Althouse: "Ramos was tied up at the woman's funeral. Mourners threw him into the open grave..."

৭ জুন, ২০১৩

"Ramos was tied up at the woman's funeral. Mourners threw him into the open grave..."

"... placed the woman's coffin in it and filled the grave with earth."

৪৭টি মন্তব্য:

Charlie বলেছেন...: I'm guessing the crime rate is pretty low in that neighborhood.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:১৪ AM
madAsHell বলেছেন...: Seventeen years old??
I'm not sure if he was guilty, but he must have pissed-off the entire community in his brief time on earth.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:১৮ AM
edutcher বলেছেন...: In Britain, that was once called "rough justice".

They do not take the attitude criminals must be understood, apparently.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:২১ AM
sinz52 বলেছেন...: What would happen if officials exhumed Ramos' body, did a DNA test on him and discovered he was innocent of the crime?; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:২৪ AM
Big Mike বলেছেন...: @sinz, that was my first thought, too.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:২৭ AM
Ruth Anne Adams বলেছেন...: The death penalty as a specific deterrent...that guy will never murder again.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:২৯ AM
Oso Negro বলেছেন...: I have an old friend who is passionately opposed to the death penalty. She frequently posts about death row cases, often excoriating Gov. Perry for failure to intervene. I have read about a number of the cases, and invariably end up feeling that the punishment barely suited the crime. I have reminded her that older alternatives to the death penalty, kin justice, as neatly illustrated in this case, are much blunter instruments, and far more likely to put down the wrong fellow. Was this kid guilty? Who can say? Apparently it was not a good village in which to be perceived so.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:৩০ AM
AllenS বলেছেন...: Also, in the article:

Also in Potosi, residents of the Quechua indigenous community of Tres Cruces on Wednesday stoned to death a suspected thief and burned his accomplice alive, Barrios said. The official said the two had earlier robbed a car and killed its driver.

What's not to like about this place?; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:৩৪ AM
rhhardin বলেছেন...: It sends a strong message.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:৩৪ AM
Unknown বলেছেন...: Wow.
It's hard to imagine a crime that fits that punishment.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:৩৫ AM
Fprawl বলেছেন...: My friends Mom, age 92 in Auburndale Fl, was threatened with an axe at her home, tied up, and robbed. She is a favorite in the neighborhood, and is quite a youtube sensation from the local newsfeed. One of the unintended consequences of her ordeal is that the neighbors are now on high alert and armed. I pity the Pizza driver that gets the wrong address after dark. He is likely to get a pitchfork up his ass.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:৩৮ AM
Fprawl বলেছেন...: My friends Mom, age 92 in Auburndale Fl, was threatened with an axe at her home, tied up, and robbed. She is a favorite in the neighborhood, and is quite a youtube sensation from the local newsfeed. One of the unintended consequences of her ordeal is that the neighbors are now on high alert and armed. I pity the Pizza driver that gets the wrong address after dark. He is likely to get a pitchfork up his ass.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:৩৯ AM
sakredkow বলেছেন...: I'm not sure if he was guilty, but he must have pissed-off the entire community in his brief time on earth.

Rape and murder will do that to you.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:৩৯ AM
Vet66 বলেছেন...: What is the politically correct response to this? Better a hundred guilty go free rather than one innocent die? My money is on the peasants knowing the truth. This area is considered the "Flyover" part of Bolivia. It gives the political elite something to consider as they bask in the glow of themselves and their tenuous hold on power pondering the real power of the pitchfork carrying, Bible thumping, foreigner fearing rabble in the hinterlands. Think "French Kiss!"; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:৩৯ AM
Sydney বলেছেন...: I'm guessing they don't trust their justice system to do the right thing.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:৪১ AM
Robert Cook বলেছেন...: Ruth Anne Adams said...
"The death penalty as a specific deterrent...that guy will never murder again."

You don't know if he ever murdered a first time.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:৪৮ AM
KCFleming বলেছেন...: In our country, the killer will get endless funded appeals, law professors will wax eloquent bout him on CNN, college kids will protest"#Free[insert killer] with candlelight vigils, and taxes will pay for his gender reassignment surgery.

And feminists will call comedians rapists.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:৫০ AM
virgil xenophon বলেছেন...: You'd think people would learn about Bolivia; first Butch & the Sundance Kid, then Che, and now this guy. They's battin' ZERO.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৭:৫৪ AM
Eric the Fruit Bat বলেছেন...: My concern is the two of them are going to show up at heaven at exactly the same instant.

Awkward.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৮:১১ AM
Larry J বলেছেন...: This is the kind of thing that happens when the people have no faith that their government will provide justice. We know nothing about the kid. Was he a consistent troublemaker? Why was he suspected of the crime? Did he have political connections that made him untouchable by the police?

People losing faith in their government seldom ends well. That's why recent events out of DC are so chilling. Yes, it can happen here.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৮:১১ AM
Mitch H. বলেছেন...: I fear I fall on the Robert Cook side of this one. As impressive and literary as this murder by the local mob might be - and it is, worthy of a Jacobean revenge play - it's still a lynching.

Even if the boy is guilty as sin - and he probably was - his execution still ought to have been via the legal apparatus and after a proper trial. A ravening mob is incapable of justice, regardless of the facts - and they almost never are capable of discerning those facts in the heat of the moment.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৮:২১ AM
KCFleming বলেছেন...: @Mitch
So it suggests there has been massive government failure to ensure swift justice in rural Bolivia.

And now that the US government cannot be trusted, we are heading down the same path.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৮:২৫ AM
cubanbob বলেছেন...: I have an old friend who is passionately opposed to the death penalty. She frequently posts about death row cases, often excoriating Gov. Perry for failure to intervene. I have read about a number of the cases, and invariably end up feeling that the punishment barely suited the crime. I have reminded her that older alternatives to the death penalty, kin justice, as neatly illustrated in this case, are much blunter instruments, and far more likely to put down the wrong fellow. Was this kid guilty? Who can say? Apparently it was not a good village in which to be perceived so."

Osso I'm curious. What was your friends reply?
The State exists in part to replace kin and clan justice. But that only works if the State is perceived as fair and impartial. But that is a lesson lost on too many people, especially on the left.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৮:৩৭ AM
carrie বলেছেন...: I bet that conduct has a big deterrent effect, I just hope that he was more than just a "possible" suspect. I'm pretty sure that that rapist/murderer will not make it to heaven.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৮:৪২ AM
carrie বলেছেন...: I bet that conduct has a big deterrent effect, I just hope that he was more than just a "possible" suspect. I'm pretty sure that that rapist/murderer will not make it to heaven.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৮:৪২ AM
Ann Althouse বলেছেন...: If they cared so much about the victim, how could they accept this murderer next to her dead body?

There's something rape-y about the 2 bodies in there together.

But I guess they loved the idea of him dying under her body, the torment in his mind, the empowering of her.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৮:৪৮ AM
Kelly বলেছেন...: In the article it said the police are the first to suspect the seventeen year old. I don't know how the Bolivia justice system works, but if they knew this could be the possible reaction of the town folk perhaps they should have taken the guy into custody. Or did the police have no problem with this outcome?; ৭/৬/১৩, ৯:০৬ AM
Birkel বলেছেন...: Why do so many here assume they know better than the people of the village? Was he found mid-act with more than proverbial blood on his hands? What knowledge do you who presume the "mob" wrong have to make such a case?

The internet sure does make people super-smart.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৯:১০ AM
Dumb Plumber বলেছেন...: এই মন্তব্যটি লেখক দ্বারা সরানো হয়েছে।; ৭/৬/১৩, ৯:১২ AM
Dust Bunny Queen বলেছেন...: Whether Ramos was guilty or not, the swift and certain justice of the community is certainly a deterrent to others who might be contemplating criminal acts.

Eggs.....Omelets

(oops...wrong account at first); ৭/৬/১৩, ৯:১৬ AM
Eric the Fruit Bat বলেছেন...: Zorba the Greek wasn't all dancing on the beach which kind of surprised me.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৯:১৬ AM
Tibore বলেছেন...: What Mitch H said. Everything.

"Tough on crime" should never, ever equal mob lynching. Whether a crowd had him pegged accurately or not is beside the point; there are too many cases where a mob does not get it right. That's why societies create a justice system. Even imperfect ones are a far better idea than an angry group of people meeting out retribution on their own.

This act should be appalling to any American. And yes, that is even after taking into account that a society may not have confidence in their police or justice system.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৯:৪৪ AM
Dust Bunny Queen বলেছেন...: This act should be appalling to any American. And yes, that is even after taking into account that a society may not have confidence in their police or justice system.

Or even HAVE a justice system. Not everyplace is America. Our ways do not have to trump every other society.

Is it appalling? Yes, by our standards. Do we want to have THIS system of justice? Not likely. However, if we have NO system or one that is so slanted that only a favored few get justice served, society will create its own system.

We should take note of this and be vigilant in keeping our society from trending this way. Into an atmosphere where people feel disenfranchised, don't TRUST the government to do what they are supposed to do, feel that they are being ignored or crushed by the system. Beware.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৯:৫২ AM
edutcher বলেছেন...: People here are confusing lynching with what might well be vigilantism in its purer state.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৯:৫২ AM
Palladian বলেছেন...: Mobs are always right when they choose to lynch someone!; ৭/৬/১৩, ১০:০৫ AM
Eric the Fruit Bat বলেছেন...: "I believe in America."

-- Amerigo Bonasera, The Godfather (1972); ৭/৬/১৩, ১০:০৮ AM
Birkel বলেছেন...: Palladian: are you willing to make the stronger statement, like some of those above, that mobs are always wrong?; ৭/৬/১৩, ১০:২২ AM
Eric the Fruit Bat বলেছেন...: "A riot is an ugly thing and I think that it is just about time we had one!"

-- Inspector Kemp, Young Frankenstein (1974); ৭/৬/১৩, ১০:২৭ AM
Mitch H. বলেছেন...: Why do so many here assume they know better than the people of the village?

Who says I know better? I would *like* to think of myself as that principled man yelling against the baying of the mob, but a man in a crowd is far too likely to be swept along with the passion of the mob. You can never be exactly sure what you'll do when your blood is up, and everyone around you is howling for the prisoner, the rope and the tree.

I fear the mob, because I know my rationality is a thin, fragile and easily shattered veneer. So yes, I'd give the devil the benefit of law, for my own soul's sake.; ৭/৬/১৩, ১০:৫৭ AM
Mitch H. বলেছেন...: edutcher, my definition of "lynching" is a vigilante act in which the entire community as a community participates.

This was eaten earlier by Blogger, hope it doesn't reappear after I re-wrote it:

Why do so many here assume they know better than the people of the village?

I don't assume I know better than the people of the village. I would like to think of myself as that man of principle who stands up to the forming mob, and argues for the law. That's a nice self-image, but to quote Jules, that shit ain't the truth. The truth is that I don't know what I'd do, in the midst of a crowd turning into a mob. I don't know myself well enough to say who I'd be when my blood's up and everyone around me is screaming for the prisoner, the rope and the tree.

I fear my rationality is a thin, fragile and easily shattered veneer over I know not what. So yes, I would give the devil the benefit of law, for my own soul's sake.; ৭/৬/১৩, ১২:০৩ PM
Astro বলেছেন...: What would happen if officials exhumed Ramos' body, did a DNA test on him and discovered he was innocent of the crime?

Official, standing in front of the townsfolk: "I have the DNA test results which show that -"
(Townsfolk go deathly quiet and tighten their grips on their clubs and rocks)
"- ahh - [looks around] - ahh, yes, I confirm that he was guilty."; ৭/৬/১৩, ১২:১৭ PM
Crunchy Frog বলেছেন...: Even if the boy is guilty as sin - and he probably was - his execution still ought to have been via the legal apparatus and after a proper trial.

Bolivia got rid of the death penalty in 1997.; ৭/৬/১৩, ২:২৯ PM
bagoh20 বলেছেন...: "What would happen if officials exhumed Ramos' body, did a DNA test on him and discovered he was innocent of the crime?"

Circular firing squad. It's the only way to be sure.; ৭/৬/১৩, ২:৩৪ PM
Bayoneteer বলেছেন...: Meanwhile today Richard Rodriguez ( AKA The Nightstalker) who was sentenced to death for 13 murders back in the 1980's peacefully died in his bed last night in his death row prison cell. Go figger? So which society would you all say is more just?; ৭/৬/১৩, ৩:০৪ PM
Oso Negro বলেছেন...: Cubanbob - My death penalty activist friend is unable to accept my point, or even conduct a discussion on this matter in which alternative points of view can be considered.; ৭/৬/১৩, ৩:৫৭ PM
Birkel বলেছেন...: Nitch H:
Man of principle who knows nothing of the instant case, pontificating nonetheless.; ৭/৬/১৩, ১১:২৩ PM
David বলেছেন...: He was 17.

Did a court say it was ok for him to be buried alive as an adult?; ৮/৬/১৩, ৪:০৮ AM