Watch live now, here.
Lindsey Graham and Tim Scott are also taking this position.
UPDATE: Haley is giving recognition to the different "viewpoints" of the meaning of the flag, but at the state house, "It's time to move the flag from the capitol grounds." Huge applause. "Some people will see this as a sad moment... but this flag, while an integral part of our past, does not belong in our future.... By removing a symbol that divides us, we can move forward in harmony." She speaks of honoring the "9 souls... who are in Heaven." She stresses that it's South Carolina's decision, and that many people outside of the state have misunderstood what the flag means. It doesn't mean hate, she assures us, but it does cause "pain to so many," and that is the reason for banishing it from the state house grounds — though of course, as she mentions, individuals remain free to display the flag themselves.
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257 comments:
1 – 200 of 257 Newer› Newest»No time to let people grieve there are groups to divide, political points to be scored and papers to sell!
That flag of a badly defeated State had its extra added 150 years of fame in South Carolina. It's past time to go.
Not good enough. I demand sack cloth, ashes, wailing and walking from the capitol to the church on their knees.
Oh and reparations.
Can't forget reparations....
whitey...
traditionalguy: "That flag of a badly defeated State had its extra added 150 years of fame in South Carolina. It's past time to go."
I am unaware of many (any?) "goodly" defeated States.
Just sayin'.
Wow, allowing the gov of the state to make the call and provide leadership.
Almost as if that is how it is supposed to work.
-XC
PS - Female gov. of color. Republican in the south. Meme buster.
Good.
Say, if I say what you want, will I have said say?
So, after they take down the flag can we please fix the budget, illegal immigration and government intrusion in health insurance?
O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears
May God bless and keep the good people of South Carolina.
JAORE said...
No time to let people grieve there are groups to divide, political points to be scored and papers to sell!
On average, 18 black people are murdered each day in the US.
Like I said, I doubt the current generation gives a crap about the old flag. Time to move on. Traditions change. Roof didn't do what he did, nor was he emboldened to hate by the flag. It was his hate and prejudice that led him to hold it dearly, using it as a symbol for his hatred.
I'm sure northerners will not give up on the southerners are racists meme once the flags go. Oddly, Boston may be one of the most racist cities I've ever lived near.
One other note. A significant portion of southerners are northern transplants, myself included. Our ties to the confederacy are only historical rather than spiritual.
On average, 18 black people are murdered each day in the US.
The vast majority by other Black people...
“We write to support the six members who offered the resolution to remove national flags from the ASUCI lobby,” the letter reads. “The university ought to respect their political position and meet its obligation to protect and promote their safety. The resolution recognized that nationalism, including U.S. nationalism, often contributes to racism and xenophobia[.]”
“This is a more or less uncontroversial scholarly point, and in practice the resolution has drawn admiration nationally from much of the academic community,”
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1t1ZhPZN2ohzgARuXwQUCwbB3YXNPgXGZQMI8heUYZnQ/viewform
Of course this will never happen to the US flag.
though of course, as she mentions, individuals remain free to display the flag themselves.
..for now...
Oddly, Boston may be one of the most racist cities I've ever lived near
Correct, Titus notwithstanding.
Start the stopwatch on the next demand.
Anyone think it will be longer than 72 hours?
Meade: "May God bless and keep the good people of South Carolina"
But not before about a half hour ago?
Nikki is trying to do the right thing, without having to say the right thing. Sound politics, given her situation.
Good riddance to the treason flag.
Now, if we can only get the hammer and sickle removed from the state flags in Madison and Montpelier, we'll be getting somewhere.
Question for everybody: if there had been no Confederate battle flag flying over the memorial on the grounds of the South Carolina state capitol, would Dylann Roof have been stopped from internalizing his racist views and would he therefore not have committed the murders?
Politicians are all too fond of writing bills or taking symbolic actions after a tragedy that no sane person believes would have prevented or even alleviated the effects of that tragedy. I don't think removing the Confederate battle flag will do any harm, it's a symbolic action after all, but who thinks those 9 lives would have been spared had the flag not been flying?
Not only that, let's make even owning a Confederate flag illegal. Punishable by death. I know people in the East Village who would be on board with that.
Good riddance to the treason flag.
That's how I have always felt about the Vermont Republic flag.
Good resolution. I'm with Meade. Can we find something else to bitch about now?
Basically, as best I can figure out, Dylann Storm Roof was lonely because he couldn't find any kindred spirits in real life. Just on line, and they were probably mostly FBI anyway. He wanted to scare some up.
Nikki is trying to do the right thing, without having to say the right thing. Sound politics, given her situation.
Walker just tweeted that he now supports Haley's decision. Profiles in courage.
Can we find something else to bitch about now?
Only if it is about straight, White, men. Preferably conservative straight White men.
Can we now go back to complaining about mansprading, mainsplaining and Gamergate?
lgv,
"Boston may be one of the most racist cities I've ever lived near."
I'm a fellow transplanted northerner, I lived in or around Boston for 11 years, and I couldn't agree more.
I came to the South with a lot of regional prejudice, and I've been greatly and pleasantly surprised at how much more day-to-day, small-scale friendliness there is between blacks and whites in the large Southern city I now call home. Not saying it's perfect by any means, but it's better than I expected, and a lot better than what I left.
"Walker just tweeted that he now supports Haley's decision. Profiles in courage."
I don't hang on Walker's every word like you do, but didn't he say it was an SC decision?
May God bless and keep Drago. Even before about a half ago. Even the good people who are not named Drago.
We lose our freedoms and surrender our culture in dribs and drabs.
I don't hang on Walker's every word like you do, but didn't he say it was an SC decision?
Why he didn't he just give his personal opinion on the flag [that he now holds] on Friday when asked about it?
I agree with Garage on this one. Walker could have said all that he said but added: In my personal opinion I think the flag should go.
But he didn't. He was a political pussy. Lost my interest in him. It appears he is on the inside what he looks like on the outside.
Why he didn't he just give his personal opinion on the flag [that he now holds] on Friday when asked about it?
Maybe he thought it best not to hector them into it. A position a lot of people hold. That only South Carolina can do this in any meaningful way.
So the governor says the flag doesn't mean what those who want it removed means but she's going to have it removed anyway because those who want it removed get to decide what it means.
Interesting intersection of semiotics and political activism. Time for Ole Miss to change its nickname and mascot.
It will be fun to watch to the activists keep pushing for this stuff. I'll be impressed when they get the Jefferson Memorial razed.
May all our country's leaders be men and women dedicated to the healing of our nation's wounded, lost, and dispossessed — guided by law, justice, and love.
New England as a whole is racist. That's why many blacks don't live there. By keeping the name New England they display their loyalty to the crown. They are traitors to this country.
"May all our country's leaders be men and women dedicated to the healing of our nation's wounded, lost, and dispossessed — guided by law, justice, and love."
It would be nice to have one leader a century like this.
Progress is a bitch.
Oddly, Boston may be one of the most racist cities I've ever lived near.
More a vestige of the past, but one of the reasons I thought outsiders should butt out of SC decision.
http://www.usnews.com/news/national/articles/2008/04/04/a-flag-a-busing-fight-and-a-famous-photograph
She was smart to not stand alone at the podium. She needs all representatives behind her. Both parties.
I've been to the south, I've spent a lot of time there, and they are a backwards lot. You can't educate them, as they are all inbred twice.
The best thing to do is remove their tools.
Same with the 10 commandments or religious paraphernalia on capitol grounds. Get rid of that shit, and beat the fuck out of anyone who wants different.
What America needs now is some clickbait along the lines of: The Seven Best Confederate Battle Flag Tattoos You'll Ever See!
You can't educate them, as they are all inbred twice.
Right, they shouldn't even be allowed to vote.
This kind of bigotry is why people assume that SC will have to be forced to do it and can't be convinced to do it. In fact, any belief that SC should be convinced to do it is seen as just more racist twaddle.
"Walker just tweeted that he now supports Haley's decision. Profiles in courage."
Looks like he beat Obama and Clinton to the tweet. Do they hate blacks that much?
If I were a black person in South Carolina today I think I'd be scared shitless, because look how easily you can move a political position forward at the low, low cost of only 9, easily obtainable martyrs.
Gun control stalling out on you? Just find another Dylann Roof and another church and, bingo, you're back in business. Because, as always, it's the "larger conversation" that matters.
Jeb was a head of Walker and Haley, so he wins.
States had lost battles and some were occupied, but from Atlanta south the states were Badly Defeated with houses burned, all food stolen, wagons, livestock and all personal property. Taken especially along the South Carolina coast to Charleston and North there with no effective Confederate opposition as Sherman's Army came through and the slaves followed it on down the road.
"I agree with Garage on this one. Walker could have said all that he said but added: In my personal opinion I think the flag should go.
But he didn't. He was a political pussy."
Maybe because he isn't the governor of SC? I'm just spitballin'.
The notion that everything is all about Walker is truly bizarre.
Nobody cares who was first to call for the flag removal. I care very much that Walker thought it appropriate to wait until the bodies were at least cool before jumping on the flag thing, and secondly that his initial instinct is to let state matters be resolved by state officials.
That tells me a lot about both his simple human decency and his understanding of subsidiarity in government. Good things in both cases.
They are all pussies. Why single out Walker?
"On average, 18 black people are murdered each day in the US."
My comment that elicited this response was about time to grieve instead of politicizing a tragedy. But some folks just can not be decent. So here goes:
And if the flag were removed in South Carolina how low would that number drop?
The stupid, it burns.
Because Walker is the presumptive GOP nominee and he can't be trusted to be POTUS. He had a moral obligation to give a strong opinion on Friday and he didn't. He showed weak moral character and doesn't deserve the presidency.
THIS JUST IN: Democrats Announce Goalpost Relocation
"Oh and reparations.
Can't forget reparations....
whitey..."
I am for an offer of reparations to all who are willing to go back to Africa and stay, No coming back, though.
I agree that the flag was inappropriate on the Capitol grounds. Let it fly over a memorial to Confederate dead.
"He showed weak moral character and doesn't deserve the presidency."
As opposed to Hillary who has taken strong positions.
Whatever Alex. Had he spoken out Friday in just the words you wished, you would have some other disqualification.
"Question for everybody: if there had been no Confederate battle flag flying over the memorial on the grounds of the South Carolina state capitol, would Dylann Roof have been stopped from internalizing his racist views and would he therefore not have committed the murders?"
Absolutely not--but what got this all going was the fact that other flags went to half mast and when someone noticed the Confederate flag in Columbia did not, it went viral and they decided now was as good a time as any to pressure the state into removing it. I think removing it from state property (except museums) is the right move, but agree that it's SC's to make, and that of course it's merely symbolic and has nothing to do with the recent shooting.
Alex,
He gave two strong opinions.
1. People shouldn't exploit dead bodies for political causes.
2. State matters should be handled by state officials, not outside officials.
Just because he couched those two very strong opinions in low-key midwest nice language doesn't diminish the strength of the opinions.
It's not his obligation to adhere to your opinions for you. He's only obligated to adhere to his own opinions.
"I'm sure northerners will not give up on the southerners are racists meme once the flags go. Oddly, Boston may be one of the most racist cities I've ever lived near."
This northerner can attest that (1) Boston is far more racist than any other big city I'm aware of, and they never get called out on it so that only makes them worse; (2) I'm sure those that unjustly stereotype southerners won't be satisfied, any more than any white bigot will ever be satisfied that blacks can be decent people either; and (3) to the extent we're going to have a "national conversation" it will resemble a "national lecture" of smug leftists telling everyone else what they should to, namely to change their right wing ways.
A scene of the Confederate flag flying in South Carolina and what it means in history.
trumpetdaddy - some things are so clear cut morally speaking that you have to speak out. Walker won't get away with that weasley excuse during a POTUS debate against Hillary.
PS - Female gov. of color. Republican in the south. Meme buster.
And what propelled her to the governorship? A simple request that the Legislature actually PRINT OUT WHO VOTED FOR WHAT BILL.
Yes, my state did not do that. And they fought hard to NOT do that.
The Legislature, as usual, hates the Governor.
I'm sure northerners will not give up on the southerners are racists meme once the flags go. Oddly, Boston may be one of the most racist cities I've ever lived near.
Hell, I went to the Guardian and watched Euros discuss how bad the US is at integration and how they're so much better at it.
Yeah, Europe, you got it down cold. That is why French "youths" tend to burn cars, British "Asians" rape kids and don't really get punished, etc.
Because you got your shit DOWN!
The South, I've always said, is the least racist area in the country, largely because we had to confront our racism. The Northeast never once had to and is a fucking powderkeg of racial hatred.
Al Sharpton wouldn't have risen to prominence here.
Basically, as best I can figure out, Dylann Storm Roof was lonely because he couldn't find any kindred spirits in real life.
Which harms the "Damn, SC is racist" meme, doesn't it?
I've been to the south, I've spent a lot of time there, and they are a backwards lot. You can't educate them, as they are all inbred twice.
As a South Carolinian, I will tell you, politely, to go fuck yourself.
If Nikki Haley had taken down that Confederate flag last year, and had run her dirty underwear up that flagpole, those innocent people would still have been murdered.
Flags don't kill people.
"He showed weak moral character and doesn't deserve the presidency."
Talk about pussy:
Democratic frontrunner Hillary Clinton forcefully called on Americans to discuss racial divisions but hasn't weighed in specifically on whether South Carolina should remove the flag from the Capitol complex.
The difference between Dylann Storm Roof and Meade, is that Roof had black friends.
Alex, you don't get to decide what is "so clear cut morally."
Sorry, nobody died and made you king.
Walker's response was on point and entirely consistent with what I understand to be both simple decency and good understanding of the role of government. It was also good politics. He didn't grandstand and he didn't get too out in front of mainstream opinions.
Walker showed again why he is a winner. He's very savvy about where the guardrails are.
Thank God! Our long national nightmare is over.
Now we can move on to important things. Right?
@damikesc, I suspect Coupe is a Moby. You don't have to be polite when you tell a troll or a Moby to get f*ck*d.
Man Law.
Hillary is in full "Ask Me No Questions and I Will Tell No Lies" mode.
That way Democrats may assume that she agrees with them personally on the maximum number of issues. It's a brilliant strategy, not lacking in moral courage at all.
Walker - Haley is sounding better and better as a GOP ticket. It's harder for Hillary! though. Maybe Caitlyn Jenner? Caitlyn's a lot better looking, but Hillary's got the balls. Oh Damn! I forgot. Caitlyn's a Republican.
So, after they take down the flag can we please fix the budget, illegal immigration and government intrusion in health insurance?
6/22/15, 3:21 PM
That's crazy talk racist.
"Blogger Alex said...
trumpetdaddy - some things are so clear cut morally speaking that you have to speak out. Walker won't get away with that weasley excuse during a POTUS debate against Hillary."
Good one, "...clear cut.... morally speaking.... Hilary".
(Sing along) One of these things is not like the other....
Glad to know that you can divine Hilary's words ahead of time. I am struggling with that. I blame the "don't ask (press), don't tell (Hillary)" policy in place.
John Derbyshire finds this to cite, if you wonder what the battle flag had to do with and perhaps missed it:
Shelby Foote:
It was close to 4 o'clock by now, and all that protocol required had been performed. After nearly three hours in the McLean parlor - half of one spent waiting and the rest in what could scarcely be called negotiation, since his adversary had freely given all he asked and more than he had hoped for: including immunity, down the years, from prosecution on any charge whatever in connection with the war - Lee was free to go. He rose, shook hands with Grant again, bowed to the others, and passed from the room, followed by Marshall. Out on the porch, several blue-clad officers came to attention and saluted as he emerged. He put on his hat to return their salute, then crossed to the head of the steps leading down to the yard. There he drew on his gauntlets, distractedly striking the fist of one hand three times into the palm of the other as he looked out across the valley to where the men of his army were waiting to learn that they had been surrendered. "Orderly! Orderly!" he called hoarsely, not seeing Tucker close by with Traveller, whose bit had been slipped to let him graze. "Here, General, here," Tucker replied, and Lee came down the steps to stand by the horse's head while he was being bridled. A cavalry major, watching from the porch, noted that "as the orderly was buckling the throat latch, the general reached up and drew the forelock out from under the brow band, parted and smoothed it, and then gently patted the gray charger's forehead in an absent-minded way, as one who loves horses, but whose thoughts are far away, might unwittingly do." Mounted, Lee waited for Marshall and Tucker, then started at a walk across the yard. Grant had come out of the house and down the steps by then, also on his way to the gate where his own horse was tethered. Stopping, he removed his hat in salute, as did the staff men with him. Lee raised his own hat briefly in return, and passed out through the gate and up the road. Presently, northward beyond the dwindled, tree-lined Appomattox, listeners on the porch heard cheers, and then a poignant silence.
unquote
That's what Derbyshire admires, having learned that as part of the culture.
What do black kids learn to admire today?
It makes a big difference.
Call it grace.
"I've been to the south, I've spent a lot of time there, and they are a backwards lot. You can't educate them, as they are all inbred twice."
Since you have been to the south I'm sure you will know exactly what I mean when I say:
Bless your heart.
As to the flag today, it's as if gays had located a baker who wouldn't cater a gay wedding and closed in.
Are all the victims buried? Has a week or two passed yet?
Wasn't it something like that which was Walker's BS reason for not having an opinion about the flag of government sanctioned white supremacy?
This is an example of the strengths of our American system. In many countries the urge to do something, anything would lead the government to do something tyrannical and destructive. Here, it only does something symbolic and pointless.
I like to see the cons pat themselves on the back. It only took the murder of nine innocent folks, and then the incredible grace of the remaining family members before y'all would be willing to remove the flag of government sanctioned white supremacy from the capitol.
Congratulations.
Where have you been PB, there are more innocent black people killed every single day in this country, and you don't seem to care. You are concerned about this NINE, and no other black people. Why? I can answer that, you don't give a fuck about black people. That's why you don't bitch about other blacks being killed. You never have, and you never will.
"remove the flag of government sanctioned white supremacy"
I am speaking as a non-American, basing my opinion on similar histories of other nations and tribes.
Well, yes it is. Its also a tribal banner. There is a large and powerful ethnic group that identifies with their symbols. Other people may not like aspects of their history but to kill that history, which is their identity, one must destroy the people, by either cultural or physical massacre.
The Union army and Federal government refrained from this in the 1860's, not wanting to get into a grinding guerilla war. They were probably wiser than their modern successors.
The degree of intense, poisonous hatred directed against white southerners by the modern intelligentsia, is unwise, as is the open discrimination against them by all sorts of bureaucracies and institutions. This inter-communal harassment has led to separatist violence time after time. If you want a modern example, consider the Tamils of Sri Lanka.
Live and let live is the road to prosperity and peace.
You mean the flag put on the Capitol by Democrats? Or put on a memorial on the grounds agreed to by Democrats?
That one?
Live and let live is the road to prosperity and peace.
Right, the south is America's hub of prosperity. That explains why they almost completely dominate the lists of the ten most poverty stricken and uneducated states. And, they feed off the federal government, as a net calculation.
Just keep doing more of the same. More conservative leadership. More racist flags. More lack of innovation.
Sheesh
damikesc,
If you're in favor of getting rid of all of that, count me in too.
If the south had more real successes I think they'd be less devoted to taking pride in their previous racist ways. You folks need to pull yourselves up by your bootstraps. Stop fixating on the past. Stop mooching on the rest of the country.
At least the south has fossil fuels. As bad as their economies are now, imagine if the south couldn't stick a straw in the ground or blowup mountains to find money. In other words, imagine if the Arabs didn't have oil.
It seems to me that flying the flag of rebellion against the United States is the opposite of patriotism. A lot of people died because of that decision to fire on the US flag in the harbor.
I get that it means different things to different people, but the original use of the flag was to fight a war, an awful war, a pointless war, where a lot of people died.
I wish I could buy PB&J TV time. I think that it would be very effective. All hate all the time. It's very attractive.
He's just bummed that no riots occurred. He LOVES watching black neighborhoods aflame.
My great great grandfather fought in the Civil War as a private in April of 1861 into the 2nd Gov Guards of South Carolina, Co. A, Kershaw's Brigade, McLaws Division, Longstreet's Corp of the Army of Northern Virginia. Wounded at the Peach Orchard in the Battle of Gettysburg - there at Appomatox in April of 1865 with Marse Robert.
The Battle Flag must come down. It was only to be used in battle. The War was lost and it's time to retire the Stars and Bars.
PB&J brings the regional bigotry and demonstrates an impressive ignorance. Exactly as expected.
I am not a ribeye
Btw, the fact that the south have feeble economies, educations, and mooch of the feds are not the only reasons that non-southerners don't need to worry about them wanting to break away.
The great political strength of cons in DC is not representative of the percent of votes cast in America.
Are cons and southerners really dumb enough to opt out of a system that allows them to mooch, and gives them governing majorities even when they earn a minority of the votes cast?
Are you?
Sufed-
John W. Lynch lost his arm in the Wilderness. 15th Louisiana Infantry.
The war was wrong. We're Americans, and we have one flag.
The Stars and Bars is gone at last. Blown away with the same spiritual wind that blew out of Emanuel AME church as blew out of Ebenezer Baptist Church 50 years ago. MLK's spirit is still with us. We did nothing to deserve it. It was a gift from God.
Maybe PB&J is a conservative MOBY? He is far enough over the top with the hate and insults.
Pointing out facts isn't a hateful insult. It's tough love.
PB&J apparently doesn't realize that the Southern states have the highest percentages of blacks, and is by extrapolation, calling blacks uneducated moochers. Typical racist.
" the fact that the south have feeble economies, educations, and mooch of the feds"
If one normalizes for race, using for instance the NAEP data, one may find that the rate of educational attainment of much of the South compares well with the rest of the US. As so much of the South is black this tends to suppress averages. But a black Texan is likely to do much better than a black Wisconsinite.
And if one normalizes GSP (Gross State Product) per capita on a PPP basis (Purchasing Power Parity, as are used in most international comparisons), as it has been my habit to do, one may find that the South is rapidly bypassing the coasts. South Carolina beat California over a decade ago on a PPP basis. Personally, I have helped numerous manufacturers move out of California to these supposedly unproductive places. Southern (relative) prosperity is not all about oil and gas - which itself is a Southern innovation, btw. All the engineering for the modern petrochemical industry is a Southern thing, including advanced drilling techniques and fracking.
As for mooching off the Feds - this is a matter of appearances, brought on by the fact that the owners of capital mainly do not live in the South, and major corporations generally aren't headquartered there. So a great portion of Federal taxes are collected, nominally, disproportionately, in places like NYC and California. If the South were an independent country taxing multinationals on their local income the calculation would be very different.
Please answer with substance.
"
Democratic frontrunner Hillary Clinton forcefully called on Americans to discuss racial divisions but hasn't weighed in specifically on whether South Carolina should remove the flag from the Capitol complex."
Al I can say is this.
Fabi,
Even if you just look at poverty rates for white folks southerners still come in with the top spots for most impoverished.
And, what's the excuse for these white folks? It's not like any of them live in states where the political leaders like to demonstrate contempt for white equality by flying anti-white equality flags.
" the fact that the south have feeble economies, educations, and mooch of the feds"
Says the dope who knows nothing.
I was in Charleston two weeks ago and was amazed at the fact that restaurants on weeknights were full until 10:30 PM every night. The people were mostly 25 to 35 year olds either on dates or couples on an evening out. The economy is booming. My daughter just moved there a few months ago and loves it.
The Confederate battle flag is NOT the "Stars and Bars". The Stars and Bars was the first of the national flags of the Confederacy and was generally not used on the battlefield. The second flag was "The Stainless Banner" and the third was "The Blood Stained Banner."
Images are here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America
The battle flag was used on the battlefield as a guide for the regiments and so the commanders, at the rear, could tell the progress of the battle and the position of the units. The color bearer marched at the point of the formation, unarmed, and a fellow soldier was expected to pick up the flag and keep moving if he fell. The reason it is generally used on monuments and in cemeteries is it is the flag under which the soldiers died. The only use of the Stars and Bars I know of today is on the logo of the United Daughters of the Confederacy.
As for the strategic balance in a modern Civil War, one has to give this some thought.
The situation is substantially inverted vs 1861.
The sinews of power, of a practical modern sort, are with what one could call the "South", but of course one has to include their cultural kin and sympathisers.
What sort of people hold the switches for the electric grid, and gas pipelines ? Who makes the metals, machines, vehicles, weapons, ammunition ? Who has a larger active and retired officer corps, and the most experienced soldiers ?
The liberals also live in isolated enclaves far from where the food and fuel come from, which are potentially hostile, over vulnerable interstates and railways through a potentially hostile countryside.
It does not pay to make enemies, especially enemies so numerous and dangerous.
Nikki Haley gave a lovely, moving speech. I have confederate ancestors, who were not monsters. Lee and Jackson were honorable men. Even though it won't cause Yankee haters and race baiters to shut up, I still think taking the flag down at the state capitol is the right thing to do, for the sake of my black Christian brothers and sisters in Charleston. They are more important than a flag.
" Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves." Philippians 2:3
Yankee self-righteous prigs need to get the beams out of their own eyes before picking the speck out of South Carolina's. Some people aren't worthy to lick the soles of the people of Charleston's boots.
In addition to my history lesson above about the flags, I would like to say that commenter "bywaya" is exactly correct. IT is the best comment on the entire thread. The Shelby Foote passage is also quite relevant. Lee, Grant, and Sherman all understood this.
Buwaya,
As I said, the south has fossil fuels. And, I don't at all underestimate its importance. Like I said, it's like the Arabs and their oil. Without it, there's not much of anything. And, it's a fact that the most difficult to get into chemical engineering schools are dominated by non-southern states. BTW, I have a chemical engineering degree. Petroleum engineering is more of a mixed bag, but there are few of these departments in non-southern schools. But, the few top level non-southern schools that are around have much tougher admissions.
And, the impact of the black population isn't enough to explain poor whites and the overall poverty for southern states.
You can make excuses for southern mooching. But, hopefully you'll think of something better than stating that the economically successful companies start in places other than the south.
buwaya: The degree of intense, poisonous hatred directed against white southerners by the modern intelligentsia, is unwise, as is the open discrimination against them by all sorts of bureaucracies and institutions.
That's the really interesting thing, that it is modern, really ramping up in the last decade or so. Not that South-bashing was ever non-existent, or Southerners not looked down on, but what's been developing recently is qualitatively different from what I knew from the first half of my life - and I was born and grew up in the Civil Rights era in the South. And it's really not all about the South. A lot of decent and well-intentioned people are not noticing what's going on here, and I think they will come to regret having allowed themselves to be so unthinkingly swept up in the poison. Because it sure as hell isn't going to stop with this flag issue.
I have no objection to removing it as a state symbol; makes perfect sense to me that black citizens would object to it. Everything other reason given - "treason! traitors!" - is just so much hysteria. Just about nobody before the last few years went around frothing at the mouth about devotion to Confederate symbols being indicative of some "treasonous" intent that must be suppressed as a threat to the nation. (As if these allegedly "unpatriotic" Southerners never fought or died for the United States.) Normal Americans simply didn't think that way about the legacy of the Civil War.
And on his second comment, "bywaya" nails it again with respect to how the situations of North and South are now inverted with respect to 1861. I was just thinking the same thing.
Æthelflæd:
That "beam" has a double edge. I'm surprised that Americans ever found a tolerable consensus. Perhaps they never did.
John Lynch said...
"It seems to me that flying the flag of rebellion against the United States is the opposite of patriotism."
And yet southerners send huge numbers of their children to fight and die for the Stars and Stripes. Other than Maine, the rates of military service in New England, New York, and D.C. lag way behind. Huh.
Sure. Including my family. Doesn't mean the flag is patriotic. Not saying anything about Southerners, just the flag.
The treason argument makes no sense in a country that exists because it rebelled against its mother country England.
I understand the argument that it causes pain to our black citizens. I don't understand the treason argument.
"And yet southerners send huge numbers of their children to fight and die for the Stars and Stripes. "
To fight, yes. To die, no. For the Stars and Stripes? None that I know.
The dominance of the north and coasts in higher education does not define genuine technological innovation. The college situation is a historical artifact, rapidly passing. The real thing is done in businesses small and large, where actual products and techniques are created and perfected. Colleges merely produce feedstock for a proper engineering education, I have found, which always happens only where real things are done. Where are things done ? Not where hands are tied and a hostile, enemy bureaucracy tries to destroy all.
The southerners did not act like Arabs, collecting rents from others. They made the modern oil industry that the Arabs hire to produce for them.
Just a quick look -
8th grade math 2013 (most comparable) -
Wisconsin white -296 Texas white - 300
Wisconsin black - 252 Texas black - 273
Etc.
No southerners have ever died in a war fighting for the United States under the American flag? Pardon my French, but wtf?
"I don't understand the treason argument."
Treason is just another word for failed revolution. Remember that our "mother country" had a civil war of its own. Also, a "Glorious" revolution.
Æthelflæd said...
Nikki Haley gave a lovely, moving speech. I have confederate ancestors, who were not monsters. Lee and Jackson were honorable men. Even though it won't cause Yankee haters and race baiters to shut up, I still think taking the flag down at the state capitol is the right thing to do, for the sake of my black Christian brothers and sisters in Charleston. They are more important than a flag.
The best reasoned argument I've heard yet. Thank you.
"No southerners have ever died in a war fighting for the United States under the American flag?"
Now you're changing your terms. From "for" to "under".
buwaya,
WI has nearly the highest per capita black poverty rates in the country. So, I'll agree that they suck.
Texas has massive poverty too. So, they also suck.
We can agree to agree.
Btw, according to Bloomberg statistics non-southern state dominate innovation. In fact if you want to see where southern states land on the list, you should start at fifty and start reading backward.
Sorry, Meade, you are making no sense. Guess what? We in the south love the Stars and Stripes and fly it all over the place. What is your point?
Poverty rates -
Texas White 8% Black 23% Hispanic 25% Total 17%
Wisconsin White 7% Black 39% Hispanic 32% Total 11%
And this is not, AFAIK, "regionally adjusted' as sometimes given
This is from the Kaiser foundation posting data from Census Bureau's March 2014 Current Population Survey (CPS: Annual Social and Economic Supplements).
Meade said...
"Treason is just another word for failed revolution. Remember that our "mother country" had a civil war of its own. Also, a "Glorious" revolution."
Yes, and?
Thank you for your kind reply, PB&J. I have no love lost for the Stars and Bars. Happy to see it go.
I would say that perhaps you've missed that two of the three largest technology and engineering centers in the country are located in North Carolina and Alabama. There's a lot more going on down here, as well, but I hope that you'll investigate that on your own.
I am not a chef salad
Define innovation. Much of the modern sort is pointless software tweaking.
Real innovation is about things and energy.
Real innovation is declining, because the world is entering a decadent age.
I am glad to see the Republican majority in the South Carolina legislature reverse the policies enacted by Democrats. The Democrats remain divisive.
"Yes, and?"
and there is nothing in the United States Constitution that provides for a state to secede from the union. Never has been, never will be. Once you're in, if you change your mind and want out, there is only one way and it's not legal. It's treason/revolution.
Most of the real industrial software investments I see - innovation, so they say - is to do "compliance", otherwise known as living with bureaucratic edicts.
Greater efficiency in pushing more paperwork is itself make-work.
It is not going to bring us a flying car.
Meade: Now you're changing your terms. From "for" to "under".
Now you're just being an idiot, Meade. Why don't you leave the nonsensical crap-spewing to Ritmo and Alex?
Meade,
You should try to sound more provincial. That would further whatever point you are not currently making.
Meade,
May all our country's leaders be men and women dedicated to the healing of our nation's wounded, lost, and dispossessed — guided by law, justice, and love.
may it be so...
Anglelyne, ask anyone presently serving in the military if they are "fighting and dying for the Stars and Stripes". And then feel free to apologize for calling me an idiot.
It's good to know that someone else thinks that Southern "heritage" could have more to be proud of than violent anti-Constitutional insurrection and slavery.
Someone other than carpet-bagging wanna-bes like Anglelyne.
Meade has canvassed every military member. Semantic arguments are stupid, especially online. This is more true when universal knowledge is required to be accurate.
Meade: the man, the myth, the legend in his own mind...
I think it might be time for a little moderation.
and there is nothing in the United States Constitution that provides for a state to secede from the union. Never has been, never will be. Once you're in, if you change your mind and want out, there is only one way and it's not legal. It's treason/revolution.
Meade gets it. This is precisely why insurrection was illegal. Lincoln understood that the Constitution was a legal compact, comparable to a contract, and could not be broken willy-nilly. As I said a dozen times yesterday (and as carpet-baggers like Anglelyne fail to comprehend), if someone want to change the Constitution so as to allow for secession, there's an amendment process. The E.U. (AFAIK) allows for this. So could our Constitution, if we wanted it.
But that's the thing. Neo-Confederates, revivalists, Lost Cause followers, and their sympathizers (like Anglelyne) don't want it. They just want to have things both ways. Illegally on each part.
No, the South will not "rise again" - at least not the way people mean that phrase. If it does, it won't be under that flag.
buwaya,
Yes they are measuring the numbers of technologically educated people.
http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/best-and-worst/most-innovative-in-u-dot-s-states
Most folks don't believe that fossil fuel extraction (i.e. the Arab model) and assembling stuff (i.e. the (nearly) slave workers in China model) are innovation. But, if you choose to exclude innovating from your definition of innovation, you're not really making much progress.
Btw, Fabi, I have been to the south. I've even been to South Carolina. In fact, I remember being in Greenville about eighteen years ago with four Asian friends. One person we ran into called them Chinks. Two others in passing cars pulled back their eyes to make some sort of slanted eye facial expression. And, lots of people stared at them, almost everywhere we went.
But, we did find an awesome strip club. It had a dress code, so we needed to change before coming back. Very formal, in the south.
"Meade: the man, the myth, the legend in his own mind..."
That depends on what you mean by "in" his own mind.
"Now you're just being an idiot, Meade."
I disagree. He's making a key point about America. I had a similar discussion with a very educated friend from Austria, who was very wary about American displays of patriotism. At the core of the American model is that we do not defend a Fatherland or for a flag. Our public servants are oriented by the Constitution, in effect the model of governance that binds us together as equals.
This is what makes America so unique and, in many ways, so misunderstood, as our patriotism is of a very different sort than many other places. The Stars & Stripes represents this allegiance to the Constitution, which is why burning the symbol itself is protected speech. It is pointing to a deeper bond. "Under" the flag, not "for" the flag, is a good way of saying that.
Provincialism demands moderation.
The treason argument makes no sense in a country that exists because it rebelled against its mother country England.
Constitution: Meet Æthelflæd. Æthelflæd, Constitution:
Section. 3. Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
I'm so glad I could arrange that introduction for the two of you. If you're at all different from the "Rebs", and at all similar to any decent American, you'll make great friends!
"This is precisely why insurrection was illegal."
Tell it to the original 13 colonies. Tell it to New England before the War of 1812. Tell it to Texas in 1836.
Yep, the south lost. We're all Americans again . Southerners have shed plenty of blood for the modern Union. Yanqui go home and look to your own badly segregated violent cities.
and there is nothing in the United States Constitution that provides for a state to secede from the union. Never has been, never will be.
And the fact that prior to the Civil war, over half the country's population, including lawmakers, judges and citizens, going all the way back to the Founding Fathers who wrote the Constitution, believed that there was a right for the States to leave the Union means nothing. Nothing I tell you.
Meade has spoken.
PBandJ....
The incident(s) you describe that happened in Greenville did not happen. It is a lie. You made it up. Also terribly unimaginative.
Lots of Asians in Greenville.
Gahrie said...
F-nande: On average, 18 black people are murdered each day in the US.
The vast majority by other Black people...
Yeah, around 90 to 95% (which is why most blacks are murdered by Democrats). Murder of blacks by whites is a man-bites-dog story, which is why almost each occurrence is in the news forever.
So how about the 10 blacks who got shot, one killed, at the kid's birthday party about a week ago? "A local story", or some such.
alan markus said...
Democratic frontrunner Hillary Clinton forcefully called on Americans to discuss racial divisions ...
A standard "white people are bad" speech never seems to hurt a politician, but if race is a social construct, can you divide by zero?
Extremely well put, Paddy.
And let me remind Birkel also that moderation in the pursuit of provincialism is no vice!
That flag has perpetuated as a symbol of slavery - race-based slavery. It has no business being flown by a state government. I'm all for free speech and ignorant morons are free to fly the flag. But the government South Carolina should know that it's time to let go. Further, that flag taints the argument of anyone who still believes in states rights. It allows those of us to which to preserve local control to be labeled as racists. It's time for that flag flight to end. Quickly.
Thought puzzle:
More than half the state's decide to leave the United States and form independent nations of some number. The president in that future alt-reality decides, contra Lincoln, to let them go without war. Congress similarly allows the states to leave.
Because the Constitution makes no provision for leaving, what happens?
and there is nothing in the United States Constitution that provides for a state to secede from the union. Never has been, never will be.
And the fact that we had to fight a civil war to decide the issue means nothing.
Meade has spoken.
Tell it to the original 13 colonies. Tell it to New England before the War of 1812. Tell it to Texas in 1836.
No. YOU go tell it to the Constitution (Article III, Section 3).
So incredible that people who would vote "Republican" these days have no understanding or appreciation of the entire basis for, or even a single thing that Lincoln did. Why don't you Lost Cause fanatics ever get it together? The last party that was all about this stuff was George Wallace's.
If you want to legalize secession, retroactively or for the future, amend the Constitution. We're the first modern country to even have one. The process for changing it to allow you to do what it expressly forbids is clear. No, Lincoln was not a monarch. He was duly elected. As was every president before him. Stop pretending you had no legal recourse for finding a way to allow for what you kept screaming that you want. You just never tried it, and then lost badly when you went all extra-legal on it. And all's fair in love and war.
But legislation is potentially different. And no, don't give a rebel yell if you can't "win" legislatively, either. Accepting certain things is part of what made our country different, and better, and even more amenable to reasoned dissent or even dissension than any other. The system was there. You just never tried it, and never will. But that's not our part.
Von Schivelbusch has some interesting insights on how losers of wars cope with their loss. Escaping into a "dream land" is one of them, and most aptly describes what Southern Confederate apologists have been doing for 150 years. And still apparently sometimes do.
But your people's understanding of that and your leaders' willingness to indulge that is changing.
"And the fact that prior to the Civil war, over half the country's population, including lawmakers, judges and citizens, going all the way back to the Founding Fathers who wrote the Constitution, believed that there was a right for the States to leave the Union means nothing. Nothing I tell you."
No, Gahrie. It meant something — to some people prior, as you said, to the Civil War. After the Civil War, anyone who still believed it was... is... simply... wrong.
LibertarianSafetGuy wishes the Republican controlled legislature overturn the actions of previous Democrat controlled legislatures from within the political process.
Nearly everybody agrees: Democrats acted poorly when they controlled South Carolina politics.
Michael,
I guarantee it 100% happened. And, I just checked the year, it was 1997.
You are despicable for your denial statement which completely wipes out a reality the that I firsthand witnessed in Greenville. And, you reach the level of complete scum to say that these Greenville incidents were imaginary.
Where do you get off claiming you know my experiences, and you the personality traits of the Greenville population.
Looser is as looser does. Fool.
"And the fact that we had to fight a civil war to decide the issue means nothing."
No, It means, just as you say, that it has been... decided.
Meade said...
"Yes, and?"
and there is nothing in the United States Constitution that provides for a state to secede from the union. Never has been, never will be.
Sure there is:
Article 1, Section 10 - Powers Prohibited of States ("secede" not mentioned, therefore not prohibited)
and Amendment 10: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Help, and hope, is possible, Southern Confederate Revivalist/Sympathizers!
Could a future Congress pass a law, duly signed by a future president, to allow secession?
I am not interested in secession R&B. I am not a "Lost Causer". I think the south was rightly judged by God for man stealing and separating families. That doesn't mean the constitutional issues have all been solved and that the north was and is full of Harriet Tubmans and the south full of Simon Legrees. Ain't no hypocrite like a Yankee hypocrite.
Why did Democrats place the flag at the South Carolina Capital Building?
And why must Republicans fix Democrats' earlier error?
PBandJ....
Didn't happen. If you want to make up a dramatic story of southern racism you have to be a bit more imaginative. Greenville has a large Asian and Indian population and is the home of a University that employs and educates Asians.
Your story telling is reminiscent of the UVA hoax. Anyone who knew the first thing about fraternities knew it was made up from scratch. Anyone who knows anything about Greenville would know your story is a lie. Another hint. When you lie lay it on thinly.
Tell it to the original 13 colonies. Tell it to New England before the War of 1812. Tell it to Texas in 1836.
You know, I think this only whets your whistle because the Lost Causers riled you up about the whole North-South thing.
But what if it was another Southern State setting off explosives in your own state? If Mississippi, for instance, started setting off bombs in federal installations in South Carolina, could the Federal Government not respond with full force against Mississippi militias for such an action? What if there was collateral damage to other, non-federal parts of South Carolina? Oh, I guess the whole "legality of insurrection" nonsense would go out the window, then.
But that's because you'd have to look at the issue rationally, and fairly. Something that the Lost Cause never does.
"Because the Constitution makes no provision for leaving, what happens?"
Probably nothing. But I don't think it takes too much thought to puzzle out what might happen if the Disunited States leaving decide to use military force against the remaining United States. Do you?
Congress determines how states join the Republic. Should Congress therefore decide the reverse process?
I am not interested in secession R&B. I am not a "Lost Causer". I think the south was rightly judged by God for man stealing and separating families. That doesn't mean the constitutional issues have all been solved and that the north was and is full of Harriet Tubmans and the south full of Simon Legrees. Ain't no hypocrite like a Yankee hypocrite.
Then you tell me how you interpret Article III, Section 3 of the Constitution regarding treason and the "levying of war" against (the United States). When would it have applied?
"Why did Democrats place the flag at the South Carolina Capital Building?
And why must Republicans fix Democrats' earlier error?"
Because we are all Americans who voluntarily help one another get things right. (See Paddy's comment)
Meade said...
"And the fact that we had to fight a civil war to decide the issue means nothing."
No, It means, just as you say, that it has been... decided.
Force != law. It wouldn't be the first time the federal gummint did something unconstitutional, and it obviously wasn't the last.
But the Confederacy may have violated A1S10, not by the individual states seceding, but by "enter[ing] into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation," etc. Secede first, then enter into confederation.
The Reconstruction days ended and some mean whites took over the South who had little mercy to blacks, carpet baggers or poor whites. They wanted to do whatever it took to survive in political power.Those guys ruled until they stupidly left the FDR coalition and became the Dixiecrats who dumped Truman in 1948 because he was against segregation and favored equality for black citizens. that also threatened to open a door for poor whites to demand equal treatment in the baby boomer prosperity 1950s.
Some of them morphed into GOP politicians after Reagan's landslide. But the old Zell Miller Dems were still around until the late 1990s.
But conflating the Civil War traditions with these Segregationists after WWII is allowing those smart but mean guys an out they don't deserve. They used Civil War Romance long after it had become a banal evil left over and ready to fade from memory. The USA won WWII and there was no more Rebellion in men's hearts with rare exceptions after 1969.
So good riddance to it and it's Battle Flag, finally.
A wonderful non-answer to my hypothetical, Meade. You failed to seriously address the question.
Further, you think fewer than half the state's would declare war, outnumbered and outmanned? Failure on multiple levels.
Try harder.
Then you go ahead and make this an eternally debated and personalized "moral" issue, Æthelflæd. The legality of a government being able to respond to force with force seems pretty well established - and was way before the Constitution was ever ratified.
Bull shit, as to the politics, Meade. Republicans are being cast as the bad guys even as they fix Democrat policies. And the historically ignorant and provincial types prove themselves ass holes.
So good riddance to it and it's Battle Flag, finally.
That's what I want to know. If it's so important to be a proud Southerner why can't the pride be based in something other than love of the Confederacy and Confederate-excuse making?
The Lost Cause guys really did the South in. They effectively taught generations of Southerners that regional pride and American patriotism was about venerating the Confederacy. Undoing that wayward lesson is more tedious than removing a tapeworm. What a curse they left! Thank the divine that a new generation (and a slightly different population) is finally seeing the light on that and doing what needs to be done.
"Try harder."
Why? Get your 26 hypothetical states to in fact declare their independence (for some imaginary reason of yours) and then I'll try harder.
"Rhythm and Balls" can demonstrate all the knowledge of the South any Northerner needs, just by quoting stereotypes about Southerners being stereotypical.
Without. Irony.
"Republicans are being cast as the bad guys"
Poor babies — they're being cast! As bad guys!
You were talking about Constitutional process, Meade. I asked you to consider whether you are right by considering a hypothetical.
You did not follow the reasoning because you do not want to backtrack. I understand your dilemma.
Try harder, you provincialist.
"Force != law."
Equals? No. But you don't have much justice if you don't enforce the law, do you?
-isms are ugly.
We should all agree.
"Rhythm and Balls" can demonstrate all the knowledge of the South any Northerner needs, just by quoting stereotypes…
Stereotypes? I quoted encyclopedias, and even the Constitution! But I guess that doesn't compare the folklore of one's "heritage". How could it even begin to?
Keep telling those stories. But they were to calm a different generation, dealing with different issues.
Learn to face your issues, Man!
"Try harder, you provincialist."
And you, Birkel, a law professor!!!
People who support Democrats are lying. News at 11.
Right, Meade?
Michael,
We actually took the incidents with good humor, and still do. Can't do much else, and we didn't need to stay. But, the absurdity of some loser in a thread today claiming this didn't happen because there are some Asian folks in a University in Greenville is too much. What does that even have to do with anything? At your core is a dark, sad void.
When I hear about people complaining about insufficient respect for the South, it reminds me of Wafa Sultan's response to complaints that Muslims were not being given sufficient respect.
She said that in order to gain respect - let alone demand it, you have to do something worthy of respect.
Refusing to face the problems of one's own history is not seen as respectable in the world in which we live. Deal.
When I read comments castigating an entire people, I discern hatred in the writer's soul, "Rhythm and Balls".
You do yourself no favors, carrying so much hostility.
I watched Lincoln again last night. Incredible movie.
Unless Doris Kearns Goodwin and Stephen Spielberg were lying, Alexander Stephens was still pressing for slavery just months if not weeks before Appomattox. He wanted speedy readmission of the Conf. states precisely so that they could be given the opportunity to block ratification of the 13th amendment.
These men were not the heroes you're looking for, Southern Men.
Agreed, "Rhythm and Balls". Those Democrats were terrible for many reasons.
When I read comments castigating an entire people, I discern hatred in the writer's soul, "Rhythm and Balls".
You do yourself no favors, carrying so much hostility.
Regarding the Confederate cause, I make no apology for feeling very hostile toward it.
Those who would whitewash its effects, I also make no apologies for dealing effectively and truthfully and accurately with them.
We are talking more than 150 years on, and effects being defended (or at least flimsy apologetics being inflicted) that wouldn't have been with us had it not been for the Confederacy itself, the institutions it wanted to defend, the way its leaders later sought to retain their power with a Lost Cause narrative that is given way more credibility than it ever deserved.
I look at apologists for not sweeping away the South's true past (by first, dealing honestly with it head-on) the way I do certain other trouble-makers today. I realize that they're a good bit of history behind the rest.
There's nothing wrong with asking people to catch up to the same modern moral norms that every other decent person seems to take for granted, even if that means jettisoning the tiniest bit of nostalgia for the Confederate great-grand-uncle in your closet.
It's history just needs to be faced, even if anti-government types (of all stripes) want to still look at it as a way to feel invigorated by a clearly illegal and unconstitutional insurrection.
Although I agree that there's no reason not to believe that Robert E. Lee was a pretty honorable guy. (And a good general).
Davis and Stephens, not so much.
You know nothing of the South, "Rhythm and Balls". What you express is provincialism and alleged cultural superiority.
Meanwhile, the South is more fully integrated than any other area of the country. You are ignorant and foolish.
Nothing much new there.
When California, Illinois, and New York go bankrupt in the next decade, will the United States have to bail them out? Will it be enough if the United States just amends its bankruptcy laws to let these states stiff their creditors, including their pensioners? Won't the pensioners, as U.S. citizens, expect the United States to make good on their states promises? How can the United States say no to them, and still consider itself one nation, indivisible?
Southern racist Democrats were bad actors. We can all agree.
Now let the party of Margaret Sanger tell us more of cultural superiority.
ByHaving been to much of the South many times on business, and being a bit chinky as well as an obvious foreigner, I can testify that I have never been treated with anything but courtesy and consideration. It is a fact that the American common people are far more polite and kindly than the "educated". And this goes for any race.
The hate for southerners, is in fact a hate for all the white commoners wherever they live. It is oppression of part of the white tribe by the other. Whatever has happened to Southern nostalgia, this poison is more likely than anything to ignite a restored ethnic mythology. This has happened numerous times in history. I come from a country with many ethnicities ( though all look alike, more or less). All I can say is its a good thing that they are mainly separated into islands, or by mountains.
You do not want to get started with this. It is dangerous. Do not poke this animal, he is powerful.
It wasn't treason. Whether state could leave the union was undecided. Indeed you might think it would be automatic if they vote to seceed, just like joining, but force of arms settled the legal question the other way.
The officers viewed each other as honorable.
PB&j....
It was the unnecessary second episode that gave you away. It wasn't believable on its own. Certainly so w hen coupled with the first.
Anyhow, it's your problem, not mine.
Cliches are not the same as stereotypes.
buwaya puti,
The Boston Brahmins hold in low regard the rubes in Western Massachusetts too. It is cultural. The same is true between the denizens of Philadelphia and the residents of central Pennsylvania. Or Austin and the rest of Texas.
But they express it about the South because the South is a safe target for them.
What you express is provincialism and alleged cultural superiority.
If I have benefitted from a Northern region's greater, longer familiarity with industrialization, concern for those hurt by it and the capitalism and urbanization it encouraged, so be it. There are a good number of explicitly Southern writers giving eloquent descriptions of a gentler and more agrarian culture from long ago whom I equally admire, even if I realize the problems inherent in trying to prolong its importance or the lifestyle it encouraged. Few things in life lack for trade-offs. It might surprise you to know that Europe used to relate better to the antebellum South, finding them to be more erudite, aristocratic and civilized. They weren't totally wrong; industrialization and capitalism have a vulgarizing effect, as rapidly industrializing Southerners are now finally finding out. It's not an easy transition to undergo. They were also, surprisingly enough, less religious then than the North.
Things are not as cut-and-dried as they seem. You can learn a lot about the comparative history of North and South, how one region became more like the other as its counterpart turned more toward the way the first one originally was. It will blow your mind and open it to useful insights, once you get beyond the whole darn Us vs. Them thing.
Meanwhile, the South is more fully integrated than any other area of the country. You are ignorant and foolish.
That's nice. It's hard to see what the point is, though. There is racism everywhere, including among Michael Slager, and I just feel lucky that whenever there is intra-communal strife (as exists with every ethnicity, not just white and black), I at least don't have to find an explanation for any nearby Jeff Davis memorial, were I to live in Richmond. Or an orange flag with a diagonal blue, star-embedded cross. That would make me feel uncomfortable. And I know finding ways to justify them would be difficult, at least if I was taught to respect them all my life.
Nothing much new there.
I guess there's a bit of that open-mindedness that you'd like to convince me your region is so fond of.
My region? No. But I stand ready to call any who would judge individuals by some collective standard for what they are. You have demonstrated your ignorance but I would not call others to account for your shortcomings. They are yours and you own them.
Birkel said...Could a future Congress pass a law, duly signed by a future president, to allow secession?
Absolutely not.
Only a Constitutional Amendment allowing states to individually secede would need to be ratified. Specifically stating that each states legislature could decide on their own.
The only other way is to abandon the Constitution, which is more likely. The current wording, and Supreme Court decisions, do not allow for states to secede.
My region? No. But I stand ready to call any who would judge individuals by some collective standard for what they are. You have demonstrated your ignorance but I would not call others to account for your shortcomings. They are yours and you own them.
Oh, ok. So then you feign a falsely wounded dignity/pride in lieu of actually reading the objective statements in what I'm saying.
It's good to know that you speak for the South, Birkel. Are you like the Lorax, too? Do you speak for the trees?
You are funny.
Coupe,
You must address the hypothetical as offered or admit that you do not wish to do so. Try harder. Perhaps pool your talents with those of Meade.
"Unless Doris Kearns Goodwin and Stephen Spielberg were lying, Alexander Stephens was still pressing for slavery just months if not weeks before Appomattox. He wanted speedy readmission of the Conf. states precisely so that they could be given the opportunity to block ratification of the 13th amendment."
LOL - that's the funniest thing I've ever read at Althouse. Yep, if can't trust a known liar/plagiarist and a Hollywood film producer about Civil War History who can you trust?
Yep, if can't trust a known liar/plagiarist and a Hollywood film producer about Civil War History who can you trust?
Not you, that's for sure. You just say whatever crap you can pull out of your unwashed arse.
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