink and Medicare patients will continue to be refused service. The most important thing to remember is that unless the Senate and House agree on a new bill we will still have OBAMACARE. If there is no bill, what the House did will stand as a valiant effort ultimately defeated in the Senate by intransigent Democrats. Democrats will still be running defending OBAMACARE. Trump will destroy the Democratic senators in red states who will have defeated the changes needed to rescue OBAMACARE.
Though the Dems may give the appearance of confidence they are up the proverbial shit's creek until Trump signs a bill that finally rids us- and them- of OBAMCARE. Until Trump signs a bill the Dems own what is happening in the health insurance world and election results will continue to reflect that.
The Dems casting Paul Ryan as wanting to toss Granny off a cliff to save the government a few bucks is such tiny, tiny thinking.
Paul Ryan is thinking BIG! If every Democrat has a pre-existing condition, then removing that feature will cause Democrats to die, thus paving the way to total GOP rule! Call it Burymandering.
I am surprised VOX hasn't explained this yet.
For those expecting the CBO results to have any meaning I advise you to review the CBO projections for Obamacare and analyze how accurate they were.
What they have done may not be perfect, but it will be seen by most voters as a serious attempt to fix what is a mess.
They said they would repeal it. And the House and Senate both passed a complete repeal last year. They did not do so now -- and they refuse to do so now. That will be seen by most voters as dishonest and fraudulent.
"The idea that the GOP should just stand around while the country burns to the ground, doing nothing to fix things when they are in total control, is certainly NOT a reason to ever vote for them again."
Sure, but that's not in play here.
The important thing that can't be passed up is ditching all the job creator taxes that allowed O Care to pay for and/or subsidize insurance for 24 million Americans.
Plus, the baseline adjustment re overall gov spending is helpful re additional job creator tax cuts.
If the Rs in the Senate and House can't figure out how to unlock this much job-creator-ism, then what's the point of bein' an R?
@Mark The House passed a bill that might actually be considered on the Senate floor under the same reconciliation procedure that gave us Obamacare. A new bill repealing Obamacare will never be considered in the Senate because it would have to overcome a filibuster - unlike the reconciliation process. The House is trying to make lemonade with the lemons it has. They are actually trying to get something done. A pure repeal bill now would be just one more voice crying in the wilderness.
When George H.W. Bush said, "Read my lips, no new taxes," to gain votes, and then he went and supported a tax increase, it was that dishonest broken promise that is probably the focal point for the disaster that followed and exists now. It was that dishonest act that led to support for Bush going over to Perot, which allowed a near-dead Democrat Party to elect (by minority-plurality of the vote) the Clinton machine, which would later lead to Obama's election, etc.
Yes, promising to do something, over and over and over and over and over and then not doing it -- that has consequences.
Static Ping, that's a good song story!
Reminds me of "What'd I Say" by Ray Charles, originally a quick improvisation to fill out a concert gig. Get a great piano player and some fantastic backup singers, a good drummer and a good (maybe really good) bass player, and you might stumble on gold like that without even knowing it at the time.
khes,
The estimation numbers for total insured was good. But, CBO got the mix of people wrong. There were more covered by Medicaid, fewer by ins cos. Overall net was still good.
The House passed a bill that might actually be considered on the Senate floor under the same reconciliation procedure that gave us Obamacare.
The total repeal bill the House passed last year WAS considered on the Senate floor last year and was even passed by the Senate. So that whole, we need to do it this way under reconciliation rules is complete BS.
Ann's attitude towards the 24 million losing health care is that it's "not interesting."
Mark said...
The idea that the GOP should just stand around while the country burns to the ground, doing nothing to fix things when they are in total control, is certainly NOT a reason to ever vote for them again.
More particularly -- and I think this was Big Mike's original point -- the general idea was for Republicans to draft a good bill including stuff like tort reform (hated by Dems), and let the Senate Dems filibuster it.
"Ann's attitude towards the 24 million losing health care is that it's "not interesting."
That is because they are not losing health care.
Mark: 'They said they would repeal it. And the House and Senate both passed a complete repeal last year. They did not do so now -- and they refuse to do so now. That will be seen by most voters as dishonest and fraudulent."
Probably.
However, and it's a big "however", the opponent will be a Democrat. Honest, trustworthy, sincere, above board Democrat.
Lol
If you want to have an argument about a race to the bottom, you will have alot of takers.
I was watched a that tax vote on cspan and I don't remember anything like that. I can't recall
Any reporting that.
3rdgrader: "The important thing that can't be passed up is ditching all the job creator taxes that allowed O Care to pay for and/or subsidize insurance for 24 million Americans."
Obambi and his Gruber-ites used 7 years of revenue collection to fund 4 years of outlays.
I don't expect you to be a rocket scientist but that fact alone puts the lie to EVERY Dem assertion regarding funding.
But only every single one.
That's precisely the kind of shenanigans that only the MSM and some "lifelong republicans" will obscure.
Harrogate: "Ann's attitude towards the 24 million losing health care is that it's "not interesting.""
Ann often finds politically inspired BS to be less than interesting.
Honest, trustworthy, sincere, above board Democrat.
Frankly, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer and the other Dems are more worthy of respect than Ryan and McConnell since they are up front about themselves and how they want to wreck everything.
24 million losing health care
And there is more dishonesty. There will not be 24 million losing health care any more than there were 24 million who gained health care under ObamaCare.
For one thing, ObamaCare isn't about health care! It is a financial/insurance law. You can have ObamaCare policies up the wazoo and it does not provide you or even guarantee you one moment of actual medical care.
For another thing, ObamaCare made the coverage so expensive that millions upon millions never signed up and did not have insurance at all because they could no longer afford it. People actually lost coverage. They could say that "millions gained health care under ObamaCare" only because ObamaCare made it illegal to be uninsured and hence you were automatically deemed to be included in the law.
All those "repeal Obamacare" votes meant nothing. Out of the 60 or so votes taken, all but a couple died in the Senate. Of the one or two that cleared both chambers, all were guaranteed to be vetoed by Obama.
Yup, and we didn't even know Trump was going to run in 2016, back then. Yet somehow, he got his short chubby little fingers on the GOP and FORCED them to vote like that.
It was all substantively unimportant messaging, to the Tea Party elements. Now it is a different time. Far more serious. With lots of opportunity, for skilled leaders.
In the immortal words of Drago: "LOL".
What "skilled leaders"? Ryan? McConnell? Are you REALLY excusing GOP "leaders" for flat-out lying to the people during those prior votes?
We Republicans were right to ridicule Democrats for the way they passed the ACA. We should not now repeat all of their mistakes. We can't, actually. Not without the 60 Senate votes Dems had in 2009.
Uh, "we" aren't doing any such thing. The GOP is. You may want to label this Trump's bill, and you will, because it fits your (and the left's) narrative (but I repeat myself). That said - the GOP had a genuine opportunity to send something to Trump's desk with teeth, and they didn't. If Trump is as you say he is, he would have vetoed it. For a guy who hates Trump as much as you, your thinking actually HELPS Trump.
Like I said before - TDS. It's totally blocked your ability to think reasonably.
"let Obamacare collapse all on its own"
This is still the probable outcome, and actually getting the action to the Senate does help the Republicans in a lot of ways by making the Democrats own more of the inaction. Drago yesterday proposed that the Republicans in the Senate may well let the Democrats filibuster something just so the Democrats bear blame for nothing happening. It of course does nothing to placate the base who wants the ACA repealed, but it does serve the purpose of allowing the Democrats continued ownership of the ACA.
The exchanges can only be saved if more funds are put into stabilizing the revenues to the insurers, or by making the penalty for not having coverage onerous enough to get everyone eligible to buy a policy. Neither of these are going to be done. So the outcome is already known.
Which is like popping champagne and spraying everybody in the locker room. At halftime. When the score is 3-0.
If Tom Brady is the quarterback it doesn't matter even if the score is 25-0.
Oops! Sorry about the football analogy, Madam Professor. It's like being at a red carpet event and hearing the Kim Kardashian is coming, only to discover that she has her underwear on.
That okay?
@harrogate, the last figures I saw indicated that if you take away the people on Medicaid there were more people without insurance in the first quarter of 2017 than were without insurance before Obamacare was implemented.
Mark: "Frankly, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer and the other Dems are more worthy of respect than Ryan and McConnell since they are up front about themselves and how they want to wreck everything."
I don't recall Pelosi and Schumer saying anything of the sort. In fact, quite the opposite, which destroys your thesis.
I Callahan: "For a guy who hates Trump as much as you, your thinking actually HELPS Trump."
For the love of pete Callahan, don't give away our secrets!
What do I have to do? Send over Peter Falk in full "Robin and the Seven Hoods" character to get you to "play ball"?
"Bad behavior starts from unrestrained emotion, and when there's no negative outcome for behaving badly, why would anybody expect bad behavior to not continue to happen? As long as their voters keep voting for them, and as long as it's ignored or rewarded, it will keep happening."
Yes, true. This is how Trump became President.
"There is very little doubt that it was a quagmire for the Dems."
Said the ARM who defended the ACA at every turn.
@3rd Grade I apologize that I don't have time to do a thorough analysis right now, but the fact check ( link) I looked at showed, as you mention, that the CBO failed, to project where the new insureds would go. With just a quick look I see that the CBO was off in its projection of private versus Medicaid by 50%. Right away that makes me suspicious that their cost estimates were also way off. I suspect Medicaid is more expensive than the subsidies ( and as we know health providers don't like Medicaid). I'll look that up when I have time.
If you and I were asked for budget numbers for our business and we were off in two categories by 50% we would no longer have jobs.
Here's another link that raises some serious questions about CBO's forecasting of insureds overall.
My personal feeling is that no matter how hard they try the CBO is essentially snatching numbers out of the air. There are too many variables.
ICallahan:
Trump doesn't know the first thing about health care reform. He doesn't even know if we should have a single-payer national health care system. He mystifyingly mentioned that last night.
Trump isn't going to lead on health care reform. For one thing, he doesn't understand it. For another, he doesn't care. All he wants is to be able to say that "we" (meaning "he") repealed "Obamacare."
Inga: "Yes, true. This is how Trump became President."
Indeed.
And if the Dems don't rein in their insanity the voters will continue to reject them.
It's nice when Inga recognizes some basic truths. This is probably a result of Feinsteins comments which have deflated the left regarding the fake Trump/Russia Collusion Lie to cover up Obambi spying on Americans.
Inga no doubt now realizes that a bit of restraint is called for.
Yes, true. This is how Trump became President.
Yes, true. The bad behavior of the Clintons made Trump President.
"lifelong republican" and Maddow Fanboy Chuck: "Trump doesn't know the first thing about health care reform."
I'm afraid it's you who know nothing about healthcare reform, which is why no one is knocking down your door to ask you to run their campaign.
At least on the republican side. However you would do quite well as a Democrat consultant. Peas in a pod, so to speak. (I couldn't think of a fashion analogy/metaphor)
@Mark It's not BS it's a fact of life. The repeal in 2016 was done via the Reconciliation process. Reconciliation can be passed with 51 vote. A new bill will never make it to debate.
From Wikipedia: "The House passed the Restoring Americans' Healthcare Freedom Reconciliation Act of 2015[25] on October 23, 2015 under the FY2016 budget reconciliation process, which prevents the possibility of a filibuster in the Senate. The bill would have partially repealed the provisions of the Affordable Care Act, notably the individual and employer mandates as well as the taxes on Cadillac insurance plans. Some conservatives in both the House and Senate opposed the bill because it did not completely repeal the Affordable Care Act, which would have been inconsistent with the rules governing budget reconciliation bills.[26] The bill was the 61st time that the House had voted to fully or partially repeal the Affordable Care act. The bill also would have removed federal funding for Planned Parenthood for one year. The bill was expected to be vetoed by President Obama should it pass the Senate.[27]
In early December, the Senate passed an amended version of the healthcare reconciliation bill, sending it back to the House.[28][29] It was passed by the House on January 6, 2016, and vetoed by President Obama on January 8, only the sixth veto of his presidency.[30] The House failed to override the President's veto on February on a vote of 241–186, which did not meet the required two-thirds supermajority.[31]"
Drago, how many comments have you made on this thread alone? Manic?
"lifelong republican" Chuck: "Trump isn't going to lead on health care reform."
Hmmm, whom to believe? Buffoon in MI who doesn't understand his own state or the Entire Republican House Leadership?
You know, it's a close call but I think I'll go with the entire Rep House Leadership.
Hmmm, I wonder if Maddow had a segment last night trashing Trump's leadership? That's how some narratives appear on this blog via the usual suspects.
Inga: "Drago, how many comments have you made on this thread alone? Manic?"
Would you be so kind as to link to you asking this question of anyone on the left?
Thanks in advance.
Khes,
Bottom line is what I said, the net number was good. But, there were more on Medicaid/care, fewer on ins cos, as I said.
And, I don't think ya need to do too much number crunching to grasp that the repeal and replace taking away a trillion dollars of taxes (over ten years) that were to be used to pay for and subsidize health care for folks will result in less health care for folks.
I'm just surprised to see that so many of you are trying to deny that this repeal and replace would result in a lot more folks w/o health care coverage.
If the Rs can't come up w/ a way of saying that it's okay to have more uncovered folks, it's hard to see how ya end up winning on this, since ya want to take away the funding. Ya gotta think of ways of saying it's okay that folks will lose health care. Stuff like: not having health care means freedom and liberty and getting rid of nannyness. Stuff like that.
If you concede that it's bad for folks to lose health care, you've lost. Trying to say that it's not clear that taking away a trillion dollars meant for subsidies and care will result in folks losing care because of CBO seems like the heavier lift.
Anwywho, if ya stick w/ the theory that folks can still be insured sans money to pay for it, it's probably gonna be a good idea to get this thing signed into law ASAP. The House voting before CBO finished a report was a good move. I'm not sure that you'd benefit from being questioned re your logic re the theory that ya can get everything you want for free because bean counters are dumb.
Chuck said...
All he wants is to be able to say that "we" (meaning "he") repealed "Obamacare."
This is my understanding. Nothing else explains the celebratory Rose Garden press conference when they are, at best, one third of the way through the process. It seems that Trump would be perfectly happy for the whole thing to just disappear now.
It all comes down to whether Democrats (the DNC, really) are competent enough to publicize the predatory Republicans' responsibility for skyrocketing the premium rates in states where they refused to cooperate with the ACA regulation. They did this to themselves. In states where the leadership was there to responsibly implement ACA, premiums went down. It's yet another simple story of Republican financial terrorism. We can expect the Stockholm Syndrome crowd here to keep pushing a story that ignores these facts.
The only question is whether the DNC will do so, too.
Mark: "Frankly, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer and the other Dems are more worthy of respect than Ryan and McConnell . . ."
. . . In fact, quite the opposite, which destroys your thesis
OK, fine, you win. Pelosi and Schumer aren't worthy of respect either.
There will not be 24 million losing health care any more than there were 24 million who gained health care under ObamaCare.
Check it out, everybody! An "alternative fact!"
Yep. This is why every physician and hospital organization opposes the repeal. They're pushing to lose all the new enrollees that the predatory Republicans have somehow not managed to provide.
Financial terrorism. They did it in hindering the 2009 recovery and they're doing it to the newly insured.
They are murderers. Their coverage scheme for preexisting conditions is a joke. People will die if this were to happen, make no mistake.
OK Rs, I'll get started w/ some jabber re liberty and such.
Look at what the Feds, w/ Medicaid, are paying for: school stuff. That's not God Lovin' freedom. So, we, the Rs, are here w/ the most soothing words in the English language: we're from the gov and we're hear to remove help.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/03/us/politics/health-bill-medicaid-special-education-affordable-care-act.html?mabReward=ACTM1&recp=2&action=click&pgtype=Homepage®ion=CColumn&module=Recommendation&src=rechp&WT.nav=RecEngine&_r=0
You're welcome.
hear not hear
"Financial terrorism. They did it in hindering the 2009 recovery and they're doing it to the newly insured."
At least the W years demonstrated the brilliance of R policies.
At least the W years demonstrated the brilliance of R policies.
1. Slowly chip away at competent public infrastructure and statecraft.
2. Wait for the disaster this brings.
3. Blame it on the Democrat who gets elected to fix it. ("He's not fixing our fuck-ups fast enough!")
4. Campaign on something else and do it again -- this time by screwing up something different, so the people don't catch on.
3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...
At least the W years demonstrated the brilliance of R policies.
Not for everyone. Some here still resist that lesson.
At least the W years demonstrated the brilliance of R policies.
Republicans want to kill off everyone who's not a high-value donor and their supporters here are either ok with that or suicidally ignorant.
Don't small business associations also oppose the repeal?
It's possible that the Republicans finally really fucked themselves into a corner with this one.
Couldn't happen to a nicer party.
And here comes TTR to once again prove he doesn't know his ass from his elbow with respect to Obamacare. But even more stupid is your view that somehow Republicans didn't bend over and let themselves be cornholed by this abortion of a law, and that's the reason it's a failure. No, it couldn't be pricing patients, hospitals and physicians out of the market. That COULDN'T be it. With all of the pretty packaging, and all of the magical fairy dust in this thing, I can't believe those dastardly Republicans even had the ability to cause it to fail.
I addressed this weapons grade stupidity in my 1:15 PM comment today. And I'm in the business, so don't tell me who's "for" and "against" this POS - there are plenty of people in the business who knew this bill was an abortion to begin with, but the media had a narrative to run with so people like TTR would have some fake knowledge with which to get snarky.
This is your one chance to STFU. Because you're WAY out of your element. If you don't, I'm going to wipe the floor with you in this comment section. You've been warned.
I addressed this weapons grade stupidity in my 1:15 PM comment today. And I'm in the business, so don't tell me who's "for" and "against" this POS - there are plenty of people in the business who knew this bill was an abortion to begin with, but the media had a narrative to run with so people like TTR would have some fake knowledge with which to get snarky.
Oh, like Aetna, for instance? The company that was found in court to have LIED ABOUT and MISREPRESENTED its business practices?
This is your one chance to STFU. Because you're WAY out of your element. If you don't, I'm going to wipe the floor with you in this comment section. You've been warned.
YOU shut the FUCK up, murderer in a business suit. Since I'm not one of your Stockholm Syndrome Addicts, facts don't scare me. You haven't cited a single fucking one; just a bunch of rhetoric, an appeal to your own supposed authority and threats to others who dare to speak out. You're going to threaten the AMA? Who else? The hospital organizations? NO ONE supports what you fuckfaces are up to and whatever you paid the congress critters to do. Go and show me the doctors and hospitals complaining that they prefer what the murderers did today. They didn't. Their credibility against a fucking insurance bureaucrat's or sales agent? That's hilarious. Your own pond scum have credibility and trustworthiness ratings lower than lawyers.
But do feel free to go on and keep politicking. Your rhetoric, vulgarity and inability to provide a single fact all speak for themselves.
I do hope it works on the low info crowd here that you're angling for, though. But not on the people who's lives have been saved, and their stories accumulate every year that you fail to deny them coverage, ASSHOLE.
"This is your one chance to STFU. Because you're WAY out of your element. If you don't, I'm going to wipe the floor with you in this comment section. You've been warned."
Oh Lordy, someone is full of themselves.
@TTR MN has abided by the Obamacare Regs and individual policy premiums rose last year by an average of 53%. What's your next argument?
The toothless revolutionary reeks of the stench of defeat. What a ridiculous loser.
The toothless revolutionary reeks of the stench of defeat. What a ridiculous loser.
The only thing you won is a BS bill destined to fail in the adults' Chamber that doesn't protect for preexisting conditions and will lead to an increase in the rate of the uninsured. Physicians feel defeated. Hospitals feel defeated. I'm not sure anyone doesn't feel defeated except for The Devil Paul Ryan and The Narcissist-in-Chief. Then you've got the bean counter yelling at me who's not done a thing for these people all these years and who even knows what side he's on.
You want to cheerlead killing people, go right ahead. Just come on out and admit that that's what you're about, you slimy coward.
http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2017/05/05/gov-scott-walker-would-consider-dropping-pre-existing-condition-coverage-rules-wisconsin/101327456/
"The House on Thursday approved a bill to overhaul the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare, that would allow states to opt out of requirements for insurers on how they cover people with pre-existing conditions.
"That's something we certainly would consider," Walker said to reporters at a morning event promoting tourism. "It depends on the conditions, and again, what's in the House bill could be very different than what's in the Senate bill and what finally comes to the president. So I'm going to wait till I see what's in the final version.""
Morons in Wisconsin who voted for Walker and Trump brought this upon themselves.
OK, chief, you stepped in it.
Oh, like Aetna, for instance? The company that was found in court to have LIED ABOUT and MISREPRESENTED its business practices?
The fact is that Aetna, and EVERY OTHER insurer IS losing money on these exchanges. Despite what was found by a judge. If you'd bothered to read the story on the case, you'd have learned that.
YOU shut the FUCK up, murderer in a business suit. Since I'm not one of your Stockholm Syndrome Addicts, facts don't scare me.
I wear a polo shirt. Nice try, though.
You haven't cited a single fucking one; just a bunch of rhetoric, an appeal to your own supposed authority and threats to others who dare to speak out. You're going to threaten the AMA? Who else? The hospital organizations? NO ONE supports what you fuckfaces are up to and whatever you paid the congress critters to do. Go and show me the doctors and hospitals complaining that they prefer what the murderers did today. They didn't. Their credibility against a fucking insurance bureaucrat's or sales agent? That's hilarious. Your own pond scum have credibility and trustworthiness ratings lower than lawyers.
Is there some kind of point to this rambling bullshit? I don't even see a theme. If you can revise this and at least show me what I'm supposed to address. I'd suggest you wipe the screen of the spew, first though. Then we can commence to kicking your whiny little ass.
But do feel free to go on and keep politicking. Your rhetoric, vulgarity and inability to provide a single fact all speak for themselves.
Irony. It's what's for dinner!
I do hope it works on the low info crowd here that you're angling for, though. But not on the people who's lives have been saved, and their stories accumulate every year that you fail to deny them coverage, ASSHOLE.
Double irony. Twice as delicious!!
Dear God, you are the dumbest, yet most full of himself, commenter in the history of the Professor's website. To the idiots who agree with you, you sound smart, but it sure takes a set of brass ones to complain someone else about rhetoric, vulgarity and inability to provide a single fact when that's exactly what you've done.
Now concentrate on a single issue regarding Obamacare, and show me how I'm wrong. Then I'll correct you.
Your turn, Bozo.
@TTR MN has abided by the Obamacare Regs and individual policy premiums rose last year by an average of 53%. What's your next argument?
I don't have to have only one argument because the whole picture is complex. Apparently a general rise was expected this year. I'm open to input from people without a stake in denying coverage, and since a bean counter above is already flying off his rocker, I figured I'd include what actuaries have to say. Here's one about how few states increased and adjusted for the small group market to go from 50 to 100 employees.
I'm sure the reasons for failure are complex, and it's even worse that it's so hard for find a straight scoop on any of this. (It's all been politicized beyond measure). So if anyone's got good data or explanations, by all means send it on.
But in the meantime, all I know is that the current House abomination that barely passed is a punishment to the pre-existing coverage clause and the previously uninsured, and I won't have a good word to say about it until that changes. All else, we can go on and on and on about. But I won't engage any of it seriously until those two abominations - which reveal who the House and Trump are in it for: THEMSELVES - change.
@#rd Grade I had no theory that you can get everything you want because bean counters are dumb. I respected your comments enough to make an effort to find some info that affirmed or denied your numbers. The numbers I found in the time I had for it were of questionable value . Forecasts that are off by 50% are not good forecasts as far as I am concerned. In the second link the author points out that the CBO does no forecast to actual reporting on itself, which in the real world is how you improve your forecasting.
As Big Mike,I think, emphasizes this whole debate is not about health CARE it's about health insurance. You are conflating the two. Some one else asks the very good question that: if health insurance were priced competitively and taxed equally for individuals and corporations why wouldn't you buy it.
OK, chief, you stepped in it.
Look! A German Shepherd Bean Counter leaves huge messes and believes he got people to step in them!
If you can revise this and at least show me what I'm supposed to address. I'd suggest you wipe the screen of the spew, first though. Then we can commence to kicking your whiny little ass.
(Much bloviating and no facts)
Your turn, Bozo.
Time for you to go back to counting beans.
The touch about accusing others of "spew" while following up with chest-beating nonsensical bullshit about "kicking whiny little ass" was about about as coherent as you get, I take it.
Do you often hyperventilate at your screen, throw around names, omit facts for paragraphs at a time, make threats, and THEN accuse others of "spewing?"
Trump is turning you into a two-faced Jekyll and Hyde weirdo.
Khes,
Presumably you can acknowledge that taking away a trillion dollars of help paying for health care for folks who can't afford it means that fewer folks will have health care.
It's really simple. Jabbering about CBO is not relevant to taking away a trillion dollars of health care re what that means for the folks who had been depending on that assistance. If for some reason the implication is not obvious to you: it means less folks w/ health care.
"I wear a polo shirt."
Psychos of a feather flock together.
I can't read all the comments. I've been out working, for those who know what that is.
R/V is hopeless and there is no point of responding.
Kinda counterproductive to turnaround and pay for their orthopedist after they're broken. A one way ticket on a southbound bus seems like a better solution.
I prefer building a wall to protect them from the evil contractors who would offer them jobs that Americans could do.
How about you ?
Obamacare has destroyed the existing US health care system. Most doctors now work for hospitals or do shift work in Urgent care clinics.
Teddy Kennedy, he of the extensive experience with work models, said US healthcare was "A cottage industry," which was fine with us. Now it is an industrial model which works so well with companies like Sears and Penny's.
I kind of agree with Krauthammer. The well has been poisoned. Maybe a cash market will arise but I wonder.
Despite what was found by a judge.
Anyone else believe insurance executives over the judges hearing their cases?
I didn't think so.
Aetna chose to stay in the markets where they were losing and withdraw from the markets where that wasn't the case.
Callahan still thinks we're in the era where people trust what CEOs have to say. Na na na na na. Goodbye.
"I prefer building a wall to protect them from the evil contractors who would offer them jobs that Americans could do.
How about you ?"
I'll only agree if we can get rid of the minimum wage, and get rid of job killing worker safety regulations and other worker rights.
Then we won't need illegals.
Did I Callahan figure out how he's going to sell his plan to deny coverage to pre-existing conditions and reduce the rolls of the insured, yet?
Just a reminder, for anyone who wasn't sure if he'd ever get around to any substance.
We all know he'll do his best to explain those gems, sooner or later.
Patience, everybody.
"We all know he'll do his best to explain those gems, sooner or later."
The invisible Rand of Reagan will make it all work out cause God said so.
Duh.
I'm getting some pizza. Let me know when the loud, messy German Shepherd who's chomping at the bit to expose patients with pre-existing conditions to his boss's best predatory instincts or the previously uninsured has an actual fact to say.
He does bark very loudly, though. I'm sure that's impressive, to him.
I do wonder how many times it's possible to refresh the screen and not see anything new or substantive by an insurance company peon on steroids that informs anyone of anything factual - beyond his two rage-induced screeds.
Were you under the impression that your sound and fury was signifying something, Callahan?
I think this tarbaby is going to be like "The Irish Question" in British politics and bring down a lot of governments before it is done.
Did they remove Obamacare's penalty for preexisting conditions, specifically birth?
Did they confront the anti-capitalists, the progressive costs, and restore function of the market?
Did they remove Obamacare's incentive for Planning... a merger of Cult and State?
Lying fuckhead smear-merchant Drago calls me a "Rachel Maddow fanboy" because I posted one link to one extended interview, by Maddow, of Kellyane Conway (remember Kellyanne Conway?) early in the Trump Administration. It was a really good interview, and in fact I congratulated Kellyanne on doing a remarkably good job in a hopeless task which at that time (about 275 scandals ago, in Trump-time) was about some stupid Trump comments about nuclear weapons, among others.
That's it. One good interview (I still say it was good) and a link to let all the readers look at it for themselves and make up their own minds. For that, and because I have the temerity to criticize Trump in a Trump safespace for all the Trumpkin snowflakes. So Drago -- the low-grade troll that he is -- tries to discredit me as a left-wing plant and a lover of the left- wing MSNBC.
Drago you are such a waste of time. I just wanted everybody else here who was new or who didn't know how you played these games to know what at slimy, Trumpian dirtbag you really are.
>>The song then became a sports anthem after being played on the organ at White Sox games.
We used to sing it at the end of winning basketball games at my high school (graduated in '71) a couple of miles away from Comiskey (which my brother the priest called "the cathedral of the South Side" at my father's funeral mass) at least a few years before Harry Caray showed up from St. Louis and the song got picked up by the White Sox. We welcomed HC especially for his earlier taunting of the Cubs, even though he subsequently went over to the dark side. And don't set me off on our Mussolini cheer . . .
--gpm
At the time of the passage of the 1993 tax bill, the Democrats had held the house continually for more than 40 years and no one thought the Republicans could win control. As I recall the 1994 changeover was an unexpected major event. I don't think anyone was taunting on the floor. I'm sure that Robert Michel wouldn't have tolerated it - he didn't even like Newt, then his Whip, saying derogatory things about democratic members of Congress. I haven't seen one link to a contemporary article describing this supposed taunting by Republicans. I do remember the Democrats making fools of themselves after they lost the House.
Am I really the only person who thinks of "Bananarama" before "Steam"?
"Did they remove Obamacare's penalty for preexisting conditions, specifically birth?"
If by this you mean did they get rid of the Individual Mandate, my understanding is yes, actually, at least in the current House version. And a whole bunch of other stuff too.
This is from the comments at Instapundit for a link to an Andrew Klavan article where he non-sarcastically says the current bill isn't that bad. Although this isn't sourced in that comment, if true, it does seem pretty significant:
https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/264217/#respond
"-Abolishes the Obamacare Individual Mandate Tax which hits 8 million Americans each year.
-Abolishes the Obamacare Employer Mandate Tax. Together with repeal
of the Individual Mandate Tax repeal this is a $270 billion tax cut.
-Abolishes Obamacare’s Medicine Cabinet Tax which hits 20 million
Americans with Health Savings Accounts and 30 million Americans with
Flexible Spending Accounts. This is a $6 billion tax cut.
-Abolishes Obamacare’s Flexible Spending Account tax on 30 million Americans. This is a $20 billion tax cut.
-Abolishes Obamacare’s Chronic Care Tax on 10 million Americans with
high out of pocket medical expenses. This is a $126 billion tax cut.
-Abolishes Obamacare’s HSA withdrawal tax. This is a $100 million tax cut.
-Abolishes Obamacare’s 10% excise tax on small businesses with indoor tanning services. This is a $600 million tax cut.
-Abolishes the Obamacare health insurance tax. This is a $145 billion tax cut.
-Abolishes the Obamacare 3.8% surtax on investment income. This is a $172 billion tax cut.
-Abolishes the Obamacare medical device tax. This is a $20 billion tax cut.
-Abolishes the Obamacare tax on prescription medicine. This is a $28 billion tax cut.
-Abolishes the Obamacare tax on retiree prescription drug coverage. This is a $2 billion tax cut."
If true...that ain't a bad start at all. I'm going to hold off on bitching and see how it plays out in the Senate.
The ACA only ever was a revenge fantasy for Obama to punish those "evil" insurance companies for "killing" his freeloader mother. Now that it's going away, perhaps we can begin to forget about Stanley Anne and all the havoc she wreaked on our nation.
Look who came by, everybody, to show us what happens when he sniffs too many volatile organics. Wasn't that nice of him!
Am I alone in thinking these savages are overpaid?
Q: What do you call it if Congress was hit by a North Korean nuclear weapon, and killed every peasant representative?
A: A good start!
If by this you mean did they get rid of the Individual Mandate, my understanding is . . .
If you go to the House website and look at the text of the actual bill, the answer technically is NO. They did not get rid of the individual mandate -- they did however set the penalty at zero percent of income and zero dollars.
As for the employer mandate, they again set SOME of those "tax" penalties at zero dollars, but other penalties they left intact, namely the minimum coverage provisions upon which the HHS contraceptive mandate is based. So while Trump with his executive order is purporting to provide relief from the offensive, unconstitutional contraceptive mandate, Congress is effectively keeping it. And without Congress getting rid of it by legislative action, it can always be re-imposed by this or subsequent presidents.
Yet another time when the Republican Establishment in Congress lied and is giving a big FU to the people who elected them.
I agree nobody would have ever died, ever, in the future had the terrorists in the GOP not future-murdered every single individual who dies after today because of the House vote.
PEOPLE WOULD NOT HAVE DIED IN THE FUTURE BUT NOW WILL BECAUSE YOU ARE EVILER THAN HITLER TIMES A HUNDRED!
Dumb stupid dumbed-down-and-up dummy's dumbness endumbnifies.
!
I've decided to embrace my new identity as mass murderer, and it feels strange yet I feel as though the deaths will empower my sense of divineness, as I didn't die ergo per Darwin I am really now someone.
Lucky for me I don't have any money as I would be forced to give it all away as it solves all problems everywhere all the time, as our $20 trillion in debt has shown each and everyone of us. Surely if we were $40 Trillion counted worth of financial tenderness called debt as of today there wouldn't be, nor ever be of course, anything in existence not perfectly Utopic.
Money and the love of its complete, absolute power to erase bad things is stronger philosophy than Descartes and his cognito BS ever declaimed.
Hey, if we confiscate all wealth above 40 acres and a mule Heaven will be considered a distinctly Earthly location, amirite???
We could use all that money to buy everyone everything they want or might want, as well as what they need whether they are aware of it or not.
How could you evil evil bad folks ever argue you get to keep what you have, as if there were such a thing as "private property" instead of what we know to be genocidal sadistic death-mongers keeping the little guy down?
You give your shit away, all of it, or forever acknowledge you had and have the power to solve all problems with your filthy lucre but choose to enjoy the deaths of those you feel superior to because you greedily didn't trust the government to provide for you your daily bread and water.
". Maybe a cash market will arise but I wonder."
It is inevitable.
"Wherever a market exists, that market will be filled."
The pulling of hair. The knashing of teeth. "Oh, my god! What are we going to doooooooo(sob)"
What did you do before?
What? Oh, yeah.
It's great that billionaires have loser peon-serfs like Qwinn to "look after" their own financial interests and greed.
"lifelong republican" and Noted Fanboy of leftist hack "journalist" John Dickerson Chuck: "Drago you are such a waste of time. I just wanted everybody else here who was new or who didn't know how you played these games to know what at slimy, Trumpian dirtbag you really are."
I, a Cruz supporter who moved to Trump after the election dynamics became inevitable during the primaries, am sorry that you now regret your very own operational support for every single Democrat talking point and meme using a bevy of far left hacks to support your claims.
I am surprised you even have time for that given your gleeful trafficking in rumors about certain children.
I imagine those tactics somehow make you feel better about your life and your public pronouncement failures and embarrassments.
We all wish you the best in your personal struggles but that doesn't mean we ought not point out the obvious.
Well, Guild. You need to impress upon toothless that "The Wealthiest Nation On Earth" didn't get that way by taxing the shit out of its productive citizens. Maybe there should be a surtax on public pensions. Since most if not all of the usual suspects seem to have public sector jobs.
That's funny that you have such strong opinions on wealth, Rusty - seeing as how little of it you have. And your analysis is as whacked as ever. The U.S. was the wealthiest country while it was taxing the shit out of your masters in 1950. But that's because war was what allowed for that ranking, as it did in 1920. Other countries high up on that list were NZ, SW, etc. Who even knows where the U.S., with all its non-regulation of hedge fund managers, is now. By PPP, not at the top. But then, you don't care about PPP. That would involve interest in the citizens.
BTW, since you worship wealth so much, when will you start kissing my ass? I'm pretty sure I make a lot more than you do.
Aside from admiring Dubai and China, it's a wonder how you spend your days.
TTR: "Who even knows where the U.S., with all its non-regulation of hedge fund managers, is now. By PPP, not at the top. But then, you don't care about PPP. That would involve interest in the citizens."
I don't think PPP tells much of the story. I'm not saying it's not important or uninteresting, but let's face it, if you really start breaking that metric down you have to chat about the specifics about the total population (including absolute scale and the difference that brings, demographics, "recent" rates of growth/immigration and by what people's, etc).
You see where that is going.
Is it really meaningful in any way to compare the US to any of those much smaller nation's? Probably not.
But it is interesting nonetheless.
TTR: "BTW, since you worship wealth so much, when will you start kissing my ass? I'm pretty sure I make a lot more than you do."
Hmmm, how much more, would you say?
If you were to do any local banking, with what bank might that be with? Hey, what was your mom's maiden name again?
I've got this cousin in Nigeria...
Lol. You should check out this website "ebolamonkeyman" for hilarious punking efforts of those princes.
Good point about PPP. A nation's power matters. But if the people aren't in on it, we're headed for another Russia. And not the good way that everyone likes in 2017. The other way.
The Massai heard cattle.
They beieve they are the only ligitimate hearders of cattle on earth.
Therefore.
If you own any cattle. You stole them from the Massai.
That's what the usual suspects remind me of.
"Billionaire hedgefund managers"
Obviously ,to the usual suspects, if you have millions or billions of dollars you stole them from them.
It's what makes their rans so amusing.
"Insurance" is not "health care,"
This. A thousand times this.
TTR, I did check out the site and I was in stitches after reading just one thread. The communication and cultural disconnects makes for ample opportunities for shenanigans.
The Dems were probably singing the "na-na-na" song to liberty.
I'm so old I remember Ted Cruz' Obamacare grandstanding ahead of the 2014 shutdown that cost Republicans Democratic control of the Senate and 13 Dem House seats.
I don't particularly care one way or another. The only reason I voted for Trump was the Supreme Court nominee. He delivered on that. Tax reform would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath. I got all I expected.
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