I'm afraid the intense news coverage of these shooting sprees leads to more of the same, but I can see in the comments that people will keep referring to it off-topic if I don't make it a topic, and the fact that so many are dead and so many of the dead are children makes it harder to look away, even though if we look because so many are dead and because so many of the dead are children and if looking leads to more shooting sprees, then we are saying to the future killers that they should aim for children and keep shooting. Obviously, it's very easy to know where and when to find concentrated populations of children.
AND: Isn't it wrong for media to display photographs of the faces of terrified children?
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234 comments:
1 – 200 of 234 Newer› Newest»It doesn't make it hard to look away but hard to avoid hearing on the news.
It's entertainment.
Entertainment pulls audience.
Audience pulls advertising dollars.
LOL moment on the news: "President Obama is being kept informed on the shooting."
Already, my liberal FB friends are attempting to shift the blame away from the perp.
It's the fault of drug companies who conceal the side effects of drugs!
You know... those lousy drug companies!
I don't see the evidence for your oft-repeated contention that people do these things for the notoriety and are encouraged by blog attention. People do these things because they're fucking mentally ill sick evil monsters. I don't think that anyone contemplating shooting a school full of seven year olds to quiet whatever demons are in his head gives two shits whether the people at Althouse discuss it.
The rule for overseas deaths is "27 dead including 18 Americans."
Domestic deaths break down by adults and children.
It's all about audience.
But schools are a gun free zone. Trained and carefully screened teachers packing heat might help.
I have felt the anxiety of having a child in a locked-down school because of a weapon threat.
The motive here should be examined. Unfortunately, intense coverage provokes copycats.
Remember that a person is the subject of the verb to kill--but what kind of "person"?
This is terrible.
Some things cannot be explained.
Ghastly!
I wonder where this falls on that "Emotional Intelligence" list?
Pretty awful.
For those who will inevitably blame guns for this evil, a rundown of similar crimes in China, here. The weapons used? Knives, hammers and cleavers.
Fuck everything.
It looks like the shooter was one of the fathers of the kids!
Connecticut bans 'assault' weapons and has permits to PURCHASE as well as carry any handgun (the shooter had two handguns.)
And I have no doubt, being a liberal state, none of the teachers had a gun nor were trained on how to use one.
Speaking of which, the Homeland Security Video "Run Hide Fight" you can now see what total bullshit it is. There is no "shoot back" in their lexicon.
This only gets worse with all the attention it gets.
"If it bleeds it leads."
I share garage's reaction.
What else is there to say at the moment?
"I don't see the evidence for your oft-repeated contention that people do these things for the notoriety and are encouraged by blog attention."
Not really blog attention, but major media attention, and attention from the President, and so forth (as we saw for the Aurora killer).
"People do these things because they're fucking mentally ill sick evil monsters. I don't think that anyone contemplating shooting a school full of seven year olds to quiet whatever demons are in his head gives two shits whether the people at Althouse discuss it."
Evil/sick people may be destined to act out, but there are different ways to act out, and the copycat phenomenon is something. I'd rather if these people would just kill themselves with that idea that the people that they're angry at will feel sorry for them than that they get a more grandiose idea from a culture that feeds grandiosity.
In other words, you are in denial about this.
Also, we need to think of what we are doing to everyone in this culture. Rhhardin aptly calls this entertainment. It is served up as entertainment, and we need to examine our own souls.
The gunman is reported to be both 20 years old and the father of one of the students.
WTF?
Developing human life is disposable and interchangeable from conception to grave.
Does it make a difference if the individual can protest their extermination? Does it make a difference if the individual has established associations with other human beings? Where does the value of human life originate?
That said, may these victims rest in peace. Their lives were terminated prematurely without due process.
And since the issue of guns will certainly emerge, may only the criminals be armed, right?
Already, my liberal FB friends are attempting to shift the blame away from the perp.
Commenters at WaPo didn't waste time blaming the NRA.
I just don't understand the kind of generalized anger, hostility and murderous rage where you just start shooting up everyone and anyone. Horrific.
Maybe there is something in the drugs. I'd sure hate to lose my ability to protect myself and my family from maniacs like this.
While I wholeheartedly agree that this is a most horrific occurrence. I would also like to point out that millions of law abiding gun owners didn't kill anyone today. We cannot allow ourselves to be defined by the aberration.
First that idiot at the Oregon mall, now this. We don't know the motive for this, we just know that there are some seriously messed-up people out there these days. Are they just losers in today's economy who can't get a job? This guy apparently is a 20-year-old, the shooter at the mall was 22.
Stupid senseless stuff like this just makes me sick to my stomach.
I don't mind the entertainment, so long as it's understood as entertainment.
Instead, the nation takes an entertainment choice as a public policy choice. ("News")
I motto it as: women, you have to up your game. Some things that hold women's interests don't work out well in politics.
Now the local Rush affiliate has gone to full-time wretched shooting coverage.
I have to stream Rush online (KNEW 910 San Francisco, the modern age).
Its impossible to make jokes on a day like today. Thoughts & prayers go out to all of those kids, their families, and friends. Unbelievable.
Rhhardin aptly calls this entertainment. It is served up as entertainment, and we need to examine our own souls.
Maybe it entertains you and rhhardin, but I'll let Queen Victoria speak for me.
Fuck everything.
Bad day, garage? I say this in all sincerity, despite our difference, personal attacks, etc. I want you to be as happy, healthy, and prosperous as anyone. Keep up the good fight.
Crap like this reminds me that I cannot tell my kids that I love them too often. I hate being reminded of that.
I'm in favor of allowing teachers to carry. Just like I think the arming of some airline pilots is a good thing. Anything that puts some level of risk into the mix for a shooter is a good thing. uncertainity is our friend.
and yes, allowing teachers to potentially carry, would mean that teachers would be targeted, and near the entrance, but that by default means that some kid would not be the target and the shooting would be on the perimeter of the school instead of deep inside.
Via Zerohedge: CNN story
Beijing (CNN) -- Twenty-two primary school children were wounded in a knife attack Friday in central China, authorities said.
The attack took place at the entrance to the Chenpeng Village Primary School in Henan province, according to the public information department of Guangshan county, the area where the school is located. An adult was also wounded, it said.
Several of the children are in critical condition, the state-run website Chinanews.com said, citing local authorities.
Read more: Malala is face of global attacks on schools
Police say they have detained a suspect, a 36-year-old man from the village, state media reported.
Initial assessments suggest the man is mentally ill, Chinanews.com said, citing Guangshan authorities.
China was hit by a spate of knife and cleaver attacks that targeted school children in 2010.
A number of measures were introduced at the time, including increased security at schools across the country and a regulation requiring people to register with their national ID cards when buying large knives.
Awful. Awful.
Like the article said, they thought their town was the safest place.
"Rhhardin aptly calls this entertainment. It is served up as entertainment, and we need to examine our own souls."
I'm not entertained by this. I don't think anyone is entertained. But they are concerned and want to know more.
I won't defend the media but this is exactly the kind of thing they should cover. It's news.
We have descended into barbarism.
No one is to be trusted. Not even neighbors or other school parents.
Behave accordingly. Arm yourself.
I am heartsick over this event. This is a K-4 school. Little kids. Looking forward to Christmas soon. Now a bunch of funerals for wrecked families. Jesus God.
Maybe it entertains you and rhhardin, but I'll let Queen Victoria speak for me.
Have you noticed women going to movies and crying?
Entertainment is what holds your interest, not what makes you happy.
What else is there to say at the moment?
Probably nothing. I'm hiding from the the internet as best I can, I do know that.
Somebody figure out how many 5yo's die on a normal day.
The US population is huge.
It must be a lot.
Also, we need to think of what we are doing to everyone in this culture. Rhhardin aptly calls this entertainment. It is served up as entertainment, and we need to examine our own souls.
You are both right. God help us all. Garage is spot on this as well. Lets wait until al of the facts are in but, but there appears to be a pattern in all these mass shootings and it points to the need for nut control.
Like Humpty Dumpty, you can define a word in any way that suits your purposes. But Webster says:
a : amusement or diversion provided especially by performers
b : something diverting or engaging: as (1) : a public performance (2) : a usually light comic or adventure novel
So that's the way people can be expected to read what you wrote.
I'd like to see someone really analyze, with evidence, whether heavy media coverage does motivate or encourage these guys. Until then it's just speculation.
Not really blog attention, but major media attention, and attention from the President, and so forth (as we saw for the Aurora killer).
Actually, I would add blog attention to this. Also, social media. It's how a lot of us get our news, how we communicate these days. It's no wonder news like this spreads like wildfire. I think you're right, though, on the soul searching that needs to be done. We're really messed up.
Behave accordingly. Arm yourself.
So your solution to barbarism is to descend further into barbarism.
I was just saying the same thing to my co-workers.
It's not a coincidence that these atrocities happen one right after the other. Some kook who wants to go out in bullets and infamy.
You have to report the news, but I wish they would not report the name or face of the shooter and just say, "27 year old insane person who has daddy issues and needs public attention shot up a school/mall/theater."
Until then it's just speculation.
Althouse said it, therefore it must be true.
Isn't it wrong for media to display photographs of the faces of terrified children?
I don't understand the reasoning behind this.
And what Pete said.
If something like this happens I want to know about it and adapt that knowledge to my own moral life. I want to know if I can do any small thing to prevent something like this in my community. I want to pray for the victims and also for the perpetrators and for anyone suffering from mental illness, and be aware of any material ways I can help. I want to know how those in power are responding to the tragedy. Those are all reasons I want to be kept informed, and entertainment or some ugly gratuitous interest in destroyed lives has nothing to do with it.
it points to the need for nut control.
An area we need to investigate. Knoxville, TN, where I grew up, had a state psychiatric hospital that housed about 2,500 patients in the 1960s and early 1970s. Then de-institutionalization started. Now, it's closed.
Are there fewer psychiatric patients? Not from the information I can find. Where are these people? Walking the streets and living with the rest of us. Most are harmless, but our ability to identify and effectively deal with those that aren't is heavily handicapped. I worked in mental health off and on for 20 years. Unless, someone is an immediate danger, you can't get them committed. Of course, people who are immediate dangers don't think of visiting their therapist/psychiatrist as their first resort.
Self defense is anti-barbarism.
Gun free school zone means hundreds of unarmed victims available.
"Monsters are real."
"I'm not entertained by this. I don't think anyone is entertained."
Of course, one has to say that.
I was taught as a child that it was wrong to rubberneck at accidents. Morally wrong. But my parents had survived a great disaster that involved an explosion that killed many people who'd gone down to watch a fire.
Women like the faces of terrified children.
So your solution to barbarism is to descend further into barbarism.
Barbarism is how you behave, not whether you're armed or not. Not protecting yourself is allowing the barbarians to win. Just ask the Romans.
I saw the image, and I thought of this one.
Think before you click. Were you right?
I was hoping against hope the fatality number reported was wildly off, as is the case sometimes. No such luck it doesn't appear. Looking at pictures of those kids faces outside the school just takes your breath away.
As for our sensitive, compassionate media, never forget, "If it bleeds, it leads". They'll pound on this till Christmas.
2 incidents about 40 years ago really turned me off journalism. A school bus in CA went off an overpass and good old ABC News with Harry Reasoner and Baba Wawa made sure there was a shot of all the bodies of the kids laid out under a tarp with their feet sticking out - and a gout of blood on every one of those feet.
The other was an incident where a woman was showing up to surprise her husband for lunch, not knowing he'd just been murdered. Hawwy and Baba made sure there was a nice, tight shot of the woman's face coming apart as the cops gave her the news.
Every time I see Bonnie Bedelia flatten William Atherton in "die Hard", I think of all the "journolists" who should get the same thing.
Freder Frederson said...
Behave accordingly. Arm yourself.
So your solution to barbarism is to descend further into barbarism.
No, civilization arms itself to keep the barbarians in line.
After all, when seconds count, the police are just moments away.
I saw the image, and I thought of this one.
I thought of the shooting of the Amish kids at their school in Lancaster County, PA six years ago.
They should not print photos of the children's terrified faces. Devastating.
Of course, one has to say that.
One only has to say that lest one seem to agree w/ you and rhhardin.
How much time did you spend watching tv coverage of the Kennedy assassination back in the day? Blockbuster ratings, right? Must've been faaaabulously entertaining.
Look, you can say people find stories like this "compelling", but you're just being dickish when you insist on this twisted definition of "entertainment" so that you can seem coolly intellectual.
It seems like you've been grading exams recently.
Gun free school zone means hundreds of unarmed victims available.
How much time did you spend watching tv coverage of the Kennedy assassination back in the day? Blockbuster ratings, right? Must've been faaaabulously entertaining.
The closed work because the mail girls couldn't function.
I went flying.
Think before you click. Were you right?
No. I thought of this instead.
What else is there to say at the moment?
Probably nothing. I'm hiding from the the internet as best I can, I do know that.
Amen, brother. Or stick with dogshaming.com .
I agree with Althouse.
These people are very fucked up, but they want the country to stand at attention for them, and we always do.
These kind of people have always been with us, but it's pretty recent that they started shooting up schools, malls, and workplaces.
Been there when a student pulled out a 357 magnum and shot up an open concept classroom/pod in 1991. Watched it unfold 10 feet away from me in the classroom over a low bookcase. Post traumatic Stess Syndrome as I type. Chewing Xanax. There but for the Grace of God go I.
Remember when the boomers told us that replacing religion with "free love" doesn't and won't hurt anybody?
And let's get the marriage counselors in this forum to tell us how much they see porn hardening the hearts of husbands and fathers.
But I suppose we're not yet ready to have those conversations.
We'd rather talk about the means used by the poor sick souls, than to talk about how the souls got sick.
Apparently, our local FOX affiliate is saying it could be a terrorist act.
Nice.
Want to say more. Can't type. 6 report cards till I retire. Hurry down those days.
The MSM had a business arrangement with terrorists, where they featured the daily US fatalities that the terrorists then found it worthwhile to supply.
Maybe the MSM has a business arrangement with nutballs too.
Dollars are dollars.
Our craven media is finding the survivors of previous shootings and putting these poor people on the air as cheap emotion filler between the current bits of news. "Could you tell me how this shooting makes you feel about losing your daughter in Columbine?".
News seems to be getting even worse. Closer to 30 people now, and a body was found at the shooters home. His wife?
What Erika said.
I see no way to prevent the sensationalism of media when tragedies like this to occur consistent either with the first amendment or the practical matter of smartphones able to shoot video combined with the internet to disseminate it. I would be okay with at least blotting out the faces of the children in this cases for the broadcast news and major print media, consistent with other restrictions on publicly identifying underage victims and offenders.
Whether the wall to wall coverage and notoriety encourages copycat killers, I suspect that in some cases it does. Sadly, the nation will probably know this assholes name, just like they do for several other mass killings.
The sad reality is that tragic events like this are impossible to prevent at all places at all times. In a country of 300 million, there will always be a few nutcases. In 1927, there was a school massacre with even more casualties, and I suspect this will not be the last.
Horrible. Stay tuned for the gun control outcry.
I think the cat's already out of the bag in terms of copycats. It's newsworthy, we have a right to be informed, the media has a responsility to inform us.
What goes wrong is the manner of the coverage - 24/7 microscopic look at the perp and victims, the suffering of the survivors, endless fingerpointing.
Schools are gun free zones. You want to change that, change the law. Then you and Keystone can play Keystone Kops all you want.
"Gun free zones" being scenes of multiple mass shootings would indicate that the law does not work.
At all.
The victim back in New Jersey is the shooters mother, supposedly.
chickelit said...
The gunman is reported to be both 20 years old and the father of one of the students.
WTF?
Well, kids in that school are likely between 5 to 9 years old, so the math works. He could've become a father as late as 15 years old and have a child in that school. It happens all too often.
We simply don't know enough about what happened and why to make any intelligent comments other than to express horror. I lived in Colorado when Columbine happened. The death toll here is twice as high. As a grandfather with 4 young grandchildren (3 of them elementary school age), I can't begin to imagine the grief those families are going through. Their world has been gutted.
It's very odd to go to the alleged shooter's webpage, and watch in real time as the number of shares of his profile picture increases.
That would be facebook page, sorry.
So much conflicting info coming in but now it's being reported that the shooters father is dead in New Jersey and the moher worked at this school, also dead.
You can just as easily argue that this monster got his inspiration from Beslan as from Columbine.
I was hoping against hope the fatality number reported was wildly off, as is the case sometimes.
Me too. CNN.com was reporting up to 20 people total about a half-hour ago, and the thought of fewer kids being killed actually allowed me to take a breath. But, looks like the AP number was accurate so far.
This is why good people should concealed carry. Maybe an armed teacher could have pinned the murderer down and slowed him down.
Ah, there we go. Let's arm children again.
Because there are no adults in schools.
@Madison Man
Apparently that's not the right dude. He is facebooking that it's not him.
Surfed, there's still joy in the world.
He could've become a father as late as 15 years old and have a child in that school. It happens all too often.
A 15 year old impregnates someone is own age and they both die 5 years later?
Is the kid a survivor?
"Schools are gun free zones."
Obviously not. That is delusional, and that delusion is getting people killed.
The media didn't let us see the bodies on 9/11. They didn't want us to watch them chose to end their lives by jumping.
Make us mad, don'tcha know, awaken the flyover states.
This, kids, well, it's for the children.
"I saw the image, and I thought of this one."
I'd already thought of that comparison, and there was quite a bit of discussion about the ethics of running that photograph in the press (and not merely because the child is naked).
Shouting Thomas said...
Already, my liberal FB friends are attempting to shift the blame away from the perp.
It's the fault of drug companies who conceal the side effects of drugs!
You know... those lousy drug companies!
Yes, because these drugs make you think of killing children first as the primary side effect.
Bob--thank you for sharing that! I think I just may use it in my classroom-my preschoolers will love it!
The evidence on copycat crime is that people copy the kind of crime that gets attention but they are already people who will commit a crime. So to me that means we should not give attacks on children publicity, scientifically speaking. However who can not pay attention to something like this? And it seems that the first person works out what will attract our attention - no matter how little we want to encourage these crazy atrocities by paying attention. Then the others copy until it wears out. Then a pause. Then some fresh atrocity. My idea is that the papers should always review the prison time being done by the previous crazies and also never mention their names.
"27 year old insane person who has daddy issues and needs public attention shot up a school/mall/theater."
Might be a "mommy" issue - reports are now saying his mother is/was teacher at the school.
Apparently that's not the right dude. He is facebooking that it's not him.
Could he sue? Falsely IDed by name and photo as someone who went on a murderous rampage (at least on FoxNews.com right now -- cnn just has pictures of terrified children).
I always wonder why there is such a need to rush in and assess blame? Does that help?
"Ah, there we go. Let's arm children again."
That's just it. In your world, everyone's a child.
Erika, thank you for noticing. The Blind Boys have been seriously good for decades. It's difficult to remain depressed when you hear them.
leslyn: "Ah, there we go. Let's arm children again."
Patrick: "Because there are no adults in schools."
Patrick, it should be obvious by now that leslyn knows her position is logically flawed which is why she works so hard constructing the strawmen she needs to "win" the "argument".
Instapundit: "Meanwhile, get ready for cynical attempts to push gun control on the back of a tragedy, again. As William S. Burroughs once said, 'After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn’t do it.'"
Not sure if Burroughs is the best person to quote on this, seeing that Burroughs shot his wife to death with one of his guns.
Absolutely terrible--Insanity is, by its definition, not rational. It cant be explained. Terrible for the families of the victims, and the community. My heartfelt codolences.
SteveR said...
I always wonder why there is such a need to rush in and assess blame? Does that help?
Never let a crisis go to waste.
Or, as shilol likes to call it, liberal empathy.
Not sure if Burroughs is the best person to quote on this, seeing that Burroughs shot his wife to death with one of his guns.
WSB was blind drunk when he did that William Tell thing.
I think Insty has it right. Burroughs is a lefty hero.
I am heartsick and sending prayers and love for all impacted.
Jesus, they need to stop showing that poor little boy, the reporter asking him questions as if he was an adult. The child so obviously in shock, what is wrong with the adult with this kid allowing an interview?
Sickening, indecent.
@MM
No sure. But understandably this guy is none too happy about all this
This reminds me more of the Beslan terrorist incident than the incidents where kids shoot up their own schools. We had one of those kids shooting up his school incidents in Northeast Ohio (in Chardon, Ohio) earlier this year and the local newspaper covered that with more intensity than any other story I've ever seen them cover. That seemed wrong, and likely to create copycats.
And...now the facebook page is gone. The # of times the profile picture had been shared was up to 15K.
leslyn later: "And dishonest characterizations."
leslyn earlier: "Ah, there we go. Let's arm children again."
leslyn, queen of the dishonest characterizations seeks to lecture us on dishonest characterizations.
Chuck Toddler: We need to look at Hollywood and gaming.
Le sigh
leslyn,
In Israel THE TEACHERS ARE ARMED!
Why?
Cause the Palistinan terrorst do try to kill the children. They have done it many times.
So about this Keystone Kops thing... hell man, there are people do who stop mass killings with guns and they are NOT cops.
If you want to know more just do a bit of google. There are several websites that have documented cases of good people stopping nut jobs with guns at schools here in the U.S.
Beslan was genuinely horrific because the terrorists dragged it out for days--Then there was the Norwegian crazy that gunned down kids as they tried to flee the island--Beslan was terrorism pure and simple (and deadly)--Norway was insanity--I dont think the two incidents match up except for body counts.
She had her purse on the floor and down in it was a sliver 22 cal ladies pistol.
This is important. People in these positions who really care, will have to start seriously considering the risks and benefits of carrying a weapon illegally.
It's like kids and divorce.
You say you love your kids and would do anything for them.
Really? Would you quietly and stoically put up with un unhappy relationship? Would you carry a weapon illegally?
Most people don't even consider such thoughts. Once their personal comfort zone is challenged, they either want out or to throw up their hands and say, "What can I do?".
What can you do?
Anything you want to do, if you're brave enough to face the potential consequences.
Oh and leslyn...
In 1927 a nut used THREE BOMBS to kill 47 people at a school here in the U.S.
The nut didn't use a gun.
And you can see mass killings have gone on for quite some time!
The FB page of Ryan Lanza. I don't see any activity except the shares of his photo.
Althouse's logic on the copycat thing could use some work. Seems like she just doesn't want to talk about the obvious policy arguments in favor of fun control that will grow more appealing after a justified national obsession with this heinous crime.
"Isn't it wrong for media to display photographs of the faces of terrified children?"
It's news, what's the problem.
ok, ok, cheney/bush didn't want you to see coffins comin' back from the Iraq War.
btw Althouse, tell your flock not to attend movies which have scenes of terrified children. Or tv shows.
Indeed, there's censorship and self-censorship as freedom of speech/press marches on ...
Something a little nicer.
Paul said...
It looks like the shooter was one of the fathers of the kids!
This makes it seem worse to me. Not sure if it's because of me or because I'm thinking about the kids' inability to comprehend someone in that role would do such a thing.
@Bob Ellison - Thanx. Gonna' sign out from this thread and let the civilians have at it. School teaching is not for pussies. Even in Kindergarten. The xanies are kicking in and the PTSD is receeding. Gotta' be careful what I post. Deleted one I think. I'll re-check. 6 report cards to go. Don't want to screw the pooch at this stage of the game.
Saw some poor schlub with the same name as the killer posting after ths shootings, "It wasn't me! I was at work!"
How awful would it be to be confused for some psycho mass killer because you happen to have the same name and then get roped into it by media incompetence when they show your pic as the killer?
The picture of the killer is gone from Fox News now.
Obama is all set to speak on this tragedy.
Troubled Voter writes: Seems like she just doesn't want to talk about the obvious policy arguments in favor of fun[sic] control that will grow more appealing after a justified national obsession with this heinous crime.
How do you propose taking guns away from just the bad people? Ask them to gibve them up?
Oh goody! Obama is due to speak to us about the shootings any minute now! And Speaker Bohner has ordered some flags pulled half-way down!
This terrible tragedy is going to provide a lot of material to a lot of people and a lot of industries for quite a while!
As I said, Merry Christmas!
The picture of the killer is gone from Fox News now.
Just read that the shooter may have had this guys identification. Bizarre if true.
Piers Morgan seems to have ID the wrong guy right after he tweeted a a shout out for #guncontrol
garage: "Just read that the shooter may have had this guys identification. Bizarre if true."
Just saw that too.
Very weird.
Bam looks like hell.
chikelit: "Piers Morgan seems to have ID the wrong guy right after he tweeted a a shout out for #guncontrol"
Maybe we need "twitter control" to avoid falsely labeling people.
Websites of the local papers have pictures of the dead kids' classmates right up front and center. Pure class.
The first knee-jerk instinct of the liberal is to ban all handguns.
garage: "Bam looks like hell."
After a federal government single month spending spree (November)resulting in a $172B deficit for that month ALONE, you would look tired too....
Gun control didn't stop the Dublane Massacre.
I am sure there will be the usual calls for gun control; and this happenned in CT with possible ties to NJ, both states with stringent control "laws"--but if anyone thinks more stringent gun control will keep guns out of the hands that criminals and crazies who want to use them, those folks are seriously deluded.
Can we blame Obama for this? It happened under his watch after all.
I think it’s way too early to be making political comments over this terrible incident. Most early news reports are wrong, especially in a horrible story involving many senseless deaths. It’ll be days before we know enough to even begin having informed opinions. We simply don’t know enough about the shooter, his motivations (not that there could be anything that justifies what he did) or what happened other than a lot of innocent people have been murdered. This is likely a good time to invoke the 48 hour rule.
I can only express horror at what happened. Let the political whores attempt to score points over everything that happens in the world, good or bad. I don’t want to lower myself to that level. If anyone attempts to say that those people – especially the children - were “in the wrong place at the wrong time”, he or she deserves to be punched repeatedly in the face.
If there is a hell, I hope this shooter is in an especially unpleasant corner of it right now. He got off way too easy by (reportedly) killing himself. But then, that report could well be wrong, too.
In Israel THE TEACHERS ARE ARMED!
Google it. It's not true.
but if anyone thinks more stringent gun control will keep guns out of the hands that criminals and crazies who want to use them, those folks are seriously deluded.
It can be done - but you'd need a totalitarian state to enforce it. The first thing you'd do is mandate everyone register their existing guns. It helps the government to know who own a gun so they can later be put in a concentration camp.
I don't know why I pulled it up, but it's very sad to browse the principal's Twitter feed. Wishing they could all be going about business as usual, like rehearsing for their winter concert and choosing which IPad apps are the best for the classrooms.
The issue is not guns, IMO, it is a medical issue: insanity--and what can be done to institutionalize insane people to protect society.
I can only express horror at what happened.
Will you be expressing horror at every shooting to the end of time? At a certain point I just tuned it all out...
The issue is not guns, IMO, it is a medical issue: insanity--and what can be done to institutionalize insane people to protect society.
Unless you have precogs who can tell you who the insane people are there are only 2 choices:
1. You accept freedom to own guns will mean a few massacres per year.
2. You institute a totalitarian state and only the state will mass murder people.
Alex said...
I can only express horror at what happened.
Will you be expressing horror at every shooting to the end of time? At a certain point I just tuned it all out...
Every single shooting? No. Some shootings are justified such as self-defense. Mass murder of children? Yeah, I'm horrified by that. I hope I never get too jaded at life to stop being horrified by that.
It seems quite likely to me that displaying this as "human behavior," that others who would never have thought of it think "hey, that's human behavior, I can do that."
The health of the society has never been a concern for the media. You have that fat Bitch Rosie O'Donnell telling millions the twin towers was an inside job because "Steel doesn't melt."
And you have the press pushing out stupid ideas like "videos started middle east protests in Libya." And you have all these shows depicting the worse behavior of human beings on shows like Oprah, Jerry Springer, so the whole country can say "I'm not so bad."
What ever happened to the Waltons? I guess normal family shows are no longer allowed. It's not fair, you see, and society has to suffer for it.
phx: "Google it. It's not true."
I don't know if it's true for all israeli schools that teachers are armed, but what is true is that there are armed guards/counselors/police/protectors or whatever you want to call them for every school.
The israeli's have learned the hard way that liberal philosophy doesn't hold up in the real world (as least in matters military and security).
I nominate Alex for the 2012 Althouse Moby Alert Award.
Alex--I take your point, and as libertarian I would have serious problems with precogs as well. A determined miscreant can find sufficient weapons to kill a great number of people irrespective of the degree of state control; eg, the crazy with the knife in china which is hardly a non-totalitarian state. The sad fact is, I fear, that these events are going to happen.
Roger J.: "...and what can be done to institutionalize insane people to protect society."
Roger, as you well know, that battle was fought and won by the left (and lost by the rest of us) in the courts in the late 1970's.
The deinstitutionalizing of the mentally disabled occurred at precisely the "right time" for the left as they laid the results for it at Reagan's feet.
Simply go read what Ed Koch had to say about it at the time.
He was the age for schizophrenic break with reality to show up. And he seems to have been reenacting the video games available today.
The CNN feeds show literally a hundred armed men roving about seeking to protect the children. So where were they when the schizophrenic guy attacked the school? Just one of them inside the school would probably have ended this in time to let the kindergarten kids go home alive.
I think it is okay to show faces of the children. I don't think that there are people who naturally want to kill kids for no reason. If the confused people who wonder whether they might naturally want to kill children for no reason see the faces of the children, it might get them more in touch with their inner selves, which presumably do not want to kill children.
There are sexual predators and the like who at least when they have no prospects probably have a natural tendency to try to dominate children with violence, and such people can tend at times to like to make themselves look dreadfully scary and dangerous, which hype can at times confuse them into believing they want evil for evil's sake (as opposed to just selfishness) and so it is important that the media by covering the story not merely transmit the lying hype that such a killer often has surrounded himself with.
The Holocaust Museum in D.C. is an effective museum even though a large part of it just documents the atrocities committed. I remember before having gone there being sceptical whether it could present the Nazi propaganda without propagating it, but having gone there, I definitely think it is a beneficial place. That would be a good place to visit in order to ponder how evil should best be covered by journalists, etc.
TraditionalGuy: "Just one of them inside the school would probably have ended this in time to let the kindergarten kids go home alive."
That is a most inconvenient observation in todays political environment.
Drago--and yes, I well know--IIRC it was that paragon of reporting, 60 minutes, that "exposed" the situation at Brookhaven on Long Island. The result of the "outrage" was to deinstitutionalize seriously mentally ill people, and put them on the street where they remain today.
Roger J: "The result of the "outrage" was to deinstitutionalize seriously mentally ill people, and put them on the street where they remain today."
Exercising their "alternative lifestyle choice" in the vernacular of their left-wing "liberators"....
Interesting press coverage was a big influence re: Vietnam War protest, which in turn led to LBJ deciding not to seek re-election.
And mass media is high tech 24/7 today and yet the useless Afghan War rages on.
Of course, there was a little thing called the military draft back in the '60s.
Indeed, most Americans become quickly detached from the latest breaking news and quickly move on to the next "big" story.
Also interesting Bush was running (2) wars and yet did not call for any sacrifice. In fact, he lowered everyone's taxes.
Bottom line, Americans will never sacrifice their guns as most Americans love their guns!
and so it goes ...
I think perhaps Israeli teachers are ahead of us, maybe we should arm US teachers, make them wear their guns in holsters on their body at all times while in the school.
If we are going to continue to live in a society proliferated with guns, this may be what we need to do, arm the caretakers of the innocents.
Shiloh--how you got from your starting assertion to your ending conclusion will live for ever as the exemplar of nonsequitur. Well done, son. you will keep logic instructors in examples for a long time. Well done
Just one of them inside the school would probably have ended this in time to let the kindergarten kids go home alive.
My kids go to school in an excellent, in-demand district that's a smaller subset of a medium-sized Texas city. Their district, which normally charges a transfer fee for kids who are zoned for the larger [shitty] city district, has worked out a deal with the city PD wherein an officer can work one day a month and receive a transfer fee waiver for his kids. So every day there is a uniformed, armed city cop in each school in the district. They usually hang out in the lobby of the school on the PD laptop, doing paperwork or whatever, flirting with secretaries, teasing the kids. All other entrances to the school are locked from the outside and anyone wishing to enter the school has to walk past this cop and sign in/state business at the front desk. It might be theater, but it sure makes me feel like my kids are safer.
*sorry, locked to the outside
So RJ didn't like my "media coverage" segue lol.
Here's another segue re: RJ's logic ...
Roger J. said...
I agree with my old friend Drill--Romney is going to win big. Here's my rationale(s): Historical data--no president has won with an approval rate less than 50% and Obama's continues to go down; Second, to quote the worlds ugliest man (apologies to keith richards) James Carville: its the economy. Third, while national polls MAY not be accurate for individual states, they reflect larger voter sentiment, and in the end, I think, individual state's election results will more closely reflect national polling than not.
At any rate, we were asked what we thought, and I provided my rationale for why I thought like I did.
And, of course, this condundrum will be revealed to us in the wee small hours of November 7 (9 days hence).
10/29/12 10:24 AM
Well done, son. Weel done.
Wow: Shilho equates being wrong about 2012 election predictions with logical fallacy.
I wonder what Shilho thought about Nate Silver after the 21010 shellacking.
/rhetorical
Inga,
In Israel guns are actually quite rigidly controlled. Not all that many are allowed to carry guns unless they are in the military.
But the terrorist try all kinds of tricks to get access to an Israelite. ANY Israelite, and murder them.
[amended]
Wow: Shilho equates being wrong about 2012 election predictions with logical fallacy.
I wonder what Shilho thought about Nate Silver after the 2010 shellacking.
/rhetorical
On the bright side, I rest assured in knowing that any and all tragedy quickly can be turned into: "How does this help my political party?"
Thanks for rubbing salt in the wounds.
Shiloh: LOL--you obviously like me--you really do! I am so flattered that you would take the time to dredge thru old postings to resurrect my political prognostications, which in the event, were proved wrong by the election. I simply accept the fact that I was wrong.
You, however, have to accept the fact that you fail logic. I addressed the logical structure of your argument which will remain an example for us all in non sequitur--Anyway, son--blessings and best wishes for a wonderful holiday season.
shitoh said...
Tons of bullshit
and so it goes ...
As Instapundit quoted William S. Burroughs once said, “After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn’t do it.”
Our mental health professionals and professions need to start taking a long, hard look at themselves and their policy positions. Maybe we need more restrictive approaches to potentially violent mental illnesses.
hmm, is chicky deflecting from RJ's erroneous 2012 logic to Nate Silver's mostly accurate 2010 prediction/forecast a non sequitur? Rhetorical.
phx said...
In Israel THE TEACHERS ARE ARMED!
Google it. It's not true.
I did...
http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2008/01/armed-teachers-stop-terrorist-attack-in.html
http://www.volokh.com/posts/1160116581.shtml
http://www.jewishindy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=11098
See they ARE armed. Not all of them but many are.
Roger J and Erika are right about security in school. It would also be a better use of resources than the war on pot.
As someone who used to make decisions on what images to use in television news coverage, let me tackle the second question Prof. Althouse raises: yes, it is wrong to use the photos of terrified children.
Is there a handbook for that? Yes, it's the unwritten handbook of basic fucking human decency. You carry it around in your head.
You'll laugh at me, but I used to ask myself a question: What would Tom Brokaw do? Because he was someone I admired; someone I wanted to be like, and he was a fellow Midwesterner...I figured if he wouldn't do it, I shouldn't. (This was long before the WWJD bracelet thing, mind you, so please don't think I thought Brokaw was News Jesus--but I thought he was close : )
Unfortunately, the internal handbook my generation used has been heavily revised in just the ten years since I left network TV news, and now we see video of bloody corpses and dead Palestinian children (because, it should be noted, propagandists want us to see those photos and find the media only too compliant) and now this.
Sometimes I think: maybe TV news didn't take a sharp southward turn and dive straight into the crapper right about the time I decided to leave the industry; maybe it's just me; maybe I got old. Then I see this and realize: no, it's not me.
"Our mental health professionals and professions need to start taking a long, hard look at themselves and their policy positions. Maybe we need more restrictive approaches to potentially violent mental illnesses."
TRUE!! We have let quite alot of people out of asylums due to the terrible things done in them in the 1950s (Lobotomies being just one.)
The laws on committing insane people do need to be looked into.
RJ, during my one month ((( well deserved ))) :) vacation from Althouse before the election, I occasionally peaked in to see what nonsense Althouse con lemmings were spewing.
Of course, there were too many to document. :-P My apologies to the fools I might have missed.
blessings
Sorry, Shiloh--I dont engage in pig wrestling--my political prognostication was wrong; your exercise in logic with respect to media coverage will forever be a remarkable example of non-sequiture.
during my one month ((( well deserved ))) :) vacation
You deserve even more.
"My kids go to school in an excellent, in-demand district that's a smaller subset of a medium-sized Texas city. Their district, which normally charges a transfer fee for kids who are zoned for the larger [shitty] city district, has worked out a deal with the city PD wherein an officer can work one day a month and receive a transfer fee waiver for his kids. So every day there is a uniformed, armed city cop in each school in the district. They usually hang out in the lobby of the school on the PD laptop, doing paperwork or whatever, flirting with secretaries, teasing the kids. All other entrances to the school are locked from the outside and anyone wishing to enter the school has to walk past this cop and sign in/state business at the front desk. It might be theater, but it sure makes me feel like my kids are safer."
When I was a kid in school we didn't have any police on campus and the doors were unlocked and nothing happened and no one was worried about anything happening. There are schools like that all over the world to this day. But I guess America's growing too sick for that. Sometimes the SWAT team puts schools around here in lockdown, and that's considered normal nowadays. A sixth grader was found with a gun at school in a Cleveland suburb yesterday. I don't have any solutions to any of this. I don't know how to fix a society that seems to get sicker and sicker. The schools need all sorts of security and we're a country with the most prisoners in the whole world (both in total number and in proportion to the population). At some point it might be time to abandon a sinking ship. Much of my family lives in Sweden and life in pretty good there, and they sometimes tell me I should move. When they see the slums we've got here in Cleveland they can't believe their eyes. And I see people all the time in America who are on edge and seem like they could snap at any time.
leslyn said...
Clyde said,
Are they just losers in today's economy who can't get a job?
Paraphrasing Tom Boyce, I would like to point out that millions [are there that many?] of 20-somethings that don't have a job didn't kill anybody today.
True. But it's a documented fact that things like domestic violence increase in hard economic times. It's not surprising that there would be an increase in psychotics snapping and going on shooting sprees under stress from joblessness and poor economic prospects. You see a lot less of it when the economy is good. Given who is running our country, I expect to see more incidents like the ones that have happened this week as people reach their breaking points and decide to go out in a blaze of infamy.
Apparently it was a family vengence thing. Most of the children, and the killer's mother, were killed in HER classroom. If so, nothing would have worked (certainly the "gun-free school zone" laws didn't make a bit of difference.
We know what does stop the killing.
The murdering has stopped in every mass shooting incident from Charles Whitman in 1966 to the present as soon as the FIRST counterfire occurs, whether by civilians or police. The FIRST return shot, ends the murders. The killer now must deal with the incoming fire.
It is insane for sane people to try to assign reasoned rational thought to pure unmitigated evil. There is no reason, there is no message, there is only sadistic hatred. He wanted to make those children suffer and he wanted to make their parents suffer and he wanted to bring as much pain to as many people as he possibly could. Evil.
When I went to high school in West Texas, every boy carried a 3-4 inch "pocket knife" and 80% of the cars in the parking lot had guns and ammunition in the trunk (or behind the seat in the puck-ups). We were awash in weaponry but no one got stabbed or shot. No one.
It's the people, not the things which make bad choices.
Our mental health professionals and professions need to start taking a long, hard look at themselves and their policy positions. Maybe we need more restrictive approaches to potentially violent mental illnesses.
So in order to maintain unlimited access to guns you want to lock up anyone who may be a hazard to others.
RJ, forever is a longgg time, but as long as I remain in your memory forever, it's all good.
And don't be depressed about your foolish 2012 presidential prediction as you were in the "majority" :) as regards to Althouse con logic er lack thereof.
"You deserve even more."
We agree!
And furthermore, last week a bunch of Cleveland cops unloaded 137 bullets into 2 unarmed suspects. Some of the cops reloaded to pump more lead into them. Then the head of their union praised the on TV, calling it a "good shooting". Sick fucking America.
Freder Frederson said...
So in order to maintain unlimited access to guns you want to lock up anyone who may be a hazard to others.
Freder, GUN CONTROL LAWS DO NOT WORK!!
They only disarm law-abiding citizens, leaving them easy pickings for armed criminals who would then know that they could invade and rob homes with impunity (perhaps raping and killing the residents as well). Look at how well draconian gun control laws have reduced crime in places like Chicago and the U.K. Oh, wait, THEY HAVEN'T!!
It might be theater, but it sure makes me feel like my kids are safer.
My kid's high school has all locked doors now, too, and I think it is theater. A person who wants to do harm will find a way in.
It's the TSA of High School, suggested by lawyers. We tried to keep the shooter out!.
I question whether this would work if a Teacher's kid came to the school and asked to see his or her parent because it was important.
You cannot be safe 100% of the time, and it's not worth trying to do so.
Freder Frederson,
Yes.
If they are a danger to society, yes, lock them up till a doctor says they are not a danger.
Strange how gun control advocates want those who own guns to have a mental examination but don't want insane people institutionalized.
I'd rather the rights of the insane be infringed than the rights of 300 million citizens who don't go around killing children.
If you can't take the guns out of society, then take the insane out of society.
Oh and BTW gang,
When I was in High School here in Texas the electician teacher traded his Browinging .25 auto for my H&R .22 revolver (he could not find a magazine for his .25.)
We traded in the school parking lot. Back then, 1970, the idea of mass shootings just, well, were not there, guns were easy to get, AND insane people were locked up. Yet no mass shootings!
maintain unlimited access to guns
Neither CT nor NJ has such a thing.
If liberals were truly serious about guns, they would outlaw the private sale of ammunition. From now on you can only buy ammunition from government-run stores and they will keep track of your every purchase and limit the quantity you can buy.
The kids were armed with I was in school.
Rifle club.
We'd have to go to our lockers to get the guns, though, in an emergency.
We were set if attacked on the bus, however.
Alex said...
If liberals were truly serious about guns, they would outlaw the private sale of ammunition. From now on you can only buy ammunition from government-run stores and they will keep track of your every purchase and limit the quantity you can buy.
I suppose you've never heard of home reloading, huh?
Put the ban of smokeless powders! Lead! Brass!
The thing that women have to take account of is that their interests make them dangerous citizens, once they have to vote.
They have to learn to spot the tendency in themselves and suppress it when it turns political.
Otherwise they can't be taken seriously as citizens.
Why don't we all just be still for a while? Light a candle, say a prayer, tell you loved ones that you love them.
The cops have his 24 year old brother in custody. Wonder what that's about.
I suppose you've never heard of home reloading, huh?
Also I would ban all guns & ammo sales to men between the ages of 18-30.
Why don't we all just be still for a while? Light a candle, say a prayer, tell you loved ones that you love them.
Why don't you take your New Age bullshit elsewhere pops?
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