What to say about 9/11?
ADDED: Obama's speech last night pushes us to think of the day in terms of an intensely active, present fight, rather than to look back on the time when we were caught unaware, when we were overtaken by the will of others and stunned as we went about what seemed to be another normal day.
September 11, 2014
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Remember those who died and were injured and those who tried valiantly to save as many as possible in the inferno. The heroes who stood against the terrorists represent the best of our country. "Let's roll!"
I know what Obama would say: he killed bin Laden, he ended the global war on terror, and his planet began to heal.
Thank God it wasn't worse.
Keep in your thoughts today the 2752 souls who didn't get the chance to see a minute of these last 13 years.
"Thank God it wasn't worse."
Agreed, but the next one might be. Imagine how horrible a biological attack could be. We must not stick our head in the sands.
So the prez thinks ISIL is not Islamic and not a state.
The man is alarmingly divorced from reality. No true Scotsman indeed!
If I had the time and inclination, I'd maybe go back and look at Obama's Sept 11 speeches of the last 6 years.
I'd be curious to know what he was saying 2 years ago, 4 years ago, back when today's troubles were brewing.
"I'd be curious to know what [Obama] was saying ... back when today's troubles were brewing.
I bet he was voting "Present".
The big takeaway we should have gotten after 9/11--and perhaps we did--was that our intelligence organizations and domestic security needs to be improved to head off more opportunities for such thugs to attack us. 9/11 was awful, but with unconventional weapons and a determined enemy we could have faced something much worse--and imagine what our overreaction might have been to a series of attacks that left hundreds of thousands or even millions killed? A citizenry in panic will do some awful things.
We have headed off a lot of attacks before and since 9/11, and it's true the bad guys only have to be lucky once. But any way we can improve our chances to discover and stymie their plans, with reasonable tradeoffs, ought to be taken.
I was tired of it the second time it came around, but it's ratings gold.
Steady yourself for the first of two monents of silence coming up.
In a thousand years or so the year will consist of nothing but silence, in honor of the minutes of various catastrophes that have added up to fill the day by then.
>> A citizenry in panic will do some awful things.
Maybe some awful things need to be done.
"Absent Companions!"
particular Rick Rescorla, a true hero...
In a thousand years or so the year will consist of nothing but silence, in honor of the minutes of various catastrophes that have added up to fill the day by then.
"What we do in Life echos in Eternity"
- Maximus Decimus Meridius
The real problem here is that Obama is responding politically in an effort to stop his poll numbers from falling through the floor. Is this man capable of learning from his mistakes? I don't think he is, after spouting BS for the last 6 years in the war on terror, is he now ready to face reality? Probably not as he refuses to even name who the enemy is in this war.
There it is! The moment of silence on Imus. Great radio.
"Absent Companions!"
particular Rick Rescorla, a true hero..."
Hear, Hear.
I just hope we get through the day today without another event,.
Good thing Obama had his War Speech on September 10: inoculates him from any happenings on the Eleventh.
Who can forget Michael Moore's web posting that they went after the wrong city. That they were killing the wrong people, these guys were Democrats, mostly!
Brando said...
The big takeaway we should have gotten after 9/11--and perhaps we did--was that our intelligence organizations and domestic security needs to be improved to head off more opportunities for such thugs to attack us.
I think the biggest takeaway is our vulnerability to asymetric warfare. It only took 19 men to hijack those four airliners. I doubt if more than 50 people actually worked on the plot. It probably didn't cost more than a million dollars in total but did an estimated trillion dollars of damage to the US. The intelligence agencies were still primarily focused on nations (and doing a pretty poor job of it). Never underestimate the damage a small group of determined fanatics can do and how hard it is to stop them.
The Albuquerque Journal's headline this morning:
"OBAMA VOWS TO DESTROY ISIL"
But that is not what I heard him say, nor apparently did the Journal since the rather short and tepid article below the headline did not back it up either.
And the next attack could come from anywhere. Years ago there was a planned attack from the Philippines that was narrowly averted - really accidentally averted, iirc. ISIL could destroy itself (and quite likely will, if it is not destroyed by others first), and the danger still will not go away, so ISIL as such is not the problem. It is just one boil of a much larger infection that has burst open and spilled pus.
The local news is replaying the moment of silence, more great radio.
Oh wait, that's the second moment of silence, not a replaying of the first.
Now the national news is reporting on the just-happened moment of silence.
"As anybody can see, we are serious people."
Another oldie but goody. Fire can't weaken steel. That's why blacksmiths waste all that money on coal to heat up horseshoes before reshaping them, because they fell for right-wing propaganda.
Am I the only one who is worried about Islamic terrorists in Africa getting their hands on some people infected with Ebola?
"Never underestimate the damage a small group of determined fanatics can do and how hard it is to stop them."
In the future, these groups will have access to powerful technology. I have a pessimistic view of civilization's long term chances for survival.
Here’s the thing on this whole terrorism deal.
These guys hate us, and they always will. We are the great satan (LC deliberate). Moreover, they don’t play by any sort of civilized rules. They have no scruples, conscience, or ethics. They will lie, steal, behead, torture, rape, or do anything else that they think will enable them to achieve their misguided and evil objectives. WE MUST UNDERSTAND THIS.
So – to fight them, we need one thing: overwhelming force. I apologize in advance to all of the leftist “humanitarians” out there, but we should have NO rules of engagement; there should be NO LIMITS on what our military can do to conquor these guys.
These people would kill us all in the blink of an eye if they were able to. We should adopt the same philosophy and simply eliminate the threat. If Syria doesn’t like it, tough. It’s all about controlling the Levant, baby. If you ain’t with us, you’re agin’ us … and you lose.
Sorry for the militaristic rant, Professor, but that – for damn sure – is how it is.
"I have a pessimistic view of civilization's long term chances for survival."
Especially against an ideology that doesn't really need the infrastructure of a civilization to thrive, on its own terms, anyway.
Destruction just paves the way for what they want, it is not an inconvenient phase of the conflict to be cleaned up later by the victor.
"Never underestimate the damage a small group of determined fanatics can do and how hard it is to stop them." Flag this for November 4th.
And yet our govt is still talking about how Islam is a religion of peace.
Willful disbelief indeed.
"Maybe some awful things need to be done."
Depends on what those awful things are, doesn't it?
Lena Durham America looks back.
The hijackers exploited the conventional wisdom of the time, that people would only take over an airplane because they wanted to go somewhere not on the manifest. That C.W. did not exist at the end of the day, as the passengers of Flight 93 understood. Those people began the American counterattack.
Am I the only one who is worried about Islamic terrorists in Africa getting their hands on some people infected with Ebola?
Seems like an easy way to get rid of Islamic terrorists.
This silly war on Islamic Jihadists who steal stuff has always been seen as a distraction from Obama and Pelosi's goal of stealing and redistributing stuff here at home.
There's a video on youtube called "The man in red bandanna" which is about one of the people killed on 9/11, Welles Crowther, a young man who led many out of one of the towers but finally died there himself still trying to help others. It's a story about just one person on that day - who he was and what he did but for me this one story is how I remember the day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwWzjjbIISw
In honor of the 13th anniversary of 9-11, President Obama is behaving like a pubescent.
NPR knew what to say. "On this day in history, ground was broken on the Pentagon in 1941, now this news."
For realz
"I have a pessimistic view of civilization's long term chances for survival."
I do too, but not because I'm afraid Islamic extremists will destroy civilization, (they won't.)
"I do too, but not because I'm afraid Islamic extremists will destroy civilization, (they won't.)"
They release a biological agent and start a pandemic and they absolutely will. (And they'll claim it's Allah's wrath.)
I'm not sure the pandemic would spread in the US the way it would in the Mid-East. Look at the way Ebola patients gain strength in the US due to being fed and rehydrated intravenously. In other words there is a lot of knowledge here which would be applied while over there they would get rid of all the female nurses and all non-Muslim doctors and then chop off the heads of the remaining health care workers for not saving the life of the caliph and his family. It's strategy but not a good one for fighting a pandemic.
I'm thinking of the future, wildswan, though maybe not too distant future. A weaponized virus could wipe us all out. I am much more afraid of biologics than I am of nuclear weapons.
Immortality could be a real problem after the solar system destroys itself in 5 billion years.
For Todd Beamer and the other heroes on flight 93, let us not lay down as dhimmi while other seek to destroy our country.
That Obama doesn't immediately act to completely lock down our southern border and comb through our illegal immigrants to find and isolate those that would attack us is a complete dereliction of duty.
On December 7, 1944 we had just secured Peleliu after two and half months of fighting with several more bloody island landings to go. On that date, I imagine America more focused upon winning the war against Japan than memoralizing Pearl Harbor.
Why remember it when we're still knee-deep in the reality of the stagnant aftermath?
It's been 13 years and 3000 US deaths have turned into over a million.
My most depressive guesstimate in 2001 was that a decade had just been flushed down the toilet, but this Forever Situation that degrades the quality and structure of life as a whole, like having a blood cancer? With people who ruin their lives and the lives of their loved ones for generations by trafficing in five-hundred-yr-old grievances and wet dreams?
No. Won't be refreshing the memory other than praying for global health, mental and structural. I'm fine with forgiving and forgetting if it would further that aim. If people helping each other during 911 is inspirational, then let's do that without needing the wake up call of imminent demise.
The hope with ISIS is that it inspires near universal condemnation not limited to the West. Everybody seems to be tired of their bs and looking for a better way.
On 9-11-01 19 men armed with utility knives bought at Walmart did us approximately the same amount of immediate damage as Imperial Japan did with a carrier task force 12-7-41.
I am not sure whose idea it was. Reports say that Bin Laden financed it with about $400,000, and Khalid Sheik Mohammed was project manager.
Asymmetric warfare indeed. Psychology, not military thinking. The difficulty was to find and train 20 individuals willing to commit suicide together in a very deliberate way, and they had to be fairly sophisticated and well educated men, i.e., also relatively well off with a lot to live for, you would think.
The long term damage, we have inflicted on ourselves since, and it will stay with us in the form of trade and travel restrictions, new agencies like the NSA and DHS with the TSA, etc., that will never go away, but keep growing as agencies will.
And with all this, and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to "keep America safe," we still have failed to resolve the problem.
"13 years later."
Israel has had an existential threat hanging over it for 66 years and counting.
Hagar's pessimism appears sadly appropriate.
The lessons of that day have long since been forgotten by most, if they were learned at all. The only thing remaining is the scar, a memory of pain and anger that was hot but brief, and not strong enough for us to finish the job. Instead, we have lapsed back into complacency. The orcs are once again on the march, and the Grima Wormtongues who lead us are only reluctantly stirred to our defense, unable to even speak the name of those who want us dead.
"They won't" - Robert Cook
Am I the only one here who is amazed at Robert Cook's certainty?
How many EMPs would it take to fuck up our civilization pretty good? Maybe only one. That's only one way. They already succeeded in shutting down air traffic.
The Holy Roman Empire was destroyed because nobody wanted to fight anymore, and these guys burned Rome's breadbasket surrounding the Middle Sea, and completely disrupted naval commerce there, and cut off papyrus from Egypt, and ancient version of an EMP because the Holy Roman Empire ran on paper they way we do on computers.
I am sure before it happened, Robertus Tiberius Cookius was assuring his friends at the circus, while unknowingly eating one of his last rations of bread, that Rome could not fall into centuries of darkness.
Yet somehow it did.
Yes, an EMP would likely kill millions.
And that wouldn't take much. A nuclear device and a missile.
So, so over it.
God, Damn America.
Do it again.
And keep doing it until they come to their senses.
No mercy.
Fuck 'em all,...
The 2780 something people lost on 9/11 are a very small number and the affected area was about 4 acres.
2780 would be considered a light days losses in WWII, even well under certain bad days in WWI or the US Civil War.
Whole cities are destroyed in wars, so the claim that 1 block lost is the most horrendous happening is pretty sad.
As rhhardin said - if all the mandated moments of silence add up because they are never allowed to fade away, soon enough, all our day will be spent in silence, every day. Even the Hero Families of the Hero Victims of 9/11 seem to be sick of the ritual of spending more than 2 hours reading off the dead. As the KSM trial started, they had a large number of 9/11 families and media in a NYC teleconference room. When they realized the indictment was going to drone out the names yet again, each one, most the audience left.
With the passage of time, all that "hero mythology" Bush, Giuliani, the Media started about each victim of 9/11 a hero, each person in hero uniform obviously a hero, hero sniffer dogs and so on.....looks pretty pathetic. Generally, in wars, if soldiers are not permitted to pillage and rape and get rich, the Ruling Elites need to tell the drones what Heroes they are.. While the generals and companies and banks and leaders like Giuliani get rich off war.
In WWI, at least the German soldiers got "Heroes-Only Brothels and train cars and sausages just for them." and British hero war dogs got extra rations of meat that loyal Britons were supposed to deny their pets so the fat and bones could be used for making explosives.
"...an EMP would likely kill millions.
"And that wouldn't take much. A nuclear device and a missile."
Yep, not much at all. I'm scared. I'm sure the Islamic extremists have no trouble getting nuclear devices and the missiles to deliver them.
As to Vermont Tim's "amazement" at my "certainty," well, nothing's certain. I'm not certain the alien mother ships from Independence Day won't appear over our cities one morning...but I think it improbable to the point of virtual impossibility.
It is more probable that Islamist extremists could somehow acquire a nuclear device and find a way to deliver it to our shores and set it off in an American city than that the alien mother ships will appear to destroy us...but not probable enough that I am worried about it. (And one such device going off would not "destroy our civilization," as destructive as it might be locally. It it could, our society is much more rotted apart and near collapse than even I think it is.)
There are manifold other crises that may destroy our civilization more probable than our destruction at the hands of jihadi hordes.
If only our country was good enough for Obama to lead.
If only the world were as simple as it seemed while sucking on a splif back in Hawaii.
"Yep, not much at all. I'm scared. I'm sure the Islamic extremists have no trouble getting nuclear devices and the missiles to deliver them. "
I.R.A.N.
And I'm not worried now. Twenty years? I'm plenty worried.
Original Mike:
Where is I.R.A.N. going to get them?
Robert: Imagine. Iran wants to attack us, but wants deniability. They give a terrorist group one bomb and one missile.
My Mom was flying on a plane today. So that's what she does. I'm like, "Mom! It's 9/11! Worst day in the world to fly on an airplane." And she's just giggling.
"Robert: Imagine. Iran wants to attack us, but wants deniability. They give a terrorist group one bomb and one missile."
Why do you assume they want to attack us? I don't think they have ever had any interest in attacking us. What would be their motive? What could they hope to achieve or gain?
And you didn't answer the question where Iran would get a nuke.
We live in a difficult and dangerous world. Pretending otherwise doesn't help.
Whatever we do will be at least a partial failure, maybe worse.
But you have to do what you can.
If I pause for a moment I can still feel what I felt when I realized what had happened on 9/11. Can't you? For 13 years we've been pretty successful at keeping the threat away from home -- but that won't last forever.
"Why do you assume they want to attack us? I don't think they have ever had any interest in attacking us. What would be their motive? What could they hope to achieve or gain?"
You're as naive as our President.
"And you didn't answer the question where Iran would get a nuke."
Yes, I remember, you don't think they're building one. I've forgotten what you think all the nuclear facilities are for.
Besides, Iran is only a contemporary example. Fifty years from now it might be China. Hell, it might be Scotland. But most likely of all are terrorists. The point is, preparation and a strong defense are called for. In the specific case of EMP, common sense preparation is possible. I fear biologics are a much tougher case.
Cook, there is lots of stuff one could do, short of a nuke, to seriously harm us. For one thing, we could elect a Chavez.
"You're as naive as our President."
That's an evasion, not an answer.
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