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Headline at The Washington Post.
The White House on Monday night released a list of 78 terrorist attacks in response to an assertion earlier in the day by President Trump that the “very dishonest press” often doesn’t report on them.
The list, which includes domestic and overseas incidents, starts in September 2014. It includes some very heavily covered news events, including last year’s attack at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando and the mass shooting and attempted bombing in San Bernardino, Calif., in 2015.
Top-rated comment:
Biggest terror attack media under-reported on: Russian hack of American Election.
Number of victims: over 300 million Americans and the rest of the world
Result: The take over of American Institutions by those who wish to destroy the nation from the inside.
Beneficiaries: Donald Trump's bank account, Putin, Russian Mob, ISIS recruiting, dictators around the world, KKK, right-wing and left wing news media, and the military-industrial complex.
That's the under-reporting that needs to be dealt with.
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159 comments:
Congratulations to UnknownInga for having the top rated comment at the Washington Post!
That the Russians Hacked the Election is now an article of faith in the holy church of modern liberalism. And arguing against faith is an exercise in futility.
and the military-industrial complex
As you might have seen recently, about half of our F-18's are not ready for air operations, mostly for maintenance reasons. There was an incident a couple years ago where the Marines took parts from a museum...that's how bad it's gotten.
You can bitch and moan about all things militaryindustrialcomplex, but the long and short of it is that if we don't maintain our conventional military and our ability to project power, someone else will and they likely won't give a shit what some pinhead in a comments section thinks about the ability to field a war-winning force.
Let truth be Twittered, let it be done.
Underreported can also refer to the lack of "related" reporting - i.e. ties to Islam, ties to government policies, whether attacks are part of worldwide pattern. But that's not convenient to the narrative.
NBC says they reported on 57 of the attacks. Thereby disproving that the list of 78 attacks was not underreported.
Red meat !
"It includes some very heavily covered news events, including last year’s attack at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando and the mass shooting and attempted bombing in San Bernardino, Calif., in 2015."
-- I remember when they both happened that the press did its level best to insist that the Pulse nightclub attack was a purely Americanized homophobic attack, as opposed to what it seems to be now that we have more information, and the San Bernadino attack, even Obama took some time to admit was terrorism, for a while clinging to thinking it was workplace violence.
Yes, the news covered them, but in the classic "Fake News" way in which every error always helps one side while hurting the other.
Made the media talk about terror attacks. And deny they are doing a bad/dishonest job. Another news cycle won. So much winning.
There has still been no proof provided to support allegations the Russians hacked the DNC emails or otherwise influenced the presidential election. By refusing to acknowledge they lost the election because Hillary was intensely disliked and offered nothing to working people, they devise elaborate fantasies blaming everyone else in the world.
(Does no one see the black irony of Putin being accused of committing journalism, revealing to the world Hillary's emails? If the content of those emails had any effect at all on the election, isn't that damning to Hillary, rather than to Putin?)
THe Bowling Green capture of two Iraq refugee and IED terrorists was under reported to the point the MSM now claims it never happened.
Yet another signpost on the road to the death of irony. The core supporters of Hillary Clinton had no interest in the issue of hacking when the public was wondering about her illegal email server. Her campaign had no interest in letting the FBI determine if hacking had taken place. (Bleachbit cough cough) Then the DNC had so little interest in how their servers were hacked that they denied the FBI access to their system even after it was obvious (Wikileaks cough cough) that Debbie Blabbermouth Schulz and John Cadaverous Podesta were both exposed with no credible denial of the contents that were published.
And the hardcore lefties now claim hacking is the reason Hillary lost.
So should we investigate the election to make sure there was no hacking or illegal voting?
"No no no you're racists!"
Irony Dead, next exit.
Of course the response from the press is, "Hey, we covered that one!"
"Underreported" is a weasely standard--who's to say something wasn't reported enough? What metric are we using? If it is not covered top of the fold for three days, is that underreporting? Should the media cover something happening in a foreign country to the same extent it would cover an event here? Is body count the determining factor as to reporting, or the uniqueness of the attack (e.g., a shooter in a crowd vs. someone blowing up a subway)?
It's worthy of analyzing, but that's not what we get here.
WaPo is the house organ for the federal bureaucracy. What do you expect ?
I agree with Nonapod. There's no evidence even that Putin preferred Trump to Clinton, but blaming Russia is yet another article of faith for Dumbocrats and so it shall be, now and forever, amen.
""Underreported" is a weasely standard--who's to say something wasn't reported enough?"
-- I think the best way to determine it is to find people who actually consume news and ask them questions about it, and see what they recall; what they incorrectly recall but was actually reported; what they incorrectly recall but was not reported; etc. I don't know though how you could control something like that to get *useful* data.
"I agree with Nonapod. There's no evidence even that Putin preferred Trump to Clinton, but blaming Russia is yet another article of faith for Dumbocrats and so it shall be, now and forever, amen."
-- It is much like with Palin and Bush. They can't admit that someone they deem "stupid" ever got the better of them at any level ever, so they make a conspiracy to salve their pride.
Some highlights from Radar jamming and deception:
Cloaking the outgoing signal with random noise makes it more difficult for a jammer to figure out the frequency that a radar is operating on.
Chaff is made of different length metallic strips, which reflect different frequencies, so as to create a large area of false returns in which a real contact would be difficult to detect. Modern chaff is usually aluminum coated glass fibers of various lengths. Their extremely low weight and small size allows them to form a dense, long lasting cloud of interference.
The jamming of bat sonar by certain tiger moth species has recently been confirmed.
I'm not one to think of Trump is a Machiavellian master of political misdirection, but the media's confused overreaction to his idiot tweets could change my mind.
Trump is the Tiger Moth.
The trail of tears while waging social justice from Tripoli to Damascus to Kiev and beyond.
America invades Ukraine. Ukrainians take refugee in the Crimea.
Liberals judge people by the "color of their skin" (i.e. [class] diversity).
Human evolution begins at conception.
Liberals, and Progressives, deny life unworthy for political progress.
It wasn't dead Soviets that influenced our election. It wasn't Deep Plunger who overflowed Clinton's Water Closet. It wasn't even the Nigerian Phishers who hooked a big one at the DNC. It was the NYT channeling Communist Chinese.
Objectively, on the sheer numbers and lives affected, the Social Complex (pun intended), including abortion industry, have done greater damage to our society, nation, and humanity than any military in recent memory.
I remembered why I love Robert Cook, @ 9:45.
"Putin Commited Journalism."That's a phrase for the ages.
I counted eight U.S. attacks. All of them got more or less wall-to-wall breathless real time coverage. I knew about all of the U.S. attacks the same day, within hours of their occurrences. (And did you see, how many times "attack" was misspelled? Was that a White House misspelling?) WaPo reports it as "the list, unedited, as released by the White House":
So is Trump complaining about the lying biased media in Egypt? In Pakistan? In "DENMAKR"?
Embarrassing.
Bad!
So-called White House.
Do I need to remind you people that PURPLE ELEPHANTS are not available for press coverage?
Biggest terror attack media under-reported on: Russian hack of American Election.
Fake news can travel halfway around the world while the truth is Putin on its shoes.
This is fake news about the almost wall to wall coverage of terror events not committed by refugees promoted by a "so called" president.
Putin stood his ground with friends and allies, whereas we forced refugee crises through policies and proxies. This is a departure from America's tradition "you will not stand alone". It's not as if the terrorists presented the same obstacle as the Axis powers, Soviet Union, Maoist China, etc. This was clearly demonstrated in Iraq, if ultimately only halfheartedly. Elections have consequences.
Chuck, so called, cannot help discussing the PURPLE ELEPHANT phenomenon.
The space between so called Chuck's ears is on let, rent free.
4 years of this.
traditionalguy said...
THe Bowling Green capture of two Iraq refugee and IED terrorists was under reported to the point the MSM now claims it never happened.
No, the media are having fun with the fact that it wasn't ever a "massacre." And not so much the news media. Comedy programs and commentators, far less than any reporters, are having fun with it.
Why not? If I were a news editor, and day after day Trump called me and my colleagues liars and fabricators and dishonest, I'd go out of my way to find the most iron-clad and irrefutable examples of Trump's lying and fabricating and dishonesty.
Here's my attitude. "If somebody hits me, I have to hit them back. I have to. I'm not going to sit there [and take it]... What happens is they hit me and I hit them back harder and, usually in all cases, they do it first. But they hit me first and I hit them back harder and they disappear."
All of those quotes, by the way, are from Mr. Donald J. Trump. As reported by Breitbart.
http://www.breitbart.com/video/2016/04/03/trump-if-someone-hits-me-i-have-to-hit-them-back-harder-thats-what-we-want-to-lead/
Chuck, so called, cannot understand how Trump is choosing the terrain for the battles that are fought. So called Chuck is a status quo tactician.
Cook is right, and for the pleasure of agreeing with him, I'll just repeat what he said:
"There has still been no proof provided to support allegations the Russians hacked the DNC emails or otherwise influenced the presidential election. By refusing to acknowledge they lost the election because Hillary was intensely disliked and offered nothing to working people, they devise elaborate fantasies blaming everyone else in the world. (Does no one see the black irony of Putin being accused of committing journalism, revealing to the world Hillary's emails? If the content of those emails had any effect at all on the election, isn't that damning to Hillary, rather than to Putin?)"
Dems are saying that revelations of their actual communications swayed the elections, that once Americans found out what Dems really did and thought, they ran in horror to the GOP. That's how "the Russians" "hacked" the election.
And that space between Chuck's ears is vast. It contains multitudes.
Snark aside, if there is something that might be a terrorist attack, the initial default press position is "Motive is unknown or unclear". Fallback is "work place violence". Third line of defence is "Well he was yelling Alluhah Akbar as he shot the joint up, but that doesn't mean he was a Muslim".
And so it goes. As I recall (and perhaps my memory is faulty) at least one or more of Obama's administrators claimed that the Obama administration had detected and prevented many terrorist attacks in the USA. So Obama claims credit for terrorist attacks that didn 't happen due to the outstanding competence of the Obama administration.
And Trump says that there were a lot of attacks that actually did happen, but got "under reported".
Who am I going to believe? Obama or my own lying eyes?
@readering, make that eight.
Looking over some of the attacks, I get why they were under/unreported. Just look at the U.S. ones: Two officers wounded in New York; Garland, TX, shooting was covered extensively; no casualties at Boston; Merced, CA, four knife woundings; San Bernadino (See above); Philadelphia, one wounded; Columbus, OH, machete attack AND vehicles; Orlando Night club; St. Cloud; NY/NJ bombing -- some of those just didn't bleed enough to lead, you could say.
"And the hardcore lefties now claim hacking is the reason Hillary lost."
Wrong. You're referring to hardcore Democratic loyalists, not the same thing at all.
The "hardcore lefties" hate Hillary Clinton, rightly seeing her as simply another apparatchik for the deep state...another Bill Clinton, George Bush or Barack Obama, in other words, but less likable than any of those.
@Comanche, correction. The space between Chuck's ears is not vast. It is only half-vast. Like the rest of him.
"So is Trump complaining about the lying biased media in Egypt?"
So terror attacks in other countries should not be covered by US media? Or is it just attacks in Muslim countries that don't count?
And for the US attacks, "covered" often means "asserted to be caused by right-wingers." See, for example, this NYT piece on the Orlando massacre.
I wonder what the salary for White House spell checker is?
There may be a job for Chuck in the Trump administration after all.
The actual content of the actual motivation of actual Muslims is always "underreported."
Oh Chuck, you faggot, how disappointing, someone said you had flounced off, for good I thought. Why don't you come back as your sockpuppets Craig or Chris Sousa, start fresh. Well, not fresh fresh but at least we'll have to pay attention as if you were a human being. However briefly before you give the game away again.
You must be a rotten lawyer.
Ñ.n,
Please stop tonguing commie holes. We did nothing wrong in Ukraine. How can you blame anyone for resisting the Russians' embrace? But I will say that while I can't credit slipping the election, I will say that if you want to see what makes him happy, look at what the Democratic left is doing. This chaos, this insanity could not be more to his liking. Not possibly.
Just remember, the Russians default to evil, but we have to deal with them constructively anyway if we possibly can. Let's simply keep our eyes open about it and skip the paeans of praise.
that strange sensation when you completely agree with robert cook @9:45... it may not happen often, but when yer right, yer right.
Please, in the future, refer to Chuck's so called space between the ears. It's easier to distinguish Chuck, so called, from lower case chuck.
Orlando was under covered in the sense that the media lost interest after using it as a bludgeon against Christians, who had literally nothing to do with it. This was the point where I just started treating the media as the enemy. It was such a baldfaced and ridiculous lie that it became apparent that this was either intentional propaganda or that the media was so utterly incompetent that they deserved no respect whatsoever. It was a real event but deeply soaked in fake news. When the initial story that the shooter was a closeted gay man unraveled due to lack of evidence and it became clear that he was doing ISIS work, they moved on.
Far more 'under-reported' and largely unreported, are the many thwarted terrorist attacks both here and abroad. We wouldn't want to promote 'Islamophobia', now would we?
"-- I think the best way to determine it is to find people who actually consume news and ask them questions about it, and see what they recall; what they incorrectly recall but was actually reported; what they incorrectly recall but was not reported; etc. I don't know though how you could control something like that to get *useful* data."
That's just it--I'm sure someone could go around saying there wasn't enough reporting on 9/11 because it eventually dropped off of front page coverage, or maybe it wasn't mentioned in the sports section.
What we usually hear is that the media doesn't report enough on world events (e.g., an election in Turkey, a natural disaster in Pakistan) because our readers only focus on what they can relate to or hits home (e.g., a mother murdering her kids in Kansas). But by and large media is driven by money and money dictates that they follow what they think their listeners will respond to. Why cover Turkey's election results on your front page if most of your readers wont' bother to read it?
Case in point--Althouse believes her readers respond best to posts about Trump, Bob Dylan, photos of nature, and Lena Dunham. We're making her write those posts!
I don't know how to quantify it, but I do get the sense that crimes committed by the Dylan Roofs and Timothy McVeighs get more intense and more lasting coverage than those committed by the Haddads and the Mohammeds. This observation may be a reflection of my own bias, but it is certainly true that Muslims produce more mass murderers than white Americans, and the media never examines why this is so........In the larger popular culture, the movies and tv shows, Americans are reminded that our nation is in constant peril from rogue CIA agents and white extremists. We are instructed that America has far more to fear from white bigots than from any other subset in America. White bigots are defined as anyone who voted for Trump.
"This observation may be a reflection of my own bias, but it is certainly true that Muslims produce more mass murderers than white Americans...."
How do you know this to be true?
Just another gem of a conspiracy theory from Alex Jones and Info Wars. Trump praised him during the campaign.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/02/06/trumps-suggestion-that-the-media-is-ignoring-terrorist-attacks-has-a-familiar-source-infowars/?utm_term=.2fb317abc934
"President Trump made a whopper of a claim on Monday, suggesting that the media is deliberately ignoring terrorist attacks.
"It’s gotten to a point where it’s not even being reported," he said to military leaders at U.S. Central Command. "And in many cases the very, very dishonest press doesn’t want to report it. They have their reasons, and you understand that."
The comments would seem to be a response to the hubbub over Kellyanne Conway having repeatedly cited a non-existent terror attack in Bowling Green, Ky., in recent days. But Trump doesn't appear to have totally invented this theory on the fly.
Instead, the kernel of the idea appears to have come from -- or at least been propagated by -- one of his favorite news sources: the conspiracy theory website InfoWars."
Robert Cook said...
"This observation may be a reflection of my own bias, but it is certainly true that Muslims produce more mass murderers than white Americans...."
How do you know this to be true?
2/7/17, 10:58 AM
Because otherwise we would have recruited them all and sent them to the Middle East and ended all life there.
Add to the list of underreporting by the media the underreporting of the Clintons--sexual predation, smear campaigns, pay to play, etc.
"Why cover Turkey's election results on your front page if most of your readers wont' bother to read it?"
The underreported aspect of terrorism is the word "Muslim."
When I read an account of a crime and the name and race is not mentioned I assume black or Muslim.
In Britain is is "South Asian" as if Vietnamese are committing massacres or mass rapes in Britain.
Muslims produce more mass murderers than white Americans...."
How do you know this to be true?
I guess you could ask to define "mass murder" but Muslims are racking up a pretty good score.
Fort Hood and Orlando are starters.
Psychotics are also getting their licks in since we have no mental health care anymore.
the hubbub over Kellyanne Conway having repeatedly cited a non-existent terror attack in Bowling Green, Ky., in recent days.
No, lefty, a Thwarted terror attack, The real one that was successful was in Chattanooga.
"Fort Hood and Orlando are starters."
Okay...that's two
"This observation may be a reflection of my own bias, but it is certainly true that Muslims produce more mass murderers than white Americans...."
How do you know this to be true?
Great question. It is a math question, yes?
If Muslims makes up 1% of the US population, then how many more white American mass murders must their be so that white Americas produce more?
It would have to be something like 70 times as many.
Is that right?
So if someone were to start at say 11 SEP 2001 and count the number of people involved in actual mass murder and then divide that group into each category: Muslim and white American (and Other). Would the ratio be 70 to 1?
I do not know. I would bet it would be less than 70 to 1.
I remember watching CNN the night of the San Bernardino shootings, CNN was pushing the workplace violence narrative long into the night.
They do cover this shit up. The whole point to the fight is not to do what Europe now regrets but has yet to admit to itself.
"Fort Hood and Orlando are starters."
9/11? Worst mass murder in US history, 2600 dead, a hundred billion dollar hit to the economy, iconic building destroyed, crime committed by a pack of Muslims here on visas, 189 killed in the pentagon attack, 44 people killed on flight 93.
How do you know this to be true?
Well, Cookie, you might start by reading up on the history of Islam.
You may, of course, claim that this is not peculiar to Islam, just typical of how they do wars east of Suez, but the worst that has happened in America has never been anything like that.
You know what was really under reported? The number of bombs the military has dropped over the past 8 years. They weren't reporting it within the government, and the media wasn't reporting it.
But.....the media doesn't have time for stuff like that. They need to spend all their time defending themselves. Because that's what matters to Americans.
Europe is full of regret.
55% of Europeans want to halt or curb immigration from Muslim majority countries
The "keep 'em coming" numbers are unbelievably low.
In my hometown we had a high profile elected official who was at war with the newspapers - the two locals and the bigger one from the city up north. He made comments like: "If the papers get things half right, it's a miracle," "I'm happy to pit my credibility against the newspapers any day of the week."
He retired after five terms as the biggest vote-getter in the history of the county.
Trump must keep the heat on the mediaswine. Everybody expects the media to attack a Republican President, especially Trump. Few expected Trump to attack the media after the election. They are partisan liars and he must call them out at every opportunity. This particular call-out was not particularly artful, but his team will get better. Conservative blogs will help, if Trump's folks pay attention. He needs a couple of full timers on it coupled with a website for citizens to report media lies.
But but...The Russian "hacking" gave Hillary millions of votes more than it gave to Trump?
"Fort Hood and Orlando are starters."
9/11? Worst mass murder in US history, 2600 dead, a hundred billion dollar hit to the economy, iconic building destroyed, crime committed by a pack of Muslims here on visas, 189 killed in the pentagon attack, 44 people killed on flight 93.
I think the topic was "under reported."
In my hometown we had a high profile elected official who was at war with the newspapers -
“Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them.
In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.”
— Michael Crichton
The Russians hacked the Falcons.
"But but...The Russian "hacking" gave Hillary millions of votes more than it gave to Trump?"
-- Even they bothered to understand how the EC works, I guess. Shame Clinton didn't.
Cook said quoting Hagar: '"This observation may be a reflection of my own bias, but it is certainly true that Muslims produce more mass murderers than white Americans...." How do you know this to be true?'
My God, Cook. Do you live in a cocoon? Muslims engage in murderous acts worldwide almost daily, many of them mass murders. Do white Americans?
From thereligionofpeace.com. Note that these documented attacks usually involve multiple victims. One might think such numbers would interest American mediaswine, but they don't fit their narrative or, apparently, yours.
Jihad Report
January, 2017
Attacks 201
Killed 1412
Injured 1679
Suicide Blasts 40
Countries 30
Robert Cook said...
"This observation may be a reflection of my own bias, but it is certainly true that Muslims produce more mass murderers than white Americans...."
How do you know this to be true?"
Why take a chance? Besides it isn't as if we have a shortage of terrorists and need to import more to keep the FBI busy. There are fifty seven Islamic nations. Let the other fifty take care of their brethren first.
"My God, Cook. Do you live in a cocoon? Muslims engage in murderous acts worldwide almost daily, many of them mass murders. Do white Americans?"
If we count our military...yes.
"My God, Cook. Do you live in a cocoon? Muslims engage in murderous acts worldwide almost daily, many of them mass murders. Do white Americans?"
If we count our military...yes.
Cookie is a firm believer in Orwell's rule.
"There is no need for war. There is always surrender."
If we count our military...yes.
When the military kills people it is not murder, as long as they are following the rules of combat.
But the ability to analyze moral questions and make distinctions between legal and illegal behavior is lost to the left. It's all about power to them.
When truth ceases to be God, truth becomes power.
Cook: "If we count our military, yes."
Your penchant for moral equivalence is truly mind-boggling.
The Russians hacked the Falcons.
The now legendary Deep Plunger has graduated from overflowing Water Closets at the DNC to sport clubs. Positive or negative Progress?
It's a recently conceived meme that may be viable with adjusted polling, and liberal doses of JournoLism; but, I would substitute dead Soviets for Russians to increase its emotional appeal.
The list, which the story says was prepared by the White House, identfies the perpetrators of the terrorist acts (with two exceptions) as "US person[s]", without giving their names. In almost all cases, if the names of the perpetrators had been provided, that would have supported the impression that the terrorist acts were carried out by Muslims. I would think it was in the interest of the White House to underscore Muslim involvement in these crimes. Why do you think the White House didn't list the names?
"When the military kills people it is not murder, as long as they are following the rules of combat."
Oh, it certainly is...always. However, sometimes it is necessary murder, murder for self-defense.
When innocents are killed in war, "collateral damage," as it is obfuscatingly called, there is no self-defense justification. Given that no wars we have started in the past 15 years were necessary for national self-defense, we have simply engaged in a decade and a half of mass murder.
Does the Times take classes on deliberately missing the point?
Yes, the Pulse attack was widely covered.
But not as Islamist terrorism.
Just as some generic, random "I cannot imagine why they'd want to attack gay people, let's talk about how bad the Right is in gay stuff!" way.
Trump's point is consistent, unending downplaying of the avowed ideological motive for such attacks.
And while I think he's a dumbass, he is completely right, in my experience.
(Also re. Mr. Cook above, "accidentally killing people you weren't trying to" is usually manslaughter, not murder.
In a military context, nobody serious classes it as murder.
At least admit you.mre pushing for redefinition, son.'to just assert it as Obviously True.)
"Cook: "If we count our military, yes.""
"Your penchant for moral equivalence is truly mind-boggling."
Trump obviously counts the military in that "what do you think, we're so innocent?" comment to O'Reilly. Trump drew a moral equivalence between Russia and the US. But when he does it, it's OK?
Sigivald:
Though we try to clean it up and bestow it with honorifics, war is nothing but sustained mass murder.
Always and ever.
Again, occasionally--very rarely--it is necessary murder, when we must defend our lives and existence. Given how rarely any wars we have engaged in in our nation's history actually were in defense of our lives and existence, we cannot claim such high-minded justifications for our appalling history of violence.
"Trump drew a moral equivalence between Russia and the US. But when he does it, it's OK?"
It's not a matter of whether it's "okay" or "not okay." In this case, the Trump is telling a blunt truth.
Robert Cook said...
"When the military kills people it is not murder, as long as they are following the rules of combat."
Oh, it certainly is...always. However, sometimes it is necessary murder, murder for self-defense.
For God's sake, Robert Cook, you are ignorant.
Murder is not the same as killing a human being, it is the unlawful killing of a human being.
No one murders a person in self defense.
Quoting mysefl:
But the ability to analyze moral questions and make distinctions between legal and illegal behavior is lost to the left.
It's not as though people haven't been studying questions like murder versus killing for millennia.
Cookie, when our military takes to competing to see who can build the tallest pyramid with skulls from citizens of the cities they have conquered, let me know.
It's not as though people haven't been studying questions like murder versus killing for millennia.
In the Bible, Thou shalt not kill is properly translated Thou shalt not murder. Using the death penalty for a serial or other heinous murderer is not murder. Interesting, though, that the left wants to abolish the death penalty but think that murdering unborn babies is acceptable.
"Murder is not the same as killing a human being, it is the unlawful killing of a human being."
You're playing semantic games.
Blogger Robert Cook said...
"Murder is not the same as killing a human being, it is the unlawful killing of a human being."
You're playing semantic games.
Look up the meaning of the word, Robert Cook. If you insist on defining words so that they mean whatever you want them to mean, you are mad.
If you ignore that WWII dustup, the Germans are an industrious and peaceable people,. I think more WWII movies should emphasize that fact. They should present Nazis in a more positive light. Say what you want, these were people who knew how to dress with flair and brio. It's just unfair to constantly portray Nazis in the worst possible light, like they were Republicans or oil executives. They should depict Nazis with the same sympathy and balance that they depict Islamic terrorists in those rare movies that are made about Islamic terrorists.
"Trump drew a moral equivalence between Russia and the US. But when he does it, it's OK?"
"It's not a matter of whether it's "okay" or "not okay." In this case, the Trump is telling a blunt truth."
Well, in the case of Trump, he comes off as a huge hypocrite. His drawing of a moral equivalence between Russia and the US certainly doesn't fit his narrative of putting "America First". I doubt the Trumpists here will be bothered by it though.
Lewis, if you prefer to distinguish "killing" from "murder" so as to shield yourself from the horror of what happens in war--all wars--and, in particular, what we have done in our wars, most of them absolutely unnecessary, empty of any self-defense rationale, but carried out for plunder and/or assertion of our geopolitical dominance...who am I to try to argue you into facing the truth?
"When the military kills people it is not murder, as long as they are following the rules of combat."
Oh, it certainly is...always. However, sometimes it is necessary murder, murder for self-defense.
Obviously, you are not a Hebrew or Aramaic scholar.
Tye cCommandment does not say "Thou shall not kill."
It says, "Thou shall not murder."
Terrie,
Not sure what moral equivalence has to do with putting America first. America should be first whether or not another country is "morally equivalent."
Robert Cook said...
Lewis, if you prefer to distinguish "killing" from "murder" so as to shield yourself from the horror of what happens in war--all wars--and, in particular, what we have done in our wars, most of them absolutely unnecessary, empty of any self-defense rationale, but carried out for plunder and/or assertion of our geopolitical dominance...who am I to try to argue you into facing the truth?
2/7/17, 3:07 PM
You are not talking about the truth, Robert Cook. That's why you have a hard time defending your ideas. I began with a standard definition of a word. You begin with a fantasy definition.
""Trump drew a moral equivalence between Russia and the US. But when he does it, it's OK?"
It's not a matter of whether it's "okay" or "not okay." In this case, the Trump is telling a blunt truth."
It is not a blunt truth that we are on a par with Putin's Russia. It's inane to compare us.
Do we do awful things? Of course. But that comparison is absurd.
Putin is an authoritarian thug. It'd be nice if our president could acknowledge that that's not worthy of admiration.
Robert Cook is not misinformed, he is malignant. He is a hateful coward who wishes himself a master and we, his slaves.
He actively hates each and every one of us. Make no mistake about that.
CNN has Kellyann on again, but it is just to give her a stern Star Chamber lecture about DJT accusing them of not covering many of the Terrorist attacks strongly, " ...because they have an agenda."
Their heads are exploding at CNN. The anger is so strong that the Secret Service needs more special agents to closely watch all CNN personnel at large in the White House.The have murder in their eyes.
Final score: Kellyann 99, CNN 1.
"I began with a standard definition of a word."
Definitions do not come from on high; they are of our devising.
To read the foreign press is to discover news of all sorts of things that are never reported on here -- even when it happens here.
Trump cannot draw a comparison between the US and Russia without denigrating this country. You Trumpists give Trump a pass for what you would've ripped Obama apart for. Trump's many Executive orders is another case of hypocrisy. Obama was accused of exceeding the limits of Executive power, yet Trumpists think when Trump does it, he is just being a strong President. The hypocrisy of Trumpism is mindboggling.
"It is not a blunt truth that we are on a par with Putin's Russia. It's inane to compare us."
Well, we're not really comparable quantitatively; we have killed more people than Putin's Russia.
And Birkel is just a big mouth jerk.
Putin's killing of his personal enemies is illegal, under Russian law. That's why he hides it and insists that he had nothing to do with the murders.
If you believe that all intentional killing is murder, you lose the ability to criticize Putin unless you also criticize a soldier who kills a terrorist.
Robert Cook said...
"I began with a standard definition of a word."
Definitions do not come from on high; they are of our devising."
There is you and there is me but there is no we here Kemosabe. Come on Bob, you are better at argument than that especially weak remark.
I probably hate Birkel more than Cook does.
The genocide of Christians in the Middle East and parts of Africa are one of those things largely ignored by the U.S. mainstream media. And much of the dealings of ISIS in other countries.
For example, has anyone seen it reported in NYT or WashPost or CNN or MSNBC how ISIS is now giving knives and guns to young pre-teen boys to go and slowly and methodically cut people's heads off and shoot others -- and all captured on video? Has anyone seen that reported?
" . . . we have killed more people than Putin's Russia."
If you really think that you have murdered people, Robert Cook. You should turn yourself in to the police.
Seriously, if I believed that I lived in a country that routinely murdered people, I would move to another country. It's not like you are a prisoner here, Robert Cook. Move to Switzerland, or Canada, or some country that you believe is not full of murderers and led by murderers.
Weird that the LA Times, Fusion and 538 all published Trump's same lie last year.
Why is the American media mostly ignoring two other terror attacks that happened this month?
Fusion (March 2016)
http://fusion.net/story/283391/why-is-the-american-media-mostly-ignoring-two-other-terror-attacks-that-happened-this-month/
Why you probably didn't hear everyone talking about these major terror attacks
Los Angeles Times (March 2016)
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-terrorist-attacks-worldwide-20160329-snap-htmlstory.html
Which Countries’ Terrorist Attacks Are Ignored By The U.S. Media?
FiveThirtyEight (July 2016)
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/which-countries-terrorist-attacks-are-ignored-by-the-u-s-media/
Sigivald said...
Trump's point is consistent, unending downplaying of the avowed ideological motive for such attacks.
Yup.
By the way, manslaughter -- which is something different from murder -- is also proscribed by the Fifth Commandment.
"I probably hate Birkel more than Cook does."
I don't hate Birkel, or anyone here with whom I disagree. I think Birkel is overemotional and somewhat silly. Some here are more substantive, even if I disagree with them, and there are a few as silly as Birkel.
You're a good man Cook, as for me, I can't stand Birkel.
Meanwhile, I can give you sixty million reasons why Trump has a point when it comes to the killing of the innocent in this country.
Blogger Gusty Winds said...
Sigivald said...
Trump's point is consistent, unending downplaying of the avowed ideological motive for such attacks.
Yup.
This is why Lynch did not want to release the transcripts of Mateen's call to 911 from the Pulse nightclub. All he did was repeat, again and again, that his murder spree was revenge for the US bombings of ISIS in Syria. The 911 operator tried to get other info from him, but he wouldn't budge from his talking points about Syria and Islam.
He never mentioned gays, but the MSM and especially Lefty news sources said it was an "anti-gay attack by a homophobe."
Those people are frikkin' nuts.
Again, occasionally--very rarely--it is necessary murder, when we must defend our lives and existence
Murder and war are the same like bananas and oranges are the same. Yes, they're both fruit, but they're not the same thing. At all.
Are murder and war both types of killing? Yes. Are they both murder? Absolutely, unequivocally, no. You are widening a definition of a word to fit a pre-conceived narrative.
You're playing semantic games.
No, Bob, you are.
Lewis, if you prefer to distinguish "killing" from "murder" so as to shield yourself from the horror of what happens in war--all wars--and, in particular, what we have done in our wars, most of them absolutely unnecessary, empty of any self-defense rationale, but carried out for plunder and/or assertion of our geopolitical dominance...who am I to try to argue you into facing the truth?
This is all nice prose, but none of it changes the fact that murder and war are two separate concepts. Regardless of the horror that goes on. A word has a meaning, and the only reason to broaden that meaning is to change it to mean something else.
That's what this little tiff is all about.
Definitions do not come from on high; they are of our devising.
Yes. One time. If it goes beyond that, then the meaning changes. The word no longer means what it once meant.
Trump cannot draw a comparison between the US and Russia without denigrating this country. You Trumpists give Trump a pass for what you would've ripped Obama apart for. Trump's many Executive orders is another case of hypocrisy. Obama was accused of exceeding the limits of Executive power, yet Trumpists think when Trump does it, he is just being a strong President. The hypocrisy of Trumpism is mindboggling.
If it helps, Terrie, I voted for Trump. I think everything he's done so far, as far as things accomplished, is to my liking. And I think he's full of shite when it comes the Russian thing. I have no idea why he is sidling up to Putin - Putin is a former KGB head, who has directly poisoned people who he has considered a threat.
That said - because we're all not harping on Trump for this doesn't mean there aren't a lot of other "Trumpists" who think as I do. This particular thread wasn't predicated on Trump's relationship with Putin, so I don't know why you're even harping on it.
Cook: ...we cannot claim such high-minded justifications for our appalling history of violence.
May as well do, Cookie, everybody else does. It's not like anyone's going to get any reward from any of the other murderous tribe on the planet for self-flagellation.
If it's "Teh Hyocracy!" that's chapping your ass, well, that's one area where the USA is definitely not #1. Sorry to say we're pretty mediocre, in both local and global leagues, when it comes to self-serving thin-skinned sanctimonious hypocrisy.
"This is all nice prose, but none of it changes the fact that murder and war are two separate concepts."
I'm not talking about "concepts," but about the reality of violently killing other human beings. Whether we can justify it as self-defense or by some other means, (but, aside from self-defense, what other justification is valid?), but it is still the murder of a human being.
And, you all ignore that I was willing to grant Lewis his point for argument's sake, but pointed out that the vast majority of wars we've joined or started have been unnecessary, and therefore cannot be justified as "legal killing." Ergo, even by your standards, it's mass murder.
"If it helps, Terrie, I voted for Trump. I think everything he's done so far, as far as things accomplished, is to my liking. And I think he's full of shite when it comes the Russian thing. I have no idea why he is sidling up to Putin - Putin is a former KGB head, who has directly poisoned people who he has considered a threat."
So you don't ask yourself why Trump acts like Putin's poodle? No curiosity? Ask yourself this. What does Trump owe Putin? What does Putin have on Trump? Are you in favor of investigating the Putin Trump connection? Or do you still think there is no connection, even after Trump's odd behavior regarding Putin? It's time you Trumpists got your heads out of Trump's posterior and started asking some questions and demanding answers. Start with his taxes.
The "hardcore lefties" hate Hillary Clinton, rightly seeing her as simply another apparatchik for the deep state.
It's amusing Cook seems to think the left is against the state, or at least pretends to so he can disavow the costs of his preferred policies.
"It's amusing Cook seems to think the left is against the state, or at least pretends to so he can disavow the costs of his preferred policies."
It's amusing--and so typically wrong-headed--that you seem to equate Democrats with "hardcore lefties."
"So you don't ask yourself why Trump acts like Putin's poodle? No curiosity? Ask yourself this. What does Trump owe Putin? What does Putin have on Trump?"
It's certainly possible Putin may have something on Trump, but then, pretty much everything there is to be had on him is known to us, I'd think. Given that our spy services have greater surveillance access to all of us than do Russia's spy services, it stands to reason our spooks know whatever Trump may have to hide.
I think it's more likely that Trump sees no good reason to continue the Obama administration's pointless bellicosity toward Russia, a bellicosity Hillary would have ramped up. I'm no fan of Trump--to say the least--but I don't see a good reason for it either, as it puts us at greater peril of finding ourselves in a world war, (even if it's in the form of a new cold war).
It's amusing--and so typically wrong-headed--that you seem to equate Democrats with "hardcore lefties."
Not true, there are a few decent people among Democrats. They just have no institutional power and thus no influence.
Lewis, if you prefer to distinguish "killing" from "murder" so as to shield yourself from the horror of what happens in war--all wars--and, in particular, what we have done in our wars, most of them absolutely unnecessary, empty of any self-defense rationale, but carried out for plunder and/or assertion of our geopolitical dominance...who am I to try to argue you into facing the truth?
Cookie, contrary to your idealized notions of peaceable humanity, there will always be geopolitical dominance by one or more countries. If you'd rather it was Iran than the USA, then you are not the reasonably intelligent man I think you are.
There is no truer Scotsman than Robert Cook.
Up against the wall, comrades. We have not been re-educated well enough and must be sacrificed for the greater good.
The essence of self-defense or defense of another is not to kill, but rather is to use reasonable if deadly force to protect human life, personal integrity and/or fundamental liberty. That intent to protect and preserve life, rather a specific desire and purpose to take life, is what separates legitimate defense from wrongful homicide.
If one goes beyond the force necessary to protect, or if one has the intent to kill and is using defense merely as a pretext, that would be a wrongful act.
Self-defense of your person and others threatened by an imminent threat up to and including abortion.
Committing abortion for elective causes, including: wealth, pleasure, leisure, convenience, democratic leverage, social justice, political progress, is both illegal (outside of the twilight zone) and immoral. The rite of aborting captive, wholly innocent human lives is an unprecedented, and, unfortunately, progressive condition in modern societies, which can only ultimately be resolved through education reform, moral rehabilitation, closing abortion chambers, and withdrawing popular consent from the practice.
No, Mark.
One can, in most states, use deadly force in a home invader regardless of motive. Criminals are aware.
Cook: If you prefer to distinguish "killing" from "murder" so as to shield yourself from the horror of what happens in war--all wars--and, in particular, what we have done in our wars, most of them absolutely unnecessary, empty of any self-defense rationale, but carried out for plunder and/or assertion of our geopolitical dominance...who am I to try to argue you into facing the truth?
Who's shielding whom from what here, O Anguished Moralist?
The comfy terrestrial perch you sit upon was won for you by men engaging successfully in conquest - aka plunder and/or assertion of geopolitical dominance. Centuries of by-god unapologetic bloody conquest, not self-defense by any stretch of the imagination. And yet here you are.
Perhaps you pretend not to understand the commonplace distinction between two commonplace words, or pretend to yourself that those who do understand the distinction must think history is all lollipops and unicorns, because you'd prefer to distract yourself from having to recognize that you are the fat, happy, beneficiary of men to whom you, o pharisee, like to consider yourself morally superior?
It's the centenary of WWI. It is fitting and sweet to observe that nearly all wars involve pointless slaughter to achieve unworthy goals. In this context, it is useful to mention all these Marxist, third world struggles of national liberation. When you talk about pointless slaughter mention the North Koreans who gave their lives to bring about the Kim dynasty and the Vietnamese and their extraordinary sacrifices to establish a unified form of crony capitalism in their land. How about the Cubans who died in order that Mengitsu could work his magic in Ethiopia? The United States has been involved in some dumb wars, but I can point to many dumber, and to some countries and causes whose only purpose was dumb wars. Our dumb wars are usually subordinate to making money and gaining land and were relatively purposeful......... I wish women wouldn't menstruate. It puts them in a foul mood. I wish men wouldn't get into wars. In combat situations, their moods are even worse than those of menstruating women. But menstruating women and warring men figure to be a part of life on earth for the foreseeable future. Pity.
Putin is a bad guy.
The reason we oppose and demonize Putin, but not the Chinese dictator, Xi Jinping, is because Putin is a threat to parts of Europe and we are dedicated to the EU as a strategic partner. At least so far.
Trump should call Putin a killer and murderer and lots of other things so he can get Putin in to help him with Iran sanctions. That would be the best way to work with someone who could help in several spots in the world. I know that alienating people that I will be doing future business with always works for me.
Pacwest,
Trump wants good relations with Israel. Russia and Iran are allies. Iran says Israel has no right to exist. Now tell me how being Putin's poodle will help US/ Israel relations.
Y'all are making this too hard. In order to MAGA we have to not only have a balanced budget but only enough debt to finance a rainy day fund. Similar to most household planning. Which means balanced budgets and enough remaining to pay off the with almost no taxes, to generate the growth that generates tax revenues to pay for the 10% of government that remains, perhaps just customs duties the way the country started. And after three hundred years of progress technical and smarts, 10% is generous. Much more than when the country began. He, We, have to be friends with Russia (and China) because neither of wants to continue the current practice. Take 50% of taxes collected put it in a big pile and set in on fire. And for that matter we have to return all the other life challenges to the people. Just like they were in the late 1700s. Where most people were just as happy as they are today. Just much more self-sufficient, granted their emergency safety net was family and neighbors, and poor house. Wo you were very careful about who you offended, and were very grateful for any job you had. Bob Cratchit included. And you always had six months of family expenses hidden under your mattress. The Horror The Horror. DO without big government, or an enemy that ate all your savings for your old age? So we're overdue for big changes and most of those who want better for their children than a bigger dole check will walk through fire to get there. And there's nothing the stupid party, the party of stupid bullies can do to buy their vote. They want out of the stench of the swamp and clutches of the swamp things. See y'all in 2018. Be Next up "we divorce thee, pompous parts of California, and others, no federal funds for you or trade with those who you abuse, make it on your own)
Poodle? It's pretty hard to have a conversation with someone who would say something that obtuse. Wanna reset?
No. Putin's poodle. Putin's puppet, etc. etc. etc. No need for a conversation. I just wanted to counter your reasoning in your 7:18 comment.
Not much of a counter. Your opinion on what relationship President Trump should have with Putin? Not sure from your response what that would be. I'm always willing to check my premises.
Wrong blog, Theresa.
"you seem to equate Democrats with "hardcore lefties."
No, I equate Venezuela with "hardcore lefties."
Democrats are working on it.
So you don't ask yourself why Trump acts like Putin's poodle? No curiosity? Ask yourself this. What does Trump owe Putin?
Mental illness creeps up on you like a thief in the night.
There is wrong, dead wrong and batshit crazy.
Terrie, I am starting to be concerned about you,
Russia has < 100 political prisoner. China has > 1400 political prisoners.
Russia and Iran are allies.
Terrie, words mean things. Are you saying that if Iran is attacked or invaded, Russia has a treaty obligation to defend Iran? Or if Russia is attack or invaded, Iran has a treaty obligation to defend Russia?
What do you think "allies" or "alliance" means? Russia and Iran are historic, one might say Eternal enemies. The fact that they are doing the old Enemy of My Enemy thing is dressing on the salad. My dear, they are using each other like Grindr dates.
Here's the right way to do it, Theresa.
Make a difference®!
Here's the right way to do it, Theresa.
Make a difference®!
Jon, that's the worst case of TDS I've seen! Or heard.
This is her art:
OOh I have lobster hands
AOSHQ rule # 1.
Never stick your dick into crazy.
More craziness like this!
More craziness like this!
In Dearbornistan, too. Amazing he wasn't shot. He should have been. As Tuco would say, If you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
Bow tie daddy...
don't you blow yer top
Wow, the left still believe the Russians stole the election.
The biggest terror attack apparently turned half of the country"s brains into silly putty.
"The biggest terror attack apparently turned half of the country"s brains into silly putty."
Yes, the half that thought attacking Iraq was a good idea or a necessary action.
"Putin is a bad guy.
The reason we oppose and demonize Putin, but not the Chinese dictator, Xi Jinping, is because Putin is a threat to parts of Europe...."
What threat does Putin pose to parts of Europe?
The reason we're demonizing Putin/Russia is simply because we need a greater "existential threat" than just the Islamic terrorists--a savage, motley cohort, but no existential threat to America, and one that will eventually dry up--to justify the annual gargantuan and always growing budget of the War Department and to guarantee continuing profits to the arms merchants.
"The comfy terrestrial perch you sit upon was won for you by men engaging successfully in conquest - aka plunder and/or assertion of geopolitical dominance. Centuries of by-god unapologetic bloody conquest, not self-defense by any stretch of the imagination. And yet here you are."
Boy Howdy! I'm convinced! Hail to the bloody plunderers and rapists and slaughterers of mankind for bringing the worldly comforts of the 21st Century to me! Mine eyes have been opened! Bring on the nuclear weapons and lets turn the world into a radioactive slag heap to make damned sure we are the ones left fighting each other over the scraps that remain, and not them!
Boy Howdy! I'm convinced! Hail to the bloody plunderers and rapists and slaughterers of mankind for bringing the worldly comforts of the 21st Century to me! Mine eyes have been opened! Bring on the nuclear weapons and lets turn the world into a radioactive slag heap to make damned sure we are the ones left fighting each other over the scraps that remain, and not them!
This is the point (it always comes sooner or later for you on any given thread, Robert) where you run up against the limits of your ideology, flip into the protective cognitive blank-out, and start sloganeering.
You do seem better able to (sort of) stay on point and coherent when it comes to single, restricted points, e.g. Putin and Europe, but you eventually go off the rails there, too.
Well, Angel-Dyne, it all really comes down to what I stated originally: war is murder.
Cook: Well, Angel-Dyne, it all really comes down to what I stated originally: war is murder.
Yeah, I know - you think you're making some profound truth about the nature of war that your benighted moral inferiors here just aren't getting. But you aren't. You're just posturing.
No, I'm just stating something that only became a part of the continuing conversation because other commenters here take issue with it. I don't think it's a "profound" truth, but a pretty self-apparent one.
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