The words are 3 phrases. Perhaps you can guess before looking. What 3 phrases would do a lot of good for girls if they had an ingrained reflex to say them forthrightly at the appropriate time?
"Stop interrupting me."
"I just said that."
"No explanation needed."
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146 comments:
Well, someone else had just said that. Probably in less words.
Geez. So tired of this shit. Precious little snowflakes that might wilt if we don't shower them daily with "you go girl!" praise.
Watched them be coddled with these kinds of articles for at least a decade. Which has taught me women are weak emotional creatures in constant need of reinforcement.
When are they going to be equal?
Maybe they never were.
Can we look forward to another 20 years of patting them on the head and telling them how strong they really are?
Woman up already.
Snowflakes don't wilt.
Men's penises do however.
Your feelings are showing.
"What 3 phrases would do a lot of good for girls if they had an ingrained reflex to say them forthrightly at the appropriate time?"
"Appropriate time" is the tricky part.
Now now, is it ladylike to dick punch poor Fen like that?
The Wicked Warlock of the West: "I'm wilting. I'm wilting. I'm wilting."
The 3 phrases would do a lot of good for girls who want to signal that they need male protection.
Wow, this thread went down to dicks really rapidly
"Stop interrupting me."
.....or as men would say, "Hold my beer! Watch this!!"
I would add "You're being rude" before I said "Stop interrupting me"
I'm good enough, I'm strong enough, and doggone it, people like me.
...of course, if a man responded similarly, it'd be patriarchy.
or as both Nancy R and your Mother said:
"Just say No!"
Ann Althouse: Snowflakes don't wilt. Men's penises do however. Your feelings are showing.
Oh noes! I micro-aggressed Anne's self-esteem and made her all pissy.
I'm so sorry. Poor dear. A lifetime of scholarship and accomplishment, and she still dives for the fainting couch.
Even Meade knows she's weak. He has to come in and White Knight for the poor thing.
[pats Ann on head]
Now now. You are strong! You are brave! You go girl! Just ignore what that anonymous stranger said about women.
Geez.
You'd think there by this point you could assemble a video montage of these scenarios where women are constantly being interrupted or verbally marginalized by men in this way.
You know, at video taped conferences, forums, etc., rather than these anecdotes.
Beside the video that actually documents the mischaracterization of Larry Summers academic supposition on differences in gender aptitudes, what do they have to show?
And I think this has been discussed before here, hasn't it? The article is from last July, and I get a real sense of Deja vu when I read it now.
Snowflakes don't wilt.
Men's penises do however.
Your feelings are showing.
Thank you, Althouse. More creative that what I had in mind.
The 3 phrases are simple and useful. They're a helpful corrective for young males who get into the habit of interrupting, repeating things the female just said as if it's new, and mansplaining.
I should think it would be better for all concerned if females spoke up instead of letting the male get the idea that his verbal behavior is a good idea.
What if you knew your young son was doing any of these things? You might want to try to help him change to more rewarding approaches to conversations with women. If women would just say those phrases, he'd probably learn pretty quickly.
Notice that the advice to women is making women responsible and not victims of male oppression.
Think about it. Resist the knee-jerk reaction here.
Fen, can you even begin to understand how bad your comment was? I'm not going to womansplain it to you.
Do you need to take a day?
I prefer variations on:
"I'm aware of that."
"That doesn't apply in my case."
That's interesting. Where did you hear that?"
Much more informative.
"They're a helpful corrective for young males who get into the habit of interrupting, repeating things the female just said as if it's new, and mansplaining"
Mansplaining is a madeup bullshit word. Anyone using it should not be taken seriously. Its Orwellian.
As for being interrupted and talked down to and all that, men deal with it from other men every day.
Somehow, we manage to make it through the day without getting our panties all bunched.
Woman up. You want to be treated as equals, start acting equal. We shouldn't have to stop the class and host a self-esteem intervention every time your little feelings get hurt.
Interrupting and mansplaining isn't something all men do, and it is something that women do as well, except it's not called mansplaining.
This isn't a response to sexism; it's a response to people with character flaws or people who are being stupid.
"I should think it would be better for all concerned if females spoke up instead of letting the male get the idea that his verbal behavior is a good idea."
God forbid that any man should ever think his behavior is a "good idea."
Obviously the Church should not have stopped at 7 deadly sins. Everyone can guess why they did.
Let me also add that I agree with you and will say that it is a polite response to oppression.
That is great, and "I just said that" is the most important. In the early 1980s I was the second woman appointed to a Board where women weren't wanted. Every time I said something of value there would be silence, and then it would be repeated by a male member of the Board as if it was his own new idea and the Board would support that person like crazy. That same thing would happen other places too, but that Board is where it really stood out and when I finally understood what was going on.
&&&&&&&&&& &&&&&&&&
That's me doing jazz hands for Lyle.
I would clap, but apparently that might be "triggering" to the perpetually oppressed females in the room...
"You want to be treated as equals, start acting equal."
Isn't that what those 3 phrases attempt teach? I like what Craig Landon suggested at 8:31. Works well for girls and boys.
Lyle Smith points out the sexism at the base of the premise behind this narrative.
As if gender reassignment -- for men -- was a cure for obnoxious behavior.
Yeah, frankly, I'm on Fen's side on this one. It's just a comment thread; turning his metaphors on him as a dick punch seems childish.
Most of us men try to treat women with respect all the time. We try to recognize that they may not be like us. We fail sometimes in both. It shouldn't be a competition.
Those three phrases sound like femishit to me. I've never been interrupted by a woman, or said something that was ignored and repeated back as though it was novel by a woman, or asked for an explanation by a woman when none was merited. Never.
"I should think it would be better for all concerned if females spoke up instead of letting the male get the idea that his verbal behavior is a good idea. "
This is just hilarious. Ann, you jumped the shark on this one.
Isn't that what those 3 phrases attempt teach? I like what Craig Landon suggested at 8:31. Works well for girls and boys.
Sure, but notice how these kinds of articles are always directed at girls?
Which infantilizes them. Apparently, boys don't need a constant affirmation and coaching on how to be assertive?
I'd be fine with the article if it was advice for both girls AND boys.
Instead, it sets up the usual female victimhood nonsense, and just makes women look weak.
"Instead, it sets up the usual female victimhood nonsense, and just makes women look weak."
Yup. What is funny is that she can't see that.
"Mansplaining is a madeup bullshit word. Anyone using it should not be taken seriously. Its Orwellian."
Ironically, "orwellian" is a madeup bullshit word.
Meade: Ironically, "orwellian" is a madeup bullshit word.
Newspeak then, from Orwell's 1984.
And I notice you are still White Knighting poor little Ann. Apparently, even you don't think she can handle herself.
The irony is I think more of women than you do.
Fen said...
That's me doing jazz hands for Lyle.
"This is jazz hands."
Well, "Orwellian" is a word that most people understand and can relate to (if they've read 1984).
"Mansplain" makes lots of us, like me, think "he/she better be trying to be ironic, like the Professor with 'womansplain'" above, because if he/she means that word for reals, I'm turning the ears off right now."
Put me in mind of another 3per ? from Simon Noonan (roughly):
What 3 questions used to be rude but now are considered rude not to ask?
Have you had work done?
How much was your handbag?
What sex are you?
Comments men can make to prove they are listening to the woman speak:
"If I am hearing you correctly, I think that is a strong point."
"That sounded insightful. Can you repeat that louder so everyone can hear?"
"You obviously prepared for this meeting very hard."
"Those are all great questions: gentlemen, can you suggest any pragmatic solutions?"
"I would never have thought to put that in PowerPoint."
I am Laslo.
@Meade, in response to your comment at 8:20. That is no lady, that is your wife.
Ah, the old ones are still the best.
PS: "Orwellian" may be a made-up word but it is not bullshit. It's quite real. 1984 is coming, it's just 32 years late.
PPS: Add my vote to what Craig Landon wrote.
Doonan.
This thread reminds me of the movie "Adam's Rib." Which was funny.
Replace any of the three with "Should I make you a sandwich?"
What is "white knighting" Fen? Sounds like newspeak.
Would you like a shovel, Meade?
Other phrases all genders should deploy:
"Hold my beer and watch this!"
"I'm pretty sure it's the fuel pump."
"Nah, she's just in a mood."
"Nah, he's just in a mood."
The notion that women won't interrupt is a riot. Some of the best interrupters I've ever known have been women. Some interrupt out of anxiety. Some out of assertiveness. Men are similar.
It's interesting how different men and women can be in same sex groups. Three men having a conversation will riff off of each other, but generally will let the other make a point and then respond. Perhaps this comes from men's more pervasive experience in the commercial world. Women with commercial experience tend to act as the men do.
On the other hand, I have frequently seen groups of three or four women all talking at once. Not just for a moment or two but for the entire conversation. They may even be saying essentially the same thing. The amazing thing is, they actually seem to understand each other through all this.
The above assume two factors: (1) sobriety and (2) roughly equal social status. Remove either of those, especially the sobriety, and all bets are off.
(Personal observations only. No scientific rigor claimed. But I have been observing for a long time.}
Her whining that men won't make eye contact with her...why would they? Feminist harpies would whine about being objectified.
And given that she is clueless as to what Summers was saying, I agree, it calls into question anything she writes given her near total capacity to comprehend arguments.
And when a guy was in agreement with her on demeaning women, she decided to be a bitch to him. Perhaps men ignore her because she is just tiresome to deal with? Women seem to have a belief that everybody SHOULD care what they think, something men do not remotely believe.
Want equality? This is what it looks like.
...And women aren't viewed as being as funny as men because, by and large, women aren't. Ellen Degeneres was a brilliant comedian. Few others are close while tons of men are. It's simple reality. Women rely on applause, not laughter, for self justification.
Boys have been fucked over for years. I won't sacrifice my sons for "equality"
As Yoda would say, "there is another."
"What the fuck do you think you're doing?"
This is why I punch my daughter at least once every day.
But I punch with love.
Funny. I use those phrases all the time dealing with my teenage son.
My version is a tailored a slightly differently, of course:
"You're interrupting. Wait" (I have a traffic cop hand gesture that goes along with this one.)
"You already asked me that question."
"You already know the answer."
I should print this for his sister.
I think it's hilarious that anyone would think that women don't interrupt men and that they don't "womansplain". I hear it ALL THE TIME.
Life in the corporate world is competitive, and for damn good reason. If the people inside the corporation are not competitive, their lunch is going to get eaten by another corporation where the people in it ARE competitive. The answer for women is not to try to change men. Why? Because either a) you'll fail, or b) you'll succeed and your company will go out of business. The answer is for women to compete. If they're uncomfortable with that, get out of the corporate world and find something else to do. God knows there are plenty of men who do the same thing.
1984 was intended to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
I consider the word "mansplaining" to be a sexist slur, used by weak, unassertive women to cover for their weakness by blaming men for their lack of strength.
These women want to be deferred to for simply being female in that old patriarchal unspoken way we're supposed to have rejected.
I agree with Fem that this is fainting couch bullshit from weak sisters that like to blame men for their inability to be assertive, or to handle long explanations coming from men.
Attributing being interrupted by men as "sexism" is sexist in itself. And it really brings to mind how women try to control men through shaming language.
When a woman interrupts me, it may be rude, but it isn't "sexism".
A WOMAN friend of mine posted an internet meme on her wall that goes like this "I don't mean to interrupt people. I just randomly remember things and get excited." All but two of the 14 people commenting that they did just that thing were women. The other two were men, one of them being me.
I've been interrupted by females, had them proffer an idea I just mentioned as if it were suddenly thought of by themselves and had women overly explain things to me.
When I receive an overly long explanation from another person, man or woman, on a subject I know about, I say, "got it", or "I know that", or, better yet, I take the opportunity to show my own knowledge of the subject and share my thoughts with that person. What I don't do is attribute it to bigotry and get all huffy and call them "sexists".
My ego isn't harmed by such and the solipsism exhibited by these types of females speaks for itself.
Fen is right in this. The egoism and solipsism of this stuff is grating and infantile.
Attributing every rudeness by a man as "sexism" is the entire problem I have with the egoists and narcissists that call themselves "feminists".
It's just a comment thread; turning his metaphors on him as a dick punch seems childish.
She got childish because she let emotion cloud reason.
It's one of the reasons men disregard women in the board room. Men are suspicious of emotion, and if someone allows it to affect their judgement, we have less regard for them and trust them less. And listen to them less. We do the same thing to men who are drama queens.
And to dovetail with damikesc's point that "perhaps men ignore her because she is just tiresome to deal with"... men prefer to keep it short, concise and to the point. Ever notice how most of the men around you prefer silence? If a women (or man) belabors the point, we tend to tune them out and ignore them after the 2nd paragraph.
So I think many of these "men don't take me seriously!" complaints have more do to with women not understanding how *men* view the world around them.
Women are supposed to be better communicators, but are missing it because they are so focused on narcissistically playing their Victim Card every time there is conflict.
You want to be taken seriously in the workplace? Know your audience. Men make all kinds of allowances for the way women think and act. Women should too, but are instead focused on "it's all about you girl!" nonsense.
But my bad, talking about men instead of the preferred narrative. I am "derailing" or somesuch feminist newspeak nonsense.
Meade, you playing stupid about those words isn't isn't working like you intend it to.
"Stop interrupting me."
"I just said that."
"No explanation needed."
If a parent successfully trains their teen-age daughter to deploy those phrases at the drop of a hat, they'd better hope that their daughter has a sizable group of male friends.
Because, let me tell ya, after the daughter pulls that crap on her female friends, she won't have any more.
I think it's hilarious that anyone would think that women don't interrupt men and that they don't "womansplain". I hear it ALL THE TIME.
No joke. Women interrupt constantly. I don't care if my wife does it, but her friends do it as if they have anything interesting to say.
Women want their co-workers to praise everything they do. Sorry, but I will give out gold stars to little kids. I won't treat women like little kids --- much as they wish to be treated as such.
Fen, "jazz hands" triggers me.
I prefer "Up Twinkles" please. My feelz demand it.
I am lucky to work in an office where most of the women are focused, succinct and professional. Even the ones that I want to have suck my cock.
I am Laslo.
Snowflakes don't wilt.
No, but they melt at the first sign of any heat.
Men's penises do however.
Your feelings are showing.
Actually, your feelings just melted down all over the thread.
Female shaming language directed at a mans penis just shows you cannot refute the argument.
In my office I have learned not to stare at a woman's breasts when she is talking: it is a sign of respect.
I do check out their ass when they walk away, though. Not many panty lines in today's offices. Or so I have observed.
I am Laslo.
There is certainly truth here. But there is also no recognition that this SAME dynamic occurs all the frikkin' time in groups of only men. Alpha males interrupt. Beta male ideas are often ignored then, as if by miracle, spring forth later as the best concept EVAH.
But that's OK because .... because no women were harmed in the making of that movie?
Does a woman without panty lines NOT expect people to check out her ass? I thought that was the point.
Take all the time you need at the copier; I'll wait.
I am Laslo.
I am so glad that I am a man so no one ever interrupts me, takes my idea and presents it as their own, or asks for an explanation.
I don't think I have ever heard anyone outside of academia use the term "Mansplain." Someone needs to check their privilege.
SGT Ted said...
"I agree with Fem that this is fainting couch bullshit from weak sisters that like to blame men for their inability to be assertive, or to handle long explanations coming from men."
I don't normally laugh at typo humor but THAT is a goodun!
No joke, Steve. I am amazed to hear I've never been interrupted in my life.
"Wow, this thread went down to dicks really rapidly."
Cuz Fem said wilt.
Fem's Law.
Nobody said males shouldn't also use those 3 phrases when appropriate.
Why is anyone reading that between the lines? Examine your own thought processes, and don't mistake them for what other people are saying.
A corollary to "I just said that" is "That's not what I said."
Here's a 2-sentence conversation retracking for more sophisticated and nervy interlocutors: "That's what you heard. Why did you hear that?"
Perhaps, but you can't say "stop interrupting me" and then not let anyone else in the room get a word in edgewise.
"But there is also no recognition that this SAME dynamic occurs all the frikkin' time in groups of only men. Alpha males interrupt. Beta male ideas are often ignored then, as if by miracle, spring forth later as the best concept EVAH."
When something has not been said yet, but you think it's a related point, why do you have to express it by attributing negative characteristics to the person who has NOT said it? That person might agree with you and might also have thought of it but not addressed it because it was not the point she was involved in making. Why not contribute more positively and with greater generosity toward the other person... especially before you voice a complaint about how YOU have not been treated with sufficient empathy?
Yes, sir.
No, sir.
As you wish, sir.
Did I guess right?
When something has not been said yet, but you think it's a related point, why do you have to express it by attributing negative characteristics to the person who has NOT said it? That person might agree with you and might also have thought of it but not addressed it because it was not the point she was involved in making. Why not contribute more positively and with greater generosity toward the other person... especially before you voice a complaint about how YOU have not been treated with sufficient empathy?
You want to be an EQUAL?
Then don't whine and cry about lack of empathy.
Either act like an adult or simply shut up and move along.
You don't see men whining that other men don't act more generously towards them. That is an expectation based solely on the person being a female.
Women don't deserve an inch more empathy or generosity than a man in a truly equal society.
Here's a 2-sentence conversation retracking for more sophisticated and nervy interlocutors: "That's what you heard. Why did you hear that?"
I heard that, because the author states that only men do those 3 rude things.
She posits that it is only due to male sexism towards females; "mansplaining", that overly explaining things is something only men do, when that is not true.
Same with claiming a just spoken idea as one's own. It is not only men that do it.
The anti-male sexism is right up front in her bullshit whining. I will no longer remain silent when I see or hear it.
And when we mention that women are hardly generous towards us, we're called whiners.
So, yeah, don't give a shit if women at work feel like their ideas aren't appreciated.
Either be an adult or be a child. Don't expect adult privilges and child-like treatment.
Use your breasts to get attention, is my advice.
Heh. Meade still trying to get in a cheap shot. You mad bro?
At least he's doing a service to the concept of gender equality - proving that men also get their panties bunched.
Or am I being too generous? Do you still have your balls, Meade?
These types of women are simply asserting the old female privilege afforded to them by the Patriarchy that viewed them as too fragile and weak and weakminded to handle adult life.
They are doing it for tactical reasons in order to gain advantages over men with considerations not afforded by men to other men.
They need to check their goddamn privilege.
Fem,
My eyes are up here.
I would add "You're being rude" before I said "Stop interrupting me"
Indeed. In fact, I found all three of those phrases to be rather rude, and someone would to have been awful rude first for me to pull one out.
But then I remember my mother telling me to be quiet and let my brother talk, so maybe I'm not particularly in need of these helpful hints.
I actually kind of agree with the original because they should replace what women currently say, not because it's a reflection on men.
"Stop interrupting me" replaces "but, but, but..."
"I just said that" replaces "You need to..." for the third time in 23 seconds
"No explanation needed" replaces, "You don't understand me."
Because, let me tell ya, after the daughter pulls that crap on her female friends, she won't have any more.
ha! Truth.
There's ton of sites that have the conventional "how to get a man" with its variants i.e., how to get a man to commit, how to get a man back. Every woman reads these all her life and the theme is: agree, listen. So it's good counter advice to say to girls you have to learn a few times when you will need to "disagree" like:
"Stop interrupting me."
"I just said that."
"No explanation needed."
But are those three expressions really a good idea? There are bores out there and you can't have your whole life taken up by them but what's the best way to handle them once you recognize them? Rudeness, deadly politeness, evasion - which?
I don't see why a simple mention of this well-known (at least among women) problem turned into a flameout or whatever it is called. Perhaps it's some kind of weird joke.
They need to check their goddamn privilege.
I recently told a rad fem to check her Victim Card.
The expression on her face was priceless. Never occurred to her that we can play that card back on her.
Its going to be a fun decade.
Meade: Fem, My eyes are up here.
Whatever you say lawnboy.
"I just said that."
I will cop to using a version of this, at least on email. 'As I mentioned earlier' or some variation of that. But only when I'm pretty irritated.
"Stop interrupting me" replaces "but, but, but..."
IMO, the proper answer to someone who constantly interrupts is a stony glare, perhaps a raised eyebrow and when they finally quit talking a 'are you quite finished?'. You never win a fight with a loudmouth by getting louder.
IMO, the proper answer to someone who constantly interrupts is a stony glare, perhaps a raised eyebrow and when they finally quit talking a 'are you quite finished?'. You never win a fight with a loudmouth by getting louder.
I dound sitting silently does it well. Because when they wait for you to talk, you simply say "Nah, I'm waiting for you to finish" and keep on being silent.
I've done customer service and that worked well with customers who wished to ask questions and yell at the start of an answer.
Much simpler--teach and reward considerate behavior and discourage rudeness. Politeness always gets you much farther, male or female. Is someone being condescending, or interrupting you, or ignoring what you're saying? If so, it says more about them than it does about you, and you can politely disarm them--instead of "stop interrupting" (which is naturally confrontational and will more likely escalate the rudeness) say "please let me finish my point". Instead of "I already told you" simply say "as I noted earlier". It is especially important in written communication where tone cannot be conveyed, but you have more time to compose your words.
Some people are rude--and I'll venture they're also rude to their own gender. Maybe they're ruder to the other gender--but either way, they're likely to encounter more friction and disrespect as a result. Deal with them maturely but firmly, and don't copy their habits.
Challenge sexism? UNC is allowing men in female bathrooms and females in male bathrooms if they feel like the other sex. I thought, especially with all the rapes college campuses have, that having a man in a female bathroom was bad.
I'm glad I'm this age. We used to teach our kids to be wary of this stuff.
How about the all-purpose "bite me"?
Meade said...
Someone else: "Mansplaining is a madeup bullshit word. Anyone using it should not be taken seriously. Its Orwellian."
Ironically, "orwellian" is a madeup bullshit word.
"Orwellian" is in "the dictionary" and "mansplaining" isn't, so, if dictionaries mean anything, mansplaining is a made up bullshit word and Orwellian isn't.
More importantly, "mansplaining" was invented by feminists; the only thing feminists have invented is bullshit words, so it'll still be a bullshit word even if it somehow accidentally gets into dictionaries.
Xyuthhy? Oput prok!
Considering Fen has already exposed himself as having genocidal impulses towards gay people, I won't trust his thoughts on women.
4. Find your place. I cannot be rude.
I love it when a busty woman tells a man "my eyes are up here". I love the shaming tactic.
Fen wonders why no woman will have his sociopathic ass. No doubt he blames it on the "bitches and cunts".
Alex: Considering Fen has already exposed himself as having genocidal impulses towards gay people, I won't trust his thoughts on women.
Gay Nazi's, little snowflake. Like you.
See, its not that they are Gay, its that they are Nazis.
Catch-phrases are very bad advise. They make you look weak and/or rude and/or and stupid. Women best challenge sexism by ignoring it and winning through action. Recently, my science researcher daughter (she works at the world leading institute in her field) was speaking with a couple other women colleagues. One of them asked how come my daughter wasn't intimidated and often successfully stood up to their asshole alpha male boss. The other commented that my daughters previous boss was another first-class asshole, so she must have been used to it. Later, she told me, it dawned on her that she was raised by a first-class asshole to never back down or be intimidated.
It's not a catch-phrase, it's years and years of training and conditioning by not being your kids friend.
Ooopsie... Ann just got spanked by Insty
UPDATE: Ann Althouse says I should be calling for “more speech,” not “consequences.” The very first commenter on her post busts her on this, correctly:
The proper remedy for perjury is not “more speech”.
The proper remedy for filing a false police report is not “more speech”.
The proper remedy for slander is not “more speech”.
The proper remedy for all of the above are “consequences”.
My my, how did our esteemed hostess make such an own goal? Ah yes, she got all emotional this morning, and it affected her reason.
I want to be reminded of Becket's line: sheathe your sword, before you impale yourself with it. But that might be "mansplaining" or somesuch bullshit.
Did Althouse just yank that entire post?
Maybe she should take the day afterall. Precious snowflakes are melting everywhere.
I'm loath to take the approach that girls should be responsible for the world's responses to them
I wonder why? Boys simply take this for granted and react appropriately.
If I were Althouse this would not be a site where people express varied opinions. I would be censoring and removing obvious bullshit. That would be a loss - overall.
"Stop interrupting me."
"I just said that."
"No explanation needed."
Could we maybe work the words "please" and/or "thank you" in there somewhere? Or is politeness for suckers?
There are a few underlying themes in this thread, and are all ironic. One in particular is that our hostess puts a post up, gets a pretty serious response from a commenter, and then she and her husband then pick on that commenter without seriously addressing the comment in question. If you don't want to seriously discuss an issue, then don't post it.
Second - and our hostess has been accused of this before - is that this is a great example of trolling one's own commentariat. I sometimes get a picture of a little kid with an magifying glass trying to shine on ants. That's just ugly, professor.
The situation "I just said that" responsds to is definitely not gendered, at least in my experience. I've had 2 superiors over the years who were quite fond of rephrasing what I'd just explained and presenting it as their own idea--both were women, and the one I truly think believed she had thought my ideas just after I'd spoken (the other was more of a thief). In both cases somone superior to them eventually commented on that habit (one to me privately, one in a meeting), but it certainly was annoying at the time. Of course, when they outrank you, it's a little difficult to call them on it.
Girls just don't seem to be able to shame bosses into promoting them anymore.
But after she was promoted into the direct-investing track, her reviews from other senior partners worsened. She was difficult to work with, they said, and wasn’t succeeding as a junior partner. By 2011, Mr. Doerr was the only senior partner who believed that she should stay on at the firm.
Awww.
I'm loath to take the approach that girls should be responsible for the world's responses to them
Read literally that attitude explains a lot about modern culture, doesn't it?
Hey, what about men in shorts, though? They're not responsible for the world's response to them, so quit fashion-shaming!
I should think it would be better for all concerned if females spoke up instead of letting the male get the idea that his verbal behavior is a good idea.
Oh for heaven's sake ...
My job has expanded, I now have 34 people under my supervision, mostly women and I call bovine excrement.
Male & female behavior does differ but learning & working the differences is much more productive than bitchy little "I am woman, hear me roar" declarations.
I'm one of the few Chief Clerks in my county who holds regular staff meetings because I can and do control the female verbal behavior of interrupting meetings by whispering commentary when someone else is speaking. I recognize that as much as a female verbal tic as much as male-mirroring of one's statement that seems to annoy females into the "I already said that!" response.
Jesus God, but this schtick of "Girls Rule, Boys Drool" is bad enough when heard in junior high, it has no place outside of it.
Why do women need phrases?
Are there no women who do this to men? Are there no men who do this to men?
It seems appropriate that someone could come up with phrases for people. But why women specifically?
Am missing something, or did Althouse delete the post on consequences that should follow the UVA rape hoax?
"Stop interrupting me."
...
"No explanation needed."
So is No explanation needed delivered after patiently waiting for the end of the explanation? Or do you jump in and point that out as soon as you see that they are starting an explanation?
If you do jump right in, should the other person respond with Stop interrupting me?
Am missing something, or did Althouse delete the post on consequences that should follow the UVA rape hoax?
Looks like it.
Ms. Althouse's skin seems to be thinner than a Sizzler steak. I hope Mr. Althouse is properly rewarded for jumping in to protect.
Frankly, I found her 'penis' response to be very childish and sexist.
Then the mockery of Fen (othering)over someone else's typo... what the fuck was that?? Shameful and cheap.
Finally, pulling a post when Insty called out her baloney?
Hmmm.
I understand menopause can cause irrationality and mood swings.
yes, I can be cheap and childish too. See how it helps the discussion
t-man said...
Am missing something, or did Althouse delete the post on consequences that should follow the UVA rape hoax?
You are missing something. You are missing the fact that sometimes blogger acts screwy. Shit happens. Deleting a post seems rather out-of-character for our host, so I assume that is not what happened.
No, no, we all need phrases! My dog needs "Drop phood now!" Jerks need "Don't judge me!"
As a white male, I'm searching for phrases. "I don't feel no ways tired" seems out of my reach, even though the guy who popularized it was male.
Ann Althouse said...That complaint is a concession of the weakness of your side of the debate. Improve your debate.
Debate? When one side is free to cite bogus stats, make ridiculous appeals to emotion, and straw-man nonstop with impunity and the other side is called pro-rape for even daring to speak up at all (no matter how innocuously)how is that a debate?
"I disagree." "You're pro-rape."
"I disagree." "You are a bully, people who are on your side have (allegedly) made threats, so you are a dangerous person who should not be allowed to speak."
"I disagree." "Your attitude helps rapists and is evidence of our rape culture. You need to check your priv, brah."
"I disagree for the following reasons." "You are mansplaining and since you're not oppressed your opinion means nothing--just by giving it you're engaging in verbal assault."
Some debate.
Ignorance Is Bliss is correct.
Ann Althouse said, Nobody said males shouldn't also use those 3 phrases when appropriate.
Why is anyone reading that between the lines? Examine your own thought processes, and don't mistake them for what other people are saying.
OK, so that advice was gender-neutral and had nothing to do with "Alternet: Gender:
10 Words Every Girl Should Learn".
Please. My own thought processes are not in play here. Our current culture's anti-male philosophy is the main vector, and I'd be an idiot not to notice that.
The sex war is devolving. You've got 50 Shades and "rape culture" at the same time.
It's women v. women again, as before.
I'm thinking that it would be far more useful for a girl to learn how to say, "If you really loved me, you'd know what I'm thinking".
.......oh wait!
- Krumhorn
I was a bit of a Daddy's girl and I have three brothers so learning to speak up and assert myself was really never a problem. I worked for many years in the brokerage business and that is no environment for a shrinking violet. The successful women (and men)at my firm were assertive and had a thick skin. The women who ran to the bathroom to cry at the first sign of trouble didn't last long.
Younger women need to learn how to speak in an assertive fashion. Breathy, girlish speech is not appropriate out in the world (maybe it is in bed). I've taught my sons to avoid the "uptalk" crap and to speak in declarative sentences. I would tell a daughter the same.
Simultaneous fronts, my friend.
Young women need to learn how electricity works, how sewage is moved, and how heat is exchanged. Someday, when all the real men are gone, a la Galt perhaps, and the women and their chosen sissy-boys are left, standing knee-deep in raw sewage, these three things will be of the utmost importance. This is the lesson I give to my daughter and grandaughter.
This is a pretty funny thread.
I've got three daughters and none seem to have much trouble. One carries a gun everywhere. One is a bit naive about money but is learning (She is a lefty). The youngest just moved across the country for a new job.
I have taught all to shoot.
And, I can't get a word in edgewise.
Younger women need to learn how to speak in an assertive fashion.
Yeah, that's the thing. Anyone who finds themselves being "mansplained" to- by a man or a woman- is doing that by choice. Unless it's by a boss. Or the President of the United States at a press conference. Then you are kind of a captive audience.
Does anyone here watch The Amazing Race? It's full of women who let the man make decisions and then complain the guy won't listen to her. Very interesting dynamics!
But yeah, people in general, if you want to be heard, make yourself heard. Make yourself interesting. And make sure you are a listener if you want to be listened to.
Actually it feels kind of good when I wake up in the morning, and just lay there pondering the day's schedule, to know that I can be a lot of things, but I can never be a victim.
The professor is hitting below the belt here. Everything is freudian to her. It's so 1920's.
"Freudian"...
"Orwellian"...
OMG, what next? Room 101? Rats?
Funny, these feminists seem to have no problem being assertive.
You are missing the fact that sometimes blogger acts screwy. Shit happens. Deleting a post seems rather out-of-character for our host, so I assume that is not what happened.
It was gone when I made my post at 11:13am. The commenters over at Instapundit noticed it too. You can check their remarks for confirmation.
If I was returning her jackassery with fairness, I would guess Althouse only took the post down so she could add Insty's remarks as an update, and blogger showed it as unavailable.
OTOH, deleting an entire post is not out of character for Althouse. You may have missed the Great Meltdown awhile back, where she trolled her comments section, it backfired, so she closed comments for a period of time.
So its just as likely that Meade got all emotional and deleted the entire post. And Ann restored it only after realizing the Instalaunch would skyline her.
I don't really care either way. I've always viewed Althouse as a champion of free speech, even speech that points out her weaknesses.
But she does occasionally go full totalitarian on us. Usually on the topics of feminism and homosexuality.
But here's something interesting to watch - she's about to spam her page with new content, to push this thread off the page into obscurity.
What does that tell you?
OTOH, deleting an entire post is not out of character for Althouse. You may have missed the Great Meltdown awhile back, where she trolled her comments section, it backfired, so she closed comments for a period of time.
Yes, she closed down comments. Deleting a post is significantly different. It would have been out of character.
Fen said...
But here's something interesting to watch - she's about to spam her page with new content, to push this thread off the page into obscurity.
What does that tell you?
It tells me that...
1) ...you have an amazing gift of foresight being able to tell what the Professor is about to do.
2) ... your gift is not so impressive once you realize it's the same thing she's done every day for over a decade.
3) ...you're an asshole for assigning ill motives to behavior that you well know would have happened even without ill motives.
Fen said...
But here's something interesting to watch - she's about to spam her page with new content, to push this thread off the page into obscurity.
Also note that more than six hours had passed from when she reposted the deleted post until you stated that she was about to spam her page to push the thread into obscurity.
If that was her goal, why wait 6+ hours?
Do you honestly believe what you wrote, or were you intentionally libeling the Professor? If you were libeling her, what consequences should you face?
Ann Althouse has been an exemplar of free speech on her blog. Her blog does not require lack of censorship, but for the most part, she requires it and enforces it, within reason. It can't be easy.
Free speech rules up here, and we should be happy for it.
Ignorance: Do you honestly believe what you wrote, or were you intentionally libeling the Professor? If you were libeling her, what consequences should you face?
Libel? Really?
You had credibility for awhile there. Until you claimed this was libel:
"she's about to spam her page with new content, to push this thread off the page into obscurity."
Now I can imgaine Althouse face-palming, and screaming at you through her monitor "Get off my team!"
Oops I did it again...
Unless you are one of Meade's sockpuppets.
I've always suspected that. A few "regulars" to spice up the comment section, gin up the page hits.
"Snowflakes don't wilt.
Men's penises do however.
Your feelings are showing."
Laslo?
Meade, I'm not standing with Fen. The professor has always been open and inclusive with her blog, sometimes to a fault in my opinion, but I know that she doesn't censor comments unless they are beyond the pale.
However, she does have a penchant for freudianism, and her jab at Fen for a misapplied metaphor was clearly freudian. The whole freudian schtick was old in the 1930's and an insistence that they are valid does not make them so.
As for telling women to speak up for themselves, well, that's good as far as it goes, but I think better advice would be to get women to act like women and not as men. Women can be very successful and persuasive using femininity. Men can be very successful using masculinity. When women try to use masculine responses they generally get negative reactions.
Men who are perceived as small and weak will not be successful at being persuasive just by using certain magic words. The same goes for women. It's not the magic words one uses, but the perception of strength, virility, and competence that matters (in men). For women there is a different translation needed to be persuasive. I claim no expertise, but I think women get a lot farther with smiles and friendliness, which are often taken as signs of weakness in men. Of course, individual differences matter as much or more.
So, when someone points out that women will not succeed simply because they use assertive words, it's just ridiculous to accuse them of having a problem with their penis. That is why the Professor's freudian insult was inappropriate, beyond the obvious point that insults are rarely appropriate.
My wife and I taught our daughter that there were no limits to her interests. Just like we taught our son. Then we helped her learn to swim, play soccer, compete in gymnastics, learn dance, study Tae Kwon Do, raise animals in Future Farmers of America, and take accelerated classes to graduate High School a year early.
She also was taught to use power tools safely and to shoot firearms correctly as a child, lest she be limited by a lack of knowledge about the proper way to approach potentially dangerous learning.
She is about to graduate with a degree in Mechanical Engineering from the best school in the state, with job offers from both government and private industry due to her internships. She will, I am certain, be CEO of her own successful company before 30.
I hope her childhood dream of creating a robot army and conquering the world has been replaced by more kindly concerns, but I will not take any bets on that.
Raise a precious flower, get a precious flower. Raise a strong human being, get a strong human being.
Fen said...
"Unless you are one of Meade's sock puppets."
I'm genuinely flattered. Thanks, Fen.
Fen said...
Libel? Really?
No, not really, you moron. It was a play on the subject of that post, the idea that some speech deserves consequences beyond just more speech.
For what it's worth, I disagree with the Professor on the issue.
P.S. I see that, 9+ hours later, we finally got that flood of new posts that pushed the controversial post a modest amount down the page.
The problem with these phrases is that the target, and everyone else, will react to them. If you assert yourself with someone who interrupts, repeats, and explains, you are labeled as "angry" or "mean." And then you are ignored.
Interpersonal dynamics is complicated. What really matters is status, not what you say. Getting higher status is hard, and how you speak is a tiny part of it. What you say is much less important than who people think you are. Taking on someone of higher status usually doesn't work, and taking on someone of lower status is usually a waste of time. People love to kick those below them, though.
"Young women need to learn how electricity works, how sewage is moved, and how heat is exchanged. Someday, when all the real men are gone, a la Galt perhaps, and the women and their chosen sissy-boys are left, standing knee-deep in raw sewage, these three things will be of the utmost importance. This is the lesson I give to my daughter and grandaughter."
When The Correction happens, with terror and slaughter, Kipling will remain, but until then money will matter, a fact which seems to elude you.
The girls will naturally adapt to preserve themselves for one generation advanced: all it takes when repeated each seceding generation.
Damnit I spelt necessary wrong once and now it auto fills improperly, with only one s where there should be two. Steve Jobs yo.
Because of my failure to educate myself, even after all these years, I now think secede will always be a brain fart of mine, where successive should have been.
Lose an s here, gain one there, it's all good in the end. It all evens out y'all.
The fail auto spelling is done with malice toward none of alls y'all but toward me.
It was damned improper for them to do that to me, the persons who obey only Godwin's Law of auto-fill.
I have never had a problem with being interrupted, ignored, or mansplained, and I am a gyno-American.
I've also never resorted to dick-shriveling references in a debate or professional context.
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