He has even gotten used to being denounced as a rapist on fliers and in a rally in the university’s quadrangle. Though his name is not widely known beyond the Morningside Heights campus, Mr. Nungesser is one of America’s most notorious college students. His reputation precedes him. His notoriety is the result of a campaign by Emma Sulkowicz, a fellow student who says Mr. Nungesser raped her in her dorm room two years ago. Columbia cleared him of responsibility in that case, as well as in two others that students brought against him. Outraged, Ms. Sulkowicz began carrying a 50-pound mattress wherever she went on campus, to suggest the painful burden she continues to bear....He plays the bullying card.
He says that he is innocent, and that the same university that found him “not responsible” has now abdicated its own responsibility, letting mob justice overrule its official procedures. The mattress project is not an act of free expression, he adds; it is an act of bullying, a very public, very personal and very painful attack designed to hound him out of Columbia. And it is being conducted with the university’s active support. “There is a member of the faculty that is supervising this,” he said. “This is part of her graduation requirement.”
২২ ডিসেম্বর, ২০১৪
It's his mattress too.
"He has gotten used to former friends crossing the street to avoid him."
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245 এর 1 – থেকে 200 আরও নতুন» সবচেয়ে নতুন»If the genders were reversed, DOJ and Columbia would see it as a clear Title IX violation...
He has a point. It's more like harrassment, which isn't protected speech.
He is handling this wrong. He should troll her back. Walk around campus with a billboard with her picture and an appropriate caption, maybe "Great piece of ass, but not worth it."
Could be a contest. Best way to fight back against SJW's.
"“This is part of her graduation requirement.”"
Is that true? If so, I think he has a point. I don't think lugging around mattresses should be done for credit. That's a bit nuts.
Otherwise, he is probably better off ignoring it.
"Plays the bullying card"?
Seriously? He survives the ridiculously low bar that schools use in their kangaroo courts for investigating sexual assault on campus, which pretty much means proves he was being falsely accused.
SHE should be kicked out of school, and he should sue her for defamation.
"Having avoided contact with each other for two years, the two adversaries are scheduled to graduate in the same ceremony in May. Ms. Sulkowicz said she may bring her mattress onstage and drop it right there."
So everyone graduating will have their day turned into being supporting bit players for her dramatic finale. I'm sure she will notify the appropriate news crews to document her righteousness; MSNBC awaits.
I am Laslo.
"Though his name is not widely known beyond the Morningside Heights campus..."
Well, the NYT took care of that.
When felons with long rap sheets finally killed someone, Bob Grant used to say that they had long "served notice on society" that they need to be locked away.
Emma has similarly served notice. Men take notice.
I am not Laslo.
Well, bullying or not it seems clear that he is in a hostile environment.
He might not be able to sue her for defamation because he can no more prove she's lying than she can prove he raped her. However, he ought to have a case against her and the school for harassment.
Of course, maybe there's no need--all this publicity is just making her look unhinged, and the school feckless and weak, and he's likely to end up with far more sympathy from the general public. Sometimes you just have to let the nuts show everyone what they are.
Like "Jackie" at UVa, Ms. Emma Sulkowicz clearly needs psychological counseling. A lot of it.
I do like Tank's idea, though I suspect that AustinRoth is correct from a legal perspective. I'd surely like to be on that jury.
You play what is dealt you.
She plays the he-cannot-be-a-victim-which-means-I-assume-he-is-guilty-hey-who-needs-evidence-you-see-the-shirt-he-is-wearing card.
The "mattress-carrying" is indeed her senior ART thesis. Which, in addition to everything else, shows the sad state of art and art education.
Cynically, what Mr. Nungesser is dealt is a corruption of language, the extension of the term "bullying" to include some malleable concept of psychology abuse. He uses that to fight another corruption of language, the extension of the term "rape" to include some malleable concept of sexual affront.
It does seem concerning to me that Mr. Nungesser has had multiple complaints.
College Freshman Checklist:
calculator
computer
desk lamp
ethernet cord
extension cord
power strip
printer
printer paper
backpack
attorney
Good for him. Maybe. If he is innocent, then he's being bullied and not just Ms. Sulkowicz, but the University itself, should be held to account.
I think Drill Sgt hit it out of the park from the get-go.
You go to College to get an education. The man in this case is really really getting one.
@Austin Roth is correct, he is being defamed. In San Diego, we also have a moral panic around campus sexual assault. Media reports eighteen sexual assaults this year, but just one arrest. And that case has fallen apart.
Plays the bullying card
This is a game?
I have sons. It's not a game to them.
This is a public mania, a mob. I took my son to his school and heard a mom ask the school police how they were going to protect her daughter from the rape epidemic.
Crazy talk. People really do go crazy sometimes. They are crazy about campus rape and police brutality right now.
I've had to life my mattress a few times to set the bed. And matresses are heavy. Why would you choose to carry Around something that is so hard to carry around?
Go back to separate dorms for men and women. Have visiting hours but no overnights.
Why isn't anyone advocating that?
Because it would solve the problem?
Why not carry around a full size cross like Jeaus did if you want to play the martyr. And then maybe crucify yourself every night.
The self imposed burden she forces herself to carry. That ahe is inflicting this in herself suggests a mental instability of some sort
"College Freshman Checklist"
You may be on to something, Meade. To that I would add a DIY rape kit. The 'survivor' would collect evidence and forward it to the campus Title IX coordinator. It would be up to the 'rapist' to provide an affidavit of consent.
Though his name is not widely known beyond the Morningside Heights campus, ...
His surname will always belong to one of France's WW I heros, Charles Nungesser, who disappeared in 1927. I've known that name since I was a boy, obsessing over Nieuport 17's.
I get fundraising calls from Columbia, but I don't contribute. I tell the students that they would be better off in a different school.
Who is the Columbia faculty member actively supporting all this bullying?
It is bullying, as much by Columbia as Sulkowitz.
Columbia President Bollinger says “[t]he law and principles of academic freedom allow students to express themselves on issues of public debate; at the same time, our legal and ethical responsibility is to be fair and impartial in protecting the rights and accommodating the concerns of all students in these matters.”
Yet their rules prohibit the defendant from asking questions of the complainant at the hearings. All questions are asked by the "specially trained" persons on the hearing panel. In addition the hearing panels regularly impose gag orders and secrecy requirements. Woe to the student who questions their procedures, or speaks publicly about the matter.
Bollinger has declined to address this particular case himself.
It is hard to believe that the weight of the extensive apparatus no in place at schools like Columbia is not used to pressure the accused, especially under current near panic conditions about the isle. This is bullying. And Bolinger is bullshitting.
We don't, of course, have the information to know what really happened. However, if Columbia has deemed him "not responsible" for any act of sexual assault, it should then warn those accusing him to stop their actions against him on campus, or face sanctions. (Off campus, they're free to do as they wish.)
Well Ms. Sulkowicz has demonstrated one thing--she's a mattress back. I don't think she quite realizes that implication.
I'm guessing the mattress is for if he ever drops by again.
He is playing the bullied card. And it sounds to me like he is justified in that University which cleared him is now standing idly by and allowing what passes for due process to be undermined by what amounts to political theatre.
I recall the first time all of the employees where I worked underwent corporation wide sensitivity training in the early 90s about the the time of Clarence Thomas hearings.
We were asked for feedback (what a different time as that would amount to a dialog of sorts) and I either said or wrote "This policy is so vague all you have done is hand a weapon to the prudes, the vengeful and the unstable." It was true then and it's true now. I suspect Ms Sulkowicz is a politically motivated example of vengeful and unstable. In fact, I've come to the conclusion that you can't be SJW without belonging in one or both of those categories. Forensic evidence and due process mean nothing to them. Volume and intensity are all, content is nothing.
Perhaps Ann could explain this to me.
If she is getting credit from the university for publicly accusing him of rape, how is that not the university contributing to a hostile environment?
Follow up. If the university is actively creating a hostile environment for him, why isn't that bullying?
Yes, it's true, I'm playing the please explain that card.
I think what Mr Nussinger needs to play is the lawsuit card.
This pussy needs to buck-up. C'mon Nancy-boy, be a man! It's not like you've been accused of shooting an unarmed Black youth. It's just rape.
"Emma Sulkowicz says it's easiest to carry the mattress with four people. ... Sulkowicz — a visual arts major — has turned her senior thesis into a performance art piece that blends campus activism and personal expression.
...
While she is not allowed to ask for help to carry the mattress under the rules of her performance art piece, she can accept help if it's offered, student newspaper The Columbia Daily Spectator reports."
Women SJWs and male progressives need to get it that there is a certain type of functional crazy woman that glories in victim drama and they are all too common in far too many men's experiences with dating and LTRs to discount. They will tell the vilest lies to gain sympathy as well as social and legal advantage.
False accusations of vile crimes are routinely made by women in divorce court, simply to gain this advantage. That glaring example informs us as to the possible frequency of false rape allegations made by campus women.
But, we're supposed to ignore all that real experience and boundless examples, because "women don't lie about that", which is such obvious bullshit only laughter should be the response.
And it won't change until we start throwing women in jail for telling these vile lies.
RE: "While she is not allowed to ask for help to carry the mattress under the rules of her performance art piece, she can accept help if it's offered,"
Is the mattress like the American flag, and if it touches the ground it is proper to burn it?
I am Laslo.
Stations of the Cross?
Has her own Wiki:
Sulkowicz's protest has been compared to the Stations of the Cross and to the Scarlet Letter. Roberta Smith, writing in The New York Times, described the piece as "strict and lean, yet inclusive and open ended, symbolically laden yet drastically physical."[11] Artnet called it "one of the most important artworks of the year," while Jerry Saltz named it the best art show of 2014.[12][13]
Performance artist Marina Abramovic has said that she "really want[s] to meet" Sulkowicz and that she was curious about what Sulkowicz's next work would be.[7] Sulkowicz has received the National Organization for Women's Susan B. Anthony Award and the Feminist Majority Foundation's Ms. Wonder Award for the piece.[14][15]
No Wiki for Paul......
jr565 said...
Why would you choose to carry Around something that is so hard to carry around?
It is a metaphor for the burden of rape that she carries with her as well.
Of course, she can set the mattress down and get on with her life any time she wants. So I guess the metaphor is accurate.
Nobody cares about him. Definitely not the university leaders or academics. Now is the time to get white men back for all those dead white men.
There are three women making similar claims of rape by this individual. This seems to be a higher standard of evidence than was present in the rape claims against Bill Clinton.
AReasonableMan said...
There are three women making similar claims of rape by this individual. This seems to be a higher standard of evidence than was present in the rape claims against Bill Clinton.
Why are you bringing Bill Cosby into this thread?
The mattress in my dorm bunk were pretty small. Not an easy thing to carry, but is' not a Serta XL King. This whole thing stinks. On one hand, you've got 3 complaints against the guy. On the other, they were all within the same few days and there seems to be strong evidence of collusion between the 3 women. And on the gripping hand, in no case did the college find the young man guilty without later reversing that finding. First impression of all that; the young man was getting some action at the time, and tried hitting on a group of three women who maybe were friends with each other, or inside the same social matrix. He had some consensual encounters, maybe an awkward approach or makeout session (that fell somewhere short of ACTUAL sexual assault or molestation), and these three women, feeling played, decide to exact some revenge and make the guy squirm. I just don't see how such a pro-female bias on campus could generate no actual guilty verdicts if there was even an inkling that something truly untoward had happened.
Again, that far too many women LIE about such things EVERY DAY to gain sympathy, as well as social and legal advantage, CANNOT be ignored when assessing such accusations.
The school is giving her credit for an "art" project about an incident that it says didn't happen.
Ah, the where there's smoke there's fire argument. I've always been partial to the comeback, attributed to JFK, to wit, where there's smoke you'll usually find somebody running a smoke making machine.
It sucks to say, but when a college rape accusation makes it into the news, my initial position is to presume that the woman is lying. I'm afraid George Will was correct about the desirability of victimhood status.
It's a shame, because I believe there's plenty of unreported rape and sexual assault on campus, which of course has been facilitated by a loose student culture of booze and (supposedly) no-strings sex. The question in my mind is what responsibility the college should have for this. If colleges are going in loco parentis, then the freedom of students should be accordingly restricted to prevent assaults. No booze on campus, no co-ed dorms, etc.
Federal regulation through Title IX is somewhat irreconcilable with the notion of adult freedom on campus.
Meade, I think you forgot the chastity belt on your list!
By the way, the fact that she's an art student and is making this into an art exhibition makes me suspicious. Artists can be frustratingly loose about the truth, and unaccountable too. Nothing gets in the way of expression, of "their truth" -- not even the real, literal, boring truth.
Forget the damage this does to this man. This young woman is saying something important. Let's admire her work and let the art wash over us.
Re: AReasonableMan:
There are three women making similar claims of rape by this individual. This seems to be a higher standard of evidence than was present in the rape claims against Bill Clinton.
Except that the university's internal processes -- which are (a) strongly biased in favour of the accuser and (b) use a very loose definition of "rape" -- found him "not responsible." I can't see Sulkowicz's claims as plausible if she couldn't even convince a sympathetic factfinder. That's like failing to get a conviction out of Judge Jeffreys or Roland Freisler.
Go back to separate dorms for men and women. Have visiting hours but no overnights.
Why isn't anyone advocating that?
Because it would solve the problem?
Because there isn't a real rape problem, there is just a crazy overreaction problem. And separate dorms wouldn't solve that.
Here's another thought: if this individual had a reputation for getting into fights, say, after a night of bar-hopping, and a couple students complained, "he punched me in the face," what would happen?
Would the bloodied-nose students call the police? Would they demand he be expelled? Or would this be simply a matter of "you can't criminalize all bad behavior"?
Alternatively, what if he was never violent, but had a reputation for cheating on the women he was dating, or engaging in similar behavior that's immoral but not illegal?
So this chick -- lady, woman, girl, broad, I'll let you make the call -- she accuses a guy of rape. The case is dropped, but she decides to make an artistic statement by -- get this -- carrying a mattress wherever she goes. I'm assuming that -- even as an artist -- she can't just make a painting of the mattress -- I mean, "Guernica" has already been done...
You know, maybe Van Gogh carried his ear around for awhile, showing it to people, then getting frustrated that no one wanted to see the ear anymore -- once you've seen it, you've seen it, it doesn't do any tricks or anything -- but if he stopped carrying the ear people would then be asking "why aren't you carrying your ear anymore, Van Gogh?," and if you say "I got tired of it, it was inconvenient to always be carrying it, it made it tough to get my wallet out of my pants without dropping it" you pretty much undercut your statement. Artists, painting themselves into corners: go figure...
Me, I'm not quite sure what she means by this: was the mattress a complicit partner? What about the pillow-case -- was it not involved? Cause if it was, it seems that would be much easier to lug around; hell, you could carry your books in it, even -- art that is useful: THAT would be a statement...
Now, if I was the guy, I'd be carrying around an inflatable sex doll. A lot lighter than a mattress, to begin with. Someone asks me about it, I say 'she didn't say no, either..."
I am not Lenny Bruce.
I am Laslo.
It's a shame, because I believe there's plenty of unreported rape and sexual assault on campus,
This blanket, unproven assumption is the entire problem with the "rape culture" propaganda bullshit.
This flawed assumption posits that when ordinary young men drink around young women, they morph into uncontrollable rapists and cads. Sans any actual evidence to boot.
"He survives the ridiculously low bar that schools use in their kangaroo courts for investigating sexual assault on campus, which pretty much means proves he was being falsely accused."
I think you should read more about this case. He was allowed to reference a video that supposedly exonerated him. But she wasn't allowed to show the video and prove him wrong. The previous investigations - where other women accused him of doing the exacty same thing -- could not be mentioned. The entire procedure was a ridiculous farce where her accusations were not taken seriously at all.
"Brando said:
He might not be able to sue her for defamation because he can no more prove she's lying than she can prove he raped her. However, he ought to have a case against her and the school for harassment.
Of course, maybe there's no need--all this publicity is just making her look unhinged, and the school feckless and weak, and he's likely to end up with far more sympathy from the general public. Sometimes you just have to let the nuts show everyone what they are.
12/22/14, 8:06 AM"
Wish I could agree with you but this is part of Little Miss Outraged Artistic Snowflake's resume. She will recycle and polish and refine this sorry episode, and leverage it into a shiny career in feminist activism, a tenured professorship, or a life in politics. The guy, meanwhile, will be at best forgotten, at worst rendered untouchable.
I see that some of the commenters have forgotten that false accusations of rape and sexual assault rarely, IF EVER happen.
I read that dozens of times, so it must be true.
He should announce that he is gay, and/or trans and/or bi-sexual and feels bullied and threatened by these insensitive attacks. Then they might stop.
Either this guy raped her, or he didn't, but either way this matter should have been dealt with by the police and courts. If she wasn't willing to take this to the police, then shame on her and she needs to shut up and drop it. If she did take it to the police and they didn't investigate, or the prosecutors did not find enough to go forward with, then either the evidence just wasn't there or the authorities were derelict in their duties. If the former, then sorry, that's how justice systems work. If the latter, then make that the point of your protests--that police or prosecutors are not taking serious crimes seriously enough.
But this--trying to harass and defame a guy outside the legal system--is simply no way for a free society to function. We have activists with no way of knowing what happened going around meting out a form of street justice and mob mentality. This is a dangerous and rotten thing.
The SJWs may not think much of the rule of law, or the rights of the accused when the accused is not one of their favored victims. But they do far greater damage to a system that they should be defending when they do this.
The entire procedure was a ridiculous farce where her accusations were not taken seriously at all.
Your position is that because she said it, it must have happened.
Maybe they didn't find her credible. The other women's statements are hearsay and there is nothing that backs them up, like, say an actual report to police or campus authority.
I know that's inconvenient to the "rape culture" bullshit of campus feminists and their credulous bootlickers, but there it is.
The Feds are providing cash for body cams for police all across the nation. Why not a body cam for every undergraduate. That would record much of the preliminaries. Then just point the camera at the bed during the final activities. The undergrads would not have access to the raw footage. It would all go into a highly secure database to be retrieved only in the event of a complaint. Sony could administer the database.
Just be sure to leave the lights on.
Alternative: roving videographers on every campus, on call at a moments notice.
Crazy. She is crazy. The university is permitting a deranged student to harass another student based on a false story. That violates Title IX.
The way she still seeks attention would lead one to believe she cried "rape" when he gave her no attention.
I am happy my boys are out of college.
Mike said...
"He survives the ridiculously low bar that schools use in their kangaroo courts for investigating sexual assault on campus, which pretty much means proves he was being falsely accused."
I think you should read more about this case. He was allowed to reference a video that supposedly exonerated him. But she wasn't allowed to show the video and prove him wrong. The previous investigations - where other women accused him of doing the exacty same thing -- could not be mentioned. The entire procedure was a ridiculous farce where her accusations were not taken seriously at all.
Mike, your description of the process at COLUMBIA set my Bullshit Meter off at Code Red. It is not credible.
This blanket, unproven assumption is the entire problem with the "rape culture" propaganda bullshit.
This flawed assumption posits that when ordinary young men drink around young women, they morph into uncontrollable rapists and cads. Sans any actual evidence to boot.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I firmly reject the "rape culture" bullshit. But that's not to say that there isn't unreported rape and sexual assault.
I don't know if it's any better or worse on campus to be a woman between the ages of 18 and 22. My hunch is that it's about the same; the statistics seem to be all over the map.
Ambiguous drunken sex happens with some frequency on campus. I'm not one to think of the "she was drunk and didn't affirmatively say yes" cases as actual rape. But it wouldn't surprise me if in many instances the woman utters no at some late stage - which of course removes the ambiguity, transforming the consensual encounter into rape.
I'm also inclined to believe that incapacitated rape happens (a la Animal House).
I remember college well. When you spend so much of it in a drunken stupor, facts become malleable, memories fade and distort, and believe it or not, people still have shame and insecurities. It doesn't surprise me one bit that many young women can be convinced after the fact that they were raped.
Re: Sgt Ted:
This flawed assumption posits that when ordinary young men drink around young women, they morph into uncontrollable rapists and cads. Sans any actual evidence to boot.
We~ll, hold on a minute there. The evidence for an actual epidemic of unreported "rape" is thin on the ground, but caddishness, among young men? Do you really think young men at elite universities are gentlemen? I have only a small, anecdotal window into these things, but my perception is that caddishness is widespread.
While I'm pretty sure that Mr. Nungesser did not rape anyone, seeing as he was cleared by the Witchfinders General themselves, the fact of three women complaining does make me suspect that he may, alas, be a bit of a cad.
It's a shame, because I believe there's plenty of unreported rape and sexual assault on campus,
This blanket, unproven assumption is the entire problem with the "rape culture" propaganda bullshit.
SGTTed, I think there are a number of unreported assaults (not as large as 1/5, but enough to know a few people in your person circle who may have been raped) and a number of false reports of assaults that didn't happen. Both can easily be true.
But the unreported assaults are not the people running around two years after the fact trying to make accusations, and they shouldn't be classed the same.
The bullying charge is like a defensive move in chess. She has been attacking with her queen, and he is parrying with a rook. (another game analogy)
"The school is giving her credit for an "art" project about an incident that it says didn't happen."
Well, fiction is a form of art, isn't it?
I ran across what I thought was such a good comment that I am copypasting it in its entirety below. I trust the original author will not mind. (http://www.unz.com/isteve/understanding-the-personal-psychology-of-rapegate/#comment-792470). Again, none of what appears below is mine, but to this old coot in his 50's, the words ring true.
"Why is there any issue of rape culture on any campus? Because about 20-25 years ago, the full force of the sexual liberation movement began to arrive on college campus. It wasn’t just the students who had free love, like in the 60s. It was that every college was staffed by administrators who believed in it, and how great sex and drugs had been for their own “college experience”. So they destroyed any social mores that would protect men and women from each other.
"By the 1990s, young women going off to college had *not been told by any generations above them that men are different than women. They didn’t know that men REALLY want sex. They didn’t know that what a woman might think of as a platonic interaction was likely NOT that for a man. They didn’t know that their own clothing, looks, speech, and behaviors, might be alluring, let alone provocative.
"By 2000, the last gasp of anyone defining male-female interactions at college was gone–BU president John Silber held on til 1996 (and as chancellor til 2002). AFter 2000, basically all campuses did away single sex dorms, and mostly with single sex floors. Suites were co-ed. Bathrooms co-ed. You couldn’t find a way to be in a situation where sexual interactions could be self-policed at all. I am Charlotte Simmons was not ahead of its time (as most Wolfe books are). By 2000, women didn’t even know that “men might behave boorishly, so you should not put yourself into situations that cause you discomfort.” Men and women were the same, right?
"Instead, they knew that women were supposed to be just as comfortable as men with sex, and with all kinds of sex, and that sex was really unrelated to relationships. And they knew that they had NO RIGHT to be uncomfortable with this idea, so there really was no way to regret any intimate interaction with a man–because it was all supposed to be a-ok, no emotional pain, no confusion, just loads of rutting for fun.
"But there remained ONE way to be allowed to feel pain and regret and confusion about sexual experiences–if the woman had been raped. So women, finding that their typical weekly (if not daily) interactions with men led to overtures and passes that they had no articulatable reason to reject, no principle on which to say “no”, found that they had even more pain and regret—and rape has become the name for those unwanted sexual experiences.
"and they may truly not be consensual, in the sense that the woman, BEING UTTERLY NOT LIKE A MAN, does not want sex the way a man does.
"But the woman can’t notice this, and even if she does, lacks a vocabulary for it.
"There is no vocabulary left for a young woman who wishes to have sex only in a deeply committed, loving, monogamous relationship. There is only one word of vocabulary left for the feelings of pain, sadness, loneliness, or humiliation after a sexual experience: rape."
well, ok, todays college men aren't the gentlemen of yor, but neither are the women the ladies of yor.
"Drunken Cads", perhaps, but also active in this dynamic are drunken, loose women, who would be the "sluts".
And, AGAIN, the many women who engage in attention seeking, victim status and social and legal advantage through false accusations undercuts the idea of huge amounts of underreported cases or the "you know someone who was sexually assaulted" meme, because maybe that person you know is lying about it for the above reasons.
"He plays the bullying card."
How much does one have to endure before responding to an adversary?
The first blog response? The first nasty comment? How about somebody walking around every day calling you a rapist?
What's the threshold for being allowed to use the bully card?
She could make her claims, on oath or affirmation, before a magistrate.
If she cannot "prove" those statements as true, she should be prosecuted for "Perjury".
He says that he asked Columbia to let him study abroad his senior year, or actually at home since he is from Germany, but the university wouldn't grant a waiver to let him do that. That put's his presence on campus squarely on the university.
I'm reminded of the scene in The Social Network where President Larry Summers explains to the Winklevoss twins that students have a duty to the university, but not to each other, and suggests they avail themselves of the legal system. Of course, the Winklevoss twins did get their pound of flesh.
What she alleges is forced anal sex. I will point out to the traditionalists that for that traditionally consent is no defense.
What is alleged is an offense against honor, and under the old honor codes and apology would not do, a physical blow must be answered with blood.
German university students traditionally (up until 1914) resolved these honor disputes by dueling with swords. But perhaps that would not be fair in this case, as the accuser is reported to be on the varsity fencing team.
She chose the mattress as the weapon. And he's answered by giving an interview to the New York Times. But he did it during the term break which looks a little cowardly.
I suppose she might have put the mattress away for the spring term, but she can't really do that now, can she?
As ye sow, so shall ye rape.
"If the genders were reversed, DOJ and Columbia would see it as a clear Title IX violation."
Seriously. Imagine him going around campus with her picture, and a caption saying "Sleeps with guys, lies about rape." Does anyone believe that he wouldn't be hauled before some university tribunal and charged with harassment? I imagine the words "safe zone" would figure prominently in the indictment.
Paco Wové:
"There is no vocabulary left for a young woman who wishes to have sex only in a deeply committed, loving, monogamous relationship. There is only one word of vocabulary left for the feelings of pain, sadness, loneliness, or humiliation after a sexual experience: rape."
Exactly.
My sister-in-law belatedly regrets her wild sexcapades when she was a coed at Brown in the seventies. She regrets that she believed casual sex would be liberating and acted on that belief again and again. In the seventies and eighties no coed called unfulfilling sex rape. Now they do.
"Paco Wove said...
I ran across what I thought was such a good comment that I am copypasting it in its entirety below. I trust the original author will not mind...
@10:05"
Boy, does that comment just nail it! It feels exactly right: there is enormous emotional energy attached to sexual relations (sorry, that's just how we're mostly wired) and if it can't be channeled into serious intimacy, it doesn't vanish. It gets channeled into whatever's left. If the only channel for regret and anger over being treated shabbily, or for the simple fear of feeling abandoned, is to cry Rape, then guess what? There will be an outpouring of such cries. Usually by the least stable/most vulnerable people; who often are taken advantage of by the most caddish sexual adventurers.
Result? The current disaster. We can see the local manifestation as Rape, but it is indeed part of a Rape Culture, but not quite the one the feminists have characterized. It's an impoverished culture, lacking in serious moral purpose, where the only two poles are Fun Times and Rape.
And, AGAIN, the many women who engage in attention seeking, victim status and social and legal advantage through false accusations undercuts the idea of huge amounts of underreported cases or the "you know someone who was sexually assaulted" meme, because maybe that person you know is lying about it for the above reasons.
But when you are talking about a person you actually know, you are better able to judge their truthfulness. So if a friend tells me, in confidence, that something happened, then I believe them based on their past behavior and actions. I would say that that is perfectly reasonable.
You don't believe that no rapes happen, right? So, why wouldn't you believe that there are occasions where it does happen that aren't reported officially?
My point is, the people who run around making false accusations are NOT the same people who are telling friends about things that happened in confidence. I can understand why you would be skeptical of public declarations that have not be verified, I am too, but that doesn't mean that nothing ever happens either.
It's funny.
When I was changing my bed sheets this morning this story came to mind for some inexplicable reason other than me changing the sheets as I do weekly.
I wondered if this girl was still lugging that around.
If the rocket scientist could be compelled to apologize for wearing a distasteful shirt, could this woman be compelled to desist on the grounds of inflicting aesthetical distress upon the environment the students pay for.
I guess the accused would have to respond more aggressively by gathering signatures or something.
If the burden of her accusation is so bad you have to move.
If he hasn't moved, more aggressively, it's because it's tolerable, so far.
Here is one more thought. Forget that this is about rape or sex. Just imagine a rational actor facing risks and uncertainties from a contemplated course of action. One choice involves a few minutes of confused physical pleasure followed by a lifetime of waiting for the phone to ring because the partner in the act has decided to rewrite the deal.
The other choice is not to get involved. At all. Just in case.
That's the climate we've created.
Paco,
While that comment raises some good points as to campus sexual culture, the main problem that is now part and parcel of that culture is the notion that women aren't ever to take responsibility for their sexual choices, to include the negative emotional ramifications.
It also assumes that no males ever regret sex the next day when they sober up.
When men wake up with someone they never would have slept with sober, jokes are made along the lines of "Coyote Ugly" and "Beer Goggles".
When women do this on campus, they are encouraged to duck their own responsibility while drunk, with the claim that they cannot have consented to the sex, therefor it was rape or sexual assault. Any discussion of females being held accountable for their sexual choices while drunk is being dismissed as "victim blaming" and "rape denial". When, really, they should be subject to the same "coyote ugly" and beer goggles" jokes and wisecracking.
Left Bank,
http://youtu.be/vc7_NEinAjI
??
You don't believe that no rapes happen, right? So, why wouldn't you believe that there are occasions where it does happen that aren't reported officially?
The unreported number is an unknowable number. I do believe that some are not reported, but again, that number is inherently unknowable. Any claims otherwise are speculation and guessing at best, or are calculated, sexist political lies at worse.
The reason I am skeptical in these cases, like "mattress artiste" is because of the very specific "war on women" and "rape culture" anti-male propaganda operations by campus feminists that are telling lies about the frequency of sex crimes on campus in pursuit of partisan political goals.
What also makes skeptical is these "rape culture" advocates continued refusal to address false accusations as well as continuing to specifically champion those women, like "Jackie" in the Rolling Stone fabrication, that have obviously LIED about being raped, all to advance their cause.
Sexual assault frequency is 6 in 1000 on campuses. As long as advocates hold to the claim 1 in 5, they don't deserve the time of day. They have no credibility.
I attended Columbia and love the school. But if he beat a sexual assualt charge at Columbia, he's likely innocent. And think about why. If the standard is a proponderance of the evidence, then it was much harder for him to prove himself innocent rather than not-guilty. I think he has a harrassment beef. She can carry the mattress all day long on the streets of Morningside. But when the school allows her to do it on campus, I think the school is creating a hostile learning environment. Her claim was adjudicated by the school - so she made a complaint and reviewed due process.
But when you are talking about a person you actually know, you are better able to judge their truthfulness. So if a friend tells me, in confidence, that something happened, then I believe them based on their past behavior and actions. I would say that that is perfectly reasonable.
And sometimes, it turns out that they were lying to you in order gain sympathy from a close friend and were utterly convincing in their lies. There are two sides to every story and I've been burned that way myself. So, no thanks.
And again, the frequency of otherwise seemingly credible women who tell wild lies, even under oath in court, about such to gain advantage and sympathy cannot be ignored, even with close confidential friends.
It is why I hold such to the standards of the law. It is the only way to be truly fair.
This flawed assumption posits that when ordinary young men drink around young women, they morph into uncontrollable rapists and cads.
The entire Muslim culture strikes me as being based on that assumption. ~15% of the human race
NB: Lesbians never charge women lovers with raping them . But they charge rape at men for being sub-humans that wasted their time soley for the man's pleasure.
Does "Jackie" walk around UVA with shards of glass on her back?
Lou Gehrig went to Columbia.
The iron horse is long dead. No self-respecting young man would attend this girl's school.
It does seem concerning to me that Mr. Nungesser has had multiple complaints.
Except for the fact that the university, even with its anti-male bias, has found him innocent of al the complaints.
There are three women making similar claims of rape by this individual. This seems to be a higher standard of evidence than was present in the rape claims against Bill Clinton.
Except most of the women Clinton raped never got their day in court like these ladies did, and AFAIK, none of them have produced a dress with semen on it.
While I'm pretty sure that Mr. Nungesser did not rape anyone, seeing as he was cleared by the Witchfinders General themselves, the fact of three women complaining does make me suspect that he may, alas, be a bit of a cad.
It has been my experience that being a bit of a cad is a very successful mating strategy, while being a nice guy fails.
Nungessers is the name of the confluence of roads that meet at the Hudson and Bergen county line at North Bergen and Fairview in northeastern New Jersey.
I knew the name was familiar. I lived five minutes walk from there 08, 09.
There are three women making similar claims of rape by this individual. This seems to be a higher standard of evidence than was present in the rape claims against Bill Clinton.
Ha ha ha ha! One of my favorite things about ARM is his total confindence in his ignorant opinions. Well to be honest, a lot of the women only claimed sexual assault.
"Plays the bullying card"
He has a right to defend himself. Liberals!
"there is enormous emotional energy attached to sexual relations ... and if it can't be channeled into serious intimacy, it doesn't vanish."
Yup. Forgive me for yet another cut'n'paste:
"A youth boiling with hormones will wonder why he should not give full freedom to his sexual desires; and if he is unchecked by custom, morals, or laws, he may ruin his life before he matures sufficiently to understand that sex is a river of fire that must be banked and cooled by a hundred restraints if it is not to consume in chaos both the individual and the group."
—Will and Ariel Durant.
The "hundred restraints" are pretty much gone; now our young are consigned to the resulting chaos.
"Except most of the women Clinton raped never got their day in court like these ladies did, and AFAIK, none of them have produced a dress with semen on it."
And what about all the women he probably abused who had the good sense to not come forward with their stories given the adverse treatment they would have received from the Clinton loving liberal media.
Perhaps a poster of a mattress with a caption of "Is the Girl Scout motto, "Be Prepared"?
Better yet how about derisive laughter every time this artist walks by. If quizzed you explain that you certainly were not dismissing rape culture, but were commenting at what passes for performance art today.
"Mr. Nungesser said the charges against him, all filed within days of one another, were the result of collusion. The three women said in interviews with The New York Times that they decided to take action when they heard about one another’s experiences."
"The university dropped the intimate partner violence charge after that accuser, saying she was exhausted by the barrage of questions, stopped answering emails over summer vacation. And in Ms. Sulkowicz’s case, the hearing panel found that there was not enough evidence. Her request for an appeal was denied."
"(Ms. Sulkowicz did not press criminal charges, a lengthy process that she said would be too draining, but she and several other women filed gender discrimination complaints against Columbia with the Education Department.)"
How childish. She literally made a federal case out of it.
Gahrie said...
none of them have produced a dress with semen on it.
Never any suggestion that Lewinsky was raped by Clinton. She seemed to be the more forward one. He was an idiot to get involved, disgracing himself and the office, but it was not rape or anything like rape.
I associate bullying with physical overpowering.
Unless Althouse is saying that the argument represented by the young woman lugging the matters is weak and needs to be protected by affirmatively acting on it's behalf.
Althouse is saying the young woman is weak?
If she is being bullied, that is the implication.
ARM,
Juanita Broderick was the one who accused Clinton of rape. Kathleen Wiley was the one who accused him of groping her. And Paula Jones was the one who accused Clinton of exposing himself to her.
The questions for people are usually, do you belJeb's these accusations. And if not, why not.
Some people seem to think that an accusation is enough because sexual assault survivors do not make up accusations.
The creepiest thing about Bill Clinton's sexual adventurism was the power imbalance. He went after women who were less wealthy, less educated, or emotionally vulnerable. Nungesser should hire Sydney Blumenthal to research his accusers' pasts and threaten to reveal embarrassing info if they don't back off.
Terry,
Predators prey on the weak and powerless.
He was an idiot to get involved, disgracing himself and the office, but it was not rape or anything like rape.
There is a theory among feminists that the disparity of power between them, and the age disparity, denied her the ability to consent.
I happen to agree with you that it was not rape, it was workplace sexual harassment.
There are more women than Juanita Broaddrick and Monica Lewinski, you know, or don't you know?
"Ms. Sulkowicz says that in August 2012, during an otherwise consensual encounter, Mr. Nungesser hit her, pinned her down and, despite her protests, raped her. Another woman accused him of following her up the stairs at a party for the literary society they both belonged to and groping her until she pushed him off. A third woman accused him of multiple episodes of “intimate partner violence” — emotional abuse and nonconsensual sex during a monthslong relationship."
Nungesser says that these are false accusations. Not different interpretations of encounters with the women, but lies.
The subtext of the accusations is that their is no physical evidence or eye witnesses, so the women should be believed on their word. The article includes this strangely written paragraph: "False reports of rape are rare, many experts say, and the federal Education Department is investigating scores of colleges for possibly violating federal rules in handling the complaints that are filed."
The question isn't whether he raped her or not.
Does it even matter whether a rape actually occurred or not? That is the question.
Increasingly, it seems, the answer is no.
“My mother raised me as a feminist,” he says, well aware of how those words will strike some people, “and I’m someone who would like to think of myself as being supportive of equal rights for women.”
LOL..see where that got you boyo?
If I founded a college right now, there'd be a no sex on campus rule and no people in opposite sex dorms rule. People want to impair themselves with substances, fool around, and then ask the college to somehow disentangle their he-said-she-said stories. No. The college cannot possibly do that. If you want to have sex, you'll have to plan for it and go off campus, and if something bad happens, you'll need to call the police. Fin.
I, too, am puzzled about the "many experts say false reports of rape are rare." Who are the experts and how did they reach their conclusions? Who decided they were experts?
In a story such as this, that is lazy reporting and editing. From what I understand, the data in this area is incomplete because a lot of rapes go unreported. And of a he knew reported to authorities, is it only the ones that law enforcement receives that are in the data? And how does someone determine if it was false? Is a recantation required?
Since this male student was exonerated by Columbia administrators, does that mean the accusation was false?
More info here:
http://columbiaspectator.com/news/2014/05/16/frustrated-columbias-inaction-student-reports-sexual-assault-police
Sulkowicz claims she was raped by Nungesser in August of 2012, but she did not report the incident to Columbia until the following April.
Robert Cook wrote:
We don't, of course, have the information to know what really happened. However, if Columbia has deemed him "not responsible" for any act of sexual assault, it should then warn those accusing him to stop their actions against him on campus, or face sanctions. (Off campus, they're free to do as they wish.)
by the same logic, since a grand jury didn't indict cops in either the brown case or the Gardner case, shouldn't we hold protesters and those inciting them to a similar standard?
Freeman Hunt said...
"People want to impair themselves with substances, fool around, and then ask the college to somehow disentangle their he-said-she-said stories."
I like your ideas, but its not just students coming to the college to complain. Some faculty are working hard to involve themselves and their schools in these incidents.
The Federal government is now dictating to schools that they must involve themselves in these incidents.
AReasonableMan said...
Gahrie said...
none of them have produced a dress with semen on it.
Never any suggestion that Lewinsky was raped by Clinton. She seemed to be the more forward one. He was an idiot to get involved, disgracing himself and the office, but it was not rape or anything like rape.
12/22/14, 11:36 AM"
Sexual harassment along with perjury. Followed by disbarment. Nice to know these are minor details in your opinion.
Shouldn't the Justic dept at the very least say that the law spoke? The justice dept would be the equivalent of campus administrators.
You had your crack at the apple, the Grand Jury didn't indict. Stop carrying around the mattress of racial identity politics, lefties.
He plays the bullying card.
And he should, because that's exactly what it is.
Normally we say "playing the X card" when X is inappropriate; I don't know what else you could call it, or any way that can be reasonably construed as not-bullying.
Emma Sulkowicz, Mariam Kashani, Tanya Borachi, Crystal Mangum, Mindy Brickman, Meg Lanker-Simons, Morgan Triplett, Desiree Nall, and, lest we forget, "Jackie."
I for one am starting to think that the sort of woman portrayed by Glenn Close in "Fatal Attraction" is not at all rare.
but she did not report the incident to Columbia until the following April.
I pretty much think if you don't report rape immediately, you are forgoing your legal rights to prosecute. With a few exceptions/caveats (like child abuse). But if you are an adult, you are making a decision in that moment on whether or not you are going to prosecute it legally. You shouldn't be coming back months/years later and trying to prosecute something when all evidence has disappeared.
Jezebel has a piece talking about the NYT article also:
http://jezebel.com/columbia-student-accused-of-rape-speaks-publicly-for-th-1674048703
they dont seem to have much sympathy for the guy and the comments are basically F him I would punch him if I ever saw him etc.
If you peruse the rest of Jezebel they have a nice story on the new bronze story of Ronaldo and how lifelike the package is, many are making plans to go to Portugal soon to see if all of the men are hung like that.
There is also a story about how to talk dirty like a pro. They dont mention if doing so means they consent to be groped or not though.
So, they figured out that they were raped after comparing notes?
It is not whether to believe or disbelieve that is so much what gets people on the right wound up, but it is the way Democrats seem to believe or disbelieve based on political advantage why preening about as "reasonable" people. It is infuriating, which is great, because it drives turnout.
Never any suggestion that Lewinsky was raped by Clinton. She seemed to be the more forward one. He was an idiot to get involved, disgracing himself and the office, but it was not rape or anything like rape.
It was sexual harassment, regardless of consent, precisely because of a law that Clinton himself signed.
His behavior in this case when caught was nearly identical to his behavior towards the women who accused him of assault and rape.
Now I get news first on twitter
Freeman: If I founded a college right now, there'd be a no sex on campus rule and no people in opposite sex dorms rule.
BYU.
This article is informative by Harvey Mansfield.
http://www.hoover.org/research/contradiction-rules-feminism
Perhaps Ms. Sulkowicz is planning a career in government or some non-profit, but I hope she realizes that her resumes are likely to end in the circular "Bat Crap Crazy" file (or bit bucket, as the case may be) for most businesses.
Shanna said...
but she did not report the incident to Columbia until the following April.
I pretty much think if you don't report rape immediately, you are forgoing your legal rights to prosecute
I assume you have the same skepticism for the Clinton rape accusers.
We are supposed to believe that shame prevented Wulkowicz from reporting a rape for eight months, and when the charge was not prosecuted to her satisfaction she voluntarily made the rape very public business. Nungesser should sue her for defamation and Columbia for enabling the defamtion.
I don't believe that Wulkowicz could successfully sue Nungesser.
AReasonableMan unreasonably wrote:
"I assume you have the same skepticism for the Clinton rape accusers."
Who tried to prosecute Clinton for rape?
From an art standpoint, the allusion to The Godfather is hard to avoid. She has definitely gone to the mattresses on this guy.
"Mr. Nungesser said the charges against him, all filed within days of one another, were the result of collusion. The three women said in interviews with The New York Times that they decided to take action when they heard about one another’s experiences."
<
"If three separate complaints against the same man could not persuade the hearing panels, how could anyone believe that justice was served?"
Did these 3 know each other prior?
"he was not allowed to bring up communications between himself and Ms. Sulkowicz after the night in question" Ha!
"(Ms. Sulkowicz did not press criminal charges, a lengthy process that she said would be too draining" Carrying a mattress not..
"Unlike criminal trials, she explained, university hearings are designed to be educational experiences.
“I think that any university students who engage with a disciplinary process on these issues learn a lot,” she said.
Mr. Nungesser says he has learned that the university will abandon its own convictions if it is politically expedient."
Higher education. Two Americas..
"Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand removes debunked sexual assault statistic from website."
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/sen.-kirsten-gillibrand-removes-debunked-sexual-assault-statistic-from-website/article/2557717
Clinton could have cleared the whole thing up by showing that he was nowhere near that hotel that day with his official records as governor. Odd that he refused.
"DENVER — LATELY, people have been bombarded with the notion that universities and colleges are hotbeds of sexual violence. Parents fear that sending their teenagers to school is equivalent to shipping them off to be sexually victimized.
But the truth is, young women who don’t go to college are more likely to be raped."
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/22/opinion/who-suffers-most-from-rape-and-sexual-assault-in-america.html?_r=1
If the genders were reversed, everyone would agree this is harassment.
But I guess that's just me playing the equality card.
From the parents' open letter:
"Emma was not allowed to explain, in her own words, the timing of her reporting. Emma tried to explain that, after meeting two women who told her they too had been raped by Nungesser (only one of whom filed a complaint), she realized that she should overcome personal shame and report him to ensure the safety of others. Ms. Siler told her to stop talking and pulled her from the room. To the panelists, the timing of Emma’s decision to report that she was raped—seven months after she said it had occurred—remained a mystery."
Even aside from the fact that this guy is being harassed, and the SJWs involved are practicing a form of mob justice that would make any Jim Crow enforcer proud, there's a serious crime going on here--a crime against art!
In what world is carrying around a mattress because you couldn't provide enough evidence to get a weekend-morning regret expelled in any way an art form? The school should be ashamed of itself for giving out credit for this.
"I pretty much think if you don't report rape immediately, you are forgoing your legal rights to prosecute."
I wouldn't go that far--there could be very valid reasons for a delay. It is a question worth asking though, both in an investigation and subsequent trial, to determine why there was a delay, as a delay can be very prejudicial (and is the main reason we have statutes of limitations for many crimes).
more from the parents:
"1) During the hearing, Nungesser, advised by his outside attorney, lied in order to cast doubt upon Emma’s character and present an alternative and perverse motivation for her complaint."
"At the very least, we recommend that Nungesser be expelled for lying at his hearing."
Based on whose determination of "lying"?
"It is inhumane and unrealistic to expect that every survivor of sexual assault who can bear reliable witness will also have the strength, determination, and support that are currently required to lodge, and see to its conclusion, a formal complaint."
So..cutting to the chase..an allegation is enough for prosecution...because justice is burdensome to the weakened.
I wouldn't go that far--there could be very valid reasons for a delay.
Which is why I said 'with caveats'. But for the most part you should report something right away if you want to prosecute.
I pretty much think if you don't report rape immediately, you are forgoing your legal rights to prosecute
I assume you have the same skepticism for the Clinton rape accusers.
Clinton is a separate case and I don't think Juanita ever brought any charges for rape, did she? The rest was more in the sexual harassment vein, which is a different issue.
Of course, I'm from Arkansas so the Clinton stuff was pretty well known around here. I remember people asking me when I went to college if any of the rumors were true and I said 'yep, pretty much'. I got the funniest looks, but this was pre-monica.
You quote a letter from the parents. Oh, the parents attended the hearing?
No? Then, what credibility does any allegation made in their letter have?
Oh that's right. None at all.
The parents conflict of interest and one sided emotional involvement should be obvious to any impartial observer.
Well..Ted,
Seems to me any party in this will have conflict of interest etc.
Just thought I'd examine a bit of the folks' attempt to define the situation. It was linked to in the main article.
The cleared suspect plays the bullying card.
FIFY, Counselor.
Lewinsky was not a rape victim.
Broderick and Willett were definitely at least rape victims.
I think you should read more about this case. He was allowed to reference a video that supposedly exonerated him. But she wasn't allowed to show the video and prove him wrong. The previous investigations - where other women accused him of doing the exacty same thing -- could not be mentioned. The entire procedure was a ridiculous farce where her accusations were not taken seriously at all.
Sounds like BS.
You know where she could go where she could show the video to prove he did it?
THE POLICE.
You know, where people who have had crimes committed against them normally go.
If the rape happened and Wulkowicz really wanted to protect other women from a sexual predator, she could hire some thug (male or female) to inflict justice upon him. The parents could do this as well. Why haven't they?
"he was not allowed to bring up communications between himself and Ms. Sulkowicz after the night in question"
After all the other stuff, this stands out as pretty interesting to me. I think it will soon be necessary for guys to take adequately time-stamped next day happy face photos and loving text exchanges as some element of insurance.
Eh..but if those are routinely disallowed as evidence..ah well.
So the three gals get together and decide to all make complaints against the guy at the same time, then she wants to bring up the fact that the other gals filed complaints against him as evidence of truthfulness?
Sulkowicz hooked up with a community activist who knows how to organize protests and send out press releases. That is the only reason I can think of why the stories on the internet are running about 100/1 in her favor.
Terry,
Sounds like only one of the other two filed a complaint...because..burdensome.
Regarding the , at least visible, support..it's as unhip to be against "social justice" as it is to be in favor of "rape culture". Own the language and you own the gullible..which seem to be many.
Ann Althouse said...He plays the bullying card.
That's an entirely predictable reaction given that victimhood is now a valued trait (maybe the most valuable trait on campus), more or less as George Will said in his column, right?
You don't get points for having a better argument, expressing yourself clearly, etc--you get points for being the victim of something, and the more victimized you are (plus the more disliked the victimizer's class is) the better. Incentize something and you'll get more of it. We as a culture (and you as academics broadly speaking) incentivized seeing oneself as a victim and arguing for your POV based on your degree of victimhood.
So, ah, don't be a "hater." Or, no, wait, don't hate the player, hate the game. Something like that.
I agree with Brando. Rape is a very serious crime and if she really was raped, then she should be filing a criminal complaint through the police.
Freeman Hunt said...
If I founded a college right now, there'd be a no sex on campus rule and no people in opposite sex dorms rule. People want to impair themselves with substances, fool around, and then ask the college to somehow disentangle their he-said-she-said stories. No. The college cannot possibly do that. If you want to have sex, you'll have to plan for it and go off campus, and if something bad happens, you'll need to call the police. Fin.
Good idea, except that it's seemingly illegal refuse to adjudicate the violations. Your college would have the Feds all over them. But you are correct that the colleges are being directed to (and often are quite willing to) take on a task that is impossible in a permissive environment. Even worse, they are permitting individuals with personal and political agendas to have decisive roles in the process. The sex police are just one of many influential non-academic constituencies that have powerful influence over the culture of colleges and universities. It's a very bad development.
Frankly at this point I'm just surprised the school isn't making him carry the mattress for her.
Come on the risin' wind
We're goin' up around the bend
Listen and believe.
The whole 'rape culture' thing all of a sudden? It's about 3rd wave feminists outraged at no-strings sex going on for far too long. It had to come to a screeching halt.
Given how "rampant" rape is on campus, how many cases involve a non-student "perp"? Does the school pseudo-justice dept. have any jurisdiction in those?
This flawed assumption posits that when ordinary young men drink around young women, they morph into uncontrollable rapists and cads.
Not a coincidence it’s always men and boys committing mass shootings. The pattern is connected to ideas of toxic masculinity in our culture.
from Feminist Frequency aka Anita Sarkeesian
As more Americans reject the fairytale of spontaneous conception, there will be more mattresses crossing the road in order to exploit the "rape
loophole". These faux "mattresses" will assure that women and trans-women who are actually victims of rape-rape will suffer a a progressive credibility loss.
The way these people talk about it is so weird to me.
Read this Slate article.
The article continually assumes that a rape happened. Why would you assume that? That's a hell of a thing to assume. And then the article says...
It’s hard not to feel sympathy for Nungesser here
What? Why would you feel any sympathy for a rapist? I don't get being sure he's a rapist and simultaneously feeling sympathy for his plight. Bizarre.
No matter what actually happened in Nungesser’s three cases, campus rape is a systemic problem, and he's just one man.
It's ugly and wrong to treat a horrific alleged crime like this. What do you mean, "no matter"? Since when do reporters not give a shit about truth anymore? The facts are highly relevant! Investigate the allegations! Find out what actually happened! How bizarre is it to not want to know what actually happened? Weird, weird, weird.
Listen to the mom of the woman who is alleging rape.
“I think by sweeping it under the rug [Columbia has] subjected him to a very painful, scarring experience,” she told the Times. “I don’t see it as Emma’s fault because she just had to do what she had to do but I do see it as the school’s fault.”
Weird, weird, weird. "I don't see it as Emma's fault." Why the hell would a rape be Emma's fault? And if her allegations are false, it is clearly her fault. I find it highly suspicious that her parents want to blame the rich, heavily-endowed university, almost like you want to sue them or something.
A rape allegation should be investigated thoroughly. The facts should not be hidden, but broadcast. I do not understand this attitude (among journalists!) that the truth does not matter. What the hell is wrong with you?
Feminist Sarkeesian is a comedian. More human lives are lost every year through lethal injection, decapitation, and dismemberment, in the privacy of a clinic, than in wars, mass shootings, and ISIS combined. Perhaps the pattern of toxic culture is more a projection than reflection in her mind. She should start counting the number of lives tortured and murdered in her womb. The numbers add up to a degenerate political movement.
"Sorry we have to run over this individual man, but we have to break some eggs to make a feminist omelet."
The truth doesn't matter but the optics are terrific!
"My mother raised me as a feminist."
Please don't hurt me! I am a loyal member of the party!
I hope he sues her, the instructor who okayed this assignment, and the university for millions. I hope she spends the next few decades carrying around a heavy debt.
"Since when do reporters not give a shit about truth anymore?"
Saint Croix,
Where ya been?
If facts are unavailable, or they don't add up..there's always the metaphor to run with.
I do believe the "art" project element of the "victim" and the bizarre sympathy of the mom for the alleged rapist is new..maybe.
n.n. said...
Feminist Sarkeesian is a comedian. More human lives are lost every year through lethal injection, decapitation, and dismemberment, in the privacy of a clinic, than in wars, mass shootings, and ISIS combined. Perhaps the pattern of toxic culture is more a projection than reflection in her mind. She should start counting the number of lives tortured and murdered in her womb. The numbers add up to a degenerate political movement.
Dismiss Sarkessian at your own peril. She is own of top personalities of 2014 and only getting bigger. Next up in 2015 is full-on censorship!
St. Croix wrote:
"Read this Slate article."
It's an article about the NYT article. It mentions the multiple sexual assault complaints against the man, but does not mention that the complaints were coordinated.
I would love to see a timeline. How long did Sulkowicz continue to see the man after the alleged rape? Same for the second complainant.
What went on in the hearings is a mystery. I assume no transcript is available to the press, but the press reports her description of proceedings as fact.
Odd that these two students would continue to attend Columbia since both feel the school has wronged them.
That's some performance art in itself.
She got a cool, faculty endorsed art project out of it..why leave?
Conversely,
Where is he going to be welcomed?
But..the mentioned graduation ceremony is presumably optional. he might consider skipping that..as I did mine, just because I was sick of UW-Madness.
Alex:
I would never summarily dismiss anyone. No matter how fantastic the fairytale, there will always be a progressive number of individuals who consume the opiate.
Feminism is a political movement lead by bright, ambitious, ruthless women who appeal to a loud minority of women. Furthermore, it reaches not only women, but men, too, with overlapping and convergent interests.
Also, I would speculate that many more have succumbed to its calming, pleasurable effects at least once in their lifetime. The opiate, not necessarily feminism.
What did Sun Tzu say about knowing your competition? It's a mistake to underestimate your opponent or overestimate yourself.
he was not allowed to bring up communications between himself and Ms. Sulkowicz after the night in question
Why on God's green earth would you think those communications are irrelevant? To me that's highly relevant. That's the sort of thing that would absolutely come in at a rape trial.
Why does the NYT not report these communications in detail? Particularly if these are texts or e-mails from her, factual information that can be verified.
Why isn't the crux of the story "what happened?" Instead the story seems to be "look how bad everybody feels."
She might not have known she was raped that soon after the event.
She might not have known she was raped that soon after the event.
huh?
Because it can become more apparent later on, when it comes up in conversation with others. You know..
She says that he penetrated her anally and that he did not ejaculate. Perhaps this made her feel inadequate as a woman.
He could have defended himself without using the "bully" framework.
By crying "bully," he's using a word associated with the women who protect women, and that can have an effect, creating dissonance, perhaps, or at least really annoying them.
Avoiding "their" word might be preferable, however. He won the case. Why not rationally cite that win and behave in a traditional male way. Be gracious. Chivalrous. Set an example.
Speaking of tradition, people have been speaking ill of one another for time immemorial. That's all this woman is doing. Why doesn't that make her look bad? (Even if people aren't willing to say that out loud.)
Speaking of tradition, people have been speaking ill of one another for time immemorial. That's all this woman is doing. Why doesn't that make her look bad? (Even if people aren't willing to say that out loud.)
Seriously Ann? You know as well as I do that the Feminazis control the universities. The fucking Columbia President won't speak up about this for FUCK sake. Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse?
" "Great piece of ass, but not worth it."
No, "bad sex is bad sex."
Althouse wrote:
"Why not rationally cite that win and behave in a traditional male way."
When women do not act in traditional female way, they have no right to expect men to act in a traditional male way.
Men and women seem to be adversaries these days. Female goals are achieved at the expense of men and vice versa.
"all this publicity is just making her look unhinged, and the school feckless and weak, and he's likely to end up with far more sympathy from the general public."
You're kidding, right ? This is in the city that elected DeBlasio.
How did we deal with the Amazonians?
"people have been speaking ill of one another for time immemorial. That's all this woman is doing."
Yeahhh..it's just like calling someone a "jerk". Just. Like. It.
C'mon dude! Man up!
" there is a certain type of functional crazy woman that glories in victim drama and they are all too common"
There is a guide for men about women like this.
I don't know anything about either of them. But carrying around a mattress makes her sound crazy to me.
Maybe since he's from Germany he didn't pick up on the crazy vibe she radiated. But young men need to detect crazy women quickly and retreat. Calibrate your Jackie radar, men.
Ann,
Have students been speaking ill of other students and getting thesis credit for it for decades?
Wait. Women's Studies. Never mind.
Honestly, I hate rape. One time in college I turned down sex with a woman I was really hot for because she was really drunk and I wasn't. It would have been wrong. But I don't think it would have been rape. I can't believe that feminists have created a reality where accusations of rape are automatically doubted, but they have. IMHO using roofies is forcible rape, and should be dealt with with long prison sentences, as should forcible rape. I can't believe I have to say such things, but honestly, the definition of rape has changed to the point where not only do juries nullify it, but the victims nullify it as well.
"Avoiding "their" word might be preferable, however. He won the case. Why not rationally cite that win and behave in a traditional male way. Be gracious. Chivalrous. Set an example. "
You ARE kidding, right ? I still hold doors open for women. If they are over 50, they thank me. If not, they look at me like I am trying to molest them as they go through the door.
Traditional male ways work with traditional females. A few years ago, I put my hand on the back of my 20-something daughter as we were going into a cathedral in Italy (at my expense, of course) and she flared up at me about trying direct her to move faster, or some such complaint.
Avoiding "their" word might be preferable, however. He won the case. Why not rationally cite that win and behave in a traditional male way. Be gracious. Chivalrous.
@Professor, because there's no payoff for it, thanks to you and your fellow* feminists, who set out to make chivalry the punch line of a sick joke. None whatsoever. Your asking your male readers to be idiots, and we're not going to do that.
The title you gave this post, and the throwaway line at the end, serve as sort of bookends to a sad story about a disturbed coed and her impact on the life of a young man who made the mistake of not watching "Fatal Attraction" before matriculating at Columbia.
_____________
* Please accept my apologies for using a sexist word.
Brando said,,,
"'I pretty much think if you don't report rape immediately, you are forgoing your legal rights to prosecute.'
I wouldn't go that far--there could be very valid reasons for a delay. It is a question worth asking though, both in an investigation and subsequent trial, to determine why there was a delay, as a delay can be very prejudicial (and is the main reason we have statutes of limitations for many crimes).
12/22/14, 1:49 PM"
^^^THIS. Again, let's not get distracted by the incendiary nature of the alleged offense (sexual assault, rape). Let's just focus on the informational problem --what is known or knowable, who might know it, how to test it. And let's ask the ancient question: "cui bono"? Who is helped or hurt by the passage of time? Is it fair for an adult to (ahem) sleep on her rights for years, knowingly let the evidence dissipate, neglect to create any official record of events (let alone demand official action), let the chain of custody be broken beyond all hope of repair, let witnesses forget and die and move away, and only THEN bring her case? Because it suits her current emotional or other needs?
I would want to ask some very tough questions of such an accuser. Burglary, fender-bender, groping, rape: whatever the subject matter, the failure to act promptly to protect your rights is, often, effectively to waive them. Delay should be construed strongly against you.
Althouse wrote: By crying "bully," he's using a word associated with the women who protect women, and that can have an effect, creating dissonance, perhaps, or at least really annoying them.
That's bullshit. It's like complaining about calling some blacks and gays racists and bigots when they damn well are and should be called on it, especially using their own terms.
By crying "bully," he's using a word associated with the women who protect women, and that can have an effect, creating dissonance, perhaps, or at least really annoying them.
In other words, you want a pejorative term tied to a specific sex only. That itself is sexist.
"bully," he's using a word associated with the women who protect women.
Really? I think if anything, "bully" was more associated with men...but much broader as of late.
I like the way you think, Tank. The girl is pretty, but dangerous. Walter, I agree. I'd venture to say most bullying, in the traditional sense, was done by boys against other boys in schools.
I like that title, 'Witchfinder General', I will use it in the future. As in 'Who appointed you Witchfinder General' or 'Has the Senate confirmed you as Witchfinder General?'. I can see it having many uses on the web.
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