"We requested from law enforcement any and all information about the incident, including the video from inside the elevator," NFL senior vice president of communications Greg Aiello said. "That video was not made available to us and no one in our office has seen it until today."Do you believe that?
Here's the video at TMZ, where the video first appeared.
UPDATE: The NYT gets at Aiello's likely half-truth:
A league spokesman said “no one in our office has seen it until today,” but he did not respond to inquiries about whether any of the league’s investigators who do not work in the office had previously seen the video.Boldface mine.
Posts
180 comments:
Is anyone else seeing a weird effect when watching this video, that it keeps rewinding and then playing forward again?
Because sometimes knocking out your fiance and dragging her out the elevator isn't as bad as it sounds
I guess he should have slugged a man. Then it would be okay.
It's one wild day. An inside runner in the NFL gets fired for acting like a violent person, and saguaro cactus in the Sonoran Desert are drowning in a flood, and Russian bombers are practicing cruise missile launches on us near Alaska.
It was shocking to watch that woman hit Ray Rice's fist with her face, not once but twice.
Nope. Weren't the police called? They must have seen the video, and wouldn't the NFL have requested the video from the hotel or the police? And the idea of hitting your fiance hard enough to knock her out and then calmly dragging her out into the hallway, isn't bad enough? He stood over her in the elevator and didn't even check to see if she was still alive. No emotion whatsoever, didn't even touch her until the doors opened.
Do you believe that?
No.
The lesson is don't get taped on video.
Was Rice wrong?
Yeah.
But, damn parents --- TEACH YOUR DAUGHTERS TO NOT FUCKING PUNCH DUDES. I know, "blame the victim", but damn. You've spent years calling men neanderthals et al and then expect a man, who is significantly stronger than you, to simply ACCEPT being punched repeatedly?
You want a man to act chivalrous? Then BEHAVE in a manner where they can. If you want to act like a street thug to a man, don't be shocked when a response in said manner is forthcoming.
She should have assault charges brought on her as well.
So their argument is that we are not lying, we are just incompetent?
Not sure that helps them seem more believable.
No, but it begs the question, what in the world did they think happened in there?
Optics really do matter, apparently.
Ravens: I learned about it from the newspapers, just like you did.
Sounds familiar....
It's weird watching him stand around. Notice that she married him AFTER that event. Hey, what's a punch when a payday beckons ?
The NFL has maintained that they did not see the video; they were saying this months ago, before all the blow up about the 2 game suspension.
I'm inclined to believe them, though it is pretty stick your head in the sand behavior. They had no reason to see the video because the woman declined to press charges. The problem took care of itself for the NFL, so they weren't inclined to look any closer. And Ray Rice's lawyer wasn't about to give them access to the video out of the kindness of his heart because he knew it would be bad.
I don't know why they would have had to see this video. The video of him dragging her out while she was completely unconcious was already available.
Generally, evidence isn't released until the criminal case is closed. And then it gets released through a FOIA request.
"I guess he should have slugged a man. Then it would be okay."
Maybe, if the man he slugged was a white hispanic who didn't have gun.
If she's not prosecuting why is everyone else upset?
Fox News “The message here is to take the stairs.”
I'm happy he was released by the Ravens.
But I can see how they would have been swayed by her when she asked them not to punish him to harshly. She stayed with him. She married him after this happened. Some people want drama in their relationships.
is it up to the NFL and the Ravens to make sure players and their wives have healthy relationships?
"I don't know why they would have had to see this video. The video of him dragging her out while she was completely unconcious was already available."
Yeah, apparently they needed a more vivid perspective.
For discussion the problem of a high income man hitting his wife has always been which point of view to take.
If you see the blows as between the two of them, and she signals she doesn't want his income stream affected, then a COMPROMISE is worked out and lenient punishment like the Baltimore Police and the NFL Commissioner did on this results.
But if you see this as a crime against the State that cannot be condoned but requires an end to the man's income, then he must be fired and she loses again while only outraged feminists and pious men get for air time for their benefit.
From a comment in an earlieer thread:
"(Boxing says whites can't throw 'em from the shoulders)"
May or may not be relevant.
Remember Beyoncé's sister Solange attack Jay Z in an elevator after the Met Gala in May?
Good thing Jay Z did not punch back.
Presumably the same punishment will apply if a player knocks a man out.
"If she's not prosecuting why is everyone else upset?"
Because we want to show our contempt for a man that would hit a woman.
Why is there no discussion of whether it is even appropriate for the NFL to be the enforcer here?
Ray Lewis obstructed justice in a murder investigation. He helped his buddy get away with murder. He's a big NFL hero and hall of famer now.
I understand that the NFL wants to manage its image. But I suspect that the desire to be the major instrument of justice is going to come back to bite Goodell.
"Do you believe that?"
Stranger things have happened.
This country needs to have a good family argument,...
Blogger dreams said...
"If she's not prosecuting why is everyone else upset?"
Because we want to show our contempt for a man that would hit a woman.
9/8/14, 2:31 PM
------------------------
I guess it's okay if it makes everyone feel better.
"Why is there no discussion of whether it is even appropriate for the NFL to be the enforcer here?"
Its their league and they can make their own rules.
Lose his sorry ass, I say.
I couldn't view the video, but a few thoughts on this case:
1) Why are we making the NFL the primary authority for dealing with outside domestic violence? If we're counting on the NFL to adjudicate and mete out punishment rather than the police and prosecutors, then we're pretty fallen as a society.
2) The fact that his (now) wife hasn't pressed charges is the likely reason Rice isn't in jail today--and reflects the difficulty in prosecuting domestic violence cases. But hoping the NFL will pick up where the justice system left off seems pretty stupid. You'd be better off trying to counsel victims to throw the book at these guys, though that is often a fruitless task. The constant forgiveness only makes these guys enjoy consequence-free punchings.
3) Did she actually strike him first? I had read an article stating he hit her first, she hit back, then he really let her have it and dragged her unconscious into the lobby. Which is pretty insane, and frightening, as someone who could do that is likely to have a lot more of the same. It would be nice to see them start up with someone who will in fact legitimately beat the hell out of them, but they probably pick their targets carefully.
4) I'm a Ravens fan, but this guy needs to be severely punished and not in a "2 game suspension, this will please the polite society" slovenly way the NFL has in mind. He's eventually going to kill that woman otherwise.
He just needs to say that he is gay. Then the commissioner will pressure teams to sign him.
"Its their league and they can make their own rules."
That is true, of course, but the real question is why the NFL and not the criminal prosecuting authorities. Of course, an uncooperative victim is probably the problem here--but with video evidence, shouldn't the state still be able to prosecute for assault?
Brando- the video on TMZ shows her hitting him first. They were obviously arguing and she slaps him. It isn't cool- women should hit men either, but it couldn't have hurt him.
Hard to make sense of it. I assume they are telling the truth and did not see the video since it would be difficult to cover up such a lie. But they knew there was a video and didn't wait to/want to see it before imposing sanctions? Very odd.
I don't see her hitting him back I see him kind of swatting her and her moving is arm back out of the way then moving forward as if to confront him or get in his face. And that's when he knocks her out cold.
But it looks like the only one doing the actual hitting is him.
Its a bit hard to see the first hit though.
No.
Any bets on where and when he will land next? He is too good a player to put out to pasture. Politically incorrect I know but.....
Obviously the Ravens wanted to keep him because of his value to the team but with the latest video the pressure had become to great to ignore. They chose to cut their loss and move on.
For good or bad, right or wrong, we are seeing a pattern; the punishment by the League/corporation/media/organizatoin/whatever is gauged solely on the basis of how bad the video looks or how awful the audio recording sounds.
So, if you use racially-charged language it's bad. But if you are recorded, it's worse and you are finished. Witness NBA ownership.
If you are a pro athlete and you behave awfully, it's bad. But if it is video recorded and it offends a favored interest group -- women, minorities, etc. -- it's worse and you are finished.
It was probably hidden with the Ferguson videotape.
Oh this should be hilarious. Crack, regarding the topic of this post, what family argument are you saying the country needs to have?
NJ law on point: “The use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor reasonably believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the unlawful force by such other person on the present occasion."
Arguably, once she came at him with her hands up, that would've triggered his right to self defense - she didn't even have to hit him first. With regard to proportionality, I believe in NJ that the response must not be "significantly greater" than the force threatened. And, to my knowledge, the law doesn't differentiate between male/female defenders and male/female aggressors.
"Brando- the video on TMZ shows her hitting him first. They were obviously arguing and she slaps him. It isn't cool- women should hit men either, but it couldn't have hurt him."
Ah--if that's how it happened, generally my take is that it should be treated no differently than a big guy getting hit by a little guy. The return punch should be proportionate to the original punch. I don't buy into that "never hit women" crap, but instead it should be "don't hit anyone first" and "don't break someone's jaw just because they slapped you".
I'll have to find a way to see the video itself.
Ever since Michael Vick was let back into the league I don't give the NFL squat for moral or ethical cred.
There is assault and then there is assault, assault. I am thinking this was the latter.
Ray Lewis and his entourage were unavailable for comment.
Ray Rice and Richie Incognito could have jointly offered their services to the Oakland Raiders back in the Al Davis days and been warmly welcomed.
Ever since Michael Vick was let back into the league I don't give the NFL squat for moral or ethical cred.
Or allow Lingerie Refs to officiate NFL regular season games.
>> Obviously the Ravens wanted to keep him because of his value to the team but with the latest video the pressure had become to great to ignore.
You mean like Ray Lewis, who either killed two people, or helped kill two people?
"You mean like Ray Lewis, who either killed two people, or helped kill two people?"
Let history be your guide, it is what it is. In this case, who knows if the final chapter has been written.
There's a guy still playing in the NFL who very likely picked up a too gentle pit bull by the hind legs, swung it around and bashed it's head against a rock until it was dead.
Or maybe he electrocuted it. Or drowned it. Or all three.
Still playing in the NFL.
No video though, so there's that.
Also, it's a culture thing. But then, so is hitting women.
I feel like they can't have seen it, or they wouldn't have been so dumb as to walk into this mess.
But, people are also very dumb. I'm 70~% confident they didn't see it.
MayBee said...
I'm happy he was released by the Ravens.
But I can see how they would have been swayed by her when she asked them not to punish him to harshly. She stayed with him. She married him after this happened. Some people want drama in their relationships.
I won't be a bit surprised if she doesn't file for divorce if he isn't picked up by another team. Some people want drama. Others like a really big paycheck. Quite a few professional athletes receive divorce papers soon after their careers are over.
the video on TMZ shows her hitting him first. They were obviously arguing and she slaps him. It isn't cool- women should hit men either, but it couldn't have hurt him.
Well, the NFL can fire her too.
Always assume you are being recorded. That's the take-away.
And of course the NFL had seen the video before.
"Anthony said...
I guess he should have slugged a man. Then it would be okay."
Or a white cop in Ferguson, MO. Then all we'd be hearing about is how he was 'unarmed.'
Betamax wrote;
""(Boxing says whites can't throw 'em from the shoulders)"
May or may not be relevant."
Glad I wasn't drinking anything. Guffawed quite abruptly with this one.
"Or allow Lingerie Refs to officiate NFL regular season games."
Now there's a good idea: http://cbskzok2.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/2920712.jpg
Nope. Ravens are lying, NFL is lying. We knew it from the jump.
Brando said, "The return punch should be proportionate to the original punch."
Obama says, "punch back twice as hard."
Colin Powell implied more than once that the correct response to a violent threat is overwhelming force.
Do I have time to take the measure of my weaponry, and customize my response thereby?
When a toddler punches me in the thigh, yes. When an alpaca aims a hoof at my head, no.
The facts don't seem very clear in this Ray Rice case.
I'm disgusted with the "proportionate" argument, though. That's stupid. You've got 0.2 seconds, starting now: a missile is aimed at your head: too late; you weren't "proportionate".
Just how good a deal has the NFLPA got for its members and what kind of lawyer did Rice have?
You would think that part of the original suspension would, either by collective bargaining terms or some player specific agreement,say that once the NFL punishes a player for an act, it cannot do so second, third, etc. times for the same act.
And by the way, initially everyone thought that Rice had knocked the woman out in the elevator, and that was deemed worth a two-game suspension. The conduct hasn't changed, but apparently the offense of getting caught on tape is much more serious.
Could it be that the NFL is doing this for PR now, realizing that it will lose on the second suspension further down the line, pay a few million to Rice, and hope no one notices?
After knocking his woman out he doesn't even lean in to see if she's ok. He starts dragging her body to get her off the elevator. At one point he pulls her shoe off and tosses it. No "honey? Are you ok? Please be alive!" It's like her body on the floor is a bag of
Potatoes and he needs to drag it off the elevator bcause it's inconvenient.
And she then went on to marry this guy?
The Ravens unveiled their idol to Ray Lewis at the stadium last week! The NFL and the Ravens suck!
Potatoes and he needs to drag it off the elevator bcause it's inconvenient.
And she then went on to marry this guy?
Yeah, I think people need to address this. Obviously, she's a victim, but what do we do about willing victims?
People are mad at the NFL, but let's be mad at the two people who were in the elevator. Him for beating her, and her for staying with him when she is in a position to walk away.
>> And she then went on to marry this guy?
It happens every day.
1) Guy beats his wife/girlfriend
2) She calls police, who take him to jail
3) She bails him out.
Of course I believe it, Ann. It's on the internet.
From the FaceBook comments on that TMZ video:
"Dean Van Halen · Follow · Works at Burger King
pretty sure self defense means defending yourself only with force equal to or less than that of the other person's force. and a 5'8" 200 pound football player knocking out his fiance who is only walking towards him is not equal force.
Reply · Like · 202 · 10 hours ago"
202 "likes". Pretty sure self defense means that.
I'm pretty sure white people cause cancer.
202 "likes". This is a top comment on that thread. Very highly regarded.
I don't care of they saw the video or not. He knocked her unconcious with his fist. What the fuck did they think happened?
Glenn Reynolds notes that the judge and DA who let Rice off are prosecuting the lady who had a permitted gun in her car and admitted it to a cop who stopped her. Of course, she doesn't play in the NFL and probably has an income that Price would use to tip a doorman.
Remember how, back in the day, everyone used to agree that athletes should be held to a high standard of decency and moral character, and kids looked up to them as role models?
Yeah, me neither.
It's terrible and Rice is getting what he deserved. Have to wonder about due process when the police don't prosecute and the NFL does.
At the same time the reporting of the off-field activities of the Thug-athletes is eclipsing the sports themselves. Part of the appeal of entertainment/sports is that it is a retreat from the real world.
Back to the real world: Why don't hockey players act like this?
People seem to forget that she was arrested also ( the charges were later dropped). The NFL and the Ravens more than likely took that into account when assessing the situation. Not seeing the full video, the event boiled down to she hitting him and him striking back.
I don't think it's correct to infer that if the police had the video then the NFL had access to it too. I'm sure the rules vary among jurisdictions, but I don't think it can be assumed that cops are authorized to share evidence with interested third parties like the perp's employer. There's always the possibility that someone showed the NFL the video but then the NFL was obliged to deny it so as not to burn their source. But on the "Do you believe" question, I can't say I have a strong opinion one way or the other.
@retired -- the prosecutors have, ideally, much tougher standards to meet than some private organization enforcing their own contracts. In particular, it's (thankfully) very hard to prosecute battery without a complaining witness.
There's an interesting morality play here. It's a reasonable guess that she didn't press charges because that would destroy her own income. And yet, with the truth coming out, now she doesn't have the income AND doesn't have criminal justice either.
It's not always about the money. Lot's of lower income abusees stay in relationships as well.
This is a pure PR play by the NFL and I agree, get the worst 10% of the thugs out of the game. Then they can go after the worst 10% of the a$$h0les, like Richard Sherman.
I think it's a shame these freaks have to juice to be competitive, and then suffer the consequences of their own roidy behavior.
I believe no one in the NFL office saw it. That seems more likely than the idea that they saw it, knew it was certain to come out, and gave Rice a two game suspension. Their interest in keeping Rice on the field is not that great. He's a good player, but an interchangeable part from their point of view.
The Ravens are another story. He was a significant asset for them. They had more to loose than the league office. They could easily have seen it and kept their mouths shut - focused on the "they are undergoing counseling" story.
At least he wasn't murdering her like Hernandez and Ray Carruth and a few others.
Blogger Carol said...
I think it's a shame these freaks have to juice to be competitive, and then suffer the consequences of their own roidy behavior.
9/8/14, 5:23 PM
--------------------------
That's what I was thinking 'roid rage'.
Hard to believe Rice and his reps would have acceped the two-game suspension without some written assurances that there would be no further penalties for this incident. I expect the union will rightly file a grievance.
Key being "and kids looked up to them as role models?"
They still do.
"garage mahal said...
The lesson is don't get taped on video."
This goes a long way to explaining why you're no longer married.
If Obama had a son, he would look like Ray Rice.
Why wouldn't you believe the NFL, assuming the video was in the hands of police. Police are secretive bastards. Just because.
I believe that they had not seen the video. I do not believe that they were unaware of what the video showed. I certainly believe that the police saw the video and he was not charged. Perhaps they can excuse that based on the ground that she would not testify, but did they even need her testimony?
I also believe that the NFL and the Ravens did not want to know the truth. Nevertheless they had to know it anyway. The woman was knocked unconscious and remained unconscious for some time. As several have pointed out, how did they think that happened?
Should be never play in the NFL again? That I'm not so sure of.
I do understand why the Ravens cut him. And it's not because of the incredible violence of what he did. Had the whole thing come out right away, he probably would have had a long suspension with a shot at redemption at some point. But now the Ravens are embarrassed about their complicity in a cover up, so they cut him.
A compromise position might be to reinstate Rice next year, but make him play the first ten games without a helmet.
Maybe the point is that SHE saw the video for the first time. She never really knew what happened till she saw the video because she was knocked out. I mean she was slapping at her husband and then ... she woke up. No idea what happened - so she accepts his version - "You slipped and fell when I slapped back (with my fist a little too hard, sorry honey)" Finally SHE sees the video and sees how hard he hit and how callous he was afterward and then she's mad at him and the NFL for not showing her the video. And so then the NFL has to dump him or seem to be colluding with him and get sued along with him.
Is Ray Rice a feminist, since he treated a woman exactly how he'd treat a man in that situation?
The NFL is clearly concerned about the victim. That is why they stripped her of her source of income and ensured that her attacker would have much more time to spend with her.
Did anyone else have the song "Wang Chung" in their head while watching the herky-jerky video? Someone out there is certainly working on a parody.
I saw the newly released video and it was what I expected. I do not understand the new outrage. Are people's imagination so limited that they needed to see the video to know what was required to knock someone unconscious?
When you train men for years to be violent, when violence is at the core of their profession, what are reasonable expectations?
Rough men have a very different way of thinking than the pussified men you meet every day in the office.
For nonessential violent professions, like boxing and football a case can be made that their time has passed.
"garage mahal said...
The lesson is don't get taped on video."
Wow. You have a daughter? If so, hope your future SIL can't read...
When you watch the video and have the Benny Hill theme music in your head it comes off different.
You have to keep the Benny Hill music playing while she lays half-in/half-out of the elevator, and he tosses the shoe. Gold.
Ray Rice needs to release the following statement:
"Since I was a young man, I have experienced bisexual feelings. My fiancee was aware of this and has been supportive; however, on that night we had both been drinking. She saw my gaze linger on another man for too long and she began to ridicule my sexuality. She began to slap at me while using homophobic epithets. I responded in an unacceptable and extreme manner. However, I am thankful that the situation has allowed me to be more open and honest about who I am. I am a gay man."
Let's see how that would alter the narrative...
ARM,
Which are you? Pussified or rough? Based on your writings, I would say the former. (Don't get mad! You identified the two categories!) As a pussified male, how can you know the mindset of the rough men?
Do men in these "nonessential, violent" professions physically abuse their partners at a disproportionate rate? Surely as a reasonable man you have seen the numbers and would not just be spouting off based upon your observation bias, right?
"For nonessential violent professions, like boxing and football a case can be made that their time has passed."
Like military and police ?
Personally, if somebody tries to break into my house, he will find out what a non-violent profession can do with a 9 mm. Not women, though.
"garage mahal said...
The lesson is don't get taped on video."
This goes a long way to explaining why you're no longer married.
Absofuckinglutely. What a scumbag.
Wow. You have a daughter? If so, hope your future SIL can't read...
Watching your hero go down in flames is no reason to take that anger out on me. My comment about the "lesson" learned was obviously that the NFL doesn't care about domestic violence until there is a video of it. Dumbass.
When you train men for years to be violent, when violence is at the core of their profession, what are reasonable expectations?
I think it's pretty reasonable to expect them not to beat the shit out of women then drag em through the hall by their hair.
I don't care what you do for a living.
Michael K said...
Like military and police ?
Struggling with the meaning of the word nonessential?
ARM: "For nonessential violent professions, like boxing and football a case can be made that their time has passed."
So many layers to this typical fascist statement.
Course I'm not a democrat and I don't think a eapist deserves protection because of their politics and I think that "lionizing" some fat hack drunk murdere is so great either.
And you know damned well that those two cocksuckers have slapped around their share in between the murders and the rapes.
Ok, murders, plural probably isn't fair to Kennedy. As far as we know.
Bleh. Cell phones.
donald said...
I think it's pretty reasonable to expect them not to beat the shit out of women then drag em through the hall by their hair.
I don't care what you do for a living.
At an individual level this is obviously the expectation but statistically what is reasonable? Is a domestic violence rate twice the national average acceptable for a non-essential profession devoted solely to entertainment? Where would a reasonable line be drawn?
I'm a better PR consultant than any of those over-credentialed hacks. Let me take a crack at this.
Ray Rice should issue a press release asking the public not to view the TMZ video, as each viewing will re-traumatize his wife. Also, ask the public for privacy as they deal with their family crisis, as they grieve over the loss of their paycheck.
Roger Goodell also needs to do some damage control. Domestic violence increases ten-fold during the Super Bowl. The only rational thing is to cancel it.
Althouse.."Do you believe that?"
79...."No."
With most of the talking heads on sports media trying to convince us that the NFL and the Ravens organization didn't know what took place in the elevator until today it's clear to me that because Ray Rice was a rainmaker he got a pass and all the stool we heard today was just that. Stool.
TMZ is now saying that tomorrow they will show proof that the NFL had seen or had access to the video.
Roger Goodell is not having a fun Monday Night a Football this evening.
At an individual level this is obviously the expectation but statistically what is reasonable? Is a domestic violence rate twice the national average acceptable for a non-essential profession devoted solely to entertainment? Where would a reasonable line be drawn?
You're an idiot.
Who cares about the NFL? What about the no kidding government that has law enforcement responsibilities and duties?
Who has jurisdiction? Why wasn't he arrested? That wasn't Assault and Battery?
Now this link. The same jurisdiction that has slow rolled this beating is the one that is running full speed ahead with Shaneen Allen's prosecution.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/08/10/ray-rice-shaneen-allen-gun-column/13862831/
1) she hit him first, after being spit on.
2) after the knockout, she married him
3) now that Rice is low-status, low-income, she'll divorce him.
donald said...
You're an idiot.
You seem to be having trouble articulating a rational position.
"Struggling with the meaning of the word nonessential?"
To Obama the latter and to Holder the former.
We had best not start comparing domestic violence rates between groups.
If we do that there's about 1.7% of the population with some serious explaining to do.
Back in the day I took Tae Kwon Do (Korean for No Personal Checks) and was occasionally knocked on my ass by a round-house kick from a more able opponent. It was more of an embarrassment than anything else being out cold momentarily. So maybe that's what the NFL was thinking, or not. Take a minute to chuckle or not.
Vick should never been allowed to play again for what he did and deserves all our contmept.
Remember that football is nothing but the circus in our modern version of panem et circenses. Can't let the masses see what is really going on.
Glass jaw. She should have led with a right jab, instead of boring in for a left hook.
Seriously, I wonder if he understood how weak women are. Hit a guy with a solid punch and he goes down. Hit a women and she's knocked out.
The weirdest part is where he half-drags her out of the elevator. What was that all about?
It must be awkward to stand around waiting for your girlfriend to come to.
ARM, calling someone who makes up numbers on the fly and treats them as fact an idiot is the perfectly reasonable thing to do. You present yourself as someone trying to have a rational debate but base your position on a foundation of things you arbitrarily decided are true. Then, when others don't play along, you decide that they cannot mount an argument. But, it is impossible to mount an argument when the person you are debating believes it is perfectly reasonable to randomly declare unproven ideas as fact. You have declared that the domestic abuse rates are double among football players and boxers. Where is your evidence for this position?
And saying, "I don't like football players and boxers because they are scary," is not a reasonable position.
Another unarmed gentle giant of a man.
The 'ho came at him, he decked the bitch. Bitch doan mind because she marry Sugar Daddy right soon after dat for all dey bling!! Daps on dat!!
Just another ghetto couple. Being black and authentic.
We should thank the NFL for taking some 200 big Ni$$ahs off the streets and away from violent crimes. As for the 500 other blacks, reluctance to call a Michael Brown or a Trayboon what they are....leads to more people thinking all blacks think the same and empathize with the thugs.
Matt, you are doing your best to make Drago look like a reading comprehension savant.
Point to where I make up numbers or treat those made up numbers as fact.
Point to where I say domestic abuse rates are double among football players and boxers.
You are having a conversation with an imaginary person in your head. You should get that looked at.
I say close down the Revel Hotel and Casino in Atlantic City... Oh, wait... uh... never mind.
Here ya go, ARM!
AReasonableMan said...
At an individual level this is obviously the expectation but statistically what is reasonable? Is a domestic violence rate twice the national average acceptable for a non-essential profession devoted solely to entertainment? Where would a reasonable line be drawn?
9/8/14, 7:31 PM
You are presupposing something that is not in evidence. You are already assuming the domestic violence rate is higher. In the above quote you suggest it is twice as high. It may be higher but you cannot reasonably assume so and declare it as fact. As such, your entire argument is idiotic.
And, when called on it, you go all asshole. Typical for you but nonetheless disappointing. You besmirch the word "reasonable".
This thread needs more Crack.
Is a domestic violence rate twice the national average acceptable for a non-essential profession devoted solely to entertainment? Where would a reasonable line be drawn?
I don't see why we have to draw a line and carve out some application that is defined by membership in a group (in this case, professional athletes in a non-essential violent sport). I mean, why can't it just be something like "if people break the law, then those people should be punished for breaking that law, regardless of what profession they happen to be in."
In that scenario, "non-essential violent professionals" could be punished for assaulting their spouse the same way you could punish a bartender, librarian or carpenter for doing the same. And you don't have to punish the vast majority of rule-abiding citizens who get enjoyment out of watching or playing football, boxing, MMA or whatever, simply because of a few bad apples.
Also, 538 reviewed the The Rate of Domestic Violence Arrests Among NFL Players and it probably doesn't turn out to be what you think it is.
Yep, needs more Crack and Gary Rosen.
Matt, you seem determined to make a fool of yourself. I was asking a hypothetical. Not an unreasonable one either.
There are differences in domestic violence rates between professions, we tolerate those differences up to a point. I was asking where that point should be.
Not sure why you are so threatened by this line of enquiry.
It seems likely that domestic abuse amongst NFL players is low relative to age matched control groups but high relative to income matched controls. It appears to be disproportionately high relative to the rate of other crimes committed by this group but the total rate of crime is low relative to age controls.
Bobby said...
Also, 538 reviewed the The Rate of Domestic Violence Arrests Among NFL Players and it probably doesn't turn out to be what you think it is.
I had read this. Football players are highly disciplined professionals with a lot to lose and a lot of social support so I am not sure what you think expectations should be.
ARM,
From Bobby’s link…
“As I’ll show, arrest rates among NFL players are quite low compared to national averages for men in their age range — but there are some types of crimes that trail the pack significantly.”
And the domestic violence rate is almost half the national average. Remember when someone earlier called you an idiot? That’s why. You assumed without evidence that football players and boxers commit domestic violence at a disproportionately high rate. You had no basis for this other than the machinations between your ears.
So, why did you have such an errant and negative preconceived notion about this group of people? What is common among them that is unique? Gee, it doesn’t seem so unreasonable to wonder if maybe the basis of your bigotry is race based. No? Well, there is more evidence to support that charge than your charge that football players and boxers are more prone to physically abuse their partner. Seems like something on which you should ruminate. Idiot.
Your line of inquiry? There was no line of inquiry. You made bigoted assumptions about a group of people you don't like. Those assumptions have been proven false. Of course, now you pivot. 'It makes perfect sense why they wouldn't beat their wives more!' So, why did you assume they did in the first place?
Your hypothetical was based on completely unfounded assumptions! Assumptions that have now been shown to be WAY off base. That makes me look the fool? Hack. Try some intellectual honesty.
At an individual level this is obviously the expectation but statistically what is reasonable? Is a child molestation rate twice the national average acceptable for ARM to commit? Where would a reasonable line be drawn?
You see, I'm not saying he does molest children! It is just a hypothetical!
Condoleeza Rice for NFL Commissioner ?
Matt said...
Well, there is more evidence to support that charge than your charge that football players and boxers are more prone to physically abuse their partner.
I am beginning to suspect that you are either drunk or mentally defective. Where do I say this? You are fighting with someone in your head, some mythical bad liberal who wants to take your football away. I could give a fuck about the voices in your head. Log onto Daily Kos and you can find all the liberal bogeymen you want. Don't waste my time.
Also, in attempting to win your point you gloss over the complications in the linked article showing the unusually high rate of domestic abuse relative to other crimes, albeit in the context of a lower crime rate. As I said, football players are highly disciplined professionals with a very busy schedule and a lot of social support you would expect that overall crime rates would be low.
Matt said...
At an individual level this is obviously the expectation but statistically what is reasonable? Is a child molestation rate twice the national average acceptable
You are obviously not very familiar with statistics since you can't do them on a sample of one.
Matt humbly declares victory.
ARM,
Your very first comment...
AReasonableMan said...
When you train men for years to be violent, when violence is at the core of their profession, what are reasonable expectations?
Rough men have a very different way of thinking than the pussified men you meet every day in the office.
For nonessential violent professions, like boxing and football a case can be made that their time has passed.
9/8/14, 6:51 PM
But we are to believe you didn't write that because it has anything remotely to do with your opinion on the matter... none at all...
Whatever.
Anyone reading can scroll up and read what you wrote. You can lie to yourself but you can only convince yourself that your lies are the truth.
Instant replay is an NFL specialty. "After further review, the call on the field is reversed."
Matt you didn't respond to my point that domestic violence rates are in fact high amongst NFL players relative to their overall arrest rate.
I asked a hypothetical. You clearly just don't get the concept. When I was young boxing was a really big deal, the Muhammad Ali fights were one step down from the moon landing. Now, who really gives a fuck. I can see a future where the NFL fades away like boxing did. It loses relevance.
"Matt you didn't respond to my point that domestic violence rates are in fact high amongst NFL players relative to their overall arrest rate."
That's one hell of a spin job.
I did respond to your hypothetical, idiot. It was nonsensical as it was based on a false premise, stupid. A premise based on some yet undetermined prejudice you hold against football players and boxers. Why don't you like them? Too many minorities for your blood? Hey, it's just a hypothetical!
What I found to be the most shocking was that Ray Rice isn't strong enough to pick up his GF. She's not that fat. (Or was he just too lazy?)
Matt said...
That's one hell of a spin job.
No. It is the main point of the second figure in the article.
ARM, quit now while you're still merely a buffoon. You're rapidly turning into something worse.
Ok, ARM, tell me why you think it is significant. You think it is a very big deal. Tell me why.
Paul Zrimsek said...
ARM, quit now while you're still merely a buffoon. You're rapidly turning into something worse.
A fool like you?
Matt said...
Why don't you like them? Too many minorities for your blood? Hey, it's just a hypothetical!
Matt plays the race card. Well done Matt! You have now destroyed any future credibility you might have had on one of the main topics discussed on this site. You sure you haven't been drinking?
Matt and ARM are actually Gay lovers. So its just a little spat. Don't mind them.
AReasonableMan said...
Matt said...
Why don't you like them? Too many minorities for your blood? Hey, it's just a hypothetical!
Matt plays the race card. Well done Matt! You have now destroyed any future credibility you might have had on one of the main topics discussed on this site. You sure you haven't been drinking?
Whoosh! Right over your head...
Still waiting for you to address your really big concern regarding the 538 article...
rcocean, nah, I just get tired of ARM's incessant, brainless bullshit.
Matt said...
Ok, ARM, tell me why you think it is significant.
Because it says that you are so desperate to attack an imaginary figure that you didn't actually read the article beyond the sentence that you quoted. In fact it is complicated. Domestic violence is much higher than you would expect given the overall relatively low rate of criminality. But the overall rate of criminality is low, much lower than Cedarford might have predicted.
I regularly watch football, rather than obsess about libruls taking it away. Personally I can't see football remaining relevant down the road. Doesn't really affect me, I will be dead. But it has become old fashioned and this incident and the Hernandez murders don't help.
Blogger rcocean said...
Matt and ARM are actually Gay lovers. So its just a little spat. Don't mind them.
Matt was trying to 'turn' me but I resisted with all my will.
If Michael Sam is caught on video slugging his boyfriend in an elevator is that double-bad?
betamax3000 said...
If Michael Sam is caught on video slugging his boyfriend in an elevator is that double-bad?
No, that's called boxing, only it would have better ratings.
Re: "No, that's called boxing, only it would have better ratings."
THAT is funny.
“But the overall rate of criminality is low, much lower than Cedarford might have predicted.”
Or you, as evidenced by what you have written above. Funny you try to redirect it towards someone else… and Cedarford of all people. Why would you want your opinion and his to be seen as the same?
ARM, no where have I given any indicators as to whether or not I have read the article. Your earliest posts sure as hell pointed you out as utterly clueless to its existence. Laughably so.
Even now, despite your claim that the domestic violence rate being closer to the national average than other offenses is a very big deal, you still have failed to say why. How come? If it is a big deal, as you claim, you surely can explain why, right?
AReasonableMan said...
Blogger rcocean said...
Matt and ARM are actually Gay lovers. So its just a little spat. Don't mind them.
Matt was trying to 'turn' me but I resisted with all my will.
9/8/14, 11:03 PM
Do I detect ARM’s latent homophobia there? Hypothetically, of course.
Things got a little out of hand. It's just this war and that lying son of a bitch Johnson...
SPOILER ALERT
Funny. BOUNCE is broadcasting "Brewster's Millions" right now. The weaselly character who tried to cheat Richard Pryor's character in the end just had this exchange:
WARREN
"It's the committee to ban contact sports. Studies show that sanctioned violence has a detrimental effect on young people. I do a little legal work for the committee."
BREWSTER
"Not messin' with baseball, are you?"
WARREN
"Baseball? No. Boxing, football,
ice hockey - the truly barbaric sports."
Boxing and football the first two sports mentioned.... too funny. I now have a face to go with ARM: Stephen Collins as a slimy dweeb.
Quick, ARM, find the studies he is referencing! They might help your position.
I know, I know... it's a movie. It's fiction. But that hasn't stopped you before!
A camera there or it didn't happen.
Dragging her by the hair?
Where's Debbie Wassername Schultz when we need her?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob90L7Lh1lY
I am a bold deceiver.
You fools.
This is a link to more.
My point is real clear. Dudes who beat the shit out of women like oh, I don't know, Ray Rice , or Jackson Browne, or Bob Seger are complete fucking scumbags.
This is Bill Clinton/Ted Kennedy level evil.
You wanna beat off at your computer trying to play word games and try to posit facts that don't exist... Knock yourself out. You're not bringing any facts to the table there junior, just whacka whacka whacka.
@Donald. I suspect if Ray Rice would have been heard saying: "better put some ice on that", he may have been home free.
Someone mentioned up-post regarding Rice dragging her out of the elevator.
To me that is more telling than the left hook. Once she was down and out, why didn't he lift her up and carry her out? Nope, drug her out of the elevator like the morning trash. What a depraved mindset.
Just saw Coach Harbaugh's comments this morning - the old and the new. What a tool.
I would think, ARM, that the correlation is more cultural than professional.
There is also evidence that men get beaten more often by women.
After seeing the video, that was one hell of a punch if he put her out cold. Unless she was blackout drunk and just collapsed, but I haven't heard her or anyone else suggest that was the case.
If a woman (or a smaller man) slaps you, I'm not one of those people who thinks you can't slap them right back--but hitting them a magnitude harder is and should remain criminal. It looks like she may have slapped him earlier, then after several seconds (beyond any time to claim self defense on his part) he clocks her right out, and has to drag her unconscious body out of the elevator.
Obviously she's in some bad mental state to stay with a guy who does that, but what must go through his mind when he's just gone and slugged her so bad he has to drag her through a public place? There's no part of even an abuser's mind that can think "yes, this is going swimmingly."
I'm no criminal lawyer but doesn't it seem like the evidence here should be enough to charge him with a crime even if his wife won't testify? This is a pretty vicious assault to let him off with some anger management class.
The NFL can suspend all they want, but this is more a matter for the authorities. The League should be concentrating on reducing concussions and getting rid of astroturf and stuff they're more qualified to deal with. Deciding domestic violence cases isn't one of them.
"garage mahal said...
Watching your hero go down in flames is no reason to take that anger out on me."
LOL
"My comment about the "lesson" learned was obviously that the NFL doesn't care about domestic violence until there is a video of it. Dumbass."
Sure it was.
When does Ray Rice sue the casino and the liquor company that is responsible for the drinks they consumed?
Fortunately, through his spokesmumbler, the President has brought moral clarity to the situation by informing us that Ray Rice is not a Real Man.
What is even more disturbing than the NFL's mishandling of this situation, is the criminal justice system's seemingly bizarre and inadequate response to the altercation between Rice and his fiancé. It's got to further erode public confidence in these local, state, and national institutions critical to the maintenance of orderly and civilized personal conduct. What are the larger implications of the criminal justice system's poor handling of this matter. What went wrong? Is it an isolated event (according to the prosecutor's statement, this case was handled no differently than that of other first time offenders in NJ) or reflective of a larger pattern of inadequacies characteristic of our criminal justice system.
What is even more disturbing than the NFL's mishandling of this situation, is the criminal justice system's seemingly bizarre and inadequate response to the altercation between Rice and his fiancé. It's got to further erode public confidence in these local, state, and national institutions critical to the maintenance of orderly and civilized personal conduct. What are the larger implications of the criminal justice system's poor handling of this matter. What went wrong? Is it an isolated event (according to the prosecutor's statement, this case was handled no differently than that of other first time offenders in NJ) or reflective of a larger pattern of inadequacies characteristic of our criminal justice system.
Clinton taught us well.
You cannot expect the league officials to have seen it sooner -- it was on the same server as Lois Lerner's email.
added:
no kidding
"At this point, WHAT DIFFERNCE DOES IT MAKE?" -- HC, abuse defender
Having the NFL become the governing authority on a domestic violence case is a problem not just because the League doesn't have the apparatus or expertise to adjudicate such matters (this isn't like an accusation that a ref is taking bribes) but also the NFL has an obvious conflict of interest. Star athletes are moneymakers for their team and the sport itself, so there's an obvious incentive to sweep wrongdoing under the rug.
Look at how Michael Vick went back to playing after a short period, or in the NCAA's case, Penn State being back in the bowl early. Can you blame such organizations? They have to look outraged enough that their fan base doesn't get TOO disgusted, but ultimately they want their performers and teams bringing in the money. I have little doubt that Ray Rice will be back playing in the NFL within a couple years, as a "rehabilitated man."
Now that the video — Ray Rice within the confines of an elevator slugging his fiancée and dragging her out the door — has been seen by the ... irayrice.blogspot.com
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